So he said that Syria has to get the Hezballoh/Hizballoh/Jew-hating bášŧárdš to “knock this šhìŧ off.” So what? Syria SHOULD get them to knock this šhìŧ off. Leaders of terrorist countries and organizations use vile and hateful speech to denounce Israel and describe their intentions, and the media is making a cause celebre because the president of the United States said they should knock this šhìŧ off? I can just see the presidential apology: “I’m sorry for saying that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock this šhìŧ off. That could possibly have been misinterpreted since they treat the Israelis and human lives like šhìŧ, so they might have thought that I was encouraging them to kill Jews. What I should have said is that Syria should get Hezballoh to knock it the fûçk off.”
PAD
(Edited 12:16 PM to get the quote right)
• 
“Really? Iran? Libya? And besides, I thought the problem was that we DIDN’T back the Arabs. If we limit it only to backing non-dictatorships in the Middle East…well, there’s Israel and, um…”
– Libya : not in the region
– Iran : after what happened in Florida twice you have no right to complain about their democracy.
– Israel: half the population is exiled and isn’t aloud to vote.
Iran : after what happened in Florida twice you have no right to complain about their democracy.
For starters, your exact statement was that the US was “baking every dictatorship in the region other than Syria”. I would not consider Iran to be any kind of democracy, since the choices are limited and the power of those voted on is also limited by the ruling mullahs. If you think that the problems in Florida in 2000 (not 2004, don’t know where you got that) are on par with Iran, well, we begin to see how you are so easily able to believe in an equivilance between the Palestinians and Israelis.
Libya : not in the region
Please. It’s right next to Egypt. It’s a member of the Arab league. It’s a player in the region, albeit a minor one since Operation El Dorado Canyon.
Israel: half the population is exiled and isn’t aloud to vote.
I assume you mean the Palestinians. They don’t consider themselves citizens of Israel so how could they vote???
– Iran : after what happened in Florida twice you have no right to complain about their democracy.
You said you were Saudi iirc.
After what’s happening in your own country, YOU have no right to speak about our democratic elections either.
It’s not the swearing that unnerves me… it’s the unsolicited neckrubs he gives to other world leaders.
http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=24262
I kind of miss the innocence of his father’s presidency, when the strangest international exchange involved throwing up on the Japanese Prime Minister.
Whoa, lorshas lives in Saudi Arabia? And he’s giving us crap about how we handle our democracy???
He must also be the creator of Hi and Lois, because he is making me laugh.
Actually Lorshas complained too about the lack of democracy in the arab world and how US policies backed represive regimes and dictatorships. That he is Saudi doesnt mean that he agrees with his goverment, boyd and girls. From his comments he seems far from beign wahabist.
I’ve had time to think about this, and read everyone else’s posts again, and done some more research about the Middle East. I’ve come to the following conclusions:
If the Palestinians want to play the “your land was my land” game, then they have to acknowledge that at one time, albeit thousands of years ago, their land belonged to the Jews. I don’t care how long ago it was, because no one has yet answered my question as to the exact number of years after which the statute of limitations kicks in. That’s probably because no one can. Either every historical grievance about the land is legitimate, or they’re all irrelevant.
The Jews have been among the most victimized people in history. The Holocaust showed just how vulnerable they were as a people. It’s easy to understand why the Zionist movement came about, and why so many Jews thought the creation of a homeland was so important.
On the other hand, the Palestinians need and deserve a homeland. The Palestinians who lost their homes as a result of Israel’s formation in 1948 weren’t the people who forced the Jews out of that area thousands of years ago. Their suffering is real.
But Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but the Palestinians rejected the offer and walked away from the negotiating table. I understand that Israel was unwilling to put Jerusalem on the table, and that angered the Palestinians. But guess what? Having their own territory and building a viable nation would go a long way toward giving them the clout they’d need to negotiate for shared control of Jerusalem.
Israel also unilaterally began withdrawing from occupied territories, and as a result was invaded by Hezbollah and Hamas. They may have been “small” invasions but they were invasions nevertheless. These were acts of war. Israel responded in kind, which was appropriate.
The bottom line is that there are Arab factions that do not wish to negotiate. They cling to the vain hope that they can push Israel into the sea. Until they let go of that fantasy, they will make no real progress and the bloodshed will continue.
Those of you who continue to offer platitudes about how Israel is creating more enemies may as well accuse me of creating more rain by defending myself with an umbrella. Israel’s very existence is what drives many of its enemies. The very actions of Hezbollah and Hamas prove my point.
Oh, and lorshas, before you go on another ridiculous, paranoid rant about how the U.S. is behind every dictatorship in your region, pay attention to your region’s own history. The Iranians overthrew their U.S.-backed government in the 1970s, and instead installed an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship. Iran is now completely free of ties to the U.S., and has as a result become a heavenly paradise where everyone is prosperous and happy and secure, right?
Right????
Actually Lorshas complained too about the lack of democracy in the arab world and how US policies backed represive regimes and dictatorships.
The Saudi government is just as guilty of backing other repressive regimes in the Middle East, yet he makes it sound as thought we here in the US are the ones with our heads furthest buried in the sand.
Not to mention his other comments, which give little if any thought to the fact that maybe, just maybe, the Jews have been wronged far too often too.
All the while, Hezbollah and Hamas continue to muder innocents, Jew and Muslim alike, at the behest of fanaticals and horrible regimes such as Iran.
Just today, one of Hezbollah’s missiles killed two Israeli Arab boys. Yet, apparently people in the area are blaming the Israeli government.
Why? Hezbollah and Hamas are going to launch those dámņ attacks regardless of whether the Israeli government stands up to them or not.
