UPDATED 3/1, 9:43 PM–A request to the hit and runners. By that I mean the people who swing by for the express purpose of hurling blame, invoking Gail Simone, calling me names and departing. You might want to consider taking the time to read the thread. Read it in its entirety, read the most recent posts, whatever. The chances are you will already see your comments responded to (since the H&Rs are pretty much all saying the same thing) by myself, various fans, and Gail. Honestly, I don’t expect this message to have much impact on the H&Rs, but I figure it’s worth a shot.
Did you ever hear of Scans Daily?
I had not.
Kathleen informs me that it began as a site on Live Journal where individual scenes from comic books were put up and commented upon. Apparently, this included certain panels from “Young Justice” to which homoerotic subtext was ascribed. It’s a shame I never had a chance to see those. That would have been funny.
But somewhere along the way, it morphed into posters giving page by page summaries of new comics, complete with the entire pages. Writing a critical review and posting up a panel or a page to illustrate a point falls under fair use. Posting over half the book while saying, “This happened, then this happened, then this happened,” is not remotely fair use and a blatant copyright violation.
On an “X-Factor #40” thread on CBR, someone put a link to it. This put it on my radar, and–I suspect–on other people’s radar as well.
Conscientious people have reported to me when they see flagrant copyright violations of my work (typically entire Star Trek novels being posted online). So I did the same thing, informing Marvel of the scans.
Did Marvel then shut them down? No. Because before Marvel legal had an opportunity to do anything, the scans had already been removed for being a violation of terms of service of Photobucket, the site that enabled the posters to put up pictures on line. Perhaps the CBR links put the site on PB’s radar as well as mine.
I did, however, use my wife’s Live Journal account to make my presence known. A fan asked if I had informed Marvel about the scans. An honest question. I replied honestly. I said yes, I had, but that the scans were pulled before Marvel took any action.
Two days later, Scans Daily was shut down completely. Purely a guess: Photobucket complained to Live Journal and LJ said, “Enough’s enough.”
The reaction on the blogosphere? Peter David got Scans Daily shut down.
Well…no. Again: My intervention wound up having no impact. And besides, if anyone got Scans Daily shut down, it was the fans themselves. Some will own up to that reality. Many, I suspect, won’t.
PAD
• 
Daryl, by any chance are you a guy?
Jeremy…I’m going to guess you’re a guy.
Daryl, Jeremy…Comic book stores are not always female-friendly (more like almost never). A large percentage of scans_daily were females. And yeah, Daryl, you were talking to one of those females.
You suggest simply going into a comic book store and leafing through a book. LOL, Man, as if all comic book stores were like Borders or Barnes & Noble.
You know they’re not.
You guys are talking from a position of priviledge. You go to a comic book store, and it’s no big deal. No one bats an eye. Sadly, that’s not the case for many female comic book readers or any female that’s curious about comics. When I would go to a comic book store, it would never be longer than five minutes.
I’d go only to the counter, ask for my comics (that I may have requested by phone), wait by the counter, pay and out the door I’d go. I don’t linger, and I don’t browse the walls of comics. Why? One, most comic book stores tend to be creepy and dark, or two, guys in the store stare, if not approach you with a creepy come on, or three, service tends to be crappy with the guy at the counter being short or condescending with little-oh-you.
Funny, how I don’t get that treatment at Borders or Barnes and Noble. Problem is they don’t normally carry the monthly comics or even a large variety of comics or comic tpbs.
I fortunately found one comic book store that’s very female friendly. It’s co-owned by one of the female librarians of my university’s library. She’s done her research and her husband’s a nice guy. Also most of the clientele are college students. Problem is it’s a 30 minute drive there and I’m a very busy woman. I’m lucky if I can make it out there once a month.
So yeah, people like me don’t have the time to leaf through comic books at a comic book store. I could go to the one near my house, but it’s creepy. So no leafing through comic book pages there. 9_9 If I go to nice comic book store, I’m on a time limit!
At least I’m fortunate to have found one comic book store that’s female-friendly, well-lit, clean, with educated friendly people, and with good customer service, even if its far away.
But that’s not the case for many female comic book readers across the country.
Please do not assume that everyone is comfortable walking into a comic book store. Cuz yeah, it’s never that simple. I wish it could be, but it’s not. For various reasons.
Peter H,
Yeah, because stopping yourself from reading something you apparently greatly enjoyed just because you can’t read some other stuff without having to pay for it now just makes so much sense. You know what? I think Mel Gibson is a bit of a prìçk and his racist rant about the Jews confirmed some things for me that others had said about him. I’ll still see him act in a movie because the movie is enjoyable and why should I act so childishly retarded that I’ll stop watching something that I enjoyed because a man involved in it is an @$$?
You’re either very petty, small and a bit dumb or you’re not really a reader of the book who enjoyed it all that much. Either way, who cares.
“Funny, how I don’t get that treatment at Borders or Barnes and Noble. Problem is they don’t normally carry the monthly comics or even a large variety of comics or comic tpbs.”
I keep seeing this and it just has me scratching my head. I’ve been to lots of other states where the Books-A-Million, Borders or Barnes and Noble all make the ones around me look like their low end stores, and every one of them in my area have huge manga sections, giant TPB sections and a pretty sizable new comics rack that is stocked with more than just Marvel and DC hero books and the Archie and Disney lines.
I used to think it was bad around here, but… Where do some of you people live?
Dropping back in to catch up with the brouhaha (ha ha ha!) again:
Posted by Rob
Regulations are one thing, case law that determines how those regulations are interpreted is another. And I’m sure that the case law shows that impact on marketability is a key factor in determining fair use.
You can be sure all you want. Though i can’t cite them, there have been decisions that turned strictly on how much, rather than possible damages. Both are of equal preponderance in deciding.
(Thanks for getting the lower-case name right, BTW – but it only has one “b”…)
Posted by Geoff Sebesta
What I’m getting from you here, Mr. David, is that you don’t know what it was worth and you don’t understand what you broke.
What i’m getting from you, Mr Sebasta (and others like you), is that you have an inflated idea of ehat the site was “worth” and you don’t understand plain English or logic, since it’s quite plain that, whatever PAD did, he was not responsible for the takedown.
I’m not expecting you to change or anything, that would be silly.
Well phrased. You won’t.
Posted by Dan Hetrick
I’m sorry you don’t really understand the Internet and how it works, Mr. David. I’m not a regular buyer of the various X books, but I’ll make sure to avoid your books in the future.
Wow. Simply wow. I have to pause for a moment to appreciate the sheer self-important fatuous and pompous ludicrousness of that line.
Congratulations. You definitely win the “Most Clueless Fanboy” award for 2009, and it’s only March first.
Posted by Queen Anthai
A lot of comic shops don’t let you read through the comics. None of mine ever have, and I’ve lived in three states. I suppose it’s to keep them from getting bent or ripped or grody from multiple hands.
Were any of those Walter’s shop?
