So he said that Syria has to get the Hezballoh/Hizballoh/Jew-hating bášŧárdš to “knock this šhìŧ off.” So what? Syria SHOULD get them to knock this šhìŧ off. Leaders of terrorist countries and organizations use vile and hateful speech to denounce Israel and describe their intentions, and the media is making a cause celebre because the president of the United States said they should knock this šhìŧ off? I can just see the presidential apology: “I’m sorry for saying that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock this šhìŧ off. That could possibly have been misinterpreted since they treat the Israelis and human lives like šhìŧ, so they might have thought that I was encouraging them to kill Jews. What I should have said is that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock it the fûçk off.”
PAD
(Edited 12:16 PM to get the quote right)
• 
Actually, Persia officially came to be called Iran in 1935, so it’s a little more than 20 years. More like 71.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/806268.stm
Note I didn’t use Wikipedia as my source. 🙂
Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance bore fruit for India because Britain had a conscience to which such a movement could appeal. Hamas and Hezbollah are attacking a nation that has already made unilateral concessions in the form of abandoning occupied territories. Those groups do NOT have a conscience to which you can appeal through non-violent resistance.
There was an interesting story in one of those What If type miltary fiction book that had Ghandi and Nehru using their tactics on a Nazi occupying ofrce in India and it ended..well, badly. The nazi’s didn’t give a rat’s ášš about the world wide outcry thye got from shooting up demonstrators and, while the German commander admired Ghandi for his bravery, he didn’t pause for a moment before casually ordering his immediate execution.
I guess the Lexapro really has evened out my moods and made me more rational.
Don’t know if you’re joking but I’m a fan of Lexapro. Anyone with mild depression, check it out.
El Hombre:
1. Answered in your ownpost.
2. Tanks would require an actual invasion and have the disadvantge of being far more easily taken out. The image of hezballah firing anti tank weapons from behind school and apartment walls and the Israelis blowing up said walls, with all the civilain deaths that would occur…
3. I see your point but would air superiority alone ensure that no flights could get through? And it also frees up those planes that would have had to be looking for and shooting down resupply planes. Now they can focus on the mission at hand; killing hezballah.
I’ll have to look up some of the other stuff you’re mentioned–they do sound unnecesary. Any links?
lorshas– although I’ve disagreed with almost every point you’ve made I am very interested in hearing your point of view. We don’t get much chance to often talk to Saudis. I was surprised, for example, to hear you say that Saudi propaganda is so pro-USA since everything we see here from Saudi Arabia–the textbook translations, the stuff they send to the mosques in the US–are so anti-western. What do you see that is slanted pro-USA, I’m genuinely interested. (And though I doubt we will ever agree on the larger issues I admire you for coming into the lion’s den, so to speak.)
Actually, it has to do with Wahabist beign the most extreme, hardcore interpretation of sunni Islam. Sunni and Shia (Both Iran and Hezbolah are Shia) dont like each other, but wahabists actually hate shia with a passion. Shia minorities have it bad usually in sunni countries, moreso in Saudi Arabia, where wahabism is the official branch of Islam.
remember, Osama Bin Laden, Al Quaeda, Al Zarquawi and the Taliban are all wahabist.
Would it’ve been so much different to just get there with IDF tanks and cut the supply without destroying the infraestructures?
That depends on whether you believe Israel should be forced to risk the lives of their soldiers for something that can be accomplished by air.
– How is it proportionate to bomb whole buildings full of people in Beirut when Hezbolah bases are in South Lebanon?
Because Hezbollah has their members in the Lebanese government, which is based on Beirut.
It’s the same as the fact that each state in the US votes for Congressmen, and those Congressmen work in DC, not the state they were elected in.
he Beirut lighthouse, the fisher’s harbour in the christian part of town, Airport
Transportation – a lighthouse lets you know where the shore is, the harbor allows boats in easily, airport allows aircraft in easily.
the country was called Persia until 20something years ago…thats not long dead 😛
Anything that happened before I was born might as well be. 😉
Seriously though, how many of you actually sit here and, when talking about those nutjob fanatics, refer them to Persians instead of Iranians?
And on the other hand, how many of you refer to Arabs instead of Jordanians, Saudi Arabians, and so forth?
Posted by: Den at July 20, 2006 02:21 PM
Note I didn’t use Wikipedia as my source. 🙂
GAH! Will everyone get off my back about Wikipedia?
Bill Mulligan:
So in 1 you mean its acceptable to inflict the same psychological torture you use on the terrorists on the civilians. Is that what you say?
In 2 you confuse Hezbolah with Hamas. Take note that when the power plant was bombed, Hamas was still keeping its unilateral (we use that word a lot here) cease fire. Also, that Hamas means are far more scarce than thos eof Hezbolah (that have over 20 years of experience when it comes to blowing up tanks).
in 3…the distances in the area are minimal. Gaza is just a few km long and even less wide. Anything coming to Gaza would get detected and shot down from air without even having to scrammble any fighter, because they are already in the air. Any cargo plane would have close to nil chance of getting in but still Israel prefers to destroy yet another infraestructure.
lorshas, I’d like to echo and amplify Bill Mulligan’s sentiments. I disagree with you… in a few cases, you’ve made me angry… but I don’t hate you. Not even close.
We may be butting heads here, you and I, but it’s better to bûŧŧ hëádš verbally than physically.
And I will be the first to admit that our government has meddled and interfered in your region, in some cases to disastrous effect. I do not believe we should apologize for our support of Israel, nor can all of your region’s problems be blamed on us. But to the extent that we have caused problems, it behooves us as U.S. citizens to listen to those we have aggrieved and to have the courage to try to change our own government’s policies.
On the flip side, however, please be mindful that it cuts both ways. Saudi Arabia has indeed been a breeding ground for and supporter of terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda. Whatever our sins, the attacks of September 11, 2001, were unwarranted and evil. I’m not saying that you personally are responsible, or that Saudi Arabia is our enemy, per se. But there are elements within your country that aided and abetted those horrible attacks.
Neither of our nations is truly innocent, lorshas.
I do not believe that Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Qaeda are valid answers to your problems. Supporting or tolerating such groups will bring naught but suffering to everyone involved.
I refuse to give up the hope that all peoples of this Earth can someday learn to live together in relative harmony. It may be far-away hope… and a slim one… but what’s life without hope?
