UPDATED 3/1, 9:43 PM–A request to the hit and runners. By that I mean the people who swing by for the express purpose of hurling blame, invoking Gail Simone, calling me names and departing. You might want to consider taking the time to read the thread. Read it in its entirety, read the most recent posts, whatever. The chances are you will already see your comments responded to (since the H&Rs are pretty much all saying the same thing) by myself, various fans, and Gail. Honestly, I don’t expect this message to have much impact on the H&Rs, but I figure it’s worth a shot.
Did you ever hear of Scans Daily?
I had not.
Kathleen informs me that it began as a site on Live Journal where individual scenes from comic books were put up and commented upon. Apparently, this included certain panels from “Young Justice” to which homoerotic subtext was ascribed. It’s a shame I never had a chance to see those. That would have been funny.
But somewhere along the way, it morphed into posters giving page by page summaries of new comics, complete with the entire pages. Writing a critical review and posting up a panel or a page to illustrate a point falls under fair use. Posting over half the book while saying, “This happened, then this happened, then this happened,” is not remotely fair use and a blatant copyright violation.
On an “X-Factor #40” thread on CBR, someone put a link to it. This put it on my radar, and–I suspect–on other people’s radar as well.
Conscientious people have reported to me when they see flagrant copyright violations of my work (typically entire Star Trek novels being posted online). So I did the same thing, informing Marvel of the scans.
Did Marvel then shut them down? No. Because before Marvel legal had an opportunity to do anything, the scans had already been removed for being a violation of terms of service of Photobucket, the site that enabled the posters to put up pictures on line. Perhaps the CBR links put the site on PB’s radar as well as mine.
I did, however, use my wife’s Live Journal account to make my presence known. A fan asked if I had informed Marvel about the scans. An honest question. I replied honestly. I said yes, I had, but that the scans were pulled before Marvel took any action.
Two days later, Scans Daily was shut down completely. Purely a guess: Photobucket complained to Live Journal and LJ said, “Enough’s enough.”
The reaction on the blogosphere? Peter David got Scans Daily shut down.
Well…no. Again: My intervention wound up having no impact. And besides, if anyone got Scans Daily shut down, it was the fans themselves. Some will own up to that reality. Many, I suspect, won’t.
PAD
• 
Geoff, what part of “posting entire issues of comic books without the permission of the copyright holder is illegal” do you not comprehend? What part of “Peter did not shut down the site” do you dispute? Peter–and others here–have made their position quite clear: He did not shut down the site, and even if he had, it doesn’t matter how much you liked that site or how much “worth” you attribute to it. If you don’t want to get your site shut down, don’t break the law.
Why is it that whenever there’s a discussion involving copyright law or copyright violation, people like you show up and don’t merely whine about you not getting your free stuff, but fail, time and again, to respond directly to these points when they are made plain to you? Are you saying that violating someone’s copyright is justified by the “worth” you felt in that community? I’m sorry, but it’s not. And you can always go and start up a new site like that, but without the entire issues of someone else’s material posted there. If you can refute these points, why not do so?
Seems pretty straight-forward to me. A website was posting copyrighted material (under certain terms, for certain reasons, et cetera et cetera yes I’m sure it’s the only reason you ever bought any comics at all), with a policy that allowed copyright holders to complain and have their material removed.
They hosted this website on a service notorious for shutting down entire sites instead of allowing the site owners to remove copyrighted material, as is their policy.
A copyright holder complained, and before the site owner could remove the copyrighted material, the service shut the website down.
The moral seems to be, “Make sure your webhost understands what you’re doing and is sympathetic, otherwise your site will be shut down before you get the chance to remove the offending material yourself.”
Thus endeth the lesson.
Steve said:
“I visit thirty odd comic blogs a day (some of them twice) and frequently check in at CBR and Newsarama. I have never once been to Scans Daily so someone’s claim to have not visited much or ever has validity in my eyes.”
D00D, that’s, like, 4-5 hours a day. That’s, like, too much time on one thing. Diversify.
And I took no issue with those postings. On the other hand, postings that said, “FÙÇK YOU, PETER DAVID! DIE IN A FIRE!”? Not exactly sticking to the topic of the comic.
I too have been told to die in a fire by idiots on s_d – these are the same mouth-breathers that the mods had to regularly beat with clubs and whose posts they had to delete. I am sorry Peter has to deal with these áššhølëš now. The fact that these morons exist is a sad reality in comics fandom.
The moral seems to be, “Make sure your webhost understands what you’re doing and is sympathetic, otherwise your site will be shut down before you get the chance to remove the offending material yourself.”
Thus endeth the lesson.
Got any to recommend? Every one I’ve ever used has been equally as useless.
Seriously? A promotional push from Marvel, including launching it with a ginormous crossover and a ton of variant covers didn’t do the trick? PAD himself mentioning it here kept you in the dark? It took a site like Scans_daily for you to be aware that one of the largest comics publishers in the country was launching a new title featuring their flagship character?
