Because you demanded it…

123 comments on “Because you demanded it…”

1. My wife and I both thought that Dumbledore and Snape had agreed to the plan to kill Dumbledore. First, Snape was under the “unbreakable vow” meaning that he had to do everything he could to help Draco, or die as a result. Second, there is a point in the book when Snape and Dumbledore are overheard arguing; it is not beyond the realm of reason to think that this is because Dumbledore had ordered an unwilling Snape to kill him. It’s easy to believe that the reason is to cement Snape’s position within the Death Eaters and give him a chance to help Harry when least expected in the final battle.

   I’m not sure whether Dumbledore is dead or not, but I’m almost positive that Snape isn’t a bad guy; I think it’s all part of the plan.

2. When Snape’s looking down at Dumbledore, Dumbledore’s voice holds something Harry had never heard before: desperation. And Dumbledore’s saying “Please, Severus, please.”

   Dumbledore had never been worried about his own death; his only apparent concern was the defeat of Voldemort. Snape is an accomplished Occulens — Occumentor — mind-reader. Seems to me that Dumbledore was projecting to Snape “Please don’t blow your cover; if you do, the battle against Voldemort is lost. You must kill me, you must, so that we can win.”

3. I have adored the Snape character as the most interesting character in the Potter mythos. Obviously having more layers to him than any other. The whole scene with him and Dumbledore on the roof, including Snape’s reactions before and after the “murder” as well as Dumbledore’s final words to a seemingly tortured Snape leads me to believe that this was planned, possibly as a contingancy plan should other steps fail. It seemed very possible to me that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to follow through with it. While Dumbledore may or may not be dead, I have little doubtthat Rowlings is more clever than to simply throw away the character that has proven repeatedly since Book 1 that one should not make snap judgements about a person. The lesson would be lost if Snape ended up being a murderer.

   I was a bit surprised that the Dumbledore painting did not interact with Harry, keeping the relationship going, dispite his death. It felt like an unexplained cheat for the reader, but it may be another clue that he still lives. *Wasn’t ‘painting Dumbledore’ sleeping the entire time that Harry viewed it?*

   Side note, the surgery on my back was labelled a “success”. Iguess time and healing will tell whether I recover, but I’m hopeful. A very supportive and nurturing significant other, as well as MONK Seasons II and II on DVD, the last Bourne book (written recently by someone with theLudlum estate’s blessing), and some half-way decent narcotics/pain meds have made the process a bit more bearable.

   Fred

4. What?

   Dumbledore killed by Snape?

   How could you tell me this, now you’ve ruined the rest of my book.

   thanks Peter

5. I’m inclined to think that Snape is still a good guy. I don’t believe for a minute that he wanted to keep Harry alive so Voldemort could finish him off. If he were a truly committed Death Eater, I think he would have slain Harry right after Dumbledore, which he could have done very easily.

6. I’m fairly sure there was something going on at the end that was more than what it seemed. I haven’t decided on what though.

   What I can’t get my head around is why Snape took the oath at the beginning of the book. He would have lost nothing by not taking it. No one was expecting him to. He gained very little, a bit more faith from the Death Eaters, but nothing more from Voldemort. Another major theme in the book, after all, was how Tom Riddle had no friends and trusted no one. Snape wasn’t about to gain that trust no matter what he did. The only thing I can think is that he had some sort of affection for Draco’s mother, much like he apparently had some for Lily Potter, because no amount of affection for Draco would have him make so binding an oath.

   And in helping Draco to kill Dumbledore, he almost does the boy more harm than good. All of the other Death Eaters, no matter how fearsome or hateful, had held because because it was supposed to be Draco’s kill. I imagine they were afraid to defy Voldemort for good reason and Snape wasn’t doing Draco any favors by taking his kill. So if we’re dealing with consistant storytelling here, the oath is going to end up doing Draco harm.

7. “Then again, she’s the multimillionaire and I’m just some guy with a quirky blog, so…”

   Hah! That’s funny. Some guy my ášš. I was waiting more eagerly for each new issue of Captain Marvel than any kid ever was for te new Harry Potter book

8. “How could you tell me this, now you’ve ruined the rest of my book.”

   how come you didn’t read the part where it said spoiler filled?

   I too, darted through this book in record time. (four hours.)
   The thing that struck me though, is that if Dumbledore really is dead, then Harry doesn’t have a hope in hëll of destroying the other five horcruxes, let alone taking Voldemort on. I mean, the big D lost a hand to one of the spells on the ring horcrux; and he is the most powerful wizard ever. And even he says that if it wasn’t for Snape he’d be dead.

   So it seems that Harry’s only hope is that Voldemort was so confident in his own powers that he didn’t bother to curse the others, or that he has some realllly powerful helpers.

   “Harry spends the whole book saying that he believes Malfoy is up to something and NO ONE believes him. Haven’t we danced this dance?”

   Well, yes we have, Mr. David. How ’bout all the other books where he ranted that it was Snape, or someone else, only to discover it was Quirrel, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Crouch, and then Kreacher who was the real bad guy/traitor? I mean, if he had listened to all the really smart people around him, he would have been a lot happier. The reason they didn’t believe him this time was that he had a long history of being wrong.

   I think that Dumbledore, being the amazingly powerful wizard, could have faked his own death. He might have been able to fake it so well that he fooled the Unbreakable Vow. I just really find it hard to believe that he didn’t see something coming. He knew Malfoy was trying to kill him, so he should have been prepared to protect himself.

9. “What?

   Dumbledore killed by Snape?

   How could you tell me this, now you’ve ruined the rest of my book.

   thanks Peter”

   You did see the above reference that this was a “spoiler-filled” discussion? Caveat Emptor.

   Or am I missing the internet sarcasm?

   I have not read this series past the first 50 pages of the second book. Just not my cup o epic fantasy tea, although it sounds like it’s developing into something I might enjoy on a larger scale. I’ve seen the first 2 movies, though, and followed enough discussions to follow along.

   From this discussion, and things the author has dropped along the way, I’m wondering what people’s feelings are on how this all is going to resolve? Rowling has me thinking that she might end the tale in a way that makes a lot of those people that have invested in the ride unhappy, and maybe her decision with Dumbledor is an indication of that?

