So he said that Syria has to get the Hezballoh/Hizballoh/Jew-hating bášŧárdš to “knock this šhìŧ off.” So what? Syria SHOULD get them to knock this šhìŧ off. Leaders of terrorist countries and organizations use vile and hateful speech to denounce Israel and describe their intentions, and the media is making a cause celebre because the president of the United States said they should knock this šhìŧ off? I can just see the presidential apology: “I’m sorry for saying that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock this šhìŧ off. That could possibly have been misinterpreted since they treat the Israelis and human lives like šhìŧ, so they might have thought that I was encouraging them to kill Jews. What I should have said is that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock it the fûçk off.”
PAD
(Edited 12:16 PM to get the quote right)
• 
Okay, let’s start the clock: How long before a future post in which Peter criticizes Bush or the Republicans, and visitors knee-jerck accuse PAD of hating everything they do, never praising them, and never criticizing the Dems, and just plain forgetting that this blog entry took place? 🙂
****
Oh yeah, this was one praise heavy entry, just like the last one in which he basically seemed surprised that Bush was supporting Israel.
What an endorsement!!!
“Mmm. Is it equally hard to muster it when someone says that if we don’t like what our administration is doing, we should revolt, or reign them in, or just DO SOMETHING ANYTHING for pities sake? Just… do something”
Hey that’s what you are doing.
Because You guys HAVE been policing him. Take a look at how he’s dealing with Iran and N. Korea. If hadn’t been for all the peacniks who have taken it upon themselves to keep the heavy hand in check, we’d be carpet bombing them now.
Okay, let’s start the clock: How long before a future post in which Peter criticizes Bush or the Republicans, and visitors knee-jerck accuse PAD of hating everything they do, never praising them, and never criticizing the Dems, and just plain forgetting that this blog entry took place? 🙂
Oh yeah, this was one praise heavy entry, just like the last one in which he basically seemed surprised that Bush was supporting Israel.
What an endorsement!!!
Well, considering the self-evident rule that Bush always makes the wrong decision, who wouldn’t be surprised when W. finally makes the exception that proves the rule? 🙂
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 03:59 PM
“fair transactions” and “offers thy couldn’t refuse” supervised by the British, well if you call extortion fair, that aside most of the land was taken by force and forcibly kept.
Fair enough. We in the U.S. like to point to treaties signed by Native Americans selling land to us, but like to gloss over the coercive tactics we used to get them to sign such treaties — tactics such as violence.
So if that’s the way it happened in Palestine, it was wrong. Forgive me, however, for not necessarily accepting your version of events at face value without doing more research. As I’ll point out below, you’re not exactly the most fair-minded person in this debate.
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 03:59 PM
you can understand they’re shock if somebody suddenly declares a nation in most of your country.
Certainly I can. But let’s not oversimplify history, shall we?
The Palestinian state to which you’re referring was formed in 1920 as the British Mandate of Palestine. Prior to that, the area was under the control of the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottoman Empire was constantly threatening Europe and had more than once invaded the continent. In World War I, the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany and was therefore on the losing side. Part of the consequence was losing control of the area that became the British Mandate of Palestine.
Oh, did I forget to mention that the Ottoman Empire was primarily Muslim? Or are we pretending that only Christians and Jews have engaged in imperialism and colonialism, and that Muslims are all perfect?
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 03:59 PM
“While Israel may make a convenient scapegoat for all of the problems in the region, all such problems cannot be reasonably traced to Israel. The various Arab factions in the Middle East can’t get along with each other in many instances. Or are you going to try to pin the Iran-Iraq war on the Israelis?”
No the last one is on the USA , but between the 2 you cant go wrong.
and while many wars have come and gone in the region this conflict keeps freshening up.
You can indeed “go wrong” blaming all of your problems on Israel and the U.S. The U.S. was among the nations that shamefully and immorrally supported the regime of Saddam Hussein.
Nevertheless, I don’t recall any Arab nations attempting to intervene in the Iran/Iraq war.
And while I am sickened by my country’s invasion of Iraq, I can’t help but note an incredible irony. You blame us for our support of corrupt governments. So we take one out, and give the Iraqis an opportunity to create a representative government. In response, they go nuts committing factional violence and declare any government formed in the wake of our invasion to be a tool of the U.S. Would they rather have Saddam back? Because, you know, that could be arranged.
The Arab world needs to learn to take responsibility for itself. Take Iran, for example. They have a government that could by no means be described as a puppet of the U.S. What has that government done? It has repressed its people by imposing a barbaric, twisted interpretation of Islam that resembles Europe’s Medieval attitudes, particularly in their oppression of women. It has failed to provide its people with an opportunity to prosper, instead squandering its resources by supporting terrorist ventures and now seeking a nuclear arsenal.
But, of course, that’s our fault, isn’t it? Because everything the Arabs can’t do for themselves is the responsibility of the U.S. and the dirty Jews and their vampiric fangs, horns and forked tongues.
