Thus far the blogging of the VP debate drew comments faster and more furiously than the Presidential debate. Let’s see what happens this time around. As always, I’m watching the broadcast on PBS. Comments below the cut line.
9:02: ” I have selected a long list of excellent questions that will not be answered…”
9:03: McCain in a red tie, Obama in a blue tie. Perfect.
9:03: Obama goes for the attack early.
9:05: I’m being reminded of the Underpants gnomes from “South Park.” “Step One, Bailout. Step two…(deafening silence). Step three: Profit!”
9:06: Huh? Energy independence? Uhm…okay.
9:07: I’m waiting for McCain to sit down on the step next to the guy. Maybe ask him to sit in his lap.
9:08: And McCain goes for a joke! It’s a missed bunt.
9:09: Here’s the problem: McCain is talking about wall Street cronyism, yet he has plenty of Wall Street lobbyists on his staff.
9:10: Obama continues on the attack. He’s trying to bait McCain into blowing his temper, get scolding, etc. It’s a gambit; if it doesn’t work, if McCain doesn’t respond to the attacks, Obama going to look as if he’s endlessly carping.
9:12: The questioner is looking for specifics. Let’s see if he gets them. And now McCain fires back at Obama, referring to “cronies.” Obama is going to have to spend time defending himself rather than getting specific.
9:14: Smart. Obama speaks to the question first rather than responding to McCain’s charges.
9:15: And yet politicians ARE pointing fingers.
9:18: How do we trust you? Good question.
9:19: This could wind up being a major question because Obama tends to be a history and facts wonk while McCain does better in connecting with people on an emotional level, and trust is an emotional question.
9:20: This would have been the question for Obama to talk about hardscrabble roots or some such, the notion that “I’ve known hard times, I’m on your side.”
9:21: No, he has NOT been a consistent reformer. He has been consistently self serving. Read the Rolling Stones article.
9:22: They’re both blowing this opportunity. This is the kind of question that Bill Clinton would have knocked out of the park. Say what you will about Clinton, but he has tremendous personal charisma and you would have seen it on display for this question.
9:24: he could work on all three at once? NOW he can multi task? He couldn’t even campaign and work on the economy at the same time.
9:25: Every time he says, “My friends” I keep flashing back to “The Music Man” doing “Trouble.”
9:26: Yeah, but JFK had to die to give us the impetus to get to the moon.
9:27: Brokaw is trying his best to rein them in for time.
9:29: That air force tanker was actually a pork barrel project that he managed to push past through Carter’s objections. And there was a lawsuit involved as well because of European involvement that made its construction unfair competition for Americans.
9:30: OBAMA mentioned 9/11 first? Cripes.
9:31: Still, the comment about going out and shopping “not being the kind of call to service we were looking for” is kind of funny.
9:32: Clean coal technology is a myth. Unless there’s a new scientific breakthrough, it’s never going to happen.
9:33 If Bush says Wall Street got drunk, I’d take his word for it. With his history, he’d know.
9:34 I wonder if either of them will talk about putting Wall street on a 12 step program.
9:35: Obama should say, “I know Senator Obama worked with Herbert Hoover and knew Herbert Hoover, but I assure you I’m no Herbert Hoover.”
9:37: I keep waiting for them to follow the “West Wing” format and basically say, “Screw the rules, we’re just going to talk back and forth.”
9:38: Social security is the third rail of politics. If they talk about reforming it, they’re in trouble. “The straight talk express lost a wheel.” Nice. I’m sure he was waiting for the opportunity to use it.
9:40: Obama is steering the question away from what Brokaw said.
9:41: I’LL answer the question. Oh, snap.
9:41: Oh God, another frakking commission.
9:42: Look at the record? Keating 5.
9:43: McCain tries to distance himself from the Bush administration. Smart. Let’s see if Obama tries to tie him right back to it. Meantime he follows the West Wing scenario, advocating nuclear fuel just as Vinick did. Again, let’s hope a nuclear meltdown doesn’t happen to keep the scenario going.
9:45: Is EVERYTHING one of the biggest challenges of our time?
9:46: YES! Obama finally hits the nail in talking about the fact that McCain has been there for so long and hasn’t accomplished any of the things he talks about.
9:47: God, I just wish that Brokaw would just say, “Look, do you guys just want to toss the rules? Because if you do, let’s take the gloves off and go and I will go ‘Meet the Press’ on both of you.”
9:51: No. the health care in the congress is one of the most generous policies ever. They have all the stuff that we have slowly lost over the years due to the insurance companies.
9:52: Notice that Obama is no longer (a) stuttering at the start of questions and (b) saying “Senator McCain is absolutely right” about anything.
9:53: Why does no one point out that $5000 won’t get you health insurance?
9:54: cross-state insurance won’t work. NY people can’t go flocking to Ohio for health insurance, because in many states the state governments supplement the medical programs (the HIP program, for instance, is supplemented by state taxpayer money.) If the state governments see people flooding in from other states whose taxes aren’t going into the pot, how likely are they to continue supplementing the programs?
9:56: Oooo. Obama finally brings the personal aspect in.
9:57: Hah! He brought up McCain voting against children’s healthcare. I was wondering if he would.
9:58: Obama just stepped in something and he knows it. Biden’s from Delaware.
9:59: Obama can use this question as a major opportunity to link McCain to Bush when it comes to damaging our ability to act as peacemakers.
10:01: Obama was wrong about the surge. And McCain was wrong about every aspect of the war.
10:02: Not really answering the question, but he’s jabbing back at McCain at least.
10:03: 79 comments on this thread thus far. As of this time during the VP debate we had over 200.