I’ve never been to a comic shop where they wouldn’t let you check out the books – well, i suppose, if you came in with hideously dirty hands and looked as if you’d roll the spine and leave fingerprints all over the pages they might not – and that includes the most recent shop i patronised, which boards and backs them before they put them out, but don’t mind if you open one to check it out.
Posted by Emma
I didn’t care about comics even a little before scans_daily, and yours was one of the first comics it hooked me on. I’m sorry it’s gone, and I’m sorry you don’t understand its value.
I missed this comment before posting my last two omnibus responses, so i’ll hit it now:
If you “…didn’t care about comics even a little…”, why did you go to a site consisting of comic scans and comics discussion? There’s a logical disconnect there somewhere…
Posted by Jason M. Bryant
Let’s say that PAD had done exactly what he did, but Literotica hadn’t shut down Scans Daily.
Ummm – “Literotica”? You really oughta use the “Preview” feature to proofread your posts. (Of course, i do use it and i still miss osome typos.) {Like the one in that sentence…}
Posted by Peter David
The woodwork, the floor, the walls, the ceiling…
“Close the door, they’re comin’ in the windows…”
Yeah, Scans Daily is pretty well-known in the Internet comics community.
I think we’re reaching a crisis point. More and more people are coming to believe that if something can be uploaded to the Internet, then they should get it for free. I don’t think there’s any way to reverse this trend, but those who make a living off of intellectual property have to figure out a comprehensive approach for dealing with it. If we leave it to a case-by-case approach, the ugliness we’ve seen here will just be the beginning.
If you did any of this to increase sales you just shot yourself in the foot.
“I think Mel Gibson is a bit of a prìçk and his racist rant about the Jews confirmed some things for me that others had said about him. I’ll still see him act in a movie because the movie is enjoyable and why should I act so childishly retarded that I’ll stop watching something that I enjoyed because a man involved in it is an @$$?”
You know what, Jerry? That’s exactly what I do. In fact, I haven’t watched a Mel Gibson picture in years. My theory is that a person can be the worst human being possible all that he wants. I simply won’t contribute my funds to making it possible for him to do that.
Posted by Haro Genki
Now, I don’t know a whole lot about Marvel’s legal team, but corporate legal teams in general tend to be a bit zealous themselves…
In the past they’ve tended to be rather hunourless and hair-trigger sensitive:
Quoting from a site devoted to Dave Sim‘s Cerebus the Aardvark:
Posted by Jerry Chandler at March 1, 2009 01:34 AM
I’ve been to lots of other states where the Books-A-Million, Borders or Barnes and Noble all make the ones around me look like their low end stores, and every one of them in my area have huge manga sections, giant TPB sections and a pretty sizable new comics rack that is stocked with more than just Marvel and DC hero books and the Archie and Disney lines.
The Books-a-Million here in Gainesville GA has a sizeable comics section (and bigger manga and TPB sections), and it’s not even one of the larger BaM stores, and Gainesville is hardly a major market (the nearest comic store that i know of is twenty miles away).
Some thoughts on this situation:
– As discussed above, fair use is a complex concept, encompassing the four factor balancing test mentioned here. No factor by itself is usually determinative of whether or not fair use exists in a particular case. Whether or not something is fair use is something that usually is decided in court.
From what I can tell (I only looked at the site a few times when it was up, but I’ve been looking at a sampling of it’s older material from an archive), many of the posts in Scans_daily clearly were a violation of fair use (e.g. posting several pages of a comic, with no commentary on the story itself ), and many were clearly not (posting a few panels or pages, while reviewing the comic), and others were in between.
Often the posting of a few pages/panels appeared designed to spark a discussion of the comic itself.
Whether or not many of these postings were a violation of the right’s holder’s rights is a matter of genuine disagreement, and a court could decide in either direction for the borderline cases.
– These issues seem very similar to what sites like Youtube are dealing with. Some videos are clearly fair use (baby dancing with Prince music in background), some are clearly not (posting of full episodes of Star Trek), some are in between (fan creations of new Star Trek episodes). The way that Youtube deals with it is by letting copyright holders take down videos that they think violate their copyright. In Youtube’s case, there’s a way to dispute that process, and it works to some extent, but it’s imperfect and causes videos that are arguably legal to be taken down. There’s a way for the uploaded to dispute the take-downs, but they don’t do so in the vast majority of cases, even when the video is arguably legal.
– Much of the grey area in fair use has to do with “remix”ing copyrighted material to make new interesting stuff (e.g: “certain panels from “Young Justice” to which homoerotic subtext was ascribed”). From what PAD said in his initial post, it seems like he’s not against this sort of content being posted. However, if DC Comics saw that posting, they’d probably send a takedown notice to Livejournal and it would be gone. (The poster might be able to dispute it, and then DC Comics would be able to sue the poster if they wanted).
– From what I can tell, Livejournal is the one that decided to take down the community. It’s evident that many of the posts on scans_daily violated copyright law, and Livejournal probably didn’t want to deal with complaints about individual posts that were forthcoming. The equivalent action for YouTube would be to remove all videos that are tagged “Star Trek”, to get rid of all full Star Trek episodes posted there, even if there were many non-infringing videos with the tag. Such an action is likely within the site’s right to do, but causes a lot of collateral damage to useful, legal, and interesting material. Of course, you could make the argument that the whole point of the community was the posts that summarized comics by posting several pages of each, with the non-infringing posts only a small portion of the content.
– Much of the negative feelings on these copyrighted works / takedowns from users has to do with the strong feelings that fans have towards the stuff that they post. They often feel like they’re promoting the work by posting creative works based on the things that they are doing. Paramount is likely within its rights to, for example, to demand the takedown of all the fan productions of Star Trek episodes that have been created over the past several years, but they’d be foolish to do so, as they’d lose a lot of goodwill. Many copyright holders feel like they should control every aspect of how their work is used, while fans also have a sense of ownership in it. Nowadays, many of the things that are essential parts of a person’s self-identity are copyrighted by others, and they want to express these ideas to others.
– These types of issues aren’t going to be solved overnight. The collision of Internet technologies and copyright has been going on for many years, and has caused a lot of loss of ideas that have been removed, deleted, or never been realized. Many copyright holders don’t want to lose revenue or control while many users want to be able to express themselves. Hopefully some sort of solution will be forthcoming that satisfies all stakeholders, but it seems unlikely to take place anytime soon.
These are the sorts of disputes that are taking place all over the Internet, and the scope of the problems that result is one of the reasons that I decided to go to law school.
—
On a somewhat tangential note, PAD, I was wondering what your position was on the Amazon Kindle’s text to speech capabilities? The author’s guild came out against it, since authors sell the audiobook and ebook rights separately. However, others think that this type of thing is no different that reading a book to your child or building a machine to read a regular book to you.
“You know what, Jerry? That’s exactly what I do. In fact, I haven’t watched a Mel Gibson picture in years. My theory is that a person can be the worst human being possible all that he wants. I simply won’t contribute my funds to making it possible for him to do that.”