Craig J
Most of your awnsers to my questions consider them to be commented with what I told Bill Mulligan. The rest:
“Because Hezbollah has their members in the Lebanese government, which is based on Beirut.”
So you bomb a building full of people so you can kill a political representative (an elected one), instead of focusing on a military target. Is that how you think terrorism is beaten?
“Transportation – a lighthouse lets you know where the shore is, the harbor allows boats in easily, airport allows aircraft in easily.”
Shia militia using the harbour in an area the christian phalanx control? …
Some random replies:
Don’t know if you’re joking but I’m a fan of Lexapro. Anyone with mild depression, check it out.
Actually, I wasn’t really joking. Depression is a bìŧçh and I think it did carry out into some of my previous postings.
GAH! Will everyone get off my back about Wikipedia?
Hey, I put up a smilely, what more do you want?
Shia militia using the harbour in an area the christian phalanx control? …
My guess is that since IDF’s goal is not to just stop the current attacks, but to limit Hezbollah’s ability to rearmed itself. They may be expecting that Syria and Iran could use the harbor to bring weapons into Lebanon. Same reason why they bombed the Beirut airport.
I still find it morally troubling myself, but such is war. The people that suffer the most from it are the ones who are caught in the middle.
the country was called Persia until 20something years ago…thats not long dead 😛
According to the dreaded Wikipedia:
In the twentieth century, a dispute arose over whether Iran or Persia is the correct name for the country. On 21 March 1935, the ruler of the country, Reza Shah Pahlavi, issued a decree asking foreign delegates to use the term Iran in formal correspondence in accordance with the fact that “Persia” was a term used by Western peoples for the country called “Iran” in Persian. After some scholars protested, his successor, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, announced in 1959 that both Persia and Iran were acceptable, and could be used interchangeably. The 1979 Revolution led to the establishment of the present day theocracy that is officially called the Islamic Republic of Iran, but the noun Persia and the adjective Persian are still commonly used.
Just don’t call them late for Salat!
So in 1 you mean its acceptable to inflict the same psychological torture you use on the terrorists on the civilians. Is that what you say?
Um, your exact question was “What is the purpose of low altitude sonic booms over populated areas in Gaza?” And then you answered your question. Don’t blame me for it.
At any rate, look at the comparison– Israelis “inflict” the “psychological torture” of sonic booms. Their ememies do the same…only the booms are followed by the explosions, and the shrapnel and the blood and stuff. Planes vs rockets. Let’s put it up to a vote, which would you rather have?
You think Hezballah would use any planes if they had them (and brains enough to fly them)for the purpose of producing sonic booms?
In 2 you confuse Hezbolah with Hamas. Take note that when the power plant was bombed, Hamas was still keeping its unilateral (we use that word a lot here) cease fire.
From Time Magazine:
Deterred from attacking by arrests and assassinations, Hamas militants kept a cease-fire from March 2005 until last June, when they began firing rockets again and then, on June 25, decided to try another, daring tactic: they emerged from a tunnel dug under the Gaza fence to kill two Israeli soldiers and nab Corporal Gilad Shalit. Instead of talking about a peace deal, the Palestinian Authority found itself dealing with a rain of Israeli bombardments and border incursions.
Please tell me where Time got its facts wrong. Because I don’t consider firing rockets and kidnapping soldiers to be what I, a humble speakerof the english language, consider a “cease-fire”. (from another part of the article–“Palestinian militants have been regularly firing homemade Qassam rockets, a Hamas specialty, into Israel from Gaza–some 200 in June and 100 so far in July.”)
this can be found at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1214951-1,00.html
(I think it would be helpful if those making claims that are verifiable would provide the approprite links, so that all may judge for themselves).
Den, yeah, depression bites. For me it was mild, I guess (it’s hard to jusdge these things–what is mild for one may be devestating for another) but the main thing was that I was having a hard time enjoying what was a really good time for me. I was seeing success in several parts of my life but not getting anything out of it, the few negative aspects overwhelming the many positives. I hate the very idea of mind altering drugs but things have been much much better since starting Lexapro a few years back. A few side effects but nothing serious (email me at kaiju@aol.com if you ever want to talk about it).
With all the incurable crazies walking around this world the rest of us have to do whatever it takes to stay sane!
Is that how you think terrorism is beaten?
As many others have already stated, if terrorists are going to hide themselves among the general population, bad things will happen to said population sooner or later.
Terrorists do not follow the rules of war. Israel, as far as I know, is, even if that unfortunately means civilians are killed in the process.
And before you take that as some sort of tacit approval of what Israel is doing, it isn’t. I’m just as sick of hearing about civilian deaths from what the US military is doing in Iraq, where more civilians are dying than terrorists.
I can only hope that some good comes of it all in the long run, because nothing good is being gained in the short term.
Shia militia using the harbour in an area the christian phalanx control? …
Umm, yeah. Why is it so far-fetched?
Oh, and for the record, there’s an article on Yahoo right now talking about how Iran wants to become a major player in the Middle East, and specifically refers to them as a non-Arab state.
So, it does happen.
Time reported ” … on June 25, (Hamas) decided to try another, daring tactic: they emerged from a tunnel dug under the Gaza fence to kill two Israeli soldiers and nab Corporal Gilad Shalit.”
Funny, they never mention that the day before Israel went into Gaza and “detained” (Israelis never kidnap) 2 Palestinians who were alledgedly members of Hamas. Maybe, Hamas was responding to the Israeli provocation, surely not!
Also it is reported on Ynet that an Senior IDF officer as saying that the Israelis have significantly infiltrated Hizbullah so maybe the Israelis were not that surprised when Hizbullah kidnapped (Hizbullah never detains) 2 Israeli soldiers.
Well, I am now contributing to some terrible thread drift, but I once suffered from severe depression. I never tried to kill myself but spent much time contemplating and planning such an act. I can only describe the experience as crippling.
Through a combination of medical help and support from friends and family I was able to make it through that awful, bleak period of my life.
It’s hard to tell someone who is depressed to get help, because when you’re severely depressed you don’t give a dámņ about anything. You think you’re worthless. But if anyone reading this is suffering from prolonged feelings of sadness, worthelessness, hopelessness, what have you… find it within yourself to get up and get some help. It’s worth it.
