Hi all I am here. This is Kathleen typing since Peter is bowling this evening.
9:00 It’s a table debate. Makes it feel more down home don’ t it?
9:01 Domestic it is.
9:02 Aww they greeted each other nicely. Economy is the first issue up.
9:03 Thanks and Nancy Regan is in the hospital? What does this have to do with the economy?
9:04 John Q Public: We’re as mad as hëll and we aren’t going to take it any more
9:05 McCain makes some really good points of where the money needs to go for homeowners not speculators.
9:06 Rescue for the Middle Class. Good use of Buzz Words. Point for Obama.
9:07 Obama brings up that there is the long term and the short term.
9:07 McCain seems to be on the attack….and there goes the sound bite.
9:08 Nice one Obama (You are watching your own ads aren’t you?) I heard the audience laugh on that one.
9:10 Nice rebuttal by Obama but I think McCain is setting up that he will be on the attack all evening.
9:11 Can we stop talking about Joe the Plumber? How many times has McCain said Joe the Plumber? (Yes folks it is the new My Friends)
9:12 Obama needs to rein McCain in.
9:13 Moving onto the Deficit which is a 800 pound Gorilla in the room after hand out all this money.
9:14 Obama admits we have been living beyond our means (being America) Pay as you go is not a bad way to go but I don’t think it is plausible.
9:16 McCain is talking about the past again. Bob brings him back.
9;17 who has “countries that don’t like us very much” in the pool of phrases we have heard before
9:18 And WHO increased the government? Would that be Bush and the Republicans?
How did we get onto Energy from the Deficit?
9:19 He got the Planetarium in again. That projector is a great over simplification of what that object was.
9:20 Obama points out who was in the office and where we were. Smart move on his part.
9:20 Bob is trying to get it back to the Deficit and McCain is off and running again.
9:22 McCain is trying to say he is a Maverick without saying Maverick
9:22 Obama is sounding a little defensive but is trying to steer away from sounding so
Fox News! Good one Obabma. Again there is laughter in the audience
(:24 Please OH Please DON”T show us those scars!
9:25 OH this should be interesting. The High Road and the lack of walking on it
9:25 Yeah it has been tough all over. Town Hall meetings? Did you see how you did on the last one Mr. McCain?
9:26 McCain is really reaching here. And he has NOT repudiated many of those sorts of remarks no matter what he says. Oh boy he can prove it.
9:28 Obama better get a handle on this quick and there he goes. McCain doesn’t sound happy about what he is saying either. Just don’t say that you started it.
9:30 McCain watches football. Wonder what sport Obama watches? I’m betting basketball.
9:31 there is Joe again
9:31 Obama is going to step into the one with both feet. And there is the rebuttal on that sound bite.
9:32 Obama is trying to take the high road and McCain keeps butting in. Not quite cricket
9:34 Again I hear the audience giggle
9:35 Nice “disagree without being disagreeable”
9:36 There is the hit and the punch. Now can Obama sort this out without giving more fodder? Nice start now let see where he is going with it. He is doing an OK job of explaining what happened. Putting names that he does talk to is a good touch.
9:39 This is not making McCain looked good at all. Now he is trying to get on point again.
9:40 People to bring into the Government. VP choices
9:42 Ok he is using Biden to get some talking points across
9:42 Role model? To whom?
9:43 Palin is up to her ášš in the good ol’ boy network in Alaska. Just look at the indictment.
9:44 Nice side step Obama.
9:45 McCain has been couched to death on this question.
9:46 McCain is on the attack again. Obama not given the oppertunity to respond.
9:46 Now we are into Energy policy and a real number is asked for. Not going to get it but he asked real nice
9:48 McCain is very comfortable with this question and gave his rote answer. Let’s see how Obama does.
9:49 Obama is playing the camera more than McCain. He is look at Bob or Obama.
9:50 Can’t drill our way out is a good phrase to use
9:51 McCain is in for the attack again. Trying for the downhome touch again. He didn’t say Elite but he came d*mn close
9:52 Point for McCain for pointing out that Obama has never been to South America. Has Bush?
9:53 Pulling it back to Energy and the American auto industry. Not a bad way to go.
9:55 I figured that McCain was going to bring up Chavez. Restrict trade and raise taxes. he is really trying to get those sound bites in.
9:56 Health Care. Boy this is a sticky subject
9:57 Make sure you keep it simple Obama and push it onto the Insurance companies. That Fed pool won’t work for the general public. It is suplimented up the ying yang by the government. At least he admits that it will cost to start but how it might be better later
9:58 How about NOT CUTTING PE AND RECESS OUT OF THE SCHOOL DAY TO TEACH TO THE TEST
Oh for the love of mother mary, Joe the plumber again?
5,000 will NOT pay for healthcare in the New York industry. And Obama has answered these charges before (like the last two debates)
10:00 Obama reminds McCain that he has answered these questions before. Now Obama is talking to Joe. I want to see a picture of this magic plumber.
10:02 Obama is right about cherry picking clients. He gave a number! 12,000 is about right for a family policy.