There are two terms for this. (1) Confusing the artist for the art and (2) cutting your own nose off to spite your face.
Besides, you say you don’t like person A so you’ll not contribute to his income. Well, what about persons B – Z that also worked on a project? Some with the comics. You’ll scream, “I’ll get you, Peter David!” loudly and all night, but you’ll also “get” the penciler, the inker, the letterist, the colorer, etc. That’s the way to go. You get something for nothing anymore so you’ll take as many people down as you can.
You know the other fun thing fun thing about stupid crap like that? In the internet age businesses get a lot of, basically, the spam email of fan outrage. Some people who have never read a certain book or seen a certain show will post on forums and send emails to the people behind it saying that the product is garbage or that something happened so they’re never buying it again. It’s kinda a troll thing. As a result a lot of emails like that never even get read.
So all a publisher might see is a dip in sales without really knowing why. You know what that may tell the publisher? That a certain type of book, a certain type of book you enjoy, isn’t as popular as other books are. Result? They just might publish less of the books that are like the ones that you like to read.
And all because you decided that you had to be outraged about not getting something for nothing anymore.
But the reality of the situation is that you’ll likely have very little impact. The other thing with the trollish nature of the modern internet age is that just about every twit that wants to be a jerk claims to be writer A’s biggest fan and most loyal reader, but, dámņ it, they had to say something political that the reader didn’t like or support an idea that the reader didn’t like and that’s the end of their being a fan forever more. Thing is, only about 1 in 100 (and sometimes more like 1 in 1000) of those “fans” really were fans who regularly bought anything. So at this point, just going by the number of posts in this thread and subtracting non-SD screamers, PAD’s down a whole two readers.
Have a nice night.
~8?)`
It seems a lot of people are upset PAD didnt handle things “in house” and go to the administrators of the site,
Instead he got the pesky real world involved .
HOW DARE HE!
the closing of Scans Daily was INEVITABLE.
It was only a matter of time.
whgat really closed them down was a little matter of wanton Copyright Infingement.
That can only go on for so long.
It seems a lot of people are upset PAD didnt handle things “in house” and go to the administrators of the site,
Instead he got the pesky real world involved .
HOW DARE HE!
the closing of Scans Daily was INEVITABLE.
It was only a matter of time.
whgat really closed them down was a little matter of wanton Copyright Infingement.
That can only go on for so long.
I maintain that the SD people are good people. I am positive that they would try to work with creators if asked. My experience with them is that they DO care about creator input and are decent folks all around, who really love comics, as opposed to these fileshare sites that have no human presence at all.
That said, let me get this out.
I did not write my letter to attack Peter David. I wrote it because of MY OWN feelings about SD, which are generally quite positive. I’m glad to hear they are cutting the number of scans permitted. That is awesome, and shows they’re listening.
But for the record, I was completely unaware of all this X-factor/spoiler stuff, and that Peter had actually GONE to Scans-daily. To this time, I still have no idea what was said, but I can cetainly imagine someone being obnoxious or rude. I’ve certainly been the recipient of plenty of that (and dished some of it out, I regret to say). The letter is about MY feelings about SD and that’s the extent of it.
It doesn’t change what I said in the letter at all, not a whit, but it may help the context to know that I absolutely wasn’t aiming it at Peter. In fact, that bit about snark and issues being panned and how people should chill out? Guess who that was aimed at?
Me. I MYSELF have over-reacted to posts there, more than once, and the ‘Who Cares?’ was merely my personal affirmation, a way to remind myself that some of the negative experiences I’ve had at SD on occasion were, in fact, ultimately my fault.
The fact that some people are using this letter to further cudgel Peter David makes me sad. That’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about how I perceive the site after years of being a regular poster there, not trying to ingratiate myself at Peter’s expense, which would be unfair, uncouth, and undeserved.
Even the mods at SD have said that they understood Peter’s position, and I think with a little stretch, a lot of the SD posters could, as well. It’s not ‘sharing,’ to us. It’s our hard work and our livelihood, and misunderstandings can easily occur under such circumstances.
In fact, I think they’ve been extremely gracious (the SD mods), and have apparently made serious changes in the new site, and I think that shows that compromise is possible and I believe it COULD benefit everyone, and still be a darn entertaining resource and community for readers and browsers.
I am optimistic. Please everyone, dial it down a notch, if possible. SD is gonna come back in some form, and that community will hopefully continue to flourish, AND apparently have new guidelines that may in fact encourage a lot more support from creators and publishers alike. At the same time, it is perfectly reasonable that employees whose careers depend on properties under copyright help protect that copyright when called upon. The people who are FURIOUS about that are being a little unrealistic.
I’m certain we can find a compromise that works.
I love the notion that “LiveJournal is notoriously reactionary” when it comes to taking down sites with copyrighted material on them, “Marvel is notoriously humorless” when it comes to copyright infringement, and yet somehow nothing would ever have happened if Peter David hadn’t happened to say something about it.
There’s a certain charming innocence to it, like watching a small child prepare to lick an electrical outlet for the very first time. 🙂
Daryl, Jeremy…Comic book stores are not always female-friendly (more
like almost never).
There certainly are stores that fit that description. Maybe even a
disproportionate number. At the same time, however, there are also stores
that aren’t always "stranger-friendly." (As in, if you’re not a regular
customer, forget about any assistance whatsoever.) There’s also plenty of
stores that are actually run professionally, and will be glad to have a paying
customer, regardless of their gender.
And yeah, Daryl, you were talking to one of those females.
That was quite apparent from that initial post. Equally apparent was
that she seemed to be an existing reader, as she stated a preference for FNSM
over the other two Spider-Man titles, and for PAD’s She-Hulk over Dan Slott’s.
She was familiar with the product, but expects all of us reading her post to
believe that she didn’t know Marvel was launching/had launched a third
Spider-Man title.
When I would go to a comic book store, it would never be longer than five
minutes.
I’d go only to the counter, ask for my comics (that I may have requested
by phone), wait by the counter, pay and out the door I’d go. I don’t linger, and
I don’t browse the walls of comics. Why?
Because, as you’re about to point out, you claim to be treated as an
outsider, so you chose to distance yourself from the source of the books…to
continue to make your presence an unexpected rarity instead of an expected
regular occurrence.
One, most comic book stores tend to be creepy and dark, or two, guys in
the store stare, if not approach you with a creepy come on,
This describes most bars in the US. A great many women willingly and
regularly go to them for hours at a time. In many cases, disappointed if
the men there don’t stare and/or approach them with a creepy come on.
Personally, I don’t understand the appeal. A dark, creepy, loud place,
where the intent is to pay inflated amounts of money for a liquid that will
quickly flow through my system, but leave my faculties increasingly impaired the
more I consume, and spend time interacting with people that I’d likely never
speak to if my faculties weren’t impaired.