To the loon who ranted about how the US supplies Israel with its weapons, here’s a partial list of some of ther designed/made in Iasrael weapons systems which equip their front line forces.
Merkava Mk-4 main battle tank
Sharaf attack helicopter.
Arrow – anti-missile system
Zahavan, Dalila and other pilotless planes.
F-15I (Israeli version of the F-15, incorporating Israeli avionics and carrying, among other things, the Israeli Python 3 and Python 4 Air-to-Air missiles.)
(Source – IDF and IAF sites)
So I’d say claiming the US furnishes their arms, or even a majority of them is nonsense.
“Funny, they never mention that the day before Israel went into Gaza and “detained” (Israelis never kidnap) 2 Palestinians who were alledgedly members of Hamas. Maybe, Hamas was responding to the Israeli provocation, surely not!”
It’s not the average American’s fault that they are ignorant of both sides of the story. For whatever reasons, the US media ignores for the most part the Israeli actions that provoke the Arabs to strike back at them. The Israeli gunboat that shelled a Gaza beach killing an entire family having a picnic in June is NEVER mentioned as the provocation for Hamas attacking less than 2 weeks later.
“To the loon who ranted about how the US supplies Israel with its weapons…..So I’d say claiming the US furnishes their arms, or even a majority of them is nonsense.”
Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.
Funny, they never mention that the day before Israel went into Gaza and “detained” (Israelis never kidnap) 2 Palestinians who were alledgedly members of Hamas. Maybe, Hamas was responding to the Israeli provocation, surely not!
There’s a difference in taking two suspects into custody and crossing a border and attacking soldiers (killing several in the process).
It’s not the average American’s fault that they are ignorant of both sides of the story. For whatever reasons, the US media ignores for the most part the Israeli actions that provoke the Arabs to strike back at them. The Israeli gunboat that shelled a Gaza beach killing an entire family having a picnic in June is NEVER mentioned as the provocation for Hamas attacking less than 2 weeks later.
I’m sure you’re aware that it isn’t definite that the gunboat was the culprit in the explosion (although it remains a possibility.)
Considering that the population of Israel is smaller than that of New York City, duh.
This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.
Considering that the population of Israel is smaller than that of New York City, duh.
“Time reported ” … on June 25, (Hamas) decided to try another, daring tactic: they emerged from a tunnel dug under the Gaza fence to kill two Israeli soldiers and nab Corporal Gilad Shalit.”
Funny, they never mention that the day before Israel went into Gaza and “detained” (Israelis never kidnap) 2 Palestinians who were alledgedly members of Hamas. Maybe, Hamas was responding to the Israeli provocation, surely not!
Also it is reported on Ynet that an Senior IDF officer as saying that the Israelis have significantly infiltrated Hizbullah so maybe the Israelis were not that surprised when Hizbullah kidnapped (Hizbullah never detains) 2 Israeli soldiers.
Ooookay. So we should call it “detaining” when they kill two soldiers and take another one…somewhere.
I trust those who are so concerened for the well being of those in Gunatanimo will be likewise certain to pressure Hamas to see to it that Gilad Shalit is treated well. Has access to a lawyer. Visits from the red cross. religiously sensitive food choice. Etc.
As for whether or not the Israelis were surprised that their men were kidnapped…are you seriously suggesting that they knew it would happen and let it happen so they could retaliate? You’re not one of those people who think that all the Jews who worked in the world trade towers stayed home on 9/11, are you?
Posted by: Bill Maxwell at July 20, 2006 05:23 PM
It’s not the average American’s fault that they are ignorant of both sides of the story. For whatever reasons, the US media ignores for the most part the Israeli actions that provoke the Arabs to strike back at them. The Israeli gunboat that shelled a Gaza beach killing an entire family having a picnic in June is NEVER mentioned as the provocation for Hamas attacking less than 2 weeks later.
May I ask why you decided to omit the fact that Israel was shelling an area they believed was being used by Palestinians to fire rockets into Western Negev?
For those of you who want to judge things for yourself, here’s a link to the dreaded Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast
The entry contains links to numerous newspaper articles about the incident. It’s a bit more complex than Bill Maxwell would have you believe.
I tired posting this earlier but it didn’t go through, I guess. From Bill Maher;
…I have to say, watching George Bush talk about Israel the last week has reminded me of a feeling that I hadn’t felt in so long I forgot what it felt like: the feeling of pride when your president says what you want your president to say, especially in a matter that chokes you up a bit. I surrender my credentials as Bush exposer – from the very beginning – to no man, but on Israel, I love it that a U.S. president doesn’t pretend Arab-Israeli conflict is an even-steven proposition. Lots of ethnic peoples, probably most, have at one time or another lost some territory; nobody’s ever completely happy with their borders; people move and get moved, which is why the 20th century saw the movement of tens if not hundreds of millions of refugees in countries around the world. There was no entity of Arabs called “Palestine” before Israel made the desert bloom. If those 600,000 original Palestinian refugees had been handled with maturity by their Arab brethren, who had nothing but space to put them, they could have moved on — the way Germans, Czechs, Poles, Chinese and everybody else has, including, of course, the Jews.
But I digress. I really wanted to say that, for all those who accuse the likes of myself and the birthday girl of being unpatriotic, or hating America first, the feeling I’ve had watching Israel defend herself and a US president defend Israel (a country that is held to a standard for “restraint” that no other country ever is asked to meet, but that’s another story) just reminds me how wrong that is. I LOVE being on the side of my president, and mouthing “You go, boy” when he gets it right. He just, outside of this, almost never does.
I rarely agree with Maher and when I do I still don’t like his attitude but it’s been nice to see people on both sides of the aisle seeing eye to eye on this.
Well, Maher now joins the ranks of people like Den, who say it better than I could.
Although Maher is oversimplifying the Palestinian situation a bit. Prior to the creation of The British Mandate of Palestine, it’s true that there was no official Palestinian state in that area. It was in fact part of the Ottoman Emprie. That said, the area was unofficially referred to as “Palestine” and the people there did identify themselves as “Palestinian.”
Nevertheless, Maher is correct. Throughout history, justly or unjustly, lands have changed hands. People have been displaced and had to move on.
Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah don’t really want to solve the Palestinian problem. They fight because it’s all they know. Killing Israelis is their raison d’etre. They cling to the non-existent hope that they can wipe Israel off the map because it gives them an excuse to continue the killing.
