When the early photos from the revival of “Doctor Who” were released, fan pronouncements were dire. Most of it centered around his clothing, which didn’t look vaguely Victorian or quaint. And British fans, according to SFX magazine, dismissed Billie Piper as “a has-been teen popstrel.”
Well, we just got done watching all 13 episodes of the first season, and boy, did it kick ášš. (Yes, we got unauthorized DVDs. We do that on occasion when it’s something we reeeeally want to see. However, if it shows up in authorized version, we always buy it so the producers get our money.)
What is it about fans, anyway, that there’s always so much nay-saying and prejudging? In TV shows, in comics. This incredible urge to greet any word of change or trying something different with a resounding, “It’s gonna suck.” You’d think that they’d eventually learn to way and see the final product, but no. No, every time something different is done it’s “They’re changing it, it’s going to be terrible.”
Sheesh.
PAD
• 
DVDs will be out on Valentine’s day in the United States. And I, personally, didn’t say anything negative about the new Who before I saw it, because I, personally, wasn’t willing to believe it existed until I saw it. We were burned too many times in the past.
I’d argue that change in TV, Comics, etc usually does suck. However that is part of taking a risk and that is what you have to do to strike gold. However for every success there are hundreds of examples of tv shows “jumping the shark” or story lines in comics that are quickly forgotten. I do agree that fans need to lay off a bit and have more of a wait and see attitude though.
As mentioned, the DVD set will be out in February and I can’t wait. I’ve been…watching them as they came out, and just watched the excellent Christmas episode and it is great.
I think the point you’re making is very good. Fans can go off on a tizzy at the drop of the hat and more often then not their fears are laid to rest. It reminds me of the reactions to the first X-men movies when the uniforms were shown.
Great to see the series getting a nice note here in the USA. Yeah thanks to ebay I got the unauthorized privledge to see the 13 eps and for the first time in years got to see some great Who action. Really wish SCIFI or USA would pick it up for everyone to see legitimatily. Again thanks to ebay I’ve got the Christmas Invasion special already enroute and I’m hoping this is the year the show gets its 2nd season shown here in the US. If not I hope a bad wolf comes and blows their houses down.(just kidding there, too many bad winds blew through last year so none of that now)
There’s always that percentage of fans who expect a franchise series to go on for decades without any changes. Which is a hypocritical demand; “their” Dr. Who (or Trek, or X-Men, or…) is the version that was in play when they were kids and first got hooked. Would they have become fans if they had started off with the franchise’s original incarnation? Probably not.
But let’s also scold those creators and publishers who denigrate and dismiss negative reactions from longstanding fans instead of stopping to consider that instead of Radically Re-Conceiving the Character, maybe they’re just turning Coke into New Coke. New Coke wasn’t Coke; it was a super-sweet cola. If Coke drinkers liked that sort of thing then they would have been drinking Pepsi to begin with.
Sometimes a big revamps is an example of taking a product (yes, a comic book is a product) that millions of people know and love and turning it into something that nobody has any use for, solely because the maker can’t think of any other ideas that’ll sell.
(And yes, I can’t help but think of the changes that have been made to Spider-Man. I’ve dropped the book from my pull list and it’s not because I’m Resistant to Change and it’s not even a form of protest. It’s because (a) I hated my first taste of the new product, and (b) I’m under no obligation to keep buying it month after month. No harm, no foul, and I’m sure that all of the Spidey books will continue to sell just fine without my $2.99.)
They won’t revitalize the 007 franchise by re-casting James Bond as a hot babe with a bionic arm and a jive-talking robot sidekick. They’ll revitalize the Bond franchise by figuring out what it is that makes the character special and making sure that all of your decisions flow from that understanding.
Witness the enormous success of “Batman Begins.” They didn’t pull off that miracle by doing anything revolutionary or even anything particularly flashy with the character: all they did was make — finally! — a dámņëd great Batman movie with a high level of craftsmanship.
It happens all the times with ‘fans’ and ‘critics’. They make up their mind to hate something if it deviates from their glorious ideal.
If I read a film\media review that starts with, “I’ve been reviewing XYZ for over XYZ years, and this is the worst…” I automatically make a mental note to go and see the thing in question; if only because I’m so vilely set against anyone justifying their so-called expertise to vilify something that isn’t ‘theirs’.
The new Doctor Who series; when I saw the first episode I couldn’t quite decide if I liked it or not. Yes, it felt British sci-fi-like. Yes, Christopher Ecclestone had that something about him. But it was… different.
By the end of the second episode I was hooked. A hidden story in the past, ‘fantastic!’ aliens, intriguing stories… and as the series went on, ‘Bad Wolf’ tied into it, to give you something to follow and actually talk about between episodes (the only other show we talk about between episodes is Lost…)
I remember the fan-stink (literally) when, in the 8th Doctor movie they said the Doctor was half human, and he kissed Grace. The fans didn’t know what was worse; that their hero could have some sort of ‘change’ when he changes his body, or that he could kiss a girl when they couldn’t…
Still the writer of the new series got his revenge in the final episode…
Rose: You mean they’re… half human?
Big Bad: Those words are blasphemy!
(NB: Censored Big Bad for those who haven’t seen it yet. Obvsiously, it’s not called the Big Bad. That would be Bad. And upset the Buffy fans. And we don’t want to upset the Buffy fans…)
When the series was aired there was a very positive reaction to it. I think that most people were just pleased to see it back on screen and to see sci-fi that was not American (no offence but variety and all that).