That knee-jerk reaction out of the way, while I may agree that "most comic
stores used to be creepy and dark," then I guess we’re once again proving
that my karma’s seriously misaligned, as every comic store I’ve been in in the
past 10 years has been fairly well lit and welcoming. There can be an
illusion of darkness as most tend to be stacked wall-to-wall with product of
some kind. And, if you’re avoiding comic stores because guys there may
stare or "approach you with a creepy come on," I just need to ask…do you leave
your home at all? Those possibilities exist anywhere you go. You
might be in the local mall…hëll, the local supermarket…and catch someone’s
eye, even if it’s unwelcome.
or three, service tends to be crappy with the guy at the counter being
short or condescending with little-oh-you.
Again…can happen to anywhere, to anyone. Have you complained about
the service? Perhaps if you did more than sheepishly creep into the store
to pick up the books you ordered by phone, paid and immediately scrambled out,
the guy behind the counter might realize you know what you’re doing there, and
maybe – just maybe (I know there’s jerks out there working comic stores, and
they’re not just jerks to women) it might turn out that what you’re interpreting
as being short and condescending, in some cases, is the clerk trying to be
helpful, but you’ve filtered that through your preconceived notions that you’re
not welcome there.
Funny, how I don’t get that treatment at Borders or Barnes and Noble.
Funny, how – depending on the Borders or B&N location – I’ve encountered poor
lighting, men staring at/trying to pick up women (and vice versa), and
poor/condescending service. I’ve also encountered great atmosphere and
helpful service. But, by all means…let’s continue to paint with the
broad brush.
Problem is they don’t normally carry the monthly comics or even a large
variety of comics or comic tpbs.
B&N…yeah, not much with the monthlies. Borders, definitely better.
The two closest to us are contrasts in night and day when it comes to selection
of the monthlies. Have you let the management know that you’re interested
in them, and which titles? Help them to help you. As for tpb’s,
maybe I’m once again losing out on the lottery because of good luck in this
arena. The two closest Borders locations to us have rather large
(bordering – no pun intended – on being enough to call "huge") tpb selections.
My regular comic store has a pretty darn good selection of tpb’s, and I’d say
that at least one of those Borders locations rivals it. In fact, I
sometimes have better luck locating tpb’s there than at the comic store.
Problem is it’s a 30 minute drive there and I’m a very busy woman. I’m
lucky if I can make it out there once a month.
So yeah, people like me don’t have the time to leaf through comic books at
a comic book store. I could go to the one near my house, but it’s creepy. So no
leafing through comic book pages there. 9_9 If I go to nice comic book store,
I’m on a time limit!
How ’bout that? My comic store is about a 20-30 minute drive, and I
usually can only make it once a month, too. (In fact, at this point, it’s
been since December that I’ve had a chance to go.) Obviously, I can
understand going out of your way to go to a particular comic store because you
feel the service is worth it. But, you’re on a time limit because you
choose to impose one on yourself. We’re not talking about spending hours
at the store. We’re talking about scanning the racks, seeing if something
catches your eye, and flipping through it for a few seconds to see if something
grabs you enough to make the purchase…in other words, an extra 5-10 minutes.
To be on such a such a tight schedule that there’s not even that little
flexibility must be quite harrowing. It would almost certainly eliminate
ever going out to eat, as you can easily lose that 5-10 minutes or more if
there’s a crowd waiting for tables, a problem in the kitchen, a just plain lousy
server, etc.
Please do not assume that everyone is comfortable walking into a comic
book store. Cuz yeah, it’s never that simple. I wish it could be, but it’s not.
For various reasons.
And most – if not all – of those reasons are self-perceived, self-imposed and
self-perpetuating.
Let’s assume, just for the sake of discussion, that women are universally
treated as abberations in comic stores. The only way for that to stop is
for them to stop being abberations in comics stores. Enjoy comics?
Want to pick some up at the comic store? Do it! The more women who
go into a comic store regularly, the more used to it the employees and customers
alike will become. I hesitate to go overboard in making this particular
comparison but, here goes. You think you’re "not comfortable" going into a
"typical" comic store…that "it’s never that simple?" Something tells me
that Rosa Parks was a bit nervous herself on December 1, 1955. So it’s
your choice, Jessie…you can either go into that comic store and to hëll with
what that jerk behind the counter thinks…or, you can keep going to the back of
the bus and let things remain the same. Which will it be?
At the end of the day, though, this particular digression – while certainly
an interesting and meaty conversation – is exactlly that…a digression.
And, it all stems from a disconnect in liliaeth’s logic in her attempt to
explain the good she perceived Scans_daily to provide: that someone interested
enough in comics to not only have obvious familiarity with several titles but to
also seek out and participate in an online community devoted to posting (at
least) portions of comics would be unaware of one of the largest publishers in
comics launching a third title featuring their flagship character…a title
which launched by crossing over with the two titles she was apparently already
reading (enough to determine that she preferred that third title to them, at any
rate). Clearly, she was attempting to drive her point home by using
example’s of PAD’s work specifically. Unfortunately, she chose an example
that seems to have undermined her point.
–Daryl
I have anticipated your post, sir John Seavey, having heard this very argument in the past. I will respond with my default reply to the ‘if it wasn’t him, it would have been someone else’ argument.
“Man, that cancer patient only had a month to live anyway. Why are you so upset at the guy that accidentally ran him over yesterday?”
The fact it would have happened eventually anyway doesn’t erase how events happened and where responsibility lies.
The fact it would have happened eventually anyway doesn’t erase how events
happened and where responsibility lies.
…which would be with those who posted copyrighted material without the
permission of the copyright holder(s), correct?
All I’m going to say is google “peter david scans daily” and read the countless comments from people crediting Scans Daily for the reason they made multiple book purchases.
Do that and then ask yourself if being the catalyst to that website’s demise is going to help triple sales of the book, or “kneecap” it as you put it. You can add me to the list of those who pulled your book off my pull list Saturday.
Oh and FYI: thinking that being told to DIAF (die in a fire) is a death threat is like thinking being told to go fornicate yourself and the horse you rode in on is sexual harassment.
So quit being such an eager snitch and learn how the internets work please.
Hi. I’m another s_d member, and I’d like to add my voice to the rest of the people who say that if it wasn’t for that community, they wouldn’t have spent money on comics. s_d started me off into buying comics, issue by issue, because from s_d I could see what was good and what I liked and what I’d pay money for.
