…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
PAD
319 comments on “And somewhere at this very moment…”
Do you find all these movies and TV shows offensive toward Italians?
Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Yes. I do, actually.
And I know plenty of Italians who like Italian jokes, Polish who like Polish jokes, Catholics who like Catholic jokes, etc. That’s because I tend to associate with people who don’t wear their indignation on their sleeves.
PAD
Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Yes. I do, actually.
And I know plenty of Italians who like Italian jokes, Polish who like Polish jokes, Catholics who like Catholic jokes, etc. That’s because I tend to associate with people who don’t wear their indignation on their sleeves.
PAD
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
They’re all movies about mobsters. Nor was the original comment equating the Mafia with Italians. You did that all by yourself.
There’s two issues:
1) Whether my initial comment equated Italians with gangsters. It didn’t.
2) Your insistence that there is a connection between Italians and mobsters. I listed the various films–most of which were very popular, very successful and generally well-regarded (except for GF III, admittedly)–to indicate that if there IS such a connection, it’s already so firmly entrenched in pop culture that a passing comment by me, which did not in fact mention Italians (see point 1) perpetuated nothing except some peoples’ need to take offense where none was presented.
Oh, and thanks for the private e-mail calling me a dìçk. I’ll be deleting your future mails unread.
PAD
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
They’re all movies about mobsters. Nor was the original comment equating the Mafia with Italians. You did that all by yourself.
There’s two issues:
1) Whether my initial comment equated Italians with gangsters. It didn’t.
2) Your insistence that there is a connection between Italians and mobsters. I listed the various films–most of which were very popular, very successful and generally well-regarded (except for GF III, admittedly)–to indicate that if there IS such a connection, it’s already so firmly entrenched in pop culture that a passing comment by me, which did not in fact mention Italians (see point 1) perpetuated nothing except some peoples’ need to take offense where none was presented.
Oh, and thanks for the private e-mail calling me a dìçk. I’ll be deleting your future mails unread.
PAD
Let’s talk about it this way, since it seems to have hijacked the thread and there was a belief that I would somehow shrink from defending my earlier statements.
One reason I make an issue of it so strongly, is because the individual who wrote it traffics in words and words are powerful things.
Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.
Now, I say something about it and I get the indignant response: Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was this close to dying off.
So, there is an acknowledgement a stereotype exists, but what? It’s okay? Is this a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing? Well, I’m being a dìçk but it’s okay because who really cares? I mean you’re being oversensitive!
If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
In regard to what Micha said, you know it’s a problem…
On the one hand I can watch the Sopranos and like it. It bothers me though, just as any of those other movies do, because they are perpetuating the stereotype and it is detrimental. People in this country don’t readily identify Madonna or Jay Leno as Italian even though they are.
I read a column the other day on the occasion of Columbus Day the subject being the top five ‘Italian’ characters in comics and not surprisingly most of the origin stories or back-stories were wrapped up in and around ‘Mafia’ (organized crime) story elements.
Somehow, I’m accused of not having a sense of humor because a comment like that bothers me. It has nothing to do with indignation being carried around on my sleeve as much as it does calling it for what it is.
It’s not any more appealing than a host of other stereotypes that are thrown around. As far as the people laughing, I laugh too sometimes to be polite when someone says something stupid of only not to embarrass them.
Let’s talk about it this way, since it seems to have hijacked the thread and there was a belief that I would somehow shrink from defending my earlier statements.
One reason I make an issue of it so strongly, is because the individual who wrote it traffics in words and words are powerful things.
Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.
Now, I say something about it and I get the indignant response: Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was this close to dying off.
So, there is an acknowledgement a stereotype exists, but what? It’s okay? Is this a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing? Well, I’m being a dìçk but it’s okay because who really cares? I mean you’re being oversensitive!
If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
In regard to what Micha said, you know it’s a problem…
On the one hand I can watch the Sopranos and like it. It bothers me though, just as any of those other movies do, because they are perpetuating the stereotype and it is detrimental. People in this country don’t readily identify Madonna or Jay Leno as Italian even though they are.
I read a column the other day on the occasion of Columbus Day the subject being the top five ‘Italian’ characters in comics and not surprisingly most of the origin stories or back-stories were wrapped up in and around ‘Mafia’ (organized crime) story elements.
Somehow, I’m accused of not having a sense of humor because a comment like that bothers me. It has nothing to do with indignation being carried around on my sleeve as much as it does calling it for what it is.
It’s not any more appealing than a host of other stereotypes that are thrown around. As far as the people laughing, I laugh too sometimes to be polite when someone says something stupid of only not to embarrass them.
Oversensitive, I like that.
Need a mirror?
Oversensitive, I like that.
Need a mirror?
So, as long as we are clear, you find any reference to organized crime as an inherent slight against Italians?
I say–shame on you sir! You neglect the great contributions made by other ethnic groups to our proud tradition of criminal scum. The Irish, for eample–The Winter Hill Gang, Edward “Punchy” McLaughlin, Dennis “Dinny” Meehan, Richard “Peg Leg” Lonergan, Albert “Mad Hatter” Anastasia, Edward “Eddie The Butcher” Cummiskey, Terry “Machine Gun” Druggan, George Horace “Kid” McCoy, etc etc.