There are obsessive fans to all shows, sometimes people could do with remembering it’s all made up! Well, we hope so otherwise I’ll be the first in line to be exterminated.
Like Mr. David, I bought the illicit DVDs, and loved the whole season. (Yes, I’m going to buy the legit ones, too.) I was in Ireland over Christmas and watched the Christmas Special introducing David Tennant as the new Doctor with my wife, who’s not a fan, much. It was terrific. Tennant is fabulous as he tries to discover what he’s like in this personality, and even my wife thought it was good. This is- and deserves to be- a huge success for everyone involved, and anyone who’s a fan should be looking forward to seeing this- or looking for a copy, one or the other.
I’ve never watched any of the various Doctor Who incarnations, mostly because I have no idea where or when to begin.
I’m enormously tempted to get the DVD set in February and jump in with the latest incarnation. It sounds great to me.
But yeah, PAD, I agree with the sentiment you’re expressing. Another prime example of the phenomenon you cite is Battlestar Galactica. When it was announced that Ron Moore and David Eick were reimagining the series, and then that Starbuck was going to be a woman (as was Boomer), fan outcry and boycotts were extemely vocal. Richard Hatch was outspoken about it…understandable, since he’s spent about 20 years trying to relaunch the series.
But even he was turned around and became a great character on the show in the form of Tom Zarek.
BSG has become my favorite show currently on television. Absolutely phenomenal and engrossing show, delving into themes of sex, religion, faith, loyalty, family, politics, and more, longtime fans be dámņëd. 🙂
Whoa! And I thought Australia was late in getting this great new series. Good to know we weren’t last for once 🙂
(Fair’s fair – we sometimes wait 3 or 4 months for mainstream movies to paddle ‘cross the Pacific.)
And Michael Cravens stole exactly what I was going to say about Battlestar Galactica. We even had people writing to the newspapers here, complaining about that one….
Glad you enjoyed the new incarnation, PAD (and everyone else). My wife has never watched Doctor Who in her life but even she loved this one! I suppose it’s indicative of the quality you get when people with reverence for a product are allowed to proceed, rather than people who just want to make a quick bush. Sorry, “buck”. (Freudian slip there….)
JB
PS: Happy New Year!
I think a lot of the negative reaction about Dr Who stemmed from the casting of Billie Piper, but you’d have to live in the UK to comprehend what an awful idea that sounds like on paper.
She wasn’t an actress, she was a manufactured teeny-bob pop-star, the sort that exemplifies the worst excesses of the music industry today, the sort that fills the airwaves and music channels with horrible soul-less music so there’s no room for real musicians.
For this she was already disliked by many, and add to that the fact that we’d seen zero demonstration of any acting ability from her, and it seemed like a piece of stunt casting to encourage the demographic that bought her music to tune in too.
Of course, after a few episodes aired, everyone realised she was actually dámņ good and stopped moaning!
“Witness the enormous success of “Batman Begins.” They didn’t pull off that miracle by doing anything revolutionary or even anything particularly flashy with the character: all they did was make — finally! — a dámņëd great Batman movie with a high level of craftsmanship.”
Unnnn hunh. I see. Nothing remotely revolutionary or flashy.
You’re forgetting something:
The costume.
When the movie costume for the Tim Burton “Batman” was first unveiled back in the day….ohhhhh my God, the howling. The bìŧçhìņg. The pìššìņg and moaning. What do you mean he’s in armor?! What do you means he’s not in grey and blue? It’s all BLACK How boring! It’s not spandex, like it’s supposed to be; it looks like plastic! And the cowl is just this unmoving thing on his shoulders with no peripheral vision! And what’s with those stupid make-up rings around the eyes. Say it with me: WORST COSTUME EVER!
That’s what they were saying back then. And that was essentially the costume worn in “Batman Begins.” And if the preceding Batman films had never happened–if this was the very first full length Batman feature film in the last forty years–that is EXACTLY what they would have been saying now. You know it and I know it. Would they have changed their minds once seeing the film? Probably. But that’s not the point. The point remains exactly what I said in the first place: Fans are quick to prejudge and to condemn that which represents change.
“Batman Begins” isn’t back to the basics of Batman. It’s back to the basics of the Batman feature film franchise before it got screwed up…basics that, fifteen years ago, the fans were screaming bloody murder about and now they’re all, “At last! Batman as he was supposed to be!”
PAD
I believe that one reason fans are resistant to change is that they have idealized ideas about their favorite things. Who fans are pretty accepting of the radical change from Troughton to Pertwee, or the complete reimagining of the Time Lords as Gallifreyans, but that is because the fans largely grew up watching later shows and all these changes happened before they were watching them.
Fans criticized the Paul McGann movie, but really its not that radically different than other changes in the show, and in fact many aspects that people hated (the “romance” between the Doctor and Grace) are actually evident in the new series, just done a bit better. I personally loved the new series and can’t wait to see the Christmas episode — and of course get the actually DVDs next month.
Well, I have seen the first season and the Christmas special already courtesy of friends who can download the episode here in the States. I love the series and enjoy both Doctors. While we can harp on the original naysayers, isn’t there something to say about the fact that the people who are creating the series are fanboys who got in the TV business. Russell Davies, the producer and main writer of the show is a long time Doctor Who fan who even wrote a novel featuring the Eighth Doctor, DAMAGED GOODS.
Sigh. I wish that Paramount was paying attention to the success of DOCTOR WHO and hired Peter to bring back STAR TREK.
It’s my opinion that Fandom is fundamentally arch-conservative in its philosophy. It always seems to rigidly embrace the status-quo of tried and true models and seems to view any and all change (or acknowledgement that it may occur) as being bad with a capital B-A-D.