10:03 McCain needs to get off the Joe jag. Obama just rebutted this just 90 seconds ago. And McCain had drank the Kool Aid about his health plan.
10:04 We have heard this all in the last debate, There is nothing new here. Why don’t we move along?
10:06 Roe vs. Wade and the Supreme Court. Good question
10:06 McCain is doing well on this one in terms of the Supreme Court not the state rights issue
10:07 Qualified judicial nominees would be nice to see some get nominated finally rather than the croneism that has been going on.
10:08 OK they agree on this one. Then I think we should move on.
10:09 Obama is taking the bull by the horns here and telling us what he believes. Might be a dangerous thing to do but refreshing to here.
10:10 Lilly Leadbetter is a good example for him to use for this question.
10:12 And McCain is on the attack again trying to make Obama the villain of the piece.
10:13 Obama is again trying to set the facts straight
10:14 Point for Obama for talking about other options and sex ed
10:15 And on the attack is McCain. He is trying to make it sound like Obama is playing word games with the American people
10:16 And we end with Education a good topic indeed
10:17 Nice tie in with other problems Obama and getting the words national security out there before McCain
10:18 Not bad and he does bring up the responcibility of the parents for their children
10:19 Choice and competition? The New York experiment with for profit public schools failed spectaculary.
10:20 Not certify teachers just because they are ex-military? What?
10:21 Nice play on “No Child left behind” which has been a disaster for most school districts. School vouchers don’t work. Point for Obama
10:23 McCain is defending NCLB? It has been the biggest problem for the schools who have gotten rid of creative programs to teach to the bloody test.
10:25 And he is bring in Autism again for what purpose?
10;26 thank you Mr. Obama for saying that vouchers don’t work.
Mydebates.org
10:27 McCain blinking like crazy. Maybe he suffers from dry eye. Does his speech sound a bit more slurred than usual? He is just going through his talking points.
10:29 Obama is going through his talking points now.
McCain came in on the attack more this go around. Obama managed to defend.
I don’t think McCain got that big hit he was looking for. He seemed petulant at points.
Pretty even match over all. I hope Joe the Plumber was watching.
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Slightly off topic but Letterman is beating up McCain pretty good.
Once he gets McCain going on Ayres he brings up G Gordon Liddy, and McCain is caught completely flatfooted
Yeah, I’m watching it, too. Ðámņ, I wish I’d thought to blog this one. I thought McCain was gonna šhìŧ a brick when he brought up Liddy. He didn’t even reference the Keating 5.
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Yeah, I’m watching it, too. Ðámņ, I wish I’d thought to blog this one. I thought McCain was gonna šhìŧ a brick when he brought up Liddy. He didn’t even reference the Keating 5.
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it was very kind of of Paul to interupt and then going to commercial.
But McCain’s answer following that didn’t really help. He paid his debt to society and I’m glad to know him.
The fact that Bill Ayres holds such a prominent position suggests that in general society has moved on.
So the having McCain defend Liddy when Obama has never defended Ayres only makes him look worse.
plus all the comments on Palin make McCain’s intense defense of her look bad too.
Dave set up a lot of traps for McCain in that interview and he walked into all of them.
it was very kind of of Paul to interupt and then going to commercial.
But McCain’s answer following that didn’t really help. He paid his debt to society and I’m glad to know him.
The fact that Bill Ayres holds such a prominent position suggests that in general society has moved on.
So the having McCain defend Liddy when Obama has never defended Ayres only makes him look worse.
plus all the comments on Palin make McCain’s intense defense of her look bad too.
Dave set up a lot of traps for McCain in that interview and he walked into all of them.
Yeah, that Letterman interview was brutal.
There’s something weird about how comedians can actually give more scathing interviews than reporters. I guess it goes back to the old idea of the court jester being able to joke about the king. This was something more, however. I don’t think even Jon Stewart could give an interview to McCain that was that rough.
By the way, Susan O, sorry to be such a spoilsport tonight. I didn’t mean to shut down what you were saying so much. I really appreciate the link you gave, it led to a very interesting article on a very promising new process for producing cellulosic ethanol that I was glad to read.
Yeah, that Letterman interview was brutal.
There’s something weird about how comedians can actually give more scathing interviews than reporters. I guess it goes back to the old idea of the court jester being able to joke about the king. This was something more, however. I don’t think even Jon Stewart could give an interview to McCain that was that rough.
By the way, Susan O, sorry to be such a spoilsport tonight. I didn’t mean to shut down what you were saying so much. I really appreciate the link you gave, it led to a very interesting article on a very promising new process for producing cellulosic ethanol that I was glad to read.
No problem. I don’t have time to keep up with all the details, and if someone else does, more power to them. Even so, for me, paying $10 a barrel more for oil that is ecologically sound and frees us from foreign dependence is well worth it. It still seems more promising and faster to come than the promised fuel cells or electric cars. Coming from a state where electricity was deregulated and the cost promptly doubled overnight, where I converted my electric heat to oil because it cost a quarter as much for oil, I cannot imagine the cost of running an electric car. Or in our house, two or three.
