Since the Farpoint thread is quickly being hijacked by discussion the announced or pending cancellation of “Angel” and “Enterprise,” please continue all discussion about that topic over here. Thanx.
PAD
Since the Farpoint thread is quickly being hijacked by discussion the announced or pending cancellation of “Angel” and “Enterprise,” please continue all discussion about that topic over here. Thanx.
PAD
• 
I’m happy to see “Angel” go. There can never be a “good vampire” story, any more than there can be a “good rapist story” or a “good Nazi-affirming Holocaust story.” ‘Nuff said there.
I disagree and not just because Angel is about a formerly bad person looking for redemption. “A Boy and His Dog” and “A Clockwork Orange” are two excellent stories in which the protagonist is a rapist and murderer, a totally reprehensible person without redemption. But they are both excellent stories.
Do the authors of these stories want you to emulate these characters? I would hope not, but just because the main character is not an admirable person, doesn’t mean that compelling stories cannot be told about them. In fact, neither story would have worked in the main character had been a soup kitchen volunteer.
A lot of people are saying what kind of new Trek show they’d like to see next.
Now, I think the Trek well is dry and has been since before Voyager debuted, but if someone were to ask me what kind of show they should do next, I’d say leave Starfleet behind. Five shows that basically revolve around a the same formula of a Starfleet captain and his senior crewmembers is enough. Let’s explore what life in the Federation is like for those who don’t work for the government. Maybe a show about a group of colonists working to terraform a planet on the fringes. Keep Starfleet in background. In fact, maybe even have the colonists regard a visiting starship captain nosing around as an unwanted intrustion.
Re: Angel–maybe the movie format would be the best thing for the franchise. Think of what Whedon would do with a truly beefy fx budget. Plus, it might attract SMG to return if the next Buffy appearance she made were on the big screen. Let WB wallow in its reality-TV lowest common denominator mud pit.
Re: Enterprise. Good riddance. The only way the franchise can/should be revived is to return its storylines to the formula that worked best in Classic Trek–there’s right and wrong and the guys and gals in the right kick the tails of those in the wrong. Moral ambiguity and New Age sensitivities have marooned Star Trek too long.
Assuming people are still reading this far down, here are my thoughts on Angel and Enterprise. I watch the former, but not the latter. Angel, is in fact, one of only three first-run shows I watch right now. I continue to enjoy it, and don’t feel it has jumped the shark. In fact, I’m interested to see where this whole Wolfram & Hart deal will ultimately take Angel’s team, since you know the senior partners don’t have their best interests at heart. I wouldn’t mind seeing the series go another season or two.
That being said, if it ends this year, I will be disappointed, but won’t dwell on it too much. I’m actually cutting back on the amount of first-run TV I watch (though I continue to watch shows on DVD occasionally, including Angel). There are other things in my life that need my attention more than TV shows, even quality TV shows.
As to Enterprise, I watched it the first year, and thought it had the potential to recapture my interest after the disappointing Voyager, which I gave up on as a regular viewer by the middle of the first season . It looked like they were getting back to the core of Trek, which was stories about the characters and their relationships to each other, but somehow they got off track and my interest faded. I’ve only seen two episodes since then. Considering how much I’ve enjoyed Star Trek over the years, that’s unfortunate.
Perhaps the Trek franchise is in need of a rest. After all, there has been a Trek series of one kind or another on the air continuously since September, 1987. That’s 17 years folks. 17 years of continuous Trek. I remember when the only new Trek came in the form of novels and a movie every three years.
If you had told me in 1982, as I wondered what would happen next in the Trek universe now that Spock was dead, and hungered for new stories, that the first of four new series would premiere in just five years; and that Trek would continue on TV for nearly two decades after that fact, I’d be both surprised, and excited at the possibility. Yet, today, I don’t watch the current series at all; still haven’t seen the latest movie (I always used to see them on opening day); and except for the original series am not buying the shows on DVD (though price is a factor in that decision, to some degree).
Occasionally, I sit down and re-read the “Best of Trek” books from the 1980s, which contained collections of articles from Trek magazine– articles about where Trek was going; whether there’d ever be a new series; whether Kirk should be re-cast or there should be a Sulu/Chekhov series (no one seemed to consider an entirely new crew); etc. When I do this, I recall, the level of interest and excitement I felt about what lay ahead for Trek, a feeling I no longer have about the franchise.
That feeling of excitement about a TV series was re-awakened with Babylon 5. In fact I got cable for a year just to see the final season of that show and finish the “novel.” By 1998, when season 5 of B5 aired, I wouldn’t have bothered for any other show, including Trek.
Maybe Enterprise is telling the history of the Mirror Universe, as some have suggested, or maybe Archer and Company will have to make the ultimate sacrifice to put the “correct” history back in place, as others have suggested; but I think if either of those possibilities are correct, it should’ve been made clear much earlier. They might’ve kept my interest.
So, to summarize: Angel continues to be good; still has stories to tell. Trek should rest and recharge its batteries. Come back fresh in a few years.