But it’s true that the Irish mob is completely unrepresented in popular culture, once you forget about such movies as The Public Enemy, Angels with Dirty Faces, Prime Cut, The Sting, Miller’s Crossing, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, The Departed and a bunch of others. Not to mention The Black Donnellys and Brotherhood on TV.
There’s also the kosher nostra, populated by such colorful men as Max “Kid Twist” Zwerbach, “Big” Jack Zelig, Vach “Cyclone Louie” Lewis,harles “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky, “Dopey” Benny Fein,”The Greaser” Rosenzweig, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Louis “Lepke” Buchalter, Joseph “Doc” Stacher, Hyman “Curly” Holtz, Louis “Shadows” Kravitz, Harry Tietlebaum, Philip “Little Farvel” Kovolick and Harry “Big Greenie” Greenberg.
And I don’t know how February passed without mention of those African American pioneers such as Stephanie St. Clair, Leroy “Nicky” Barnes, Dwayne “Wonderful Wayne” Davis, Demetrius “Big Meech” Flenory, Bumpy Johnson and many others who overcame anti-black bigotry to rise among the ranks of our nations criminal elite.
But some folks see “Joe the Plumber” and automatically think Italian. Shameful.
So, as long as we are clear, you find any reference to organized crime as an inherent slight against Italians?
I say–shame on you sir! You neglect the great contributions made by other ethnic groups to our proud tradition of criminal scum. The Irish, for eample–The Winter Hill Gang, Edward “Punchy” McLaughlin, Dennis “Dinny” Meehan, Richard “Peg Leg” Lonergan, Albert “Mad Hatter” Anastasia, Edward “Eddie The Butcher” Cummiskey, Terry “Machine Gun” Druggan, George Horace “Kid” McCoy, etc etc.
But it’s true that the Irish mob is completely unrepresented in popular culture, once you forget about such movies as The Public Enemy, Angels with Dirty Faces, Prime Cut, The Sting, Miller’s Crossing, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, The Departed and a bunch of others. Not to mention The Black Donnellys and Brotherhood on TV.
There’s also the kosher nostra, populated by such colorful men as Max “Kid Twist” Zwerbach, “Big” Jack Zelig, Vach “Cyclone Louie” Lewis,harles “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky, “Dopey” Benny Fein,”The Greaser” Rosenzweig, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Louis “Lepke” Buchalter, Joseph “Doc” Stacher, Hyman “Curly” Holtz, Louis “Shadows” Kravitz, Harry Tietlebaum, Philip “Little Farvel” Kovolick and Harry “Big Greenie” Greenberg.
And I don’t know how February passed without mention of those African American pioneers such as Stephanie St. Clair, Leroy “Nicky” Barnes, Dwayne “Wonderful Wayne” Davis, Demetrius “Big Meech” Flenory, Bumpy Johnson and many others who overcame anti-black bigotry to rise among the ranks of our nations criminal elite.
But some folks see “Joe the Plumber” and automatically think Italian. Shameful.
Oh, you mean this email?
That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint.
It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too.
Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Oh, you mean this email?
That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint.
It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too.
Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.
I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Sounds pretty much the same to me. Hitman/wiseguy what’s the difference? If “wiseguy” is supposed to immediately mean Italian I guess I missed it.
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
Sure does–you specified an ethnic group. PAD did not. So…there you go.
And since Russians can be wiseguys I guess it really isn’t a specifically Italian term, right?
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Sounds pretty much the same to me. Hitman/wiseguy what’s the difference? If “wiseguy” is supposed to immediately mean Italian I guess I missed it.
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
Sure does–you specified an ethnic group. PAD did not. So…there you go.
And since Russians can be wiseguys I guess it really isn’t a specifically Italian term, right?
Gosh Bill!
Thanks, it’s so clear to me now!
There you go!
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Patience, grasshopper. That post wasn’t there when I wrote that first reply. You know, it takes a while to look up people like “Dopey” Benny Fein and “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Patience, grasshopper. That post wasn’t there when I wrote that first reply. You know, it takes a while to look up people like “Dopey” Benny Fein and “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky.
The question is: are you going to throw away great movies like godfather and TV shows like the Sopranos because apparently a large number of people seem to think that these shows depict the way all Italians are, despite the fact that any intelligent person should realize that they depict only a a very specific kind of Italians?
The question is: are you going to throw away great movies like godfather and TV shows like the Sopranos because apparently a large number of people seem to think that these shows depict the way all Italians are, despite the fact that any intelligent person should realize that they depict only a a very specific kind of Italians?
“I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.”
Some might see “Rabbi” a a Jewish reference. and they would be correct, since Rabbis are usually Jewish. Yet this does not imply that all Jews are Rabbis, nor should it be taken as such.
“I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.”
Some might see “Rabbi” a a Jewish reference. and they would be correct, since Rabbis are usually Jewish. Yet this does not imply that all Jews are Rabbis, nor should it be taken as such.
LOL! Thank you Bill for alleviating some of the seriousness and yes it does take a lot of time to look that stuff up.
Micha, I don’t know if throwing away those movies is the answer. They’re out there, it’s like putting the genie back in the bottle.
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
This has more to do with popular perception and trying to change that.
The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.