10. Our theory is that Dumbledore and Snape had decided Snape would have to kill him to cement his place among the Death Eaters, and that’s why Snape took the Unbreakable Vow. Notice how Dumbledore kept Malfoy talking, keeping Malfoy from killing him until the other Death Eaters arrived?

    When Dumbledore said, “Please, Severus,” I think he was saying, “Please kill me quickly so Malfoy won’t.” Because the other Death Eaters were egging Malfoy on to kill Dumbledore, and he didn’t want his death on Malfoy’s conscience. Just like a good teacher and the parental figure he always was. Also note that Snape does not try to kill Harry, only deflects Harry’s spells while taunting him.

    I predict that in the final battle, Malfoy and Snape will fight at Harry’s side. Won’t that be a kick?

11. Well, I think Dumbledore is dead, although his painting may end up being a Obi-Wan Kenobi type thing for Harry. But for this to be the Hero’s Journey, Harry has to lose the mentor and forge on alone, one way or the other. C’mon, you’ve all read Joseph Campbell, right? 😉

    I’m warming to the idea that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him for Draco’s sake, and to ensure that in the end he would remain in his place alongside Voldemort as a spy. But I credit Rowling’s improved writing chops that it still could go either way and that she has spurred this much debate between the two sides.

    -Joe

12. Count me out of the “Snape is REALLY good” group. Frankly, I figger that enough people would be amazed if Snape actually IS a villain/ not a super secret triple agent.
    Dumbledore is dead. Philosophically, he’s the opposite of do-anything-to-stay- alive Voldemort. He’s had a full life and he’s willing to accept passage into the next great adventure.
    “Harry spends the whole book saying that he believes Malfoy is up to something and NO ONE believes him. Haven’t we danced this dance?”
    Here’s the thing about Harry. He SUCKS as a character. His behaviour is almost entirely motivated by plot device. He must be trusting to advance the plot? He’s trusting. He’s got to be inordinately secretive so that the plot doesn’t fall apart? He’s secretive. It’s not so bad in the last couple of books, but it’s still there.
    Can’t believe he fell for the “influence by evil book” thing AGAIN….

13. Wonderful book.

    After the monotonous, Reset Button-abusing Order of the Phoenix, Prince brought the series back to the familiar form of the first four novels, with mystery, important new revelations, permanent story developments, and growth. Even though I accidentally found out from a Spoiler Warning-free page on a website the identity of the Prince and what supposedly happens to Dumbeldore (Arrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!), and even though this ruined much of the mystery and suspense, it was still a joy to read that I flew through in what seemed like no time. By the time of Chapter 26, I was surprised to realize that I was down to the last 100 pages, and the last Act. It was definitely worth putting The Da Vinci Code on hold.

    —The developments with Snape, Malfoy and the Prince book were great. Now everyone will be after Snape and Malfoy, and they will no longer be able to torment Harry at Hogwarts (I’m assuming that he will go back for his final year, despite what he says at the end), though I wonder if J.K. intends for us to know that Snape is innocent because of the Unbreakable Vow he performed in the beginning of the book. Then again, should he really have made that vow, knowing that it would eventually mean he’d have to do something like what he ended up doing? Or did Dumbeldore, who often seemed precognitive, foresaw his own death, or the need for it, and wanted Snape to kill him? I figured Snape told Dumbedlore about the Unbreakable Vow, so maybe all this was foreseen. I notice that the content of Dumbeldore and Snape’s argument near the forest, about which Hagrid told Harry, was never revealed. Since J.K. has always answered such questions at the end of the books, this would indicate that something that occurred in the book won’t be explained until the next one, another good argument for Dumbeldore’s death being fake.

    —The revelation of the horcruxes were a nice development, and getting to see various points in Voldemort’s origin was wonderful. What also impresses me is that with just a paragraph or two, J.K. is even able to create another villain, one as terrifying in his own way as Voldemort—Fenrir Greyback. This gal knows how to write, and makes it look easy!

    —What’s great is there was a genuine sense of development and change in the book, from the new Minister of Magic, to the new DADA and Potions teachers, Fred and George’s business, the new Gryffindor Quidditch team, the kids’ romances, the shock ending, etc. Because there was such a sense of moving forward, the end of Harry’s relationship with Ginny, while deeply disappointing, didn’t feel so much like a push of the Reset Button, but rather a logical choice that I previously speculated he’d have had to do with Cho Chang.

    —And of course, the death of Dumbeldore. My initial feeling was that it was shocking when I read the spoiler, and it was heart-breaking when I read the story. And of course, Snape’s taunting of Harry when Harry tried to capture/kill Snape afterwards made me go “Ooh! Ooh! I hate that guy! GET him, Harry!” I hope Harry studies non-verbal spells and Occlumency more so that he can get Snape eventually. While the death itself was shocking to experience, I felt a certain feeling of logic inevitability to it, as Harry will eventually have to face Voldemort alone, which means that no matter what help he has up until then—Ron, Hermione, McGonagall, Dumbeldore, Hagrid, the D.A. club, etc.—he’ll have to be on his own during that final confrontation. J.K. should be commended. Instead of going for a fuzzy, sunshiney Happy Ending, she’s willing to show her young readers that the death of those we love is an evitable and natural part of life, and that we need to acknowledge that and move on, and with this, the most heart-breaking of the deaths we’ve endured in the last three books, J.K. shows her commitment to not glossing over such important lessons in life. Now I wonder if this value will be lost if Dumbeldore shows up alive in the next novel.

    NITS & NOTES:
    When Fudge visits the Prime Minister in the beginning of the book, he informs him that Sirius Black was innocent all along of the crimes he was accused of. But later on page 53, Dumbeldore tells Harry that Buckbeak’s name should be changed to protect him, since he’s been on the run since the end of the third book. Why is this? If Dumbeldore finally convinced Fudge that Voldemort was back, that Sirius was innocent, and since Lucius Malfoy has fallen from grace in being revealed to be a Death Eater, then why didn’t Dumbeldore also add that Buckbeak’s lunge at Draco was not serious, was instigated by the boy, and that the proceedings to execute Buckbeak were engineered by Lucius? Shouldn’t Buckbeak have been cleared just like Sirius?