No problem. I don’t have time to keep up with all the details, and if someone else does, more power to them. Even so, for me, paying $10 a barrel more for oil that is ecologically sound and frees us from foreign dependence is well worth it. It still seems more promising and faster to come than the promised fuel cells or electric cars. Coming from a state where electricity was deregulated and the cost promptly doubled overnight, where I converted my electric heat to oil because it cost a quarter as much for oil, I cannot imagine the cost of running an electric car. Or in our house, two or three.
I don’t think even Jon Stewart could give an interview to McCain that was that rough.
I think that’s because–and this is purely conjecture on my part–I think Jon Stewart still cares if people like him or not. And I think Dave absolutely doesn’t give a crap. Being independently wealthy, which I suspect Letterman is, gives you that kind of freedom. Also, quite simply, Dave was pìššëd øff. EXTREMELY pìššëd øff. And McCain wound up feeling the brunt of that annoyance. Frankly, I think the last thing that McCain would EVER want would be to have both him and Obama debating on Letterman, because Letterman wouldn’t let either of them get away with anything. He’d say all the stuff that smartasses like me say on my blog.
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So, “Joe [Wurzelbach]the Plumber” is (A) not a plumber – not a licensed one, anyway, (B) Related to one of the Keating 5 figures, and (C) has a 2007 back-tax lien for $1,182.92.
So, “Joe [Wurzelbach]the Plumber” is (A) not a plumber – not a licensed one, anyway, (B) Related to one of the Keating 5 figures, and (C) has a 2007 back-tax lien for $1,182.92.
Good points. I have some other conjecture in addition to that.
Jon Stewart is almost always nice to the guests, or at least to the big wig guests. He was polite to Rick Santorum, who is an impressively large pile of human waste. Once when Jon was interviewing a Bush advisor, he told the guy to ask Bush to come on the show, promising to be nice to the point that Jon even said that he’s a total pussy when giving interviews.
I think this is partly because, as popular as the show is, they only have a limited audience. A republican candidate has almost nothing to gain from the audience of the Daily Show, so Stewart has to be nice if he wants to continue getting a wide range of political guests.
Letterman’s audience probably doesn’t have as much of a political lean as the Daily Show’s audience has, plus I think the Late Show gets higher ratings. So McCain losing the Late Show audience is probably a lot more dangerous than losing the votes of the Daily Show audience. Heck, it might be enough to swing Indiana, Letterman’s home state. Plus, Letterman doesn’t really *have* to have political guests, that’s not the majority of what he does. All this puts Dave in a position of power that Jon isn’t in.
But that’s just why Jon Stewart is nicer to guests in general. In this particular case, what you talked about is probably the main cause: Letterman doesn’t give a crap. He’s more than a decade older than Stewart and he’s rich enough that he could retire tomorrow and probably be okay with his career. McCain’s not going to do anything that would really hurt him, so why the hëll not.
But I still want to see McCain go back on the Daily Show. And I want to see Stewart get pìššëd øff with a major guest for once. Nobody has been on the Daily Show more than John McCain and nobody was friendlier with Jon Stewart. Yet he hasn’t been on in awhile. At the beginning of the year Jon told Peggy Noonan that an Obama/McCain race would be a “tonic for country” because it would be so positive. When she was back on recently, he said that went to hëll really fast. I think Stewart is feeling a little betrayed. We all saw McCain break his promises about the campaign, but Stewart actually knew the guy and took those promises personally.
Good points. I have some other conjecture in addition to that.
Jon Stewart is almost always nice to the guests, or at least to the big wig guests. He was polite to Rick Santorum, who is an impressively large pile of human waste. Once when Jon was interviewing a Bush advisor, he told the guy to ask Bush to come on the show, promising to be nice to the point that Jon even said that he’s a total pussy when giving interviews.
I think this is partly because, as popular as the show is, they only have a limited audience. A republican candidate has almost nothing to gain from the audience of the Daily Show, so Stewart has to be nice if he wants to continue getting a wide range of political guests.
Letterman’s audience probably doesn’t have as much of a political lean as the Daily Show’s audience has, plus I think the Late Show gets higher ratings. So McCain losing the Late Show audience is probably a lot more dangerous than losing the votes of the Daily Show audience. Heck, it might be enough to swing Indiana, Letterman’s home state. Plus, Letterman doesn’t really *have* to have political guests, that’s not the majority of what he does. All this puts Dave in a position of power that Jon isn’t in.
But that’s just why Jon Stewart is nicer to guests in general. In this particular case, what you talked about is probably the main cause: Letterman doesn’t give a crap. He’s more than a decade older than Stewart and he’s rich enough that he could retire tomorrow and probably be okay with his career. McCain’s not going to do anything that would really hurt him, so why the hëll not.
