And I include George Lucas in that question. Because if so, how did the following exchange get through, as seen in the promos for the next episode:
ANAKIN: I lost R2-D2.
OBI-WAN: Well, R2 units are a dime a dozen…
A little free advice to the writers over there: If you MUST use cliches, try to avoid cliches that don’t make sense in the universe your stories are set in, considering a dime is a unit of currency in the United States. In the Star Wars universe, the only denomination used is “credits.”
Pay attention, people. Don’t make me come over there.
PAD
• 
For those complaining about Han Solo and Hëll, I present to you the No Prize.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos
For those complaining about Han Solo and Hëll, I present to you the No Prize.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos
The “Dime” line is a perfect example of the main flaw with Clone Wars. The writers have confused writing a show aimed at a younger audience with the insulting belief that children can’t think so why should the writers.
The Character of Ahsoka Tano is the biggest example of this. I understand why she was created so that little sisters would have a window to the galaxy far far away but that character already existed with Padme Amidala, Luminara Unduli, Shaak Ti etc.
Setting aside my own feelings about the Jedi Council putting a child…sorry youngling on the frontline of a war, she makes me almost miss Jar Jar. “Artoo-y” and “Skyguy” were not cute the first time she said them and were not cute the 16th time. Plus knowing what happens after Order 66 the character’s arch becomes somewhat limited. Will she fake her own death and hide out along the outer rim? Will she go all Sithy and have to be taken down? Self sacrifice? Place your bets.
But getting back to the whole “writing down” to your audience thing.
In the SWDW movie the clones, Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano are pinned down in a temple with Asajj Ventress and the driod army on their way. The clones all take position and wait. The driods attempt to get the door to the temple to lift ( think the big heavy door/gate from Jabba’s palace from SWROTJ) but the outside door controls are locked/disabled. Asajj slashes the controls with her light saber and the door starts to rise. I heard several children shout “cut the chain cut the chain!” Now the audience has not been shown the mechanics of how the gate is lifted but KIDS were able to figure out something had to lift that big heavy slab and that perhaps the troopers might have some idea of how to prevent it from doing that.
I’ll continue to watch the show. Each episode has in my opinion been slightly better then the last.
The “Dime” line is a perfect example of the main flaw with Clone Wars. The writers have confused writing a show aimed at a younger audience with the insulting belief that children can’t think so why should the writers.
The Character of Ahsoka Tano is the biggest example of this. I understand why she was created so that little sisters would have a window to the galaxy far far away but that character already existed with Padme Amidala, Luminara Unduli, Shaak Ti etc.
Setting aside my own feelings about the Jedi Council putting a child…sorry youngling on the frontline of a war, she makes me almost miss Jar Jar. “Artoo-y” and “Skyguy” were not cute the first time she said them and were not cute the 16th time. Plus knowing what happens after Order 66 the character’s arch becomes somewhat limited. Will she fake her own death and hide out along the outer rim? Will she go all Sithy and have to be taken down? Self sacrifice? Place your bets.
But getting back to the whole “writing down” to your audience thing.
In the SWDW movie the clones, Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano are pinned down in a temple with Asajj Ventress and the driod army on their way. The clones all take position and wait. The driods attempt to get the door to the temple to lift ( think the big heavy door/gate from Jabba’s palace from SWROTJ) but the outside door controls are locked/disabled. Asajj slashes the controls with her light saber and the door starts to rise. I heard several children shout “cut the chain cut the chain!” Now the audience has not been shown the mechanics of how the gate is lifted but KIDS were able to figure out something had to lift that big heavy slab and that perhaps the troopers might have some idea of how to prevent it from doing that.
I’ll continue to watch the show. Each episode has in my opinion been slightly better then the last.
My biggest problem is that way Force works seems to be played down. For examble, in the second episode Anakin couldn’t find Plo Koon (?) and assumed he was dead – would think that he could sense the lifepod in Force?
I think Ahsoka Tano is a great character. I understand from the interviews that her mainfunction is to give Anakin someone to look after, someone Anakin can teach and who would look up to him. Padmé or any adult can’t really do this; and if you even try to do that with an adult female, the feminists will be shouting for murder.
That being said, she seems to have some stereotypical lines that seem to be played purely for the audience, and not for the other characters (eg. in the third episode “Your master is quite extraordinary person!” (or something to this effect, I forget, to which Ahsoka opens her eyes wide and says (in very high pitch, OOC voice) “He SURE is!”). It’s stereotypical, and I don’t think kids really enjoy it.
Also; droids mentioning they have a “bad feeling” about something.
Well, in Glut’s defense, he’s trying to convey an image to an earth-bound audience that hadn’t seen the film yet. It’s not as if one of the characters said it.
Duly noted. Noted most duly. I still wish the book had been better written. (I’d really liked Matt Stover’s Revenge of the Sith novelization, which I’d read the year before.)
Well, in Glut’s defense, he’s trying to convey an image to an earth-bound audience that hadn’t seen the film yet. It’s not as if one of the characters said it.
Duly noted. Noted most duly. I still wish the book had been better written. (I’d really liked Matt Stover’s Revenge of the Sith novelization, which I’d read the year before.)
I was just about to cite Revenge of the Sith as a much better example of a Star Wars novelization. Curses, foiled again.
But it’s amazing how much better than the movie it is, even without Chewbacca.