Rick
e: Enterprise. Good riddance. The only way the franchise can/should be revived is to return its storylines to the formula that worked best in Classic Trek–there’s right and wrong and the guys and gals in the right kick the tails of those in the wrong. Moral ambiguity and New Age sensitivities have marooned Star Trek too long.
I would argue the diametric opposite. The current regime talk about moral ambiguity, BUT DON’T REALLY BELIEVE IT…a good guy/bad guy morality underlies everything…the Federation has to be the good guys and they’re not allowed to make mistakes.
I would allow them to make mistakes; stronger stories come from that–you cannot have a compelling story when you know the heroes won’t make mistakes (and yes, Kirk made a lot of them…AN ERRAND OF MERCY would never be told in the current regime). Black and white morality are fine for kids…but we’re not kids any more.
Hi. Long time Trekkie (I started watching when NBC started showing it.), first time poster here.
I enjoy Enterprise.
I am well aware of the many complaints about Enterprise’s “pre-retconned” glitches with future continuity.
I’ve always assumed that the series would have to end with a Dallas/Newhart negation, to explain why all future Trek mythos has no memory or mention of the Archer Enterprise, thier various first contacts, the Denobulans, etc. Starting with the Xindi/Expanse season, I adopted the theory that the entire series was occuring in a parallel dimension or parallel universe.
Props to the person here who theorized that Enterprise begins in the standard Trek universe but the conclusion of the Temporal Cold War will eliminate all memory of them and initiate the creation of the Mirror Universe of TOS and DS9 fame. That concept may need some tweaking, but it has potential.
To the many people who’d like to see something based on Trek lore but totally different and yet the same, and particularly the person who suggested a story in which the end of the Temporal Cold Conflict causes the Archer Enterprise to shift 300 years into it’s own future (I assume that person was joking): It’s (koffGeneRoddenberry’sAndromedakoff) been done.
“Actually, even moreso than the RetConning, I found it difficult to accept the new look, considering the advances in every factor of filmmaking since the original series guaranteed that the stories taking place one hundred years before would look more futuristic than the stories that took place afterwards. Then again, I have this same problem with STAR WARS Episodes 1 and 2.”-Malvito.
As far as Star Wars is concerned, I think the idea of the earlier stuff (EpI) looking newer and more futuristic than the later stuff (the original trilogy) was that the empire was a tyranical dictatorship, and no one could really get anything new, they just had to rebuild and piece together the older stuff. That was my understanding, anyway.
monkeys.
Without reading any of the posts above, it was my impression that the fate of Angel this year was going to be dependent on an appearance by Sarah Michele Gellar, and how that guest appearance went ratings-wise? I heard that they would indeed cancel if she didn’t make the appearance?
Anyone hear about this?
As for Enterprise, the writing has been ok at times, horrible more often than not. I like how Archer was willing to show some ruthlessness early on by threatening a Zindi(sp?) to throw him out an airlock. But then they spend too much time on off-topic stories. Some say the best part of Deep Space Nine, was the last half of the final season when the episodes were all continuous, rather than stand alone stories. This kind of storyline progression is what’s needed. It keeps people in the story. Fillers just don’t cut it except in between major elements of the overall story.
But I wanted to state that I read on the Sci-fi channel website that they had fired the writers of Enterprise. This has piqued my interest even more than it originally had after last night’s episode which was a clone of the same concept in Voyager where 7of9 went crazy while being alone as the crew was placed in cryogen sleep while passing through hazardous space. The Doctor was there too, just as T’Pol was. The doctor broke down, just as T’Pol lost emotional control. Too many similarities not to be either a coincidence or a sign of poor and lazy writing. Next week’s episode was previewed as having to deal with a mutiny on the ship. This was also done on Voyager. See a pattern?
You know the show’s in trouble when the same writer’s rehash old scripts that were bad to begin with.
This series has so much potential. When it started I was worried after seeing that the people making it were the same people who wrote and produced Voyager, and I thought the best episodes of Voyager were the final and the Dinosaur episode.
MYOB’
.
we’ll be lucky if NASA exists after 2004, much less if Trek ever really happens
err…let me go off on a limb here, but I don’t think we’ll be ‘lucky’ if Trek happens…that is, if it happens in the way Trek says it happens.
The ‘utopia’ of the 24th century is certainly a nice destination, but the path Star Trek writers suggested the earth followed to get there was kind of rocky.
I’d like to find a different path to the same destination.
Mr. Reed, you’ve said the thing that has probably sparked the most response, and even though it’s been done to death, I feel compelled to respond.
I’m happy to see “Angel” go. There can never be a “good vampire” story, any more than there can be a “good rapist story” or a “good Nazi-affirming Holocaust story.” ‘Nuff said there.