If you turn the discussion on its ear you have the same kind of issues playing out in the Preseidential election. A very subtle bias that though it isn’t overt still is insidious.
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
PAD
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
PAD
“The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.”
Look, I can understand an Italian watching the Godfather or Sopranos and saying to himself, I wish there were other images of Italians on TV, or feel sometimes fed up with seeing that kind of image. But if that Italian was the head of HBO and he decided not to air the Sopranos, I would call him an idiot, because it is a masterpiece. I wouldn’t give up that show even if there are people stupid enough to assume all Italians are like that (something the show itself made clear is not true).
Now the term ‘wiseguy’ refers to a kind of criminal that is often but not always Italian-American and which is a mahor part of American pop culture. Now, do you think when PAD was using it he was refering to all Italians and not just that specific kind of criminal? Do you think anybody on this board thinks that he was refering to all Italians? Do you think he should have refrained from using such a commonplace term just because there are people who can’t make the difference? I think that would be absurd. The meaning is clear, the intention is clear. The term is commonplace. And it is not the only image of italians in popular culture today anyway. So if there are stupid people, deal with them.
“The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.”
Look, I can understand an Italian watching the Godfather or Sopranos and saying to himself, I wish there were other images of Italians on TV, or feel sometimes fed up with seeing that kind of image. But if that Italian was the head of HBO and he decided not to air the Sopranos, I would call him an idiot, because it is a masterpiece. I wouldn’t give up that show even if there are people stupid enough to assume all Italians are like that (something the show itself made clear is not true).
Now the term ‘wiseguy’ refers to a kind of criminal that is often but not always Italian-American and which is a mahor part of American pop culture. Now, do you think when PAD was using it he was refering to all Italians and not just that specific kind of criminal? Do you think anybody on this board thinks that he was refering to all Italians? Do you think he should have refrained from using such a commonplace term just because there are people who can’t make the difference? I think that would be absurd. The meaning is clear, the intention is clear. The term is commonplace. And it is not the only image of italians in popular culture today anyway. So if there are stupid people, deal with them.
I’m of Italian descent, and I think you’re totally overeacting, mister_pj. Jeez, PAD only used the word “wiseguy.” Is that a crime?
I never liked this PC thing of banishing words. I’m gay too by the way, and I think it’s very hypocritical for gays to want to erase the words queer and fág when lots of us gays call each other that.
And just as an interesting anecdote, by father is very proud of his Italian descent, and he always loved Mafia movies and novels. According to him, it makes Italians look cool and tough.
But I dunno, we live in Brazil. Did you ever find people treating you differently in the US because of your Italian descent? It doesn’t happen here.
I’m of Italian descent, and I think you’re totally overeacting, mister_pj. Jeez, PAD only used the word “wiseguy.” Is that a crime?
I never liked this PC thing of banishing words. I’m gay too by the way, and I think it’s very hypocritical for gays to want to erase the words queer and fág when lots of us gays call each other that.
And just as an interesting anecdote, by father is very proud of his Italian descent, and he always loved Mafia movies and novels. According to him, it makes Italians look cool and tough.
But I dunno, we live in Brazil. Did you ever find people treating you differently in the US because of your Italian descent? It doesn’t happen here.
As a first-generation Italian-American, one who has nothing but contempt for the mob, and is flabbergasted by the success of utter garbage like The Sopranos, I did not see Peter’s comment as having anything to do so much with Italians as it did with the Mafia. Not exactly the same thing. The only person who insisted on an ethnic dimension to the comment was you, pj.
mister_pj: No, by all means keep perpetuating a stereotype and go a step further by acting indignant when you’re called on it. It speaks volumes.
Luigi Novi: If he doesn’t believe he’s perpetuating a stereotype, then how is it “indignant” for him to disagree with you?
mister pj: All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namibians?
Luigi Novi: He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
mister pj: Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Luigi Novi: In addition to the response Peter gave on this point, it should be pointed out that he has written that Kat Mueller in New Frontier suffers from her “German temper”.
mister pj: Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Luigi Novi: Because Mafia wiseguys, are stereotypically known to have colorful nicknames. Hitmen, who generally work with greater anonymity, do not. Nor to the same extent do the Yakuza or other ethnic mafias.
mister pj: Oh, you mean this email? That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint. It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too. Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Luigi Novi: If you’re attempting to engage someone in an intelligent discussion, or criticism, and want to present yourself as being able to illustrate a coherent point of view in an intelligent, civil manner, then yes, calling someone a “dìçk”, when they don’t share your point of view, doesn’t exactly show you to be capable of doing this.
As a first-generation Italian-American, one who has nothing but contempt for the mob, and is flabbergasted by the success of utter garbage like The Sopranos, I did not see Peter’s comment as having anything to do so much with Italians as it did with the Mafia. Not exactly the same thing. The only person who insisted on an ethnic dimension to the comment was you, pj.
mister_pj: No, by all means keep perpetuating a stereotype and go a step further by acting indignant when you’re called on it. It speaks volumes.
Luigi Novi: If he doesn’t believe he’s perpetuating a stereotype, then how is it “indignant” for him to disagree with you?
mister pj: All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namibians?