The Arab world is sitting on vast riches, and has a populace that has historically shown itself to be capable of great intellectual and spiritual advances. So, frankly, I’m not inclined to let your people off the hook — because you are as capable as any people on Earth of creating a positive destiny for yourselves.
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 03:59 PM
“an area from which Jews were unjustly expelled millennia before”
next you will say Palestinians where justly expelled.
You believe that because you’ve given yourself over to your hatred. I’ve said repeatedly that the Palestinians deserve a homeland, and that the Israelis treatment of them has not always been just. You are ignoring those statements because they conflict with your view of me as an enemy.
I think the swearing thing is nothing. Bush has never been known as a gentile speaker and it’s wildly known that he has a tendency to be cruder in private. So he got caught with a live mike. It’s not the first it’s happened to a presidet. It’s not even the first time it’s happened with him.
What strikes me is his statement “I think Condi will be going there soon.”
YOU THINK!??!?!??!
The middle east is teetering on another Arab-Israeli war and you think your secretary of state may get involved “soon”?? She she should already be wheels down in Tel Aviv and Damascus trying to at least get the parties talking.
As for Hezbollah controlling southern Lebanon, what you have to realize is that for the last several years, in addition to being a terrorist organization, Hezbollah has also been building schools, roads, and other aspects of Lebanon’s infrastructure. In other words, they’ve been doing what the Lebanese government would have been doing if they hadn’t been a puppet regime of Syria for the last 20 years. It’s the same strategy that enabled Hamas to take control of the Palestinian Authority’s legislature from Arafat’s corrupt Fatah party.
So, when the Lebanese people finally had a chance to elect a new government, it shouldn’t be shocking that Hezbollah-backed candidates managed to win a few cabinet seats. This power has given them a free hand to move about in the south and set up their rocket attacks. So, the Lebanese people became victims of a variation the old line used to defend Mousollini’s fascists in Italy: Sure, they’re terrorists, but they got the trains to run on time.
And now the people of Lebanon are paying the price for the faustian bargain they struck.
Posted by: Micha at July 18, 2006 04:00 PM
Bill, your post of Al-Quaida is very interesting. I didn’t know that. thanks.
You’re welcome.
I don’t know if you read Fallen Angel but i’m starting to think Israel is like Bete Noir, it is like a reflection of the rest of the world. Why else are people so obsessed about it?
For many reasons. Some of them are practical: our economy is tied to oil, and the Middle East controls vast oil resources. What happens there affects our economy.
Some of them are religious: Jerusalem holds a position of great importance in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
I have not yet read Fallen Angel but believe I should. I probably have no right to call myself a Peter David fan if I don’t. 🙂
You know, I just realized one of my statements implied that I think Peter David was better 10 years ago than he is today. That was never my intent. I think his writing is always getting better, which amazes me because it was always dámņ good.
My point was that I’d give my eyeteeth to be as good as he was 10 years ago. Lord only knows what I’d have to forfeit to be as good as he is now.
All I can do is keep writing, I guess, and let the chips fall where they may.
“Maktab al-Khadamat” means ” the service office” who would call an organization The Service Office? no self respecting terrorist would join that.
“Jewish state in an area from which Jews were unjustly expelled millennia before”
and
“By the way, there has been an uninterrupted Jewish presence in the Middle East for the last three thousand years”
this plot is a little convoluted and need a little editing
“The Jews formed a nation to protect themselves against Arab attacks”
so it wasn’t planed long before? do a wiki on “the Balfour Declaration”
I’m at work right now, and boy could I go for some white wine and cough syrup.
Although I’m sorry if you’re feeling ill. Be well soon.
People take cough syrup whwn they’re sick? Huh! Well, live and learn…
I have not yet read Fallen Angel but believe I should. I probably have no right to call myself a Peter David fan if I don’t. 🙂
Oh yeah, great stuff, maybe my favorite PAD work ever, even though it doesn’t have the stuff that USUALLY makes me like a Peter David story. Proof positive that he’s no one note pony.
Folks, we can argue forever on whether or not there ever should have been an Israel. I say yes, others say no. But that question has been answered. The Israelis have won their wars and created a society that easily bests those of its opponents. Handing it all over to the Palestinians is as likely as me giving my house to the Cherokee or Europeans handing over land to decendants of the Ostrogoths. Not. Going. To. Happen.
The refusal to understand this is one reason why the Palestinians are not getting “fair” treatment. The Israelis have acted like a culture worthy of support, the Palestinians, largely, have not. That they seem willing to wallow in poverty and sacrifice their children in pointless slaughter when they could accept less than total victory and begin to make something of their lives tends to extinguish sympathy.
Bill Myers,
Although PAD has said (on several occasion, I think) that the writing of issues of Fallen Angel that he had recently finished is the best that he’s done, I wouldn’t say that anyone has to read or like any particular piece of his work to be considered a fan. Some things just aren’t a particular reader’s cup of tea. For example, I’ve been burned out on Spider-Man for years and haven’t been picking up FNSM. I still consider myself a fan of his work.