I also disagree with this. The difference between a rapist or Nazi and a vampire is that to be a rapist or Nazi, one must make an ethical decision. To rape another person is to force one’s will on another person. To become a Nazi is to choose a political philosophy that assumes one group of people is inherently superior to another due to the uncontrollable circumstance of their birth, which many would argue is evil — I wouldn’t say evil, but it’s certainly misguided and it can easily motivate evil actions.
A vampire is a person that another vampire chose to make a vampire. They’re people randomly granted power. There’s no reason you can’t tell a story that casts them in a favorable light. Even in the Buffy-verse, where vamps are soulless humans possessed by demons who lack compunction, Angel and Spike defy that definition because they are different creatures — vampires reinhabited by their former mortal souls. Further, since vamps are part demon and we’ve seen full-blooded demons who aren’t evil, and even some who are good.
Vampires aren’t inherently evil creatures, though, mainly because there are hundreds of vampiric legends to draw from, and they aren’t merciless monsters in each one. You can draw from Stoker, or Ann Rice, or Mexican lore, Chinese legend, Teutonic myth, or Vampire: The Masquerade, and from each you will find differences. A vampire could be a human struggling with monstrous impulses; an intelligent creature bent on destruction; the heir to genetically transferred power; a monster and nothing more; any of these and more are available options.
If you still see them after reading this thread, you should try watching My Best Friend is a Vampire. It’s a vampire movie in which vampires just want to be left alone. They buy pigs’ blood from butcher shops and wear lots of sunblock. It’s an ’80s teen comedy, but it’s not a bad movie, and it’s got David Warner in it, as well as Rene Aber… Aberjoi… um, Odo from DS9.
Okay, this may or may not be the right place to post this idea, but it is not exactly without precedent. I’m gonna mention what I think would make a cool new Trek series. Feel free to scroll past this post…
Okay, back in the heady days of DS9, I was kicking around the idea of submitting a script for that series. Looking back, I realize that it committed several serious sins of writing for an ongoing series, mainly that it focused on brand new characters (read J.M.Straczynski’s book on scriptwriting to see why this is a bad idea if you actually want to sell a script). It dealt with a new (or previously unrevealed) corps of Starfleet, one dedicated to reclaiming alien technology.
Basically, it dealt with a group of new recruits who were to meet this ‘special ops’ starship on DS9 to head out on their first mission, to uncover the homeworld of the Husnocks, the race wiped out by ‘Kevin’, a member of the race the Dowd, in the TNG episode ‘The Survivors’ (http://stng.36el.com/st-tng/episodes/151.html if you want to see an episode synopsis).
Okay, it might not seem that interesting when laid out like that, but the principal concept was going to be how a brand-new female android, created by Bruce Maddox, would come to deal with her existance and some sort of meaning to her ‘life’. I had planned to have her interacting with Bajoran faith giving her some sort of framework that her life might take.
Basically, she would not endeavour to be more ‘human’, as Data does, but to really discover what being synthetic is, and how it relates to faith (where others are only supposing to have a creator, she knows for a fact that she does! as an example).
Kinda lame, now that I look at it. Ah, well, it is good to get that story/series idea off my chest after all these years. If someone can take that idea, run with it and make it into a series or book or something that makes them lots of money, go and have a ball. With my blessing 🙂
Anyway, what was the topic under discussion? Oh, yeah. Enterprise is better off gone (although, for all the Berman-bashing going on here, he did write my favourite TNG episode ‘Brothers). I would miss Angel, except I never really catch it on a regular basis since season two anyway.
**Besides, Bush can talk about it all he wants, but he’ll just talk. He’ll never actually fund the program, any more than he funded the rebuilding of Afghanistan as he promised, or delivered more than a sliver of the funding he promised toward helping New York City after 9/11. Fuding things takes money, and you don’t have money if you cut taxes and go to war.
Oh, wait. That’s right, he has money if he cuts taxes and goes to war.**
Oh give me a break. He promised an extra Billion spread out over FIVE years. That’s 200 million dollars a year. To the gov’t that’s the same as you finding 35 cents in the couch cushions.. Heck the Dept. of Education misspent HALF of that amount in one year and no one even cared except Bill O’Reilly, and when he tried to make a stink every body came down on him.
**err…let me go off on a limb here, but I don’t think we’ll be ‘lucky’ if Trek happens…that is, if it happens in the way Trek says it happens.
The ‘utopia’ of the 24th century is certainly a nice destination, but the path Star Trek writers suggested the earth followed to get there was kind of rocky.
I’d like to find a different path to the same destination. **
Well, to be honest, while Trek SOUNDS nice it goes against two hard core realities 1) physics, and 2) human nature.
Besides, I’m not sure I want to live in Politically Correct hëll.