Luigi Novi: He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
mister pj: Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Luigi Novi: In addition to the response Peter gave on this point, it should be pointed out that he has written that Kat Mueller in New Frontier suffers from her “German temper”.
mister pj: Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Luigi Novi: Because Mafia wiseguys, are stereotypically known to have colorful nicknames. Hitmen, who generally work with greater anonymity, do not. Nor to the same extent do the Yakuza or other ethnic mafias.
mister pj: Oh, you mean this email? That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint. It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too. Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Luigi Novi: If you’re attempting to engage someone in an intelligent discussion, or criticism, and want to present yourself as being able to illustrate a coherent point of view in an intelligent, civil manner, then yes, calling someone a “dìçk”, when they don’t share your point of view, doesn’t exactly show you to be capable of doing this.
(“Mafia wiseguy” vs. “hitman”)
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Well, “why not” doesn’t apply to me, because it pretty much calls up the same image to me.
I don’t really have a dog in this particular fight, but I saw nothing in PAD’s initial statement as any sort of slur or stereotype about Italians.
(“Mafia wiseguy” vs. “hitman”)
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Well, “why not” doesn’t apply to me, because it pretty much calls up the same image to me.
I don’t really have a dog in this particular fight, but I saw nothing in PAD’s initial statement as any sort of slur or stereotype about Italians.
Master PJ,
Chill the f out already.
Jesus, dude… Where to begin?
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement: …a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write: …a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement: …a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write: …a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
Oh, and everyone go check this link out. (Add http:// to the front. I got stuck in the spam filter again.)
pages.prodigy.net/mlemus/mobnamegenerator.htm
Master PJ,
Chill the f out already.
Jesus, dude… Where to begin?
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement: …a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write: …a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
Oh, and everyone go check this link out. (Add http:// to the front. I got stuck in the spam filter again.)
pages.prodigy.net/mlemus/mobnamegenerator.htm
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
Ouch, I am so mortally wounded. Oh! The pain! The pain!!!!
So, let me get this straight. If someone takes offense to something you write or say it’s their problem? They’re just stupid… that’s your inference right. Because there is absolutely no way the statement couldn’t be misread? And your justification in citing those movies doesn’t prove the point?
Okay, Peter. You’re right. Make you feel better?
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
Ouch, I am so mortally wounded. Oh! The pain! The pain!!!!
So, let me get this straight. If someone takes offense to something you write or say it’s their problem? They’re just stupid… that’s your inference right. Because there is absolutely no way the statement couldn’t be misread? And your justification in citing those movies doesn’t prove the point?
Okay, Peter. You’re right. Make you feel better?
My Mafia name is Jerry “The Jury-Tamperer” Chandler.
Hmmm… I might not want to let my Chief know that one.
My Mafia name is Jerry “The Jury-Tamperer” Chandler.
Hmmm… I might not want to let my Chief know that one.
Luigi, one question?
He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
This is what I read:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber”
This is what I wrote:
Thanks PAD for the Mafia reference, way to perpetuate a stereotype.
This is the response I got:
Right, right. Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was thisclose to dying off. And then I make a joke and suddenly it gains new life.
Please.
PAD
So, who is in the American Mafia?
Did I write the word Italian in there?
I got “Kids Incorporated”. What does that mean?
I got “Kids Incorporated”. What does that mean?
Jerry,
You wrote: Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
So I want to get this straight then, stuff like the Obama bucks and Fried Chicken is okay then too? Right?
Jerry,
You wrote: Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
So I want to get this straight then, stuff like the Obama bucks and Fried Chicken is okay then too? Right?
• 
Do you find all these movies and TV shows offensive toward Italians?
Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Yes. I do, actually.
And I know plenty of Italians who like Italian jokes, Polish who like Polish jokes, Catholics who like Catholic jokes, etc. That’s because I tend to associate with people who don’t wear their indignation on their sleeves.
PAD
Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Yes. I do, actually.
And I know plenty of Italians who like Italian jokes, Polish who like Polish jokes, Catholics who like Catholic jokes, etc. That’s because I tend to associate with people who don’t wear their indignation on their sleeves.
PAD
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
They’re all movies about mobsters. Nor was the original comment equating the Mafia with Italians. You did that all by yourself.
There’s two issues:
1) Whether my initial comment equated Italians with gangsters. It didn’t.
2) Your insistence that there is a connection between Italians and mobsters. I listed the various films–most of which were very popular, very successful and generally well-regarded (except for GF III, admittedly)–to indicate that if there IS such a connection, it’s already so firmly entrenched in pop culture that a passing comment by me, which did not in fact mention Italians (see point 1) perpetuated nothing except some peoples’ need to take offense where none was presented.
Oh, and thanks for the private e-mail calling me a dìçk. I’ll be deleting your future mails unread.
PAD
All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namabians?
They’re all movies about mobsters. Nor was the original comment equating the Mafia with Italians. You did that all by yourself.
There’s two issues:
1) Whether my initial comment equated Italians with gangsters. It didn’t.
2) Your insistence that there is a connection between Italians and mobsters. I listed the various films–most of which were very popular, very successful and generally well-regarded (except for GF III, admittedly)–to indicate that if there IS such a connection, it’s already so firmly entrenched in pop culture that a passing comment by me, which did not in fact mention Italians (see point 1) perpetuated nothing except some peoples’ need to take offense where none was presented.