But I still want to see McCain go back on the Daily Show. And I want to see Stewart get pìššëd øff with a major guest for once. Nobody has been on the Daily Show more than John McCain and nobody was friendlier with Jon Stewart. Yet he hasn’t been on in awhile. At the beginning of the year Jon told Peggy Noonan that an Obama/McCain race would be a “tonic for country” because it would be so positive. When she was back on recently, he said that went to hëll really fast. I think Stewart is feeling a little betrayed. We all saw McCain break his promises about the campaign, but Stewart actually knew the guy and took those promises personally.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan
I like that one too, actually. I would still prefer vitrification to concrete, because solid blocks of ceramic are less likely to allow Bad Things to leach out into groundwater…
I recall a Discovery Channel video once that talked about the problem with the signs–what happens when, as has always happened, the language changes to the point where future people no longer understand what the signs mean? they were hiring poets and artists to try to some up with some Universal Sign of Extreme Badness. Not so easy. In some alternate civilization Mr Yuck could be the equivalent of “have nice day”.
I doubt that the radiation trefoi will have a different meaning in any foreseable future – unless we wind up in Andre Norton’s Star Man’s Son or some other post-Apocalyptic ociety…
Posted by: Bill Mulligan
I like that one too, actually. I would still prefer vitrification to concrete, because solid blocks of ceramic are less likely to allow Bad Things to leach out into groundwater…
I recall a Discovery Channel video once that talked about the problem with the signs–what happens when, as has always happened, the language changes to the point where future people no longer understand what the signs mean? they were hiring poets and artists to try to some up with some Universal Sign of Extreme Badness. Not so easy. In some alternate civilization Mr Yuck could be the equivalent of “have nice day”.
I doubt that the radiation trefoi will have a different meaning in any foreseable future – unless we wind up in Andre Norton’s Star Man’s Son or some other post-Apocalyptic ociety…
So, “Joe [Wurzelbach]the Plumber” is (A) not a plumber – not a licensed one, anyway, (B) Related to one of the Keating 5 figures, and (C) has a 2007 back-tax lien for $1,182.92.
You know, this is kind of ugly. A guy is approached by a politician, asks a question and the politician’s opponents seize on the answer for political points. In retaliation he now has his name, address, and financial information spread around. And Mccain is the Mcarthyite?
(Note–not that this means Obama is. I’ve always said the man is better than a lot of the people supporting him. But it behooves the rest of us to point this out or we’re part of the problem too.)
A- Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t it Obama who first called him Joe the Plumber, probably because he wasn’t sure of his last name? (I think McCain just mispronounced it).
B- He has a lien? Wow, so do lots of people, including, by one report, a high level official in the Obama campaign. What does this tell us. Nothing! Not about joe, not about Obama. nothing.
C- he’s not a liscensed plumber. thank God those licensed journalists got to the bottom of that. Oh, you don’t need a license to be a journalist/ Well, that’s fair. We expect good work from plumbers.
D- Even dailykos, which published his address and then regretted it because it was an indecent thing to do…no, I’m kidding, it was because it turned out to be his ex-wife’s address…has said that the “accusation” that he was related to Keating was false. Too bad, because we know that anyone who has crooked relatives is still tainted with their sin and should not be trusted.
Lesson learned folks–if a politician comes up to you just smile for the camera. Don’t make waves. Don’t ask questions. And nobody gets hurt.
“Related to one of the Keating 5 figures”
Nope, not true. Joe the Plumber isn’t that Wurzelbach.
“Related to one of the Keating 5 figures”
Nope, not true. Joe the Plumber isn’t that Wurzelbach.
,i>I doubt that the radiation trefoi will have a different meaning in any foreseable future – unless we wind up in Andre Norton’s Star Man’s Son or some other post-Apocalyptic ociety…
Well, that’s the problem isn’t it? It was just a few thousand years ago that great civilizations wrote stuff with languages that we can no longer decipher with absolute certainty. And they left their words carved in stone, while we use electronic media with a shelf life of decades. Radiation lasts a long time. Civilizations…not so much. I’d like to think we are different…but so did the Egyptians, Minoans, Maya…
Seriously,it’s amazing how much we have already forgotten. Words that were coined just a few centuries ago have lost their origins. the majority of movies made before the 1940s are gone forever. Events that existed before youtube have their veracity doubted. One good electronic pulse and massive amounts of our history vanish.
,i>I doubt that the radiation trefoi will have a different meaning in any foreseable future – unless we wind up in Andre Norton’s Star Man’s Son or some other post-Apocalyptic ociety…
Well, that’s the problem isn’t it? It was just a few thousand years ago that great civilizations wrote stuff with languages that we can no longer decipher with absolute certainty. And they left their words carved in stone, while we use electronic media with a shelf life of decades. Radiation lasts a long time. Civilizations…not so much. I’d like to think we are different…but so did the Egyptians, Minoans, Maya…
Seriously,it’s amazing how much we have already forgotten. Words that were coined just a few centuries ago have lost their origins. the majority of movies made before the 1940s are gone forever. Events that existed before youtube have their veracity doubted. One good electronic pulse and massive amounts of our history vanish.
By Sam^H^H^H^H Joe’s own account, he approached Obama.
He’s a registered republican who voted in the primaries — who you can find in the phonebook listed, but not listed as Joe, yet McCain staffers have his phone number — who’s passing himself off as undecided. The ugliness isn’t who you think it is.
