And I include George Lucas in that question. Because if so, how did the following exchange get through, as seen in the promos for the next episode:
ANAKIN: I lost R2-D2.
OBI-WAN: Well, R2 units are a dime a dozen…
A little free advice to the writers over there: If you MUST use cliches, try to avoid cliches that don’t make sense in the universe your stories are set in, considering a dime is a unit of currency in the United States. In the Star Wars universe, the only denomination used is “credits.”
Pay attention, people. Don’t make me come over there.
PAD
• 
Needless to say, I think that Anakin’s fall was also poorly handled (although I did like the idea that the Jedi were blind to love).
In order for Anakin’s fall to be believable, it would have to happen by degrees. It’s understandable that he would be frustrated by the rules against him living a normal live, by the restrictions imposed upon him by the Jedi Order. But that in itself shouldn’t have been enough to make him turn Sith, it should have been–at most–enough to make him consider leaving the Order.
I can’t think of what a good way to do it would be, but I know that what was done in the third movie didn’t work. Anakin suddenly cared about one thing and one thing only: keeping his wife alive at any cost. That makes a character who should be three-dimensional into one who is two-dimensional.
…but isn’t the point of the whole saga that love redeemed Vader, that Luke’s ties to his family and friends were the source of his strength?
That’s how I always understood it, and that’s what makes it such a good story. I remember after seeing ROTJ when I was six years old (yes, I was born the same year that the first movie was released), my mother told me it showed how love could overcome anything. To this day, I think that’s a great message.
But in the prequels, the message is reversed. Love ends up leading to obsession, which leads to desperation, which leads to Sith-dom in Anakin’s particular case.
So it seems to me–although I may very well be missing something here–that while the basic message of ROTJ was “love=good”, the basic message of ROTS was “love=BAD…if you are a Jedi.”
I like the “love=good” message a lot more. There never seemed to be any part in the prequels where it was implied that the Jedi were wrong to deny Anakin the right to date and get marrie, or where it was implied that maybe if they had given him more freedom he would have been happier and less likely to turn dark.
Letting Anakin burn without either saving him or killing him was a bad ending to a bad character arc. I disagree with Connor that here is any way to excuse that scene — it was bad characterization and bad for the story. Anakin did not pose a threat. Letting him suffer extensive burns and not killing a manwho becomes one of the worst people in the galaxy would reflect really badly on Batman, it makes Obi-Wan look terrible.
*wild fûçkìņg applause!!!*
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Additionally…YES.
“I had this picture built up of what Luke’s pop was like based on those words and based on how Vader acted in ROTJ. I also had an idea that his friendship with Obi-Wan was kind of like his friendship with Luke. Anakin didn’t measure up, and Obi-Wan was never a friend to him. Obi-Wan was more like the angry boss that you hate working for but whose crap you must perpetually take in order to stay employed.”
I agree completely.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fell victim to some poor decisions by Lucas, especially in the first movie. by having the lead be a child, and by making Obi-Wan play the role of Robin to the much cooler Qui-Gon’s Batman, he retarded both their relationship and individual character development. Then he seperated them in the 2nd movie and had Anakin acting like an idiot most of the time. so by the third movie it was too late for both of them even if it was better written. The sad thing is, like you say Rob, the few words uttered by the characters in the old movies evoked a very strong image of the people in the prequels.
Oh, and Owen was mishandled too. Leia gave her son to the son of somebody her mother in law was married too for 5 minutes and who she met for 2 minutes. What happened, her uncle’s 2nd cousin’s roommate was not available?
“After the slaughter of the younglings I can’t really blame Obi for walking away…though as it turned out it would be an act he would have to regret for the rest of his life, for so many reasons.”
It’s understandable but not very consistent, and it reflects too badly on Obi-Wan. He was never establilshed as a bad ášš.
“But I dislike the lava battle even on the visual grounds. This is the battle we had been waiting literally decades for…and it didn’t live up to the expectation. Maybe it couldn’t have…but considering how cool the Qui Gon/Maul fight was, I think Lucas had it in him to pull it off. he simply gave in to his apparently unstoppable urge to make it Bigger! Bigger! Bigger! And we ended up with a 3 ring circus of rising lava and exploding stuff and floating flotsam and acrobatics…just give me two guys I care about dueling on the edge of a volcano with some good John Williams music and I would have been as happy as a pig in mud.”
Well, Qui-gon and Maul were two of the better conceived characters in the trilogy. But aside from that I think, after LOTR Lucas had a case of lave river envy. He wanted to show that his lava river was bigger than Peter Jackson’s.
“Yeah, that’s true…maybe he thought at that moment of anger he (Palpatine) could possess him. Which makes you wonder–was Anakin possessed? Min-controlled by Magneto? What?”
I sometimes imagine what wouold have happened if Luke killed Vader. I imagine him falling on his knees in front of Palpatine like a marionette who’s strings were cut. But it is not that he looses control of his will power as much as relinquishes it. I like to think that Darth Maul and Darth Vader hated Palpatiine and wanted to kill him, but could not summon the will power. Maybe that’s one reason Vader wanted Luke to help him kill Palpatine? But of course this is only my interpretation.
