Since the Farpoint thread is quickly being hijacked by discussion the announced or pending cancellation of “Angel” and “Enterprise,” please continue all discussion about that topic over here. Thanx.
PAD
Since the Farpoint thread is quickly being hijacked by discussion the announced or pending cancellation of “Angel” and “Enterprise,” please continue all discussion about that topic over here. Thanx.
PAD
• 
There’s an online petition to get Angel picked back up, but here’s what James Marsters(Spike) has to say on the subject.
Update from the James Marsters forum…
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Quick Postcard Campaign to Save Angel
Unfortunately, emailing networks or posting in online petitions is a waste of time. As soon as they start getting emails, they set up spam filters to delete the mail and they don’t ever see what comes in. Waiting around for somebody to organize something is wasting precious time–organized campaigns are going to be great but here’s something you can do NOW.
If you want to actually do something that actually might–MIGHT–help to get another season for Angel…
DO THIS TOMORROW
1. Go and buy some postcards that show scenes from your city. Tourist postcards. Postcards that have the name of your town or city or area of the country on them. You don’t need anything fancy, just something that will show immediately where you are located so they know this is coming from all over.
2. Write a short message on the postcard in your own words saying that you want Angel to be renewed and support the show. Keep it positive. Don’t be insulting. Don’t be abusive.
3. Address the postcard to one of the people on the list of addresses in this message. Levin may ignore the cards coming into the WB, but the media outlets will see there’s a story in this and publicize it. The names on the list are in order of importance so start at the top and send as many postcards as you want to (or can afford to send).
4. Go and get at least six friends who probably aren’t reading this on the internet but would be willing to send postcards, and get them to do the same thing.
5. DO IT TOMORROW! Speed of response is what counts along with the size of the response. Don’t wait for instructions from some group. Just DO IT.
Here are the addresses to mail your cards to:
Matt Roush
TV Guide
Box 500
Radnor, PA 19088-0500
The Hollywood Reporter
Attn: Cynthia Littleton
5055 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90036-4396
Entertainment Tonight,
Paramount Pictures Domestic TV
Roddenberry Building
5555 Melrose Avenue
Hollywood, CA 90038
Extra
Warner Bros
4000 Warner Blvd.
Triangle Building, 4th Floor
Burbank, CA 91522
Entertainment Weekly
1675 Broadway New York
NY 10019
TNT is the best possibility to pick up Angel since they’ve gotten good ratings with the reruns and do some original programming.
Turner Network Television
Attn: Robert DeBitetto (pres, original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Turner Network Television
Attn: Julie Wietz (exec vp. original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Turner Network Television
Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318
Turner Network Television
Attn: Garth Ancier, Executive Vice-President, Programming
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318
Rumor is that Levin doesn’t accept cards or letters and they get returned, but a flood of mail might make news even if it doesn’t get through
Warner Brothers Network
Attn: Jordan Levin, CEO
4000 Warner Blvd., Building 34R
Burbank, CA 91522
(818) 977-5000
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And, if you want to send cards to Joss to express support and let him know the level of interest, here’s where to send them:
Joss Whedon
C/o Mutant Enemy Productions
PO Box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213
And to send cards supporting the cast and crew:
Angel Productions
20th Century Fox
PO Box, 900
Beverly Hills
CA, 90213-0900
Now, if you actually want to accomplish something, make some news, and maybe, just maybe, get a sixth season for Angel…
DO THIS TOMORROW AND DON’T PUT IT OFF!
Also, permission is given to repost this message to other lists, message boards and other places that are interested in supporting Joss and Angel. Spread the word and let’s do something quickly. Speed counts.
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Let me just add to that.
For further information on what you can do to help save Angel,go to http://www.renewangel.com/
Best wishes,
Scott
I like TV, and sometimes I’m unhappy to see shows I like end, but never enough to actually petition and whatnot.
Angel getting cancled is a huge disapointment. I have a few hopes for it being picked up by another network, but hearing that Enterprise is facing the same thing is just darn depressing.
Those are two of the only Primetime shows I even watch. My Dad and I love watching Enterprise, and it’s writing has been top notch, and really gives a feel of the TOS.
Angel also is just being cut down becuase it’s too popular, and thus too costly to keep. Sounds just like Buffy, but with no UPN net to catch it.
Enterprise cancelled?
There IS a God.
Now they just need to fire Berman and Braga.
Re: Trek Enterprise
What I have been reading is that it remains on the bubble. Les Moonves has yet to make a decision. It wouldn’t surprise me to see it cancelled because — wow — it blows. If you had asked me last year whether Paramount would ever cancel a Trek show in advance of its seventh season, my answer would have been ‘no.’
But since then, I’ve watched as VOYAGER and DS9 have done terrible in syndication ratings.
My theory has always been that Paramount invests in the Trek franchise to break even now, but make buckets of money years down the road through syndicated reruns.
Paramount is now seeing that model is no longer working. They have to ask themselves now where they’re gonna make their money in Trek?
I hear that Berman and Braga’s leadership of the franchise is under scrutiny by the good folks at Paramount. These guys should have been given the boot after INSURRECTION and most certainly after NEMESIS. Now, it may be too late to fix the problem…
But here’s my solution: Turn the lights off of at ENTERPRISE. Fire Berman and Braga, thanking them for their time. Regroup.