I haven’t seen the new DOCTOR WHO, but I’ll pick it up when it’s formally released. I have no problem with buying off eBay; I *do* have a problem with paying $90 or $100 for something that’ll be $30 or $40 when it’s formally released.
The funny thing about people complaining how different the new DOCTOR WHO is from the original series, is that DOCTOR WHO originally began as a children’s series. The early black & white episodes were quite different from the Tom Baker/Peter Davidson/Sylvester McCoy era.
(Of course, fans may have been scared remembering the disastrous DOCTOR WHO movie shown by Fox. Oy…)
i watched the series a few months ago, a british friend sent it to me and we both LOVED it.
there was naysaying before it came out, but once it did, it did smashingly. enough so for there to be a second series and a VERY successful christmas special.
so i think the nay sayers lost 🙂
Regarding the changes to Spider-Man…
I’ve read the first 9 issues of The Other and we still haven’t seen the changes. So I have no idea how anyone can declare they don’t like their first taste of the New Spider-Man, when we really have had very little taste at all of the character. A couple pages in issue #9, but it’s really hard to judge.
The last three issues (starting with PAD’s Friendly Neighborhood #4) should reveal what has been created, and then I will be able to judge.
(I do feel that the strategy of 4 issues for 3 authors has drawn this origin story out much further than necessary, and has weakened the result.)
One of the main reasons we get jittery when someone does a new version of a loved classic is that, more times than not, they do it horrifically badly. Like “Dear God, gouge out my eyeballs with a spoon!” bad.
Plus, in particular, Doctor Who had a history of being re-invented gouge-inducingly badly – to the extent that at least one bit of companion casting (Bonnie Langford) looked like a deliberate attempt to kill the series.
And then there was the movie…
However, when I heard the new series was being writer-driven, I was confident it would be good. All involved seemed to be fans, which was cool.
Even the Billy Piper casting wasn’t a worry, as she had actually appeared in the Canterbury Tales, done by the BBC’s Snooty High-Class Drama Department – and you don’t get in those them there things without you can actually act some.
The new series has a tendency to be sillier than it needs to be, sacrificing plot and character consistency for the laugh from time to time. And the done-in-one episodes almost all seem too rushed – the natural length of a Doctor Who story is 4x 23 minutes or 2x 45 minutes. With cliffhangers, dammit.
But other than that, I think the series is utterly fantastic, with all concerned kicking serious SF booty all over the shop. And it’s been a roaring success in the UK – even Michael Grade, unofficial head of the Doctor Who Hatred Club, liked it.
And anyone who can make Daleks badass again gets my vote.
And next series! Sarah Jane! K9! Cybermen!
Life is good.
PAD,
I hope the very vocal minority of whiners on internet messageboards aren’t souring your concept of “fans”.
I imagine that, in reality, most “fans” are interested in new ideas and willing to give them a chance. I know I am.
“What is it about fans, anyway, that there’s always so much nay-saying and prejudging?” I think it’s part and parcel of the false sense of entitlement many of these fans have, they feel like they own something because they enjoy it. This expresses itself in everything from grumbling about the assumed awfulness of something they’ve never seen or read to assuring themselves they know what they want (which is disproven over and over by companies who create their tastes) to demanding the right to disseminate fanfic based on someone else’s creative work, copyrights and trademarks be dámņëd. Their hearts are probably in the right place, but just about anything that comes out of a false sense of entitlement is, in the end, not a good thing.
“BSG has become my favorite show currently on television. Absolutely phenomenal and engrossing show, delving into themes of sex, religion, faith, loyalty, family, politics, and more, longtime fans be dámņëd. :)”
So why not create a new universe with different characters, also examining those themes in a similar manner, rather than screwing around with established characters? THAT’S what bothers me. It appears to me the ONLY reason it is called BATTLESTAR is to try to capitalize on the old series, rather than have a completely different series where no one will whine about the changes because, well, it is all new, not something old reworked.
I didn’t cringe when they announce the new Doctor. I have been through enough of them to know there will be some I like, some I don’t, and “this, too, shall pass” as it were.
But, overall, though I didn’t mind him at all, I do have problems with this latest series. Don’t much care for his sidekick this time around (personal taste is all) and, though the visuals are vastly improved, the editing needs work in places, not as tight as it could be, and the writing definitely could stand reworking.
OK, I have not seen anywhere near all the previous series, so maybe I missed something, but …
SPOILERS:
Having that forcefield demonstrated as being so effective in the latest in the ‘final’ battles against the Daleks was a good thing. But … who would design an nearly impregnable pill-box and forget to mount OFFENSIVE weapons? OK, they were safe, but just hunkering down in a bunker isn’t much use if you can’t strike back.
Too, the eventual resolution of the situation pretty much takes the tension out of future stories where we know unbeatable opponents can be similarly taken out by this new deus ex machina. So the Doctor dies as a result. Big deal. He regenerates. He has a limited number of regenerations? He’s been exposed to so many mutagens over the centuries, they can have him discover he has more than the usual Gallifrean regen limit. As with the time travel ending to the first SUPERMAN movie, this waters down enormously the potential future threats he’ll face.
PAD,
I guess I was one of those naysayings on the Burton Batman costume, not because of the pattern or the color, but because it was so freaking overly padded that Keaton couldn’t even turn his neck. One of the primary differences between Batman and Batman Begins is that they actually cast an actor who looked like he could fill out the costume instead of one of the director’s personal friends.