“Here’s another thought; we’re supposed to feel bad about the fall of the Republic but it’s not much of a loss except when one considers what followed. It’s an unwieldy, bureaucratic theocracy. “
I don’t know if they enforced their religion. But I agree that there was an unexplored theme of the Old Republic being flawed. But I think part of the Republic’s decay was the Jedi’s impotence.
“
“I had this picture built up of what Luke’s pop was like based on those words and based on how Vader acted in ROTJ. I also had an idea that his friendship with Obi-Wan was kind of like his friendship with Luke. Anakin didn’t measure up, and Obi-Wan was never a friend to him. Obi-Wan was more like the angry boss that you hate working for but whose crap you must perpetually take in order to stay employed.”
I agree completely.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fell victim to some poor decisions by Lucas, especially in the first movie. by having the lead be a child, and by making Obi-Wan play the role of Robin to the much cooler Qui-Gon’s Batman, he retarded both their relationship and individual character development. Then he seperated them in the 2nd movie and had Anakin acting like an idiot most of the time. so by the third movie it was too late for both of them even if it was better written. The sad thing is, like you say Rob, the few words uttered by the characters in the old movies evoked a very strong image of the people in the prequels.
Oh, and Owen was mishandled too. Leia gave her son to the son of somebody her mother in law was married too for 5 minutes and who she met for 2 minutes. What happened, her uncle’s 2nd cousin’s roommate was not available?
“After the slaughter of the younglings I can’t really blame Obi for walking away…though as it turned out it would be an act he would have to regret for the rest of his life, for so many reasons.”
It’s understandable but not very consistent, and it reflects too badly on Obi-Wan. He was never establilshed as a bad ášš.
“But I dislike the lava battle even on the visual grounds. This is the battle we had been waiting literally decades for…and it didn’t live up to the expectation. Maybe it couldn’t have…but considering how cool the Qui Gon/Maul fight was, I think Lucas had it in him to pull it off. he simply gave in to his apparently unstoppable urge to make it Bigger! Bigger! Bigger! And we ended up with a 3 ring circus of rising lava and exploding stuff and floating flotsam and acrobatics…just give me two guys I care about dueling on the edge of a volcano with some good John Williams music and I would have been as happy as a pig in mud.”
Well, Qui-gon and Maul were two of the better conceived characters in the trilogy. But aside from that I think, after LOTR Lucas had a case of lave river envy. He wanted to show that his lava river was bigger than Peter Jackson’s.
“Yeah, that’s true…maybe he thought at that moment of anger he (Palpatine) could possess him. Which makes you wonder–was Anakin possessed? Min-controlled by Magneto? What?”
I sometimes imagine what wouold have happened if Luke killed Vader. I imagine him falling on his knees in front of Palpatine like a marionette who’s strings were cut. But it is not that he looses control of his will power as much as relinquishes it. I like to think that Darth Maul and Darth Vader hated Palpatiine and wanted to kill him, but could not summon the will power. Maybe that’s one reason Vader wanted Luke to help him kill Palpatine? But of course this is only my interpretation.
“Here’s another thought; we’re supposed to feel bad about the fall of the Republic but it’s not much of a loss except when one considers what followed. It’s an unwieldy, bureaucratic theocracy. “
I don’t know if they enforced their religion. But I agree that there was an unexplored theme of the Old Republic being flawed. But I think part of the Republic’s decay was the Jedi’s impotence.
“
“In order for Anakin’s fall to be believable, it would have to happen by degrees. “
Yes.
“I can’t think of what a good way to do it would be,”
Several ideas:
1) Starting the characterization of Anakin in Phantom Menace — and not only by having Yoda say that he is afraid, but by actually showing him to have a dark streak, and/or a defiant streak. The boy we saw in the movie had no dark side. He had to grow one in the 2nd movie.
2) Ep. 1.5 — maybe it would have been better if there was a movie depicting Anakin training and growing up, getting wedgies froom the other Padwan’s, learning to be a Jedi.
3) Shift the act involving Anakin’s mother’s kidnapping and death to the beginning of the movie and have Anakin and Obi-Wan be the one’s who try to save her and fail. This would have set the tone for the whole movie and established a resentment for Obi-Wan and the Jedi order, instead of having it be just an event.
4) Just better dialogue and acting would have better establilshed what Anakin was going threw.
5) Have the Jedi find out about his clandestine marriage and require him to choose between her and the order. That way the marriage would have mattered more.
6) The reasons for the fall were laid a little too thick. He was angry because they didn’t make him a master, and he was having bad dreams about Padme’s death, and the sith had the only cure, and the Jedi were insensitive, and all this was happening in a third of the movie, and Obi-wan forgot to feed his goldfish. It’s not completely bad, but somehow it didn’t work. Maybe if they were cleaned up and connected better to the overall story.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
On a related topic, will Cowboy Pete be Rounding Up SMALLVILLE anytime soon? This season has been awesome so far.
Am I the only nerd on Earth that has an absolute lack of interest in both “Stars” (Wars and Trek)?