10:05: I agree with McCain: It requires a cool hand at the tiller. Unfortunately his is anything BUT a cool hand. That’s the problem.
10:07: “Your young men and women are my first priority right after our nation’s security.” Which would make them your…second priority.
10:09: Except the problem is that more troops in Afghanistan will likely not lead to much except more deaths of civilians which is going to pìšš øff the people there and further inflame hostility toward us.
10:11: Actually it’s “speak softly and carry a big stick,” which is a West African saying that Roosevelt quoted.
10:13: YES! YES! And notice he said “speaking softly, ” the correct quote.
10:15; And we’re back to McCain’s secret plan to get bin Laden. He keep saying that. He has a secret plan. Has he shared this plan with anyone?
10:16: Brokaw is going to give Saturday night Live a field day.
10:18: Oh my God, McCain said that Obama was correct about something. Is that a first?
10:19: McCain’s right, I doubt we’ll have another cold war with Russia.
10:20: We’ve been SHOWING moral support for Georgia. It didn’t mean jack.
10:21: Yes. Obama jumps on the moral support opening. The question is, where do we get the money to provide financial support. And Obama already said the first thing he would cut would be money designed for foreign support.
10:22: As opposed to anticipating something AFTER it happens?
10;23: Gee, I would have thought McCain says Yes.
10:25: Ooooooo. the Jewish vote is listening carefully.
10:26: Aw, c’mon, are we back to the preconditions thing?
10:27: So Obama is basically saying that we want to take steps to make sure Israel isn’t attacked by Iran. Which is fine. But WHAT IF IT IS? That’s the question. If the steps fail, what then?
10:29: He never answered the question.
10:30: Obama deflects the zen question with humor and switches to his stump speech.
10:31: I could see McCain saying, “I don’t know how we will survive if Obama is elected, and I intend to never have to learn it.”
10:34: Except the great honor of his life was to put himself first. Again, read the RS articles.
CONCLUSION: I think both of them got good shots in. To my mind, Obama gave the better performance, albeit narrowly, but I’ve no idea if anyone who is undecided would have been swayed one way or the other.
• 
As part of the story of sabotaging the father’s career? Charles Kurault and Jesse Jackson had second families, and those chicks didn’t try to sabotage their careers.
Having taken some flak for more or less the same thing lately, I’d like to throw my two cents in.
The last eight years have been extremely frustrating. For people like me, like Alan, like Craig, like Jason, definitely like PAD, etc. Frustrating for anybody who doesn’t like to see the U.S. start unnecessary wars, set up a places like Guantanamo and secret prisons in other countries, torture people, pollute the planet, spy on people without getting a warrant first, and much more.
So some of those who are frustrated, like myself, ask “who got us into this mess?” Even if Florida was rigged in 2000, Bush wouldn’t have made it to the presidency if enough people in other states had been smarter, had voted smarter. In 2004 people had been given four years to observe that Bush was the wrong man for the job, they had a chance to get rid of him, and they didn’t.
“Who got us into this mess?” Answer: the people in the red states. Not all of them, of course, but the majority of them.
What do a lot of people in the red states fit the description of? Answer: rednecks.
So that’s why I’ll be pleasantly surprised if I run into a redneck who votes Democratic and why I’ll think to myself “great, another stereotypical redneck” if I run into one who votes Republican and has conservative views on everything.
In the keynote address that introduced him to people across the nation, Barack Obama said that there were no red or blue states, that the country and its people shouldn’t be divided and categorized like that, because it’s just not that simple. And intellectually, I know he’s right.
But on an emotional level, I look at a state like Texas and I think “most of the people in this state cast a vote for Bush/Cheney. They’re partly responsible for everything that’s happened under this president. I don’t like them.”
I’m not gonna say that I’m sick of rednecks. I will say that I’m sick of people who vote for people like George W. Bush and John McCain, who think that everything they do has been right. After eight years, I’m REALLY sick of people like that. And the electoral map tells me where the heaviest concentrations of them are, and does cause me to look at some states less favorably than others.
Sorry, but it’s the truth. I hope that people can understand that even if they don’t agree with it. It’s just the way I feel. I’m not claiming that it’s logical, or that it makes sense.
Having taken some flak for more or less the same thing lately, I’d like to throw my two cents in.
The last eight years have been extremely frustrating. For people like me, like Alan, like Craig, like Jason, definitely like PAD, etc. Frustrating for anybody who doesn’t like to see the U.S. start unnecessary wars, set up a places like Guantanamo and secret prisons in other countries, torture people, pollute the planet, spy on people without getting a warrant first, and much more.
So some of those who are frustrated, like myself, ask “who got us into this mess?” Even if Florida was rigged in 2000, Bush wouldn’t have made it to the presidency if enough people in other states had been smarter, had voted smarter. In 2004 people had been given four years to observe that Bush was the wrong man for the job, they had a chance to get rid of him, and they didn’t.
“Who got us into this mess?” Answer: the people in the red states. Not all of them, of course, but the majority of them.
What do a lot of people in the red states fit the description of? Answer: rednecks.
So that’s why I’ll be pleasantly surprised if I run into a redneck who votes Democratic and why I’ll think to myself “great, another stereotypical redneck” if I run into one who votes Republican and has conservative views on everything.
In the keynote address that introduced him to people across the nation, Barack Obama said that there were no red or blue states, that the country and its people shouldn’t be divided and categorized like that, because it’s just not that simple. And intellectually, I know he’s right.
But on an emotional level, I look at a state like Texas and I think “most of the people in this state cast a vote for Bush/Cheney. They’re partly responsible for everything that’s happened under this president. I don’t like them.”