Hire new talent. Find some folks who know how to write character and plot, people who both understand Trek AND know how to engage an audience. THEN and only THEN create a new series revolving around the Enterprise-E with an all-new cast.
The thing I would encourage, this is key, is that they shouldn’t shoot another show or movie until they are bursting with the need to tell the story.
Face it, Enterprise is paycheck driven. There’s no story there aching to be told.
Aron Head
EvilBastard.net
I have to admit that sometimes I stay with a disappointing comic book because Im sure the creative team will either pick up the pace or leave and a new team will come aboard. I have felt the same about these 2 shows for awhile now. Season 5 has not really inpressed me and I am disappointed by more shows than I like of Enterprise. I really do think that Star Trek needs a break. Maybe a miniseries or two can take the place of a regular show. Angel on the other hand deserved another season.
Actually, Angel hasn’t been “Cacelled” so much as “Not Renewed”, in an interview on the subject Joss said it would run to the end of this season at least.
Paging UPN…Time to snatch another Whedon show from WB…
Nothing left for me to watch on WB…
I like Enterprise, it’s one of a handful of shows I watch every week and would be dissappointed to miss an episode.
As long as they finish up and don’t leave things hanging. 1 more season is ok. I’m more upset when shows are renewed and then cancelled with a cliffhanger ending anyway (FArscape).
As far as Angle goes, I’ve only been watching since last season, and this season I was waiting for reruns to watch. Guess I may have to waith for my buddy to get the DVD’s and then I’ll watch it.
I feel sorry for the people working on these shows and how they can find steady work.
I do agree the need to rid Trek of B&B is even stronger than Disney needs to get rid of Eisner. what’s Robert Wolf up to?
ANGEL’s had a decent run; much as one might like to see it continue, it may be just as well to ring down its curtain before the franchise disintegrates. Too, there is still much room in the Buffy/Angelverse for further storytelling in other series or other forms (what’s the current status of the RIPPER project?).
ENTERPRISE is a different animal. I don’t think the problem with the series rests entirely Berman & Braga, though I do think that the Trek franchise could benefit from fresher blood in the driver’s seat.
My issue with ENTERPRISE is one of series design. The reason the new show has had such difficulty telling fresh stories is that it uses exactly the same template as that of TOS, TNG, and VOYAGER: starship command crew wanders the galaxy and has adventures. It’s a decent template, to be sure, but it becomes more and more difficult over time to do new things with that template.
DS9 succeeded largely by not using the starship-command-crew template; it was still Star Trek, but it wasn’t (mostly) a clone of TOS/TNG. By mostly staying in one place — and doing a good job of worldbuilding for that setting — the producers pushed the boundaries of the franchise and broadened the scope of the Trek universe.
Thus if I were pitching a new Trek series to succeed ENTERPRISE, I wouldn’t make it a starship show. I can think of at least two Trek-series concepts I would pitch instead; there’s a lot of room in the Federation universe for other series-types to work. (For evidence of which, see the newly released “Sam Cogley mystery” in the Trek paperback line.)
Nor is weekly series format the only prospect. I’ve long thought that one way to keep the franchise alive — and to make good use of established characters — might be to produce two or three made-for-TV features a year as “event” programming.
Ðámņ. Both of these are shows that i like… poor Joss loosing all three of his genius shows in one year… granted Buffy he ended by choice, but Firefly and Angel are getting canned unfairly. Isn’t Angel one of the WB’s highest rated shows?
As for Enterprise it was a bit slow at first but this last season its begun to pick back up. If they just got rid of that dámņ stupid intro…
I’d seen an Enterprise article a few weeks ago saying that they were cutting this season down to 24 eps, and were going to do the same for next year, yielding 2×26 + 2×24=102 total… just enough for syndication.
It’s not the seven season stuff that’s critical, it’s the 100-episode syndication mark. That’s a serious financial consideration. So they’d kill it now if they don’t think they can sell the 4-year package, or try to rescue it in the remaining 30 episodes so they can sell it forever.
Angel’s already hit 100, and WB doesn’t own the syndie rights anyway: any more that they push it means money in Fox’s coffers, and an expensive contract renegotiation too.
I cannot say that I will be upset to see Enterprise canceled. From the start of the third season, the show went from bad to worse and has continued it’s downward spiral, as far as I am concerned. The main complaint I had with it, aside from crappy writing of course, is that the promise of NOT rewriting history was blown early on in the first season. There were established TREK universe timelines that were just plain ignored and while I would normally not mind all that much, we’re talking about THIRTY years of history here.
As for Angel, I really enjoy the show a lot. Most of the time (if you can keep Boreanaz out of the director’s chair from now on…LOL) the episodes are very well done and quite entertaining. I will be profoundly sad to see it go off the air, if the cancellation does indeed, take place.
I think a Star Trek show featuring that new starship from ST:Voyager would be awesome. It was the ship in the episode when the Doctor was transmitted to the Alpha Quadrant via an alien relay and met that ship’s holo doctor. I can’t recall the name of the ship (Prometheus?) but it’s the ship could split into 3 vehicles for battles.