Yes
Yes
Yes
I don’t have time to explain this as properly as it needs, but here goes.
I don’t think Obi-Wan particularly comes off bad in the lava scene. He is just doing what Jedi do. In fact, the whole prequel series shows the flaws in the Jedi way. For instance, the Jedi don’t allow love or attachment, but it is love and his friends that help Luke to win.
I’ll explain my views on the lava scene. Jedi do not murder. They act in defense only. It is a very tricky fine line. Take the Mace Windu/Palpatine fight. Mace was in the wrong according to the Jedi code to attempt to strike down Palpatine. Why? Because, as far as he knew, he was unarmed. In order for Mace to kill Palpatine, once he was disarmed, Mace would have to “go to the dark side.” Now, we might consider it justice to execute Palpatine, but that is not the Jedi way. Anakin, in a sense, saves Mace as a good Jedi, while at the same time dooming him.
Which brings us to Obi-Wan and Anakin at the lava. While Anakin is attacking him, Obi-Wan can defend. He warns Anakin not to try the maneuver because he knows the outcome. He disarms Anakin completely by dismembering him. Now, Obi-Wan is in a moral dilemma. We might find it justice or mercy to kill Anakin, but the Jedi do not kill an unarmed opponent. Basically, to paraphrase Batman in Batman Begins, Obi-Wan doesn’t have to save him either. Obi-Wan assumes that the fire will consume Anakin, and he can’t bear to watch, so he leaves. That may not have been what he wanted to do, or what he should have done (depending on your own judgment), but that was the Jedi way. The films show that the Jedi way was seriously flawed, but Obi-Wan is consistently shown to be a consummate Jedi, sometimes to his detriment. So I don’t think the lava scene is bad writing at all. In fact, I find it an intriguing character scene with moral ambiguity. Star Wars is not nearly the black-and-white, good-guy-vs.-bad-guy story that it has often been made out to be.
” fact, the whole prequel series shows the flaws in the Jedi way. For instance, the Jedi don’t allow love or attachment, but it is love and his friends that help Luke to win.”
This was one of the better parts of the prequels. I liked it too.
But I don’t think it applies to what happened in the lava battle. If the Jedi way is to leave a person to slowly burn to death rather than save him and bring him to justice, then the Jedi are as bad as the Sith. Worse, considering the evil Palpatine came and saved Anakin (which also doesn’t make much sense as far as the character is concerned). Moreover, it was stupid, since it left behind alive a dangerous enemy who went on to do much evil for the next 20 years.
But this is neither the Jedi way, as it was portrayed in prequels, nor is it their flaw. They were rigid, they were insensitive, they were arrogant, but needlessly cruel… that was not one of their flaws, or at least such law was not established during the movies. Nor was it a flaw of Obi-Wan’s personality as it was established in the movies. Had he beeen establlished for 5 movies to be an exceptionally cold or bad ášš character, then we might have an easier time accepting that action. Although I think even if a dark character like Batman did something like that we would have considered it extreme. Moreover, if we consider that Mace Wyndu was coming close to the dark side just by contemplating killing Palpatine, then the Obi-Wan we saw in Episode IV should have been carrying a red lightsaber (good idea for a what if story).
Furthermore, Lucas could have acheived exactly the same consequences by having Anakin fall into a pit and Obi-Wan thinking him dead. (Although I think it would have been better to have a scenario in which Obi-Wan’s mercy, his belief that Anakin can be saved results in Anakin continuing to terrorize the galaxy for a generation. That way his attitude toward Luke’s attempt, as well as Vader’s words to Luke would have fitted in better).
In any case, I feel it was part of the sloppy writing that has plagued the whole prequel trilogy. It’s very frustrating for me, because for each disappointing turn Lucas took I see several great possibilities that were just there, in his story, that he could have followed. But to each his own. This is just my opinion.
” fact, the whole prequel series shows the flaws in the Jedi way. For instance, the Jedi don’t allow love or attachment, but it is love and his friends that help Luke to win.”
This was one of the better parts of the prequels. I liked it too.
But I don’t think it applies to what happened in the lava battle. If the Jedi way is to leave a person to slowly burn to death rather than save him and bring him to justice, then the Jedi are as bad as the Sith. Worse, considering the evil Palpatine came and saved Anakin (which also doesn’t make much sense as far as the character is concerned). Moreover, it was stupid, since it left behind alive a dangerous enemy who went on to do much evil for the next 20 years.
But this is neither the Jedi way, as it was portrayed in prequels, nor is it their flaw. They were rigid, they were insensitive, they were arrogant, but needlessly cruel… that was not one of their flaws, or at least such law was not established during the movies. Nor was it a flaw of Obi-Wan’s personality as it was established in the movies. Had he beeen establlished for 5 movies to be an exceptionally cold or bad ášš character, then we might have an easier time accepting that action. Although I think even if a dark character like Batman did something like that we would have considered it extreme. Moreover, if we consider that Mace Wyndu was coming close to the dark side just by contemplating killing Palpatine, then the Obi-Wan we saw in Episode IV should have been carrying a red lightsaber (good idea for a what if story).