I think quite a few people in that part of the world need some new perspective. 😛
AS ISRAEL wages war against Hezbollah “terrorists” in Lebanon, Britain has protested about the celebration by right-wing Israelis of a Jewish “act of terrorism” against British rule 60 years ago this week.
The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine. They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.
Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”
In particular they demanded the removal of the plaque that pays tribute to the Irgun, the Jewish resistance branch headed by Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister, which carried out the attack on July 22, 1946.
The plaque presents as fact the Irgun’s claim that people died because the British ignored warning calls. “For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” it states.
Mr McDonald and Dr Jenkins denied that the British had been warned, adding that even if they had “this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths”.
I see no need to put quotation marks around “terrorists” when it comes to Hezbollah. Their leader just gave a speech from his bunker where he treatened to use his missles to attack chemical factories, unleashing poison gas on civilians.
Hmmm, using poison gas to kill Jews. I’ll bet the Israelis will back down from THAT threat, yessirree.
Are these guys THAT dumb or is it part of some actual strategy?
Are these guys THAT dumb or is it part of some actual strategy?
Hard to say.
Right now, I’m just trying to figure out what Mr. Maxwell’s angle is.
PAD,
Did hëll just freeze over? (just kidding)
Leave it to you to put a spin on Bush’s words that I never thought of.
Iowa Jim
“We fought for our independence. We thought it was the right way . . . If I had to fight for Israel, I swear even now I would do anything.”
it is a pretty bad time to be celebrating the bombing of a hotel in which 92 people died.
just shows that people who are fighting for a homeland will often use any means necessary.
in fact, from a somewhat warped view of history, the existence of Israel could be seen as evidence that terrorism works.
-will meyer
Sasha: Really? Did American soldiers actually fight side-by-side with the IDF during its wars? Getting materiel is a far cry from having “his big brother behind him”. And when you consider that the so-called little brother is constantly threatened to be beaten up (if not out-and-out killed) by not one entity but a gang of folk, you have a more accurate description of the situation.
Me: No, but consider that the implied threat is always there that the US will come to Israel’s defense. Heck, it’s been theorized in the current situation that Israel’s leaders are trying to draw Syria and Iran in to the conflict so America will act on their behalf.
Sasha: Do these flyovers usually result in bombs dropped or is it just surveilance?
Me: Doesn’t matter whether bombs are dropped or not. The fact remains that when a military jet fighter invades foriegn air space it’s meant to be a threat. The USSR felt the same way about our U2.
Sasha: When a Palestian organization specificallly attacks a civilian target with the specific intent of killing as many non-combatants as possible and creating as much havoc as possible, what is it except terrorism? Yeah, Israel acts like a bully sometimes, but far more frequently than you give it credit for, it acts pretty honorably.
Me: Actually I see both the flyover and the attacking of civilians by Hamas in the same space. Terrorism is not a lifestyle, it’s a tactic. By definition, Terrorism does not only take one form. If the idea is to kill the people in the building first, then it’s just murder. But when the intent is to scare your enemy, to make them sleepless and on edge, that is terrorism. So flying a jet fighter over people’s houses so that children can’t even sleep is terrorism the same as bombing a mall and causing people to not want to go to malls anymore.
Sasha: By this statement, are you saying that you believe that the militants that Israel fights are both violent and evil?
Actually both the Israelis and those they are now attacking are violent. Evil however, I believe, is not a state of being. Evil is an action. We don’t know what is in someone’s mind or heart but we do know their actions and can infer somewhat their intent from it. When you terrorize people, you are indeed taking evil action.
I myself will add that there is a solution to this whole thing, but I’m not sure anyone in charge would ever do it. It’s really quite simple and sane. Ready? Just. Stop.
Michael
gonna quote from an article by Michael Lerner here,
It’s ludicrous to try to establish “blame” in the sense of who did what first. Incidents of violence on the part of Palestinians and their allies cannot be separated from the constant violence of the Occupation, the continual kidnapping by the IDF of Palestinian civilians who are held in prison camps without charges or trial for as long as six months, often enduring torture as documented by the Israeli Human Rights Organization B’Tselem.
Nor can the violence of the Occupation be separated from the misguided policies of many Palestinians who have never been willing to unequivocally acknowledge the legitimacy and right of the Jewish people to the same kind of national self-determination in the land of Palestine that Palestinians rightly demand for themselves; nor from the equally misguided fantasy that peace and prosperity will come from violence rather than from the non-violent strategies used by Gandhi, MLK Jr., and Mandela in his later years.
So flying a jet fighter over people’s houses so that children can’t even sleep is terrorism the same as bombing a mall and causing people to not want to go to malls anymore.
i’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that i really can’t draw a direct moral equivalence between the two. acts that don’t kill people will almost always be far better than acts that do kill people.
that said, the flyovers do seem to be no more than an attempt to terrorize a civilian population. this seems to me a particularly stupid tactic and not something i can condone.
-will meyer
Sasha:
‘Nope. According to this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/lebanon.evacuation/index.html), evacuees would have had to pay to be evacuated out of Lebanon. Apparently realizing that his approval rating could actually go lower, the Bush adminstration has waived the “fee to flee.”‘
Wow, reading a lot into this aren’t we? Lowering approval ratings??? According to the article you linked to, this policy has been in effect since 1956. If anything, using your logic, poll numbers should go up since Bush waived this fee.
There’s plenty of stuff to slam Bush and the administration for, but changing a bad policy should not be one of them.