I’m not gonna say that I’m sick of rednecks. I will say that I’m sick of people who vote for people like George W. Bush and John McCain, who think that everything they do has been right. After eight years, I’m REALLY sick of people like that. And the electoral map tells me where the heaviest concentrations of them are, and does cause me to look at some states less favorably than others.
Sorry, but it’s the truth. I hope that people can understand that even if they don’t agree with it. It’s just the way I feel. I’m not claiming that it’s logical, or that it makes sense.
Well, at least you admit there’s not a lot of thought involved in it. I respect that, a lot more than I respect people who take a purely irrational emotional stand and try to pass it off as the product of deep thinking.
All I can say is, anyone who cuts themself off from people because they voted for either one of the two major candidates for office, for no other reason that they voted for one of the two major candidates for office…well, they are probably denying themselves the friendship and company of some fine people. (I realize you did not specifically say that, Rob, but I would assume you would avoid the company of those who make you sick). And hey, that’s totally your call. You can’t pick your family but you can pick your friends. From a completely selfish perspective I encourage it, in the same way that I encourage people who don’t like shrimp not to eat it; more shrimp for the rest of us.
No, it’s an identifying characteristics of a moron.
I don’t think it’s a particularly good characteristic in someone running for the VP slot. IMHO.
No, it’s an identifying characteristics of a moron.
I don’t think it’s a particularly good characteristic in someone running for the VP slot. IMHO.
Bill Mulligan: Ok so it’s disobeying judges orders that’s an identifying characteristic of rednecks? Just so we’re clear.
Yes, that’s exactly the point I was making, in its entirety. Good job.
Bill Mulligan: Ok so it’s disobeying judges orders that’s an identifying characteristic of rednecks? Just so we’re clear.
Yes, that’s exactly the point I was making, in its entirety. Good job.
Rob Brown: What do a lot of people in the red states fit the description of? Answer: rednecks.
Ah, now you’re getting into the use of the word rednecks that I *don’t* agree with.
When one guy and his son are literally *playing* with a taser, I’m more than willing to call that guy a redneck. When his wife and sister in law are playing out an episode of Judge Judy’s Trailer Trash Theatre, I’ll call the whole family rednecks.
But let’s not call everyone who politically disagrees with us rednecks.
Some of them are. Some of them aren’t. Some of the people on our side aren’t too bright, either. Some of us, like me, started on one side and ended up on the other.
So the broad strokes simplification doesn’t really help anything.
Someone vetting his own wisdom with his intellect qualifies as what you say you don’t respect. That sounds hostile to art and its virtues.
Someone vetting his own wisdom with his intellect qualifies as what you say you don’t respect. That sounds hostile to art and its virtues.
Rob Brown,
Most of the people who post here regularly are more liberal than conservative. You’ve left a few names off the list who I would think are also frustrated with what has happened. I think you do them a dis-service by naming just a few.
If Bill Myers was in my social circle, I think we’d be friends despite our few differences in opinion.
=======================================
One of the people I most respect is a Republican. Thursday, he was ranting that all the politicians were crooks, out to get as much as possible for themselves, and to screw the country and the little man. Does he actually believe this? Nope, we’ve discussed it before. He is a moderate. What he is is scared—he was near the edge of losing his home last year, until he got a new job with a raise. But he is heavily, and I mean HEAVILY invested in the stock market. I think he is even more fearful of losing his home than ever before. His personal reputation is the most important thing to him after his family and God. It would crush him to be seen as a failure, even though I think all the people in his life would forgive him if he lost his home.
There is no justification for targeting one’s political criticism toward people on the basis of their regional origin, any more than on the basis of how much melanin they have in their epidermis. The fact that the latter is protected by political correctness and the former is not does not mean that focusing on other superficial aspects of people’ demographics is veridically valid.
Just because a majority (What, 51%?) in a given state elected electors that put Bush in office does not mean that there aren’t millions of people in that state who voted Democrat, and are just as disgusted at the GOP, or that conversely, that there aren’t large numbers of Republicans in the blue states who voted the same way, but whose electors were not able to contribute to the GOP victories.
It is for this reason that criticism should be based on behavior, of a given politican or party. Focusing on such things as region of origin is indefensible, both intellectually and morally. Directing one’s anger at “rednecks”, means that people like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are absolved of culpability for the things they do and say.
Yes, I know that that is the way you feel, Rob. But this, combined with the fact that you concede that it is bereft of logic or sense is why it is not reasonable to call it “truth”. We all have tendencies toward prejudicial thinking. But we are also required to be skeptical of ourselves enough to view such tendencies with a sense of detachment.
There is no justification for targeting one’s political criticism toward people on the basis of their regional origin, any more than on the basis of how much melanin they have in their epidermis. The fact that the latter is protected by political correctness and the former is not does not mean that focusing on other superficial aspects of people’ demographics is veridically valid.
Just because a majority (What, 51%?) in a given state elected electors that put Bush in office does not mean that there aren’t millions of people in that state who voted Democrat, and are just as disgusted at the GOP, or that conversely, that there aren’t large numbers of Republicans in the blue states who voted the same way, but whose electors were not able to contribute to the GOP victories.
It is for this reason that criticism should be based on behavior, of a given politican or party. Focusing on such things as region of origin is indefensible, both intellectually and morally. Directing one’s anger at “rednecks”, means that people like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are absolved of culpability for the things they do and say.
Yes, I know that that is the way you feel, Rob. But this, combined with the fact that you concede that it is bereft of logic or sense is why it is not reasonable to call it “truth”. We all have tendencies toward prejudicial thinking. But we are also required to be skeptical of ourselves enough to view such tendencies with a sense of detachment.