“You know, this is kind of ugly. A guy is approached by a politician, asks a question and the politician’s opponents seize on the answer for political points. In retaliation he now has his name, address, and financial information spread around. And Mccain is the Mcarthyite?”
So it’s been confirmed that Obama researched this and released the info?
So it’s been confirmed that Obama researched this and released the info?
Er…no. You did read the post, right? My second line was how this sort of thing should not be taken as meaning that Obama is using McCarthy-like tactic, even if some of his less intelligent supporters are willing to do so.
I have no doubt that Obama would rather the whole Joe The Plumber thing go away and, if that isn’t possible, he not get dragged into the mudslinging done supposedly on his behalf. Smart man, Obama. Some pro-Obama bloggers…not so much.
So it’s been confirmed that Obama researched this and released the info?
Er…no. You did read the post, right? My second line was how this sort of thing should not be taken as meaning that Obama is using McCarthy-like tactic, even if some of his less intelligent supporters are willing to do so.
I have no doubt that Obama would rather the whole Joe The Plumber thing go away and, if that isn’t possible, he not get dragged into the mudslinging done supposedly on his behalf. Smart man, Obama. Some pro-Obama bloggers…not so much.
That was my sarcastic point, as there will be Mccainites that take it seriously.
That’s what makes Peter’s board so good, there are folks from both sides that post, whackos and reasonable folks alike on both sides too
That was my sarcastic point, as there will be Mccainites that take it seriously.
That’s what makes Peter’s board so good, there are folks from both sides that post, whackos and reasonable folks alike on both sides too
Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t it Obama who first called him Joe the Plumber, probably because he wasn’t sure of his last name? (I think McCain just mispronounced it).
I am almost certain that McCain first brought him up, at least in the debate. If you mean pre-debate, I don’t know.
I haven’t seen anything about either candidate mentioning Joe before the debate. McCain definitely brought Joe up first in the debate.
Also, if McCain had left it at one or two mentions, Joe probably wouldn’t have gotten the media scrutiny he’s gotten so far. Both candidates have mentioned people they’ve met in the debates. McCain mentioned Joe twenty times, which made Obama have to mention him about a half dozen more times in response. McCain focused on this guy so often, there was no way the media could resist tracking Joe down and finding out why McCain loved him so much.
I haven’t seen anything about either candidate mentioning Joe before the debate. McCain definitely brought Joe up first in the debate.
Also, if McCain had left it at one or two mentions, Joe probably wouldn’t have gotten the media scrutiny he’s gotten so far. Both candidates have mentioned people they’ve met in the debates. McCain mentioned Joe twenty times, which made Obama have to mention him about a half dozen more times in response. McCain focused on this guy so often, there was no way the media could resist tracking Joe down and finding out why McCain loved him so much.
I am almost certain that McCain first brought him up, at least in the debate. If you mean pre-debate, I don’t know.
I thought–and I could be wrong about this so if there’s a transcript we could check it out–that McCain brought him up but gave mis actual name (mangled the pronunciation though) and then Obama refered to him as Joe the Plumber. My point being, it isn’t like this guy has Joe The Plumber painted on his doorstep, like he’s trying to pass himself off as the epitome of Everyman. I’m just reacting to the outrage on some quaters that seems to be “This guy calls himself Joe the Plumber…but he isn’t a licensed plumber at all!!!” like this is some kind of great scoop. Some are trmpeting the factthat Joe is only his middle name–his real name is sam. hey! What’s he trying to pull here!
hëll, why go after the “the” as well. Joe “the” plumber. Like he’s the only plumber in town. I don’t think so!
Again, just remeber what it was that this guy did to earn all this hate and scrutiny. He asked a politician a question. Am I overreacting here? Doesn’t this strike people as just a little potentially dangerous? Even if someone is so gung ho for Obama that they think anyone who isn’t deserves what they get, shouldn’t they worry whether that could end up being done to them when the political pendulum swings back to the right?
I am almost certain that McCain first brought him up, at least in the debate. If you mean pre-debate, I don’t know.
I thought–and I could be wrong about this so if there’s a transcript we could check it out–that McCain brought him up but gave mis actual name (mangled the pronunciation though) and then Obama refered to him as Joe the Plumber. My point being, it isn’t like this guy has Joe The Plumber painted on his doorstep, like he’s trying to pass himself off as the epitome of Everyman. I’m just reacting to the outrage on some quaters that seems to be “This guy calls himself Joe the Plumber…but he isn’t a licensed plumber at all!!!” like this is some kind of great scoop. Some are trmpeting the factthat Joe is only his middle name–his real name is sam. hey! What’s he trying to pull here!
hëll, why go after the “the” as well. Joe “the” plumber. Like he’s the only plumber in town. I don’t think so!
Again, just remeber what it was that this guy did to earn all this hate and scrutiny. He asked a politician a question. Am I overreacting here? Doesn’t this strike people as just a little potentially dangerous? Even if someone is so gung ho for Obama that they think anyone who isn’t deserves what they get, shouldn’t they worry whether that could end up being done to them when the political pendulum swings back to the right?
