I had a feeling the AMPTP was stonewalling the WGA for the simple reason that they saw no point in bargaining with the WGA. Instead they were waiting for talks with the Directors Guild. Why? Because, in my opinion, what the AMPTP *really* wants to avoid is the WGA unionizing animation writers, reality show writers, etc. So the reasoning was simple: Refuse to talk to the WGA. Wait instead for the DGA’s contract negotiations to start. Come across as completely reasonable on the very points that they were stonewalling the WGA on. And once the DGA ratifies the agreement, then the pressure is suddenly on the WGA to accept the terms and go back to work.
My guess? The plan will work.
PAD
• 
While I’m basing this solely on what I’ve read via new items and the like, I don’t think the AMPTP has been all that unreasonable overall, but they’re not exactly without fault either.
Obviously, PAD, with you being a writer, you’ll side with the writers. So I fully understand we’re only seeing one side of the argument on your site.
Now then, IMHO, I just don’t think either side has been negotiating on good faith. Neither side has gone in at any time with the idea that this deal can and will get done “this time”. It’s just been a lot of posturing on both sides. Each side trying to belittle the other or making themselves appear to be better than the other. It’s gone beyond childish. This is the problem when dealing with hollywood-type people who have huge egos on all sides.
Either get a deal done or don’t. Both sides need to stop the games and just do it. I’m all for the writers getting the best deal possible, but there has to some sort of negotiation as well.
So you think the entire new media thing was a smokescreen by the AMPTP to prevent further unionization?
That sounds quite plausible. The real expenses the producers would incur by accepting the WGA demands don’t seem to be nearly as high as the AMPTP has been claiming – but the cost of the animation writers unionizing would be significant.
So you think the entire new media thing was a smokescreen by the AMPTP to prevent further unionization?
Yes, absolutely. When they walked away from the table (they, not the WGA) they did so stating that they refused to addressing any of the money issues until the WGA took unionizing other writers off the table. See, the good faith approach would have been to say, “Well, these are the percentages we’re willing to offer on new media, but we don’t want to support unionizing animation and reality programming writers.” But they didn’t do that. Instead they stated they wanted to roll back the residuals we already had, wouldn’t discuss new media, and demanded that further unionization be removed from the table before they would even consider graciously reinstating that which we already had.
It’s a classic case of reversal. They were so busy yelling that further unionziation was of paramount importance to the WGA, they were really tipping their hand that unionizing was the top priority for them.
PAD
So, what about the AMPTP’s arguement that animation and RTV writers have been “traditionally resistant” to unionization, and that expanding the WGA is a case of trying to “claim jurisdiction” over branches of the industry that don’t want to be members?
It seems like a pretty extreme statement to be an outright lie, but then again, forced unionization seems pretty extreme as well. It’s very difficult to see who to believe on that issue.
“Now then, IMHO, I just don’t think either side has been negotiating on good faith. Neither side has gone in at any time with the idea that this deal can and will get done “this time”. “
That doesn’t really seem like bad faith to me. I think it’s standard negotiating to start off asking more than what you’re expecting to settle for. As long as they expect to get closer, that’s reasonable, whether they expect to get all the way or not.
I tell you the truth. I wasn’t in great solidarity with the cause of your union before, but I’m definitely against it now!
The WGA screws over the Golden Globes, which caused people to get laid off and then they give a pass to the NAACP, why? http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/libertas/?p=8263
Screw ’em.
“Because of the historic role the NAACP has played in struggles like ours”
“Who hasn’t been moved by tales of the struggles black screenwriters went through in the Jim Crow south?”
“Please, WGA, please keep trying to tell me about the ‘principle’ involved in all of this.
I’m sitting here right now holding my breath over a job which could change my life — which everyday this dámņëd strike goes on means one more day where any one of the millions of things that kill these deals could happen.
Where’s my waiver? Why can’t I work?”
Now I don’t have a stake in this and I don’t care if there is no more new television or movies, but I do have more than a bit of empathy (where did this empathy come from? I hate it! How do I get rid of this? I hate having empathy for people), more than a large bit of empathy for all those blue-collar types laid off because the shows of all sorts were put on hold.
Even the non-WGA white collar types suffer here and there. I’m not a fan of this chain of events.
“So, what about the AMPTP’s arguement that animation and RTV writers have been “traditionally resistant” to unionization, and that expanding the WGA is a case of trying to “claim jurisdiction” over branches of the industry that don’t want to be members?”
Anyone asked those writers?