Well, yes. Western comics publishing’s big flaw, for many years, has been an inability to reach female readers. I won’t link you, but I bet The Google will point you in many promising directions. A ‘promotional push from Marvel’ and ‘alternative covers’ aren’t going to reach most women. LiveJournal, for better and worse, is mostly composed of women, and women who are ‘fannishly’ inclined. A site like scans-daily was a perfect place for women to get ‘hooked in.’ It was female friendly and welcoming in a way that most comics spaces are not considered to be.
So shutting down scans-daily, while it may well have been legally and morally right, was still shutting off one of the best ways to reach the female audience– who are the primary bookbuyers in this country, and who mainstream publishers like Marvel and DC have been trying to reach for years. (I realize comics sales have continued to slide regardless, but I think it’s ridiculous to try to point to any one factor; if anything, I’d think the growth of BitTorrent would be a higher factor.)
(Full disclosure: I never spent much time on S-D and was never a member. I came here by following links because one of my friends was affected; she mostly buys European comics. I have had friends who loved Young Justice, but I can’t remember where they heard about it.)
A number of people seem to say there a lot of comics they wouldn’t have bought without checking out a couple of pages of them on Scans Daily. Do none of these people actually visit comic book stores? I mean, I understand that there are people out there that have to mail order because there aren’t any stores nearby, but really, for the rest of them, just whatever happened to the classic quick thumb-through? I use that technique on a weekly basis.
To Alan: There’s pørņ to. Does that count?
BTW, thank you to the few nutcases left here. I’ve been so entertained I haven’t remembered to turn on my TV for hours!
Hi, longtime reader and member of s_d. We will never know whether your complaint was the proximate cause of s_d being shut down, but I think that overlooks what is significant, which is that you decided to complain knowing it may lead to the community being shut down. You made this choice without bothering to learn anything about the community. S_d never allowed more than half a comic to be posted, and the posts there made me track down many backissues of Young Justice and got me hooked on your current X-Factor run – a subscription at my LCS I have now reconsidred. It is your choice and right to complain about s_d – and it’s my choice not to buy your book.
Although you were in the legal right to be concerned of you work being posted online, it was still a dìçk move.
In a day and age when someone can download a comic book faster than getting dressed to go the comic books store, posting a few pages of a single comic shouldn’t be that bad. I mean… that’s if you don’t want to get metallica about it.
As a writer who is trying to get into the game filled with expert and season players finding any publicity is hard. I’ve found it difficult to get certain people to read my work but through communities like Scans_Daily my work sometimes get noticed. All Scans_daily was a community for advent comic fans to post images of their favourite comics. I remember getting interested in certain comics, including X-Factor when a hilarious panel of Maddrox appeared on the website several months ago.
Now I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to people in Scans_daily actually buy comics instead of those in certain forums who download CBRs of your work. Not to mention it’s easier for a picture to bee shown online then someone goes “Hey remember the 8th panel on page two in issue 23 of X-Factor?”
But alas, you’ve made your choice and you are entitled to it. I understanding protecting your copywrite, but choose your battles wisely… because even people who don’t download understand the backlash that the whole “hunt” for piracy has affected the music industry.
However, do not be concerned that I’m going to throw a hissy fit and say “I’m not getting your work anymore” like some people, I am a fan of yours and I believe you are an excellent writer, but I think your might have misunderstood the purpose of the community where X many fans found out about your work… Because Scans daily isn’t just filled with comic fans but Manga, anime and other fandoms who might have never heard of X-Factor or the late She-Hulk.
Have a good night.
Just adding my two cents in.
I quit comics around when I graduated high school, and didn’t really read or keep up with any of it for quite some time.
And then…I found scans_daily. I found out about, well, all kinds of cool stuff. The final outcome? I’m back reading, buying, and collecting comics, to the tune of about $25-$40 a week. Mostly Marvel stuff, too.
I’m sorry you don’t really understand the Internet and how it works, Mr. David. I’m not a regular buyer of the various X books, but I’ll make sure to avoid your books in the future.
Needless to say, the only reason I knew about X-Factor? Scans_daily. The only reason I knew what a comic book death was in the first place? Scans_daily. The only reason I knew how astonishing and awesome that character choice was? Scans_daily.
“Needless to say?”
Man…reading all these posts from Scans_daily members, I’m really beginning to wonder how, in the past 35 or so years of reading comics, I’ve ever decided to pick up any of the comics I’ve ever read, given that I’d never heard of Scans_daily until today.
–Daryl
Aw, Peter, I wish you hadn’t even mentioned this. You just put up a big target for yourself. I never read scans daily and, frankly, don’t care. If they really were posting whole comics of yours then good riddance. If not then someone there was doing something to piss someone off.
I’m no innocent when it comes to piracy (who on the internet is?) and I’m a firm believer that copyright laws in the US are far too restricting but I know I wouldn’t like it if someone was posting material I had made somewhere without my permission. You did the right thing, Peter. I doubt you’ll lose many sales because of this. It’s the Internet, after all, and the “communities” here are very small but very loud and your true fans were already buying your stuff anyway.
Jeremy:
A lot of comic shops don’t let you read through the comics. None of mine ever have, and I’ve lived in three states. I suppose it’s to keep them from getting bent or ripped or grody from multiple hands.