    When Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix first approach Snape’s home, Narcissa zaps Bella’s hand when Bella grabs her to try and convince her not to go there. Then, when Dumbeldore appears at Privet Drive to take Harry to Slughorn’s place, Harry notices that Dumbeldore’s hand is blackened, as if burned, with the skin ripped off. I figured this was a red herring by Rowling intended to make us suspect that Dumbeldore was Bellatrix in disguise, since I doubt Narcissa would’ve wounded her sister that badly, or that Narcisssa would’ve taken Harry without killing him, or for that matter, Slughorn.

    Why is learning non-verbal spells depicted as such a new and difficult thing for students this year? The slug-vomit one Ron attempted on Draco after he called Hermione a Mudblood in Chamber of Secrets was non-verbal, and it only backfired on Ron because his wand was broken.

    During Quidditch try-outs, Harry’s voice is rendered hoarse from all the yelling he does. Why doesn’t he just use the Sonorus spell?

    At the end of Chapter 18, Harry senses somehow that Ron’s mead is poisoned before Ron even drinks it. How did he know this? The books never makes this clear. Am I missing something here?

    Harry wants to know what the Sectumsempra spell does. Well, why doesn’t he just look up a Latin dictionary in the library? I knew what “sempra” meant (in part because I know Italian, and perhaps because I remembered the use of the rictus sempra spell from Chamber of Secrets), so all I had to do was look up “sectum” on a Latin translation website.

    Dumbeldore: Alive or Dead?
    David Haber makes a fairly good argument for why Dumbeldore is not dead, some of which Peter touched upon, at: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html

14. I’d like to add another piece. As a lifelong superhero comic book reader, I more or less question virtually any death in fiction, particularly any where there are supernatural underpinnings or superpowered people running around. When Sirius died in Book 5, I rolled my eyes and said, “Not dead. No body. Sorry.” (I was recently explaining to a friend of mine that if you have a body, that doesn’t mean that the character has died, it just opens room for speculation on how it is that the character is alive, and when the character is coming back.” Whereas, if there is no body, don’t even bother speculating. The character just isn’t dead. But my tune changed with Book 6. About the time they were going for the Horcrux, I was starting to think, Dumbledore seems to be acting strangely. It could be argued that he’s been acting different because he knows his time is coming, and he’s trying to get Harry prepared, but then Dumbledore said something which made me stop. He said, “Oho.” Very minor, but something that I can’t recall Dumbledore ever saying before, whereas another new character has been repeating it in EVERY single appearance he has had in the book.
    I think that we’ve got a “Death of Professor X” scenario here. I think that Dumbledore and Horace Slughorn switched places. When he took the potion, Dumbledore was more or less stating how it was his fault, etc., etc. And yeah, Dumbledore has guilt, but I don’t thinkk he has THAT much guilt. I think the one who has MAJOR guilt is Slughorn. Enough guilt to fake a memory. Enough guilt to sacrifice himself for the cause? Quite possibly. Slughorn can do illusion magic. We see it at the beginning when he either plays invisible or pretends to be a couch. Slughorn wasn’t anywhere to be seen during the big fight at the end. Now, mind you, he doesn’t APPEAR to be the poster child for courage, but still…

    A few problems with this theory…
    1) Slughorn may have switched places with Dumbledore for the horcrux scenario, but how would they forsee what was going to happen at the castle? (Unless Snape was giving them inside info.) Seems a big stretch.
    2) I have a hard time seeing Dumbledore allowing Slughorn to sacrifice himself, even for the best of causes. Snape might go along, not Dumbledore. Which means that the only way that this could occur is if Slughorn and Snape were able to temporarily put Dumbledore out of action so they could proceed with this plan. Impedimenta, which explains “Slughorn’s” absence from the fight, and after everything is over, he’s able to move again. Even in Dumbledore’s weakened state, it seems unlikely that Snape and Slughorn could get him out of the picture.

    Still, whether the Slughorn theory works or not – I have a hard time believing Dumbldore is dead, because I still believe that Snape is firmly on the side of the good guys (whether they like it or not) and SOMEBODY that Harry trusts has to explain to Harry what Snape was actually doing in the end. Harry is not going to believe anything Snape says, and I think that Dumbledore would be the only one able to convince Harry.

    My wife believes me (which is most important) but nobody else does. Oh well.

    Oh, and because I believe Dumbledore is alive, it has convinced me that Sirius is dead. You can’t have BOTH of them come back.

    I’ve read WAY too many comics.

15. First off, I loved the book. It may be her best yet. It is going to be a hard two years waiting for the next one.

    Count me in the camp that believe that Dumbledore is truly dead, but Snape is not a bad guy. I think that we are going to find out that Dumbledore was dying since the beginning of the book. Look at Dumbledore’s hand. He told Harry that he would explain what happen to his hand and he never did. Dumbledore also was willing to sacrifice himself to drink the potion. My bet is that Dumbledore had a terminal condition and that Snape knew about it.

16. Lorin’s theory and mine are not far apart. I agree completely that the “Dumbledore” who goes off the battlements had switched places with a fellow Hogwarts professor. But I don’t think it was Slughorn; I think it was Snape. (I’ve been spinning this out for awhile in various parts of cyberspace; one of the summations of the logic is here.

    Mind you, the points Lorin cites — particularly the “Oho!” dialogue cue and Slughorn’s skill at illusion magic — are well argued. But I think it makes more thematic sense for the journey to the cavern to involve Harry and Snape than Harry and Slughorn (that it does not involve Dumbledore is pretty much given, I think).

    The argument that Dumbledore has to be dead in order for the “hero’s journey” structure to work strikes me as non-persuasive. Yes, Harry needs to triumph in Book 7 by his own actions, not via his mentor’s influence — but I think a major element of Book 7 will be that Harry has to rescue Dumbledore from Voldemort’s clutches (since, according to both Lorin’s and my suspicions, the “Snape” who goes off with the horde of Death Eaters at the end of this book is actually Dumbledore in disguise).