My weekly catch-up post:
Posted by Bill Mulligan
yeah, when it was hit by an accidentally fired missile. Fired by an aircraft that was on the other side of the carrier. Astonishing. Unable to stop missiles with his force of will. And some call this man a hero???
Hey, i didn’t say it was his fault. I was just a little more pointedly pointing out the absurdity of blaming him, as some seem to be doing.
Posted by Rob Brown
I think it’s reasonable to chalk that up to bad luck. But I also think that examining how he reacted in that crisis in comparison with other people on the ship is fair game. I’ve seen more than one version of the story and it’s impossible to know exactly what happened unless you were there. If the Rolling Stone article is right, however, he did significantly less to fight the fire and save lives than the rest of the crew.
Considering where he was and what was going on, just getting out alive and more-or-less intact was a pretty decent achievement. I believe he had some burns, though i don’t know how severe.
Posted by Bill Mulligan
Actually, it’s easily available to watch on video. It may even be on youtube.
How much can you see of McCain once everything gets pear-shaped?
Posted by Jason M. Bryant
Okay, maybe not “nutball,” but I’ve seen a couple different reporters say that [Ahmadinejad is] considered an embarrassment in Iran, in kinda the same way that many people in the USA consider Bush an embarrassment.
But do people who say that get banned from alJazeera?
Posted by Bill Mulligan
the truth is simple enough–if you are a Chicago politician you are probably going to have some unsavory characters in your circle of associates.
My old hometown – where i’d bet that my great-grandfather who died before i was born still votes the straight Machine ticket every election. The city where the premier department store (Marshall Fields, RIP) had a cafe/bar named after a famous Prohibition-era crooked alderman in its basement shopping court. (Hinky Dink’s)
I also don’t worry about the connection with the Alaska secessionists because I have a hard time taking them seriously. It seems like they know secession is never going to happen, so they’re just kinda playing around with the idea.
Ummm, didn’t at least one prominent member get himself killed in an illegal explosives deal gone wrong? That sort of thing kinda worries me…
You must not live in a potential swing state. We are at the point where we get the same ads for the same politicians running right after each other! If those banks had invested in the ad companies making political ads the Dow would be at 15,000.
Back in the ’60s, my mother as producer and head writer for the South Carolina State Democratic Delegation’s joint campaign.
She used production facilities and technical staff and voice talent at WFBC radio/TV. (Often she used rradio production facilities at WMUU, the Bob Jones University campus station, but she probably felt that the Democrat campiagn wouldn’t be welcome there…). A lot of other political campaigns were also using WFBC – including several mnor candidates who were apparently writing and producing their own advertising. (This falls in the same “a fool for a client” category as being your own attorney.)
One day she heard someone in a station corridor exclaim “I wish to Christ they’d all lose!”
Posted by Tim Lynch
Specifically, Jerry, while the probe found she abused her power it also found that no laws were broken. Look for both sides to claim victory on that one.
Palin, herself, didn’t break any laws. I’m not sure that it said no laws had been broken. Just not by her. Cue the “turbulent priest” speech and bring the basin for the washing of hands…
Posted by Bill Myers
Since the death of my maternal grandfather I’ve wondered if I, who grew up comfortably middle class without ever knowing true hardship, could rise to challenges of the magnitude that my grandfather met and overcame during the Great Depression
Both of my grandfathers managed to hold onto their (very good) jons throughout the Depression – my mother’s father was one of the chief engineers in chartge of maintenance at the Cleveland power company, and my dad’s was a union electrician at the Chicago power company… (Though Grandpa Weber was only about four numbers away from ebing laid off when the layoofs finally ended.) Dad said that the union put together food baskets to take to the families of laid-off members, and that Grandpa said that one guy said “Thank god you came – if we didn’t have food by tomorrow I was going to get out my .45 and go get some.”
Posted by Rick Keating
By the way, I’ve actually encountered people who’ve used the phrase “Christians and Catholics.”
When we moved South in 1955, one of the fascinating things we encountered (along with people misspelling our name – no, not “Webber” – “Welborn”) was the number of people who, when they asked what church we attended (meaning, probably, which Southern Baptist parish) and informed that we were Episcopalina, would ask “Is that Christian?”
Posted by Rick Keating
Those who say “Christians and Catholics” imply that Catholics don’t worship Jesus, that they have no connection with Christianity.
Well, of course they don’t. They worship Mary – didn’t you know?
(“Pete – I’m seeing a lot of people on the golden streets that I told you not to let in.” “Well, yeah, Boss, I know – I tell ’em they can’t come in, but they go ’round to the side door and your Mom lets ’em in…”)
Posted by Tim Lynch
I was IN THE POOL!
What – was the water cold?
Posted by Craig J. Ries
When it comes to getting out the vote, abortion is getting to be a non-starter. Haven’t polls shown that a majority of people are now in favor of abortion rights?
Or at least sick and tired of the screaming in their ears.
Posted by Alan Coil
Sorry, Bill Myers, but I gotta stick with the words red neck.
A red neck, in my opinion, is not just somebody with a red coloring to the nape of their neck. They are bigots. They hate anything not like themselves. Their anger at the rest of the world is palpable. They thrive on bringing down anything or anybody they do not like.
To some extent my dad’s Chicago family were Northern urban rednecks – not surprising when you’re working class in what’s been called “the country’s most racist city”. Peter Fonda said, after shooting parts of “Easy Rider” in the South – “Not everyone with a Southern accent is a redneck … and not all rednecks live in the South.”