So shutting down scans-daily, while it may well have been legally and morally right, was still shutting off one of the best ways to reach the female audience– who are the primary bookbuyers in this country, and who mainstream publishers like Marvel and DC have been trying to reach for years.
Let me see if I understand. You’re saying it was legally and morally right.
Legally. And morally. Right.
And there’s some sort of “but” after that? The site’s actions were wrong by the only two definitions of wrongness that we have as human beings, and yet I was in the wrong to point out indisputable copyright violation because females were going to see it? Because women can’t…what? Go to a comic book store? Go to a website? Manga is thriving in bookstores; are you seriously suggesting that that’s entirely due to Scans Daily?
I mean, it’s fine that you are willing to decide on Marvel and DC’s behalf that such sites should be allowed to persist because women see them, but–and I’m not a spokesman, I’m just a grunt–I have to guess that Marvel and DC’s lawyers would respectfully disagree. And as much as everyone seems to be concerned with what they believe is this superb method of marketing comics, I again am going to go out on a limb and say that Marvel and DC’s marketing departments are going to say, “Thanks for the help, but we’d just as soon market our books in a way that doesn’t dilute our copyright and trademark.”
Oh…and by the way…again…legally and morally right or not…I didn’t shut down Scans.
which is that you decided to complain knowing it may lead to the community being shut down.
Okay, now we’re really reaching. How the hëll would I know that? What, now I’m Kreskin? Nostradamus? What I “decided” to do was not complain but instead say to Marvel, “Hey, I think this is a copyright violation.” If Marvel had said, “Nah, don’t worry about it,” that would have been that. And no, I had zero idea that it would cause LJ to shut it down. In fact–and I hate to throw water on the witch hunt–but we STILL don’t know that for sure. I figured if Marvel complained, they would take down the copyright-infringement, and that would be that. Just as we’ve seen any number of times on various showbiz sites where, where once there were trailers, there were instead signs that said, “Trailer removed by order of copyright holder.” But no one shut down the entire site. So yeah, it literally never occurred to me that Scans in its entirety would be shut down.
Ponder, if you will, the bizarreness: SD defenders are not disputing the right of SD to violate copyright. They’re not disputing the right of LJ to shut it down. They are ONLY blaming me. Go figure.
And to all of the people who are being supportive here, just because I’m not responding individually–but rather am addressing the attackers–do not think for a moment that I don’t appreciate your kind and reasoned words. This is just one of those times where I’m left shaking my head going, “I know I was in the right,” and it’s good to know that at least a goodly percentage of people can see that.
PAD
Jeremy:
A lot of comic shops don’t let you read through the comics. None of mine ever have, and I’ve lived in three states. I suppose it’s to keep them from getting bent or ripped or grody from multiple hands.
Granted, most stores aren’t going to allow anyone and everyone to read a book cover-to-cover without buying it. (The ol’ “This ain’t a liberry!” thing.) Personally, though, I’ve only ever encountered one store in who-knows-how-many across half a dozen or so states that (to my knowledge anyway) didn’t allow a casual browse of an issue to see if it caught the reader’s fancy. The store in question bagged and boarded all of the books as soon as they arrived. For all I know, they had no problem with letting someone flip through a book if they were asked. I never asked because, not being my “main” store, it served as a backup, if you will, in the event my regular store was out of something I already knew I wanted to get, and I was just too darned impatient to wait for them to track a copy down.
Assuming (yeah, I know…) for a moment that they didn’t allow such browsing, then it’s definitely worth noting that they’ve long-since closed down.
–Daryl
I’m sorry you don’t really understand the Internet and how it works, Mr. David. I’m not a regular buyer of the various X books, but I’ll make sure to avoid your books in the future.
I understand how the internet works, having participated on it since 1986. Twenty-three years of dealing with internet šhìŧ storms? Yeah, I’m pretty up to speed. I’m sorry you don’t seem to understand how the real world works. Meantime, I will try to live with the knowledge that you will make sure not to buy the books that you weren’t buying.
PAD
Nytwyng, notice the words ‘the stores they frequent.’ These female readers may well start out not reading comics– or Western comics at all. They don’t have a local store they frequent. They go to Borders, which has a little spinaround rack which has Archie and the Buffy comics and Hulk and a bunch of other vaguely familiar titles (this is what my Borders has). If there is a comics store in their area, they may find it unfriendly to women, for a variety of reasons– back when I was buying comics regularly, I had a lot of experiences, from my wonderful local guy who nodded at me like I was any other customer to the guys who looked like a strange alien species had just walked in the door.
So no, they’re not a reader interested in superhero comics or Spider-man comics in particular. But they may well be interested in Spider-man if they take a closer look. Scans-daily was a place where people could take a closer look and be introduced to things they normally wouldn’t think of themselves as being interested in– notice the manga reader above and the person who got into Tintin comics thanks to s-d.
If you want to expand your readership, you have to expand your reach. I never said the women were ‘neglected;’ I would speculate that they’re being poorly marketed to.
I just now heard of SD…must be cause I BUY MY COMIC BOOKS IN A COMIC SHOP LIKE YOUR SUPPOSED TOO!!!!!!!!!!! Idiots……I’m glad something that illegal got shut down and would hope Marvel/DC/Image/Diamond/whomever is in the comic biz keeps after them. And PAD, you’ve got my promise to keep buying your books….you know, the ones I can actually touch, lol.