He literally misrepresented himself to benefit McCain. I said so, and you haven’t invalidated what I said. So, yes, you’re overreacting.
Actually, I may be be wrong about who said the exact words “Joe the Plumber” first. McCain used his full name but then he did say “And what you want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.”
Obama came back with “Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I essentially said to him was, “Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then.”
After that it was all “Joe the plumber” which, admitedly, is easier to say than Joe Wurzelbacher. As are most things.
So unless the news report reffered to him as oe the Plumber it was McCain who first said it. Which is still not Joe’s fault.
Actually, I may be be wrong about who said the exact words “Joe the Plumber” first. McCain used his full name but then he did say “And what you want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.”
Obama came back with “Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I essentially said to him was, “Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then.”
After that it was all “Joe the plumber” which, admitedly, is easier to say than Joe Wurzelbacher. As are most things.
So unless the news report reffered to him as oe the Plumber it was McCain who first said it. Which is still not Joe’s fault.
“Lesson learned folks–if a politician comes up to you just smile for the camera. Don’t make waves. Don’t ask questions. And nobody gets hurt.”
No, the lessons learned are:
1) Don’t try and create a mythical figure for your propaganda campaign in an era where these things are far too easy to debunk.
2) Don’t try and capitalize on notoriety and turn it into celebrity when your notoriety/celebrity is based on lies or half truths.
The conservative talkers were running with “Joe the Plumber” all day before the debate even started and the McCain campaign took that ball and ran with it. They created the myth of a guy working 14 hour days with dream of buying the plumbing business he worked for that (by Joe’s own words to Obama) made somewhere in between $250,000 to $280,000 a year. The next day when he had a chance to deflect the spotlight; Joe played with it and set himself up for a few chat shows. He took what McCain had done at the debate, turning “Joe the Plumber” into a symbol for the McCain campaign, and solidified it by his own choice.
It’s not really the media’s fault that, when they went looking for this mythical figure, that they found out that it was 100% mythical. They merely reported what they found.
1) Joe makes around $40,000 and would do better under Obama’s proposed tax plan.
2) He doesn’t really have any sort of solid plan for buying his boss’s business.
3) His boss’s business only makes around $100,000 or so a year and wouldn’t be facing the taxation Joe claimed it would when speaking with Obama.
4) In an area where you are required to have a license to practice; neither Joe nor his boss have acquired a license to practice.
5) The union membership he publicly claims is false as he’s never been a member of the union.
6) He has a history of not paying his taxes (for whatever reason) and is presently under liens because of that.
The Democrats have to tread very lightly here as they want to dispel the myth of “Joe the Plumber” without attacking Joe Wurzelbach the man. However, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that the symbol that your opponent is trying to use against you is a turkey rather than an eagle.
And, just as a matter of side-by-side comparisons, the Democrats and the “left-wing” media have so far been the epitome of pure class compared to the Republicans, conservative talk radio, Fox News, bloggers like Michelle Malkin and there various supporters/fans were this time last year in their 24/7 smear campaign to attack as people Graeme Frost and his family and make up lies about them for weeks on end. Even Kos has been shooting down falsehoods reported about Wurzelbach while Fox News, Malkin and talk radio were just making up anything they could and uncritically reporting every internet smear on that family as the unvarnished truth.
“Lesson learned folks–if a politician comes up to you just smile for the camera. Don’t make waves. Don’t ask questions. And nobody gets hurt.”
No, the lessons learned are:
1) Don’t try and create a mythical figure for your propaganda campaign in an era where these things are far too easy to debunk.
2) Don’t try and capitalize on notoriety and turn it into celebrity when your notoriety/celebrity is based on lies or half truths.
The conservative talkers were running with “Joe the Plumber” all day before the debate even started and the McCain campaign took that ball and ran with it. They created the myth of a guy working 14 hour days with dream of buying the plumbing business he worked for that (by Joe’s own words to Obama) made somewhere in between $250,000 to $280,000 a year. The next day when he had a chance to deflect the spotlight; Joe played with it and set himself up for a few chat shows. He took what McCain had done at the debate, turning “Joe the Plumber” into a symbol for the McCain campaign, and solidified it by his own choice.
It’s not really the media’s fault that, when they went looking for this mythical figure, that they found out that it was 100% mythical. They merely reported what they found.
1) Joe makes around $40,000 and would do better under Obama’s proposed tax plan.
2) He doesn’t really have any sort of solid plan for buying his boss’s business.
3) His boss’s business only makes around $100,000 or so a year and wouldn’t be facing the taxation Joe claimed it would when speaking with Obama.
4) In an area where you are required to have a license to practice; neither Joe nor his boss have acquired a license to practice.
5) The union membership he publicly claims is false as he’s never been a member of the union.
6) He has a history of not paying his taxes (for whatever reason) and is presently under liens because of that.
The Democrats have to tread very lightly here as they want to dispel the myth of “Joe the Plumber” without attacking Joe Wurzelbach the man. However, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that the symbol that your opponent is trying to use against you is a turkey rather than an eagle.