As for Doctor Who: Haven’t seen it yet, so I won’t be judging it one way or another.
hi.
happy new year everyone. this is offf topic but i simply must know.
what is the difference between a producer, an associate producer & an executive producer? I tried wikepedia but it really didn’t help.
thanks
joe v
To PAD or anyone else who might can answer…..
I am a huge Doctor Who fan and plan on getting the series when it comes out in February…..but I have one question….
Why isn’t this show being broadcast on BBC America? If it is the outlet for British programs in the United States then a person would think it would be the ONLY place it would even be considered being televised on.
Maybe I simply do not know the behind the scenes business aspect of it.
This is my first post PAD, I have been a lurker for some time and a fan for years. I remember seeing you at a Friendly’s diner in Maryland in 2000 while dining there with my wife….I assumed it was you however because its not every Friendly’s that serves fully armored Klingons in the next booth over!! LOL
Keep up the great work!
Thank you Starwolf! Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I like to think that I am a rational fan (almost oxymoronic, isn’t it?) but there are some things that really set me off. C’mon! I stopped watching BSG because I couldn’t reconcile the greatly loved (if poorly written) series of my childhood with the semi-pørņ it has become. If it wasn’t calling itself BSG, I would probably be watching it regularly, instead of only tuning in to see the Pegasus episodes. In other formats-Nick Cage as Superman, anyone? Who here sees that as a good idea? Too often, a “re-imagining” is simply a way to try to cash in on the name of the show, movie, book, or comic without really holding true to the central themes and premises. Other’s haven’t been so bad-one of my favorite lines from X-men is still “what did you expect? Yellow spandex?” But the vast majority of the “re-imagining” I have seen strikes me as nothing but crap.
I loved Doctor Who when I was a kid. Oh, the memories of Tom Baker battling Daleks with a craggly smile and an impossible scarf. The new Who lives up to this childhood legend. Cool ideas, fantastic storylines that expertly mix drama and humor, and a great sense of fun really breathe new life into a timeless character. I do wish Christopher Eccleston was coming back for season 2. But the new guy performed well in the Xmas special. I’m sure the show will still be top notch.
But let’s also scold those creators and publishers who denigrate and dismiss negative reactions from longstanding fans instead of stopping to consider that instead of Radically Re-Conceiving the Character, maybe they’re just turning Coke into New Coke. New Coke wasn’t Coke; it was a super-sweet cola. If Coke drinkers liked that sort of thing then they would have been drinking Pepsi to begin with.
Funny you should bring that up. The reason that Coke changed your formula is that Pepsi tested better than Coke in blind taste tests. The new formula tested better than both Coke and Pepsi in blind taste tests. The founder of the Old Cola Drinkers of America, who filed a class action lawsuit against Coke over the change, chose the new formula twice in blind taste tests.
By bringing up New Coke, you’ve only proven Peter’s point – people fear change so much that they’d rather have something inferior than something different.
Regarding fandom in general, I think there are two main problems:
a) People who continue to watch a series out of “loyalty”/force of habit, even though they no longer actually like it. (This is basically why I continue reading Garfield strips, since they rarely make me laugh nowadays.) So, whether they count as “fans” is somewhat debatable at that point.
b) The “wine connoisseur” syndrome, where you need to demonstrate your tastes by being selective. If you say “Hey, I’ll drink anything as long as it’s got alcohol”, that makes you seem uncultured compared to people who say “Hmm, a pleasant enough Bordeaux, but the grapes were clearly picked a day late”. I’ve certainly seen this in general terms, e.g. book SF fans who look down on media SF fans, or media SF fans who look down on Star Trek fans.
Regarding Dr Who in particular, I had some concerns about the new series, but they were mainly based on early rumours/reporting. “It’s written by the guy who did ‘Queer as Folk’! Julian Clary will be the new Doctor!” I haven’t seen ‘Queer as Folk’, but this all made me a bit nervous. I’m British, and I wasn’t bothered by Billie Piper being cast, but I have to admit that I own one of her albums… I actually liked the Paul McGann film, but I also think that Timothy Dalton was the best Bond actor, so I think my tastes diverge from the mainstream quite a bit.
Anyway, I’ve been very impressed by the relaunch, and I think that Captain Jack is a fun character. I particularly liked the way that they handled the Dalek episode, since the addressed the “Daleks can’t go upstairs” myth in a way that didn’t require new viewers to know any history but also didn’t contradict anything that had been shown before.
Speaking of contradictions, I wonder how much of the “fear of change” is due to people being burned with poor continuity? E.g. if you’ve read lots of comics where issues blatantly contradict what came before, that could lead to a situation where you feel like a “guardian” of the series, and certainly a feeling that you know more than the people who are ostensibly in charge. I sometimes find that I watch an adaptation (e.g. book->film), and my initial reaction to a change is to say “No, they’ve got that wrong!” However, I do my best to squelch it, on the basis that it’s normally a deliberate choice, rather than the producers being unaware of the source material.
Anyway, ending on a positive note, I have seen people say “Ok, this sounds terrible, but I was completely wrong about the Galactica relaunch so I’ll give this a shot”, so this situation will hopefully improve.
Honest question here, as I don’t have Sci-Fi Channel.
Why do people keep writing ‘BSG’ when refering to Battlestar Galactica, which is 2 words?
Are they subconsciously thinking BFD?
Or are they comparing the headache they get from watching it to MSG?
(Okay, so that last bit wasn’t serious, but I do want to know about ‘BSG’.)