To Tim Byrd:
Who’d that press release come from, the production company? Here’s the actual WB show rankings and ratings (all viewers) from last week:
1. 7th Heaven – 4.1/6
2. Everwood – 3.9/6
3. Smallville – 3.1/5
4. Gilmore Girls – 3.3/5
5. Reba – 2.9/5
6. The Surreal Life – 2.8/4
7. Charmed – 2.8/4
8. One Tree Hill – 2.6/4
9. Angel – 2.4/4
In adults 18-34 it’s a little different – again, last week, same shows:
1. Smallville – 2.7/8
2. Gilmore Girls – 2.3/7
3. Everwood – 2.2/6
4. Charmed – 2.2/6
5. 7th Heaven – 2.1/6
6. One Tree Hill – 2.0/6
7. Angel – 1.9/5
8. The Surreal Life – 1.9/5
9. Reba – 1.7/7
I’ve got nothing against Angel… I kinda like it (last night’s episode was great) – it’s just that the numbers tell a different story than what the publicists would have you believe…
Fenn
I wonder if Angel is off-beat enough for someone like HBO to be interested in. Can you imagine what they could do with it there (naked werewolf girl notwithstanding)?
To Tim Byrd: Who’d that press release come from, the production company?
Try the WB itself:
http://www.thewb.com/PressRelease/Index/0,8341,150762,00.html
But, as I said, it was dated 1/21, and these things aren’t static.
Either way, it’s a top 10 show.
Um, “Top 10 show” doesn’t necessarily mean much on the WB. Remember, they only program 2 hours a night (plus reruns on Sundays) and not every night. Per their website, they currently only have 16 shows.
How would I do Trek? First, I’m afraid I agree the existing showrunners have been around too long and haven’t had a success in too long, either tv or movie. So, let’s give it a one year rest and then shake it up.
4 (or maybe 8) separate 6 show mini-series, all set in the ST universe, all in same timeslot, possibly with different show runners. In other words, first 6 weeks of the season “Captain Sulu” by Peter David. Second 6 weeks of the season “Starfleet Anthropologists” by JMS. Third 6 weeks “Starfleet Academy” by Joss Whedon. Fourth 6 weeks “The .8 G Wing” by Aaron Sorkin. Mix and match existing characters from different shows, bring in new characters as well, etc.
I hope that no one minds the bit of off-topic comment here. I haven’t been visiting here for a very long time, but I don’t think that I’ve ever seen this much time go my without Peter making some kind of comment. It is unusual for him to go silent for days?
Mr. David, if you read this, I hope that you’ve just got better things to do than hang out with us internet geeks and nothing horrid has happenned.
David, if I had to guess, I’d say it’s because Peter doesn’t want to comment on Trek because, as he’s stated in the past, many times that he’s done so, his comments have gotten twisted and misinterpreted, and spread around the net, which could potentially make his relationship with Pocket Books (which is owned by Paramount, and publishes the Trek novels) difficult.
The most unfortunate example I am aware of is when Gene Roddenberry’s aide de camp, Richard Arnold, who took a dislike to Peter, told Gene that Peter, in his 10/12/90 But I Digress column, publicly attacked Trek and claimed that he wrote better Trek than Gene, which of course, wasn’t true. Without Gene having read the article, Richard Arnold turned Gene against Peter, a situation Peter was unable to clear up withe Gene before he died.
As for why Peter has been also silent on the Angel portion of the thread, I don’t know, but maybe it’s along similar lines.
I’ve read too many interviews with Berman and past articles that he is quoated as saying “he hated GR’s verson of Trek.” Why do you think he went out of his way to make ENTERPRISE set in a past time period instead of a future one? HE HATES IT! Berman has killed the entire Trek franchise that we all knew and loved for decades with this one rehashed show. Berman just wants the paycheck, he could careless about Trek as a whole. Go ask anyone Berman worked with on TNG. Go read his interviews. The vibe I get from the man is he looths it period. He didnt want to attach Star Trek to Enterprise title now, why was that eh? He killed TNG’s movie run. Face it, the man has no passion for it so therefore, Paramount should have canned his ášš a long time ago. and PAD is probably not going to comment on ENTERPRISE cause it’s too close to home, knpw what I mean?? TNG should have went out with a bang not a whimper.
Dee: I’ve read too many interviews with Berman and past articles that he is quoated as saying “he hated GR’s verson of Trek.”
Luigi Novi: Did he actually say that?
Dee: Berman has killed the entire Trek franchise that we all knew and loved for decades with this one rehashed show.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think he did this with this one show. I think Voyager and 3 of the 4 films in the NextGen movie run contributed to this.
Dee: I’ve read too many interviews with Berman and past articles that he is quoated as saying “he hated GR’s verson of Trek.”
Luigi Novi: Did he actually say that?
If Dee’s citing it, it must be tr–
Tr–
Er, Dee always knows what–
Um. Never mind. I just can’t do it.
I’ve read too many interviews with Berman and past articles that he is quoated as saying “he hated GR’s verson of Trek.”
I’d like to see those articles because I’d have to wonder about that. Berman didn’t just fall from the sky the day after Roddenbury’s death. He worked on TNG prior to being named the “caretaker” of Trek legacy. How could someone so (allegedly) openly hostile toward’s Roddenbury’s work manage to ascend so high in the organization.