I’m curious as to why this particular cliche prompted such a response, Peter. SW has never been realistic, as it has humans in another galaxy speaking English (at least apparently), and IIRC, it referred to such people as “humans” in one of the live-action prequel films. And that’s to say nothing of how often we see such terracentric things among various alien races in Star Trek.
I’m curious as to why this particular cliche prompted such a response, Peter. SW has never been realistic, as it has humans in another galaxy speaking English (at least apparently), and IIRC, it referred to such people as “humans” in one of the live-action prequel films. And that’s to say nothing of how often we see such terracentric things among various alien races in Star Trek.
I think the problem with “dozen” gets more technical than dimes–while a dime is a strict Americanism, a dozen has more of a worldwide understanding, but is it universal? Considering humans generally stick to counting by units of ten, counting by twelve is rather unusual. And in a galaxy far, far away with thousands of species coming from thousands of planets where the cycles of the moon(s) can be more or less than twelve and dating systems don’t necessarily assign a twelve months to a year, how did “a dozen” become a base unit of measurement?
But that’s just me thinking too much.
I think the problem with “dozen” gets more technical than dimes–while a dime is a strict Americanism, a dozen has more of a worldwide understanding, but is it universal? Considering humans generally stick to counting by units of ten, counting by twelve is rather unusual. And in a galaxy far, far away with thousands of species coming from thousands of planets where the cycles of the moon(s) can be more or less than twelve and dating systems don’t necessarily assign a twelve months to a year, how did “a dozen” become a base unit of measurement?
But that’s just me thinking too much.
I wrote a good deal about Han’s “see you in hëll” line, then I scrolled up before posting and saw it had been discussed already. Oh well, that line stood out for me, but not as much as this line would have if I were watching the show (which, to answer the question, I’m not).
To me, this just further establishes the young Obi-Wan as an áššhølë. It would have established him as an áššhølë even if he had said something like “R2 units are a decicred a dozen.” Everybody loves Artoo, it’s a fact. Here Obi-Wan is talking about him like he’s expendable. This is the same Obi-Wan who joined the rest of the Jedi in spouting all the “falling in love leads to the DARK SIDE” bûllšhìŧ*, and who left Anakin to burn in the lava instead of saving his life and trying to bring him back. These prequels have caused me to lose a ton of respect for Obi-Wan as a character.
Luke Skywalker, on the other hand, didn’t give up on Vader, didn’t abandon him to the dark side. Luke also treated the droids really well, and I can’t imagine him ever reacting so indifferently if something happened to Artoo.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Luke is a much better character than Obi-Wan, and that’s one of the reasons I like the original trilogy better. Also why I liked the Expanded Universe novels set after the O.T. better than the prequels, until recently when they began to suck.
Not just the “dime” thing, but the fact that I don’t see Obi-Wan being so callous about droids.
After the prequels, I do. He’s presented in those as being very callous.
Droids in the SW universe aren’t considered “people.”
They are by Luke and, to a lesser extent, Leia. Plus Chewbacca cared enough about Threepio to try putting him back together, even though it was always clear that Chewie considered him a pain in the ášš.
*Here’s something I’d love to ask George Lucas if I ever got a moment of his time: if falling in love leads to the dark side, and if Leia is Force-sensitive and destined to be a Jedi just like her brother, then WHY does Episode VI end with her getting together with Han? Now that we’ve seen the prequels, are we supposed to believe that she’s going to become obsessed with keeping Han alive? That she’ll turn dark in order to keep him around? That she’ll do all kinds of evil things in order to avoid losing her husband? Is she going to do all of that, or is she going to act like the good and reasonable person that she is and be willing to let him go when his time comes? In the novels, she acts like a good and reasonable person, and I consider that much more realistic than what we saw Anakin doing in “Revenge of the Sith.”
I wrote a good deal about Han’s “see you in hëll” line, then I scrolled up before posting and saw it had been discussed already. Oh well, that line stood out for me, but not as much as this line would have if I were watching the show (which, to answer the question, I’m not).
To me, this just further establishes the young Obi-Wan as an áššhølë. It would have established him as an áššhølë even if he had said something like “R2 units are a decicred a dozen.” Everybody loves Artoo, it’s a fact. Here Obi-Wan is talking about him like he’s expendable. This is the same Obi-Wan who joined the rest of the Jedi in spouting all the “falling in love leads to the DARK SIDE” bûllšhìŧ*, and who left Anakin to burn in the lava instead of saving his life and trying to bring him back. These prequels have caused me to lose a ton of respect for Obi-Wan as a character.
Luke Skywalker, on the other hand, didn’t give up on Vader, didn’t abandon him to the dark side. Luke also treated the droids really well, and I can’t imagine him ever reacting so indifferently if something happened to Artoo.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Luke is a much better character than Obi-Wan, and that’s one of the reasons I like the original trilogy better. Also why I liked the Expanded Universe novels set after the O.T. better than the prequels, until recently when they began to suck.
Not just the “dime” thing, but the fact that I don’t see Obi-Wan being so callous about droids.
After the prequels, I do. He’s presented in those as being very callous.
Droids in the SW universe aren’t considered “people.”
They are by Luke and, to a lesser extent, Leia. Plus Chewbacca cared enough about Threepio to try putting him back together, even though it was always clear that Chewie considered him a pain in the ášš.