I don’t doubt that it’s easy to argue that s_d violated the letter of copyright law, no matter how mods tried to keep down the number of pages posted; I would however argue that it tried its dámņdëšŧ not to violate the spirit. The heart of this kerfuffle is not law but perspective: Mr David clearly feels that s_d intended piracy and damaged his livelihood; s_d members feel that its purpose rather was to build a community of like-minded people who could discuss a shared love and help each other decide what best to spend their money on–e.g. YJ. (I for one have chased down back issues from a decade ago because I saw’em on s_d and thought they were worth it.) Yes, Mr David was well within his legal rights to call foul play, and I accept that he was not directly responsible for nuking the site, but he clearly agrees that it could and should’ve been done, and that hurt a lot of fans. Many fans, paying fans, feel that it wasn’t necessary, or even warranted, because harm was never intended. We intended it in good faith, which has not been reciprocated. You can of course say that fans’ feelings have jackshit to do with it, and legally speaking, you’d be right. But it would be so much better for all parties involved if there was a friendly relationship between fans and creator that involved a free exchange of ideas instead of this antagonistic bûllšhìŧ. This is not a zero-sum game. You could turn it into one–you could even turn it negative-sum–but why would you want to?
tl;dr fans are not always out to sucker the creator and get a free ride, and said fans would be happier (and presumably more inclined to buy things) if creators didn’t kick them inna teeth, even if creators have a perfect legal right to do so. If at all possible–I would humbly beg Mr David to please have some faith in his fans: we’re not out to rob you.
Man…I’m up waaaay too late tonight, but just keep refreshing and seeing more comments.
PAD…I’d be interested in knowing if, from the admin side of the site, (m)any of the “drive by” posts about dropping your books are coming from the same IP address.
Jerry: You’ve lumped me in with people attacking here. I just pointed out that sometimes I can’t support an awful person. If I can’t separate the art from the artist because of just how awful the artist is, the art is useless to me. It’s a very short list I have (slightly bigger now with Christian Bale) but hey, we each have to act as our consciences dictate.
Oh and BTW to all the people thinking DIAF is cool: Enjoy your karma. Hëll, it looks like you’re enjoying it already!
Took up X-Factor again last week. Brilliant. I’m an ex-comic book collector, but somehow or other I keep drifting back to Peter David titles. You’re really good. Your blog – and its group of regular an irregular commenters – is a much appreciated site, too.
I never heard about S-D before, I understand why members miss it; still, that’s no excuse. Lots of posters have put this better than me. Apparently, I don’t understand the internet either.
I don’t doubt that it’s easy to argue that s_d violated the letter of
copyright law, no matter how mods tried to keep down the number of pages posted;
I would however argue that it tried its dámņdëšŧ not to violate the spirit.
Wow…I seriously don’t know where to begin here. "Your honor, I didn’t
mean to kill that man I snuck up behind…just knock him out. I may have
violated the letter of the law, but I tried my dámņëdëšŧ not to violate the
spirit."
I accept that he was not directly responsible for nuking the site, but he
clearly agrees that it could and should’ve been done
Incorrect. All he "clearly agrees with" is that he felt s_d was
possibly violating copyright, and that the holders of the copyright should have
been informed. Which they were.
Many fans, paying fans, feel that it wasn’t necessary, or even warranted,
because harm was never intended. We intended it in good faith, which has not
been reciprocated.
Where was this "good faith?" If no harm was intended, and the posts
were made in good faith, then would it be safe to assume that those posting the
copyrighted material secured permission from the copyright holders? After
all, the host site’s Terms of Service outline that copyrighted materials could
not be posted without the permission of the copyright holders?
But it would be so much better for all parties involved if there was a
friendly relationship between fans and creator that involved a free exchange of
ideas instead of this antagonistic bûllšhìŧ.
There is and can be a "free exchange of ideas." Copyright violation is
not necessary for either a friendly relationship between fans and creator or a
free exchange of ideas. How, exactly, is notifying the copyright holder
that there may be a violation of copyright "antagonistic bûllšhìŧ?"
said fans would be happier (and presumably more inclined to buy things) if
creators didn’t kick them inna teeth…. I would humbly beg Mr David
to please have some faith in his fans: we’re not out to rob you.
Notifying the rightful copyright holder of potential copyright violation is
"kicking fans inna [sic] teeth," yet fans posting copyrighted material without
permission and in violation of the hosting site’s ToS are not "out to rob" the
rightful copyright holders.
Got it.
Nytwyng, I am thoroughly convinced you are a walking example of why fair-use laws exist to begin with.
Hi Peter,
I represent a group of comic lovers (23 and rising) from SouthAmerica which will upload all your comic books and novels, in english and spanish, and boycott your work by no buying anything with your name on it
until you apologize for the šhìŧ is coming out from your mouth..
If our web gets shut down, we will create another five clones. One in each continent.
Wellcome to the 21st century, my friend.
I love the notion that “LiveJournal is notoriously reactionary” when it comes to taking down sites with copyrighted material on them, “Marvel is notoriously humorless” when it comes to copyright infringement, and yet somehow nothing would ever have happened if Peter David hadn’t happened to say something about it.
There’s a certain charming innocence to it, like watching a small child prepare to lick an electrical outlet for the very first time. 🙂
Although most of the s_d brigade are approaching it from the wrong angle – it’s not exactly wrong.
Of course Marvel (and DC, and Dark Horse, and…) knew about the existence of s_d, but there’s a difference between them knowing about it and there being a record of them knowing about it. The moment there’s a record of them knowing about it, willful blindbess becomes impossible and the only responsible move (from a legal standpoint) is swift action.
Michael – Slick, I gotta ask you, how exactly was he not part of the conversation when he was the *subject* of the conversation?
As a mod of scans_Daily, I’m currently the subject of many of the conversations on comic sites. Do I know what they’re saying? No. I’m not a part of most of those conversations
Michael – Slick, I gotta ask you, how exactly was he not part of the conversation when he was the *subject* of the conversation?
——–
As a mod of scans_Daily, I’m currently the subject of many of the conversations on comic sites. Do I know what they’re saying? No. I’m not a part of most of those conversations
I would also like to confirm that Scans_daily was not closed by literotica, nor had it ever been affiliated with Literotica
So basically I see a lot of “but you weren’t REALLY buying the comics that got featured on s_d, admit it!” And I’m sorry, but that’s bûllšhìŧ. It’s not true. s_d tripled or quadrupled my pull list. I NEVER went from s_d to PirateBay or what not. I went from s_d to the frickin’ comic shop for the hard copy. Period. If that’s so inconceivable to people or to Mr. David, then I guess there’s nothing else to say about that. But he ought to know, a vast amount of users in that comm were buying X-Factor. With paper money. In real life.
As for some of the nuttier people on the comm, they can be a strain on the rest of us too. Even so, DIAF, while a not nice thing to say, is a standard Internet insult you’ll find anywhere on the Net. It’s typical immature wisecracking, and I’ve never heard anyone else call it a “death threat.” It’s not Mark David Chapman behind the keyboard. So the whole Johnny Upright, “what ho! these computer users have threatened me with bodily harm” bit is a little tired. One PMSing lunatic saying DIAF is obnoxious, but not personally dangerous. Otherwise I could’ve complained about that very same poster (IIRC) knocking me around for disagreeing with me about Final Crisis. But I don’t. Because it’s just the Internet, and she can do nothing to me.
I’m with mightygodking – the Big 2 knew about us. They would have done nothing unless forced to.