Interesting. One person has said that one big problem with “Enterprise” was that they were having too many character-driven stories. Another said that one big problem was that he missed the original’s character-driven stories. Guess you just can’t please some folks…
Personally, I thought “Enterprise” was running out of steam during the second season, and that the Xindi arc was just what they needed to kick the show right in the impulse engine. I do anticipate that the arc will end with a story which will clip the entire season, and possibly the NX project’s entire existence, into a closed temporal loop.
If we want a new Trek series that looks like somebody’s existing stories, how about an “X-Files” inspired one, involving a brave Federation investigator (and probably his sidekick, a former member of the Obsidian Order) uncovering and trying to destroy Section 31?
(Yes, I’m kidding – sort of…)
Just for the sake of a random thought, I’d love to see a one hour television special about Star Trek. The special would use various castmembers of the various shows and simply put them in humorous scenes that we fans would love to see and get a kick out of watching.
Whenever the idea of the special, which I realize is five shades of not-gonna-happen, runs through my mind, I am reminded of Shatner’s retort in Free Enterprise to Han Solo being referred to as cooler than Captain Kirk.
Dee: I’ve read too many interviews with Berman and past articles that he is quoated as saying “he hated GR’s verson of Trek.”
And these articles are where?
Sorry, but I’m from Missouri … you have to show me.
I hope Enterprise doesn’t get cancelled, but it doesn’t look good.
There are PLENTY of things that could have been done by the creators to improve the series. Hiring REAL WRITERS would have been a good start. There are MANY writers who have tried to get scripts out to those guys (including a neighbour of mine) and they all come back unopened. There are so many possibilities that exist in the Star Trek universe, it is a crime to not explore more of them.
To the current creators credit, the series has improved, but it could be better.
Good point, Drifter. TOS had a good deal of success with stories written by actual SF writers (“The Trouble With Tribbles”, “Amok Time”, two different versions of “City on the Edge of Forever”…). Maybe “Enterprise” should solicit some SF writers to script for them.
Hey, I’ve heard of this guy called Peter David, who writes a pretty good stick… 🙂
Den wrote: Now, I think the Trek well is dry and has been since before Voyager debuted, but if someone were to ask me what kind of show they should do next, I’d say leave Starfleet behind. Five shows that basically revolve around a the same formula of a Starfleet captain and his senior crewmembers is enough. Let’s explore what life in the Federation is like for those who don’t work for the government. Maybe a show about a group of colonists working to terraform a planet on the fringes. Keep Starfleet in background. In fact, maybe even have the colonists regard a visiting starship captain nosing around as an unwanted intrustion.
What if we made it about a small independent vessel with a crew that’s just barely managing to keep themselves afloat financially, travelling between some of the colony worlds?
That was pretty much the premise of Joss Whedon’s brilliant (and much missed) Firefly, wasn’t it? The Alliance pretty much represented the Federation, I thought.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think he did this with this one show. I think Voyager and 3 of the 4 films in the NextGen movie run contributed to this.
I’d say it was only two of the four films. And Nemesis wasn’t nearly as infuriating as First Contact. Generations and Insurrection weren’t exactly great, but few of the original series movies were, either.
**What if we made it about a small independent vessel with a crew that’s just barely managing to keep themselves afloat financially, travelling between some of the colony worlds?
That was pretty much the premise of Joss Whedon’s brilliant (and much missed) Firefly, wasn’t it? The Alliance pretty much represented the Federation, I thought.**
True, but the Alliance was extremely sinister and I don’t think the average Trek-zombie can handle a show where the Federation isn’t the happy benevelent utopia.
This is also a big reason why the well is dry.
All you have to do is look up Rick Berman interviews on google’s search. I’m sure they’ll popup. I’m not gonna sit here and take up PAD’s blog with Berman interviews. so, you’re on your own with that one. 🙂
The well went dry because Berman IS NOT science fiction. He never was and never will be. He’s a soap opera writer, just look at the lame storylines he picks for production and you’ll see a pattern. He fired his good sci-fi writers and replaced em with people who didn’t know how to write Trek. That’s why Nemesis flopped so bad. Try hiring a real science fiction writer next time Berman instead of taking the cheap way out by hiring some one who didnt know Trek’s Universe at all.
Dee said
Try hiring a real science fiction writer next time Berman instead of taking the cheap way out by hiring some one who didnt know Trek’s Universe at all.
Dee, you have a point, BUT it must be understood that it is just as expensive to write a solid story as it is to write junk. There are hundreds of good writers out there. My neighbour tried desperately to get a meeting with ANYBODY from the Enterprise crew. The man has a Ph. D in English, so he at least has credentials. All his stuff came back unopened. I personally thought it might be fun to focus on the time just after First Contact and explore more Earth “History”. No luck on getting a meeting on that, despite having a script and myself a Ph.D in Philosophy. They don’t answer the phone at UPN.