Oh, and thanks for the private e-mail calling me a dìçk. I’ll be deleting your future mails unread.
PAD
Let’s talk about it this way, since it seems to have hijacked the thread and there was a belief that I would somehow shrink from defending my earlier statements.
One reason I make an issue of it so strongly, is because the individual who wrote it traffics in words and words are powerful things.
Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.
Now, I say something about it and I get the indignant response: Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was this close to dying off.
So, there is an acknowledgement a stereotype exists, but what? It’s okay? Is this a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing? Well, I’m being a dìçk but it’s okay because who really cares? I mean you’re being oversensitive!
If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
In regard to what Micha said, you know it’s a problem…
On the one hand I can watch the Sopranos and like it. It bothers me though, just as any of those other movies do, because they are perpetuating the stereotype and it is detrimental. People in this country don’t readily identify Madonna or Jay Leno as Italian even though they are.
I read a column the other day on the occasion of Columbus Day the subject being the top five ‘Italian’ characters in comics and not surprisingly most of the origin stories or back-stories were wrapped up in and around ‘Mafia’ (organized crime) story elements.
Somehow, I’m accused of not having a sense of humor because a comment like that bothers me. It has nothing to do with indignation being carried around on my sleeve as much as it does calling it for what it is.
It’s not any more appealing than a host of other stereotypes that are thrown around. As far as the people laughing, I laugh too sometimes to be polite when someone says something stupid of only not to embarrass them.
Let’s talk about it this way, since it seems to have hijacked the thread and there was a belief that I would somehow shrink from defending my earlier statements.
One reason I make an issue of it so strongly, is because the individual who wrote it traffics in words and words are powerful things.
Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.
Now, I say something about it and I get the indignant response: Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was this close to dying off.
So, there is an acknowledgement a stereotype exists, but what? It’s okay? Is this a kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing? Well, I’m being a dìçk but it’s okay because who really cares? I mean you’re being oversensitive!
If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
In regard to what Micha said, you know it’s a problem…
On the one hand I can watch the Sopranos and like it. It bothers me though, just as any of those other movies do, because they are perpetuating the stereotype and it is detrimental. People in this country don’t readily identify Madonna or Jay Leno as Italian even though they are.
I read a column the other day on the occasion of Columbus Day the subject being the top five ‘Italian’ characters in comics and not surprisingly most of the origin stories or back-stories were wrapped up in and around ‘Mafia’ (organized crime) story elements.
Somehow, I’m accused of not having a sense of humor because a comment like that bothers me. It has nothing to do with indignation being carried around on my sleeve as much as it does calling it for what it is.
It’s not any more appealing than a host of other stereotypes that are thrown around. As far as the people laughing, I laugh too sometimes to be polite when someone says something stupid of only not to embarrass them.
Oversensitive, I like that.
Need a mirror?
Oversensitive, I like that.
Need a mirror?
So, as long as we are clear, you find any reference to organized crime as an inherent slight against Italians?
I say–shame on you sir! You neglect the great contributions made by other ethnic groups to our proud tradition of criminal scum. The Irish, for eample–The Winter Hill Gang, Edward “Punchy” McLaughlin, Dennis “Dinny” Meehan, Richard “Peg Leg” Lonergan, Albert “Mad Hatter” Anastasia, Edward “Eddie The Butcher” Cummiskey, Terry “Machine Gun” Druggan, George Horace “Kid” McCoy, etc etc.
But it’s true that the Irish mob is completely unrepresented in popular culture, once you forget about such movies as The Public Enemy, Angels with Dirty Faces, Prime Cut, The Sting, Miller’s Crossing, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, The Departed and a bunch of others. Not to mention The Black Donnellys and Brotherhood on TV.
There’s also the kosher nostra, populated by such colorful men as Max “Kid Twist” Zwerbach, “Big” Jack Zelig, Vach “Cyclone Louie” Lewis,harles “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky, “Dopey” Benny Fein,”The Greaser” Rosenzweig, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Louis “Lepke” Buchalter, Joseph “Doc” Stacher, Hyman “Curly” Holtz, Louis “Shadows” Kravitz, Harry Tietlebaum, Philip “Little Farvel” Kovolick and Harry “Big Greenie” Greenberg.
And I don’t know how February passed without mention of those African American pioneers such as Stephanie St. Clair, Leroy “Nicky” Barnes, Dwayne “Wonderful Wayne” Davis, Demetrius “Big Meech” Flenory, Bumpy Johnson and many others who overcame anti-black bigotry to rise among the ranks of our nations criminal elite.
But some folks see “Joe the Plumber” and automatically think Italian. Shameful.
So, as long as we are clear, you find any reference to organized crime as an inherent slight against Italians?
I say–shame on you sir! You neglect the great contributions made by other ethnic groups to our proud tradition of criminal scum. The Irish, for eample–The Winter Hill Gang, Edward “Punchy” McLaughlin, Dennis “Dinny” Meehan, Richard “Peg Leg” Lonergan, Albert “Mad Hatter” Anastasia, Edward “Eddie The Butcher” Cummiskey, Terry “Machine Gun” Druggan, George Horace “Kid” McCoy, etc etc.