At about 4:00 a.m. on July 12, an Israeli air force plane bombed a three-story building in the Sheikh Radwan neighborhood in Gaza city. The bomb caused the building to collapse and killed Nabil and Salwah Abu Selmiyeh , who lived in the building that was bombed, and seven of their children: Nasrallah, age 4; Aya, age 7; Yihya, age 9; Ayman, age 12; Huda, age 14; Sumayah, age 16; and Basma, age 17. Another son, ‘Awad, age 19, was moderately injured. In addition, another 40 people who lived in the adjacent buildings were injured.
According the IDF Spokesperson’s statement, the house that was shelled “served as a hideout for senior activist in the Hamas military wing, including Muhammad Deif who was in the building at the time of the attack. At the time, those present were planning the continued military activity of Hamas.” According to media reports, the father of the family, Nabil Abu Salmiya, who was killed, was a lecturer at the Islamic University and a Hamas activist. However, the IDF statement does not mention Nabil or Salwah Abu Selmiyeh by name, nor any of their seven children killed in the bombing. As in similar cases in the past, the military has not provided evidence or additional details to explain or justify the killing of innocent civilians.
Considering the location of the building in the heart of a crowded neighborhood, the fact that the building itself housed a family of ten, and the time chosen for the attack – in the early hours of the morning – those who planned the bombing should have known that widespread harm to civilians was inevitable.
The principle of proportionality, a central pillar of international humanitarian law to which Israel is obligated, prohibits conducting an attack, even against a legitimate military target, if it is known that the attack will cause harm to civilians that is excessive compared to the anticipated military advantage. Israel bears the burden of proof that a particular attack was expected to achieve a military advantage significant enough to justify harming civilians. This burden of proof also requires proof that there was no reasonable alternative to the attack. Violation of the principle of proportionality is defined as a war crime, and therefore carries individual criminal liability for those responsible.
“You said you were Saudi iirc.
After what’s happening in your own country, YOU have no right to speak about our democratic elections either”
“Whoa, lorshas lives in Saudi Arabia? And he’s giving us crap about how we handle our democracy???”
do i have to say that dictatorships are not elected
And Mr.Myers the problem with the deal was that it was all or nothing , their would be no More negotiations
and why do you keep talking about the clam for the land , the Palestinians now just want the part allocated to them and move on , i don’t deny that Hamas want all but you also have to admit their are Israeli parties that want all , and that both of them have always looked to destroy negotiations.
“Oh, and lorshas, before you go on another ridiculous, paranoid rant about how the U.S. is behind every dictatorship in your region, pay attention to your region’s own history. The Iranians overthrew their U.S.-backed government in the 1970s”
Whats to be paranoid you admitted the US is backing dictatorships.
and do a Little more wikies the fundamentalists cam after a period not with the overthrow.
on the subject of Iran their is a great graphic novel bot I forgot what the name is.
Lorshas: and why do you keep talking about the clam for the land , the Palestinians now just want the part allocated to them and move on , i don’t deny that Hamas want all but you also have to admit their are Israeli parties that want all , and that both of them have always looked to destroy negotiations.
I could be wrong but I don’t think I am when I say that Hamas and Al Quaeda are to the Middle East as the KKK and Aryan Brotherhood are to the US. In other words, the extreme elements do not neccesarily reflect the will of the majority.
There is always the argument that the Palestinians elected Hamas and the Lebanese elected Hezzbollah to posts in government but then again, look who runs the majority in our congress, presidency and Supreme Court right now.
Michael
Bill Myers:
“If the Palestinians want to play the “your land was my land” game, then they have to acknowledge that at one time, albeit thousands of years ago, their land belonged to the Jews. I don’t care how long ago it was, because no one has yet answered my question as to the exact number of years after which the statute of limitations kicks in”
There is one difference: The Jews that were kicked out of their land by Adriano are long dead, while there are still plenty of palestinians alive that were kicked out by Israel. If you want to see a limitation kicking in, thats a good point to start.
>What the heck do you call the flyovers into Gaza if not terror?
Ummm … military operations carried out by military aircraft with military markings which the population can be warned against before it happens?
Rather different from a civilian carrying a concealed bomb into a cafe, wouldn’t you say?
>let’s keep in mind that technically speaking, Israel has never won a war on it’s own. The US always helps them.
“The Big Lie”. There has been no hard evidence of this in real life. Not for the Six Day War at any rate. It was something concocted by the Arab propaganda bureaus because they couldn’t accept that Israel had whipped them all on its own. Consider: the majority of the damage was caused by the Israeli Air Force, and at least a third of that – the best third, too – was comprised of French Mirage III aircraft. The rest were mostly Skyhawks. The F4s and F15s didn’t show up until later conflicts.
>EVERY conquerer has considered legitimate resistance to be ‘terrorism’.
And I can call a shark a begonia. Doesn’t make it so. In WW II, French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups unceasingly hit German military targets. Not once, to the best of my knowledge, did they ever deliberately target a busload of civilians. Or go into Germany to shoot up German kids. There IS a difference.
in fact, from a somewhat warped view of history, the existence of Israel could be seen as evidence that terrorism works.
It’d have to be a pretty dámņ warped view, imo, when Jews have to constantly fight just to keep from being wiped out of existance.
The argument of whether or not the creation of Israel was justified is purely an academic one at this point. The fact is, it’s a done deal. Israel exists, it’s not going anywhere, and it will continue to defend itself as it deems appropriate.
Hamas and Hezbollah have it in their power to stop Israel’s retaliations. All they have to do is stop bombing Israel. Of course, they don’t want it to stop, which is why they deliberately position themselves in densely populated areas. That way, when Israel is forced to retaliate, they can maximize the risk for civilian casualties.