“The Simpsons,” “Futurama” and “King of the Hill” are covered by the WGA – mostly because they were making FOX a ton of money and James L. Brooks was pushing hard for it, so they had a bit of leverage – but Pixar, for example, is not. Does that make sense?
I don’t understand your reaction, blue spider. The WGA is inherently wrong because you feel empathy with the people who are unable to go back to work until the strike is over.
The WGA could accept anything the AMPTP offers. The AMPTP could accept the WGAs demands without negotiation. Both actions would put everyone back to work immediately. Laying blame on either side indiscriminately is just silly.
Glad you agree.
THe AMPTP just sucks for screwing the blue collar types over.
The WGA waiver for the NAACP Image Awards does give the impression that it was issued only to prevent bad publicity – but it could well get it now anyway. I wondered why the Hollywood Foreign Press didn’t just hire English speakers in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or elsewhere to write their Golden Globes ceremony – but of course much bad publicity would have been unavoidable.
Article on IMDB about this…
The Hollywood Foreign Press mostly isn’t. Mostly isn’t foreign and mostly isn’t press. It’s a sham organization. The major companies only go along with the Golden Globe awards because it means good press for their movies.
Kevin,
Dude, you really need to read more about how this strike went down. The AMPTP walked out of negotiations, not the WGA. Not as is “we’ve talked for weeks, and there is only so long we can continue to talk.”, but as in “Do what we say. No? Bye.”
Proof of the intention of the AMPTP is that normal negotiations were carried on until the day the AMPTP came out with their “take this, this, this, and this off the table” directive. A mere hour or two later, they already had their press release out to the news media. They types of press releases should take days to finalize, because so many companies have to agree to the wording. That the release was ready to go that quickly shows that it had already been written days before, which would be before the formal resumption of talks. That means they wanted to walk away from the WGA. And they did. The AMPTP was at least 95% of the cause of the strike.
There will be BILLIONS made on the internet over the next few years. The writers, actors, directors, and all the support crews should be entitled to part of it.
evilvolus said:
“It seems like a pretty extreme statement to be an outright lie, but then again, forced unionization seems pretty extreme as well. It’s very difficult to see who to believe on that issue.”
=====
Not so difficult. The WGA did NOT demand forced Unionization. They were asking to be allowed to talk to those work places not already covered about Unionization. The AMPTP might have twisted the word to make it sound as if they were.
Mega-corporations put thousands out of work every year; permanently, not just for the duration of a strike. Where’s your empathy for those people, Blue Spider? Or don’t they count because they are not blue collar workers?
There are always more people affected than those on strike. Happens in every strike. Happens even more often in non-strike times.
Posted by evilvolus at January 18, 2008 03:47 PM
It seems like a pretty extreme statement to be an outright lie, but then again, forced unionization seems pretty extreme as well. It’s very difficult to see who to believe on that issue.
Im not sure if it would be forced. Would not the other writers have a choice in the matter? A vote?
or secret ballet? PAD?
I would be very uncomfortable if the WGA agreed to leave the animation and RS writers alone. To me that would be agreeing to not grow which I think would end up being very counterproductive
Well, the Hollywood Foreign Press may be neither Hollywood, Foreign nor Press, but there are countless English speaking writers who are not American, so they could be hired, should anyone want to do so. Say what you will about the WGA, it has no power to control business transactions with foreign nationals conducted in foreign countries. (Viz, the BBC, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand broadcast industries are carrying on without consulting the WGA.) At the risk of offending a number of people, in what way are American producers and broadcasters obligated to use American labor or do business on U.S. soil?
Commentary om Huffington Post.
Interesting analysis.
To be more precise, the Golden Globes are a sham award. The awards mean little to anyone other than the companies that make the product, the Nitwork that airs them, and the General Public, many of whom are easily duped into believing any press release that gets issued.
I don’t understand your reaction, blue spider.
Then you haven’t been paying attention to blue spider’s posting history. He is relentlessly negative, routinely disagrees with/picks fights with anything I say, he loves to say “screw this/that” and “it blew chunks” (typically in reference to a movie.) I sugest you go on the assumption that blue spider’s initials say it all and move on.
PAD
I dunno, PAD.
The more I think about it, the more the DGA seems irrelevant here, and that the SAG discussions will be the important one for the WGA.
The reason I think this is because a lot of big directors are producers, so there’s a lot of overlap. The DGA may be powerful, but they’re also closest to the AMPTP.