I have seen so many good scripts and ideas from so many writers here in my area, the crew could go on 10 5 year missions and still have leftover scripts. The well has certainly NOT run dry. Let us NOT give Berman and company a free pass on this one. They are a lazy, unimaginative lot. The fault is not in the stars, it lies with Berman and Co.
In filmmaking, it takes as much work to make crap as it does to put together something worthwhile. The producers have more than enough money and plenty of talent in front of the screen and behind the camera. They have scripts from writers from all over the world and they send them back unopened, so I suppose they will get what they deserve. Too bad, the show is getting better.
True, but the Alliance was extremely sinister and I don’t think the average Trek-zombie can handle a show where the Federation isn’t the happy benevelent utopia.
But, the Alliance might not have really been “sinister.” It’s just the point of view we were given. There were corrupt officials, sure, and the Serenity crew certainly wanted to avoid the officials, but there was good reason for that, what with them being smugglers and the like.
Blue Sun, they were sinister. And that might be the biggest Trek diffence, I think, other than the complete lack of people in funny prosthetics pretending to be aliens. Firefly‘s Alliance seemed pretty capitalistic. The Federation didn’t seem so — unless I’m mistaken, it was even pointed out a few times that they’d done away with money.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think he did this with this one show. I think Voyager and 3 of the 4 films in the NextGen movie run contributed to this.
Robin Sizemore I’d say it was only two of the four films. And Nemesis wasn’t nearly as infuriating as First Contact. Generations and Insurrection weren’t exactly great, but few of the original series movies were, either.
Luigi Novi: ST First Contact was by far the best out of the four NextGen films, IMO, and is generally considered thus by fandom. ST Nemesis may not have been as bad as Generations and Insurrection, but it was pretty bad. As far as the original series movies, I find 4 of out the 6 to be good: The II-IV trilogy, and VI.
Dee: All you have to do is look up Rick Berman interviews on google’s search. I’m sure they’ll popup.
Luigi Novi: Dee, nowhere in the interviews with Berman referenced by Google or that I’ve read elsewhere say that he hated Trek.
Dee: I’m not gonna sit here and take up PAD’s blog with Berman interviews.
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall anyone here saying you had to post entire interviews, only the quote, and the interview to which it is attributed. Why “take up PAD’s blog” with the posts you’ve made here, but not a mere quote and attribution?
Dee: so, you’re on your own with that one.
Luigi Novi: No, you’re on your own in citing the interview or quote in question. If you’re going to make a serious charge as asserting that Rick Berman has stated that he hates Trek, then the obligation to provide the quote is on you, not us.
Dee: He fired his good sci-fi writers and replaced em with people who didn’t know how to write Trek. That’s why Nemesis flopped so bad.
Luigi Novi: I think that’s a very insular attitude to have. Good writing is good writing. I loved The Last Samurai, which like all good fiction, is about the human condition. If John Logan had approached the script for Nemesis the same way, and focused on the same human condition-themes as he did in The Last Samurai or Gladiator (like perhaps focusing on how Riker and Troi ended up together, instead of just making it a throwaway portion of the story), then ST Nemesis could’ve been good. No franchise is going to survive if it’s run with the elitist attitude that “oh, that person doesn’t know how to write for our franchise.”
Tokyo Drifter: My neighbour tried desperately to get a meeting with ANYBODY from the Enterprise crew. The man has a Ph. D in English, so he at least has credentials. All his stuff came back unopened. They don’t answer the phone at UPN.
Luigi Novi: Paramount/Trek stopped accepting spec scripts (the only ones in the industry, I believe, who used to do so at all) after Voyager.
All you have to do is look up Rick Berman interviews on google’s search. I’m sure they’ll popup. I’m not gonna sit here and take up PAD’s blog with Berman interviews. so, you’re on your own with that one. 🙂
No, you made the assertion, so it’s up to you to substantiate it.
Now, let me see if I’ve got the logic right: Rick Berman openly and proudly hates Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry’s philosophy, yet he manages to land gig as an executive producer at TNG. He even rises to the point of taking over as “caretaker” of Trek after GR dies (hmmm, did they really rule his death as natural causes?).
After which, he continues to publicly bad mouth the show that’s kept him employed since the late 80s and he even starts to deliberately make bad shows and bad movies just to destroy the franchise from the inside.
Is that about right?
Isn’t easier just to assume that Berman’s problems are simply arrogance and incompetence rather than some sinister motive?
But, the Alliance might not have really been “sinister.” It’s just the point of view we were given.
But, Whedon gave us nothing to suspect that they were anything but sinister.
I’m happy to see “Angel” go. There can never be a “good vampire” story, any more than there can be a “good rapist story” or a “good Nazi-affirming Holocaust story.” ‘Nuff said there.
I disagree – it depends on the writers’ take on the nature of vampirism. Some writers like Brian Lumley write them as evil evil evil to the pits of their rotten core, but some other writers write them as sympathetic protagonists with heavy burdens to bear and secrets to hide. Like P.N. Elrod’s Jack Fleming from her Vampire Files novels – he’s a guy who just happened to be in the wrong situation at the wrong time, and his being a vampire was more like an unpleasant medical condition.