Just my 2 cents, of course…
I hear that Berman and Braga’s leadership of the franchise is under scrutiny by the good folks at Paramount. These guys should have been given the boot after INSURRECTION and most certainly after NEMESIS. Now, it may be too late to fix the problem…
Poor Harv Bennet, He produced one Trek movie that was a flop, (after doing what remains the most sucessful of the films) and he was told not to let the door hit him on the way out. Imagine his annoyance when looking at the current caretakers continuing to lose viewers by the boatload and somehow keep thier jobs. If Enterprise had been on any other network but UPN it would have been canned halfway though the first season, they can’t possibly argue that they didn’t have a chance to make it work. Might I suggest that if Paramount wants to try again they go with the “Starfleet Acedmy” concept, basically the adventures of a young James Kirk. Trek is supposed to be young people, (high school and college age kids was always it’s primary audience, not aging fanboys like myself), and a new show with a young cast and characters the audience is already familar with, (Kirk is already an ICON, something none of the spinoffs have ever managed to create no matter how hard they try) might help bring that audience back. Plus it has a built in hollywood pitch line “It’s SMALLVILLE meets STAR TREK”.
The main complaint I had with it, aside from crappy writing of course, is that the promise of NOT rewriting history was blown early on in the first season. There were established TREK universe timelines that were just plain ignored and while I would normally not mind all that much, we’re talking about THIRTY years of history here.
You have any examples of this? I thought that Enterprise did a good job of sticking to canon so far and I can’t think of any blatant examples of ignored continuity off the top of my head.
Um, examples?
Archer has met the borg, I believe, despite what happened in TNG. Oh, and wasn’t Spock the first Vulcan to serve aboard a starfleet vessel? (And yes, I know the argument about him being the first ‘Starfleet’ officer, but T-Pol is second in command, which makes her a de-facto one as well.
I definitely won’t miss Enterprise. I never found the show painfully bad like I did Voyager (I think I watched all of one episode after the mid-second season, the Sulu one), but I did find it very, very dull. Since I moved to Gainesville, we don’t have UPN – plus, of course, it’s on opposite Angel – so I haven’t bothered watching it.
Angel, on the other hand, I’ll miss. I’m a little concerned about it going on much longer; X-Files is the only genre show that I can think of that didn’t start going downhill in its sixth season. Buffy had a few very, very good eps in its sixth, but also several very bad ones. I do think this is the best season of Angel so far, though it’s kind of hard for me to judge, since I watched them so unconventionally (saw every single ep seasons 1-4 last summer).
We gave up on Enterprise this year. We watched the season opener to see the “new direction” and saw a rather shallow sexed-up action show. We’ve seen maybe two episodes since and weren’t impressed enough to tune back regularly. When Enterprise moves back opposite of West Wing, we won’t be recording or watching anymore.
My wife and I met at a Trek club, and I read Imzadi to her cover-to-cover. In recent years, though, Trek has suffered a great deal. We watched Voyager most of the time, but not all. However, Nemesis was the first and only Trek movie that I never saw in the theatre (for that matter I saw all the others opening day).
No longer can Paramount put the words Star Trek on anything and have a sure sale. When die-hards like us quit watching, Paramount has serious concerns.
** The main complaint I had with it, aside from crappy writing of course, is that the promise of NOT rewriting history was blown early on in the first season. There were established TREK universe timelines that were just plain ignored and while I would normally not mind all that much, we’re talking about THIRTY years of history here.
You have any examples of this? I thought that Enterprise did a good job of sticking to canon so far and I can’t think of any blatant examples of ignored continuity off the top of my head. **
Encounters with the Borg, Encounters with the Feringie, (both of which trample, unnessarily over Next Gen continuty). Kirk’s Enterprise no longer being the first ship to travel in time, (and by extension Kirk no longer being the first Captain to travel in time), Mind Melds being changed from scared part of Vulcan culture, used in thier religious cerimonies by thier high priest no less, to a disgusting habit that causes the Vulcan version of AIDS/Althimers. Vulcans being changed from cool logical aliens to know it all paraniod, bigoted jerks who spy on thier neighbors, surpress thier own population, lie to thier allies etc etc. And of course in 30+ years of continutiy no one ever mentioned an attack on earth that killed millions, (Strange, you would have thought that Spock or Data would have mentioned that somewhere along the way, you would have thought Wesly Crusher would have had to study it if nothing else), and of course we never befor heard of the aliens that were behind that attack.
Who can save Star Trek? I know he’s TECHNICALLY not fresh blood, but my first choice would be Ira Steven Behr. The DS9 Episodes he wrote were inventive. Sometimes they were dark, some times they made me laugh my ášš off, and other times they made turn my TV off for an hour after then end of the show so I could sit there and think. Sometimes all three at once.
If everyone is just going to sit around and say how sad they are going to be if Angel gets cancelled, and not speak out then it WILL get cancelled.
So don’t sit around and hope someone else steps up and saves the show. Every person helps! If you want this show to survive then help it survive!
And of course in 30+ years of continutiy no one ever mentioned an attack on earth that killed millions
Most of the folks I talk to believe that the finale for Enterprise will be a great big time knot invalidating the entire shows reality in order to make Kirk’s reality valid. Making it even lamer than Bobby Ewing’s shower, and nowhere near as much fun as “Emily, you should wear more sweaters.”