17. A couple of notes for Luigi-

    The Buckbeak incident seemed out of place to me as well. I think a solution lies in the thought that the wizarding world, much like our own, places seperate premiums on human and animal life. When a dog attacks a human here in Georgia, it’s generally “put down” without hesitation. We certainly allow much more room to maneuver when one human assaults another, whereas a raving pit bull is going to be executed regardless as to whether Bono is called as a character witness.

    As for that non-verbal spell bit, I think focus and intention are key elements. Ron was so furious with Draco, so intent on hurting him in that moment, that the spell probably came out effortlessly. It’s like the kid who apparated out of the vanising cabinet without having learned how to do it…I think he just HAD to get out because he couldn’t tolerate one more second in limbo. The intensity of the desire just led him by the hand.

    Now to test the plausibility of a theory. I was reading a JK interview lately in which she responded to a rumor that Luna Lovegood was Snape’s daughter. Her final statement on the subject was, “Severus Snape does not have a daughter” (I think it’s on her website). I thought this was a strange word choice on her part. Why not just say that he didn’t have any children and be done with it? I’ve been thinking about this, however, and I believe that Severus might be Malfoy’s real father. When I look back over the book, I notice that Snape exhibits a tiny bit of stong emotion every time he runs across the notion of Draco being murdered for failing his mission. This theory might add dimension to the relationships between Snape, Narcissa, and Bellatrix (i.e. Snape and Narcissa fall in love, Bellatrix convinces her to drop him because he’s a half-blood, and the only perosn Snape feels he can confide in is Dumbledore) and adds a whole new layer to the Unbreakable Vow. I know that physically speaking Snape is far short of the aristocratic ideal, but people like Narcissa are attracted to power above all, and Snape has that in heaping buckets. Being rejected on the basis of his birth might also have been a factor in Snape’s turn from the darkside, or Perhaps this theory is full of Skrewt dung. What do y’all think?

18. “Harry has to rescue Dumbledore from Voldemort’s clutches”
    I have serious doubts as td Dumbledore’s needing rescuing. I have a feeling that he may use Snapes body to find out where the other Horcruxes are, but he will probably just walk out and not come back sometime. He can’t kill Voldemort, since Harry has to do that, but he could start wiping out Horcruxes.

    “I’ve been spinning this out for awhile in various parts of cyberspace…”

    I read your theory, and it does work…except for “Snape” using an Unforgivable curse on Harry. Dumbledore wouldn’t do that, but Snape, or Slughorn, might.

    If you are right, though, I also think that Dumbledore might stay hidden as Snape with Voldemort, and then revel himself at the last moment to save the day. (sort of like OOTP)

19. Theory #1: Dumbledore begged Snape to kill him as he was going to die anyway (poison from the hand wound and all)

    Theory #2: Snape’s hand “twitched” when he did the Unbreakable Vow. Can you Occumens (sp?) a spell?

    Theory #3: Harry is the 7th Horcrux. Voldemort placed a part of his soul into Harry when the spell backfired. That’s why Harry can speak Parsletongue and hear Voldemort’s thoughts (like Nagini the snake). Harry will have to die (or the Horcrux somehow removed) before Voldemort can be ABLE to be killed.

    Just my set of theories.

    Trace

20. I want to believe you’re right – but I’ve hated Snape for so long that I have a hard time accepting he is really on the good side. The sheer cruelty he has dished out to the students is unredeemable/unforgivable. So if he turns out to be a triple agent, we still have hanging why he is so dámņ heartless and cruel.

    I am on the side that Dumbledore had to die before the 7th book…but I also believe Harry will need to find some adult he can trust. There is only one likely candidate for that if Dumbledore is dead, and that is Remus.

    However, several of the small things that have been pointed out that I missed in my first speed-through reading (and I’ve lent out my copy before having a chance to do the slow reading) give me hope that Dumbledore might actually be alive. But if he is, I think Snape was Snape, and was fooled.

21. Personally I think Harry’s only got 4 more Horcruxes to destroy. Himself being the 5th, after all. Much more likely to pick up the snake-talk ability when you’re carrying around a bit of Voldy’s soul than from some pseudo-mystical falderall as a result of the spell that failed to kill you.

    The question is, will there be some overwrought confusion in book 7 about whether he has to die before they figure out Voldemort got that bit back during being revived. (Thus the look of triumph when he realizes whose blood was used)

22. Lots of interesting comments…

    There’s a couple of areas that haven’t been discussed yet, though.

    1) Snape overhears the prophecy about the child who will be able to defeat Voldemort. This prophecy is made before Harry is born. But Voldemort doesn’t go after him for over a year. So are we to believe that both the Potters and the Longbottoms were in hiding all that time?

    2) Snape reports the prophecy to Voldemort, presumably right away, and then a year later, is upset by what happened? This is why Dumbledore trusts Snape? I don’t think so. There’s either more to this than we know, or there’s some other reason for Dumbledore trusting Snape. My favorite theory, which I read elsewhere on-line, is that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect the child. Why? Because he was in love with Harry’s mom. How many times has Harry been described as looking “exactly like his father, but with his mother’s eyes”? Wouldn’t that just royally tick off Snape, to have those eyes looking at him from that face?

    3) If Snape is really truly all-the-way evil, why did he not harm anyone else during that last battle? He stunned Flitwick (he’s the one who went to get him, right?) and then used that to distract Hermione and…the other student with her (…lousy memory). Snape didn’t attack anyone but Dumbledore, and didn’t use any hard-core spells on Harry, pretty much just deflecting what was thrown at him, IIRC.

    4) Dumbledore’s dead. Accept it. I find it interesting that he may have somehow switched places with Slughorn or Snape, but this would really be coming out of left field. The only way we know something like this could happen would be Polyjuice Potion…which would be impossible to maintain without having the other person around. Remember, you need to drink it every hour. Maybe there’s something to the Killing Curse blowing him off the tower, or the phoenix motif, but I think it would be too big a cheat to bring Dumbledore back.