We can’t make sweeping generalizations about vampire stories just because the high-profile ones take the “bad vampire” angle and write them as evil-for-evil’s-sake (and let’s face it, that’s how Buffy started) or as cheesy erotica staples. It’s like saying there can’t be any “good werewolf” stories because they’re nothing but bloodthirsty and violent forces of nature.
Incidentally, Forever Knight was a great TV series about a vampire seeking redemption after years of being monstrous. The vampires on that show weren’t evil-for-evil’s-sake – they were shown doing all kinds of human things like solving crimes, serving in the Red Cross, and so on. (this show was why I could never get into Angel – to me, FK had always done it first and had concentrated on the vampire thing without cluttering it with ninety-nine other kinds of supernatural stuff).
As to the whole argument about the Borg nanoprobes being vulnerable to a certain kind of radiation, I would think the answer is obvious: in the 200 years between series, they discovered this vulnerability and adapted, perhaps with a heads up as part of the signal that was sent. It makes sense that they might have been able to glean this much from Phlox or understood why his nanoprobes stopped working, thereby rewriting the future of BoBW & First Contact, and then sending vulnerable drones in order to ensure that this vulnerability would be be exposed and taken care of.
I LOVE angel i really love Angel it is my absolute favourite show and i really agree and obviously so many others agree it is so much better then some dumb reality tv show! A ton of people were dissapointed when Buffy stopped and they were all relieved Angel was still around. Now we find out that Angel is being shut down we are ALL furious!!!!!
SAVE ANGEL DUMP REALITY TV!!!
Gee, Sara, how do you feel about “Angel”? 🙂
Y’know – a lot of the general indifference to Enterprise may simply be down to the fact that there is so darn much of Star Trek going about. And by that I mean the TNG/Voyager/Enterprise triptych.
Now, the problem is that these are all much of a muchness- sure the actors differ from series to series but the general plots, structures – even individual scenes are all much the same. You could play a party game here – cut out scenes from a random selection of episodes from each s eries, jumble them up, write some linking d ialogue and – hey presto – a whole new episode.
Now, ’tis true that each series has also produced a number of individual episodes that stand up well in terms of drama and general quality – and it could also be argued reasonably that TNG was responsible for the resurgence of interest in television science-fiction after the Galactic 80 fiasco.
But there is sooo much of it that is the same – pick a mid -season story from, say, Season 5 of Voyager, season 5 of TNg and season 2 of Enterprise – very little difference I maintain. And the stuff is all over the place even here in Britain – you can’t move for it on Sky One, BBC2, Channel 4…clogging up the television arteries like the TV version of a Big Mac with cheese.
There’s my comparison – Trek nowadays is like fast-food – it works provided you serve up the same thing, day by day – the customers are happy because they know what they are getting, you are happy because you don’t have to give much thought to changing the recipe. Occasionally you can introduce a whole new item – Cajun Chicken burger or a new Starship captain – but you soon move back and your audience goes with you. Smiles all round.
( By the way I exclude DS9 for two reasons – one, because I hold that it DID establish an indentity distinct from the rest of Trek as it was in the 90s – and two, for the far less valid reason that I liked it the best…I want my DS9 movie gewdammmit !!!)
Whilst I can’t advance any argument that Berman hates the GR universe I do find it strange, to say the least, that Original Trek remains the one high profile SF series that hasn’t been released on those big Season 1 DVD boxed sets. Even Lost in Space is now available ( and yup, I’m buying it – the pain, oh, the pain )- but not TOS.
Isn’t Berman missing the trick here ? Given that Enterprise is supposedly a prequel of sorts to the original s eries, then releasing TOS on DVD would seem to be a good way of priming both fan, and general public, enthusiasm. After all – if people are willing to stand up and be counted as fans by buying Battlestar Galactica on boxed set ( umm- one !! )- then imagine how they will flock to buy Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley et al…?
Yet – it isn’t there to buy… wonder why ? Even with Eneterprise struggling to survive, TOS remains concpicuous by its absence. Could it be that someone, somewhere is afraid that reviewing TOS would make a lot of people realise that Star Trek used to be about really fun people in really clourful sets going to really weird planets where they would have really wild adventures…
And not a bunch of dreepy faced saddos in grey bolier suits sitting in a dimly lit spaceship snapping at one another …
Actually, Dave, I’m fairly certain I read recently that TOS is next up for DVD treatment right after Voyager’s run is completed.
My suspicion is that it simply took a lot more effort to assemble in terms of cleaning up prints, getting extras from people who are now harder to find, etc. That could be completely bogus — but in any case, I think it’s on the way.
TWL
I understand the need for continuity, but come on. Bashing the show because of all of the continuity errors seems silly to me. Enterprise has remained true to its own continuity and Star Trek in general has so many time travel episodes that have affected what could have/did happen that I doubt anyone really knows the history behind the Star Trk universe.