(Back when i worked for Wolf Photo i used to develop Jeff Foxworthy’s vacation pics…)
My weekly catch-up post:
Posted by Bill Mulligan
yeah, when it was hit by an accidentally fired missile. Fired by an aircraft that was on the other side of the carrier. Astonishing. Unable to stop missiles with his force of will. And some call this man a hero???
Hey, i didn’t say it was his fault. I was just a little more pointedly pointing out the absurdity of blaming him, as some seem to be doing.
Posted by Rob Brown
I think it’s reasonable to chalk that up to bad luck. But I also think that examining how he reacted in that crisis in comparison with other people on the ship is fair game. I’ve seen more than one version of the story and it’s impossible to know exactly what happened unless you were there. If the Rolling Stone article is right, however, he did significantly less to fight the fire and save lives than the rest of the crew.
Considering where he was and what was going on, just getting out alive and more-or-less intact was a pretty decent achievement. I believe he had some burns, though i don’t know how severe.
Posted by Bill Mulligan
Actually, it’s easily available to watch on video. It may even be on youtube.
How much can you see of McCain once everything gets pear-shaped?
Posted by Jason M. Bryant
Okay, maybe not “nutball,” but I’ve seen a couple different reporters say that [Ahmadinejad is] considered an embarrassment in Iran, in kinda the same way that many people in the USA consider Bush an embarrassment.
But do people who say that get banned from alJazeera?
Posted by Bill Mulligan
the truth is simple enough–if you are a Chicago politician you are probably going to have some unsavory characters in your circle of associates.
My old hometown – where i’d bet that my great-grandfather who died before i was born still votes the straight Machine ticket every election. The city where the premier department store (Marshall Fields, RIP) had a cafe/bar named after a famous Prohibition-era crooked alderman in its basement shopping court. (Hinky Dink’s)
I also don’t worry about the connection with the Alaska secessionists because I have a hard time taking them seriously. It seems like they know secession is never going to happen, so they’re just kinda playing around with the idea.
Ummm, didn’t at least one prominent member get himself killed in an illegal explosives deal gone wrong? That sort of thing kinda worries me…
You must not live in a potential swing state. We are at the point where we get the same ads for the same politicians running right after each other! If those banks had invested in the ad companies making political ads the Dow would be at 15,000.
Back in the ’60s, my mother as producer and head writer for the South Carolina State Democratic Delegation’s joint campaign.
She used production facilities and technical staff and voice talent at WFBC radio/TV. (Often she used rradio production facilities at WMUU, the Bob Jones University campus station, but she probably felt that the Democrat campiagn wouldn’t be welcome there…). A lot of other political campaigns were also using WFBC – including several mnor candidates who were apparently writing and producing their own advertising. (This falls in the same “a fool for a client” category as being your own attorney.)
One day she heard someone in a station corridor exclaim “I wish to Christ they’d all lose!”
Posted by Tim Lynch
Specifically, Jerry, while the probe found she abused her power it also found that no laws were broken. Look for both sides to claim victory on that one.
Palin, herself, didn’t break any laws. I’m not sure that it said no laws had been broken. Just not by her. Cue the “turbulent priest” speech and bring the basin for the washing of hands…
Posted by Bill Myers
Since the death of my maternal grandfather I’ve wondered if I, who grew up comfortably middle class without ever knowing true hardship, could rise to challenges of the magnitude that my grandfather met and overcame during the Great Depression
Both of my grandfathers managed to hold onto their (very good) jons throughout the Depression – my mother’s father was one of the chief engineers in chartge of maintenance at the Cleveland power company, and my dad’s was a union electrician at the Chicago power company… (Though Grandpa Weber was only about four numbers away from ebing laid off when the layoofs finally ended.) Dad said that the union put together food baskets to take to the families of laid-off members, and that Grandpa said that one guy said “Thank god you came – if we didn’t have food by tomorrow I was going to get out my .45 and go get some.”
Posted by Rick Keating
By the way, I’ve actually encountered people who’ve used the phrase “Christians and Catholics.”
When we moved South in 1955, one of the fascinating things we encountered (along with people misspelling our name – no, not “Webber” – “Welborn”) was the number of people who, when they asked what church we attended (meaning, probably, which Southern Baptist parish) and informed that we were Episcopalina, would ask “Is that Christian?”
Posted by Rick Keating
Those who say “Christians and Catholics” imply that Catholics don’t worship Jesus, that they have no connection with Christianity.
Well, of course they don’t. They worship Mary – didn’t you know?
(“Pete – I’m seeing a lot of people on the golden streets that I told you not to let in.” “Well, yeah, Boss, I know – I tell ’em they can’t come in, but they go ’round to the side door and your Mom lets ’em in…”)
Posted by Tim Lynch
I was IN THE POOL!
What – was the water cold?
Posted by Craig J. Ries
When it comes to getting out the vote, abortion is getting to be a non-starter. Haven’t polls shown that a majority of people are now in favor of abortion rights?
Or at least sick and tired of the screaming in their ears.
Posted by Alan Coil
Sorry, Bill Myers, but I gotta stick with the words red neck.
A red neck, in my opinion, is not just somebody with a red coloring to the nape of their neck. They are bigots. They hate anything not like themselves. Their anger at the rest of the world is palpable. They thrive on bringing down anything or anybody they do not like.
To some extent my dad’s Chicago family were Northern urban rednecks – not surprising when you’re working class in what’s been called “the country’s most racist city”. Peter Fonda said, after shooting parts of “Easy Rider” in the South – “Not everyone with a Southern accent is a redneck … and not all rednecks live in the South.”