If you want to expand your readership, you have to expand your reach. I never said the women were ‘neglected;’ I would speculate that they’re being poorly marketed to.
And once you’re the head of legal or marketing (or both) for Marvel or DC, you can present your case. In the meantime, the respective departments of those companies–and again, I’m only guessing, but it seems a reasoned guess–do not concur. How that leaves ME holding the internet douche bag, I’m not quite sure, but c’est la vie.
PAD
Do we all love comics here? Of course. The problem is, I think what some people are failing to realize is that Batman doesn’t just get up in the morning and decide to fight crime… writers and artists create these stories, there are laws which govern their use. Even if we’re going back to the marketability aspect, any halfway competent lawyer wouldn’t have a problem demonstrating that revelation of plot can easily damage sales in a serialized, often action-based medium.
Forgive me if I’m being condescending, but it’s difficult not to be, since there are some very basic things that angry people seem to have trouble grasping after 250+ posts.
Mr. David, given the attitudes of the people who’ve disagreed with you, you probably should take credit for Scans_Daily shutting down- it seems to me like a mercy killing.
I think what some people are failing to realize is that Batman doesn’t just get up in the morning and decide to fight crime… writers and artists create these stories, and there are laws which govern their use. Even if we’re going back to the marketability aspect, any halfway competent lawyer wouldn’t have a problem demonstrating that revelation of plot can easily damage sales in a serialized, often action-based medium.
Forgive me if I’m being condescending, but it’s difficult not to be, since there are some very basic things that angry people seem to have trouble grasping after 250+ posts.
Emma: “Needless to say, the only reason I knew about X-Factor? Scans_daily. The only reason I knew what a comic book death was in the first place? Scans_daily. The only reason I knew how astonishing and awesome that character choice was? Scans_daily.
I didn’t care about comics even a little before scans_daily, and yours was one of the first comics it hooked me on. I’m sorry it’s gone, and I’m sorry you don’t understand its value.”
Okay, I’m not calling you a liar and I’m not going to say that you and several other people who have posted in this thread are making stuff up, but stories like these are stretching credibility to an amazingly thin degree.
A number of people here and on a few other comic boards have flat said or at least strongly implied that they only knew about so and so comic or writer’s work because of SD in order to make the point of how great the site was for the comic book creator’s bottom line and how horrible it was of PAD to “kill” the site. I’m sorry, but that just stretches credibility to an ridicules degree.
Do you really think it sounds reasonable to most people to say that you didn’t find a book on the racks in a book store, through a Google search or even by going to Marvel’s own site to get some more information on characters that you saw on TV and liked, but rather found out about it on a relativity obscure forum? Do you really think it sounds reasonable to people who are old enough to have been comic book fans and who found out about new comics and new titles before the internet?
I could almost, almost, buy these stories if you were talking about Peter’s Fallen Angel or some obscure title like a Leonard and Larry collection like Domesticity Isn’t Pretty (hey, I have lots of gay friends and the book is funny as hëll) that was put out by a very small publisher. But people are saying that they only found out about books that are published by the two biggest comic book publisher in America and, in some cases, featuring characters that are some of the most crossovered and market saturated books in comics. X-Factor, while not having what some regard as the A-List mutants at Marvel in it, is a part of the mutant line.
And Spider-Man was mentioned by someone?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously… Spider-Man? Someone out there thinks that we all just fell off the turnip truck and are going to believe that a book that became major movie franchise with promotion out the backside was discovered only by SD? Please…
amelia_daz: “I am sorry Peter has to deal with these áššhølëš now. The fact that these morons exist is a sad reality in comics fandom.”
Heh, that’s nothing. Go find a copy of Harlan Ellison’s Xenogenesis essay sometime.
I’d something directly to Geoff Sebesta, Persia, Dan Hetrick and others as individuals, but I’d just end up repeating myself in every post. Here’s one blanket statement.
You’re either idiots or you think everyone else is. You wouldn’t.couldn’t find major titles from the biggest publishers in the country without an obscure website? Right…
Guys, I was a teenager in the 80’s. I was a teen/early twenty something in the 90’s. We had no internet, my comic book information was limited to Comic Buyer’s Guide, Comic Shop News and Comic’s Scene Magazine with Wizard coming along later, my “discussion groups” were limited to school, friends, letter columns in CBG, the phone and snail mail and, to top it off, most of my comic book collecting teen years involved the closest comic book shop being two-and-a-half hours away and then, when a new one opened near me, one hour away. Somehow I still managed to find out about new books, obscure books and really cool independent books. Amazingly, I was even able to find enough information to follow my favorite creators when they went from book to book or from company to company.
And I certainly found, through previews, my own looking or word of mouth from friends and fellow fans, some good books that weren’t the typical spandex mainstream stuff. And all without Scans Daily. And you know what else? Comic sales were higher back then as well.