Having foreign writers would not have helped the Globes in the slightest. They ended up with writers, by making it a “news” product. What they didn’t end up with, and wouldn’t have ended up with using foreign writers either, is stars.
I would assume that if a bunch of foreigners threw a party in a foreign country with foreign writers, telling American actors how great they were, quite a few American actors would show up – particularly if there were press coverage. (How many American actors would skip Cannes because of an American strike?) In the case of the Hollywood Foreign Press, the members are not U.S. film and television producers, they are free to applaud whom they want, and they know where to find places and writers that aren’t American.
The WGA has no authority and very little influence when it comes to foreign awards ceremonies. Realistically, the foreign interest in awards shows for American product is probably too low to justify the expense, but there’s no rule against American broadcasters buying foreign content to show in the United States. It may be easy to see through the ruse, but so what
Blue Spider’s unforgivable sin appears to be thinking that the WGA-called strike has something to do with non-writers losing their jobs. I would defend this heresy by pointing out that the WGA-called strike DOES have something to do with non-writers losing their jobs. There’s a lot of room to discuss the AMPTP’s unfair bargaining tactics, but one should admit that the AMPTP didn’t stage the strike or order a lockout: The WGA called the strike – believing its goals were just, but also recognizing that an extended strike would cost ancillary jobs (and accepting that side effect, obviously).
I ahven’t really followed or am too informed on the details of the writers’ strike other then what’s been in the news, but yeah when I heard about the agreement reached with the directors I still couldn’t help but think, “Wait, isn’t alomst the exact type of deal the writers are asking for?”
Some of it is. A lot of it isn’t.
Devil’s in the details…
Honestly, I relent on being negative when it comes to the real-life adventures of Peter David, and his creative works.
But the negativity, that’s a lot more fun.
As for empathy, Alan, I don’t do it often or for many, regardless of who deserves it. So when it pops up I never question why it doesn’t pop up at other times, even when it would be appropriate. I’m comfortable with that only because if I don’t feel for someone, I can hope and believe that someone else will.
Although all assumptions that my patterns and trends are negative… that’s a highly cynical attitude and I don’t subscribe to cynicism. Eric Flint taught me that.
For shite’s sake, who the hëll shows up here to pick a fight with someone unless that someone had something of value to disagree with?
I also find the word “routine” to be funny and highly inappropriate.
Although all assumptions that my patterns and trends are negative… that’s a highly cynical attitude and I don’t subscribe to cynicism. Eric Flint taught me that.
No. It’s not cynical. Cynical is something very specific: It’s a belief that all actions, for good or ill, are motivated by self-interest. When I made the posting, I had actually taken the time to read over a sizable portion of your postings to make my assessment.
I wasn’t cynical. I was simply judging your attitude based on your words. As near as I can tell, you’re not cynical either. You just complain incessantly.
PAD
Im not sure if it would be forced. Would not the other writers have a choice in the matter? A vote?
or secret ballet? PAD?
If there’s a secret ballet involving PAD, I’m against it. I think such a ballet should be completely out in the open.
Preferably involving Dawn’s ballet from “Once More With Feeling.”
Okay, perhaps that’s a bit much…
TWL
Peter, a question:
An Oni editor stated that one of the reasons the TEK JANSEN book was not proceeding was that “According to the WGA, any work Stephen or Rich Dahm (the exec producer and head writer of the show) do on the comic constitutes writing in support of the show. Since the material in the comics is owned by Viacom and their subsidiaries, and since our publishing agreement is also through Viacom, they are not allowed to work on it.”
Is this an accurate reading of the situation, and how far does it go? For instance, would the WGA consider your working on a STAR TREK novel to be the same thing?
Well, if this turn of events does lead to a resolution of the Strike between between the WGA and the AMPTP color me disappointed. We hadn’t even reached the fun part yet were both sides really started to feel the financial pinch and started turning nasty. I wanted to see AMPTP studios backstabbing each other, WGA writers turning on each other violently, vindictively motivated lay-offs, scabs crossing picket lines and McCarthy styled investigations into writers accused of scabbing all leading to the eventual collapse of the SoCal economy.
My god….that would have been entertainment.
In short, I was truly looking forward to watching the entire system burn to the ground. I can’t help but chuckle a little at the idea that wild egos on both sides could ultimately lead to their own mutual destruction. I was really hoping that the strike could potentially last into the 2009 season. At that point we would be looking at radical shifts in the entertainment paradigm. The upfronts had already been canceled and there was already talk of potentially altering the entire pilot season formula.