Furthermore, Lucas could have acheived exactly the same consequences by having Anakin fall into a pit and Obi-Wan thinking him dead. (Although I think it would have been better to have a scenario in which Obi-Wan’s mercy, his belief that Anakin can be saved results in Anakin continuing to terrorize the galaxy for a generation. That way his attitude toward Luke’s attempt, as well as Vader’s words to Luke would have fitted in better).
In any case, I feel it was part of the sloppy writing that has plagued the whole prequel trilogy. It’s very frustrating for me, because for each disappointing turn Lucas took I see several great possibilities that were just there, in his story, that he could have followed. But to each his own. This is just my opinion.
Star Wars has pretty much sucked since Return of the Jedi. This series will have legs because it appeals to the kiddies who would have no clue about the problems of sloppy dialogue. The show is simply a vehicle for merchandising, and a well-run one at that.
I liked Return of the Jedi.
Also it is possible to make movies that appeal to kids and to adults. There was one guy who did just that about 30 years ago. His name was George Lucas.
Still, Phantom Menace could have been a decent straight to video adventure movie. But the prequels had set out to tell a story that was more sophisticated than the original trilogy. But that’s harder to write than a movie that’s just a vehicle for special effects.
I liked Return of the Jedi.
Also it is possible to make movies that appeal to kids and to adults. There was one guy who did just that about 30 years ago. His name was George Lucas.
Still, Phantom Menace could have been a decent straight to video adventure movie. But the prequels had set out to tell a story that was more sophisticated than the original trilogy. But that’s harder to write than a movie that’s just a vehicle for special effects.
Ducks do have their own entry in the Star Wars databank. It’s sillier than you’d probably expect.
Ducks do have their own entry in the Star Wars databank. It’s sillier than you’d probably expect.
It’s not all Republic Credits in the Star Wars universe. (See Watto from Ep. 1 “Republic credits are no good out here, I need something more real.”) So there COULD be a planet that uses dimes and that saying could have originated from there. Obi-Wan is a rather worldly bloke, he could have picked it up. Han saying “I’ll see you in hëll” was written off in the EU literature as in the “Correllian Hëllš”.
There was a good Penny Arcade comic about the absurdity of Star Wars speak (couldn’t find the comic, but found the quote), with Gabe complaining: “These gøddámņëd Star Wars writers just don’t know when to stop. This jáçkášš just said that something can go “through a ferrocrete bunker like a neutrino through plasma.” I get it, man. It says Star Wars on the cover. I know I’m reading about Star Wars. It’s like, do they not have butter in space? Or hot knives to cut it with?”
It’s not all Republic Credits in the Star Wars universe. (See Watto from Ep. 1 “Republic credits are no good out here, I need something more real.”) So there COULD be a planet that uses dimes and that saying could have originated from there. Obi-Wan is a rather worldly bloke, he could have picked it up. Han saying “I’ll see you in hëll” was written off in the EU literature as in the “Correllian Hëllš”.
There was a good Penny Arcade comic about the absurdity of Star Wars speak (couldn’t find the comic, but found the quote), with Gabe complaining: “These gøddámņëd Star Wars writers just don’t know when to stop. This jáçkášš just said that something can go “through a ferrocrete bunker like a neutrino through plasma.” I get it, man. It says Star Wars on the cover. I know I’m reading about Star Wars. It’s like, do they not have butter in space? Or hot knives to cut it with?”
I thought Ob-Wan was the best character in the prequels. He’s also the most underrated jedi around. The man took out Darth Maul, General Grevious, and Anakin Skywalker all on his own. Anakin only got rid of Dooku and yet he is supposed to be the stronger one.
As for why he left Anakin burning, I thought his speech at the end and his hesitation to fight said it all: he couldn’t kill him. Anakin was like his brother and when it came down to it, he couldn’t bring himself to strike the final blow. As far as he knew, Anakin was dead already and he couldn’t bring himself to watch. It was a moment of weakness that the galaxy had to pay for.
Well Spotted, Pete. Congratulations.
Poor editing at it’s best???
“I thought Ob-Wan was the best character in the prequels. He’s also the most underrated jedi around. The man took out Darth Maul, General Grevious, and Anakin Skywalker all on his own.”
I know I’m in a minority about Obi-wan even among those who didn’t like the prequels. I agree that he was underrated as a Jedi, but I believe it was because his character was not constructed well in the prequels. In Episode 2 he was in the shadow of the much more charismatic Qui-Gon. In Ep. 2-3 he was too often shortchanged (is that the right phrase?) as a character when it came to his interactions with Anakin. He was either cast as avery annoying master, or as exchanging bad banter, or being disabled so Anakin could step in. His best parts were when he was alone without Qui-Gon or Anakin. But even then he wasn’t great, in my opinion, not exceptionally charismatic. But he was pretty cool in these scenes.
My favorite character is Qui-Gon. But in retrospect I think he was a mistake as a character from the point of view of the story, since he stole Obi-Wan’s thunder. It would have been better if the Master Qui-Gon would have been the cautious one and the aapprentice, Obi-Wan, would have been the reckless one insisting against all advice that Anakin be trained.