After 300+ comments, I doubt there’s anything new to say on the matter. I just wanted to add this.
I wasn’t aware of the site, but if I had been, I’d have done the same.
It’s not like copyright violations will make Peter poor, or stop the industry from recognising that he’s a hëll of a talent.
But we’ve seen some pretty incredible books get cancelled through bad sales. This is a direct consequence of that copyright violation. You’ll not convince me otherwise.
If people didn’t pirate Peter’s comics, we might never have seen the poor sales which ultimately cancelled titles like Captain Marvel. That pìššëš me off.
If I think Marvel books are too expensive, I either drop them, or wait for the trades. But Peter David’s books are consistantly worth buying.
Seriously? A promotional push from Marvel, including launching it with a ginormous crossover and a ton of variant covers didn’t do the trick? PAD himself mentioning it here kept you in the dark? It took a site like Scans_daily for you to be aware that one of the largest comics publishers in the country was launching a new title featuring their flagship character?
Considering that I’m Belgian, and that up to Civil War I mostly bought my Spider-Man comics in the dutch format. Which basically means that they mostly published Amazing, with only a few additions of the other comics.
It wasn’t until the unmasking got me fully back interested, that I went looking for back issues. Scans Daily helped me do so. Where instead of just looking for other series at my comic book store, it helped me find which other series that I would also liked. And found out that much as I loved JMS, I liked FNS’ dealing with the unmasking better.
I owe Scans daily for helping me realize that I was missing out on a lot of good stories, because JP only published a small portion of all published Spidey stories.
They also helped me find out about miniseries and classic stories that I’d missed and then went looking for.
I still look through Amazing, in the store, because most people on scans daily agreed with me that the current run of Amazing sucks. And therefore not much of it was posted.
Despite very few pages of Amazing being posted on scans daily, I still didn’t buy any of the issues, because looking through them in the store made clear what posting on scans daily would have done as well. Namely that Amazing sucks and is not worth my money.
I had a subscription on FNS, just like I had a subscription on Sensational and Amazing.
I still have a subscription on Amazing Spider-Girl and Ultimate Spider-Man. Because I can’t get to a comic book store every week and some series are worth it. But I still went to scans daily to see what others had to say on those issues that I had already bought or was waiting for from my subscriptions.
Why, because Scans Daily was more than a bunch of scans. It was about discussions, jokes, and talking with other fans about comics we loved, hated, or mostly never knew about.
I gave up on my subscription of X-factor because of the Messiah plot, which bored the hëll out of me. Not Peter David’s fault, it’s one of the few things where Peter David did not manage to make an overarching crossover more interesting.
And I still say I rather want Peter David on Amazing, rather than the no talent hacks that are currently ruining Spider-Man.
Thing is, I was buying comics before Scans Daily, but, I had a strict limit of what comics interested me, prior to Scans Daily, and it was thanks to Scans Daily, that I expanded my interest in comics and started reading series that I would not have bothered to pick up otherwise. Including X-factor, FNS, Peter David’s She-Hulk and so on…
That is a fact.
Sure I could have just downloaded those comics, but I like owning comics, I like having the paper in my hands and reading them away from my computer.
Scans Daily was never more than an aid and a discussion forum for me and I’m pretty sure for a lot of other fans who feel the same way.
Reading spoilers also helps get me interested.
I would have never bought the TPB’s for Invincible if someone hadn’t spoiled me for the plot twist in Invincible. As many others might have mentioned, if a comic depends on its plot twists to keep a reader’s interest, then the plot twist isn’t worth it. A good comic can be spoiled from first page to last, but will still be worth reading.
I knew about the plot twists around the Thunderbolts first issues, before buying it. And it was knowing about this plot twist that got me interested in the series. Had I not been spoiled, I would have just seen the series as yet another superhero group, of which there are plenty as it is. And I would NOT have bought the title. And therefore would have missed out on a great title, which I used to love.
In short, Scans Daily let me know about titles I would not have bothered to pick up otherwise. It gave me a chance to see if I thought a title worthy of my money.
And considering that my nearest comicbookshop is about an hour and a half away from me, including walking to the train station, taking the train to Antwerps, walking to the store and then being in there for half an hour, looking amongst hundreds if not thousands of new books, I used scans daily as a time saver to let me know which books were worth buying, and which ones I didn’t even bother to look through in the store. And yes that used to include Spidey titles, because I didn’t realize just how many issues and series were NOT included in the dutch version of Spider-Man.
Posted by SouthAmerica vs. Peter David
I represent a group of comic lovers (23 and rising) from SouthAmerica which will upload all your comic books and novels, in english and spanish, and boycott your work by no buying anything with your name on it until you apologize for the šhìŧ is coming out from your mouth..
Well, isn’t that a cogent and well-reasoned response to PAD’s calm and logical comments.
Enlighten me – if you’re not gonna buy the comics, where are you gonna get them to upload them? Physically steal them?
Posted by: Jason M. Bryant at March 1, 2009 12:33 AM
The strange thing about the internet is that mostly it’s the people with strong opinions who actually post anything. No matter how many people are in the middle, every topic seems like it only involves people with extreme opinions.
That’s not strange, it’s inevitable.
Larry Niven wrote several speculative essays about the theory and practice of teleportation, one aspect of which was that if we had cheap ‘phone booth’ teleportation, then suddenly everybody lives next door to everybody else… The girl who dumped you, the boss who fired you, the jock who made your teen years a living hëll, the ardent fan who’s stalking you… You can’t move away from any of these people.
The internet is the same with words. Anyone can put pretty much anything they want in your mailbox, at zero cost and with minimal consequences.
The ones who post, the ones who keep posting, are the ones with an interest in a subject, the ones with knowledge of a subject, the ones who are passionate about a subject, and, the inevitable small percentage at the far end of the bell curve, those who are – for want of a better term – “emotionally overinvested” in a subject.
Certainly there are days when I wish that some people on the internet would just Grow The F*** Up, but I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Cheers.
[I]I went from s_d to the frickin’ comic shop for the hard copy. Period. If that’s so inconceivable to people or to Mr. David, then I guess there’s nothing else to say about that.[/I]
It’s not inconceivable. I’m sure it happens, just as it happens people will read half the book and decide not to buy it. I’m sure in some cases it gets people to buy a comic and in some cases it won’t.
But it is ILLEGAL. And that’s about as simple as it gets.
The agrieved party was the copyright holder, not the people who enjoyed 50% of someone’s work without paying for it.
You can twist and turn it all you want but 50% of anyone’s work is not Fair Use by any stretch of the imagination.
Scans-Daily was going down one way or another for the simple fact that it was promoting illegal activities.