Hezbollah knows they don’t have the capability to destroy Israel on their own, so their goal is to provoke enough outrage on the Arab Street in order to create a wider conflict and draw the other Arab nations into a direct war with Israel again.
What exact is it that Israel could do that would make Hamas and Hezbollah happy? They withdrew from Lebanon and the bombings continued. They gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt and the bombings continued. They gave the Palestinian Authority control of the West Bank and the bombings continued. They withdrew their settlements from Gaza and the bombings continued. How much territory are they expected to cede in order to get the attacks to stop?
The answer from Hamas and Hezbollah, of course, is “all of it”. So, instead of trying to build a Palestinian state, they’ve done everything they could to keep the terrorist attacks going. And the ordinary people, both Arab and Israeli, have suffered for it.
For once, I am also in agreement with Bush, it’s time for someone to tell Hezbollah to cut this sh*t out. Accept that Israel isn’t going to be destroyed and work towards a goal that will actually benefit your people.
‘Nope. According to this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/lebanon.evacuation/index.html), evacuees would have had to pay to be evacuated out of Lebanon. Apparently realizing that his approval rating could actually go lower, the Bush adminstration has waived the “fee to flee.”‘
Wow, reading a lot into this aren’t we? Lowering approval ratings??? According to the article you linked to, this policy has been in effect since 1956. If anything, using your logic, poll numbers should go up since Bush waived this fee.
That’s my point. If the administration hadn’t gotten an earful on the “fee to flee”, I honestly question if Bush would have bothered to waive it. If he hadn’t waived it despite the outcry, he would have gotten hammered for it.
There’s plenty of stuff to slam Bush and the administration for, but changing a bad policy should not be one of them.
He didn’t change the policy, he simply waived it in this instance. I’m just not surprised he hadn’t preemptively done it.
Hmmm, using poison gas to kill Jews. I’ll bet the Israelis will back down from THAT threat, yessirree.
Are these guys THAT dumb or is it part of some actual strategy?
Of course it’s part of a strategy. Hezbollah wants as much tension as possible. It’s the best way to make sure that conflict becomes inevitable and that the peace process is indefinitely scuttled.
Anything that might actually provoke Israel to act preemptively is just gravy.
Den, you just said perfectly in a few short paragraphs what I tried but failed to say in a lot of long-winded posts. So I will jump on the bandwagon and merely add, “Yeah, what Den said.”
So I will jump on the bandwagon and merely add, “Yeah, what Den said.”
And here’s my “me too” post.
Me too. 🙂
Me: No, but consider that the implied threat is always there that the US will come to Israel’s defense. Heck, it’s been theorized in the current situation that Israel’s leaders are trying to draw Syria and Iran in to the conflict so America will act on their behalf.
They exact same argument could be made the other way. (That Hezbollah is acting up, hoping to draw other Middle East powers into the conflict on their behalf.) It’s pretty much a wash.
Me: Actually I see both the flyover and the attacking of civilians by Hamas in the same space. Terrorism is not a lifestyle, it’s a tactic. By definition, Terrorism does not only take one form. If the idea is to kill the people in the building first, then it’s just murder. But when the intent is to scare your enemy, to make them sleepless and on edge, that is terrorism. So flying a jet fighter over people’s houses so that children can’t even sleep is terrorism the same as bombing a mall and causing people to not want to go to malls anymore.
I’m sure you agree that there is a difference between saber-rattling and actually cutting off heads. I don’t believe that intimidation quite rises to the level of terrorism, but I see why you believe flyovers are a bad thing.
Actually both the Israelis and those they are now attacking are violent. Evil however, I believe, is not a state of being. Evil is an action. We don’t know what is in someone’s mind or heart but we do know their actions and can infer somewhat their intent from it. When you terrorize people, you are indeed taking evil action.
This is why I don’t equate flyovers with bombings as both being terrorism. Unnerving civilians with jet fighter flights is bad; specifically targeting them with suicide bombings is evil.
I myself will add that there is a solution to this whole thing, but I’m not sure anyone in charge would ever do it. It’s really quite simple and sane. Ready? Just. Stop.
Amen, brother. Amen
Posted by: lorshas at July 20, 2006 04:59 AM
and do a Little more wikies the fundamentalists cam after a period not with the overthrow.
lorshas, Wikipedia is far from my only source of information. I have a college education. I read newspapers, magazines, and books. I see the news on T.V. and hear it on the radio.
My only point about Wikipedia is that I will sometimes go there to confirm what I believe to be the facts. If Wikipedia contradicts my understanding of something, I look for other sources to corroborate Wikipedia. If, after reviewing multiple reliable sources, I conclude I am wrong about the facts, then I reconsider my opinions. If, however, Wikipedia confirms what I already understand to be the facts, then I feel I can proceed with confidence.
I am aware that Wikipedia has a serious flaw: anyone can edit it in real time and add bogus information to an article. Wikipedia administrators will eventually weed that crap out, but by the time they do you may already have read it.
That’s why I don’t use Wikipedia as my sole source of information. It’s just a convenient tool to help me confirm facts I’ve learned from other sources that aren’t handy at the time I write these posts.
You have milked the “Wiki” thing for infinitely more than it was ever worth, and in the process you’re making a fool of yourself. It’s a very transparent ploy that’s fooling no one, by the way. Your “Wiki” taunts are a feeble attempt to distract me from the fact that you cannot refute my point about Iran.
The Iranians revolted against a U.S.-backed government. They had cause to be dissatisfied with the Shah, I’ll admit. But rather than creating Heaven on Earth with a new government, the revolutionaries managed to pave the way for an even worse regime. The U.S. had no involvement in setting up the backwards-looking thuggish theocracy that is choking the life out of Iran now. They did that without our help.