Enterprise will be remembered as largely apocryphal the same way the Trek Animated series is considered out of continuity. I’m not surprised by the imminent cancellation; Berman and Braga have been running on fumes and collecting paychecks for years. Here’s my heretical idea for the next Trek series…
Star Trek. The adventures of Captain James Tiberius Kirk, his Vulcan science officer Mr.Spock and irascible Doctor Leonard McCoy. Basically I’m calling for the “Ultimatization” of the originaly series. If you’re unfamiliar with the term (which I sort of doubt) Marvel relaunched some of its titles with a seperate continuity. I think the Original Series can be reimagined in 21st century terms, while keeping the optimisim and adventure of the 60’s incarnation. Remember it was a 60’s idea of what the next 300 years would be like.
BTX
Enterprise will be remembered as largely apocryphal the same way the Trek Animated series is considered out of continuity. I’m not surprised by the imminent cancellation; Berman and Braga have been running on fumes and collecting paychecks for years. Here’s my heretical idea for the next Trek series…
Star Trek. The adventures of Captain James Tiberius Kirk, his Vulcan science officer Mr.Spock and irascible Doctor Leonard McCoy. Basically I’m calling for the “Ultimatization” of the originaly series. If you’re unfamiliar with the term (which I sort of doubt) Marvel relaunched some of its titles with a seperate continuity. I think the Original Series can be reimagined in 21st century terms, while keeping the optimisim and adventure of the 60’s incarnation. Remember it was a 60’s idea of what the next 300 years would be like.
As long as we can sweep away all the unnessary garbage that was retconned in after the fact, (Kirk being a troublemaker who never followed orders, starfleet not being a military organization and it’s personal being exploriers not military men, Everyone in Starfleet getting along so nicly there was never any conflict) I’m all for it. Although I still think the starfleet acedmy concept might be the way to go.
And of course in 30+ years of continutiy no one ever mentioned an attack on earth that killed millions
Most of the folks I talk to believe that the finale for Enterprise will be a great big time knot invalidating the entire shows reality in order to make Kirk’s reality valid. Making it even lamer than Bobby Ewing’s shower, and nowhere near as much fun as “Emily, you should wear more sweaters.”
I saw this coming in the first season when much was being made about a temporal cold war. I’m hoping we’re wrong only because I can’t see producers being that stupid, really I can’t.
Enterprise will be remembered as largely apocryphal the same way the Trek Animated series is considered out of continuity.
You know it bothers me that the Animated series is out of continuty, sure there were some really lame stories but that’s true of the live action Trek. The animated show also had a few gems, (The follow up to the Tribles story, the Guardian of forever story where Spock traveled back in time and became his own uncle, an amuzing Harry Mudd story, a Larry Niven short story readapted as a Trek story), sure the animation was limited but some of the scripts were done by writers of the original series and all things concidered weren’t that bad. Plus Peter David and other writers have used some of the characters from the animated shows in the novels and comics, to good effect.
This is going to a long comment, responding to comments made by Jeff and Darren J. Hudak about Enterprise and it’s perceived lack of continuity with the other Star Trek shows.
Borg: It was established in Voyager (Dark Frontier) that at least some elements of the Federation knew of the Borg before Picard did. So they had to get that information from somewhere. I thought the Borg episode made things seem MORE consistent since they showed how the Borg apparently knew to attack the Federation even before “Q Who” (in “The Neutral Zone”), by having a signal go to them.
Spock: It’s never, ever been stated in any episode or movie that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. It may be ‘common knowledge’ among fans, but it still hasn’t been established by any onscreen, canon source. I wouldn’t mind if T’Pol joined Starfleet, since there is NOTHING to contradict other than the notion in many fans minds that something is fact when in fact it has no basis in Star Trek canon.
Ferengi: They made sure that they didn’t learn the name of the race that attacked the Enterprise. That may seem like a cop-out, and it is to an extent, but they did make an attempt to be consistent. Also, it was clear that people in the Federation knew of the Ferengi even before TNG, since there was a joke in “Encounter at Farpoint” about them. We were also expected to believe that Picard’s //Stargazer// was defeatedby the Ferengi several years before TNG without knowing much about them.
“Kirk’s //Enterprise// no longer being the first ship to travel in time”: Source please? I can’t recall where this was ever stated.
“Mind Melds being changed from scared part of Vulcan culture, used in thier religious cerimonies by their high priest no less, to a disgusting habit that causes the Vulcan version of AIDS/Althimers”: I’m pretty sure that it was previously established that the mind meld was an ancient ritual, and I don’t think “Fusion” contradicted that. The episode showed that the Vulcans people did not accept the Mind Meld at that time even though it was ancient. Obviously the Vulcan culture changes in the 100+ years after //Enterprise//.