    5) About the Horcruxes…are we all in agreement that RAB is Regulus Black? Voldemort had 7 of them, and 2 are definitely destroyed (the ring and the diary). What happens when Voldemort uses one, does that drain it, or can it be used again? Is a horcrux what he used to survive when his attempt to kill baby Harry backfired? And if Harry is a horcrux, he’s not a very good one–Harry fought off Voldemort’s possession in the previous book. Personally, I don’t think a living person could be a horcrux. Also, if Voldemort knew the diary had been destroyed, wouldn’t he have had a new horcrux made to replace it? He’s had two years since his rebirth to do it.

23. I’m with the ‘Snape’s a good guy, but Dumbledore’s really dead’ crowd.

    I’d actually be pìššëd if he came back. He could (and probably will) come back as a spirit, a memory etc., but as a living, walking, healthy man… I don’t think so.

    To me, Snape has always been the greatest character in the Potter books (not to mention films). The fact that Rowling managed to keep the suspicions about his loyalties hanging until the seventh book is probably the best thing Half-blood prince has to offer.

    Still, I find it hard to believe the series will end with the next title. Harry still has to destroy most of Voldemort’s Horcruxes… and without Dumbledore’s help, for that matter. They spent the whole book just to destroy one (that wasn’t even there). Specially when you think harry just got hit butt kicked by Snape, who isn’t supposed to have a fraction of Volide’s powers.

    But then, he could be hiding his stuff from everybody. He is a great Occlumens, after all.

    Anyway, didn’t really like the book. The weakest since Chamber of secrets, in my opinion. The ending is great, hectic and so on, but the core of the book isn’t that interesting. I find that writing romantic teen drama isn’t Rowling’s cup of tea.

    Still, to me, the most shocking revelation was the fact that the three main characters won’t go back to Hogwarts the next year. Worse still is the fact that they only won’t go to school because she invented that Horcrux thing, which was the poorest plot twist she ever came up with regarding the universe she created.

    I enjoy those Slughorn theories, but I still don’t think the guy’s evil. Just a coward, or something like that. But then, he is vain, and ambitious, and Voldemort is in the best position to please those traits.

    Oh, and that Snape-is-the-half-blood-prince thingy was way too predictable.

    Cheers,

24. Like many, I read the book quickly, but don’t have it at hand, so I may be missing a few things, but nonetheless, here are some more thoughts/spoilers/speculations:

    1) When Harry and Dumbledore go to retrieve the Horcrux, Dumbledore has to down a whole lot of some bizarre potion so Harry can retrieve what’s at the bottom. While we see the effects on Dumbledore, I don’t think Dumbledore identifies the potion. (I was kinda expecting another instance of Rowling’s nameplay nomenclature like “Polyjuice” or whatever…) But since we’re not told what the potion does, maybe ingesting it had some effect on Dumbledore that lasted during the battle with Snape later…? Kinda a long shot, I know…

    2) Fans have speculated that the “R.A.B.” of the note left where the locket Horcrux was left is Regulus Black, Sirius’s brother. I’m told that in the last book, an odd locket is described as being among Sirius’s possessions. And from this book, we know that Harry has inherited Sirius’s possessions–and that this Mundungus Fletcher character may have been stealing stuff from Sirius’s (now Harry’s) house. So it seems that the trail to at least one of the remaining Horcruxes had been foreshadowed quite a bit.

    3) Despite the fact that we see Dumbledore die–and his funeral!–there’s a part of me that wants to say not only that he survived but explaining it by saying “Yeah, but this is all magic!” I mean, I don’t want to think Rowling would pull a magic deus-ex-machina, but she could. Maybe Dumbledore cast some sort of Crazy Magic Twin spell, splitting himself in two, so that Snape could fulfill his Unbreakable Vow by killing one of them, and leaving the other to continue his work.

    For that matter, maybe Dumbledore already has something like this going, in the person of his established-but-not-quite-so-much-as-to-be-conspicuous brother…

25. Here’s an interesting prediction for the future of Harry Potter!

    http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurel714/254486.html

26. Over at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html
    JK Rowling does say “Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I’m working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That’s the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn’t it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.” There are lots of other interesting things in the interview as well.

    I believe Dumbledore is dead, and Snape is still secretly working against Voldemort. I think Dumbledore’s portrait will give some information in the next book. I think Dumbledore was asking for Snape to kill him. From the first book, Dumbledore says that death is the next journey for the well-planned mind or something like that.

    I don’t think there is any way that Draco Malfoy is related to Snape. The physical characteristics of Draco and his father have been described as much too similar for there to be any doubt. Yes, from Tonks we know that people can change their appearance, but I don’t think this could be the case.

    Now, JK could always change her mind about many things. Until we actually get the book in two years (or so) nothing is certain.

    Neil

27. I’d come up with Regulus Black as RAB as well, but forgot about the “odd locket” mentioned above. My wife further speculated that Regulus could also have faked his death, alive and on the run all these years. If so, then not only would Harry have a welcome ally in his search for the Horcruxes, but also a tie to his Godfather (who I truly believe ain’t coming back). A new mentor and “uncle” for Harry? To me, this seems not only possible but likely. It’s a great way to tie both roles to one person.

28. I’m in the “Dumbledore is actually dead” camp, but admit there’s something I can’t reconcile with that: why does he send Harry to get the invisibility cloak before the journey to the cave? Dumbledore ought to have remembered that he told Harry to carry it with him everywhere that year…still, I don’t think that you get the portrait, even sleeping, or the Phoenix leaving, with a fake death, or that a fake death would be consistent with JK’s established level of authorial fairness.

    I’m dead certain that Snape did it entirely at Dumbledore’s request.

    I’m also not in the Harry as Horcrux camp. My guess as to the last Horcrux: the Hogwart’s official Golden Snitch. Based mostly on the dramatic possibilities of the last game of the last season being interrupted by a death eater attack, Hermionie realizing that the Snitch is a Horcrux and what the attackers are after, and a big no-rules aussie rules quiddich match as the second-to-last climax for the book.

    I do still think that Harry’s a metamorphmagus. [Tonks says that only they can change their appearances without using a wand. Harry changes his appearances, reversing even the most radical haircuts, without a wand and untrained in the first book.]. I’m beginning to expect that that will be the key to the ending–it’ll look like Harry dies, but actually one of the others will have died and Harry will assume his identity to be able to live a more normal life…

29. Mark said:
    Dumbledore’s dead. Accept it. I find it interesting that he may have somehow switched places with Slughorn or Snape, but this would really be coming out of left field. The only way we know something like this could happen would be Polyjuice Potion…which would be impossible to maintain without having the other person around.