*Here’s something I’d love to ask George Lucas if I ever got a moment of his time: if falling in love leads to the dark side, and if Leia is Force-sensitive and destined to be a Jedi just like her brother, then WHY does Episode VI end with her getting together with Han? Now that we’ve seen the prequels, are we supposed to believe that she’s going to become obsessed with keeping Han alive? That she’ll turn dark in order to keep him around? That she’ll do all kinds of evil things in order to avoid losing her husband? Is she going to do all of that, or is she going to act like the good and reasonable person that she is and be willing to let him go when his time comes? In the novels, she acts like a good and reasonable person, and I consider that much more realistic than what we saw Anakin doing in “Revenge of the Sith.”
The interpretation I of the whole “love leads to the dark side” deal is that the Jedi council was WRONG, and if they helped Anakin deal with his paranoia over Padme’s safety they would’ve been a lot better off. He lacked the capacity to deal with loss because they just expected him to have nothing to lose.
Leia, on the other hand, seemed to get by okay after her planet blew up, so I think she could handle it.
On the topic of Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to die: I’d cut him some slack. The guy was trying to kill him. Not ten minutes earlier he was strangling his pregnant wife. And the last Obi-Wan saw him before that was in security footage of him hacking children to death and swearing allegiance to Space-Hitler.
Simon Pegg said in an NPR interview that Lucas advised him to avoid trying to relive glories 30 years later. Lucas is probably more disgusted with what Star Wars has turned into than anyone than anyone else, but the river of money it brings-in cuts the urgency to fix it.
Simon Pegg said in an NPR interview that Lucas advised him to avoid trying to relive glories 30 years later. Lucas is probably more disgusted with what Star Wars has turned into than anyone than anyone else, but the river of money it brings-in cuts the urgency to fix it.
To me, this just further establishes the young Obi-Wan as an áššhølë.
And by the events of Jedi, Obi-Wan (at least Spirit Obi-Wan) definitely feels bad about how he’d been, and is finally able to admit yep, I screwed up and helped screw up the galaxy in the process. I was an ášš in many ways. It makes parts of Jedi richer, because we know more of the history that he’s not proud of. I like parts of the Star Wars prequels, and having Obi-Wan be much less than noble at times is one such part.
We all should treat droids better. And we should never forget the noble sacrifice of Skippy the Jedi Droid…
Also, in Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda were urging Luke to kill Vader, and events ended demonstrating he was wrong.
Conor, at the very least Obi-Wan owed Anakin a quick death. Just walk up and finish him off with your lightsaber. Don’t walk away and leave him to suffer a slow, agonizing death. That’s inhuman.
That’s the difference between good guys and bad. Good guys don’t torture, and burning alive is torture IMO.
If you’re a really good guy, you forget what the bad guy did and you save his life anyway. When I’ve argued about this before with other comic book fans, I’ve brought up the fact that Captain America either saved Baron Zemo’s life or tried to save it on no less than four separate occasions. Cap’s the kind of hero that I wish Obi-Wan had been.
I’m not going to cut Obi-Wan some slack on this, and I’ll tell you why. The Jedi order he belonged to was all about being emotionless. A lot of people would say that means sacrificing your humanity, including myself, but there is one argument that can be made in favour of not allowing yourself to be influenced by emotion. It’s the argument used by the Vulcans in Star Trek. Here it is: emotion sometimes makes you do things that are stupid and destructive.
You’re implying that Obi-Wan was horrified by what Anakin was doing, that he was angry at Anakin. That would be a normal reaction. But it wouldn’t be a Jedi reaction. Obi-Wan, according to his personal code, is supposed to rise above that kind of thing. He’s not supposed to hold grudges, he’s not supposed to let anger dictate how he handles his enemies. He went all of those years telling Anakin “You have to stay calm all the time, you have to avoid emotion, you have to avoid passion,” and things like that. If, in the end, Obi-Wan allowed his emotions to factor into his decision about what to do concerning Anakin, he is a hypocrite. “Do as I say, not as I do.”
There’s something else. After watching ROTS, there is only one explanation I can come up with for Anakin’s behaviour: he was batshit crazy. Everything he had done, selling out the galaxy, killing innocents, was to save Padme’s life. And then, when he suspects her of betraying him, he tries to kill her. He tries to kill the woman who is more important to him than anything else in the galaxy.
Tell me that’s not the act of an insane man, of a man not in his right mind. Of a man who needs help.
An insane man is not responsible for his actions, and therefore not deserving of punishment. An insane man can sometimes be cured of his insanity. Obi-Wan barely tried to bring Anakin back, then he gave up on him. The galaxy was worse off for it.
The interpretation I of the whole “love leads to the dark side” deal is that the Jedi council was WRONG, and if they helped Anakin deal with his paranoia over Padme’s safety they would’ve been a lot better off.
I like that interpretation, but I don’t think it’s what Lucas believes. It seemed to me that the prequel trilogy was a cautionary tale about what happens when a Jedi falls in love. The audio commentary on the Episode II DVD seems to back this up, because on that Lucas talks about how Anakin was selfish for wanting his mother to stay alive, and that he should have just let her go.
And by the events of Jedi, Obi-Wan (at least Spirit Obi-Wan) definitely feels bad about how he’d been, and is finally able to admit yep, I screwed up and helped screw up the galaxy in the process. I was an ášš in many ways.
That’s not how I interpreted his words, looking back at them after seeing the prequels.
Basically he says “I didn’t train Anakin as well as Yoda would have. And that’s why he turned into an evil Sith, and that’s why you have got to go and kill him now, Luke, because he’s a lost cause and he needs somebody to cut him apart with a lightsaber.”