“Anakin only got rid of Dooku and yet he is supposed to be the stronger one.”
That was part of the problem with Anakin’s character. He was described as the Chosen One, and intellectually we know that this was because he was destined to bring about the fall of the Jedi and the Sith. But in the movies he didn’t exhibit any choseny characteristics, that we usually associate with chosen people (such as Neo in Matrix, Frodo and Aragorn, Paul Atriedes, Barak Obama…). If there was anything unique about him, I didn’t see it. Even his role of traitor was undercut, since he was not the only Jedi (in the movies) to turn to the Dark Side. If there was more than one Judas, nobody would have remembered him so well.
“As for why he left Anakin burning, I thought his speech at the end and his hesitation to fight said it all: he couldn’t kill him.”
I found the speech hollow, because their relationship was not that well established. But I do think it was right that Obi-Wan would hesitate to kill anakin.
“As far as he knew, Anakin was dead already and he couldn’t bring himself to watch. It was a moment of weakness that the galaxy had to pay for.”
My memory is not good enough, but if my memory serves me well, Obi-wan did see that Anakin was alive, especially considering he cut off his legs, not his heart. Under these circumstances he should have dragged Anakin away instead of leaving him to burn. On the other hand, if the intention of the scene was indeed that Obi-Wan thought he was dead, rather than thinking that he was going to die and leaving him, then I think this should have been shown in a clearer and less ambiguous way.
Similarly, the idea that Obi-Wan is callous about droids is interesting, but doesn’t seem to fit what we saw of him. After all, wasn’t he the one who recognized R2’s valor in Phantom Menace?
I found the speech hollow
The entire prequel trilogy was pretty hollow.
I found the speech hollow
The entire prequel trilogy was pretty hollow.
I like the scenario you came up with, Micha. It would have made more sense than what made it to the big screen.
The reasons for the fall were laid a little too thick. He was angry because they didn’t make him a master, and he was having bad dreams about Padme’s death, and the sith had the only cure…
This is something that Anakin should have been smarter about. He didn’t know that Palps could cure Padme, he only had Palpatine’s word. The word of a habitual liar, at that.
What made Anakin think that Palpatine really could cure his wife? Why didn’t Anakin consider the possibility that Palpatine was just making proimses he had no intention (or ability) to keep in order to get Anakin to side with him? Did it never occur to Anakin that if Palpatine was, in fact, lying to him then he would be murdering all of those people for absolutely nothing?
I’m sure Anakin was desperate and that he was believing what he wanted to believe, but that only explains his behaviour up to a point.
Who among us, even if we were distraught over the possibility of losing a loved one, would kill children without hesitation, without reluctance?
Who among us wouldn’t have said to Palpatine, if we were in Anakin’s place, “Isn’t there another way? Please don’t ask me to do this.”
Anakin was killing people, many innocent and some not quite so much, because Palpatine was dangling this carrot in front of him. Or something that looked like a carrot. It might have been a carrot-shaped rock painted orange. If Anakin were smart–and as somebody who was described as a hero in the original trilogy, he ought to be smart–then he would have said to Palpatine: “Prove to me that you’re able to save Padme. Prove to me that you’re willing to, and that you’ll do it when her life is in danger. Prove to me that you aren’t lying to me like you’ve lied to everybody else. If you can prove that, then I’ll serve you.”
I thought Ob-Wan was the best character in the prequels. He’s also the most underrated jedi around. The man took out Darth Maul, General Grevious, and Anakin Skywalker all on his own. Anakin only got rid of Dooku and yet he is supposed to be the stronger one.
There’s more to a character than how many big fights he’s won or how strong he is.
That stood out for me too. I was thinking at the time that if Windu were really going to go against the Jedi code as Anakin said, then he was in no position to demand anybody else follow that code.
As for Kenobi, even if he was technically following the Jedi code by not killing a defenseless enemy, he still left him to die in a pretty horrible way. Code or not, it was far less merciful and thus worse.
If he couldn’t bring himself to kill Anakin, then here’s what he could have done. He could have saved Anakin. He could have lifted him up with the Force and moved him away from the lava flow. He could have put him aboard the ship and taken him to get medical treatment. Afterwards, he and Yoda could have tried talking to him, trying to bring him back. They might have succeeded and they might have failed, but it would cost them nothing to try…
Ducks do have their own entry in the Star Wars databank. It’s sillier than you’d probably expect.
Oh, I expect it’s pretty silly. But maybe it’s even sillier than that, so I’ll go and look. (I think I may have read that entry several years ago, actually…)
I like the scenario you came up with, Micha. It would have made more sense than what made it to the big screen.
The reasons for the fall were laid a little too thick. He was angry because they didn’t make him a master, and he was having bad dreams about Padme’s death, and the sith had the only cure…
This is something that Anakin should have been smarter about. He didn’t know that Palps could cure Padme, he only had Palpatine’s word. The word of a habitual liar, at that.
What made Anakin think that Palpatine really could cure his wife? Why didn’t Anakin consider the possibility that Palpatine was just making proimses he had no intention (or ability) to keep in order to get Anakin to side with him? Did it never occur to Anakin that if Palpatine was, in fact, lying to him then he would be murdering all of those people for absolutely nothing?