    Not at all out of left field; there’s so much foreshadowing and discussion of magical disguise in the book that it would be surprising if there weren’t a more significant masquerade going on than Crabbe and Goyle turning themselves into girls. And there is a specific clue in that “Dumbledore” isn’t who he seems to be in the prelude to the cave expedition — he tells Harry to “fetch” the Invisibility Cloak, even though much earlier he’d told Harry to keep that cloak in his possession at all times.

    Nor is Polyjuice Potion the only means of magical disguise available. Arthur Weasley mentions a market in Metamorph-Medals early on (the ones he’s talking about are fakes, but there’s no reason a genuine counterpart couldn’t exist). Tonks has similar powers of disguise. Slughorn’s illusion-casting has been noted. And if Dumbledore were an Animagus on top of everything else….

    There’s a line in one of Dumbledore’s conversations with Harry that may be relevant here; he comments that being so clever, the mistakes he makes are therefore huger. I think this is part of the setup for Book 7 as well — that disguising himself as Snape and insinuating himself into the Death Eater sanctum seemed like a good idea at the time, but will backfire spectacularly on him when the disguise fails — and require Harry’s intervention to bail him out.

    ////

    I will actually be surprised if Our Heroes don’t turn up at Hogwarts after all in the fall. Three reasons: 1) the subtitles of all the prior books are “Year X at Hogwarts”; 2) too many of the other characters — and a couple of the outstanding Horcruxes — are strongly tied to Hogwarts; 3) Voldemort’s own attraction to Hogwarts, remarked on by Dumbledore, is likely to lead him there as well.

30. I think Dumbledore is dead, but I think Snape is still acting. Getting the trust of Voldemort and protecting Harry would be more important than Dumbledore’s life.

31. I think Dumbledore is dead, but I think Snape is still acting. Getting the trust of Voldemort and protecting Harry would be more important than Dumbledore’s life.

32. I think Dumbledore is dead, but I think Snape is still acting. Getting the trust of Voldemort and protecting Harry would be more important than Dumbledore’s life.

33. John,

    But, as far as we know (which means it’s a cheap trick if Rowling uses it) the medals, or Tonks’ or Slughorn’s abilities don’t change who they really are. (Honestly, all we ever saw Slughorn do was turn into a Slughorn-like sofa, right?) In fact, neither does Polyjuice Potion. I don’t think there’s any way to get around that Unbreakable Vow without actually having the real Dumbledore be dead.

    As far as Dumbledore telling Harry to fetch the Invisibility Cloak, did Harry have it on him at the time? (My copy’s been loaned out.) If so, isn’t that then just another example of Dumbledore knowing more than he lets on, which he’s shown plenty of in the previous books?

    Wasn’t Dumbledore’s line about his cleverness leading to huge mistakes pretty much the foreshadowing for the apparent betrayal by Snape? … Ah, but couldn’t it also mean that having Snape set up as such a great spy has led to having to sacrifice himself to keep that great spy in play? Not that Dumbledore fears death, he’s stated that many times (another clue that he’s really dead?), but I’m sure he’d rather live than not.

    And this wasn’t brought up in the book, but is it possible that Voldemort wanted to come back to Hogwarts to get “his” basilisk?

34. Dumbledore’s dead. While Rowling has had some misteps in the series, She’s skilled enough to know that “well, he wasn’t really dead” would be cheating, verging on “It was all a dream.” A key theme of the last two books has been that sometimes Bad Things Happen. His death has to stand.

    Relatedly, I think we need to trust Dumbledore’s assessment of Snape. Snape as betrayer is 1. too obvious and 2. would negate many books of claims. Another key point of the last two books has been that the world isn’t black and white, but is complex and full of shades of grey. That’s why Snape is so interesting; he seems evil, but apparently is more complex.

    Given these two points, I conclude that Snape killed Dumbledore in pursuit of a greater good. Snape’s clearly the sort that would claim that the ends justify the means. If Snape genuinely believed that Dumbledore’s death would better serve the wizard community as a whole, then I’m prepared to believe Snape would kill Dumbledore. It’s also been suggested that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. I’m willing to believe that as well. Given two possible explanations for Snape’s actions, Dumbledore being really dead is a reasonable option.

    Ultimately, the books are about Harry maturing and taking responsibility. Dumbledore’s been a crutch for Harry for a long time. By removing Dumbledore we push Harry to self-sufficiency. Just in time for the final book. How convienent.

    Unrelatedly, I’m sympathetic to no-one _appearing_ to trust Harry’s assessment of Malfoy. His friends don’t trust Harry because they’re too close to Harry. To Hermione and Ron Harry can’t be the Chosen One; he’s the guy they hang out with. They knew Harry hated him since year one. As for the adults, those in a position to do something generally did. McGonagal passed the information on to Dumbledore. Mr. Weaseley re-searched the Malfoy home. Dumbledore appears to have had Snape watching Draco. I don’t think it’s that no one believed Harry, it’s that the people who could do something about it failed to catch Draco. Given Harry’s own ability to outwit the adults, can’t Draco succeed once?

35. “I’m joining with the “I don’t believe he’s dead” crowd. Why? Because one of the main thrusts of the book was learning to THINK what spell you’re trying to cast, without saying it. Which means that what Snape SAID wasn’t necessarily what he was THINKING. And if he was thinking about some spell that simulated death, then the words he uttered are irrelevant.”

    [msm3212] While that’s certainly a possibility, Rowling seems to have a certain respect for character deaths. I really don’t think she intends to bring Dumbledore back in any way. That would render the death scene, and the funeral, rather meaninless from an emotional standpoint.