Yes, the U.S. is supporting some dictatorships in the Middle East, but it is NOT supporting ALL OF THEM as you incorrectly asserted. Moreover, the existence of Iran serves to point out that Arabs cannot reasonably blame all of their problems on the U.S. and Israel.
As long as a significant number of Arabs continue to buy into the hateful, twisted and unrealistic propaganda of radical Islam, and as long as governments like Saudi Arabia continue to covertly support those movements as a form of tribute in hopes of keeping radical Islam appeased, then Arabs will continue to suffer.
You can continue to say “Wiki” to your heart’s content, but it is not a magic word that will erase that reality.
The principle of proportionality, a central pillar of international humanitarian law to which Israel is obligated, prohibits conducting an attack, even against a legitimate military target, if it is known that the attack will cause harm to civilians that is excessive compared to the anticipated military advantage. Israel bears the burden of proof that a particular attack was expected to achieve a military advantage significant enough to justify harming civilians. This burden of proof also requires proof that there was no reasonable alternative to the attack. Violation of the principle of proportionality is defined as a war crime, and therefore carries individual criminal liability for those responsible.
And suicide bombings which specifically target civilians are what, candygrams?
Pretty much everyone here who has stated support for Israel has also admitted that Israel has made some wrong-headed mistakes in the past (and present) and/or share some culpability with the tensions arising from the Palistinian issue.
Tell me, Mr. Maxwell — do you believe that the Palestinians and larger Arab community have made or are making any mistakes and/or share responsibility for the problems in the region? Or do you sincerely believe it’s all entirely Israel’s fault?
Den says:
“The argument of whether or not the creation of Israel was justified is purely an academic one at this point. The fact is, it’s a done deal. Israel exists, it’s not going anywhere, and it will continue to defend itself as it deems appropriate.”
And I agree.
“Hamas and Hezbollah have it in their power to stop Israel’s retaliations. All they have to do is stop bombing Israel. Of course, they don’t want it to stop, which is why they deliberately position themselves in densely populated areas. That way, when Israel is forced to retaliate, they can maximize the risk for civilian casualties.”
And I disagree. Al-qusam rockets are Al-Fatah’s, not Hama’s. Ever since Hamas won the elections they have mantained an unilateral cease fire, wich only ended when Israeli troops entered Gaza again, and even then, not inmediatly. Hamas, although is responsible for terrorist attacks and mantains a hardcore program, is also known for keeping their agreements. When the soldier was kidnapped, they publicy demanded for the captors to free him. All analists Ive heard or read these past weeks mentioned how Hamas wasnt taking violent actions against Israel even tho the IDF attacked Palestinian Authority buildings and “arrested” elected officials.
Shlomo Ben-Ami, former Israeli foreihgn minister and security expert, as well as others Ive read, are of the oppinion that Israel should learn to negotiate with Hamas because the organization has proven more reliable and thrustworthy than any other player in the Palestinian field, ever. They might be bigots and killers, but history tells us past terrorists can become tomorrow’s men of peace (Michael Collins, Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, Gerry Adams…).
Also, the tactics the IDF is using in Gaza, such as sonic booms at low altitude in the middle of the night, cutting water supply and bombing civilian power plants are far from anti-terrorist measures and well into mass punition tactics.
“Hezbollah knows they don’t have the capability to destroy Israel on their own, so their goal is to provoke enough outrage on the Arab Street in order to create a wider conflict and draw the other Arab nations into a direct war with Israel again.”
Again I agree. Hezbolah is using its almost untouchable position withing Lebanon politics to act as Syria’s puppet and maneuver Lebanon into falling again into it’s master hands.
“What exact is it that Israel could do that would make Hamas and Hezbollah happy? They withdrew from Lebanon and the bombings continued. They gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt and the bombings continued. They gave the Palestinian Authority control of the West Bank and the bombings continued. They withdrew their settlements from Gaza and the bombings continued. How much territory are they expected to cede in order to get the attacks to stop?”
Actually, Egypt is by far the most Israeli-friendly nation in the Arab world. So friendly Israeli citizens go there on vacation often. About the West bank, you should see a map of the Palestinian Authority real “authority”. It looks like a puzzle with 50% of the pieces missing, since there is a huge amount of Israeli “settlers” and their security comes allways first. Settlers that dont bother to hide their racial hatred of arabs, their belief on “Great Israel” and who doesnt hesitate muggin families out of their lands or destroy palestinian plantations. I remember once seeing footage of an arab farmer crying because nearby settlement guys armed with automatic riffles had killed his donkeys and poured cement into his well so he could not work a land that they deemed “too close to us for us to feel safe”. Olmert’s plan to remove those settlers would be a good start (although he doesnt plan to remove all), and as far as I know, many Israeli agree. But until that happens, their presence there becomes unbearable.
It is not like Israel would be giving chunks of its land. Its land seized from Jordan and Egypt, who have long forgotten their chances to have it back. People like Rabbi Kahane made this situation all the worse with his racist campaign to create a Great Israel and “drive all arabs from our god given land”, who created the illusion in too many that that is Israel and that giving that land back to arabs would be a concession, to cede, when its only reparation.
As usual Peter David your pro Israeli rant is nauseous. I think you need to get it into your head that Israel is the bully in the Middle East with its high tech weaponry provided by the US. Look at the casualty figures yourself more Lebanese killed than Israelis. Israel itself is a ‘terrorist’ state.
Israel needs to ‘knock this šhìŧ off’ itself.
To some here:
Do you realize labeling Iran “Arab” is incorrect?