He still thinks that Anakin can’t be redeemed, you see. He’s still convinced that as soon as Anakin went Sith, Anakin turned into a completely different person and as such needed to be put down like a rabid dog. No point in even TRYING to redeem him.
Conor, at the very least Obi-Wan owed Anakin a quick death. Just walk up and finish him off with your lightsaber. Don’t walk away and leave him to suffer a slow, agonizing death. That’s inhuman.
That’s the difference between good guys and bad. Good guys don’t torture, and burning alive is torture IMO.
If you’re a really good guy, you forget what the bad guy did and you save his life anyway. When I’ve argued about this before with other comic book fans, I’ve brought up the fact that Captain America either saved Baron Zemo’s life or tried to save it on no less than four separate occasions. Cap’s the kind of hero that I wish Obi-Wan had been.
I’m not going to cut Obi-Wan some slack on this, and I’ll tell you why. The Jedi order he belonged to was all about being emotionless. A lot of people would say that means sacrificing your humanity, including myself, but there is one argument that can be made in favour of not allowing yourself to be influenced by emotion. It’s the argument used by the Vulcans in Star Trek. Here it is: emotion sometimes makes you do things that are stupid and destructive.
You’re implying that Obi-Wan was horrified by what Anakin was doing, that he was angry at Anakin. That would be a normal reaction. But it wouldn’t be a Jedi reaction. Obi-Wan, according to his personal code, is supposed to rise above that kind of thing. He’s not supposed to hold grudges, he’s not supposed to let anger dictate how he handles his enemies. He went all of those years telling Anakin “You have to stay calm all the time, you have to avoid emotion, you have to avoid passion,” and things like that. If, in the end, Obi-Wan allowed his emotions to factor into his decision about what to do concerning Anakin, he is a hypocrite. “Do as I say, not as I do.”
There’s something else. After watching ROTS, there is only one explanation I can come up with for Anakin’s behaviour: he was batshit crazy. Everything he had done, selling out the galaxy, killing innocents, was to save Padme’s life. And then, when he suspects her of betraying him, he tries to kill her. He tries to kill the woman who is more important to him than anything else in the galaxy.
Tell me that’s not the act of an insane man, of a man not in his right mind. Of a man who needs help.
An insane man is not responsible for his actions, and therefore not deserving of punishment. An insane man can sometimes be cured of his insanity. Obi-Wan barely tried to bring Anakin back, then he gave up on him. The galaxy was worse off for it.
The interpretation I of the whole “love leads to the dark side” deal is that the Jedi council was WRONG, and if they helped Anakin deal with his paranoia over Padme’s safety they would’ve been a lot better off.
I like that interpretation, but I don’t think it’s what Lucas believes. It seemed to me that the prequel trilogy was a cautionary tale about what happens when a Jedi falls in love. The audio commentary on the Episode II DVD seems to back this up, because on that Lucas talks about how Anakin was selfish for wanting his mother to stay alive, and that he should have just let her go.
And by the events of Jedi, Obi-Wan (at least Spirit Obi-Wan) definitely feels bad about how he’d been, and is finally able to admit yep, I screwed up and helped screw up the galaxy in the process. I was an ášš in many ways.
That’s not how I interpreted his words, looking back at them after seeing the prequels.
Basically he says “I didn’t train Anakin as well as Yoda would have. And that’s why he turned into an evil Sith, and that’s why you have got to go and kill him now, Luke, because he’s a lost cause and he needs somebody to cut him apart with a lightsaber.”
He still thinks that Anakin can’t be redeemed, you see. He’s still convinced that as soon as Anakin went Sith, Anakin turned into a completely different person and as such needed to be put down like a rabid dog. No point in even TRYING to redeem him.
Is anyone else bugged by the knowledge that Ahsoka will inevitably get killed by the troops loyal to Anakin after he turns to the Dark Side? I don’t think the order to kill all Jedi excludes the cute, perky ones…
Is anyone else bugged by the knowledge that Ahsoka will inevitably get killed by the troops loyal to Anakin after he turns to the Dark Side? I don’t think the order to kill all Jedi excludes the cute, perky ones…
James, according to the novels* there were some Jedi who survived Order 66 and then went underground. So it’s possible that she survives.
*Take that for what it’s worth. After all, when Lucas needed a name for the capital of the Republic he looked to see what the planet in the novels was called, and that’s where he got “Coruscant.” On the other hand, Lucas completely disregarded established continuity on Boba Fett and gave Fett an entirely different back story than the one told in the novels.
Lucas is also a big Joseph Campbell reader, and Campbell points out that the Islamic interpretation of the fall from heaven isn’t that Satan was too proud to bow to man, but that Satan was too devoted to serving God to dilute his single-mindedness. It was love of God that dámņëd him.
Lucas is also a big Joseph Campbell reader, and Campbell points out that the Islamic interpretation of the fall from heaven isn’t that Satan was too proud to bow to man, but that Satan was too devoted to serving God to dilute his single-mindedness. It was love of God that dámņëd him.
Rob: have you ever seen a horror movie? Getting in close enoguh to finish him off would probably mean Anakin using the last of his strength to Force-shove Obi-Wan into the lava.
Other than that, he’s human. Anakin did something horrible to him. If my best friend turned into a child killing space Nazi who tried to kill me, I’d be just a little peeved. One moment of weakness doesn’t make him a monster.
“Anakin was selfish for wanting his mother to stay alive, and that he should have just let her go.”