A number of people seem to be using the argument that scans daily cut into the income of Peter David and other creators. I don’t buy it. If anyone wants to steal the latest issue of X-Factor, or whatever, scans_daily was the last place to go. Often poor quality hastily scanned images, incomplete books, everyone going on and on about their own opinions… if you just want to steal the book, it’s (depressingly) easy to go to any one of a number of places primarily devoted to pirating music, and get what you’re looking for there. scans daily wasn’t where you went if you wanted to steal a comic, it’s where you went if you wanted to know what comics you should be getting, to be exposed to books you normally wouldn’t try. I’m sure you’re all sick of hearing it at this point, but it’s true – the number of books I’ve been buying doubled or tripled since I found the place. There’s no way in hëll I’d have given Wonder Woman a try without the superb posts there showing off some of her greatest moments.
A law which cannot be enforced is a dead law. That is as simple as it gets.
1. Scans Daily is not GONE. The account has been suspended pending further investigation and action by the owner, as outlined here.
2. Rare scans have been lost? Really? Who the hëll entrusts valuable data solely to PHOTOBUCKET?
3. There’s a reason that most serious communities end up on their own domains, and it’s not just because their easier to find that way. It’s because it gives control to the community owner(s)… rather than, say, the LiveJournal team.
It’s typical immature wisecracking, and I’ve never heard anyone else call it a “death threat.”
Really.
Here’s a thought: Write a letter to Barack Obama that says, “Barack Obama, I want you to die in a fire.”
Enjoy your stint on the no-fly list and please do give my regards to the Secret Service gentlemen who will be stopping by.
PAD
Jean: Wiki page is fixed. Peter. Best to you and Kathleen.
Luigi Novi: Well, it was vandalized at least once after you posted here, Jean, for a total of three times today. I’m not sure if your post was meant literally or as an ironic, sarcastic indication that you were the one who did this, but in any event, the article is protected now from new and unregistered users. Best to you too. 🙂
Ah well, I’m so glad I edited it back to what it was originally before the morons got hold of it now 🙂
PAD, do yourself a favour, ignore the idiots who are trashing you unfairly, go back to your desk and do what your real fans love, write some more good stuff 🙂
Hi, Peter. Long time reader, first time commenting, blah blah blah…
I have to say, I’m absolutely stunned. The sense of entitlement and straight-up selfishness shown by the most extreme members of the fan community today is utterly mind-boggling, and I say that as a hopeful writer who always likes to keep his hand on the pulse of writer/fan communication. I’ve always known that all fan groups (ALL fan groups) have their whiny crybabies who need to grow up, and that’s what I’m trying to remember: there are millions of people not visibly reacting, not saying anything, because, well, what is there to say? It’s a clear example of copyright violation. THAT. IS. ILLEGAL. I’m sorry to spell this out like I’m talking to toddlers, but for some people this isn’t getting through. I just don’t see the argument here. When you get away with something for a long time, and then finally get caught, you don’t blame the law, and you don’t blame the one who blew the whistle. You blame yourself, for thinking you could get away with it a million times, instead of only getting away with it a hundred. I have heard many impassioned responses from people stating that the S_D community was how they increased their pull list, found out about obscure titles, and I understand. Now reality has come crashing into it, and they are disappointed. I understand that, too. What I don’t understand is reserving the right to get angry with people who are enforcing (or informing those who are enforcing) something that is…let me check…yeah, THE LAW. You don’t like it? Complain about the principles behind it (though I have no problem with them), don’t complain that people have the nerve to try to get others to obey it, because it is A LAW.
If you’re boycotting Peter’s books now, well, I think that’s an immature and juvenile response, but hey, do what you want. It’s just a shame that you’re going to frame this reaction to anyone who asks (you know, if anyone ever does) that’s it’s because “Peter is a bad man who took our community and ratted on his fans and kicks puppies” rather than “Peter tried to protect intellectual property, and for some reason, I have no respect for people who do that.” Take some personal responsibility, people, please, or is that a foreign concept?
Haro: I have anticipated your post, sir John Seavey, having heard this very argument in the past. I will respond with my default reply to the ‘if it wasn’t him, it would have been someone else’ argument. “Man, that cancer patient only had a month to live anyway. Why are you so upset at the guy that accidentally ran him over yesterday?” The fact it would have happened eventually anyway doesn’t erase how events happened and where responsibility lies.
Cute. I like how by making it a cancer patient means they have NO responsibility for their condition. Nice deflection, there, but it makes the analogy so flawed it’s meaningless. The case here is actually more like lying on the railroad track for hours on end, and instead of the 4:05 taking you out, the 3:23 does instead. You can play the martyr card if you want, but I ain’t buying it, and I honestly wonder if anyone actually is.
I represent a group of comic lovers (23 and rising) from SouthAmerica which will upload all your comic books and novels, in english and spanish…
Really? Because according to the S_D crowd, all that will do is triple his sales among people who are terrified of comic shops and bookstores.
I consider myself a very casual participant since the only exposure I had before the civil war event was my small collection of comic cards and the 90’s Xmen and spiderman show. This changed when I came across some scans that caught my eye and then I found some comic torrents which led me to go to barnes and nobles to check out what they had there. From there I bought Sandman/Preacher, checked a few more comics online, finally came across CBR, signed up for Marvel’s digital comics for a year and started reading tons of stuff there, bought more trades.
As much as people want to blame pirated stuff, for many its the only exposure they would have gotten in the first place since Marvel as a business (actually most of the comic industry) are just bad. Lately they have done some very smart moves but they obviously have alot left to be taken as serious. Take their online offering, it was a great idea but it was very poorly carried out since they have nothing new and the program they use sucks.
Just because someone gets spoiled for one or two issues online from scans doesn’t mean they won’t buy the next issue in the series or check out other work from the same writer. If anything they should write it all down as an expense to viral marketing. Without that outlet you won’t be attracting that many new readers since comics are relegated to small, hidden corners that no one is willing to go in search for. Comic book stores are to few and small to even be noticed sometimes unless you go to NYC’s 2 floor store.
As I see it the whole industry needs more exposure. Instead of the pg-13 kid movies the whole industry needs to shift to bring in more teens/adults. Hëll give away Sandman and Preacher comics by the thousands to college kids.
Anyways good luck anyways
I fear that my attempts to express support for PAD will do as much good as tossing a single sandbag at a tsunami. Nevertheless, he clearly doesn’t deserve what he’s getting and I feel compelled to speak up on principle, if nothing else.
All of the rationalizations being offered in defense of Scans Daily can be boiled down to this: some people out there believe that they’re entitled to something simply because they want it. If they disagree with copyright laws, they feel entitled to ignore them. If they don’t like the comic-book stores in their area, or if they prefer the convenience of the internet, they feel entitled to browse illegally reproduced content.
Unfortunately, the idea that one is entitled to whatever one wants is not true, it has never been true, and it will never be true. Whoever holds the copyright for a piece of intellectual property has the sole right to determine when, where, and how it will be reproduced. They’re under no obligation to satisfy the whims of every potential consumer. Period, paragraph, end of story.