Oh and I, at least, perfectly understood what you meant by the “ten years” remark when you first posted it.
Posted by: lorshas at July 18, 2006 05:36 PM
“Maktab al-Khadamat” means ” the service office” who would call an organization The Service Office? no self respecting terrorist would join that.
The Maktab al-Khadamāt was also known as the “Afghan Services Bureau” and was created to raise funds and recruit fighters for the war to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. Al Qaeda came afterwards.
Don’t ask me why it was named as it was. I didn’t name it.
so it wasn’t planed long before? do a wiki on “the Balfour Declaration”
I’m so far ahead of you it isn’t even funny. I know about “The Balfour Declaration,” and about the Arab paranoia that there is a Zionist conspiracy to wipe you all out.
I’m no longer interested in debating the morality of giving the Jews a homeland in order to protect them from things like genocide at the hands of the Nazis in the 20th century. It’s clear that you’re not willing to have an honest debate about that.
As my friend Bill Mulligan has pointed out, however, Israel exists and the best efforts of Arab nations to change that fact have failed and will likely continue to do so. If that fact so galls you that you’d rather see continued death and destruction than reach a compromise, well, so be it.
There is an alternative. The Israelis offered the Palestinians 90 percent of the West Bank and Gaza. They could have accepted it. The Israelis have been unilaterally withdrawing from occupied territories. Hamas and Hezbollah could have laid down arms and initiated talks with Israel regarding further concessions.
That you’d rather make excuses for the Palestinians and support continued violence in lieu of a peaceful resolution deeply saddens me.
And before you go off on another rant, I know my nation has many flaws. I have personally struggled to change things wherever I could, rather than make excuses for my country. We are not the paragon of virtue we sometimes like to believe we are. But neither are we the Great Satan you’ve painted us to be.
“There is an alternative. The Israelis offered the Palestinians 90 percent of the West Bank and Gaza. They could have accepted it. The Israelis have been unilaterally withdrawing from occupied territories. Hamas and Hezbollah could have laid down arms and initiated talks with Israel regarding further concessions.”
As I also commented on the previous post, Israel also unilaterally excluded Jerusalem or the return of the refugees from any agreement. They simply wont discuss it. While Palestinians want Jerusalem to be their capital (they dont even demand all of it like UN gave them but just the eastern part of it) Israel refuse to concede an inch of it.
Jerusalem is not so much a sacred city for muslims but an historic rallying point. Shia and Sunni collide on most issues, but all praise Soliman, who defeated invaders and united Arabs (even orthodox christian arabs who were fed up with catholic invaders). Soliman is like Jean D’Arc, King Arthur and Alexander the Great piled into one for muslims, and Jerusalem is the symbol of that. (this I actually copy-pasted from the other thread).
I say this not to justify palestinian leadership inhability to negotiate, but to point out that there are reasons, good reasons in their point of view, not to accept what Israel offers.
It’s late here and I am sure when I log on tomorrow the thread will be at a completely different point. I am eager to see where this end *grin*
Personally I find it refreshing that Bush would talk like that. Too often politicians, presidents in particular, come off more scripted than the average movie. I think the world would be slightly better if people said what they meant, meant what they said, and were CLEAR ON ALL COUNTS. If you think someone should knock šhìŧ off, say it.
As I also commented on the previous post, Israel also unilaterally excluded Jerusalem or the return of the refugees from any agreement. They simply wont discuss it. While Palestinians want Jerusalem to be their capital (they dont even demand all of it like UN gave them but just the eastern part of it) Israel refuse to concede an inch of it.
Actually, I seem to recall some aspect of Jerusalem being fungible in this regard and a rather clever way of determining who exactly had sovereignity of the Holy City (instead of being an Israeli city or a Palistinian city, it would legally be God’s city or somesuch).
Shia and Sunni collide on most issues, but all praise Soliman, who defeated invaders and united Arabs (even orthodox christian arabs who were fed up with catholic invaders).
You mean Saladin, right? When I see Soliman, I assume Solomon, the architect of the Temple.
“You mean Saladin, right? When I see Soliman, I assume Solomon, the architect of the Temple.”
Yes, of course. A friend of mine uses Solimán as his nickname in internet and I just switched Saladin with Soliman (the Second, greatest ruler of the Ottoman Empire)
“…I seem to recall some aspect of Jerusalem being fungible in this regard and a rather clever way of determining who exactly had sovereignity of the Holy City”
I might be wrong, but I remember an interview with the mayor of Jerusalem sternly stating that the city was, is and would be ethernally jewish, when asked about any partition of concession. Also remember how the Palestinnian Authority offices in Jerusalem have been repeatedly closed.
The correct quote is:
“See, the irony is that what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this šhìŧ, and it’s over.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-bushtalk18jul18,1,7695647.story
As I pointed out elsewhere, the true outrage is not his use of the word “šhìŧ”, it’s the complete misuse of the word “irony”.