That was pretty much my point. Instead of helping him deal with this stuff like a well-adjusted person, they just told him “Attachments bad!” and that was it. Luke was raised by normal people (and he didn’t go bugnuts crazy when they died), and he won in the end BECAUSE of his attachment to his father.
Rob: have you ever seen a horror movie? Getting in close enoguh to finish him off would probably mean Anakin using the last of his strength to Force-shove Obi-Wan into the lava.
Other than that, he’s human. Anakin did something horrible to him. If my best friend turned into a child killing space Nazi who tried to kill me, I’d be just a little peeved. One moment of weakness doesn’t make him a monster.
“Anakin was selfish for wanting his mother to stay alive, and that he should have just let her go.”
That was pretty much my point. Instead of helping him deal with this stuff like a well-adjusted person, they just told him “Attachments bad!” and that was it. Luke was raised by normal people (and he didn’t go bugnuts crazy when they died), and he won in the end BECAUSE of his attachment to his father.
I haven’t been watching Clone Wars. I’d like to buy it when it goes to DVD. Or get it for Christmas.
Way back when the first STAR WARS film came out, a Scottish daily newspaper ran it’s own adaptation of the film, including the immortal line “R2D2 reminded Luke of an object called a pillar box he had once seen on a planet called Earth…”
Way back when the first STAR WARS film came out, a Scottish daily newspaper ran it’s own adaptation of the film, including the immortal line “R2D2 reminded Luke of an object called a pillar box he had once seen on a planet called Earth…”
I wish Cowboy Pete were still reviewing PUSHING DAISIES…while we still have it.
I wish Cowboy Pete were still reviewing PUSHING DAISIES…while we still have it.
“I don’t recall ever owning a droid…”
Admittedly Obi-Wan never did – even R4 was just part of the Jedi fighter he piloted – but you think he’d at least remember the ‘plucky little fellow’ who saved his life on countless occasions. Unless he was utterly dismissive of droids, that is.
Throughout AOTC we hear him talking to R4 pretty much in the same manner as any of the other characters talk to R2, yet When R4 was destroyed all we got was a rather limp ‘Oh dear!’
I think there’s a MAJOR sociology dissertation to be wrought from the mistreatment of droids in the Star Wars universe. They are clearly sentient – even the Battle droids have bad feelings! We are talking about a slave race here, people! Second class citizens that can seemingly be bought for only 10 cents a dozen!
Someone needs to take a stand.
“I don’t recall ever owning a droid…”
Admittedly Obi-Wan never did – even R4 was just part of the Jedi fighter he piloted – but you think he’d at least remember the ‘plucky little fellow’ who saved his life on countless occasions. Unless he was utterly dismissive of droids, that is.
Throughout AOTC we hear him talking to R4 pretty much in the same manner as any of the other characters talk to R2, yet When R4 was destroyed all we got was a rather limp ‘Oh dear!’
I think there’s a MAJOR sociology dissertation to be wrought from the mistreatment of droids in the Star Wars universe. They are clearly sentient – even the Battle droids have bad feelings! We are talking about a slave race here, people! Second class citizens that can seemingly be bought for only 10 cents a dozen!
Someone needs to take a stand.
Rob – Not only the novels. The excellent radio adaptation of SW IV has Obi-Wan explaining to Luke that not all Jedi were exterminated, but that they couldn’t count on help from the others. Which makes sense. It IS a *big* galaxy, after all.
David – Not just feelings. I’ve got a couple of friends who make a good case that R2-D2 is Force-sensitive. Given how far above the average ‘production’ droid he is in performance, durability and ingenuity, I’d say they have a case.
Anyone steamed over Uncle Owen telling Aunt Beru that Luke’d better have those droids working, or there’ll be Hëll to pay?
Anyone steamed over Uncle Owen telling Aunt Beru that Luke’d better have those droids working, or there’ll be Hëll to pay?
Bobb,
you mis-heard. What Owen said was there’ll be “Heltupe”
Heltupe was the Tatooine version of the boogyman. known to come out at night to snatch bad little boys who refused to heed their uncle’s orders.
Peter’s initial point is valid. It’s lazy writing. Obi-Wan could have said “those droids are two for a credit” and the meaning would have been the same as using “dime a dozen”
and let’s not get into species who don’t have 10 fingers or toes and therefore would have never developed a base ten counting system, or a king who dictated the lenght of measure based on the lenght of his arm, or bakers who decided a “dozen” was actuallt 13 and not 12.
Bobb,
you mis-heard. What Owen said was there’ll be “Heltupe”
Heltupe was the Tatooine version of the boogyman. known to come out at night to snatch bad little boys who refused to heed their uncle’s orders.
Peter’s initial point is valid. It’s lazy writing. Obi-Wan could have said “those droids are two for a credit” and the meaning would have been the same as using “dime a dozen”
and let’s not get into species who don’t have 10 fingers or toes and therefore would have never developed a base ten counting system, or a king who dictated the lenght of measure based on the lenght of his arm, or bakers who decided a “dozen” was actuallt 13 and not 12.
Basically he says “I didn’t train Anakin as well as Yoda would have. And that’s why he turned into an evil Sith, and that’s why you have got to go and kill him now, Luke, because he’s a lost cause and he needs somebody to cut him apart with a lightsaber.”
He still thinks that Anakin can’t be redeemed, you see. He’s still convinced that as soon as Anakin went Sith, Anakin turned into a completely different person and as such needed to be put down like a rabid dog. No point in even TRYING to redeem him.