    I mean, what it comes down to is that for Dumbledore to be truly dead, Rowling has made him look like an idiot for having defended Snape for the previous books. Which, if she wants to do that, okay, it’s her call. But then it brings everyone else down a few pegs, not the least being Voldermort who feared Dumbledore above all others. If one man’s death diminishes us all, Dumbledore’s death diminishes pretty much everyone in the book who valued his wisdom and power. Which may not bother Rowling one iota, but it bothers me. Then again, she’s the multimillionaire and I’m just some guy with a quirky blog, so…

    [msm3212] You know, this response surprises me PAD. You recently chastised some fans on the Hulk message board for not seeing what you seemed to think was obvious concerning the upcoming Hulk issue (Bruce’s old, forgotten college fling). Rowling has time and again provided sufficient justifications for a lot of the nagging questions that have popped up during the series. I would be willing to bet a bag of Big League Chew and my homemade (and screen-accurate) Proton Pack that it’s not as simple as you describe, and that, in the end, Dumbledore’s death will diminish nothing.

    Of course, we won’t know for a few more years…

36. Mark said:
    Dumbledore’s dead. Accept it.

    To which I say, Ha-ha! NEVER!

    ‘K, a few things.

    1) Interesting idea of Snape being the impersonator. Don’t think it is true, because I can’t see Dumbledore losing his temper and hurting Harry like Snape did (though he was trying to protect Harry and keep him from using the Unforgivable Curse). I think that in the event the Slughorn theory is wrong, (very possible), I am almost 100% positive that Dumbledore then asked Snape to kill him, and Snape did it reluctantly. If the Slughorn theory is right, then Snape has some extra atoning to do if he survives Book 7. I don’t think he will.

    2) I didn’t notice the bit with “Dumbledore” asking Harry to fetch his cloak. Cool.

    3) The “Snitch as Horcrux” theory. I read in an interview that Rowling wrote her last Quidditch match in Book 6, so… I’m thinking the Horcrux is in the Sorting Hat or the Gryffonder sword, which will still bring them back to Hogwarts.

    4) Having seen too many characters revived in comics, I can certainly appreciate how it more or less cheapens the “death story” to bring them back. On the other hand, if anybody can do it in a creative and effective way, it is Rowling. On the OTHER other hand (Tevye: “There is no other hand!”), if she said that she does not believe in bringing characters back from the dead, then I’m inclined to believe her, and my Slughorn theory is dead. Also, the Slughorn stuff I mentioned before may be entirely red herrings set by her.

    5) Snape’s Unbreakable Vow. My wife goes by the theory in regard to the death spell is that as long as you don’t think it and mean it, it don’t work. We both think that Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape did an Unbreakable Vow to always follow Dumbledore’s orders or never to harm Dumbledore. If one Unbreakable Vow cancels the other one’s out…
    Also, there is always the letter of the law. Finding a way to literally meet the Vow’s requirements, without doing it in spirit.

    6) Harry having to be the one on the final journey. I don’t think Dumbledore being alive would necessarily stop that from happening. Let me put it this way. I think Dumbledore showing up as Slughorn would be a nice way to distract and surprise Voldemort, but Dumbledore knows that Harry has to be the one to finish it (and that would partially be his reason for faking his death) and Harry would be the one to finish it.

37. As much as I love the character of Dumbledore, I hope he really is dead. If he comes back in book 7, she might as well name the the thing ‘Albus Dumbledore and the Forgotten Protagonist.’ I think the Joseph Campbell reference is spot on- how much more diminished would Return of the Jedi’s ending be if Luke had Yoda and Mace Windu backing him up? Harry’s had his fat pulled out of the fire from outside sources long enough, he has to stand on his own two feet for the big finish.

    Besides, wasn’t the old boy was like, 167 years old or something? That’s a plenty good run.

    I don’t think Dumbledore was impersonating Snape because of the way Harry related to Snape as the latter fled the castle. The dialogue was rooted in the pre-estrablished foundation between the two characters. If Snape was in fact Dumbledore, he would at least have offered Harry a clue.

    But then, my own theory’s a little out there too, so take that for what it’s worth.

38. My review doesn’t cover all the reasons why I love this book, but I’m also hoping that Snape does end up being the bad guy, either by choice or by tragedy. Having Dumbledore be wrong about one thing, about one very important thing, would humanize him.

    Then again, that’s quite a clever little loophole if a spellcaster can think one spell and say another. Sleight of tongue?

39. Here’s an interesting prediction for the future of Harry Potter!

    http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurel714/254486.html

    Amusing but piffle compared the the true future of our favorite Hogwartians as revealed in the epic saga that is KILL HARRY!

    http://kungfool.transpect.net/webpages/stuff/hk01.html

    And yes, it’s exactly what you think it is . . .

    (And I’ve really got a lot to say about 1/2 BLOOD PRINCE. I’d just need to reread it quickly to gather my thoughts.)

40. I just finished the book, and my wife hasn’t read it yet, so we haven’t had the chance for the usual discussion of wild theories we have for each book. However, I would say that my first impression is that if Dumbledore is dead, he’s “dead” like Gandalf or Aslan (or possibly Obi-Wan). The funeral scene actually seemed sort of perfunctory to me, rather than what you would expect from the death of a Great One in Harry’s world. (Perhaps that’s just because the stories are largely how Harry would perceive them, and he has a lot going on by the end of this book.)

41. Has it occurred to no one that even if Dumbledore is dead (and I’m one of those who believes unequivocally that he *is*–otherwise, why would Fawkes the Phoenix have flown away?), he may yet return as a ghost? In Book Five, there was an awful lot of attention given to the fact that Sirius could not return as a ghost. Attention could have been drawn to this so that the other major death, Dumbledore, could be subverted or avoided in this way.

    Besides, who better to haunt Hogwarts than Albus Dumbledore? He’d certainly keep Peeves in line…

42. I got the sense from the above-referenced interview on Leaky Cauldron that JKR is happy to be done with writing Quiddich matches, and that Albus is really truly dead but that some sort of Dumbledore family appearance might occur. And with the phoenix symbology during the funeral … perhaps Albus has been rather literally reborn?

43. Why can’t Dumbledore have a hoarcrux?

    Just a thought.

44. — I agree that Dumbledore is really dead, though I think he will probably be seen in the portrait in book 7. Interesting how the former headmasters just appear there.