I’m sure Anakin was desperate and that he was believing what he wanted to believe, but that only explains his behaviour up to a point.
Who among us, even if we were distraught over the possibility of losing a loved one, would kill children without hesitation, without reluctance?
Who among us wouldn’t have said to Palpatine, if we were in Anakin’s place, “Isn’t there another way? Please don’t ask me to do this.”
Anakin was killing people, many innocent and some not quite so much, because Palpatine was dangling this carrot in front of him. Or something that looked like a carrot. It might have been a carrot-shaped rock painted orange. If Anakin were smart–and as somebody who was described as a hero in the original trilogy, he ought to be smart–then he would have said to Palpatine: “Prove to me that you’re able to save Padme. Prove to me that you’re willing to, and that you’ll do it when her life is in danger. Prove to me that you aren’t lying to me like you’ve lied to everybody else. If you can prove that, then I’ll serve you.”
I thought Ob-Wan was the best character in the prequels. He’s also the most underrated jedi around. The man took out Darth Maul, General Grevious, and Anakin Skywalker all on his own. Anakin only got rid of Dooku and yet he is supposed to be the stronger one.
There’s more to a character than how many big fights he’s won or how strong he is.
That stood out for me too. I was thinking at the time that if Windu were really going to go against the Jedi code as Anakin said, then he was in no position to demand anybody else follow that code.
As for Kenobi, even if he was technically following the Jedi code by not killing a defenseless enemy, he still left him to die in a pretty horrible way. Code or not, it was far less merciful and thus worse.
If he couldn’t bring himself to kill Anakin, then here’s what he could have done. He could have saved Anakin. He could have lifted him up with the Force and moved him away from the lava flow. He could have put him aboard the ship and taken him to get medical treatment. Afterwards, he and Yoda could have tried talking to him, trying to bring him back. They might have succeeded and they might have failed, but it would cost them nothing to try…
Ducks do have their own entry in the Star Wars databank. It’s sillier than you’d probably expect.
Oh, I expect it’s pretty silly. But maybe it’s even sillier than that, so I’ll go and look. (I think I may have read that entry several years ago, actually…)
“This is something that Anakin should have been smarter about. He didn’t know that Palps could cure Padme, he only had Palpatine’s word. The word of a habitual liar, at that.”
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I felt that it was an unnecessary complication that was thrown into the plot in the last minute. On the other hand I think the idea of the Sith seeking immortality had a lot of potential. If this issue has been explored from an earlier stage, it could have been very interesting. A possible contrast could have been made between the Jedi spirits we saw in the originals, and Palpatine’s flirtation with immortality both using cloning and robotics (Vader).
In any case, the promise of immortality was not necessarily a bad idea to tempt Anakin with. A Faustian deal. The problem for me was more with how it was structured into the plot. If it was more gradual, built on better foundations, and better acting, it might have worked.
I think anakin was inclined to believe Palpatine both because of the relationship between them, and their own need. He was also never portrayed as a smart guy. However, the scene was weakened by the way Anakin carried himself during this stage. He found out that Palpatine was sith, went to get Wyndu, and then in the last moment backstabbed him. He casme out looking weak. And the fall of somebody weak is not as dramatic as the fall of somebody great. A better building of Anakin’s character in the previous movies would have probably also helped. In ROTJ the possibility that Luke might fall to the Dark Side seemred more real to me than Anakin’s fall. It was one of the strong parts of that movie.
However, The fact that Anakin killed the younglings should not be judged on the regular considerations of smart/stupid. Anakin has already converted to the Sith. This was a profound change. Possibly supernatural in nature. Even if he somehow tried to rationalize it, the change meant either embracing the cruelty of the Sith or worse, completely submitting his will to Palpatine’s.
Posted by: Rob Brown at November 1, 2008 01:26 PM
“I like the scenario you came up with, Micha. It would have made more sense than what made it to the big screen.”
Thanks. I have to admit that over the years the accumulation of things that I think I would have done differently in the prequels has grown so large that I pretty much have a pretty detailed alternative version of the movies in my mind that is superimposed onto the movies that were actually made. It’s quite silly really, but that’s what happened when you obsess about something long enough. And there are so many other ways to go other than the ones I’ve already considered, so I have more obsession ahead of me. Fortunatly, I’m not spending all my time obsessing about this, although probably more than would be considered healthy.
In the case of the Obi-Wan and Anakin’s final battle, I think the crucial things should have been that Obi-Wan would have entered the battle thinking that Anakin could be saved, and leaving it feeling it was a lost hope; and that Anakin would have left the battle hoping for a rematch.
Posted by: Rob Brown at November 1, 2008 01:26 PM
“I like the scenario you came up with, Micha. It would have made more sense than what made it to the big screen.”
Thanks. I have to admit that over the years the accumulation of things that I think I would have done differently in the prequels has grown so large that I pretty much have a pretty detailed alternative version of the movies in my mind that is superimposed onto the movies that were actually made. It’s quite silly really, but that’s what happened when you obsess about something long enough. And there are so many other ways to go other than the ones I’ve already considered, so I have more obsession ahead of me. Fortunatly, I’m not spending all my time obsessing about this, although probably more than would be considered healthy.