After all, if they were to capitalize on any of the numerous opportunities Israel has given them to create a new Palestinian state and a viable future for the Palestinian people, they’d have to take responsibility. They’d have to stop pointing fingers at everyone else and find a way to provide for security and economic growth and all of the difficult and sometimes tedious tasks that responsible governments must contend with.
So instead, they walk away from the table when Israel offers them 95% percent of Gaza and the West Bank. They step up the hostilities against Israel when that nation unilaterally relinquishes territory it won in battle against enemies who tried and failed to drive Israel into oblivion. And people like Bill Maxwell and michael j. norton and El hombre Malo and lorshas and so many others advance all sorts of paralogistic arguments in a vain attempt to excuse this.
But the bottom line is that the violence will continue as long as there are childish people who insist on fighting for that which is not possible: the destruction of Israel, and its replacement by a new Palestine.
That saddens me, because the Palestinians could have a homeland again. They could have a place to build anew and forge a destiny of growth and strength and hope, instead of one of constant violence to no good end.
Steve Jones
Woo! Let those conspiracy theories fly!
Here’s a conspiracy of my own, based on the postings made in this thread: I’m starting to doubt that Steve Jones and Bill Maxwell are unique individuals, but are in fact the same, less than sane person who apparently believes in the Great Jewish Conspiracy.
I have no real evidence to back this up, but it’s good for laughs, isn’t it?
Well he wuldn’t have to do that. Anti-semites flock to any tragedy to claim it as part of the Great Jew Conspiracy. They are attracted to disasters like flies to šhìŧ.
Me, I just blame global warming.
“So instead, they walk away from the table when Israel offers them 95% percent of Gaza and the West Bank. They step up the hostilities against Israel when that nation unilaterally relinquishes territory it won in battle against enemies who tried and failed to drive Israel into oblivion. And people like Bill Maxwell and michael j. norton and El hombre Malo and lorshas and so many others advance all sorts of paralogistic arguments in a vain attempt to excuse this.”
In what way, Sir, have I tried to “excuse” terrorist attacks?
There is an alarming tendency to identify those who disagree with the methods Israel use to end with Terrorism with those who actually support terrorism. All Ive been saying so far is that, for many reasons, I think Israel is choosing the wrong path. Also I provided the links in wich Israeli comentators, most prominently Shlomo Ben-Ami (whom I found so often quoted here in Spain because he is a fluent spanish speaker) exposed the same oppinion.
I have also commented on how I think the suffering of civilians this course of action have caused is disproportionate and, more important, have nothing to do with the actual goal of taking out the terrorists. I have a problem with some here who seem to think these civilians and terorists are the same, or at least, that a palestinian or lebanese civilian is not as much of a victim as any Israeli. That line of thinking justify any number of deaths if to prevent the lose of Israeli life. “Hey, its War!” say some.
Well, it shouldnt be.
One does not wage war on terrorists. You wage war on nations, on armies. If you declare war on a terrorist group, you are saying theyre not terrorists but soldiers, and you are saying the civilian deaths are justified because “its them or us”, while you should consider those civilians a third party in the middle of all. Because thats what they are.
How many innocent lifes are you willing to take to save one Israeli. As many as necesary some would say, when “none” is the correct awnser. That is why you dont use war tactics on a terrorist organization, because the risk of blowing a van full of fleeing civilians are too high. Terrorists are closer to the Mafia than to an Army, and I dont think anyone here would have seen with good eyes Police blowing up an apartment building in New Jersey because someone named Gotti lived in the third floor.
With Terrorists you use police and intelligence methods, not artillery. But it seems that to think that makes me some kind of distant cousin to Mengele.
Anti-semites flock to any tragedy to claim it as part of the Great Jew Conspiracy.
Ahhhhh, the race card! I was wondering when “Anti-semite” was going to be pulled out of the trick bag to describe anyone who disagrees with Israel’s crimes. Isn’t it so convenient to hide your villainy behind your religion, sort of like what you accuse those awful Muslim extremists of?
Oops, there’s that mirror-image thing again!
Isn’t it so convenient to hide your villainy behind your religion
WTF?
Wow, you’re beginning to monologue like a character in a poorly written melodrama.
I’ve asked before. Allow me to ask again:
Pretty much everyone here who has stated support for Israel has also admitted that Israel has made some wrong-headed mistakes in the past (and present) and/or share some culpability with the tensions arising from the Palestinian issue.
Tell me, Mr. Maxwell — do you believe that the Palestinians and larger Arab community have made or are making any mistakes and/or share responsibility for the problems in the region? Or do you sincerely believe it’s all entirely Israel’s fault?
Posted by: El hombre Malo at July 20, 2006 07:34 PM
In what way, Sir, have I tried to “excuse” terrorist attacks?
You did so in the “This is just NOT gonna end well” thread when you wrote:
“Both sides have reasons to feel a victim, and most arabs would renounce violence if they would see those reasons dissapear.”
There is an alarming tendency to identify those who disagree with the methods Israel use to end with Terrorism with those who actually support terrorism.
There is an irritating tendency by people like you to conveniently forget what you’ve written when you are faced with a superior argument.
All Ive been saying so far is that, for many reasons, I think Israel is choosing the wrong path. Also I provided the links in wich Israeli comentators, most prominently Shlomo Ben-Ami (whom I found so often quoted here in Spain because he is a fluent spanish speaker) exposed the same oppinion.
You know, just because Shlomo Ben-Ami agrees with you means nothing. An illogical argument is an illogical argument, no matter who advances it.
I have also commented on how I think the suffering of civilians this course of action have caused is disproportionate and, more important, have nothing to do with the actual goal of taking out the terrorists.
Yes. And other people have pointed out to you, repeatedly, that Hamas and Hezbollah have a practice of hiding weaponry and fighters in civilian population centers. Terrorists are using the same roads as the civilians. Terrorists are getting their electricity from the same power plants as civilians. Terrorists are using the same infrastructure as civilians.
I have a problem with some here who seem to think these civilians and terorists are the same, or at least, that a palestinian or lebanese civilian is not as much of a victim as any Israeli.