There is still hope however. Come on AMPTP and WGA, keep sticking it to each other.
An Oni editor stated that one of the reasons the TEK JANSEN book was not proceeding was that “According to the WGA, any work Stephen or Rich Dahm (the exec producer and head writer of the show) do on the comic constitutes writing in support of the show. Since the material in the comics is owned by Viacom and their subsidiaries, and since our publishing agreement is also through Viacom, they are not allowed to work on it.”
Is this an accurate reading of the situation, and how far does it go? For instance, would the WGA consider your working on a STAR TREK novel to be the same thing?
This is entirely news to me. Personally, if it’s true, I don’t agree with it. It’s simply too convoluted reasoning. I doubt it would be remotely applicable to me in any event since I am not associated with Star Trek the way that Colbert is with Tek Janson.
PAD
PAD’s response regarding TEK JANSEN shows a very welcome open-mindedness. I automatically distrust anyone who cleaves to every opinion from a particular authority (…uh, this could get me in trouble with some theologies and parties I didn’t intend to insult right now), although a fairly broad agreement isn’t outrageous. Speaking completely as an outsider, I would think the question about PAD’s own involvement with Star Trek novels would have a great deal to do with two questions – 1. Who is the ultimate owner of Star Trek as an entity? Is it Paramount, against whom PAD is involved in the strike, or some other group, in which Paramount is only one participant? (I think it is more than just Paramount.) 2. Are Star Trek novels really directly in support of the broadcast programming of Star Trek, or are they a different thing entirely – books written for readers, rather than promotional material meant to increase viewership. (I think that although good Star Trek novels do increase interest in the television and film programming they are more directly aimed at readers who wish to read, rather than turn on the TV as soon as possible.) Any demand that writing with any connection to television or film projects be forbidden would be much too broad and unfair. By that sort of thinking, the authors of any original works optioned or adapted for television or film would be forbidden to write anything new, since their continued presence on the shelves would tend to publicize their previous works and projects associated with them.
I’m curious to learn the truth of this claim by the Oni editor.
I just got an email by Marvel promoting “Joe Quesada Returns to The Colbert Report January 29”.
http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.2283.Joe_Quesada_on_THE_COLBERT_REPORT_Jan%7Edot%7E_29
So…um…did he by an chance ask the WGA members that work for Marvel how they might feel about that?
You called it PAD. The WGA announced they were dropping the reality and animation demands. They aren’t giving up but they won’t push for it now. I think with the DGA deal and the force majeur cancelling many existing contracts they felt the need to drop it for now so they can try and end the strike and save jobs
It’s really simple. The writers want more money because the stuff they write is being used in more media because more media exists nowadays, which is fair enough. The Bosses ( ie: the scum-sucking, corporate vampires) don’t want to drop their ever growing profits.
Alistair, a Fair and Balanced post if ever I have seen one. 🙂
Umm. Is it just me or do the double post by Jessica and the ones by Betty and James make no sense? I mean, I’m not claiming any large quantity (or quality) of intelligence but I have no idea what they are about. Not a bit.
They don’t make sense because they’re robo-spam. I’m guessing the idea is to make you so curious what drugs they’re taking that you click on their names.
Marvel has signed an interim agreement with the WGA!
And Lionsgate.
Maybe an agreement with the AMPTP won’t be needed in the end.
I fear me you’re going to have to switch on moderation on this thread…
Well, that’s getting annoying.
Ignore it. We’re working on it. You wouldn’t believe what is NOT getting through
Although there are others who can do this much better – Mark Evanier for example – let me respond to a few of the questions here to the best of my knowledge. I was on the steering committee of the Animation Caucus for the WGA and I know that when a written poll was taken, the vast majority of animation writers said they wanted to be represented by the WGA and not by their current union, local 839. 839 is an animation union primarily representing artists, but because of the way cartoons used to be written in the early days before TV – in storyboards – writers were never separated out. Animation writers primarily came into being when cartoons started to be done for television. As I say most of the writers were already 839 members so for the AMPTP to say writers are resistant to being unionized is a lie. By the way, writers can belong to both 839 and the WGA but the show they are on can only be represented by one union if it’s represented at all. Many shows are non-union so the companies don’t have to pay benefits or residuals. The problem however isn’t the writers, it’s federal law. If a show is already represented by one union a second union cannot go in and unionize it. So even though most writers want to make the change, they can’t. So to answer the question, writers were asked and they said yes they want to be part of the WGA. So what it comes down to is that the WGA can only represent shows that don’t already have other union representation.