“…I seem to recall some aspect of Jerusalem being fungible in this regard and a rather clever way of determining who exactly had sovereignity of the Holy City”
I might be wrong, but I remember an interview with the mayor of Jerusalem sternly stating that the city was, is and would be ethernally jewish, when asked about any partition of concession.
The mayor of Jerusalem might say that but his opinion wouldn’t mean much if the Israeli national government decided otherwise.
“The mayor of Jerusalem might say that but his opinion wouldn’t mean much if the Israeli national government decided otherwise”
I think back then this guy was a leader on one of the governing coalition parties. Micha would know for sure.
“See, the irony is that what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this šhìŧ, and it’s over.”
As I pointed out elsewhere, the true outrage is not his use of the word “šhìŧ”, it’s the complete misuse of the word “irony”.
[sighs]
[rubs bridge of nose as if in pain]
(mumbling) only 916 days left, only 916 days left, only 916 days left, only 916 days left, only 916 days left . . . .
Well.
Reflecting upon my own posts in response to lorsha, it’s becoming clear to me how easy it is for human beings to get swept up in their passions, and to act in the very ways they claim to despise. Because I have done just that.
I detest the way people like lorsha lob invective at the U.S. and Israel yet I returned his invective with my own. I indicated a lack of patience with arguments that are emotions based and lack facts to back them up, and yet I pilloried Saudi Arabians for eating up anti-U.S. propaganda served up by a government trying to cover up its own misdeeds, without citing any facts to back it up.
(In fact, I believe I read it in a newspaper article some years back. But that’s just not good enough. Not when I’ve written something that I can’t rescind. And even if I could, I can’t “unring the bell” in the minds of those who have already read it. I will now set about to researching whether it’s true, but, y’know, I should have looked up the facts FIRST and drawn my conclusions AFTERWARDS.)
It’s easy to do as lorsha has done, and point the finger at everyone else. But really, you want world peace? The first thing you have to do is look inward. Look at your own flaws and conquer them. Decide what you can do, on whatever scale you can do it, to make things better.
Yes, I know. It’s cornball. It’s cliched. It sounds silly, sappy, and foolish.
Yet I believe it is nevertheless true.
>a recent study showed that they are no more inaccurate than more “traditional” encyclopedias
Ach, keep up with the briefings, lad. Brittanica debunked that one months ago.
http://corporate.britannica.com/britannica_nature_response.pdf
I see your point, Bill, but I think the reality of Saudi propaganda is one that virtually anyone would acknowledge.
Here’s some info on our Saudi friends:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdocs/KSAtextbooks06.pdf
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-01-28.htm
Pretty chilling stuff.
No matter how bad the Israelis act it would be very very difficult for them to lower themselves to the level of those who would destroy them. This hasn’t stopped them from getting a disproportionate amount of condemnation from those who somehow manage to tolerate Arab atrocities with nary a whisper.
For that matter, if the marchers who weep for Mumia Abu-Jamal or whoever the murderer du jour is ever held signs and vigils for the Palestinians executed by the PLO for supposed collaboration with Israel, well, I haven’t seen it.
Dubya needs to get some cursing lessons from the LBJ Library–now THERE’S a president who could swear!
Brittanica debunked that one months ago.
Sounds like one particular company got a little pissy that they were being compared with Wikipedia in the first place. 🙂
people who are appalled that Hezbollah has any public support should keep in mind that Hezbollah runs a network of schools and hospitals. and i believe their political platform has remarkably progressive economic elements.
so, while some people probably vote for them because they kill Jews, there are probably also those who vote for them because they’re out there helping people.
-will meyer
spiderrob: Oh yeah, this was one praise heavy entry…
Luigi Novi: No, it was an entry in which Peter agreed with Bush, and defended him from the media, who seem to be acting as if his comments were unreasonable.
Nice Straw Man, though. Goes great with the Astroturf Logic. 🙂
Know what I find really freakin’ funny? That anyone who would claim to want peace would bomb or send rockets anywhere. And that is BOTH sides.
Also, I find it odd that the major press in this country act as a press agent for the Israeli gov’t. I mean, maybe these soldiers wouldn’t have been captured had Israel not been doing flyovers Gaza and trying to provoke further violence this past year (since the supposed “pullout”. You gotta love Bush saying it was “too soon” for a cease-fire. Apparently not enough people have died for his taste.
BTW, I originally came here to see if PAD had seen the interview with DiDio over at Newsarama. It’s very telling on DiDio’s view of YJ. And in the talkback part I finally feel like people are getting what I’ve been saying for 3 years about the man (DiDio, not PAD).
Michael
Bill Meyers:
In 1947, in response to mounting violence, the U.N. General Assembly proposed dividing Palestine roughly in half, into one Jewish state and one Arab state. The Palestinians rejected the offer, and Israel declared itself a nation in 1948.