And here we are today with more comics being made into successful movies than back then, more shops (around me at least) than I ever saw back then, more book stores carrying off the wall independent stuff, more major magazines covering comic books, more comic book periodicals and more ways to look up and research just about anything via Google than I could have ever done 20 years ago and you’re trying to sell the idea that SD was THE gateway for new readers to find new books or comics in general or to find out about obscure books like Spider-Man and that its loss will basically destroy the industry.
Does the phrase “overly dramatic, whiny, hyperbole” mean anything to any of you?
_________________________________
Queen Anthai,
Hiccups or is it just really cold at your place tonight?
How that leaves ME holding the internet douche bag, I’m not quite sure, but c’est la vie.
I was actually trying very hard to not call anyone, you included, any names, and talk about a larger issue. But c’est la vie, I suppose.
I’m not going to weigh in any opinion of Mr David as I’m sure many have expressed my sentiments much more (and less) eloquently already, but I will defend scans_daily to the hilt as I don’t think any one outside of the community realise how important this com was to it’s readers. This place was more akin to a book club where familiar faces would share their enthusiasm and delight with friends, reviewing and critiquing the experience in the mist of a good many laughs.
It was also one of the few comic book sites I felt comfortable in as a female, sure we might not be comic’s chosen demograph, but we exist and you further alienate us when it appears as though you condemn the one place a majority congregate at.
I’ve been a comic book fan since I can remember and scans_daily really helped me embrace an otherwise unnerving fandom, without it I doubt I’ll be following discussions on comics with as much vigor.
For those arguing about the level of illegal activity scans_daily committed and going by nothing more than your assumption of what it was about, we were not pirate bay, we we’re not z-cult and we sure as hëll only ever wished to support the medium. I have no proof to my claim any longer except for the odd dead pages from archives, but to see for yourself how fierce our crimes were heres a tiny taste of what we were http://web.archive.org/web/20060822213049/http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/.
I’m not going to weigh in any opinion of Mr David as I’m sure many have expressed my sentiments much more (and less) eloquently already, but I will defend scans_daily to the hilt as I don’t think any one outside of the community realise how important this com was to it’s readers. This place was more akin to a book club where familiar faces would share their enthusiasm and delight with friends, reviewing and critiquing the experience in the mist of a good many laughs.
It was also one of the few comic book sites I felt comfortable in as a female, sure we might not be comic’s chosen demograph, but we exist and you further alienate us when it appears as though you condemn the one place a majority congregate at.
I’ve been a comic book fan since I can remember and scans_daily really helped me embrace an otherwise unnerving fandom, without it I doubt I’ll be following discussions on comics with as much vigor.
For those arguing about the level of illegal activity scans_daily committed and going by nothing more than your assumption of what it was about, we were not pirate bay, we we’re not z-cult and we sure as hëll only ever wished to support the medium. I have no proof to my claim any longer except for the odd dead pages from archives, but to see for yourself how fierce our crimes were heres a tiny taste of what we were http://web.archive.org/web/20060822213049/http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/.
Do we all love comics here? Of course. The problem is, I think what some people are failing to realize is that Batman doesn’t just get up in the morning and decide to fight crime… writers and artists create these stories, there are laws which govern their use.
I get the relevance of the part about “there are laws which govern their use…” but the beginning part about the artists and writers creating the stories is a little silly as a criticism of S_D. As other have explained (maybe both sides have difficulty even with 250 posts), it’s not a pirate site. It’s a site that posts parts of comics (too big a part being the problem) and has detailed discussions about the writing and art and the whole history of writers and artists getting Batman out of bed in the morning to fight crime.
I respect the opinion that the scans on S_D are illegal and rightfully taken down, but the idea that it can actually get people to buy comics rather than give them reasons not to buy them isn’t crazy talk. Not even all comic book creators have the same opinion on it.
I have a feeling that some of the new people here didn’t read any of the posts, not even PAD’s original post that started the thread. They just came here, complained, and then left.
To people like Persia who stuck around and contributed to the conversation, thank you. Even if we disagree, I appreciate that you were willing to participate.
For those of you who are still angry, I have a hypothetical. Let’s say that PAD had done exactly what he did, but Literotica hadn’t shut down Scans Daily. Say that instead of Photobucket pulling the scans, Marvel had had a chance to ask for them to be taken down and Scans Daily had obliged.
Would you be this mad then? The exact same actions on PAD’s part, a measured response from Marvel (which is most likely what they would have done), but Literotica behaved differently. Would you still have this much anger towards PAD?
If not, then I ask that you re-evaluate who you’re angry with.
I’m sorry, can somebody fill me in on when Peter or anybody here referred to scans_daily as a “pirate site”? I seem to have missed that one.
Yeah, so, to all the “GO TO THE COMICS STORE” comments – how many comics are in a store? I don’t know about you, but the store I frequent doesn’t take kindly to me (even though I buy a great deal of comics any given trip in) browsing through multiple books on a regular basis to see if I like them. They apparently have this notion that they are not, in fact, a library. Go figure.
I’ve never heard Photobucket ever do anything for copyright issues.
Actually, they apparently do, although it might take a bit to get their attention.
There’s a game application on Facebook that recent caused an uproar in the Deviant Art community after a number of artists noticed the app was using art without permission.
Photobucket was contacted and the account of the application creator shut down.
Less than half of a comic? Does qualify for fair use.