The show I co-created with my then producing partner, Craig Miller, was for a company, Bohbot, that had not signed with 839. Through the good graces of our executive producer, Pocket Dragon Adventures actually became the very first animation show to be represented by the WGA. Because of our show we were able to bring in the writers of Simpsons, etc. and they were then able to get a deal. But primarily because they were prime time shows and not Saturday morningor afternoon cartoon shows. We had every animation writer out there trying to work on our show to get into the WGA especially those who weren’t already in 839 as they wanted the WGA medical and pension benefits. That answers the first question about the AMPTP saying animation writers didn’t want to be unionized.
Second, someone said the WGA screwed over the Golden Globes but gave the NAACP a free pass. The Golden Globes and other such awards are given to the industry by the industry to boost the industry. Although these particular awards are a sham, they benefit movie companies by bringing in people to movie theaters and to watch TV shows, normally a good thing, by the way. But in a strike situation you don’t want to add to those profits. The NAACP, the Grammies, etc. however are not award shows produced by the movie/tv industry to benefit the movie/tv industry. They are not involved with the WGA (or SAG) contracts. They are not involved in the MBA (minimum basic agreement)contract discussions. Therefore to allow those shows to go on makes sense. They are not part of the world that is on strike.
Third, and this is more my opinion than basic fact. Someone said the writers want more money because there is more media that makes money. Actually, that’s not totally correct. Writers want a tiny, tiny percentage of new media because in a few years that’s how we’re going to get almost all our TV. Already Apple TV and others allow for instant downloads to be shown on your home TV rather than your computer. In a few years (however long a few may be) TVs will all be hooked up to the internet and we will primarily download our content to our wide screen HD TVs. So let’s backtrack. Currently writers, actors, etc. get a certain residual every time their show is broadcast. For simplicity sake let’s say they get paid one dollar for that show when it’s rebroadcast the first time. Also currently, when that same show is instead made available for download on say ABC.com – which comes complete with commercials you can’t speed past, the writers, actors, etc. get (wait for it!) zero dollars. Zero dollars even though the networks are making money from commercials just like when they are broadcast. So let’s say in X years most TV and movies are delivered by the internet. Under the current deal, writers, actors, etc. will continue to get zero. They will have lost that one dollar they are currently getting because the AMPTP said they don’t want to pay it. They already do pay for re-broadcast, but they are trying to weasel out of doing so in the future when the method of delivery changes. So the writers, actors, etc. are asking for a small percentage of what the companies will make so they don’t lose that one dollar they are currently getting. By the way, when you pay percentages,if you don’t make anything the writers, actors, etc. won’t make anything either. So if the AMPTP is right and there’s no money to be made on the internet why don’t they give the writers, actors, etc. 100% of what’s made. After all, 100% of nothing is nothing. The reason, of course, is that there’s billions to be made and what the AMPTP wants to do is stop paying residuals as they’ve had to do all these years.
To put it another way, if you work in Detroit building cars and your contract said you’d be paid for every gas combustion car you built but one day they decide to start building electric cars only, would you let them say it was all right to no longer pay you even though you still did the work? I don’t think so. TV broadcast over wires, cables, or the internet is still TV being broadcast. Writers, actors, etc. have been paid residuals longer than I’ve been alive and they simply don’t want that stopped.
Does any of what I wrote make any sense?
-Marv
It makes perfect sense, Marv. Thank you for explaining the parts about the animation union and the Golden Globe issue. That was information I hadn’t seen before.
As I say most of the writers were already 839 members so for the AMPTP to say writers are resistant to being unionized is a lie.
I am shocked–SHOCKED–to learn that the AMPTP is being less than candid about something.
PAD
PAD said, “I am shocked–SHOCKED–to learn that the AMPTP is being less than candid about something.”
Only one thing to do, PAD.
Round up the usual suspects.
Rick
“Round up the usual suspects.”
*groan*
The only thing more painful then reading that is knowing that I’m not the one who came up with it.
“The only thing more painful then reading that is knowing that I’m not the one who came up with it.”
Would it make you feel any better if I told you that at some point in the future you will travel back in time to earlier today and suggest to me that I post that phrase?
Well you did/will. You never got around to explaining why you decided to visit me instead of carrying through with your original plan to visit the filming of Night of the Living Dead (and maybe snag yourself a part as an extra), but that’s what you did. I mean what you will do.
Rick