And, just as a matter of side-by-side comparisons, the Democrats and the “left-wing” media have so far been the epitome of pure class compared to the Republicans, conservative talk radio, Fox News, bloggers like Michelle Malkin and there various supporters/fans were this time last year in their 24/7 smear campaign to attack as people Graeme Frost and his family and make up lies about them for weeks on end. Even Kos has been shooting down falsehoods reported about Wurzelbach while Fox News, Malkin and talk radio were just making up anything they could and uncritically reporting every internet smear on that family as the unvarnished truth.
Bill Mulligan: “Again, just remeber what it was that this guy did to earn all this hate and scrutiny. He asked a politician a question. Am I overreacting here? Doesn’t this strike people as just a little potentially dangerous? Even if someone is so gung ho for Obama that they think anyone who isn’t deserves what they get, shouldn’t they worry whether that could end up being done to them when the political pendulum swings back to the right?”
Again (even if this was posted before my last bit on the subject) it’s not about a regular citizen that asked a question. A lot of people asks these guys questions all the time. The difference is what was done here with the questioner and what the McCain campaign is doing by creating a mythical figure known as “Joe the Plumber” to represent thins that the real Joe isn’t and doesn’t.
Think about a few weeks back when Palin was grabbing a snack and someone asked her about what we should do with Pakistan if they were sheltering OBL or his people and wouldn’t help us get them. She answered by giving the same answer that Obama had given that was getting Obama ridiculed by McCain and his supporters. The Obama campaign and those friendly to the Obama campaign had a field day with that. But they focused on the question and they focused on Palin and her answer. They didn’t create some mythical figure like “Sam the Eatery Guy” who was supposed to represent the American people’s desire to get OBL and be a club to beat McCain over the head with while whining that the mean old McCain campaign was attacking some poor, average, hard working American whenever they tried to defend themselves over the matter.
Conservative talk radio was buzzing about Joe and making him a symbol before the debate even took place. Huckabee was on Fox last night talking about the fact that he got lucky and committed Joe to an appearance on his Fox News weekend show before the debate. He said that he did so because, based on the buzz on talk radio, he knew that the guy could come out of the debate night rhetoric as a big thing.
McCain grabbed the buzz and turned it into a symbol during the debates. Since that time he’s been pushing “Joe the Plumber’ and everything that Joe “stands for” at every stump speech and uses the mythical “Joe the plumber” to claim that Obama is going to tax Joe, tax Joe’s business (that he does not own and wouldn’t hit by Obama’s plan anyhow) and destroy small businesses in America.
No, lots of people ask questions and lots of these questions get picked up by the media or the opposition all of the time. But most of the time the focus is on the question or the answer and not the questioner. The Republicans and their supporters chose to create a fake symbol out of distorted reality and named it Joe the Plumber. Again, so long as the other side is smart enough to not attack Joe the man there should be no real issue in pointing out that the gun of “Joe the Plumber” still has the safety on and it has no bullets in it anyway.
Bill Mulligan: “Again, just remeber what it was that this guy did to earn all this hate and scrutiny. He asked a politician a question. Am I overreacting here? Doesn’t this strike people as just a little potentially dangerous? Even if someone is so gung ho for Obama that they think anyone who isn’t deserves what they get, shouldn’t they worry whether that could end up being done to them when the political pendulum swings back to the right?”
Again (even if this was posted before my last bit on the subject) it’s not about a regular citizen that asked a question. A lot of people asks these guys questions all the time. The difference is what was done here with the questioner and what the McCain campaign is doing by creating a mythical figure known as “Joe the Plumber” to represent thins that the real Joe isn’t and doesn’t.
Think about a few weeks back when Palin was grabbing a snack and someone asked her about what we should do with Pakistan if they were sheltering OBL or his people and wouldn’t help us get them. She answered by giving the same answer that Obama had given that was getting Obama ridiculed by McCain and his supporters. The Obama campaign and those friendly to the Obama campaign had a field day with that. But they focused on the question and they focused on Palin and her answer. They didn’t create some mythical figure like “Sam the Eatery Guy” who was supposed to represent the American people’s desire to get OBL and be a club to beat McCain over the head with while whining that the mean old McCain campaign was attacking some poor, average, hard working American whenever they tried to defend themselves over the matter.
Conservative talk radio was buzzing about Joe and making him a symbol before the debate even took place. Huckabee was on Fox last night talking about the fact that he got lucky and committed Joe to an appearance on his Fox News weekend show before the debate. He said that he did so because, based on the buzz on talk radio, he knew that the guy could come out of the debate night rhetoric as a big thing.
McCain grabbed the buzz and turned it into a symbol during the debates. Since that time he’s been pushing “Joe the Plumber’ and everything that Joe “stands for” at every stump speech and uses the mythical “Joe the plumber” to claim that Obama is going to tax Joe, tax Joe’s business (that he does not own and wouldn’t hit by Obama’s plan anyhow) and destroy small businesses in America.