    — I don’t think Harry is a horcrux — wasn’t Voldemort actively trying to kill him at the end of book 5, and book 4 too, for that matter? I don’t think a living thing, if used as a horcrux, would be much use once it was dead.

    — R.A.B. can be Regulus but he can still be dead. His note & theft of the horcrux can predate his death, or even be the reason for it.

    — I really liked the stuff with Fleur and Bill at the end. I don’t like Fleur much (and I really hate how Rowling writes out the way her accent sounds; it’s much more annoying than it is with Hagrid) but she rose in my estimation and showed that she really loved him, no matter what he looked like.

    — I liked Lupin and Tonks a lot, too. I hope to see more of them in the next book. And Kingsley Shacklebolt, who just might have the best name ever 🙂

45. Why can’t Dumbledore have a hoarcrux?

    Just a thought.

    ——–

    Because it would involve murder, and I don’t see Dumbledore as the type to do it.

    David

46. Great book.

    Personally, I think Dumbledore is alive. I believe Snape and Dumbledore switched identities! Snape made an unbreakable vow when he joined the Order of the Phoenix. He made an unbreakable vow to Malfoy’s mother. If he kills Dumbledore, he dies… If allows Malfoy to be killed, he dies. How does he win? Dumbledore and Snape use polyjuice and switch identities… Dumbledore (disguised as Snape)kills Snape (disguised as Dumbledore) and infiltrates the Deatheaters while protecting Malfoy. Snape’s death = not breaking the unbreakable vow. C’mon, Dumbledore can protect Malfoy a heckuva lot better than Snape can.

47. I dunno about all the people who are worried about bringing Dumbledore back being a Deus ex Machina. There have been plenty of times when a major character has been brought back from the dead, and it looked good.

    for instance: Spock, Gandalf, and Kirk (in Tholian space, and in the Nexus, as well as in the books Shatner wrote.) and Aslan.

    In all of those situations, the revival was well done, and fit well into the plot.

    personally, I think that this was DUMBLEDORE for the love of God!! If anyone could block/stop/deflect a killing curse he could.

    and as for needing a wand to do magic, in the first book, there is a scene where Harry’s broom goes nuts, and Snape is looking up at and muttering under his breath, apparently jinxing it (as it turns out, though, he is actually trying to save harry, but no matter.) The point is, both he and Quirrel (the actual jinxer) were doing magic without wands.

    It appears that the wands might act more as focusing agents for magic, rather then the actual sorce of the power. After all, the main test of magical ability is doing something magical without a wand, (Harry’s hair, the pane of glass, Neville’s bouncing) and the wand merely brings it together.

48. As to spoilers, T-shirtHell.com has a great new shirt, black with green “Potter” font saying;

    Dumbledore Dies on Page 596,
    I Just Saved You 8 Hours and 30 Dollars!

49. Been waiting for this HP chat eagerly…lots of good comments. I think Dumbledore is dead; I hope Snape is bad, but fear he’s actually good; I agree that RAB must be Regulus Black, but I’m sure Regulus is dead. I think Harry will end up at Hogwarts next year to put an end to Lord Voldemort…and I think he will have to sacrifice himself to do it.

    RAB: If RAB is Regulus Black, he must have been more of a Death Eater than Sirius thought, to have found out about the Horcrux(es). I think that Regulus was killed by Voldemort because he found out that Regulus knew about the Horcrux(es).(Voldemort is “the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen,” after all). Lupin mentions at Harry’s birthday that he was surprised Karkaroff made it a year after deserting Lord Voldemort, that Regulus had only made it a few days…

    The Potion: So Dumbledore could put his hand past the barrier with a goblet…why couldn’t he just poured it into a different basin? Why did he have to drink it? That didn’t make sense to me. And when Harry found out the necklace wasn’t a Horcrux, I thought…Dumbledore didn’t know what this potion was, so how could RAB know what it was and be able to replace it so Voldemort didn’t know it had been tampered with until he went to retrieve his Horcrux?

    The Cloak: When Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch his cloak, I assumed he meant his regular cloak…like the one you wear when it’s cold outside. After all, this is Northern England/Scotland, and the Dementors are breeding, right? Or, alternatively, he may have just used the cloak as an excuse to send him back to the dormitory so he could say goodbye to Ron and Hermione, since it was so dangerous to go.

    The Prince: I originally figured the Half-Blood Prince was Voldemort…but Snape fits too.

    Dumbledore: I think Dumbledore is actually dead, not because of the painting or Fawkes leaving, or the funeral, but because McGonagall was able to get into the Headmaster’s…well, now Headmistress’ office. If Dumbledore wasn’t dead, the office would have sealed itself against her, like it did to Umbridge in HP5. The arguement could be made that, as an OOTHP member, she and Dumbledore could have pre-arranged this, but the ancient magic in the Hogwarts castle leads me to believe he really is dead…even though I keep reading the book, hoping I was wrong the first 15 times I read it, and that Dumbledore didn’t really die.

    My hope for HP7-We don’t have to wait two years or longer for it; and that Arthur Weasley becomes Minister for Magic, after Voldemort is killed. After all, they did win the Quidditch Cup in HP5. 😀

50. So glad this thread is finally here. I’m in the not dead camp.

    It seems to me that the whole point of this series has been for Harry not to follow in the steps of Voldermort, who was a loner and did things by himself so as not to share the rewards with others. With the ending he’s already on that path, with a caveat – people are looking after him but he doesn’t know, because if he did he thoughts could be picked up on by certain Wizards.

    There is a reason Dumbledore trusts Snape and I have a feeling it has something to do with Potters parents.

    After Snape “kills” Dumbledore and Harry gives chase it seems that Snape is going out of his way to hiss instructions to Harry on what he’s doing wrong, why give hime tips if he hated Harry.

    Also, the whole point of the book and Dumbledore’s trust in Snape is beaten to death so that we will be “shocked” by Dumbledore’s death. It was just a ruse. Snape can block his thoughts better than anyone and can cast spells non-verbally; I think he put the big D in a trance like state that resembles death but which can be reversed.

    I enjoyed this book just as much as the other segments, have them all on audiobook,its going to be torture to see how JK wraps the story up.

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