By the way, there has been an uninterrupted Jewish presence in the Middle East for the last three thousand years. The Jews formed a nation to protect themselves against Arab attacks.
Arab attacks like the King David Hotel in 46? or like Sharafat in 1951? or Deir Yassin in 48?
there’s a long history of violence and Terrorist attacks from Zionists before the founding of Israel.
i’m not saying that to demonize Jews, just to point out that the shoe has been on the other foot.
it should also be pointed out that Iran has the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East. i’ve been led to believe that there’s a long history of Jewish peoples living quite peacably with the Arabs.
it’s too simple to just say that the Arabs have always hated the Jews and that’s the way things are.
the genocidal strain of radical Islam is a fairly recent development.
Bill Mulligan:
Folks, we can argue forever on whether or not there ever should have been an Israel. I say yes, others say no. But that question has been answered. The Israelis have won their wars and created a society that easily bests those of its opponents. Handing it all over to the Palestinians is as likely as me giving my house to the Cherokee or Europeans handing over land to decendants of the Ostrogoths. Not. Going. To. Happen.
by the same token i wouldn’t expect Palestinians to hand over half their land to form a Jewish Nation because of some ancient historical ties.
in my view, Israel has a right to exist simply because they exist, not because of ancient history.
i think a good solution for the current situation would be a multinationl UN peacekeeping force being assigned to police the border between Israel and Lebanon.
Also, I find it odd that the major press in this country act as a press agent for the Israeli gov’t.
Right, you have to look real hard to find any critisism of Israel. Good grief, how insulated ARE you?
The Israelis do anything and it’s front page news. The iranians hang two young boys for being gay and, if it gets mentioned at all, is just shrugged off as what happens in that part of the world.
I’m not saying that the Israelis should be held to the standards of the Arab nations and it’s obviously hopeless to hold Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc to the standards of Israel and/or the 21st century in general, but the claims by some that “Israeli interests” (ie “them durn Jews”) control the media is bogus.
by the same token i wouldn’t expect Palestinians to hand over half their land to form a Jewish Nation because of some ancient historical ties.
One big difference–the Palestinians DID hand it over, by losing their war against Israel. And they are no closer to winning it back militarily than they were in 1948. Further away, in fact. They exist at the Israeli’s whim. They are lucky they aren’t pulling this sort of thing on the border of China or Russia or Turkey. They’d be a memory.
The question of whether or not Israel should exist is over and done with, as much as the question of “should the USA take the west from the Indians?” Asked and answered. The Palestinians can blow up as many of their children as they want, it won’t set the wayback machine to 1920. They lost the war. Time to do the best with what you have.
If I’m harsh on my Arab brothers it’s because I well know from personal experience that they are NOT the savages portrayed by many, doomed by some genetic weakness to be forever in the shadows of modern times. Many are the product of ignorance and political propaganda, not just from their own corrupt leaders but from those who, for whatever reason, encourage the suicidal notion that Israel can be forced to their will. Not going to happen. The Israelis want it more. They have always won. There is no reason to think they won’t keep on winning. Even if the madman in Iran managed to drop the Bomb on Tel Aviv…There would still be an Israel.
Iran, however, would be a steaming pile of sand. It’s important that this be understood.
Iran, however, would be a steaming pile of sand.
[shrug] I would have said “blasted into glass”, but that’s just me.
“Ah, it seems you have been drinking the Kool Aid of Arab propaganda.”
As opposed to your eating up the Zionist propaganda like ice cream? You’re obviously an apologist for Israel. No matter how many hundreds of innocent civilians are killed in Israeli air raids, it was worth it to protect the fatherland. They’ve become the mirror image of the evil that created them.
Actually Sasha, from what I’ve been hearing, the US military will evacuate US passport holders from Lebannon to Cyprus. From there it’s up to the individuals to find transport home (or where ever else they want to go).
Nope. According to this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/lebanon.evacuation/index.html), evacuees would have had to pay to be evacuated out of Lebanon. Apparently realizing that his approval rating could actually go lower, the Bush adminstration has waived the “fee to flee.”
They’ve become the mirror image of the evil that created them.
Bill, as a Christian and with nothing but the love of Jesus Christ in my heart, I implore you to please get back on your medication cycle.
No rational person can possibly believe that Israel is remotely equivalent (let alone a “mirror image”) to the regime you allude to by any objective standard.
You have potty mouth.
-CCR
“No rational person can possibly believe that Israel is remotely equivalent (let alone a “mirror image”) to the regime you allude to by any objective standard.”
The families of all the dead innocent civilians in Lebanon right now could believe it. Although the apologists will say they were ‘guilty’ by association. Even the dead Canadians.
Posted by Bill Maxwell at July 19, 2006 01:07 AM
As opposed to your eating up the Zionist propaganda like ice cream? You’re obviously an apologist for Israel. No matter how many hundreds of innocent civilians are killed in Israeli air raids, it was worth it to protect the fatherland. They’ve become the mirror image of the evil that created them.