Also, I dont like Iran regime. I dont like its laws on morality and public expresion or women rights. But…
Since its the only country in the Gulf who holds democratic (although limited, but that happens in many democracies) ellections, allow women to vote, drive, go to university… I abhor the grip shiite clerics keep on the country, but there is a peaceful, slow struggle for things to change. All the iranians have done since they drove the Sha away, good or bad, they have done it their way. There are setbacks and mistakes, but they are achieving whatever their destiny might be their way. Real democracy and freedom only deserves its name when its hard earned on your own means, and its never achieved fast nor easily. But Iranians are doing it. Slowly. But anyone looking closely, anyone unbiased, can see they are moving.
Actually, Egypt is by far the most Israeli-friendly nation in the Arab world.
Really? I assumed it was Jordan.
As usual Peter David your pro Israeli rant is nauseous. I think you need to get it into your head that Israel is the bully in the Middle East with its high tech weaponry provided by the US. Look at the casualty figures yourself more Lebanese killed than Israelis. Israel itself is a ‘terrorist’ state.
Israel needs to ‘knock this šhìŧ off’ itself.
Now that you’ve gotten that out of your system, do you have anything thoughtful and constructive to contribute?
Jordan monarch is pro-western, for sure, but with the largest palestinian refugee population, their relationship with Israel cant be better than cool good neighbour, while Egypt and Israel even dare to share economic projects.
And I disagree. Al-qusam rockets are Al-Fatah’s, not Hama’s. Ever since Hamas won the elections they have mantained an unilateral cease fire, wich only ended when Israeli troops entered Gaza again, and even then, not inmediatly.
Okay, perhaps I over stepped when I included Hamas in the current actions, but historically, they have launched terrorist attacks against Israel. Perhaps now that they have a government to run, they, like Arafat before them, think they can earn respectability. A good start would be to reign in the other terrorist groups in Gaza and the West Bank.
Actually, Egypt is by far the most Israeli-friendly nation in the Arab world. So friendly Israeli citizens go there on vacation often.
True, but I didn’t say the bombings were coming from Egypt now, did I? My point is that Israel has returned nearly all of the territory it took in the 6-day war and other conflicts and that still has failed to mollify groups like Hezbollah. Their only goal is the complete destruction of Israel. And they don’t care how many of their fellow Muslims die in the process.
About the West bank, you should see a map of the Palestinian Authority real “authority”. It looks like a puzzle with 50% of the pieces missing, since there is a huge amount of Israeli “settlers” and their security comes allways first.
The settlements have always been a problem and it’s a point where I will agree that Israel has not always acted in the best interests of peace. The more settlements they built in West Bank, the more attacks they invited, and the more need for IDF forces to act in those territories.
The irony is, I think Sharon and now Olmert had come to realize that the settlements had become more trouble than the were worth. The fact that before his stroke, Sharon had moved away from his former militancy towards a more moderate stance was encouraging. The process of dismantling the settlements, though, has now been set back by Hezbollah. Again, that’s because they don’t care if Israel pulls completely out of the West Bank. They wan Israel pull completely out of the Middle East or die.
People like Rabbi Kahane made this situation all the worse with his racist campaign to create a Great Israel and “drive all arabs from our god given land”, who created the illusion in too many that that is Israel and that giving that land back to arabs would be a concession, to cede, when its only reparation.
Israel has its share of radicals, too. That’s a given. But Kahane isn’t part of the Israeli government. In contrast, Hezbollah now controls a number of cabinet seats in Lebanon’s government and has a virtual free hand in the southern region. So which group of radicals is driving the conflict then?
Of course, the more attacks Hezbollah initiates, the more vocal and stronger the Israeli militants will become. If Israel feels too threatened, the militant parties could regain control of the government. And maybe that is what Hezbollah would like to see in the short term. The more militant Israel becomes, the more “outrage” Hezbollah can provoke in the Arab Street.
Do you realize labeling Iran “Arab” is incorrect?
This is true. Iranians are Persians and their native language is Farsi, not Arabic. Unfortunately, many Americans have a lazy way of equating Arab=Muslim. Not all Muslims are Arabs and not all Arabs are Muslims.
And while Iran does hold elections, the real political power remains in the hands of the Ayatollahs. We saw that when a reformist candidate did get elected president and failed to make any real change in their government. The majority of Iranian people would love nothing more than to see the end of tensions between their country and hte west and Iran could be the most pro-western middle-eastern country, but until they have real government reform, that isn’t likely to happen.
I think you need to get it into your head that Israel is the bully in the Middle East with its high tech weaponry provided by the US. Look at the casualty figures yourself more Lebanese killed than Israelis. Israel itself is a ‘terrorist’ state.
What exactly is your point here? That because Israel’s weapons are better than Hezbollah’s, they have no right to defend themselves?
We can discuss whether specific actions by Israel, such as the bombing of the Beirut airport are justified or necessary to limit Hezbollah’s capabilities to launch attacks, but to say that Israel is a terrorist state simply because their weapons are more advanced is ludicrous.
… I despise spam even more.
And with PAD at SDCC, this could be a long weekend. Anyways.
Den –
Unfortunately, many Americans have a lazy way of equating Arab=Muslim.
I don’t think it’s quite that simple, as I believe most Americans are aware that there are plenty of Africans and Asians that are Muslim as well, and so forth. IIRC, Indonesia is the largest-Muslim population country in the world.
That said, Iran is still considered part of the Middle East, so I think the association is more Middle East sans Israel = Arab.
The term Persian is rarely used, and to most probably brings up images of long extinct civilizations more than anything else. 🙂
The fact remains that when a military jet fighter invades foriegn air space it’s meant to be a threat
Better that than missiles, which is what’s flying over from the other side.