(Back when i worked for Wolf Photo i used to develop Jeff Foxworthy’s vacation pics…)
(“Pete – I’m seeing a lot of people on the golden streets that I told you not to let in.” “Well, yeah, Boss, I know – I tell ’em they can’t come in, but they go ’round to the side door and your Mom lets ’em in…”)
heh! I mean…not funny! Haven’t you read Jack Chick’s expose THE DEATH COOKIE that ties Catholicism with the worship of Ishtar, the rise of Islam, freemasonry, Mormonism, the Secret Plan to eliminate all protestants, etc etc.
(“Pete – I’m seeing a lot of people on the golden streets that I told you not to let in.” “Well, yeah, Boss, I know – I tell ’em they can’t come in, but they go ’round to the side door and your Mom lets ’em in…”)
heh! I mean…not funny! Haven’t you read Jack Chick’s expose THE DEATH COOKIE that ties Catholicism with the worship of Ishtar, the rise of Islam, freemasonry, Mormonism, the Secret Plan to eliminate all protestants, etc etc.
What?! Where do they come up with this stuff?
What?! Where do they come up with this stuff?
What’s scary is that Jack Chick may well be the most read comic book writer of all time. Ok, that’s highly arguable and I’d rather believe it was anyone else. Todd MacFarlane, anyone. If his claim of having sold 750 million of those tracts is to be believed he has to be in the top 5.
What’s scary is that Jack Chick may well be the most read comic book writer of all time. Ok, that’s highly arguable and I’d rather believe it was anyone else. Todd MacFarlane, anyone. If his claim of having sold 750 million of those tracts is to be believed he has to be in the top 5.
“If his claim of having sold 750 million of those tracts is to be believed he has to be in the top 5.”
I’ve always heard the high numbers that his supporters throw around and brushed them off as nonsense. He may well have documented sales figures in that range, but I seriously doubt that his sales = readers. We had several churches in my area that were bulk buying that crap for years and sending the faithful out to stick the things on car windows at the local shopping centers.
When I worked for K-Mart back in 90 and 91; we had those things on every car in the shopping center’s lot by midday more than a few times and by closing time you could find most of them on the ground. I still get the stupid things stuck under my wiper blades at major mall parking lots at various times of the year.
October is always a busy time for ’em. And that’s a good thing my friends. You have no idea how much money I save on firelighters in November.
“If his claim of having sold 750 million of those tracts is to be believed he has to be in the top 5.”
I’ve always heard the high numbers that his supporters throw around and brushed them off as nonsense. He may well have documented sales figures in that range, but I seriously doubt that his sales = readers. We had several churches in my area that were bulk buying that crap for years and sending the faithful out to stick the things on car windows at the local shopping centers.
When I worked for K-Mart back in 90 and 91; we had those things on every car in the shopping center’s lot by midday more than a few times and by closing time you could find most of them on the ground. I still get the stupid things stuck under my wiper blades at major mall parking lots at various times of the year.
October is always a busy time for ’em. And that’s a good thing my friends. You have no idea how much money I save on firelighters in November.
I find Chick’s ramblings fascinating, especially the older ones drawn by some guy who was way too good for the material (I believe his name is Fred Carter). The EC style “shock endings”, the “Haw haw”s, the way God looks a lot like Dormammu…it’s a Henry Darger kind of crazy, worth a look.
Now, I don’t suggest paying for them. Send a letter to Chick publications, act like the biggest jerk on the planet and they will send you a whole box of them. Also an invoice, which you can ignore.
I find Chick’s ramblings fascinating, especially the older ones drawn by some guy who was way too good for the material (I believe his name is Fred Carter). The EC style “shock endings”, the “Haw haw”s, the way God looks a lot like Dormammu…it’s a Henry Darger kind of crazy, worth a look.
Now, I don’t suggest paying for them. Send a letter to Chick publications, act like the biggest jerk on the planet and they will send you a whole box of them. Also an invoice, which you can ignore.
Alan Coil: “Most of the people who post here regularly are more liberal than conservative. You’ve left a few names off the list who I would think are also frustrated with what has happened. I think you do them a dis-service by naming just a few.”
I know a number of conservative/Republicans who are disgusted with the Bush administration and have been for a few years. With approval ratings in the low 20s, it stands to reason that more than a few Republicans have lost any confidence they may have had in George W.
Alan Coil: “If Bill Myers was in my social circle, I think we’d be friends despite our few differences in opinion.”
I agree that differences of opinion with respect to politics, religion, art, etc. shouldn’t prevent people from being friends.
Rob Brown: “I hope that people can understand that even if they don’t agree with it. It’s just the way I feel.”
Rob, we’re all responsible for our own emotions. “It’s just the way I feel” simply isn’t an adequate justification for small-mindedness. Frankly, you exhibit many of the same traits that most people associate with “rednecks:” small-mindedness, intolerance, and ignorance.
You seem to be an intelligent enough person and I hope that you will reconsider your “position” towards those with whom you disagree. Not because you’re hurting me — you most certainly are not — but because I suspect your excessive anger and hositility are hurting you.
Palin, herself, didn’t break any laws. I’m not sure that it said no laws had been broken. Just not by her.
True enough.
In other news — I know that certain folks here like the esteemed Mr. Mulligan don’t care for Paul Krugman’s work in the slightest, but apparently the Nobel Committee thinks differently — he just won the Nobel in Economics this morning. Interesting times.
TWL
Palin, herself, didn’t break any laws. I’m not sure that it said no laws had been broken. Just not by her.
True enough.
In other news — I know that certain folks here like the esteemed Mr. Mulligan don’t care for Paul Krugman’s work in the slightest, but apparently the Nobel Committee thinks differently — he just won the Nobel in Economics this morning. Interesting times.