In the case of the Obi-Wan and Anakin’s final battle, I think the crucial things should have been that Obi-Wan would have entered the battle thinking that Anakin could be saved, and leaving it feeling it was a lost hope; and that Anakin would have left the battle hoping for a rematch.
What if Palpatine had revealed that he was actually hundreds of years old, kept alive by hi powers/ It would serve two purposes; convince Anakin that he does indeed have the mojo needed to keep Padame alive and explain why the attack by Mace left him in such bad shape. Mace was sucking the force right out of him, along with its regenerative powers (Why the effect was permanent i don’t know…what am I, a doctor?)
I agree that the world would now be a happier place had Lucas hired Script Doctor Micha.
“I agree that the world would now be a happier place had Lucas hired Script Doctor Micha.”
Yes, It’s shocking that he didn’t ask me to go over the scripts. After all, I’m a complete nobody living at the other side of the world. I don’t know what he was thinking to himself.
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“What if Palpatine had revealed that he was actually hundreds of years old, kept alive by hi powers/ It would serve two purposes; convince Anakin that he does indeed have the mojo needed to keep Padame alive and explain why the attack by Mace left him in such bad shape. Mace was sucking the force right out of him, along with its regenerative powers (Why the effect was permanent i don’t know…what am I, a doctor?)”
Yes, good idea. Maybe he was actually hiding his real age. I don’t know.
Wasn’t it implied somewhere that Palpatine was extending his life artificially using the dark side? And that this was the reason for his bad skin condition? (that and chocolate)
In retrospect, maybe it would have been better to tie somehow Vader’s disfigurement with Palpatine’s, as in: The Surgeon General is warning that using the dark side can lead to bad skin and impotence.
Another direction could have been to make the dark side seductive over a long term.
“Why the effect was permanent i don’t know…what am I, a doctor?)”
The effect, OBVIOUSLY, was permanent because he no longer had to hide his true nature or age from the galaxy now that he had the clone army to squish anyone into a fine pinkish paste who didn’t give him a senior citizen discount.
Or something like that.
“Why the effect was permanent i don’t know…what am I, a doctor?)”
The effect, OBVIOUSLY, was permanent because he no longer had to hide his true nature or age from the galaxy now that he had the clone army to squish anyone into a fine pinkish paste who didn’t give him a senior citizen discount.
Or something like that.
Ah, so the ugly Palpatine was the true visage and the gentle Economics professor image was the fake…sounds good.
“Ah, so the ugly Palpatine was the true visage and the gentle Economics professor image was the fake…sounds good.”
Well, at least he has an academic degree.
I’m not sure if the idea that Palpatine extends his life with the Force is mine or one I heard somewhere. In any case it would be a good contrast to the Jedi spirits. It also probably appeals to you love of the undead.
Another possibility is that the Dark Side has physically corrupting effect on people who use it a lot for a long time. This can account both for Vader’s and Palpatine’s appearance.
I didn’t like the idea that was in the movie that Palpatine was disfigured by his own lightning, since, as far as we know, Jedi lightning burns people rather than turn them ugly. Although I suppose this could be explained too. Perhaps, as you suggest, the attack stripped away Palpatine’s power or the illusion he has covered himself with.
The primary idea I had [it’s easy to change your mind if you keep everything in your mind instead of writing it] was one in which Palpatine and Anakin duel with each other in the Senate (instead of Palpatine and Yoda), and either as they fight they both change as a result of tapping the dark side, or that Palpatine and Anakin both change in the climax of the duel in which Palpatine blasts Anakin with lightning (as he blasted Luke in ROTJ). Palpatine changes by tapping the dark side. Anakin is burned by the lighting and altered when he surrenders to the dark side. The problem with this idea is that it probably to indebted to ROTJ.
In any case I felt that Obi-Wan should have confronted an Anakin who is already in the Vader suit, so he could see first hand that he is more machine than man, as he told Luke.
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On a different note, I had a nightmare that your elections goes into overtime and is not over by Tuesday.
We have our own elections on February. Are options are so bad we’ll take whoever loses happily. We’ll take Palin too.
I’m not sure if the idea that Palpatine extends his life with the Force is mine or one I heard somewhere. In any case it would be a good contrast to the Jedi spirits. It also probably appeals to you love of the undead.
brings up an interesting point–why don’t the Sith live on after death as the Jedi do?
Kind of reinforces the Judeo/Christian parallels. Satan/The Dark Side promises earthly power and riches while God/The Jedi promise rewards in the hereafter (Now why was Qui-Gon the first to figure this out?).
I’m not sure if the idea that Palpatine extends his life with the Force is mine or one I heard somewhere. In any case it would be a good contrast to the Jedi spirits. It also probably appeals to you love of the undead.
brings up an interesting point–why don’t the Sith live on after death as the Jedi do?