Actually I see both the flyover and the attacking of civilians by Hamas in the same space. Terrorism is not a lifestyle, it’s a tactic. By definition, Terrorism does not only take one form. If the idea is to kill the people in the building first, then it’s just murder. But when the intent is to scare your enemy, to make them sleepless and on edge, that is terrorism. So flying a jet fighter over people’s houses so that children can’t even sleep is terrorism the same as bombing a mall and causing people to not want to go to malls anymore.
I honestly don’t know where to begin. I’m not sure we are even within flying distance of being able to seriously discuss this–our views are too far apart. I know you aren’t insane but if I ever say anything that what you just wrote it will only be because I HAVE gone insane.
I myself will add that there is a solution to this whole thing, but I’m not sure anyone in charge would ever do it. It’s really quite simple and sane. Ready? Just. Stop.
And if the other side doesn’t stop? Do you just smile in the comfort of your moral superiority as they cut your throat. It’s a lovely sentiment and makes sense if you smoke a lot of weed but for those on both sides who are stuck in Realityville (Right off of Nobullshit Blvd) that’s not really a plan.
i don’t deny that Hamas want all but you also have to admit their are Israeli parties that want all , and that both of them have always looked to destroy negotiations.
Yes but the difference is that Hamas is the elected leader of the Palestinians! The fanatical Jewish parties are a minority in Israel.
There is one difference: The Jews that were kicked out of their land by Adriano are long dead, while there are still plenty of palestinians alive that were kicked out by Israel. If you want to see a limitation kicking in, thats a good point to start.
So it’s been what, 60 years? If Israel can hold out for another 20 or so the remaining surviving Palestinians who were “kicked out” (as opposed to “left to join the armies against Israel and had their áššëš handed to them”) will be a very small number. Somehow, I don’t think that will end it. Their children and their grandchildren will still lay a claim.
Of course it’s part of a strategy. Hezbollah wants as much tension as possible. It’s the best way to make sure that conflict becomes inevitable and that the peace process is indefinitely scuttled.
Oh I agree but it’s DUMB strategy. The Arab states have tolerated and supported these people only because they have served a purpose. I’m not sure that they really WANT things to get totally out of hand. Maybe Iran does but most Arabs I know are not too fond of Persians (and the feeling is far more than mutual). I think the reaction from the Arabs has been curiously muted. They may weep few tears if Hezballah is crippled.
Den: add me to the chorus of those who say “Right on, Bro.” My, this issue has made for interesting bedfellows. PAD, Bill M, the other Bill M, Craig, Iowa Jim and Den, side by side, shoulder to shoulder. I’m half expecting something sane from John Byrne to show up.
As usual Peter David your pro Israeli rant is nauseous. I think you need to get it into your head that Israel is the bully in the Middle East with its high tech weaponry provided by the US. Look at the casualty figures yourself more Lebanese killed than Israelis. Israel itself is a ‘terrorist’ state.
Dumb argument. Proportionality has nothing to do with the numbers killed. The Germans lost more at the Battle of the Bulge than we did. I’ll use little words so you can understand; when you cowardly kill civilians as a means toward a political end and you cowardly hide out amongst civilians because you know that your enemy is reluctant to take out entire cities to root you out, you are a cowardly terrorist. To hear these useless wastes of carbon brag about carrying on in the tradition of Saladin…they aren’t worthy of licking the soles of his shoes.
El Hombre–Is Iran really “Since its the only country in the Gulf who holds democratic…elections”? The limited power of the people is such that I don’t know that it’s really worthy of being called a democracy (Hey, Saddam “won” the “vote” too!). The Iranians are indeed moving and I greatly, GREATLY, look forward to the day when a lot of clerics are lined up against the wall with seriously puzzled “Whoa, how the hëll did THIS happen?” expressions on their faces while they get the full Nicolae Ceauşescu treatment.
According to one source (tony Blair at http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page9870.asp) Hezballah has launched “1,600 rockets and mortars” at civilian targets in Israel.
Now to you “proportionality” fans I ask–how should Israel’s response be measured? Should they be allowed exactly 1,600 reprisals? True, the rockets and mortors have not killed 1,600 people but that just luck and poor skills on the Hezballah front, it isn’t for lack of trying. Or, if we assume that an Israeli soldier is 10 times as smart and skilled as a Hezballah goon (rough estimate but probably close) are they only allowed 160 responses?
Does anyone seriously–seriously–doubt that if Hezballah actually had the ability to decide where their rockets would land they wouldn’t choose to have them land in the place where they would kill the most Israelis, civilian or not? Does anyone seriously believe that if the Israelis couldn’t have racked up civilian casulaties in the tens of thousands by now if that were their goal?
The term Persian is rarely used, and to most probably brings up images of long extinct civilizations more than anything else. 🙂
That and rugs. 🙂
“One of Saudi Arabia’s leading Wahhabi sheiks, Abdullah bin Jabreen has issued a strongly worded religious edict, or fatwa, declaring it unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah, the Shiite militias lobbing missiles into northern Israel.”
http://www.nysun.com/article/36373
Hmmmm…….interesting.
On the Iranians vs. Arabs issue: okay, sorry, mea culpa. Let’s not let that distract us from the salient issue, though: that Iran is a theocratic dictatorship. I don’t care that they hold elections, because they’re sham elections. Most dictatorships do that. Doesn’t mean they’re not dictatorships.
A mobster can hide behind a legitimate business, but he’s still a mobster if he, y’know, works for or runs a mob.
To those who continue to spout the mantra of proportionality: okay, what is the correct ratio of Israeli lives to Lebanese and Palestinian lives? 1:1? 2:3? 5:2?