But it’s true that the Irish mob is completely unrepresented in popular culture, once you forget about such movies as The Public Enemy, Angels with Dirty Faces, Prime Cut, The Sting, Miller’s Crossing, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, The Departed and a bunch of others. Not to mention The Black Donnellys and Brotherhood on TV.
There’s also the kosher nostra, populated by such colorful men as Max “Kid Twist” Zwerbach, “Big” Jack Zelig, Vach “Cyclone Louie” Lewis,harles “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky, “Dopey” Benny Fein,”The Greaser” Rosenzweig, Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Louis “Lepke” Buchalter, Joseph “Doc” Stacher, Hyman “Curly” Holtz, Louis “Shadows” Kravitz, Harry Tietlebaum, Philip “Little Farvel” Kovolick and Harry “Big Greenie” Greenberg.
And I don’t know how February passed without mention of those African American pioneers such as Stephanie St. Clair, Leroy “Nicky” Barnes, Dwayne “Wonderful Wayne” Davis, Demetrius “Big Meech” Flenory, Bumpy Johnson and many others who overcame anti-black bigotry to rise among the ranks of our nations criminal elite.
But some folks see “Joe the Plumber” and automatically think Italian. Shameful.
Oh, you mean this email?
That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint.
It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too.
Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Oh, you mean this email?
That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint.
It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too.
Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.
I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Sounds pretty much the same to me. Hitman/wiseguy what’s the difference? If “wiseguy” is supposed to immediately mean Italian I guess I missed it.
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
Sure does–you specified an ethnic group. PAD did not. So…there you go.
And since Russians can be wiseguys I guess it really isn’t a specifically Italian term, right?
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Sounds pretty much the same to me. Hitman/wiseguy what’s the difference? If “wiseguy” is supposed to immediately mean Italian I guess I missed it.
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?
Sure does–you specified an ethnic group. PAD did not. So…there you go.
And since Russians can be wiseguys I guess it really isn’t a specifically Italian term, right?
Gosh Bill!
Thanks, it’s so clear to me now!
There you go!
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Patience, grasshopper. That post wasn’t there when I wrote that first reply. You know, it takes a while to look up people like “Dopey” Benny Fein and “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky.
Bill, you’re kind of not answering what I wrote right above your post.
Patience, grasshopper. That post wasn’t there when I wrote that first reply. You know, it takes a while to look up people like “Dopey” Benny Fein and “Charlie the Cripple” Litoffsky.
The question is: are you going to throw away great movies like godfather and TV shows like the Sopranos because apparently a large number of people seem to think that these shows depict the way all Italians are, despite the fact that any intelligent person should realize that they depict only a a very specific kind of Italians?
The question is: are you going to throw away great movies like godfather and TV shows like the Sopranos because apparently a large number of people seem to think that these shows depict the way all Italians are, despite the fact that any intelligent person should realize that they depict only a a very specific kind of Italians?
“I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.”
Some might see “Rabbi” a a Jewish reference. and they would be correct, since Rabbis are usually Jewish. Yet this does not imply that all Jews are Rabbis, nor should it be taken as such.
“I think some folks see Mafia wiseguy as an Italian reference.”
Some might see “Rabbi” a a Jewish reference. and they would be correct, since Rabbis are usually Jewish. Yet this does not imply that all Jews are Rabbis, nor should it be taken as such.
LOL! Thank you Bill for alleviating some of the seriousness and yes it does take a lot of time to look that stuff up.
Micha, I don’t know if throwing away those movies is the answer. They’re out there, it’s like putting the genie back in the bottle.
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
This has more to do with popular perception and trying to change that.
The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.
If you turn the discussion on its ear you have the same kind of issues playing out in the Preseidential election. A very subtle bias that though it isn’t overt still is insidious.
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
PAD
You’re right in the observation an intelligent person should be able to make the distinction, but I think that we then wind up into a much bigger discussion about the ratio of intelligent people against the total population.
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
PAD
“The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.”
Look, I can understand an Italian watching the Godfather or Sopranos and saying to himself, I wish there were other images of Italians on TV, or feel sometimes fed up with seeing that kind of image. But if that Italian was the head of HBO and he decided not to air the Sopranos, I would call him an idiot, because it is a masterpiece. I wouldn’t give up that show even if there are people stupid enough to assume all Italians are like that (something the show itself made clear is not true).
Now the term ‘wiseguy’ refers to a kind of criminal that is often but not always Italian-American and which is a mahor part of American pop culture. Now, do you think when PAD was using it he was refering to all Italians and not just that specific kind of criminal? Do you think anybody on this board thinks that he was refering to all Italians? Do you think he should have refrained from using such a commonplace term just because there are people who can’t make the difference? I think that would be absurd. The meaning is clear, the intention is clear. The term is commonplace. And it is not the only image of italians in popular culture today anyway. So if there are stupid people, deal with them.
“The thing I find interesting throughout in regard to this discussion, is how readily some aspects of it are dismissed. I don’t see many people saying ‘yeah, I could see how it comes across a certain way’ as much as a total denial.”