“Vulcans being changed from cool logical aliens to know it all paraniod, bigoted jerks who spy on thier neighbors, surpress thier own population, lie to thier allies etc etc.”: I don’t think that the Vulcan attitude had changed that much, or at all. First of all, you can’t really consider Spock nor Serek to be typical Vulcans. The first was half-human and the other married at least two. Even so, Serek was shown to be stubborn at times, not speaking to Spock for years since he joined Starfleet. In “Yesteryear” it was shown that the other Vulcan children were mean. (I guess that taking TAS into a conversation about continuity and canon isn’t a good idea, but I feel it did set the tone of the Vulcans for many writers of later shows) “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” showed Vulcan behaviour not dissimilar to that of the Vulcans on Enterprise. Some Vulcans attitudes were different, like Tuvok, but it was established in “Flashback” that Tuvok’s parents wanted him to emulate Spock by also going into StarFleet. These examples should show that there are differences between individual Vulcans and those that are in higher up may not represent the entirety of Vulcan culture. (For the “lieing aspect” of Vulcans, Spock has been known to deveive at times, like in “The Enterprise Incident”. Also, part of the perceived change in Vulcan philosophy may also be attributed to the work of the Vulcans in “Fusion”.
“And of course in 30+ years of continutiy no one ever mentioned an attack on earth that killed millions, (Strange, you would have thought that Spock or Data would have mentioned that somewhere along the way, you would have thought Wesly Crusher would have had to study it if nothing else), and of course we never befor heard of the aliens that were behind that attack.”: The storyline is not done yet. It seems to me that the Expanse is going to be gone by the end of the season since the Sphere were artificially created. The main reason why they didn’t mention the attack in the other Star Trek series was that Enterprise wasn’t written yet, but of course that’s the obvious answer. I see two possibilities: Enterprise somehow erases the incident from the past, (note that it was mentioned by Daniels that the changes hadn’t reached the 29th century yet and it wasn’t supposed to happen), or that it did happen and it just wasn’t mentioned. How often was the Tomed incident mentioned? Once (I belive), in “The Neutral Zone”. Even though “thousands” of lives were lost. Why was it mentioned? Because it was relevant to the matter at hand. Why was the Earth-Romulan war mentioned in “Balance of Terror”? Because it was relevant. Why weren’t the Xindi mentioned in later series? Maybe they all died. Maybe they weren’t relevant to the situation at hand. Fans would complain either way: If they make up a new enemy, people will complain that they never heard of them before. If they use a known enemy (say the Romulans), they would complain that they don’t have an original idea no matter how well thought out the story is. Until we know how the story ends, we won’t have an idea about how ‘history’ will remember the incident.
Now, I thought the first two seasons of Enterprise were still pretty bad, but I don’t think they were bad because of continuity (which as I explained above I don’t think violated a lot) but rather of some pretty bad writing. I think it has improved greatly this season.
I’d like to see a new Trek series that focuses on both the Academy and Starfleet Medical. They can bring in Gates McFadden as Beverley Crusher full time again! Just as long as they don’t bring in B4–the only bad part of NEMESIS in my opinion.
Daniel
Good thing you created this entry for all the Angel talk to move to, PAD.
“Kirk’s //Enterprise// no longer being the first ship to travel in time”: Source please? I can’t recall where this was ever stated.
Spock mentions that they are the first to travel though time, (in fact, if memory serves, he specifically mentions that they proved time travel is possible), the first time in the old series that they traveled back in time.
The ONLY way out for Enterprise is for the powers that be tack on two extra episodes to the season for a total of 26 and then do the following:
-1- Wrap up the Xindi arc. Do what it takes, but by the end of the credits, get NX-01 out of the Expanse.
-2- End the temporal Cold War. But do it in a way that RESTORES the continuity as we ALL knew it prior to all of those resets as established by Enterprise.
-3- As a possible consequence of the end of the temporal Cold War, strand the NX-01 into the future. The 24th Century will do nicely. Now THAT would be a true fish-out-of-water series that would allow for the wonder and awe so sorely lacking in the series.
-4- Give the franchise a break. Two or three years will do nicely. Give the current regime their walking papers. And then find JMS, PAD, and a few other proven talents in the genre, and let them have a crack at it.
-5- You know, if the powers that be REALLY want to start a new series, I know of a starship captain with purple eyes that might well fit the ticket…
Cheers,
Bryan
And of course in 30+ years of continutiy no one ever mentioned an attack on earth that killed millions
hmmm…I agree with all the statements except perhaps this one. And, really, the only reason I disagree with it is that this isn’t the first time Trek has done something like this.
I’m thinking about the Federation/Cardassian war. It evidently ended shortly before the beginning of TNG, and yet we don’t hear a single thing about it until, what, season three? And yet somehow it still worked, and created one of the more compelling antagonist races in all of ST lore (in my opinion – I know some will find this offensive, but I find the Cardassians far more interesting than the overrated Klingons).
Still, I will not mourn the passing of Enterprise. Sure, the first season had some good stuff, and the initial concept was great, but it just fizzled for me (everything after and including the Ferengi episode has just fallen flat for me).
Personally, I’m hoping for a Bobby Ewing/shower type ending for the series at this point. Or the Enterprise being lost battling the Kzinti (TAS reference, for those not in the know). Or both 🙂
Richard: I was wondering as New Frontier is so popular, is there any chance it becoming the next Star Trek TV show?