Well???
A “proportionate” response would amount to more of the same “tit for tat” war of attrition that’s been going on in that region for decades. It’s a short-term solution that won’t serve anyone’s interests in the long run. Israel wants to hit Hamas and Hezbollah hard enough so that they don’t have the strength to invade Israel again. It’s a logical long-term solution.
To michael j. norton, regarding your comparison of Hamas/Hezbollah to the KKK: are you on crack? There’s a major difference you’re choosing to ignore in order to make your crazy world-view work: the KKK doesn’t enjoy the support of the U.S. Government, nor is it supported by the mainstream of American society. I even know some bigots who revile the KKK!
On the other hand, Hezbollah and Hamas enjoy a great deal of mainstream support amongst the Lebanese and Palestinians respectively. They see them as freedom fighters. Then they cry out when their support of these fanatical death-cultists brings them misery. “Why should I suffer the logical consequence of my actions?” they cry. Gee, I dunno, because that’s the way the world is designed: cause and effect?
El hombre Malo: Iran supports groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. There is a woman named Nazanin in Iran who may be hanged for daring to kill a man as he attempted to rape her (she didn’t even mean to kill him, she was just trying to defend herself). In spite of their rhetoric to the contrary, it’s plain to see that they’re trying to start a nuclear weapons program.
Progress? You’re joking, right?
Maqbool: I think you need to “get it into your head” that you’re playing with some of the big boys, here. Some very smart people post here, regularly, and in order to keep up with them, you’re going to need to bring more to the table then chest-thumping nonsense like that. If you can’t craft a logical, facts-based argument, you’re going to get cut to shreds.
I know that I have the reputation for generally being “Mr. Nice Guy,” or at least that’s what some of you have told me. I’m probably going to lose that reputation by the time this thread has cooled off. And I just don’t give a dámņ. It boils my blood to see so many nonsensical statements being made about this conflict. Yeah, people ARE dying. That’s why I think it’s mportant to look at this realistically. A “pie-in-the-sky pass-another-joint give-peace-a-chance teach-in” ain’t gonna do it, folks.
I was once one of those “let’s just turn the other cheek ’cause all war is wrong” types. But I’ve come to the conclusion that in some cases, it is immoral not to fight. Because in some cases, not fighting elicits more violence.
Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance bore fruit for India because Britain had a conscience to which such a movement could appeal. Hamas and Hezbollah are attacking a nation that has already made unilateral concessions in the form of abandoning occupied territories. Those groups do NOT have a conscience to which you can appeal through non-violent resistance.
Micha, haven’t heard from you. I know it may seem presumptuous that so many of us are making statement’s on Israel’s behalf. But, you know, I for one believe Israel is deserving of U.S. support and want to say so.
I hope to see the occassional odd post from you just to let us know you’re OK.
Yeah, the Persian Empire is long dead, but the term is still a far more accurate marker of cultural identity for the majority of the inhabitants of Iran than “Arab”.
Gee, all these praises for my post. I guess the Lexapro really has evened out my moods and made me more rational.
As a “proportionality fan” I have given the reasons on why I think Israel reaction both in Gaza and Lebanon was disproportionate. Since Talking of tactics and long term goals doesnt seem to do the trick, lets try a new angle. Awnser me this instead:
1- What is the purpose of low altitude sonic booms over populated areas in Gaza? I know the IDF actually said its meant to keep terrorists awake and on the verge of breakdown. How does that breakdown affects the civilian population that can’t go nowhere?
2- I understand on a military conflict cutting supply lines is an optimal tactic and many here mantain that bombing the power plant that supplies 60% of Gaza was only a logical step under that tactic. Would it’ve been so much different to just get there with IDF tanks and cut the supply without destroying the infraestructures?
3- I think no one here deny Israel owns the skies on the region. Ive heard an USAF officer comment once that there are no better combat pilots in the world than Israel’s. Why is it so necesary then to bomb Gaza Airport, again a civil infraestructure?
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Let me comment here that the European Union have been funding civilian projects in Palestine, like hospitals, the airport, a fishing harbour, power plants. All under the assumption that a prosperous Palestinian economy would reduce violence. Israel have targeted those infraestructures every time šhìŧ happened. A terrorist bombs a bus? Let’s bomb the airport. I fail to see the logic in that other than punish palestinian economy and force people to finally flee from the territories, as is the desire of many in Israel’s parlament.
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4- How is it proportionate to bomb whole buildings full of people in Beirut when Hezbolah bases are in South Lebanon? Where is the logic in bombing Christian neighbourhoods? Tripoli is so far north Hezbolah doesnt even got votes there and still got bombed.
5- The Beirut lighthouse, the fisher’s harbour in the christian part of town, Airport… again in Lebanon the same pattern. What is the military goal in destroying these infraestructures?
6- We know Israel demands Lebanon army to go south and disarm Hezbolah. How bombing Lebanese army bases in Beirut, killing 30 soldiers, will make this happen? Are those dead soldiers a warning? “move or else…”?
Just a few questions, please, enlighten me, ease my doubts on Israel response.
“One of Saudi Arabia’s leading Wahhabi sheiks, Abdullah bin Jabreen has issued a strongly worded religious edict, or fatwa, declaring it unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah, the Shiite militias lobbing missiles into northern Israel.”
Very interesting indeed. I think we are seeing at least a few Islamic leaders who are seeing the big picture and that Hezbollah’s actions are triggering more suffering for the Lebanese people than they are advancing the cause of the Palestinian people.
the country was called Persia until 20something years ago…thats not long dead 😛