Point taken. I was letting myself think So what else is weighing on Obi-Wan’s mind? Kind of like PAD’s analysis of the links between Episodes III and IV back in 2005.
Why do Star Wars characters use works like “Dime”, “Dozen” and “Hëll”
Because when the History Books were found and translated to English, the words they did use were translated to their closest equivalent
Example:
Original: “Hhjfdu ksjdydf fjkali8 dfhhuef dfhjd`ju`”
English Translation: “…are a dime a dozen.”
It’s called FANTASY and/or FICTION for a reason…
Imagine if all the “humans” in SW spoke something other than English… be real hard to watch or understand….
Why do Star Wars characters use works like “Dime”, “Dozen” and “Hëll”
Because when the History Books were found and translated to English, the words they did use were translated to their closest equivalent
Example:
Original: “Hhjfdu ksjdydf fjkali8 dfhhuef dfhjd`ju`”
English Translation: “…are a dime a dozen.”
It’s called FANTASY and/or FICTION for a reason…
Imagine if all the “humans” in SW spoke something other than English… be real hard to watch or understand….
A dime could just mean 10 credits.
A dime could just mean 10 credits.
The interpretation I of the whole “love leads to the dark side” deal is that the Jedi council was WRONG, and if they helped Anakin deal with his paranoia over Padme’s safety they would’ve been a lot better off.
Your interpretation seems to be shared by the writers of the Knights of the Old Republic games. Particularly in the second, the Jedi Council seemed to assume that since the Exile was naughty once, he must have fallen to the Dark Side. And rather than try to redeem him, they went on to assume that he was going to be eee-villl forever, beyond help. That came back to haunt them, when they were confronted by Kreia on Dantooine…
Meanwhile, both games revolved around redemption of the fallen (at least, if you went for the Light Side options). In fact, one of the first Jedi missions available gives you the opportunity to rescue a padawan who believes she’s now Evil because she struck at her master in anger. If you use the right conversational options, you can show her that this was just a momentary abberation, and she could use this as incentive to stay calm in the future. (And if you rescue her and she joins your group, there’s a storyline further along in which she gets the chance to confront the shadows of her past, and you can either help her recover or help her condemn herself again…)
The Sith Lords gives you the chance to not only redeem yourself for your past, but begin to train others in the ways of the Jedi. (As far as I can tell, playing Dark Side does not give an equal chance to convert them to Sith – but I never played Dark Side for long; it always left me feeling like I needed a long shower.)
1) haven’t watched the show.
2) Isn’t dozen just afancy world for 12? I don’t see aproblem with that.
3) Couldn’t Hëll be considered as a general reference to afterlife instead of a specific reference to christianity? I think people use the term to refer to the Chinese afterlife, Egyptian, but I’m not sure.
3) Meter is a culturally specific unit, but it could be argued that using it is necessary because we wouldn’t know know what an imaginary unit refers too. A bit of a strech? I have only a vague idea of American units.
4) Dime is a very specific American coin. Very annoying. You can’t know what it is by the name or by looking at it. It could be argued that it is simply a translation of an alien phrase. There are similar phrases refering to other small coins like farthing for example. But it would have been more creative to imagine the appropriate phrase for the galactic society rather than claim the excuse of a translation. Still, I don’t know what’s the worl load of a TV writer. It doesn’t seem critical to me. Is the show good aside from that small mistake?
5) “the History Books were found and translated to English, the words they did use were translated to their closest equivalent”
Actually, the original trilogy made good use of aliens/droids talking alien languages — specifically R2 and Chubacca (spl.)
6) I don’t know if the writer put the phrase to indicate that Obi-Wan doesn’t care about droids, maybe connect to his denial to ever owning a droid. Although I prefer PAD’s explanation better — namely that Obi-Wan and R2 were both deceiving Luke. Moreover, although it would have been interesting if Obi-Wan, or Jedi other then Anakin in general, were established as not caring for or not dependent on technology, this was not established.
7) “I think there’s a MAJOR sociology dissertation to be wrought from the mistreatment of droids in the Star Wars universe. They are clearly sentient – even the Battle droids have bad feelings! We are talking about a slave race here, people! Second class citizens that can seemingly be bought for only 10 cents a dozen!”
What next letting R2 and C3PO marry?
8) “To me, this just further establishes the young Obi-Wan as an áššhølë.”
In the old movies Obi-Wan was portrayed as somewhat dishonnest, not completely positive character. But in a cool intersting way, not an áššhølë. I know that Obi-wan is considered one of the strong characters of the prequels, but I feel he was really mistreated and undermined as a character from the very beginning. Letting Anakin burn without either saving him or killing him was a bad ending to a bad character arc. I disagree with Connor that here is any way to excuse that scene — it was bad characterization and bad for the story. Anakin did not pose a threat. Letting him suffer extensive burns and not killing a manwho becomes one of the worst people in the galaxy would reflect really badly on Batman, it makes Obi-Wan look terrible. And after making Obi-Wan an extremely unemotional character, and not establishing any emotional relationship with anybody, it seems unlikely that he would suddenly turn into the Punisher’s mean brother and torture a person he was just lamenting (unconvincingly) as a brother. The lava battle may have been visually cool, but I dislike it for being the culmination of the misuse of Obi-Wan.
9) “And by the events of Jedi, Obi-Wan (at least Spirit Obi-Wan) definitely feels bad about how he’d been, and is finally able to admit yep, I screwed up and helped screw up the galaxy in the process. I was an ášš in many ways. It makes parts of Jedi richer, because we know more of the history that he’s not proud of. I like parts of the Star Wars prequels, and having Obi-Wan be much less than noble at times is one such part.”