And I have a problem with you repeating the same simplistic arguments over and over again, as though merely repeating something gives it any more validity. Again: terrorists use the same infrastructure as civilians. They hide amongst civilians. THEY endanger the civilians BY DOING SO.
That line of thinking justify any number of deaths if to prevent the lose of Israeli life. “Hey, its War!” say some.
Well, it shouldnt be.
One does not wage war on terrorists. You wage war on nations, on armies. If you declare war on a terrorist group, you are saying theyre not terrorists but soldiers, and you are saying the civilian deaths are justified because “its them or us”, while you should consider those civilians a third party in the middle of all. Because thats what they are.
As has been pointed out already, Hezbollah is actually quite popular with the Lebanese people. Hezbollah even occupies 23 seats in the Lebanese parliament. The idea that the poor Lebanese are “caught in the middle” is hogwash. What they are doing is crying, “I should not have to suffer the consequences of our support for Hezbollah!”
Which is a bit like saying, “I shouldn’t have to get wet because I refuse to come out of the rain.”
How many innocent lifes are you willing to take to save one Israeli.
How many times must Israel be attacked after making gestures of peace before they are allowed in your eyes to defend themselves?
As many as necesary some would say, when “none” is the correct awnser.
In an ideal world, yes. But in the real world, it would be morally wrong of the Israeli government to continue to allow its own people to be killed by Hamas and Hezbollah in order to make you feel better.
That is why you dont use war tactics on a terrorist organization, because the risk of blowing a van full of fleeing civilians are too high. Terrorists are closer to the Mafia than to an Army, and I dont think anyone here would have seen with good eyes Police blowing up an apartment building in New Jersey because someone named Gotti lived in the third floor.
I don’t know what organized crime looks like in your country, but in my country organized criminals don’t have the capacity to shoot rockets at us. So your analogy completely and utterly fails.
With Terrorists you use police and intelligence methods, not artillery.
Wrong. When a nation knowingly and willingly harbors terrorists, as Lebanon has done, you hold them responsible. Doing so gives the terrorists fewer and fewer places to hide.
But it seems that to think that makes me some kind of distant cousin to Mengele.
Oh, please, stop being such a baby. I never called you anything of the sort. I’m merely pointing out the patent illogic of your arguments.
Posted by: Bill Maxwell at July 20, 2006 08:19 PM
Ahhhhh, the race card! I was wondering when “Anti-semite” was going to be pulled out of the trick bag to describe anyone who disagrees with Israel’s crimes. Isn’t it so convenient to hide your villainy behind your religion, sort of like what you accuse those awful Muslim extremists of?
Oops, there’s that mirror-image thing again!
Please don’t fool yourself into thinking that it’s escaped our notice that you have yet to once address any of the gaping holes we’ve exposed in your arguments. Because it hasn’t escaped us. Continuing to call people names won’t cover up the stunning illogic of your screeds.
Isn’t it so convenient to hide your villainy behind your religion, sort of like what you accuse those awful Muslim extremists of?
Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve got two piss-poor assumptions going here:
A) That Bill Mulligan is Jewish.
B) That it’s taught to Jewish children all over the world that they must wipe other religions off the face of the earth.
Bill Mulligan isn’t Jewish???
Next thing you know, you’re going to try to convince me that “Mulligan” is an Irish surname.
Craig, you’re such a pip. 🙂
it’s been nice to see people on both sides of the aisle seeing eye to eye on this.
Hardly.
Bill Myers:
When I say “Both sides have reasons to feel a victim, and most arabs would renounce violence if they would see those reasons dissapear” …where do you see an excuse for terrorism? I was speaking of the support terrorist groups and militias enjoy in Palestine due to people feeling them beign aggraviated. That doesnt excuse terrorist, I just point to one of the origins of the phenomenon in my opinion. I have stated many times what I think of the terrorists attacks, both past and present, and on the right Israel has to defend itself. I just disagree on the way it does that and the impact it has on civilians.
“There is an irritating tendency by people like you to conveniently forget what you’ve written when you are faced with a superior argument.”
I remember what I have written. You, obviously have either not read it all or fabricated a meaning on your own. Or maybe its just my english is not that good.
“You know, just because Shlomo Ben-Ami agrees with you means nothing. An illogical argument is an illogical argument, no matter who advances it.”
Well, for me it does. When this guy, who is obviously an expert in the matter we are discussing gives his oppinions, I listen. I dont take his words as godspell, but since they validate what Ive read other people say, including many Israeli journalists, I tend to think there might be a chance its not crazy to think that way. Or maybe its just a virus we all got that make us think that way. But please, tell me where am I beign illogical.
” Again: terrorists use the same infrastructure as civilians. They hide amongst civilians. THEY endanger the civilians BY DOING SO.”
And again, if the military knows the terrorists are hidden among civilians, they should change tactics to avoid the civilians to suffer more than whats strictly necesary. To throw a missile at a car on a crowded street because there is a terrorist inside, is a criminal act. It simply saves the Israeli the time and effort to target that guy on a different way, at the cost of civilian life. So yes, they are scumbags willing to sacrifice innocents to their cause, they endanger civilians by doing what they do near them. But that doesnt make it different; someone is willing to kill innocents to put that dog out. All because you use a mentality of war when dealing with people who are not soldiers but, basically, criminals.
“The idea that the poor Lebanese are “caught in the middle” is hogwash. What they are doing is crying, “I should not have to suffer the consequences of our support for Hezbollah!””
While there are many who support and vote for Hezbolah, to put all lebanese in the same bag is just too convenient. As I asked before; How does targeting Hezbolah’s traditional enemies, christians and sunni, contribute to erradicate the terrorist group? How does bombing Beirut civil infraestructures and neighbourghoods, in the hands of a pro-western goverment, help any military tactic?
But, of course, if one vote someone who latter does something terrible to someone else, one should expect to suffer vengeance and to see their family dead. ¿no?
In my country, ETA has a political wing that gets 10-13% of votes in Basque country. But police dont dare kill civilians when trying to get a terrorist, under the assumption they migh have voted for them. And you know what? things seem to get better every year. And yes, there is adifference of proportion, but the basic idea is the same; If you kill an innocent while trying to get the bad guy, the terrorists will instrumentalize that in their favour. And even if only 100 people listen to them and only 10 believe what they say, you have achieved little in the way of ending the whole šhìŧ.