Bill, I made the remark about you “drinking the Kool Aid of Arab propaganda” because you attempted to link our support of Israel with the attacks on September 11, 2001. I responded by pointing out that Al Qaeda was formed as a response to our military presence in Saudi Arabia, which was a response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Our involvement was motivated by a desire to protect the flow of Saudi oil to our country. That’s not a noble motive, but it sure as hëll had nothing to do with Israel.
Hurl as much invective at me as you’d like. Unless, however, you can provide me with some facts that show that Al Qaeda was formed as a direct response to our support of Israel, you’re going to lose that argument.
As for being an “apologist” for Israel: not hardly. Not even close. I’ve criticized them before and will likely do so again. But they have a right and responsibility to defend their borders against naked aggression.
BTW, let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them. So if the little brother of the biggest kid in the neighborhood decides to act like an ášš and then he wins a fight with his big brother behind him, would we really call him a winner?
Oh and this from Bill:
Right, you have to look real hard to find any critisism of Israel. Good grief, how insulated ARE you?
Actually I watch and read almost constantly and I’ve yet to see any balance in this story. When the MSM talks of this conflict Israel is always “defending itself”. When the Palestinians do something it is always “terrorsim”. What the heck do you call the flyovers into Gaza if not terror? Or the flyovers into Lebanon that aren’t reported by the US MSM? Israel acts like a bully more often than not.
As for Israel mirroring the evil it claims to fight, I’d say anytime you initiate violence against a violent opponent, that is exactly what you are doing.
Michael
The refusal to understand this is one reason why “the Palestinians are not getting “fair” treatment. The Israelis have acted like a culture worthy of support, the Palestinians, largely, have not. That they seem willing to wallow in poverty and sacrifice their children in pointless slaughter when they could accept less than total victory and begin to make something of their lives tends to extinguish sympathy”
so all the Palestinians need to do is look nice and talk nice then they can destroy as they pleas without opposition?
and how can people build lives if the Israelis keep destroying them , they’re indiscrimination is not giving them a chance.
“Folks, we can argue forever on whether or not there ever should have been an Israel. I say yes, others say no. But that question has been answered. The Israelis have won their wars and created a society that easily bests those of its opponents. Handing it all over to the Palestinians is as likely as me giving my house to the Cherokee or Europeans handing over land to decendants of the Ostrogoths. Not. Going. To. Happen”
that is not ancient history and it didn’t stop , destroying homes and families is still ongoing to this moment even for the Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship.
“I’m so far ahead of you it isn’t even funny. I know about “The Balfour Declaration” and about the Arab paranoia that there is a Zionist conspiracy to wipe you all out.
I’m no longer interested in debating the morality of giving the Jews a homeland in order to protect them from things like genocide at the hands of the Nazis in the 20th century. It’s clear that you’re not willing to have an honest debate about that”
you said before that Israel was declared a state as a reaction but the “The Balfour Declaration” proves the British Wehr extorting land to give to the Jews.
but why didn’t they give them a part of Australia or any of the other colonies?
“As my friend Bill Mulligan has pointed out, however, Israel exists and the best efforts of Arab nations to change that fact have failed and will likely continue to do so. If that fact so galls you that you’d rather see continued death and destruction than reach a compromise, well, so be it…
And before you go off on another rant, I know my nation has many flaws. I have personally struggled to change things wherever I could, rather than make excuses for my country. We are not the paragon of virtue we sometimes like to believe we are. But neither are we the Great Satan you’ve painted us to be”
“best efforts of Arab nations” Egypt and Jordan are friends now and thy almost got a new one in Lebanon and the refusal to return the Golan heights is stopping Peace with Syria, and no Arab stat has don any effort against Israel for the last 30 years. but you keep repeating the old chant.
“But neither are we the Great Satan you’ve painted us to be”
as individuals their are more good people in the US than in the Arab world but as a state…
“yet I pilloried Saudi Arabians for eating up anti-U.S. propaganda served up by a government trying to cover up its own misdeeds”
HA man this makes me laugh and cry , the propaganda is pro US since forever.
“If I’m harsh on my Arab brothers it’s because I well know from personal experience that they are NOT the savages portrayed by many, doomed by some genetic weakness to be forever in the shadows of modern times. Many are the product of ignorance and political propaganda”
cities get bombed homes get destroyed Israeli officials get on TV and say “all the Lebanese deserve to die” sorry for getting the wrong impression.
“Iran, however, would be a steaming pile of sand”
hey look genocide jokes.
“by the same token i wouldn’t expect Palestinians to hand over half their land to form a Jewish Nation because of some ancient historical ties”
thats what Palestinians Wehr trying to do , but instead of finishing things with Abass thy wait for Hamas to come along to say no.and nobody is demanding for all the refugees to return anymore as horrible as that sounds just a “fair resolution” so another excuse for Israel is gone.
“No rational person can possibly believe that Israel is remotely equivalent (let alone a “mirror image”) to the regime you allude to by any objective standard.”