Look, I can understand an Italian watching the Godfather or Sopranos and saying to himself, I wish there were other images of Italians on TV, or feel sometimes fed up with seeing that kind of image. But if that Italian was the head of HBO and he decided not to air the Sopranos, I would call him an idiot, because it is a masterpiece. I wouldn’t give up that show even if there are people stupid enough to assume all Italians are like that (something the show itself made clear is not true).
Now the term ‘wiseguy’ refers to a kind of criminal that is often but not always Italian-American and which is a mahor part of American pop culture. Now, do you think when PAD was using it he was refering to all Italians and not just that specific kind of criminal? Do you think anybody on this board thinks that he was refering to all Italians? Do you think he should have refrained from using such a commonplace term just because there are people who can’t make the difference? I think that would be absurd. The meaning is clear, the intention is clear. The term is commonplace. And it is not the only image of italians in popular culture today anyway. So if there are stupid people, deal with them.
I’m of Italian descent, and I think you’re totally overeacting, mister_pj. Jeez, PAD only used the word “wiseguy.” Is that a crime?
I never liked this PC thing of banishing words. I’m gay too by the way, and I think it’s very hypocritical for gays to want to erase the words queer and fág when lots of us gays call each other that.
And just as an interesting anecdote, by father is very proud of his Italian descent, and he always loved Mafia movies and novels. According to him, it makes Italians look cool and tough.
But I dunno, we live in Brazil. Did you ever find people treating you differently in the US because of your Italian descent? It doesn’t happen here.
I’m of Italian descent, and I think you’re totally overeacting, mister_pj. Jeez, PAD only used the word “wiseguy.” Is that a crime?
I never liked this PC thing of banishing words. I’m gay too by the way, and I think it’s very hypocritical for gays to want to erase the words queer and fág when lots of us gays call each other that.
And just as an interesting anecdote, by father is very proud of his Italian descent, and he always loved Mafia movies and novels. According to him, it makes Italians look cool and tough.
But I dunno, we live in Brazil. Did you ever find people treating you differently in the US because of your Italian descent? It doesn’t happen here.
As a first-generation Italian-American, one who has nothing but contempt for the mob, and is flabbergasted by the success of utter garbage like The Sopranos, I did not see Peter’s comment as having anything to do so much with Italians as it did with the Mafia. Not exactly the same thing. The only person who insisted on an ethnic dimension to the comment was you, pj.
mister_pj: No, by all means keep perpetuating a stereotype and go a step further by acting indignant when you’re called on it. It speaks volumes.
Luigi Novi: If he doesn’t believe he’s perpetuating a stereotype, then how is it “indignant” for him to disagree with you?
mister pj: All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namibians?
Luigi Novi: He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
mister pj: Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Luigi Novi: In addition to the response Peter gave on this point, it should be pointed out that he has written that Kat Mueller in New Frontier suffers from her “German temper”.
mister pj: Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Luigi Novi: Because Mafia wiseguys, are stereotypically known to have colorful nicknames. Hitmen, who generally work with greater anonymity, do not. Nor to the same extent do the Yakuza or other ethnic mafias.
mister pj: Oh, you mean this email? That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint. It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too. Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Luigi Novi: If you’re attempting to engage someone in an intelligent discussion, or criticism, and want to present yourself as being able to illustrate a coherent point of view in an intelligent, civil manner, then yes, calling someone a “dìçk”, when they don’t share your point of view, doesn’t exactly show you to be capable of doing this.
As a first-generation Italian-American, one who has nothing but contempt for the mob, and is flabbergasted by the success of utter garbage like The Sopranos, I did not see Peter’s comment as having anything to do so much with Italians as it did with the Mafia. Not exactly the same thing. The only person who insisted on an ethnic dimension to the comment was you, pj.
mister_pj: No, by all means keep perpetuating a stereotype and go a step further by acting indignant when you’re called on it. It speaks volumes.
Luigi Novi: If he doesn’t believe he’s perpetuating a stereotype, then how is it “indignant” for him to disagree with you?
mister pj: All those movies that were used as examples? They’re about Laotians, Swedes and Namibians?
Luigi Novi: He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
mister pj: Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.
Luigi Novi: In addition to the response Peter gave on this point, it should be pointed out that he has written that Kat Mueller in New Frontier suffers from her “German temper”.
mister pj: Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Luigi Novi: Because Mafia wiseguys, are stereotypically known to have colorful nicknames. Hitmen, who generally work with greater anonymity, do not. Nor to the same extent do the Yakuza or other ethnic mafias.
mister pj: Oh, you mean this email? That’s condescending and you’re wrong whether you want to admit to it or not. Poll a bunch of Italian friends if you’re so secure in your position and see if they’re thrilled with your viewpoint. It’s not cool and you’re being a total dìçk too. Yeah, I can see how that’s so extreme it would cause you such tsuris.
Luigi Novi: If you’re attempting to engage someone in an intelligent discussion, or criticism, and want to present yourself as being able to illustrate a coherent point of view in an intelligent, civil manner, then yes, calling someone a “dìçk”, when they don’t share your point of view, doesn’t exactly show you to be capable of doing this.
(“Mafia wiseguy” vs. “hitman”)
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Well, “why not” doesn’t apply to me, because it pretty much calls up the same image to me.
I don’t really have a dog in this particular fight, but I saw nothing in PAD’s initial statement as any sort of slur or stereotype about Italians.