It works. It takes time and it make your focrces vulnerable to attack, but long term it works. Israel have been trying to pound terrorist groups into submission for decades and have achieved nothing. While I believe the land devolutions to be insuficient, I think that is more in the right track. If you have to bomb a launching site, bomb it. But dont bomb an apartment building to get a couple of guys, because unless there is an inmediate treath, the civilians will only ask “isnt there another way to do this?”. And some will fall prey to what terrorist say and the violence perpetuate itself.
“I don’t know what organized crime looks like in your country, but in my country organized criminals don’t have the capacity to shoot rockets at us. So your analogy completely and utterly fails.”
As i said before, no one would object to bombing a launching site. Even if that causes civilian deaths, its justified because it stops an inmediate treath. What I talk is about dismantlin the terrorist organization, which is very much like a criminal one. As you have said, terrorists use the crowd to disguise themselve so you either kill the whole crowd or use intelligence methods to find where the guys are, see who else is dirty and kill/capture them. If you drop a bomb you sure scare the hëll out of people. Normal people. You may even kill the guy. But thats it. And that might be enough for you today, but tomorrow theres gonna be a new one because thats how it works.
If Israel would have worked with the pro western goverment of Lebanon, who is just one year old and had already pushed Israel old enemy Syria out of its borders, I am sure hezbolah would have had it much tougher and Lebanese people would have suffered less.
“I’m merely pointing out the patent illogic of your arguments.”
No, you disagree with my arguments, but you have not proven any of them illogic. I dont say yours are illogic, just innaceptable to me because I believe war is not the way to deal with terrorism. Both for ethical and practical reasons, as I have expressed. But you equate this to apologizing terrorism. It is you who attack me and the motives you presume I have, rather than the ideas I defend.
As I said in this and the previous thread, I believe Israel to be the most advanced society of the region. I do not believe its military success is due to foreighn support, like some here suggest, but rather to the strong national spirit they have created and the determination of the israelis to exist as a state. Like Mario vargas Llosa, I believe Israel model of society is right now a model for all emerging nations. But for all these reasons I believe Israel should have higher standarts when it comes to the use of force over civilians. A prosperous Palestine is a Palestine less likely to engage in violence towards its more powerful neighbour, and for that Israel should understand that keeping infraestructures intact is actually investing in peace. Poor, desperate people with no running water or electricity is not submissive but rather quite beligerant. This just state the obvious and it doesnt excuse terrorism.
Any healthy, functioning group should recognize the evils and wrongness of terrorism. The fact that some don’t is truly mindboggling. The fact that many actively hope their children are the next suicide bomber is unthinkable.
Terorrists, and those who support terrorists are not victimes, they are perpetrators and thos complicit in terror. Poor people do not have to be criminals, murderers, or those who support murderers.
Until they change their hearts, there will be no peace. Doesn’t matter how much talk, land give backs, or anything. People who want your destruction see that as nothing but weakness. Hard people understand nothing but hardness. Negotiations give them time to rebuild and expand their hate, appeasement simply makes them bolder. War helps stave things off for a time, though it only buys some time, but it does eliminate a threat for awhile.
The only time there will be peace is when people do not want to destroy Israles, kill Jews, and start blaming and expecting more from their own governments. Because, for the most part, its their own culture and governments that have completely failed them, and Israel, the West, and the United States have been made out to be convienent scapegoats for every problem they have, thta have allowed a proud people and history with a long culture to stagnate in a cesspool of nothingness, with little to add to the world in terms of culture, science, political theory, entertainment, business, except oil and that’s about it.
When they grow up and join us in the 21st century, (instead of modeling themselves off the 15th), there will be peace, and people can reasonably negotiate and work things out with other people.
As long as its the “The jews did this” “the jews are scum” “the jews are behind everything” “The Great Satan” “the little Satan”, the hatred of many stands revealed and no negotiations will do anything but create more problems in the future.
One does not wage war on terrorists. You wage war on nations, on armies.
That’s a good point but when a nation is used by terrorists as a base or even worse, actively supports terrorists, what then?
With Terrorists you use police and intelligence methods, not artillery. But it seems that to think that makes me some kind of distant cousin of Mengela
Ok, settle down, nobody is accusing you of that. I disagree with your take on the issue but you’re obviously an intelligent guy.
Ahhhhh, the race card! I was wondering when “Anti-semite” was going to be pulled out of the trick bag to describe anyone who disagrees with Israel’s crimes. Isn’t it so convenient to hide your villainy behind your religion, sort of like what you accuse those awful Muslim extremists of?
Bill Mulligan:Jew. A member of the very very lost tribe of Israel, I guess. Sure an’ I remember me ancestors, Shlomo and Hadassah Mulligan, kvetching about the poor quality of the corned beef and gefilte fish bagels available on the Emerald Isle…
Yeah, I’m real Jewish. And I hide my villainy behind it! Moo-who-who-hwah-ha-ha! I feel like twirling my mustache while I entrap the good guy in a needlessly complicated death device, offering him ample time to escape and spoil my malefic plans for malfeasance. I laugh, laugh at you puny mortals who bow before me like so many ants! Oh wait, those are actual ants. Ðámņ. I have to stop eating at the keyboard…but it matters not! Soon it is YOU who will be eating at the keyboard of my evil…um. Anyway.
Bill Maxwell
Hardly.
Umm, and what does this prove, exactly?
As Bill and Bill know, I generally like Ted Rall and what he says. But now and then, like with this cartoon, I have nfc what point he’s trying to make.
(And on this subject, I think Rall has a good grasp of many of the problems facing many of the Muslim nations of the Middle East and Asia… but Israel? Not quite as well.)
El hombre Malo –
And again, if the military knows the terrorists are hidden among civilians, they should change tactics to avoid the civilians to suffer more than whats strictly necesary.
I’m sorry, but exactly what tactics are you proposing that would not put civilians at risk?
The fact that the terorrists are among civilians to begin with is designed to show that they don’t give a rat’s ášš how many civilians die.
How does bombing Beirut civil infraestructures and neighbourghoods, in the hands of a pro-western goverment, help any military tactic?
The fact that you keep asking this over and over, after we’ve given you answers repeatedly, leads me to questoin whether you a strong grasp of military strategy and tactics?