Well, as one of the few french fans of the Doctor, I really loved the new version. Yes, we managed to see it in France, thanks to cable and satellite channel France 4 (although, in spite of the fact that each episode aired four times in a week, none of the airing were in the original english, despite the fact that Jonathan Creek -recommanded, BTW, if you like “impossible crimes” stories- was not even dubbed). There were so many great things that reminded me of the old show (I managed to catch the Pertwee era and the beginning of the Tom Baker era thanks to BBC Prime), and so many good things that were different (Dalek managed to make me feel sad about one of the most terrifying enemy of the Doctor). I hope we’ll get The Christmas Invasion soon here.
And about your question about fans? Peter, we’ve been burned so many times before that we tend to err on the cautious side. But I’m glad to say that this fan has never been burned by you.
Honest question here, as I don’t have Sci-Fi Channel.
Why do people keep writing ‘BSG’ when refering to Battlestar Galactica, which is 2 words?
Are they subconsciously thinking BFD?
Or are they comparing the headache they get from watching it to MSG?
(Okay, so that last bit wasn’t serious, but I do want to know about ‘BSG’.
Well, if you don’t watch the show, and you can’t even phrase your question without being insulting (presumably because of your deep hatred of a TV show… *sigh*), then why do you care?
Honest question…
“So why not create a new universe with different characters, also examining those themes in a similar manner, rather than screwing around with established characters? THAT’S what bothers me. It appears to me the ONLY reason it is called BATTLESTAR is to try to capitalize on the old series, rather than have a completely different series where no one will whine about the changes because, well, it is all new, not something old reworked.”
It uses the same concept as the old show. If it had been called something else it would simply be called a rip-off.
“So why not create a new universe with different characters, also examining those themes in a similar manner, rather than screwing around with established characters? THAT’S what bothers me. It appears to me the ONLY reason it is called BATTLESTAR is to try to capitalize on the old series, rather than have a completely different series where no one will whine about the changes because, well, it is all new, not something old reworked.”
It uses the same concept as the old show. If it had been called something else it would simply be called a rip-off.
As a life-long Doctor Who nut, I was excited about the new series from the beginning. The producers really love the series and have done their utmost to bring us an incredible, fun, exciting show. They did a great job keeping the elements that make it Doctor Who, while giving the show a topnotch modern production and the best writing the series has ever had.
My wife, who was long ago indoctrinated into Who fandom, loved the show and we hooked her whole family on it! Even people who don’t normally like genre stuff have been won over by the sheer quality of the new show.
It is a great time to be a Doctor Who fan! Now we have two seasons (at least) of the 10th Doctor AND a season on the Captain Jack spinoff, Torchwood, to look forward to. Yay!
“Batman Begins” isn’t back to the basics of Batman. It’s back to the basics of the Batman feature film franchise before it got screwed up…basics that, fifteen years ago, the fans were screaming bloody murder about and now they’re all, “At last! Batman as he was supposed to be!”
PAD
I don’t know, man. Because, you see, I like Batman Begins about a million times more than the Tim Burton films. I bought Batman Begins on DVD, yet own none of the previous Batman movies on DVD. That’s how much more I like it. Of course, to me, it has a lot more to do with Batman’s personality and morality than anything. The Batman in Batman Begins actually seems somewhat likable and has some sense of superhero morality (his “I won’t be an executioner” bit). The one in the first couple Batman movies under Burton didn’t have that. He just seemed crazy, rather than heroic to me. Of course, I just don’t care for Burton films in general.
PAD Said:
That’s what they were saying back then. And that was essentially the costume worn in “Batman Begins.” And if the preceding Batman films had never happened–if this was the very first full length Batman feature film in the last forty years–that is EXACTLY what they would have been saying now. You know it and I know it. Would they have changed their minds once seeing the film? Probably. But that’s not the point. The point remains exactly what I said in the first place: Fans are quick to prejudge and to condemn that which represents change.
“Batman Begins” isn’t back to the basics of Batman. It’s back to the basics of the Batman feature film franchise before it got screwed up…basics that, fifteen years ago, the fans were screaming bloody murder about and now they’re all, “At last! Batman as he was supposed to be!”
That, and the even nastier backlash against the casting of Michael Keaton, are good examples of dumb, nonsensical, knee-jerk negativity against the basic concept of change.
(As an aside, though…the changes you cite have been the status quo for close to twenty years, now. Sure, the rubberized costume was a big deal in 1988, but today? Naw.)
For all of the surface changes of “Batman” and “Batman Begins,” they didn’t attempt to turn Batman into something he fundamentally isn’t, like a happy-go-lucky playboy or an international superspy. Folks got over Michael Keaton and the rubber suit because the film stuck to what has made Batman a unique and important character for most of its 60-year history. Batman didn’t wear armor in Detective Comics #27 and he didn’t have the cool car…but you could plug that guy into the 2005 movie and he’d fit right in.
Just imagine if the trailer had depicted Bruce Wayne as, say, a sort of lighthearted, crimefighting Willy Wonka. In that case, some Batman fans would have had a very sensible reason to conclude “This movie isn’t for me.”
That reaction isn’t an example of dumb, knee-jerk resistance to change, and I don’t think those fans should be dismissed for looking at the situation and then making a choice. Otherwise, how many issues of a $3 comic should they be forced to buy before they’re finally allowed to say “I’m just not interested in this concept of the character?” They’re not organizing a boycott and they’re not publishing long, angry screeds against a comic or a movie that they’ve never seen. They’re simply choosing to spend their cash on things that they think they’re going to enjoy.