Kind of reinforces the Judeo/Christian parallels. Satan/The Dark Side promises earthly power and riches while God/The Jedi promise rewards in the hereafter (Now why was Qui-Gon the first to figure this out?).
Obi-wan only learned he could talk to Qi-Gong in death when Yoda told him at the end of episode 3 he’d started the practice. Sith were not privy.
“Kind of reinforces the Judeo/Christian parallels. Satan/The Dark Side promises earthly power and riches while God/The Jedi promise rewards in the hereafter (Now why was Qui-Gon the first to figure this out?).”
Star Wars made pretty obvious but effective use of the contrast between the spiritual and the material in the original movies. I expected to see the same dichotomy in the new movies. But strangely, in one of his ‘what was Lucas thinking’ decision, Lucas decided to reduce the mysticism and spirituality of the Jedi. Part of this was the strange decision to relegate the Jedi spirits, who played a fairly significant role in the early movies, into an afterthought at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Definitely something I would have done differently.
Although one possible scenario that presents itself from Lucas’s decision could be that the Jedi or the Republic fell because they have become less spiritual. However, if that was his intention, it wasn’t conveyed very well.
“brings up an interesting point–why don’t the Sith live on after death as the Jedi do?”
Back in a New Hope, during the final confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader, Obi-Wan says that in death he would become stronger than Vader could imagine. This suggests that this was something Vader was ignorart of. My impression at he time, was that this was something that Jedi masters like Obi-Wan knew how to do, something that was a well established part of their religion, but which was unknown by the Sith. However, obviously Lucas went for a simpler explanation, that Obi-Wan acquired a previously unknown skill. Although then how did Anakin know how to turn to spirit when he died? Needless to say, I prefer the other option, to think of Jedi Spirit as a major part of Jedi theology that contrasts with the theology of the Sith. But that’s just me.
Back in a New Hope, during the final confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader, Obi-Wan says that in death he would become stronger than Vader could imagine.
yeah, in the same sense that Rex Harrison in The Ghost and Mrs Muir was the most powerful man in the world. Phhht. He can appear transparent and talk to you in an echo voice. So can Uncle Al in every episode of Scoobie Doo.
Now, why didn’t Qui Gon’s body vanish when he died? I seem to recall Lucas saying that would be addressed…but it wasn’t. Or was it?
Back in a New Hope, during the final confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader, Obi-Wan says that in death he would become stronger than Vader could imagine.
yeah, in the same sense that Rex Harrison in The Ghost and Mrs Muir was the most powerful man in the world. Phhht. He can appear transparent and talk to you in an echo voice. So can Uncle Al in every episode of Scoobie Doo.
Now, why didn’t Qui Gon’s body vanish when he died? I seem to recall Lucas saying that would be addressed…but it wasn’t. Or was it?
“Now, why didn’t Qui Gon’s body vanish when he died? I seem to recall Lucas saying that would be addressed…but it wasn’t. Or was it?”
I don’t think his body did vanish. Moreover, Anakin’s mother was buried. I don’t know if there is a reason for that. Maybe it was intended from the beginning to give the ability to turn into spirits to only Obi-Wan, Yhoda and Anakin. Everybody else just died, without vanishing.
It could be argued that if a lot of Jedi could turn into spirits then the movie and the galaxy would have been overpopulated with Jedi spirits. Maybe that’s why he didn’t want to use them in the prequels. However, I think it would have been better to come with an explanation that’s more in line with the spiritual nature of the Jedi. Maybe that the Spirits only appear to people they were close too, and that only the extra powerful can do it. So Luke could see his father, Yoda and Obi-Wan but not Mace Wyndu and Qui-Gon. While Obi-Wan could have seen Qui-Gon and Wyndu too. I could defintely imagine Yoda spending year in Dagobah talking to long dead Jedi masters like Mace Wyndu.
“yeah, in the same sense that Rex Harrison in The Ghost and Mrs Muir was the most powerful man in the world. Phhht. He can appear transparent and talk to you in an echo voice. So can Uncle Al in every episode of Scoobie Doo.”
You underestimated the power of the Force young Mulligan. with this power you can order Jedi trainees around all the time. Luke… turn left… no, right… there’s less traffic there… You can nudhe them all day long, and sound very profound doing it. And you glow in the dark.
This is something I’ve given way too much thought to. Qui Gon’s body didn’t disappear because he wasn’t ready or accepting of his death/transformation into the Force. Yoda and Obi Wan were both ready and accepting, thus there transmutation into energy was much cleaner than Qui Gon, Vaderkin, or any of the other Jedi we see die.
This is something I’ve given way too much thought to. Qui Gon’s body didn’t disappear because he wasn’t ready or accepting of his death/transformation into the Force. Yoda and Obi Wan were both ready and accepting, thus their transmutation into energy was much cleaner than Qui Gon, Vaderkin, or any of the other Jedi we see die.
This is something I’ve given way too much thought to. Qui Gon’s body didn’t disappear because he wasn’t ready or accepting of his death/transformation into the Force. Yoda and Obi Wan were both ready and accepting, thus their transmutation into energy was much cleaner than Qui Gon, Vaderkin, or any of the other Jedi we see die.