Look at the situation in Iraq. The US has over 100,00 troops on the ground, and, sadly, many civilians are still being killed in the name of rooting out terrorism. They’re being killed by US soldiers, instead of US missles.
Israel sends missles to do it’s dirty work instead of soldiers.
Neither method has saved civilians, but you can’t sit there and just ignore the terrorists because they’ve intentionally placed themselves in civilian targets.
But for all these reasons I believe Israel should have higher standarts when it comes to the use of force over civilians.
I’d like to think the same thing of our own government, but you still end up with the Abu Ghraibs and who knows how many other incidents that should disgust all Americans.
However, theory and practice are two different rulebooks. And terrorists don’t play by any rulebook that the rest of the civilized world works with.
With Terrorists you use police and intelligence methods, not artillery.
****
Yeah, that police failed and helped lead to 9.11. All options are on the table, and all must be used-military, police, financial, intelligence, all of it.
and, quite frankly, the victims of terrorism can decide what mehtods they want to use, and what they think will be effective in keeping them safe. If terrorists don’t like it, change. If other nations don’t like it, then do their parts to end it. If people don’t like it, then do your part to end it, stop making excuses for murderers, and demand an end, and stop raising children, mostly young men, to be the kind of people to engage in terrorism.
stop treating some people as if they have all the excuses in the world for what they did and the vitims as if there are no excuses in the world. They should be held to the same responsibilty as everyone else, and should be expected to have the same respect for human life and dignity as anyone else, not made out to be heroes or supported.
The terrorists are to blame for all the deaths that have come out of this, not the victim.
OK…wow, so much…where to begin?
First let me apologize because if I quoted every thing I’d like to reply to this would go on forever and in the interest of brevity, I might not reply to some specific point. If you feel I’ve been unfair or slighted you in anyway feel free to post it or even email me and I’ll have no problem going into anything I might say.
Now, first to the person who mentioned that I’m wrong when I compare the KKK and Hamas because the KKK doesn’t recieve government support, I’ll say that at one time they did. In fact several members of the congress were, at one time, proud members of such organizations. Our laws in this country were at one time made to support their aims. This doesn’t mean we haven’t grown up a bit. I’d like to believe the same can be said where governments and Hamas and Hezzbollah are concerned.
I would also say that we should have learned by now that tit for tat doesn’t work. Thus the “JUST STOP”. Now, someone mentioned the whole “What if the other side doesn’t stop?” argument. I gotta say, that’s a pretty weak argument in my opinion. This idea that Ghandi’s tactics are outdated or wouldn’t do any good is a poor way to think of things, considering Israeli’s tactic hasn’t worked in over half a century of fighting yet Ghandi achieved his goals without bloodying his hands.
The amazing thing about the line of thinking that it wouldn’t work is that it’s coming from someone on a comic book writer’s blog. I mean, if superheroes should teach us anything, it’s that you do the right thing without worrying about whether it’s gonna be successful or whether it puts you into harm’s way but rather just because it’s the right thing. What happened to that? Think I’m nuts? Living in a fantasy world? Maybe, but again, Ghandi achieved his goal so it’s been proven successful.
Also have we not learned that if I hit you and then you hit me and I hit you back, it goes on forever but if one of us stops, we might end up with some loose teeth but we can move on?
Also why bomb a airport when your enemy isn’t going to fly into you but rather lob a missile over the border without needing a runway? Seriously.
OK, let’s keep going because I’m having a ball. LOL
Michael
I see something interesting developing here, and it disturbs me more than in interests me. The word “terrorist” is being thrown around in a way somewhat akin to the word “poopyhead” gets thrown around on the playground by a pair of feuding six-year-olds. Neither side feels like they’re engaging in terroristic activities, yet both are being accused of it by the other side. Now, from what I’ve seen, (and I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have all the information) Israel has tried to keep things from escalating too much, but the neighbors seem like the aforementioned six-year olds who don’t know enough to stop poking a bee’s nest with a short stick.
So, just who is it that declares someone a terrorist? And by what criteria is that claim measured? Can a person be a terrorist and still have the support of their government? In that case, wouldn’t that person be considered not a terrorist but a soldier? And if NOT, then wouldn’t the agrieved party or parties be able to go to that person’s government and ask THEM to do something about that person? Or am I just REALLY oversimplifying things? And if I am, as I readily admit I may be, why CAN’T things be this simple?
Looking at spiderrob’s comment up above mine, I have to point out two things. The attacks of September 11th happened, not because of police failures, or should I say SOLELY because of police failures? The police aren’t in charge of screening they who enter this country, they who wish to take flight training, or they who board an aircraft. If the police WERE in charge of that, I’m sure I wouldn’t want to live here. I don’t know too man people that would.
This idea that Ghandi’s tactics are outdated or wouldn’t do any good is a poor way to think of things, considering Israeli’s tactic hasn’t worked in over half a century of fighting yet Ghandi achieved his goals without bloodying his hands.
Ghandi was a great man. But while it’s safe to say he achieved some goals without bloodying his hands, the liberation of India from British rule resulted in the deaths of thousands during the partitian and Indo-Pakistani war. He also had, as mentioned, the benefit of using non-violence on those who were receptive to it. His suggestion to the British on the matter of Hitler is, to my admitedly non-saintly mind, insane: “I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions…. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them.”
The truth is, he was wrong. It WAS the weapons that saved humanity from the Axis powers. Maybe they would have collapsed eventually on their own but my God, at what price? Though we would certainly not be having any discussion on how Jews in the Middle East can best defend themselves, that’s for sure.
Also why bomb a airport when your enemy isn’t going to fly into you but rather lob a missile over the border without needing a runway? Seriously.
To keep them from getting more missiles? To keep them from getting away? I don’t know, I’m no military tactician (though I play a mean game of Galaga).
Gotta respond to Michael’s post. Ghandi-style tactics(Anybody else get an image of “UHF”?) will only work if the people on the other side will respect those tactics. If you are completely dedicated to non-violence, as respectable and honorable as that may be, there are some people out there that will see this person not as honorable, not as wise, not as inherently peaceful, but as a non-moving target. The trick is GETTING these same “Some people” to realize that you have the right to exsist as much as they do. Again, it SHOULD be simple, but some people just want to overcomplicate things.
He also had, as mentioned, the benefit of using non-violence on those who were receptive to it.