Well, it’s good to see that people who used this site are the ones that get to define what is fair use and what isn’t.
Considering that comics are all of like 22 pages of content, I’d have to think that even more than a page or two (2 pages would be 10%) would be pìššìņg all over fair use.
If a particular set of scans is troublesome, I believe asking the SD mods would have solved the problem.
Well, you can’t tell me that this was the first instance where posted images would be viewed as problematic. The fact that the site was shut down gives me the impression that nobody really cared, and so the writing was on the wall, but people refused to admit it.
Go DIAF and take all your šhìŧŧÿ comics with you.
Or you and all the rest of your lemming friends can go find a cliff, because you’re all a bunch of morons.
Man, the internet is filled with stupid people. And they’ve certainly come out of the woodwork today, haven’t they?
sistermagpie: I respect the opinion that the scans on S_D are illegal and rightfully taken down, but the idea that it can actually get people to buy comics rather than give them reasons not to buy them isn’t crazy talk. Not even all comic book creators have the same opinion on it.
But that’s the whole point of the law, sistermagpie. If the copyright owner wants to let Scans Daily put up half of his comic, he has the right to allow that. He also has the right refuse. Whether you agree with him or not, you have to respect the opinion of the copyright holder.
It’s like having a friend who lets you borrow his hat. It’s nice that he does that. However, the fact that he lets you borrow his hat doesn’t mean that you can just *take* someone else’s hat without asking. Even if he’s not using the hat, it’s still his right to loan it or not.
This seems obvious when we’re talking about a physical object, but people tend to forget it when talking about stuff on the internet. Just because it’s possible that Scans Daily turns some people on to comics, doesn’t mean that they should be allowed to post pages without permission. That’s up to the copyright owner of each individual title, regardless of the opinions of the other copyright owners.
Nytwyng, notice the words ‘the stores they frequent.’ These female readers
may well start out not reading comics– or Western comics at all
While we’re at it, Persia, let’s also notice
the particular words of the example that I initially commented upon:
The context of this statement – that the individual in question was familiar
with the other Spider-Man titles and, after learning of and sampling FNSM,
preferred it to them – would seem to indicate not only an existing comics
reader, but an existing Spider-Man reader. Thus, it would appear that
someone who was already reading the two extant Spider-Man titles is asking us to
believe that she was unaware that the publisher of those two series starring
their flagship character was launching a third series starring the same
character with a storyline that was going to cross over into the two titles she
was already reading.
Would you believe me if I told you that, after seeing the CSI second season
finale that introduced Horatio Caine and company, and CBS carpet-bombing their
airwaves with ads for the spin-off, that I was unaware there was going to be a
show called CSI: Miami until I stumbled across it on YouTube?
There’s also a logical disconnect that you bring up here…that "These female
readers may well start out not reading comics– or Western comics at all
." So…they have no interest in comics…yet they’re seeking out an
online community that is dedicated to comics. That just plain doesn’t make
sense. I have no interest in, say, Westerns. Does it make more sense
that I would or would not seek out online communities about Westerns?
They don’t have a local store they frequent. They go to Borders, which has
a little spinaround rack which has Archie and the Buffy comics and Hulk and a
bunch of other vaguely familiar titles (this is what my Borders has). {snippage}
If I may ask…when you go into this same Borders, how do you determine
whether or not you’re interested in a particular novel? Are you only aware
of those which you’ve seen significant portions posted in an online discussion
group without author and/or publisher authorization, and thus only purchase
those novels? Or, does a cover or title catch your eye, so you read the
jacket description, maybe flip through the book and decide that way?
(By the way, that Borders may or may not have a lousy selection of monthly
comics, I won’t argue on that. I believe it’s up to the individual stores
to determine which specific monthly titles they’ll stock. But, every
Borders and Barnes & Noble I’ve been in has a pretty sizable selection of trade
paperbacks/graphic novels, which can be perused just the same as any other book
in the store.)
–Daryl
I was actually trying very hard to not call anyone, you included, any names, and talk about a larger issue. But c’est la vie, I suppose.
Yes, I know you weren’t, and I do appreciate that. I wasn’t attempting to imply that you were; I was engaging in what I fancied was a bit of clever word play. If that one didn’t work for you, don’t worry; I’m sure an even lousier pun of mine will be along soon.
PAD
Sigh. More “drive-by” complaints and accusations, clearlyu whipped up by someone intending a flame-war, since they seem to keep having the same misinformation: “PAD got pissy about criticism! PAD claims that giving spoilers is copyright infringement!” etc. And they’re clearly “Drive by” because a lot of them come after several dozen posts refuting all these “facts” and the posters clearly made no attempt to read the previous discussions.
Anyone else find it amusingly ironic that the attacks by these “comic readers” have done precious little actual READING in this thread?
Man, the internet is filled with stupid people. And they’ve certainly come out of the woodwork today, haven’t they?
The woodwork, the floor, the walls, the ceiling. It’s starting to be like that scene in “Aliens” where they’re watching the dots approaching them on the motion sensor. “They’re all over the place, man!”
PAD
“Scans Daily was shut down.”
And nothing of value was lost.