No, lots of people ask questions and lots of these questions get picked up by the media or the opposition all of the time. But most of the time the focus is on the question or the answer and not the questioner. The Republicans and their supporters chose to create a fake symbol out of distorted reality and named it Joe the Plumber. Again, so long as the other side is smart enough to not attack Joe the man there should be no real issue in pointing out that the gun of “Joe the Plumber” still has the safety on and it has no bullets in it anyway.
I don’t know if I would call the reaction epitome of pure class–read some of the comments on Kos–but you make some valid points.
I hadn’t heard that he claimed a union membership he didn’t have. If true, that’s pretty stupid. I still don’t like how the tax lien is used against him but not against guys high up in the campaigns.
One other thing–it’s true that it was wrong for Malkin to print the Frost’s address. Was it worng for Kos to print what they thought was Wurzelbach’s? And is the worst thing about the claim that he is related to Keating the fact that it’s wrong or just the idea that it would be significant?
But they focused on the question and they focused on Palin and her answer. They didn’t create some mythical figure like “Sam the Eatery Guy” who was supposed to represent the American people’s desire to get OBL and be a club to beat McCain over the head with while whining that the mean old McCain campaign was attacking some poor, average, hard working American whenever they tried to defend themselves over the matter.
true enough…but if they had would it be justified to have dug so deeply into Sam’s life? The NYT has had better reporting on Palin’s daughter and Joe the Plumber than they have on real issues and people that will actually matter.
Again, so long as the other side is smart enough to not attack Joe the man there should be no real issue in pointing out that the gun of “Joe the Plumber” still has the safety on and it has no bullets in it anyway.
I think there has already been enough ugliness from the far left blogs to give people the impression that the guy is being crucified. I’ll agree with you though that a number of them have been wise enough to keep the dogs at bay and I’ve never thought that Obama would support any personal attacks.
But they focused on the question and they focused on Palin and her answer. They didn’t create some mythical figure like “Sam the Eatery Guy” who was supposed to represent the American people’s desire to get OBL and be a club to beat McCain over the head with while whining that the mean old McCain campaign was attacking some poor, average, hard working American whenever they tried to defend themselves over the matter.
true enough…but if they had would it be justified to have dug so deeply into Sam’s life? The NYT has had better reporting on Palin’s daughter and Joe the Plumber than they have on real issues and people that will actually matter.
Again, so long as the other side is smart enough to not attack Joe the man there should be no real issue in pointing out that the gun of “Joe the Plumber” still has the safety on and it has no bullets in it anyway.
I think there has already been enough ugliness from the far left blogs to give people the impression that the guy is being crucified. I’ll agree with you though that a number of them have been wise enough to keep the dogs at bay and I’ve never thought that Obama would support any personal attacks.
“I hadn’t heard that he claimed a union membership he didn’t have. If true, that’s pretty stupid. “
It seems he had stated that for several jobs and that he had it on his Facebook pagethat he was with local 189 in Columbus. Once the union got word of it through the press and said something he pulled the Facebook information down.
And I didn’t say that they were the “epitome of pure class” in this. I said that they have been “the epitome of pure class compared to the Republicans” from back in the Frost flap. No one is covering themselves in glory here, but Joe is getting off easy when you remember what the smear machine did with the Frost family.
“I hadn’t heard that he claimed a union membership he didn’t have. If true, that’s pretty stupid. “
It seems he had stated that for several jobs and that he had it on his Facebook pagethat he was with local 189 in Columbus. Once the union got word of it through the press and said something he pulled the Facebook information down.
And I didn’t say that they were the “epitome of pure class” in this. I said that they have been “the epitome of pure class compared to the Republicans” from back in the Frost flap. No one is covering themselves in glory here, but Joe is getting off easy when you remember what the smear machine did with the Frost family.
And on a much happier note–thank you for the recent gift. rest assured something is winding back your way soon…something so obscure you’ll be the envy of…well, nobody. But still…
And on a much happier note–thank you for the recent gift. rest assured something is winding back your way soon…something so obscure you’ll be the envy of…well, nobody. But still…
Ah, so the film is one you like? You’ll have to email me and tell me if you had it already on VHS.
Ah, so the film is one you like? You’ll have to email me and tell me if you had it already on VHS.
video of clips of McCain saying Obama would raise Joe’s taxes, and Joe admitting Obama won’t raise his taxes: youtube.com/watch?v=aejhxaNzMKM
If Joe Plumber had in fact been related to Charles Keating, it would lead one to wonder whether McCain had known the guy, or at least been able to contact him, beforehand, and set him up for this media exposure. Either that, or it would have been a freakishly appropriate coincidence.
As for his tax lien…YMMV, but I just think that one has a lot more credibility in questioning a major presidential candidate about his tax plan–not to mention, then waxing paranoid about the “slippery slope” in which the tax increases are going to travel down the income brackets–if one has already paid one’s taxes in full. *shrugs* Between the reality that Obama’s plan would actually leave this guy with more money, and the fact that Wurzelbacher didn’t even pay all the taxes he’s being charged now…I just can’t help but think there’s something really, really funny about his impulse to ask Obama some tough questions.