You also have to consider the fact that the British Empire was on it’s death bed, thus making it far easier for India and the rest of Britain’s former colonies to get their independence in the aftermaths of the two World Wars.
This isn’t to downplay Ghandi’s accomplishments, but he was a man who was certainly able to take advantage of the situation for his nation’s benefit.
Last post for tonight, I promise, guys! Listen, with that last one that I did, if it came off as particularly warmonger-ish, I didn’t mean it to. I may have a temper shorter than something so incredibly short that people would say “My GOD, that’s short!” but I’d like to think I’ve become slightly civilized in the last couple years. I just think that sometimes, under the right circumstances, a very SPECIFIC set of right circumstances, striking out can be the correct thing to do. I wouldn’t say justified or right, because that makes it too easy. You can argue any point to death to make it sound like the justified or right thing to do.
Micha, I hope you’re okay.
Oh and something else, because someone asked what exactly constitutes “proportionality”. Proportionality doesn’t work. Just because you can either seek revenge or defend yourself maybe that doesn’t mean you should. Because “proportionality” says that Superman kills Luthor, that Batman kills Joker and that Wonder Woman kills Max Lord. It says that I’m going to do exactly to you what you did to me but really my question then better be, how does this effect me in my life, in the long run?
Michael
“…the victims of terrorism can decide what mehtods they want to use, and what they think will be effective in keeping them safe”
Well, victim of terrorism, Israel, is using a method that in many people’s oppinion, not only doesnt make it safer but actually might worsen the situation. Gideon Levy of Haaretz elaborates on this.
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story-07180615641.htm
spiderrob says:
“stop treating some people as if they have all the excuses in the world for what they did and the vitims as if there are no excuses in the world. They should be held to the same responsibilty as everyone else, and should be expected to have the same respect for human life and dignity as anyone else, not made out to be heroes or supported.”
Actually, while demanding those who dont respect life to start doing so, I beg those whose society have already achieved that level (Israel) not to forget such values.
Craig J Ries:
“The fact that the terorrists are among civilians to begin with is designed to show that they don’t give a rat’s ášš how many civilians die.”
But the fact terrorist dont give a rat’s ášš about civilian losses shouldnt mean IDF should do the same. The “its all their fault because its them who put them at risk” line is only acceptable when there is an inmediate threat (ie: a lauching site that might deliver a rocket at a target in any given moment is an inmediate treath, civilian cassualties are acceptable to some extent. Political wing activists of a terrorist group on an apartment building doesnt represent an inmediate threat).
“The fact that you keep asking this over and over, after we’ve given you answers repeatedly, leads me to questoin whether you a strong grasp of military strategy and tactics?”
You have still not given me any awnser as to why bombing a christian neighbourhood with no ties to Hezbolah is a tactical step in a war against that terrorist group. Same with Lebanese army bases and controled infraestructures. Unless, as some have hinted here, the whole people of Lebanon deserve to suffer so they move and disarm Hezbolah.
“Look at the situation in Iraq. The US has over 100,00 troops on the ground, and, sadly, many civilians are still being killed in the name of rooting out terrorism. They’re being killed by US soldiers, instead of US missles.”
Well, I think no one ever said US “war on terror” is a well planed or succesful one. No one but US goverment and their apologists, that is. In fact US presence in Irak can be considered “exhibit A” in the case against military solutions for terrorism. What I defend is not a land strike (although usually these are most precise victim-wise) but a combination of intelligence and investigation with precise strikes. Hezbolah doesnt have armor nor bunkers, you dont need an army division to take out a leader, just a sniper or a commando operation. But these kind of things, even if cheaper than air strikes, are slow and require more planification. And are more risky for the people that carry them out. What a dilemma, to risk the life of a trained, full grown soldier or to take the easy way and just blow up the target and whoever happens to be near. Sort of an ethical dilemma.
“And terrorists don’t play by any rulebook that the rest of the civilized world works with”
Thats my point. We cant let them write the ethical rules we play with. If we are really better than them, and I believe we are, we should stick to our values and do the job, even if its harder. No one said having principles and living up to them should be easy.
Bill Mulligan said:
“Ok, settle down, nobody is accusing you of that”
Well, someone accused me of beign a terrorism apologist.
Bill Mulligan :Ghandi was a great man. But while it’s safe to say he achieved some goals without bloodying his hands, the liberation of India from British rule resulted in the deaths of thousands during the partitian and Indo-Pakistani war. He also had, as mentioned, the benefit of using non-violence on those who were receptive to it. His suggestion to the British on the matter of Hitler is, to my admitedly non-saintly mind, insane: “I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions…. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them.”
The truth is, he was wrong. It WAS the weapons that saved humanity from the Axis powers. Maybe they would have collapsed eventually on their own but my God, at what price? Though we would certainly not be having any discussion on how Jews in the Middle East can best defend themselves, that’s for sure.
And this my friend is why we continue to have this conflict. Because people believe that the guns can save us. There is a point to be made that while the weapons may have cut the Axis powers down, it didn’t save humanity at all. Rather now we’re stuck with a military industrial complex in the US that now threatens us all in very real ways.
Sean: Gotta respond to Michael’s post. Ghandi-style tactics(Anybody else get an image of “UHF”?) will only work if the people on the other side will respect those tactics. If you are completely dedicated to non-violence, as respectable and honorable as that may be, there are some people out there that will see this person not as honorable, not as wise, not as inherently peaceful, but as a non-moving target. The trick is GETTING these same “Some people” to realize that you have the right to exsist as much as they do. Again, it SHOULD be simple, but some people just want to overcomplicate things.
I would argue that the people who see that man as a non-moving target and those who believe that weapons and striking out are useful are just two sides of the same coin. Eventually these people will end up on the other side and continue the struggle from there.
All respect to both Sean and BIll but, it is sort of like a nice excuse to give up without trying.
Michael
Something disturbing is happening somewhere in the world? That’s why God created comics — as a means of escape.
Have read both X-Factor and FNSM — both of which came out this week. Got only one other title this week. (Neil Gaiman’s Eternals) Spent several moments deciding which order to read the three in. I ended up reading them: FNSM – Eternals – X-Factor. Ðámņ good reading all of it.
Truly was not expecting the ending of FNSM. Curious what will happen now. (In all timelines and universes involved)
The plot keeps thickening over on X-Factor.