I’ve read the first 9 issues of The Other and we still haven’t seen the changes. So I have no idea how anyone can declare they don’t like their first taste of the New Spider-Man, when we really have had very little taste at all of the character. A couple pages in issue #9, but it’s really hard to judge.
I would never make any sort of blanket statement against the New Spidey. But…
(SPOILERS)
…
Personally, I truly disliked the Big Reveal. The idea that Peter Parker has always been part-spider, and that he’s never addressed or acknowledged it, instantly made the character 50% less interesting to me. Then in the final couple of pages it became half as interesting yet again; the ongoing mystery about whether the “new” Peter Parker represents the human-who-became-spider or the spider-who-was-repressed comes across to me as utter mumbo-jumbo and nothing more than a cheap, overly-theatrical distraction from everything that made Peter Parker a terrific character.
This is the Internet, so it’s probably important to stress that I didn’t burn the comic in disgust, I didn’t write my Congressman urging him to take action, and I wouldn’t even be posting about it here if it weren’t a good example in service of a larger point. I simply shrugged and removed the book from my pull list.
To be honest, I’ve been gradually enjoying the book less and less over the past year, so unless “The Other” had proved to be hugely engaging and invigorating, I probably would have dropped the book in the next few months anyway.
I’m sure that the same storyline that got me to drop the book will lead others to pick it up for the first time. Good for them, seriously.
So why not create a new universe with different characters, also examining those themes in a similar manner, rather than screwing around with established characters?
Why should they?
THe whole point of art is to interpret a theme from an individual artists’ viewpoint. We don’t chain an actor to a specific portryal done by a previous actor (what? You think Olivier did the definitive version?); various writers had reinterpreted and done different versions of the same stories (um, Shakespeare?); various films have been done as variations and reinterpretations of previous material (Kurosawa and Ran).
If Shakespeare can be reinterpreted and redone, why should we embalm genre works like GALACTICA as the sole and only way? If we can redo the theme BETTER, why shouldn’t it be done?
RE: The Batman Franchise…
The first movie featuring Batman as something other than ‘camp’ was a good idea. I recall in 1988 that there was some ‘fan’ outcry about things not being what they were “supposed to be.” After seeing a preview, someone called into a radio show on the subject griping about how it wasn’t silly and there was no Robin. Comments that anyone familiar with the original Batman would find strange and consistant with someone who was only familiar with the craptacular TV show from the sisties. Then there are those like me who saw the movie and said, “Cool. They should have called it “The Joker.”
Number 2, Batman returns.
All I’ll say is that The Penguin always struck me as something more than a sewer urchin but, hey, that’s just me. The movie was still enjoyable, if something of a joke. This movie also marked the beginning of the re-injection of the silliness. I’ll still watch it to this day. Not because it’s great, but rather because I was satisfied with Michael Keaton’s performance.
Number 3, Batman Forever.
Just my opinion, but this film had no class at all. Visually it was OK if your lifelong dream is to live in a circus. Overall it seemed that someone must have said, “Pass the cheese,” and then said dairy product made it’s way into the script and the visual design. I also got the impression that this film was an experiment in cast recognition. Val Kilmer, Tommy Lee Jones, Jim Carrey, Nichole Kidman, they’re all good actors. This move is not a good vehicle for any of them.
Ah, Batman and Robin.
Grumble, sigh and argh.
Again, we get a solid cast that is inundated with cheese.
Batman Begins.
Ok, PAD, I’m in that camp you described above. The camp that uses the word “Finally” when discussing this film.
Up to this film no one was able to play Bruce Wayne/Batman with the same dichotomy that Michael Keaton did. In fact I feel that Christain Bale is the best thus far. This film was long on story and short on ridiculous eye candy. For me that’s a huge plus. This script was well written. I find that it captured the darkness of Batman better than any of the prior films.
But make no mistake. I’m not engaging in boycott’s, hate mail campaign’s or the like. Even though I had presuppositions going into these films I still went to these films and tried to keep an open mind. Even though the Governator was cast as Mr. Freeze.
In addition, PAD, I must say that your works have yet to disappoint me. Sure I was a little bent when you did away with Ensign Janos and Mark McHenry, but that’s more because those two provided a helluva lot of laughs. As someone who really digs a good story, though, I recognize the value of them being written out (for a while, because anything can happen in print).
I’m also a Star Trek fan and some of the recent decisions made in that franchise were fantastic. Star Trek: Enterprise and the three part story arc could have saved the show were the damage not already done.
Not being a Doctor Who fan myself, I won’t comment on that part of the discussion.
I think the fans of any franchise are more than financial base. Certainly they shouldn’t have creative powers but I often think that the brains behind some of these franchises would be well served by using a few fans as consultants on continuing projects. Just a few. Particularly when it comes to continuity. But still just a few. Let’s face it fans can be pretty well ‘out there’ at times. Bìŧçhìņg before they’ve viewed the product is just prejudicial and tells me more about them than they tell me about the product.
On the brightside, I’m done commenting for the moment.
Many Regards,
Mitch
… And, dammit, I liked the body armor Batman costume from the git go!
There, now I’m done.
Mitch
PAD, about the Batman Begins costume. Alot of Batman fan’s (myself included) were dissapointed they went with Semi-Rigid Armor again, but the vocal monority (again) didn’t think Batman should wear “Pajamas” as they call the traditional costume. They think Batman should be Iron Man pretty much. Alot of that can be placed on the heads of ambitious anime-raised non comic reading but “fan’s of the character” type people who cant just buy Batman/Bruce Wayne getting by on his own skill in a fight, he has to be bulletproof. I honestly think them retaining the Rubber costume had more to do with studio mandate for merchandising than anything Nolan brought to the project.