TWL
I googled this Jack Chick guy, and I noticed that the way he sees the Catholic Church is very similar to the way antisemites view Jews — as this invisible power that is responsible for everthing. My sympathy to catholics.
But this led me to the obvious conclusion: fill in the blanks hate tracts. Yes, why waste money rewriting and reprinting hate tracts to fit different demographics when you can send a hate tract with blanks and a crayon and have the kids at home fill in the blanks with the groups of their choice. That way the average hate-monger can target a much larger audience, and it’s also good for the environment. It’s a sure money making deal.
In other news — I know that certain folks here like the esteemed Mr. Mulligan don’t care for Paul Krugman’s work in the slightest, but apparently the Nobel Committee thinks differently — he just won the Nobel in Economics this morning. Interesting times.
Not at all; I think he’s a fine economist. As a political pundit I also think he’s a fine economist.
I sure wish they’d listen to his ideas to get us out of this mess. I’m not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, but his proposals all seem like common sense to me. Something this country has had in short supply for some time now.
I can’t believe I missed the countdown clock going into double digits for the wonderful day Bush leaves the White House. How could I let that slip past me?
It’s like the “gay mafia” and the “homintern”. Seems to be the standard operational procedure: get the group you hate, and make it into an international conspiracy responsible for everything evil.
There’s a big market on eBay for old, first edition Chick Tracts. And a book was written about them.
I have seen them left in bathrooms at various places, including where I used to work.
I;ve read about 20 of them. You just have to roll your eyes at most of the stuff they promote.
Posted by Bill Mulligan; brought up again by Bill Myers:
“the truth is simple enough–if you are a Chicago politician you are probably going to have some unsavory characters in your circle of associates.”
In any big city, a politician will meet up with unsavory characters. Toledo, Ohio, was the home of Republican Tom Noe, who was accused and convicted of illegally using state money by funneling that money to the Bush campaign for, I believe, the 2004 election. (His business was just off the expressway on my way to work, and I knew one of the people on the Grand Jury that indicted him.)
Dammit.
That was brought up again by Mike Weber.
Sorry to both those guys.
“homintern”?
I’ve never heard that one.
Never heard of Jack Chick before.
It’s a weird world out there, I guess.
I’m thinking of printing out some of these tracts and handing them to preachers at shopping centers…
http://www.fredvanlente.com/cthulhutract/pages/index.html
Jonathon, that’s hysterical. Thanks for the link.
Guys like Jack Chick and Fred Phelps, yeah. Now and again we see the appearance of someone that looks like a cartoon character, so ridiculous and extreme are his views. It would be funnier if their views were not so widespread.
The Cthullu comic is hillarious, though.
Jonathan (the other one),
That’s great. I have to print that off and make it into a booklet.
~8?)`
Micha,
You’ve likely seen them even if the name dosn’t ring any bells.
http://www.chick.com/default.asp
I learned the cocaine and heroin can be combined to make speedball from a Jack Chick comic.
Little bit late responding to these comments, sorry about that.
Jason M. Bryant: When one guy and his son are literally *playing* with a taser, I’m more than willing to call that guy a redneck. When his wife and sister in law are playing out an episode of Judge Judy’s Trailer Trash Theatre, I’ll call the whole family rednecks.
But let’s not call everyone who politically disagrees with us rednecks.
Some of them are. Some of them aren’t. Some of the people on our side aren’t too bright, either. Some of us, like me, started on one side and ended up on the other.
Wouldn’t dream of it, which is why I said that “a lot of” people in those states fit that description, rather than saying “all of the people” or “most of the people”. Even feeling the way I do, I’m still capable of realizing that the entire population of a state can’t be pigeonholed into one category.
mike weber: Considering where he was and what was going on, just getting out alive and more-or-less intact was a pretty decent achievement. I believe he had some burns, though i don’t know how severe.
He may have, but the article didn’t mention it. It did say that he was ambulatory. Rolling Stone says “McCain, who knew more than most pilots about bailing out of a crippled aircraft, leapt forward out of the cockpit, swung himself down from the refueling probe protruding from the nose cone, rolled through the flames and ran to safety across the flight deck. Just then, one of his bombs “cooked off,” blowing a crater in the deck and incinerating the sailors who had rushed past McCain with hoses and fire extinguishers. McCain was stung by tiny bits of shrapnel in his legs and chest, but the wounds weren’t serious; his father would later report to friends that Johnny ‘came through without a scratch.'”
It goes on to say…
“McCain displayed little of Hope’s valor. Although he would soon regale The New York Times with tales of the heroism of the brave enlisted men who ‘stayed to help the pilots fight the fire,’ McCain took no part in dousing the flames himself. After going belowdecks and briefly helping sailors who were frantically trying to unload bombs from an elevator to the flight deck, McCain retreated to the safety of the ‘ready room,’ where off-duty pilots spent their noncombat hours talking trash and playing poker. There, McCain watched the conflagration unfold on the room’s closed-circuit television — bearing distant witness to the valiant self-sacrifice of others who died trying to save the ship, pushing jets into the sea to keep their bombs from exploding on deck.
“As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. ‘This distressed me considerably,’ he recalls in Faith of My Fathers.
‘I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal.'”
Alan Coil: Most of the people who post here regularly are more liberal than conservative. You’ve left a few names off the list who I would think are also frustrated with what has happened. I think you do them a dis-service by naming just a few.