Those of you who are going so far as to insult and/or threaten PAD are acting very much like my five-year-old niece. When she doesn’t get what she wants, she throws a tantrum. If I’m the one keeping her from getting what she wants, she tells me she hates me. Your behavior is no different.
Peter David did nothing wrong. He informed Marvel Comics that its copyrights were being violated. Nothing more. Nothing less. His actions were legally, ethically, and morally correct. If you’re upset about Scans Daily’s demise, perhaps you should take it up with Photobucket. Or Live Journal. Or — most appropriately — with the fans who were violating copyright law.
As a parting thought: I refuse to accept the idea that telling someone to “DIAF” is no big deal. It’s a horrible thing to say, and only a truly horrible person would say it.
A law which cannot be enforced is a dead law. That is as simple as it gets.
Well, Scans Daily got shut down, so it obviously isn’t impossible to enforce the law. Difficult, maybe. But not impossible.
And, you know, there are other reasons besides fear of reprisal to respect the rights of others. Like, for example, having a single shred of common decency.
Good on you PAD. You obviously didn’t do anything wrong. From what it sounds like the closing of S_D (which i hadn’t heard of till today either)would have happened eventually. Love your work and will continue to love it and I doubt anything will ever change that.
Considering that I’m Belgian, and that up to Civil War I mostly bought my
Spider-Man comics in the dutch format. Which basically means that they mostly
published Amazing, with only a few additions of the other comics
That changes little, if anything. If you were reading Amazing, you
would have been aware of FNSM’s impending launch, as that launch was begun with
a crossover to the other two titles. Likewise, I believe that, following
said crossover, the letters pages of each Spider-Man book had blurbs teasing
upcoming issues of the other two titles. Yet you claim you would not have even
known about FNSM’s existence were it not for s_d.
Why, because Scans Daily was more than a bunch of scans. It was about
discussions, jokes, and talking with other fans about comics we loved, hated, or
mostly never knew about.
You are aware that discussions, jokes and talking with other fans about
comics you loved, hated or mostly never knew about can occur without
potential copyright violation, correct?
And I still say I rather want Peter David on Amazing, rather than the no
talent hacks that are currently ruining Spider-Man.
Would you believe…I agree with you?
Somehow, I’ve been able to reach that conclusion, despite knowing about s_d
for less than 24 hours (all of which follow its no longer being available).
Everything…absolutely everything in your post that you say was beneficial
about s_d has been and can be accomplished without potential copyright
violation. Suggesting that these conversations can’t be held without scans
ranging from a single panel to a significant portion of an issue is a lot like
how my son talks, with a tremendous amount of hand gesturing. He can
certainly carry on conversations and impart the same information without
"talking with his hands," but it’s an ingrained habit for him.
–Daryl
One of the most fascinating things about this discussion is the way that we see two sides who absolutely refuse to entertain the other’s point-of-view. It seems to me that the reason that this comment thread is approaching four hundred comments is that, in fact, both sides have a point.
(I don’t have a personal stake in this discussion, either– like most comic book fans online, I was aware that Scans Daily existed, but it wasn’t a place I visited more than once or twice).
When Peter David points out that some of the people at Scans Daily had a ridiculously liberal understanding of how much work constitutes “fair use,” and may very well have been breaking the law, he makes an important point– no one has the “right” to free entertainment. And if some people at Scans Daily were in the habit of posting the most important 11 pages of a 22 page comic book… well, they needed to be stopped.
At the same time, though, I haven’t read too many Scans Daily supporters arguing “Yes, we absolutely have a right to free comic books!” In fact, that sentiment is only expressed by supporters of Mr. David/ critics of Scans Daily– as in, “I can’t believe the sense of entitlement these people are displaying– don’t they realize that some people depend on comic book sales for their livelihood?”
This is a straw man argument, and the people making it are arguing in bad faith, if you ask me. What the Scans Daily people are saying is that this was a community that meant a lot to them, and that the community introduced them to comics they’d never read before. I find this easy to believe, and I can understand their anger at seeing a community they like so much just disappear.
(That brings up the question of whether or not Mr. David’s complaint to Marvel– a company made up of people who were no doubt aware of Scans Daily’s existence already– had anything to do with the “disappearance.” Mr. David says he doesn’t think it does; others find the timing suspicious; either way, it seems to me in a case like this, you probably give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who wrote the comic books that so delighted you in the first place– you sure as hëll don’t announce your plans to start pirating his entire body of work in order to “get even”; that’s moronic).
In the end, it seems to me that this argument points out a fundamental difference in the way that people view the Internet. On the one hand, you have people (I imagine over the age of 35, in most cases, but I could be wrong) who keep a cautious eye on the “new medium,” concerned (and rightly so) with how this technology might be used to hurt people or damage their livelihoods– I think these people tend to view the Internet as a useful tool, something that supplements more traditional modes of communication. Then, you have other (sgain, I’m guessing younger) people, who have come to view the web as their primary mode of communication– for these people, social networking sites and online community forums have (almost) always been there, and the friends they’ve made in these places are as “real” as the friends who comprised the comic book club that used to meet after school when I was in the 7th grade. So they use this forum to discuss and share comics, just as we did back in the 7th grade– not in an attempt to get stuff for free or screw creators, but because, you know, discussing and sharing comics is one of the joys of this hobby. And this is the medium they use for discussion.
I think, in the end, Gail Simone is right– that a sensible compromise can be reached. But it probably won’t happen until people on both sides stop saying, “It’s just this simple” and following that statement with a reductive argument that doesn’t really acknowledge the ethical and artistic complexities that arise when people start using new technology to communicate with each other.
Ultimately, you all realize, this is utterly useless. Whether someone approves of Peter’s actions or not, Scans Daily is dead, and while it may mostly come back in some form or other, the fact that Scans Daily as it once was is dead is an unchangeable fact. So excoriating anyone…be it Peter, or Photobucket, or LiveJournal, or God for picking on you personally…isn’t going to bring it back.
And, while I agree with everyone else who has taken Peter’s side in this…and who have tried to point out that what the rogue posters on Scans Daily were doing was illegal and Not Right…I have to say that trying to address that with the nay-sayers and whiners and insult-throwers is also useless.
The controversy of posting complete (or mostly complete) scanned comics on the Internet has been covered on virtually EVERY comics-related website that I’m aware of, and has been for at least a year. I am hard-pressed to see how anyone can discover a site that posts comics scans without also being aware of the fact that, unless the comics in question are within public domain, it is illegal and a violation of copyright. I’ll even go so far as to say that in order to claim you were not aware of it, you would have to have deliberately stuck your head in the sand.
So, having said that, it seems clear to me that the people who are most up in arms about Scans Daily’s demise are people who a.) are fully aware that the posting of complete or semi-complete comics that aren’t public domain is illegal and Not Right and b.) have decided that they don’t care, as long as it means they get to read comics for free. Repeatedly pointing out that this is wrong isn’t going to faze those people. They’ve already decided that they’re okay with it, and dámņ the laws or any sense of what’s fair to the publishers and creators.