Luigi Novi: As Peter has stated to me and others in person and on this blog, New Frontier will NEVER be a TV show for two reasons:
1. Because Peter created most of the characters, he’d have to be paid a royalty for each one used, and for each episode, and as he commented the last time I saw him at Midtown Comics in Times Square, NY, the royalties from just one episode would be enough to put all three of his daughters (Caroline had not been born yet) through college. It has been opined that this is why the character Robert Duncan McNeil played on Voyager was a completely new character, and not Nick Locarno, the character with the similar background that he played in New Ground(TNG), and why Jolene Blalock’s character on Enterprise was not T’Pau from Amok Time(TOS) as early pre-show publicity suggested. The writers of those original episodes would have to be paid royalties for every episode Nick Locarno and T’Pau appeared in.
2. Whoever is in charge of Trek wants to be able to take credit for the series that they create, not something that someone else created. Personally, I find this reason the more perplexing one, since even people who adapt material well get credit for it, as when Steven Spielberg directs a movie based on a book by Michael Crichton, Alice Walker or Philip K. Ðìçk, or the whoever wins the Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar (as opposed to the Best Original Screenplay Oscar), but Peter has, IIRC given this as a reason why NF won’t be on the small screen.
M. Keller: The main complaint I had with it, aside from crappy writing of course, is that the promise of NOT rewriting history was blown early on in the first season. There were established TREK universe timelines that were just plain ignored and while I would normally not mind all that much, we’re talking about THIRTY years of history here.
Darryl: You have any examples of this? I thought that Enterprise did a good job of sticking to canon so far and I can’t think of any blatant examples of ignored continuity off the top of my head.
Luigi Novi: You’re joking, right? Hmm….let’s see…
Remember Me(TNG) and Trials and Tribble-ations(DS9) both established that Kirk’s Enterprise was the first, and without qualifier (i.e.: “Federation” starship…). Enterprise says otherwise.
A Matter of Time(TNG) established that there were no phasers in the 22nd century, yet Archer’s crew has “phase pistols”, which certainly sound like a 22nd century version of phasers. And why did Captain Pike use lasers in The Cage(TOS)?
The First Contact with the Klingons depicted in Broken Bow(ENT), the pilot, totally contradicts what was established in by Picard in First Contact(TNG) and McCoy in Day of the Dove(TOS). Picard, said that the encounter led to decades of war, which it apparently did not, and don’t tell me that they might go to war with the Klingons, because aside from the fact that Bones said they were only blood enemies for 50 years at the time of Day of the Dove (well over a hundred years after Broken Bow), that would not mean that First Contact with them led to it, unless you use an obtusely broad meaning of the word “led.” Picard also spoke of this incident as leading to the need for surveillance of societies on the verge of achieving warp prior to First Contact, a situation entirely different from the one depicted in Broken Bow.
In the second episode, Unexpected(ENT), the crew encountered a ship with cloaking technology, even though in Balance of Terror(TOS), cloaking technology was new, and Spock even said that invisibility wass theoretically possible.
Terra Nova(ENT) attempted to establish that the Terra Nova colony was Earth’s first outside its solar system, even though Metamorphosis(TOS) established that Zephram Cochrane moved to the Alpha Centauri colony not long after 2119.
Numerous members of Archer’s crew, including Archer himself, Trip, Reed, and Phlox, has have had numerous conversations in which they learned of Vulcan pon far in episodes like Fusion(ENT), Fallen Hero(ENT), Two Days and Two Nights(ENT), and Bounty(ENT), yet no one, including, Bones, had any knowledge of it in Amok Time(TOS).
A Piece of the Action(TOS) made it clear that subspace radio had not been invented until after 2168, but Silent Enemy(ENT) shows Archer’s crew deploying and beginning to use subspace radio relays, even though that episode is set in 2151.
Archer’s encounter with four Ferengi in Acquistion(ENT), directly contradicts The Last Outpost(TNG), which made it clear that Picard’s encounter with them in that latter ep was the Federation’s first with them. Rationalizers have tried to argue that the Ferengi never told Archer what the name of their race was, but that’s just plain stupid. As soon as Archer retook the shop from them and overpowered them, he should not only have interrogated them and had Hoshi examine the entire database from their ship, which would’ve gleaned this info, but he should’ve made a visual record of them for future reference.
The term “First Contact” seemed to refer to the first formal encounter between two alien people, which is supported by the fact that humans’ first contact with aliens is considered to be the open, formal one in ST First Contact with the Vulcans, and not the numerous mostly unknown or clandestine visitations by aliens to Earth established in Time’s Arrow part I and II(TNG), Tattoo(VOY), Death Wish(VOY), etc. But Carbon Creek(ENT), which depicted Vulcans visiting Earth in 1957, attempted to refer to this clandestine visitation as “First Contact.”
The assertion in Stigma(ENT) that there was a strong stigma in Vulcan society attached to the mind meld is totally at odds with premises regarding the mind meld established in a multitude of episodes and movies like ST II, ST III, Gambit partII(TNG).
Archer’s crew encounters non-corporeal, energy-based lifeforms in The Crossing(ENT), even though Spock spoke of non-corporeal life as a possibility in Wolf in the Fold(TOS).
The Breach(ENT) indicated that Denobulans, who, along with humans and Vulcans, are part of the Medical Exchange program, are familiar with Tribbles, even though Bones never had heard of them in The Trouble with Tribbles(TOS).