Yes, there is a theme of Obi-wan’s guilt in Jedi. Supposedly because his hubris that he could do as good a job as Yoda, but all this was so badly established in the prequels. In Ep. 1 it is Qui-Gon who decides to take Anakin and establishes a relationship with him. In Ep. 2 Obi-Wan doesn’t seem to be doing a bad job training Anakin, unless we assume he scolded and pestered him into the dark side, which along with some bad banter is the only relationship between them. Obi-Wan is not at fault that Jedi don’t marry, or in denying him the rank of master. Nor is he ever portrayed as exceptionally arrogant — Qui-Gon is. Obi-Wan is mostly prissy. Poor guy. He should have been the coolest character.
10) “There’s something else. After watching ROTS, there is only one explanation I can come up with for Anakin’s behaviour: he was batshit crazy.”
Needless to say, I think that Anakin’s fall was also poorly handled (although I did like the idea that the Jedi were blind to love). Consider this, in AOTC Anakin slaughtered a whole village of sandpeople, including children. You’d think he would have been issued a red lightsaber and Sith handbook then and there, but this was totally ignored. However, to say that Anakin was not responsible for his actions pretty much takes away the whole point of the whole saga.
On the other hand, it seems to me turning to the dark side is more than changing one’s mind — the change seems supernatural. In ROTJ it seems as if the Emperor expected Luke to become a weak servant without will power the minute he will kill Vader.
11) “Obi-Wan barely tried to bring Anakin back, then he gave up on him. The galaxy was worse off for it.”
Another part of the mishandling of Obi-Wan is that we don’t really see a stage in which he tries to turn Anakin back and fails — at least not very strongly — although Vader implies in ROTJ that Obi-Wan thought he could be redeemed at one stage but recognized that it’s not possible. In any case, the whole point of the story was that the attempt to redeem Vader at this stage was a great, almost insane, hopeless risk, and also something only Luke his son could do (possible Christ reference).
12) “I like that interpretation, but I don’t think it’s what Lucas believes. It seemed to me that the prequel trilogy was a cautionary tale about what happens when a Jedi falls in love. “
I really don’t know what Lucas thinks, and I would hazzard a guess, but isn’t the point of the whole saga that love redeemed Vader, that Luke’s ties to his family and friends were the source of his strength? I would find it a very poor story if the Jedi’s attitude toward love was completelly correct. I think it would be right to say that love could and did have negative consequences too when combined with anakin’s problems and the Jedi’s blindness.
If the stories depicting Luke and Leia getting married are considered cannon then maybe Luke was a protestant Jedi?
13) “Is anyone else bugged by the knowledge that Ahsoka will inevitably get killed by the troops loyal to Anakin after he turns to the Dark Side? I don’t think the order to kill all Jedi excludes the cute, perky ones…”
Maybe there is Order 67 exempting cute perky Jedi.
Way back when the first STAR WARS film came out, a Scottish daily newspaper ran it’s own adaptation of the film, including the immortal line “R2D2 reminded Luke of an object called a pillar box he had once seen on a planet called Earth…”
That reminds me of something else from the novelization of “A New Hope”, ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster.
OBI-WAN: “Still, even a duck has to be taught to swim.”
LUKE: “What’s a duck?”
OBI-WAN: “Never mind…”
We saw some ducks swimming around a lake on Naboo in The Phantom Menace, and we saw rats skittering around Jabba’s palace. I guess if this galaxy has one species from our neck of the woods, it can have three…
I think there’s a MAJOR sociology dissertation to be wrought from the mistreatment of droids in the Star Wars universe.
“The Courtship of Princess Leia” by Dave Wolverton isn’t my favourite SW novel by any stretch, but there is one scene where the Senate is convening to discuss something and some “droid rights” people are in the crowd.
Also, in Michael Reaves’ novel “Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter”, the protagonist of the book, Lorn Pavan, is business partners with a modified 3PO droid. The droid, I-5, has blasters built into his fingertips and is also free to make his own decisions regardless of what Lorn wishes. His personality is different from C-3PO’s; far less annoying.
Lorn first found I-5 when I-5 was owned by a rich family with bratty kids who had decided to either repeatedly shove him off the roof of their house or repeatedly order him to jump off the roof, just for fun, to see how much punishment he could take or how high he’d bounce or whatever. Lorn found him after one of these falls, and reactivated him. His first words were, IIRC, “Please don’t hurt me.” Lorn rescued him and gave him those upgrades, which was pretty awesome of him.
Point taken. I was letting myself think So what else is weighing on Obi-Wan’s mind? Kind of like PAD’s analysis of the links between Episodes III and IV back in 2005.
Thanks for the link, Christopher. Which brings me to…
PAD: …Luke whined as much as his dad.
The difference is that Luke grew out of it.
I’ve done a good deal of bìŧçhìņg myself, so I hope everybody will forgive me for doing a little bit more. One of the things I found disappointing was how the adult Anakin we saw in the prequels fell far short of the image conjured up by Kenobi when he told Luke about his father. Look:
Obi-Wan: That’s what your uncle told you. He didn’t hold with your father’s ideals; he felt he should’ve stayed here and not gotten involved.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-Wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father.
Luke: I wish I’d known him.
Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you’ve become quite a good pilot yourself.
[sorrowfully]
Obi-Wan: And he was a good friend.