I’m sorry, can somebody fill me in on when Peter or anybody here referred to scans_daily as a “pirate site”? I seem to have missed that one.
I was using the term to mean a site that was for people to get something for free rather than buy it.
But that’s the whole point of the law, sistermagpie. If the copyright owner wants to let Scans Daily put up half of his comic, he has the right to allow that. He also has the right refuse. Whether you agree with him or not, you have to respect the opinion of the copyright holder.
Yes, I get that that’s the whole point of the copyright issue and why it was taken down. I wasn’t arguing that. I was just responding to comments where people seem to not believe that the site could encourage people to buy comics as well.
Whether or not it encourages people to buy comics doesn’t make it not a copyright violation. Being a copyright violation also doesn’t not mean it can’t encourage people to buy comics. I was not using the idea that it can make people buy comics to say that therefore it was legal/not infringement. Or saying that other comics creators feeling the site was a good thing for their marketing made it not a copyright violation.
I was really just addressing this side issue where a lot of posters seem to completely not believe anybody’s experience of buying comics because of S_D because it doesn’t fit with their own experience.
Yeah, so, to all the "GO TO THE COMICS STORE" comments – how many comics
are in a store? I don’t know about you, but the store I frequent doesn’t take
kindly to me (even though I buy a great deal of comics any given trip in)
browsing through multiple books on a regular basis to see if I like them. They
apparently have this notion that they are not, in fact, a library. Go figure.
Your store has a problem with you briefly flipping through a book that you’ve
never read before to see if it catches your fancy enough for them to make more
money from you? That’s very short-sighted of them…that few seconds you
flip through the book could turn into a recurring monthly sale for them. I
can certainly understand a store frowning upon potential customers reading a
book from cover-to-cover, but we’re talking about two different things
here…reading and browsing. As I mentioned to Queen Anthai upthread,
across several states, in enough stores that I’ve lost count, I’ve only ever
encountered one store that even appeared to have a problem with customers
browsing books, and that one went under. Even the store I dislike the most
has no problem with browsing. Have I just have incredible luck when it
comes to comic stores? Well…that would go a long way towards explaining
my luck with the lottery and in Vegas…all my good karma’s seriously
misdirected.
Listen…I understand that money can be tight. I’m currently "on the
beach" myself, and am fortunate enough to frequent a store that’s holding onto a
few months’ worth of books for me until I’ve got the cashflow to come get them.
But let’s take a worst-case scenario: suppose you flip through a book, it
grabs you enough to buy it, you get home and…wow…what a stinker.
Y’know what? It happens. We’ve all seen a movie – in a theater or on
home video – that wasn’t worth the price we paid to see it. Not only does
it happen in a situation like that, but comics are one of the few mediums in
which we do have the opportunity to take that flip through to any given
point of the content to see if it grabs us enough to buy it.
–Daryl
The strange thing about the internet is that mostly it’s the people with strong opinions who actually post anything. No matter how many people are in the middle, every topic seems like it only involves people with extreme opinions.
I’m willing to bet that some people heard PAD was responsible, came here, read his initial post, and left feeling a little less angry. They didn’t get caught up in the discussion because once they read that PAD didn’t actually do anything to shut down Scans Daily, they didn’t feel the need to contribute.
I have no idea if 3 people did that or 3000, but I think this thread was worth the effort.
Wow, it’s impressive how many members of/fans of Scans Daily seem to have absolutely enormous egos. They loudly proclaim that they’ll never buy another PAD book as if this’ll end his career and send him into the gutter. They talk about S-D as if it was the only place to find any information about comics online, as though its loss has caused irreperable harm to all comics, and as though whatever was put up there was perfectly fine, unless it did break the law in which case what’s the big deal, huh? (My apologies to thise S-D folks who have been civilized and intelligent here; but trolls are always more visible (and loud) than polite folks.)
PAD didn’t do anything wrong. He didn’t shut down the site, he didn’t have a vendetta, he didn’t act out of hatred or greed. He *did* inform some copyright owners of possible infringement, and they acted to protect their copyright, which led the S-D folks to respond accordingly. That’s definitely legal and probably moral. Deal with it.
Hi,
I’m on Kath’s blog and read about this. (I’m one of the many fans you met at NY Comic con) I’m sorry that your time has to be spent on idiots like this. I had this idea when an author, Carrie Jones lost an election, to try and make her feel better, to do something nice for them.
So I told Kath I’d donate some time at a charity I work at in your honor. It’s a small, quiet way to make a positive experience out of a negative one.
You do good work. Work worth paying for. That’s why you protected the copyright of your products, which is your right. And anyone who wants to threaten to boycott your books because you refuse to allow the world to steal from you, most likely wasn’t buying your work in the first place.
I’ll post to Kath when I finish my volunteering time.
Best wishes!
I’d be in awe of any man who really could do šhìŧ like that…
You should stick around, Steve. I think you’ll fit in with this crowd just fine. 😀
I’m sorry it’s gone, and I’m sorry you don’t understand its value.
I’m sorry you have completely failed to understand the situation.
The closing of Scans_Daily has probably closed the second biggest marketing resource Marvel (and DC and Image and …) had.