Up until Regeneration(ENT), I was content to accept the possibility that reports of the El Aurians rescued in ST Generations were filed away someplace, since they didn’t have visual records, proof, or possibly even detailed explanations of the people who they fled from. But in Regeneration, we have LOADS OF PHOTOGRAPHS of Borg drones, which Data should’ve produced in when they “first” encountered them in Q Who(TNG). And Phlox’s discovery that omicron particles are harmful to the nanoprobes was ever mentioned in any of the NextGen or Voyager episodes featuring the Borg.
Intraship beaming was said to be extremely hazardous in Day of the Dove(TOS), but Archer does so in Chosen Realm(ENT) without any mention of difficulty or danger.
Should I go on?
Enterprise’s writing has improved this season, and the Xindi arc has provided some nice ongoing storylines, but its attention to continuity is not that great, particularly since the very premise of the show contradicts established Trek history, and I don’t buy most of the tortured logic gymnastics used to rationalize these things. This wouldn’t even be so bad if the writing were as good as on DS9 or NextGen. I would KILL to have Ronald D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr, Rene Ecchevaria, and Robert Hewitt Wolfe, and a bunch of other guys with middle initials to take over the franchise.
Jeff: Oh, and wasn’t Spock the first Vulcan to serve aboard a starfleet vessel? (And yes, I know the argument about him being the first ‘Starfleet’ officer, but T-Pol is second in command, which makes her a de-facto one as well.
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall any episode that established that he was the first Vulcan to serve on a Starfleet ship. Which one was this?
I dunno. I guess I am in a very small minority that actually really enjoys watching Enterprise. Up until this whole “Xindi” storyline began, I thought the series was one of the freshest and original in the Star Trek pantheon. My only criticism is that the blatant sexuality in the show seems either forced or out of place. Trek has always had a level of sexuality, but it always seemed to fit well until this series. Setting that aside, I enjoy watching this show every Wednesday night and hope it will continue through its planned, seven year run.
But what do I know. I also enjoyed Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.
Here’s my take on the Trek continuity issue..
The Borg for example. Everything you saw in the Next Generation happened exactly the way you saw it…UNTIL the First Contact film when the Borg went back into time, and thus the continuity was altered. So you should just view the Next Gen episodes as a window to the pre-altered continuity.
The same thing with the ‘Future’s End’ storyline in Voyager which ended up accelerating Earth’s technology at a faster rate. Thus that explains why a lot of the tech on Enterprise seems more advanced than the tech on the Original Trek series.
And finally Capt. Archer’s continual interference in the Sulibans affairs in their Temporal Cold-War, has pìššëd-off the Sulibans, so they sic the Xindi on them by telling them that the humans would destroy them in the future. Thus again the timeline was altered. So we should view the Original Trek series as a window to before the timeline was altered. There cannot be any mention of the Earth attack if the timeline hasn’t been altered yet.
And if Enterprise is cancelled, I’ll be bitterly disappointed. The current season finally seems to be going somewhere, and I’d hate to see it go now.
Darren J. Hudak: Kirk’s Enterprise no longer being the first ship to travel in time, (and by extension Kirk no longer being the first Captain to travel in time),
Darryl: Source please? I can’t recall where this was ever stated.
Darren J. Hudak: Spock mentions that they are the first to travel though time, (in fact, if memory serves, he specifically mentions that they proved time travel is possible), the first time in the old series that they traveled back in time.
Luigi Novi: Well, duh, of course it was. Obviously, Darryl was asking which episode this occurred in, Darren.
The first episode in which Kirk’s Enterprise traveled back in time was The Naked Time(TOS), and Spock’s dialogue did seem to indicate that this was the first time that time-travel had been successful, but keep in mind that this was the crew doing this on their own with the Enterprise. Archer hasn’t traveled back in time with his ship, but has done so only with Daniels.
Feh! I find it hard to believe that ‘Enterprise’ isn’t getting the same amount of ‘do-overs’ that ‘V’ger’ did. That show was dead in the water since season three!
Anyways, I won’t be sorry to see ‘Enterprise’ go.
Perhaps they can concoct some kind of series with a TNG-DS9-Farscape vibe…maybe I’m asking too much.
Making it even lamer than Bobby Ewing’s shower, and nowhere near as much fun as “Emily, you should wear more sweaters
I think the Bobby Ewing shower episode was the LAST episode of Dallas that the wife or I viewed. I felt so cheated, I swore off of it.
What is the Emily reference? Bob Newhart show maybe?
Also, what is a retconned?
Thank you.
Lets just wait a few years. Im sure Joss will have Ripper on TV and an Angel/Buffy movie out, where they fight a mega demon, get transported back through time to the point where the first human and vampire mingle. Buffy can end the Vampire theat before it begins, but in doing so, looses Angel.
Star Trek might fail as Starfleet Academy, just because more girls watch these Dawson Creek shows than guys and Star Trek is still a mostly guy show.
I would like to see a Small Starship that travels to world and puts our diplomatic fires. There would be a tiny crew of 7-8 people, a captain, diplomat, security or two, an aide and so on. Several episodes could be in an arc (3 episodes on andor dealing with a civil war) (5 shows on Telar dealing with a terrorist threat.