(“Mafia wiseguy” vs. “hitman”)
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Well, “why not” doesn’t apply to me, because it pretty much calls up the same image to me.
I don’t really have a dog in this particular fight, but I saw nothing in PAD’s initial statement as any sort of slur or stereotype about Italians.
Master PJ,
Chill the f out already.
Jesus, dude… Where to begin?
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
Oh, and everyone go check this link out.
http://pages.prodigy.net/mlemus/mobnamegenerator.htm
Master PJ,
Chill the f out already.
Jesus, dude… Where to begin?
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
Oh, and everyone go check this link out. (Add http:// to the front. I got stuck in the spam filter again.)
pages.prodigy.net/mlemus/mobnamegenerator.htm
Master PJ,
Chill the f out already.
Jesus, dude… Where to begin?
“Let me tell… you can be Polish and be on the receiving of a Polish joke, or Jewish and be on receiving end of a Jewish joke, or Irish, or Black or Spanish or any other ethnicity. Tell me when it’s YOU or YOUR ETHNIC GROUP if you still find it funny.”
Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
Every group has some stereotypes that have at least some truth in them. The ones that are true and that we actually share commonalities on are usually the funniest of all.
“Let‘s look at the statement:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Now, if I write:
…a hitman called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Does it call to mind the same mental image? Why not?
Certainly, I could use the word hitman but, it wouldn’t have the same connotations. It would be appropriate and still get the message across.”
Sure, because hitmen not with the Mafia were always coming up with or being given cute nicknames with the middle name “the” in them. The truth is that you’re likely to find more historical references to guys like that than you would hitmen not in the mob.
“If I write:
…a Yakuza called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
or
…a Russian wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber” is saying, “I’m gonna have t’get a new f*ckin'” nickname…”
Brings significantly different mental images, no?”
Yeah, it brings the image of a guy really stretching to make a point that he can’t and coming up with some truly dumb examples. Besides, The Russian wiseguy was named Иосиф водопроводчик anyhow.
Oh, and everyone go check this link out. (Add http:// to the front. I got stuck in the spam filter again.)
pages.prodigy.net/mlemus/mobnamegenerator.htm
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
Ouch, I am so mortally wounded. Oh! The pain! The pain!!!!
So, let me get this straight. If someone takes offense to something you write or say it’s their problem? They’re just stupid… that’s your inference right. Because there is absolutely no way the statement couldn’t be misread? And your justification in citing those movies doesn’t prove the point?
Okay, Peter. You’re right. Make you feel better?
So basically you’re arguing that I have to watch what I say because of what stupid people might think.
If that’s your point, you’re certainly making a good argument for it.
Ouch, I am so mortally wounded. Oh! The pain! The pain!!!!
So, let me get this straight. If someone takes offense to something you write or say it’s their problem? They’re just stupid… that’s your inference right. Because there is absolutely no way the statement couldn’t be misread? And your justification in citing those movies doesn’t prove the point?
Okay, Peter. You’re right. Make you feel better?
My Mafia name is Jerry “The Jury-Tamperer” Chandler.
Hmmm… I might not want to let my Chief know that one.
My Mafia name is Jerry “The Jury-Tamperer” Chandler.
Hmmm… I might not want to let my Chief know that one.
Luigi, one question?
He used those examples because you were the one claiming the perpetuation of a Mafia stereotype. What do Namibians or Laotians have to do with the American Mafia?
This is what I read:
…a Mafia wiseguy called “Joe the Plumber”
This is what I wrote:
Thanks PAD for the Mafia reference, way to perpetuate a stereotype.
This is the response I got:
Right, right. Because after “The Godfather,” “Godfather Part II,” “Godfather Part III”, “Goodfellas,” “Married to the Mob,” “The Sopranos,” “Analyze This,” “Analyze That,” not to mention countless real life trials involving criminals with similar nicknames, the “stereotype” was thisclose to dying off. And then I make a joke and suddenly it gains new life.
Please.
PAD
So, who is in the American Mafia?
Did I write the word Italian in there?
I got “Kids Incorporated”. What does that mean?
I got “Kids Incorporated”. What does that mean?
Jerry,
You wrote: Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
So I want to get this straight then, stuff like the Obama bucks and Fried Chicken is okay then too? Right?
Jerry,
You wrote: Gee… Let me think a minute here. Yeah, I do. And I’m pretty safe in saying that a lot of people here can answer that the same way and have proven the fact of that answer in the past.
I’m part Irish. Do you have any idea how many Irish jokes I know and tell? Peter has posted at least one thread before with a joke sent by family based on Jewish stereotypes and has added the odd joke of that nature into a thread before when it’s gotten silly. Sean makes fun of his ethnicity all the time. Bill Mulligan has made fun of his ethnic background and religious upbringing on the blog numerous times. Micha has made the odd joke based on his background and upbringing and sent me emails with jokes and sometimes the odd link that looks at the lighter side of living in a country under the threat of constant terrorist acts and religious arguments. I have two black friends at work who know more “I grew up in a poor black neighborhood” types of jokes than I even thought existed.
So I want to get this straight then, stuff like the Obama bucks and Fried Chicken is okay then too? Right?
“I got “Kids Incorporated”. What does that mean?”
You can sing and dance really well?