Really? The second biggest marketing resource? I think you’re over inflating that site’s importance.
I’ve been a comics reader all my life. I read any number of sites for comic news, including CBR and Newsarama.
I’d never heard of scans_daily. Nope, not really that important in the overall scheme of things.
You made this choice without bothering to learn anything about the community
Although you were in the legal right to be concerned of you work being posted online, it was still a dìçk move.
I’m sorry you don’t really understand the Internet and how it works, Mr. David.
Ahh, three more idiots who obviously have no concept of what it is to be a creator who’s work needs to be protected.
Can some of you do the rest of the interwebs a favor and cancel your internet service? I’m afraid that the rest of us are going to become infected with your complete and total idiocy if you don’t.
I just wanted to weigh in on the whole issue of ‘Is It Peter’s Fault Or Isn’t It’. I’m someone who is normally almost completely out of touch with the comics community; Scans_Daily was pretty much the only direct interaction I had with it, and even that was only occasional. I’m sad to see it go, but I’m not inclined to make a big hubbub about it. Far more learned people than I are already doing so.
However, PAD… I hate to break this to you, but there’s a fair chance that you may actually, yes, be at least indirectly responsible for S_D’s death.
Now hear me out, here, please.
Livejournal’s staff are notoriously… reactionary. They will take even the slightest problem as an excuse to suspend swaths of journals and communities. There have been tremendous uproars in the past over this tendency. It’s happened more than once.
It’s entirely possible – I would even say probable – that when Marvel Legal took a look at S_D, and went to complain to Livejournal, Livejournal simply took it as reason to outright suspend the community. That seems to be their default response: Not ‘delete the post’, not ‘hide it and warn the community or journal owner’, but ‘suspend the account’. They tend to take a “Nuke it from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure” approach.
So looking at the situation? I’d say that’s the most probable way it went. You informed Marvel of the copyright vio, Marvel complained to LJ, LJ nuked S_D.
sistermagpie: I was really just addressing this side issue where a lot of posters seem to completely not believe anybody’s experience of buying comics because of S_D because it doesn’t fit with their own experience.
It’s probably a mix. Some of the stories of not having any chance to find out about a Spidey comic except through Scans Daily seem a little fishy. Some of the stories are probably true. I think a few people are pushing their point a little on both sides of that issue.
But the real problem with the “free publicity” argument is that it’s unprovable how much of a help it is. I’m absolutely sure that at least once, at least one person read a comic on the internet, then went to the store and bought it even though he wouldn’t have otherwise. I’m *also* absolutely sure that at least once, at least one person has read a comic from beginning to end on the internet without actually buying it, even though he would have bought it if he hadn’t been able to read it on the internet.
So how often does each thing happen? Nobody knows. The people who read a book online and don’t buy it are not generally going to volunteer that information as eagerly as the ones who do buy it. So there’s no way to actually prove that the “free publicity” helps more than it hurts.
Which is why it’s not a good argument. It’s something that *might* be true, not something that a copyright holder can actually look at and use to evaluate whether it is worth it or not.
Which is why it’s not a good argument. It’s something that *might* be true, not something that a copyright holder can actually look at and use to evaluate whether it is worth it or not.
Absolutely–how would they even do it? Different creators have different reactions to the comm based on what they see there. I wouldn’t think my saying I’ve bought books because of S_D–even if I’m telling the truth–should change any creator’s views on the commm.
It’s entirely possible – I would even say probable – that when Marvel Legal took a look at S_D,
I thought Marvel Legal didn’t do anything. They didn’t have time. He just alerted Marvel Legal to the existance of the comm and what they were posting of Marvel copyright.
The fact that PAD was on S_D not long before it was TOS’d doesn’t mean the two events are even related at all.
sistermagpie: Yes, the particular violation he informed Marvel’s legal team about was already down. But that doesn’t stop the legal team from looking at the community, seeing other Marvel comics that have been posted, and deciding to get on their high horse about that.
Now, I don’t know a whole lot about Marvel’s legal team, but corporate legal teams in general tend to be a bit zealous themselves. I’m not saying that PAD had any malicious intent here. Far from it. But his contacting Marvel Legal may have prompted them to take a hard look at S_D, go “you know what, we don’t like this,” and complain to LJ.
I began reading your X-Factor because of its presence on scans_daily. You wouldn’t believe the adulation for Layla and Jamie.
Anyway, I’m going to stop reading the book now. You don’t want me as a reader, apparently.
Addendum, probably should have used the word “bought” instead of “read”. I bought the book as singles from Brainstorm Comics in Maryland.
No one believes you, Petey. Your threat should have read ‘I will claim to boycott PAD books but I will still be buying them. I will just be pretending online to know nothing of their contents’
Wow. What part of the copyright law is unclear? Does no one understand how fragile the comic book industry is today in terms of sales? I find it quite possible print comics may almost cease to exist in the next 10 years due to an inability to make money. Publishing in general is a fragile business.
I don’t get why people are so up in arms for PAD doing what is the right thing to do — not just for himself or even Marvel Comics, but really, for the industry.
But then again, how is this any different than sharing music ripped from CDs and distributed for free on the internet. At its root, it comes down to the same thing.
Iowa Jim