The one thing scratching my head is “Fans” complaining about the new Superman costume. Appartently, even though it looks like a traditional costume to me, the color and tailoring change the whole thing and make it an abomination.
The stronger and more established the fanbase is, the more likely it is that especially hardcore fans have trouble to open their minds and hearts to a new version of the program they love.
I remember the outcries when TNG first appeared. Star Trek without Spock and Kirk? To some fans, it sounded absurd, nearly like betrayal. Star Trek on a space station? I remember a lot of fans were extremely skeptical. And, yes, the new Battlestar Galactica is another good example.
I sometimes read comments that in essence point out that the new version is “ruining” the old, making it “obsolete”. I think that is a very narrow minded attitude. Each series exists in its own right and can be enjoyed for what it is. For example, it is perfectly ok to love TOS and also what came afterwards. Maybe not all of it but some.
But I also think, such reports shouldn`t be taken too seriously. Whenever there are reports of fans on TV, you can bet that the reporters are first of all looking for the ones in costume, trying to find the ones who seem a bit crazy and, well…, fanatic. The normal, average fan is simply much less interesting.
SFX magazine is the only British SF magazine I am not subscribing and I wouldn`t put too much weight on what they are saying about fans and gossip. The other ones were much more positive about the new Doctor Who, the new assistant and the stories.
Doctor Who has never been shown in Germany where I grew up. My British husband introduced me to it when I moved over. I liked some of it but definitely not all. Doctor Who often reminded me of TOS: I liked the idea behind the series but a lot of it seemed dated, some of it in a bad way – like the treatment of women. I wasn`t so much worried about the new doctor, I was hoping that the modern, new Doctor Who would break the tradition of the screaming, helpless assistant who is in my opinion not very assisting at all. (I wished Leela (have I spelled that right? On the other hand, the female one-eyed, purple haired lady in Futurama would be a good choice :))wouldn`t have been the exception of the rule but the norm).
People are emotionally attached to series they love and I think a certain amount of wondering and worrying if changes are really for the better is normal. There will always be fans who you can`t satisfy but I think quality speaks for itself. It also convinces most of the “It`s gonna suck” viewers after they have watched a few episodes if the quality is indeed there.
Nowadays, I read very little criticism about the new Doctor Who. My husband, me and our daughter love the show and “The Christmas Invasion” was a highlight of the holidays for us.
We will buy the box very soon. We only have to wait because we spent too much money recently. And we can`t wait until the new season starts later in spring!
By bringing up New Coke, you’ve only proven Peter’s point – people fear change so much that they’d rather have something inferior than something different.
Who says that Classic Coke was inferior to New Coke? I tried them both, found the new stuff to be sickeningly sweet, and then I stopped buying the brand because the product I liked was no longer available.
And here you see the reason why New Coke failed so miserably: company executives kept stressing over and over and over again to each other that this new product couldn’t fail…look! Mathematical proof that people prefer New Coke to the old stuff! Numbers, and everything!
The numbers only said that if you can get 1000 people to drink two glasses of cola without knowing which was which, more than half will prefer the New Coke glass to the Classic one. But that’s almost meaningless when you’re talking about subjective opinions. Maybe Joe Random would prefer the taste of the new stuff…but he’s not legally obligated to do a side-by-side taste test on his own, and if you insist that he switch from the brand that he already buys, there’s absolutely no assurance that he’s going to switch to your new brand. And New Coke was a brand-new product.
Most of the analyses I’ve read of the New Coke debacle conclude that the problem wasn’t that of open revolt from Coke drinkers, but the fact that people failed to be excited by Coke’s dazzling “Statistically, more people prefer this formula” slogan. Essentially, the company succeeded in turning millions of 100% loyal customers into free agents. Instead of automatically buying Coke as usual, they bought whatever was cheapest. Meanwhile, they weren’t giving Pepsi drinkers any reasons to sample New Coke.
Armchair quarterbacks claim that the company would have had far greater success if they’d made the change without telling anybody, and just tried extra-hard to get loyal Pepsi drinkers to give Coke a try…like, by putting more ad and promotion money into traditional Pepsi markets.
It gets back to the main point, here: you can’t simply trust a consumer to keep buying a product just because the same logo is there on the package. At some point, a customer became loyal to this product. There was a certain quality, real or imaginary, that they perceived in the thing.
I like Coke because it’s not as sweet as Pepsi. When Coke says “We’re reformulating our cola to make it sweeter” they’ve removed my reason for buying it. Similarly, there are reasons why I like “Amazing Spider-Man” or “Fantastic Four” or “The Avengers.” If Marvel announces huge changes that cause those reasons to become inoperative — or worse, if they announce that they’re making the book more like books that I know and don’t like — they’re removing reasons for me to continue to buy.
It’s not a Fear of Change; it’s a legitimate choice.
“The first movie featuring Batman as something other than ‘camp’ was a good idea. I recall in 1988 that there was some ‘fan’ outcry about things not being what they were “supposed to be.”
Oh, man, is that an understatement.
I was on a panel at a convention back then, and we were asked what we thought of the prospect of Tim Burton directing and Michael Keaton starring. And every other person on the panel excoriated the notion. And I said, “Y’know, Burton is a director, and Keaton is an actor. And just because they’re mostly known for comedy doesn’t mean they can’t do a more serious interpretation. So I have no intrinsic problem and am willing to wait and see the film before deciding.”