Great pilot, idealistic, great warrior (even though “wars not make one great”)…and good friend.
I had this picture built up of what Luke’s pop was like based on those words and based on how Vader acted in ROTJ. I also had an idea that his friendship with Obi-Wan was kind of like his friendship with Luke. Anakin didn’t measure up, and Obi-Wan was never a friend to him. Obi-Wan was more like the angry boss that you hate working for but whose crap you must perpetually take in order to stay employed.
Way back when the first STAR WARS film came out, a Scottish daily newspaper ran it’s own adaptation of the film, including the immortal line “R2D2 reminded Luke of an object called a pillar box he had once seen on a planet called Earth…”
That reminds me of something else from the novelization of “A New Hope”, ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster.
OBI-WAN: “Still, even a duck has to be taught to swim.”
LUKE: “What’s a duck?”
OBI-WAN: “Never mind…”
We saw some ducks swimming around a lake on Naboo in The Phantom Menace, and we saw rats skittering around Jabba’s palace. I guess if this galaxy has one species from our neck of the woods, it can have three…
I think there’s a MAJOR sociology dissertation to be wrought from the mistreatment of droids in the Star Wars universe.
“The Courtship of Princess Leia” by Dave Wolverton isn’t my favourite SW novel by any stretch, but there is one scene where the Senate is convening to discuss something and some “droid rights” people are in the crowd.
Also, in Michael Reaves’ novel “Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter”, the protagonist of the book, Lorn Pavan, is business partners with a modified 3PO droid. The droid, I-5, has blasters built into his fingertips and is also free to make his own decisions regardless of what Lorn wishes. His personality is different from C-3PO’s; far less annoying.
Lorn first found I-5 when I-5 was owned by a rich family with bratty kids who had decided to either repeatedly shove him off the roof of their house or repeatedly order him to jump off the roof, just for fun, to see how much punishment he could take or how high he’d bounce or whatever. Lorn found him after one of these falls, and reactivated him. His first words were, IIRC, “Please don’t hurt me.” Lorn rescued him and gave him those upgrades, which was pretty awesome of him.
Point taken. I was letting myself think So what else is weighing on Obi-Wan’s mind? Kind of like PAD’s analysis of the links between Episodes III and IV back in 2005.
Thanks for the link, Christopher. Which brings me to…
PAD: …Luke whined as much as his dad.
The difference is that Luke grew out of it.
I’ve done a good deal of bìŧçhìņg myself, so I hope everybody will forgive me for doing a little bit more. One of the things I found disappointing was how the adult Anakin we saw in the prequels fell far short of the image conjured up by Kenobi when he told Luke about his father. Look:
Obi-Wan: That’s what your uncle told you. He didn’t hold with your father’s ideals; he felt he should’ve stayed here and not gotten involved.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-Wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father.
Luke: I wish I’d known him.
Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you’ve become quite a good pilot yourself.
[sorrowfully]
Obi-Wan: And he was a good friend.
Great pilot, idealistic, great warrior (even though “wars not make one great”)…and good friend.
I had this picture built up of what Luke’s pop was like based on those words and based on how Vader acted in ROTJ. I also had an idea that his friendship with Obi-Wan was kind of like his friendship with Luke. Anakin didn’t measure up, and Obi-Wan was never a friend to him. Obi-Wan was more like the angry boss that you hate working for but whose crap you must perpetually take in order to stay employed.
What next letting R2 and C3PO marry?
Micha shoots and scores.
The lava battle may have been visually cool, but I dislike it for being the culmination of the misuse of Obi-Wan.
After the slaughter of the younglings I can’t really blame Obi for walking away…though as it turned out it would be an act he would have to regret for the rest of his life, for so many reasons.
But I dislike the lava battle even on the visual grounds. This is the battle we had been waiting literally decades for…and it didn’t live up to the expectation. Maybe it couldn’t have…but considering how cool the Qui Gon/Maul fight was, I think Lucas had it in him to pull it off. he simply gave in to his apparently unstoppable urge to make it Bigger! Bigger! Bigger! And we ended up with a 3 ring circus of rising lava and exploding stuff and floating flotsam and acrobatics…just give me two guys I care about dueling on the edge of a volcano with some good John Williams music and I would have been as happy as a pig in mud.
On the other hand, it seems to me turning to the dark side is more than changing one’s mind — the change seems supernatural. In ROTJ it seems as if the Emperor expected Luke to become a weak servant without will power the minute he will kill Vader.
Yeah, that’s true…maybe he thought at that moment of anger he (Palpatine) could possess him. Which makes you wonder–was Anakin possessed? Min-controlled by Magneto? What?
If the stories depicting Luke and Leia getting married are considered cannon then maybe Luke was a protestant Jedi?
Since Luke is pretty much Head Honcho Big Cheese King Jedi Theremin at the end of ROTJ I guess he can make any rules he wants. Start from scratch and avoid the many mistakes the Jedi did when they were fat dumb and happy.
Here’s another thought; we’re supposed to feel bad about the fall of the Republic but it’s not much of a loss except when one considers what followed. It’s an unwieldy, bureaucratic theocracy. If you read between the lines it doesn’t take much to see the Jedi as little more than mob enforcers for their religion. “The negotiations will be brief” Qui-Gon says and you know he believes it. When you’re negotiating with a guy who is armed and has the ability to alter your thoughts or just kill you with some flashy lightning bolts, yeah, I’ll bet most negotiations are real brief.