The families of all the dead innocent civilians in Lebanon right now could believe it. Although the apologists will say they were ‘guilty’ by association. Even the dead Canadians.
I said that by using objective standards, there is no reasonable way you can equate Israel with the Third Reich. You haven’t given me any. Rather, you resort to emotionally leading commentary and make assumptions with no basis. That dog won’t hunt, my friend.
For the record, my thoughts on the current brouhaha are as follows: I believe Israel is justified in responding to having its troops attacked and abducted by Hezbollah. However, I honestly question if Israel’s current actions are a proper response and I fear they are making a terrible mistake.
As opposed to your eating up the Zionist propaganda like ice cream? You’re obviously an apologist for Israel. No matter how many hundreds of innocent civilians are killed in Israeli air raids, it was worth it to protect the fatherland. They’ve become the mirror image of the evil that created them.
You either have no idea what Nazi Germany was like or no idea what Israel is like. Or both. I have nothing against exageration for comedic effect but please…
BTW, let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them. So if the little brother of the biggest kid in the neighborhood decides to act like an ášš and then he wins a fight with his big brother behind him, would we really call him a winner?
The Arab nations had some big guns behind them as well. It wasn’t American pilots who shot up the Egyption tanks like video game pixels in the 6 day war.
I would also point out that everytime the Arabs lose a war with Israel the world steps in and stops the Israelis from gaining too much ground. How much could they have taken from the Arabs at the end of the 6 day war? (Admitedly, it would have been hard to keep.
“I think criticizing some off the cuff comments made in casual cobversation while they were eating is a bit much. I don’t think the moment is meant to call for “an incredibly sophisticated analysis.””
Yeah, it would be unfair if we were talking about someone else, but this is the President. It’s representative of the way he thinks and an insight into how pathetic a leader he is:
1) He’s the President of the U.S. – he’s in a position to do something, but he sees it as something “they” should be working on.
2) And hey – the solution is easy – someone else talks to Syria, who talks to Hezbollah, who then stops doing that annoying šhìŧ they’re doing – and it’s OVER. Just like that.
3) This isn’t about people’s lives, their homes, vioence, long term regional stability or anything like that — it’s about annoying šhìŧ. Gee, someone might want him to pay attention.
4) He talks with his mouth full.
5) He swears at the dinner table.
6) He misuses the word “irony”.
The guy’s a lousy leader and a terrible role model for the children. Someone get that man a fiddle.
“BTW, let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them. So if the little brother of the biggest kid in the neighborhood decides to act like an ášš and then he wins a fight with his big brother behind him, would we really call him a winner?”
Exactly. Then the apologists wonder why the Arabs hate the “big brother”!
It’s a specious argument to begin with. Just because Israel was able to successfully steal Palestine from it’s citizens by force, that doesn’t make the act legally or morally justified. And the victims of Israel’s crimes aren’t going to simply forget about it and wander off, they’re going to fight the injustice. EVERY conquerer has considered legitimate resistance to be ‘terrorism’.
Actually I watch and read almost constantly and I’ve yet to see any balance in this story. When the MSM talks of this conflict Israel is always “defending itself”. When the Palestinians do something it is always “terrorsim”.
“Always”…So many obvious exceptions to choose from…here’s Helen Thomas, writer for Hearst News and full-time dotty old battleaxe, at a presidential briefing: “Ari, does the President think that the Palestinians have a right to resist 35 years of brutal military occupation and suppression?”
There was the Minneapolis Star Tribune which had the policy of never using the word “terrorist”–so it was members of a “militant group” that blew up a bus of Israelis–but managed to break their own rule when the culprits were Jews–“It was midday July 22, 1946. Ovikian was eating in the basement of the King David Hotel when Zionist terrorists struck… The Brits had fortified the hotel’s eight-story southern wing with barbed wire and tanks. But the terrorists sneaked in the northern end dressed as delivery people, their milk cans filled with TNT.”
The same paper also had to apologize for re-writing news accounts of a Human Rights Watch report on casualties in the Jenin refugee camp to hide the fact that the group found no evidence of a “massacre”.
And there are plenty more if one is willing to find them. But the idea that Jews control the USA media is one that some people are loath to give up.
As for Israel mirroring the evil it claims to fight, I’d say anytime you initiate violence against a violent opponent, that is exactly what you are doing.
Me-
“Iran, however, would be a steaming pile of sand”
lorshas-
hey look genocide jokes.
Um…that wasn’t a joke. Israel has the Bomb. Many of them. If Iran actually tries to do what their nut president claims he wants to do and tries to eliminate Israel they will be destroyed. I have more reason than most to want to see this avoided, so I hope the idea that this is a “joke” is a minority one in the Middle East.
“yet I pilloried Saudi Arabians for eating up anti-U.S. propaganda served up by a government trying to cover up its own misdeeds”
HA man this makes me laugh and cry , the propaganda is pro US since forever.