I’m sorry to those I didn’t mention. I did worry about that, but I realized that I didn’t really know for sure where everybody stood politically, so I only mentioned the names of those people I remembered and whose beliefs I was aware of. For instance, on the scale of conservative to liberal (and also making the distinction between social conservative or liberal, fiscal conservative or liberal, fiscal *and* social conservative or liberal, etc.), I didn’t know exactly where Bill Mulligan fell on that scale. I don’t say that intending any offense to Bill, and I hope that it doesn’t cause offense. I’m just saying that I didn’t know. I knew he was voting for Obama this year, but Obama’s managed to appeal to a wide range of people rather than just liberals.
I’d probably have a better idea if I spent more time here and read more of the posts, but I’ve been kind of sporadic in terms of participating in discussions here.
Bill Myers: Rob, we’re all responsible for our own emotions. “It’s just the way I feel” simply isn’t an adequate justification for small-mindedness.
But Bill, the thing is that we can’t turn emotions on and off. We can work on these things, we can try to change, we can see shrinks and see how well we do in growing into better people. But as Spock and McCoy established decades ago (or centuries in the future, depending on how you look at it), emotions aren’t logical.
I’ll give you an example. I believe gay marriage should be legal. I’m also not uncomfortable with the idea of gay people getting married, so that works out fine. But I know that there are other people who are uncomfortable with gay people getting married. Not all of those people ty to stop gay marriage, though. Some of them do realize that there’s no good reason for feeling uncomfortable about it, no logical reason. They say to themselves “I don’t know why this makes me uncomfortable. I wish it didn’t, because it doesn’t make sense and I know it isn’t fair to deny them the right to get married that I have…but I’d still feel uncomfortable at a wedding, or if I passed by a wedding.”
These people don’t vote against gay marriage (although they might not be able to bring themselves to vote *for* it) and they don’t protest gay marriage. They just feel a certain way about it. I’m not going to judge them for how they feel, as long as feeling that way doesn’t make them DO something bad.
I’d consider John Edwards to be an example of this kind of person, and I have a great deal of respect for John Edwards. Here’s what he said on the subject in one interview with George Stephanopoulos:
EDWARDS: Because I’m 53 years old. I grew up in a small town in the rural south. I was raised in the southern Baptist church. And so I have a belief system that arises from that.
It’s part of who I am. I can’t make it disappear. And what I said when I was asked about this in Portsmouth, New Hampshire//
[John Edwards in New Hampshire: I personally feel great conflict about that. I don’t know the answer, I wish I did. I think from my perspective it’s very easy for me to say civil unions, yes, partnership benefits yes, but it is something that I struggle with.]
Do I believe they should have the right to marry? I’m just not there yet, me, I’m not there yet.
I’m glad that he feels conflict about it, and I’m glad that he wants everybody to have the same rights under the law even if it’s “civil unions”. I mean, I *wish* he were able to feel more comfortable with it, but he isn’t and I accept that. I don’t believe he’s doing anything to *hurt* LGBT rights (although a case could be made that if you’re not part of the solution then you’re part of the problem, I guess), and he’s certainly not anything like Jesse Helms or Rick Santorum or any of those asshats.
First step towards dealing with the problem is realizing it’s there and admitting it. In my case with my opinion of red states and my idea of what people in them are like, I think I’ve done that. It’s not a noteworthy accomplishment in itself, but it’s a start. In Edwards’ case with gay marriage, the fact that he says he isn’t there “yet” seems to imply that he’s trying to get there, which I think is good.
Yesterday, it was Ayers.
Today, it’s ACORN.
What will the right-wing try and tie Obama to tomorrow?
Another article on ACORN:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/10/facts_about_acorn_and_alleged.php
The thing to note is that, BY LAW, ACORN is not allowed to throw away ANY registration. At most, they can mark them as questionable and pass them on to the state government. Which is, in fact, what they do.
OK. Another thing. Vast majority of rejected registrations are duplicates and illegible registrations. In my book, that’s not particularly fraudulent.
For instance, on the scale of conservative to liberal (and also making the distinction between social conservative or liberal, fiscal conservative or liberal, fiscal *and* social conservative or liberal, etc.), I didn’t know exactly where Bill Mulligan fell on that scale. I don’t say that intending any offense to Bill, and I hope that it doesn’t cause offense. I’m just saying that I didn’t know.
No offense. I follow the principals of Billism; all should bow to the wisdom of Bill! Surprisingly, it has very few adherents. When the world is mine many will know what it is to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!
As for John Edwards gay problem, I suspect taht when he says “I’m not there yet.” it can be interpreted as “I’m not in the White House yet and I’m afraid that if I come out for gay marriage I’ll never get there so vote for me and maybe I’ll find the courage to do what I actually believe is right. Probably not though, since there will never be a time when it won’t cost me political capital and as long as the gays vote for me anyway why should I stick my neck out?”
Not that there’s much chance of us ever finding out what Mr. Edwards would do as president.
I love how Palin is saying that Obama should do something about ACORN, and that (like Ayers) there is obviously more to the story.
And yet, what is Obama supposed to do, exactly?
He’s supposed to “rein in” ACORN, Palin says. Umm, yeah, like Bush was expected to control the Swift Boat Vets, right?
“Micha,
You’ve likely seen them even if the name dosn’t ring any bells.”
Not really. Although I pride myself on having pretty good general knowledge, I actually know very little about the evangelical movement and about religiosity in the US beyond the fact that they exist as a political force. I’m unaware of the details of their belief. Most of my knowledge of Christianity comes from studies of European history, not the present.
So, although I’m not completely surprised to find hard feelings for Catholicism among modern protestants, I had no idea what form it takes today, or its extent.
I also have little knowledge of gay sub-culture, although my sister, who has several gay friends sometimes informs my ignorance.