Dear Tim
You have made an old man very very very happy !!!!
cheers
dave
One thing that should be mentioned (and if it was already then shoot be because after 50+ posts of what was wrong with Enterprise gave me a headache) is that, while this is a TV show, no writer can write something current and leave open infinite possibilities. The people saying that the NX-01 has never appeared any form of Trek history is preposterous! It hadn’t even been thought of yet. Most Star Trek shows, until Enterprise, have been forward storytelling where they can build on history already established or history they just made up. With Enterprise we have had a chance to see the beginnings of that history and sure there will be some problems – but to a large extent they are still making up history. Jeez Louise, It sounds like the famous SNL skit in here. Star Trek (and all forms of entertainment on TV) is suppose to be fun – well, this is taking it a bit extreme.
Another thing that I saw over and over (at least through the first 50) was how they should do “Starfleet Academy” or “Star Fleet Academy with Jim Kirk, Spock, etc…” I guarantee you that if they had done this type of show or something similar, the same people tearing apart the show about continuity would have had a field day with this one too. Eg…OH, did you see last night’s episode??? You have got to be kidding… I can’t believe that they had Kirk kiss an Asian woman. They have totally blown the continuity of the TOS. Everybody knows that Kirk’s first interracial kiss was Uhura… This would have been of course been wrong because it was the first interracial kiss on television, but you get my point. We all have our different ways of making the show fit together, justifying (or not) different events of the timeline.
Enterprise for better or worse is a fun show as it was meant to be. There will never be a show that will live up to every expectation of every fan. I have been let down with a few episodes, but over all have had a lot of fun with this current series. I hope to have fun with it a few seasons more.
“Another thing that I saw over and over (at least through the first 50) was how they should do “Starfleet Academy” or “Star Fleet Academy with Jim Kirk, Spock, etc…” I guarantee you that if they had done this type of show or something similar, the same people tearing apart the show about continuity would have had a field day with this one too. Eg…OH, did you see last night’s episode??? You have got to be kidding… I can’t believe that they had Kirk kiss an Asian woman. They have totally blown the continuity of the TOS. Everybody knows that Kirk’s first interracial kiss was Uhura… This would have been of course been wrong because it was the first interracial kiss on television, but you get my point.”
Your point was also made rather dramatically last night, as I visited a local major retailer of books. As I browsed the SF, a gentleman (and I use the term loosely) of about 20 or so destroyed the quiet I was enjoying, by loudly “proving” to his friend that the “Enterprise” series couldn’t have *really* happened – because there was no picture of the NX-01 on the cover of the Official History of Star Trek!
The problem with Paramount and by extension, the existing Trek franchise is the same problem that can be applied to most suits at Hollywood Studios. Note I say “Most” as even amidst the dregs of tie-wearing, tie-choked execs you can sometimes find a person with a modicum of creative vision. That is, formulaitis. “This is what has worked for us in the past so it will work again in the future.” Three very virulant strains of this disease are “spinoffitis” , “sequalitis” and “adaptatitis” all of which are the new plague of American filmmaking. How else could be a a plot vacnt character study vignette like “Lost in Translation” get ” Best Original Screenplay”..there is very little competition that has any marketing behind it.
Someone once said that nothing new exists under the sun. They were wrong. The theme may be reminiscent of earlier works but that does not neccesitate being derivative. Unique characters, plot twists and challenges can always be original or at the very least their combination can be original.
Take Enterprise- I actually had an opprtunity to read Peter’s column in Dreamquest a while back about Enterprise and he hit on a proposal that I made to the suits at Trek. But were told “Paramount tells us when we do a new series not the other way around.” This only reinforces the formulaitis. Until someone comes up with a cure for these plagues of entertainment we will be stuck with more and more “reality shows” like The Simple Life and Joe Midget. These shows are a direct outgrowth of the lack of creativity in the industry because they can be unpredictable and non-formulaic which is what the public demands.
I call for the industry to quit taking the cheap route of quasi-reality shows and invest in some real creativity. Shows that push the limits like The Twilight Zone did in it’s day, or Quantum Leap the most original time travel series ever. But most importantly not be dogmatically attached to formulas and not be afraid to try something new..notably like sci-fi channel and do it as a mini-series to test the waters and then go for a full series if you find an eager public.
BTW: Peter if you’d like to be involved in the development of an Anti-Trek as in Anti-Matter series potentially to pitch to Sci-Fi channel drop me a line.
http://www.missionthanatos.com
Believe it or not, I went through all the posts about Star Trek (hereafter ST) and Enterprise’s cancellation. I’ve got some (long . . . sorry) comments:
1) The purpose of a TV show is to sell the products of the advertisers who buy spots on them. If the show’s not attracting and holding the eyeballs of viewers, then the network and its marketers can’t sell spots on that show to advertisers, and the outside funding for the show dries up. They then have to fund whatever episodes they need to for contractual reasons with the leftover funds, or via debt
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