Stop laughing and crying long enough to read. Google Saudi Propaganda and be amazed.
(Weirdly, the next to last listing on the first page is for the William E. Mulligan papers…not the same William E. Mulligan as your gentle poster, I assure you, since he is both famous and dead while I, conversely, am not.)
BTW, let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them. So if the little brother of the biggest kid in the neighborhood decides to act like an ášš and then he wins a fight with his big brother behind him, would we really call him a winner?
Really? Did American soldiers actually fight side-by-side with the IDF during its wars? Getting materiel is a far cry from having “his big brother behind him”. And when you consider that the so-called little brother is constantly threatened to be beaten up (if not out-and-out killed) by not one entity but a gang of folk, you have a more accurate description of the situation.
Actually I watch and read almost constantly and I’ve yet to see any balance in this story. When the MSM talks of this conflict Israel is always “defending itself”. When the Palestinians do something it is always “terrorsim”. What the heck do you call the flyovers into Gaza if not terror? Or the flyovers into Lebanon that aren’t reported by the US MSM? Israel acts like a bully more often than not.
Do these flyovers usually result in bombs dropped or is it just surveilance? When a Palestian organization specificallly attacks a civilian target with the specific intent of killing as many non-combatants as possible and creating as much havoc as possible, what is it except terrorism? Yeah, Israel acts like a bully sometimes, but far more frequently than you give it credit for, it acts pretty honorably.
As for Israel mirroring the evil it claims to fight, I’d say anytime you initiate violence against a violent opponent, that is exactly what you are doing.
By this statement, are you saying that you believe that the militants that Israel fights are both violent and evil?
“BTW, let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them. So if the little brother of the biggest kid in the neighborhood decides to act like an ášš and then he wins a fight with his big brother behind him, would we really call him a winner?”
Exactly. Then the apologists wonder why the Arabs hate the “big brother”!
There are plenty of reasons why Arabs may hate the US, but the fact that we’re allies with Israel isn’t the sole reason. Hëll, I doubt it’s the main reason.
It’s a specious argument to begin with. Just because Israel was able to successfully steal Palestine from it’s citizens by force, that doesn’t make the act legally or morally justified. And the victims of Israel’s crimes aren’t going to simply forget about it and wander off, they’re going to fight the injustice. EVERY conquerer has considered legitimate resistance to be ‘terrorism’.
Strictly speaking, Israel didn’t exist when Palastine was carved up. That was the world community’s decision so blame them. And we have a difference in opinion of what exactly is “legitimate resistance” — just because something is branded “terrorism” doesn’t mean it isn’t terrorism.
Out of curiousity, Mr. Maxwell, what would you consider a satisfactory solution to the Israeli/Palastinian problem? No bromides or slogans please, just your honest and realistic opinion.
“There are plenty of reasons why Arabs may hate the US, but the fact that we’re allies with Israel isn’t the sole reason. Hëll, I doubt it’s the main reason”
first Arabs hate your your government , and yes the US is
also baking every dictatorship in the region other than Syria , look for another round of violence when Mubarak Jr. becomes the Egyptian president , Egypt had the best shot for a real moderate democracy with kifaya but its gone.
“Out of curiousity, Mr. Maxwell, what would you consider a satisfactory solution to the Israeli/Palastinian problem? No bromides or slogans please, just your honest and realistic opinion”
I’m not Mr.Maxwell ,but ill tel you that their is no solution that well let the sides live haply ever after , but their are solutions to let them live on we can’t stop this generation from violence but the future generations can live on with this period as a bad distant memory , this conflict keeps refreshing itself, should their ever be a resolution then people must hold on to it and wait for the generation to grow old and die out.
the US is
also baking every dictatorship in the region other than Syria
Really? Iran? Libya? And besides, I thought the problem was that we DIDN’T back the Arabs. If we limit it only to backing non-dictatorships in the Middle East…well, there’s Israel and, um…
Your comments about letting this generation grow old and die out are unexpectedly poignant. I hope that isn’t the case, though you may well be correct. The problem is that each generation poisons the next. What chance do we have that the next generation of Palestinians will produce a real leader when they are taught that blowing themselves and as many Jews as possible into chunks is the noblest aspiration?
Really? Iran? Libya? And besides, I thought the problem was that we DIDN’T back the Arabs. If we limit it only to backing non-dictatorships in the Middle East…well, there’s Israel and, um…
Lebanon. also, haven’t the Palestinians had elections?
there’s also Turkey if you want to qualify that as the Middle East.
Lebanon. also, haven’t the Palestinians had elections?
True but I took the claim that we supported only dictatorships to mean that we only support the bad guys. My point is that there aren’t a whole lot of good guys in the region. Hamas was democratically elected but that doesn’t mean they are anything other than murderous bášŧárdš–jûšŧ popular murderous bášŧárdš.
Similarly, Lebanon’s government is of little use to us if they are so weak that they can’t keep their borders from being little more than nice places to aim missles at Jews.