Lets give trek and Joss a break for a few years.
Actually, I believe the TOS claim was that Spock was the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy, not the first Vulcan in Starfleet.
Ok, I found a reference, according to “The Star Trek Encyclopedia: A reference Guide to the Future”(Copyright 1994, First Printing April 1994)
Pg 309 “Spock was the first Vulcan to enlist in the Federation Starfleet, and distinguished himself greatly as the science officer aboard the original USS Enterprise.”
Dunno how official of a source the book is, but it confirmed my memory of Spock’s history.
Peter needs to license the characters out at a discount rate so a TV show (or at least a few movies) can be made.
Hey, I’m not much of a Star Trek fan, but I had a gay friend in college who was a huge fan, and he always wondered where all the homosexuals were in the future. He wondered if they discover homosexuality was a gene thing and wipe it out, or are they all on one ship touring the universe somewhere. THAT would be a different Star Trek series.
Gary B, the last scene in the final episode of “Newhart” revealed that the entire series had been Dr. Bob Hartley’s (of “The Bob Newhart Show”) dream.
I think TV Guide once listed it as the greatest series-ending scene ever.
The beauty of it was, the studio audience realized what was happening as soon as Bob turned on the light by the bed (I imagine they recognized the set), and gave out a huge roar when Suzanne Pleshette appeared from beneath the covers. I always wondered how Mary Frann felt about that…
“Posted by Alex Clarke @ 02/16/2004 09:20 PM ET
Here’s my take on the Trek continuity issue…”
Excuse me while I say…”What???”
*shakes head and just sighs*
Concerning the answers provided by the following writer ( Luigi Novi @ 02/16/2004 09:13 PM ET ), I just HAVE to say…YOU ARE DA MAN!
Add me to the list of the bitterly disappointed fans of Angel. I will be sending out a postcard, if only to console and thank the cast and crew of a fine show.
PAD, any chance of you writing an Angel novelization in the future? That would at least leave something for us forlorn fans to look forward to.
Some thoughts:
On Luigi Novi’s comments concerning royalties for character use:
I find it surprising that a writer would retain rights to characters created for a licensed property. I would think that such would be considered “work-for-hire”. Or maybe I’m just thinking of comics. Does Timothy Zahn rake in the royalties for all the appearances of the Solo twins in the New Jedi Order? (Or did the twins first appear before the Thrawn trilogy?)
On gary b’s questions:
I believe the “Emily reference” is from the finale of Bob Newhart’s second titular show, “Newhart”, where the entire “Newhart” series was just a dream that Bob’s character from the original “Bob Newhart Show” had. He wakes up next to his wife from the original show, and his last comment to her is that she should “wear more sweaters” (since his wife from “Newhart” regularly wore sweaters).
And, “retcon” is an abbreviated form of the phrase “retroactive continuity”, meaning that a later story in a series alters the previously established history–thus, it “retroactively” changes the “continuity”.
While we’re knocking around ideas for new Star Trek shows, how about a JAG-type thing in Starfleet? You’d probably have to base it out of a small starship, and they could zip around putting out Starfleet fires (the types created by Mackenzie Calhoun, no doubt…)
I’m pretty glad Enterprise is gone. Thought it was a blight on Star Trek, personally. Angel, on the other hand will be sorely missed.
About the homosexual characters: the books of Star Trek have always proved the homosexuality exists, but the writers of the TV shows/movies have always tiptoed around putting any in, out of fear of offending their audience no doubt. Always thought that was kind of silly mysel, and contrary to Star Trek ideal of breaking stereotypes (female captains, black captains etc.)
I thought ENTERPRISE gave up on its initial premise too quickly — they had the whole friggin’ universe! — to turn the show into 24 in space. Forget exploration and discovery; the sole mission is to stop the terrorists, I mean aliens, from committing another unprovoked attack on America, I mean Earth (even if they did attack Florida).
The funny thing is, ENTERPRISE had some very good episodes. “Proving Ground” was extremely good, with the great Jeffrey Combs and the passionate Andorians being a nice contrast to the logical Vulcans; and I liked the “Strategy” ep as well.
While I’m sad to see the shows go, I’m glad they *know* they’re going. That gives them a chance to wrap up the storylines, instead of ending smack in the middle of a cliffhanger. (JOHN DOE, anyone?) I suspect ENTERPRISE will somehow reset history, so the attack never happened.
Won’t miss Enterprise one bit (and this from someone who made audio tapes – there were no home video set-ups at the time — of the original series during its initial run).
Never really much cared for Enterprise: the Vulcans being rude rather than stoic, Archer making Sisko’s character actually seem animated, the same tired character-driven stories and Gordian time travel paradoxes that Berman, Braga and Bormanis have a jones for, the gratuitous insertion of T&A, the visual dullness of the sets, and the internal inconsistencies (way too many to list here) just didn’t float my boat.
Pretty much gave up any hope of finding even a modicum of enjoyment once the interminable, 9/11-inspired Xindi mess got rolling.
Beating the audience mercilessly over the head with a ‘message’ just results in nasty headaches. Some episodes made this viewer feel he should be wearing a goalie’s mask to avoid the blows.