And I nearly got booed off the stage. Only time in my life. Even the other guys on the stage looked at me as if I’d just admitted to raping a nun. I mean, it was venomous.
The reaction from fandom was so furious in general that, in a ten minute promo reel for the film, they even addressed it as a “controversial choice that had many fans openly questioning whether Michael Keaton was up for the role.” They then cut to the clip from “Beetlejuice” in which Alec Baldwin and Geena Davis ask him his qualifications and he starts off in a normal voice talking about everything he’s done and slowly descends into his growling Beetlejuice voice and ends with, “And I’ve seen the Exorcist 57 times and it keeps getting funnier EVERY TIME I SEE IT! Now whattaYOU think? Think I’m qualified?!”
Believe me, it was more than “some fan outcry.”
PAD
Wahoo!! Finally, the UK gets something before anyone else does, and not just before, but WELL before 😀
Sorry, it’s just such a rare occasion for us 🙂
Anyway, I watched the new series of Dr Who when it was shown ovwer here (I’m in the UK, if you didn’t guess) and I loved it, as did all my kids. My 9 yr old daughter was thrilled to bits this Xmas when Santa brought here a toy SOnic Screwdriver, not to mention several books about Dr Who as well.
I was also lucky enough to get the full series boxset for Xmas off my kids and it’s lovely, some great extras, if somewhat dogy packaging, dunno what you guys and galsd across the pond are gettin yours in.
Best of all, the Xmas special was great, Tennant looks like he’s gonna fit right in and the new series starts soon as well, apparently, so there’s a whole lot more to look forward to as well 😀
ANd I just spotted this is getting released soon over here as well, to start the whole shebang off, so to speak…
http://www.r2-dvd.org/article.jsp?sectionId=2&articleId=7201
Obvioulsy being done to cash in on the new popularity of it all, but dámņ, look at those extra features!! Can’t wait to pick this one up!
Who is the new darling of British Sci Fi? Yes, he is 🙂
Illicit DVDs?? Say it ain’t so…
(Where do I get ’em?)
Coming in a little bit late … but hey, I was back teaching today while most of you slugs got a federal holiday. So there. 🙂
While I think Peter’s overstating the case a bit here and there (no doubt because of personal experience, from things like the Batman panel he mentioned and especially things like the changes he introduced to the Hulk), I also think that by and large he’s got a point. I’m not sure I’d limit it to fandom, though — I think most PEOPLE are basically conservative (in the non-political sense) and somewhat … well, not resistant to change, but at least a little wary in the face of it.
As far as specific cases go, let’s see —
Spider-Man/The Other: Reading it faithfully, but I’ll admit it’s not gigantically grabbing me. Peter’s bits were mostly laying groundwork while doing other things, pretty much all of which were more fun than the main storyline. (Aspects of the main storyline strike me as similar to “Kraven’s Last Hunt”, only a LOT more ponderous… and I say this as someone who’s liked most of JMS’s run.)
The original “backlash” against TNG: boy, do I remember this. I grew up watching TOS in reruns, but was a sophomore in college when TNG started up. I knew some folks who pretty much refused to watch it, or at least refused to be anything but contemptuous while doing so (though “Encounter at Farpoint” didn’t make that difficult for them 🙂 ). I also remember some similar backlashes that struck me as just seriously weird: I recall some folks on Usenet to refused to give Voyager a chance because they had a black Vulcan, for instance.
Keaton as Batman: wasn’t sure it was a terrific idea based on things I’d seen previously, but thought it was worth a shot on the strength of Burton’s visual style and Nicholson. Frankly, I’m still not sure Keaton was a fantastic choice, but he was perfectly decent in the role (and a dámņëd sight better than Val Kilmer was later, though I’d chalk some of that up to the dialogue Kilmer had to sell).
The new Galactica: haven’t had a chance to see it yet (sigh). I’ll admit that I was extremely skeptical about it, not so much for the changes as for the “we’re going to do this again, but SEXILY this time” sort of marketing campaign that was going on. I’ve had approximately eight zillion friends since say it’s worth seeing, though, so I’m hoping to do so soon.
The new Who: really, really, really looking forward to it based on word of mouth. I came into Whoviana very late in the game — during the Colin Baker to Sylvester McCoy transition, I think — so I saw enough wholesale changes in a short period of time to keep me from being too committed to one particular approach. (I wasn’t thrilled with the McGann film, though, even if McGann himself was good.)
Anyway, that’s my too-many cents.
TWL
I’ll admit it, when I saw Michael Keaton and Tim Burton attached to the film, I was skeptical, but I did go see the movie with an open mind.
And I still think the result was horrible. Keaton’s portrayal of Bruce Wayne as the wishy-washy social misfit who is looking for someone to give him a hug just grated on my nerves, so yes, I will add my voice to chorus of people crying “finally” after watching Batman Begins.
Of course, after seeing several of Burton’s films over the past 20 years, I’m now convinced that the wishy-washy social misfit who can’t stop crying about not getting enough hugs as a child is the only character motivation that Burton knows how to direct.
As for Battlestar Galactica, I had the chance to watch a few episodes of the original series on the Sci-Fi channel last year for the first time since I was a kid and realized something that escaped the nine-year old who first viewed them:
They’re not very good.
Seriously, maybe four or five episodes of that series was worthwhile, but on the whole, it’s a Cylon Basestar full of cheese.
As the new series stands, then, I can’t view it as blasphemy or some kind of betrayal because they did some gender switching or brought in some moral ambiguity. It’s just a better product with richer characterization and less camp.