Yes, you all know who he is. I will now respond to the two questions he’s been howlingly repeating because, y’know…why not? And the rub of it is, he probably won’t understand either answer.
Response number one: The fact that I have not disagreed with his assessment of my veracity is not an indicator that what he says has worth. Rather, it’s an indicator of my belief that his opinion of me is, in fact, worthless.
Response number two: He has demanded to know how any of our individual lives are hurt or worsened because of the actions of George W. Bush…a man who needlessly launched a war that’s resulted in the deaths of 1600+ Americans and thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqis. The answer is quite simple:
“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of they friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”
–John Donne
And thus am I Donne with the clod.
PAD
• 
joe v.,
I’d gladly pay more taxes if it meant national health coverage in the U.S. Part of this comes from the fact that I’m far too poor to aford to insure myself and I didn’t hit the employment lottery and end up workiing for a large company that that can afford to cover its employees.
Also, I think that the current medical system in the U.S. is insane. The idea that making it a profit driven industry has not made it less costly, but simply created a system that emphasises procedures and drugs that cost zillions. If the medical industry were regulated, we wouldn’t be paying much more than any developed nation in the world and getting worse medical results than any developed nation.
And that doesn’t even address the societal savings that we’d glean from vastly reducing the single largesgt cause and bankruptcy in the U.S.: unpayable medical bills following a major medical problem. This cause is more prevalent than even job loss or divorce (reasons 2 & 3). And I’m not even going to touch the bilk of goods (pun intended) that the Credit Card companies sold to Congress when they got them to make it much more difficult to discharge credit card debt in bankruptcy.
Paying more in taxes or continuing to pay outrageous insurance premiums every month. Whats the difference? The only one I can think of is that at least everyone would be able to get care, not just the ones who can afford the insurance.
As opposed to Bush’s medicare rewrites, where taxes are arbitrarily funneled to drug companies?
and the hilarity doesn’t stop there:
In other words, even the deceptive cost estimate given to congress was for 2004-2013, not 2006-2015 — when the new entitlement was scheduled to begin.
Again, the poor who voted for Bush voted against their own self-interest — like a prostitute knifing a guy for stopping her pimp from beating her.
What is the mystery?
I know there’s no point in this.. But…
Oh, the problems in your response.
1) “Stop pushing the idea that every Republican voter is either tricked, hypnotized or forced to vote Republican.”
That’s an odd tact to take since I have never posted anything like that at all. Never mentioned anything close to that. I have said some people, not all, who voted for Bush and defend him seem just plum stupid though.
2) “every Republican voter…”
I never said word one about Republican voters. I said conservatives. I find that many self described R’s and many self described conservatives to be different animals all together. Many a self described R just follow the party line without question. Many self described conservatives vote what they believe and not by the letter after a pol’s name.
3) “Realize that maybe — just maybe — conservatives know how to define their own interests better than you, a liberal, think you do.
I’d go on to the next step, but I doubt you could EVER get past step one! Certainly your party has not, as is proven by the many hysterical responses in this one thread alone.”
Hmmmmm…. So, I’m a liberal. News to me. And, what party pray tell is my party? Did I vote for Kerry? Yes. But, as I stated here and elsewhere at the time, I didn’t like Kerry. I said then and say now that the D’s were stupid to choose him to run. He was too far left, I thought, for most the country. I was only a wee bit wrong though since he did pull 48% of the vote. A higher amount then I thought he would. I just liked Bush less. My stated reasons for voting Kerry was that the election run up had gotten so nasty that there was no way the he would allow the R’s a policy victory and that there was no chance in Hëll that the R’s would let him have anything close to one either. The hoped for result? The two forces would only get things done by pulling each other towards the middle. If Dee were still around she could back that easy. We argued that point for months in emails back and forth. Anybody else might have to strain the brain to back me here.
And how does my voting go toward “my party?” Hmmmm. Can’t figure that one out myself. I voted Bush in 88 and 92, Clinton in 96, Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. Two votes R and three votes D. In my home state of Virginia I went Wilder (D), skipped a vote, Gilmore (R), Warner (D) and will most likely go for Kilgore (R) this go round over Kaine (D). Yeah, I’m just such a far left Lib who votes in lock step with my party, huh. My “party” is this country and I vote for who I think will best lead her or how the powers will balance to best serve her. Nothing more or less. You know nothing about me or most the people you are talking to here. To claim, as a point of your argument, that my veiwpoints are because of “my party” or my “liberal” leanings when you know almost nothing about me, my voting habits or my posts on this site long before you showed up only shows a foolish nature on your part and weakens your argument greatly.
4) “conservatives know how to define their own interests better than you….”
Let us look at those interests as defined by public statements over the years of conservatives and then look at the actions of the present group of R’s running the show.
A) Smaller Gov’t.
The size and scope of the FedGov has ballooned. For eight years under Clinton the conservatives in America complained that the FedGov was too large and that it was getting into things that should be the rights or jobs of the states. Bush even pledged lots of reforms along the lines of what they wanted in the run up to 2000. Once in, the Bush and the R’s did a 180 and made the spending and FedGov growth of the Clinton 90’s look like pocket change. Bush lied in 2000. Conservatives took him at face value then. But how could they buy the same lie in 2004?
B) Strong boarders.
Not only has Bush done nothing to secure or enforce our borders but he has come up with dumb ideas that give illegals more reason to come here. It wasn’t a D who stood before the American public and said that he wanted to give amnesty to any illegal from South of the border who was here by a set date. It wasn’t a D who called a group of people who wanted to walk the borders and act as eyes (not arrest, detain or shoot at anyone) for the Border Patrol names on national TV. And it’s not a D who is making nice nice with the leader of a country that is handing out governmet printed instructions on the best way to sneak across the border and into the U.S. and what to do when here to best avoid detection and deportation. A problem made worse by the fact that it is now known that there are terrorist cells in South America with ties to the Middle East who are looking at coming on up-a-this-a-way.
C) State’s Rights.
Yeah, that’s a joke with this group.
D) Fiscal responsibility.
Gotta love that one. Now that he R’s hold all three branches of the FedGov and we have so much more fiscal responsibility then the 90’s. Oops. No we don’t. Even after subtracting the costs of war we have a federal budget that has swelled beyond belief. The debt has skyrocketed and the pork with the R’s fingerprints puts to shame anything done by the D’s before them. They act like people who don’t know what “fiscal responsibility” means. And, as I said above, China owns most of our debt. You just have to love the security in that.
E) A strong Military.
I think I covered that well enough in my prior post. But I should also add, coming from a military family with a number of war vet retirees, that what I have seen done to the benifits and rights of retired Vets in the last five years in order to help cut costs and balance out Bush’s tax cut should sicken anyone who claims to support the troops. These men and women were promised things in return for their service in wars and abroad and now the FedGov, run by the R’s, is telling them to take a long walk off of a short plank.
F) Truth and values.
Truth? Gee, Bush lies on TV about the budget and how much it has grown. bush lies about the number of stem cell lines we have. Bush lies in his State of the Union Address (pre-invasion) by saying that no inspectors were being allowed in Iraq when the news had live reports that day of, guess who, the U.N. inspectors in Iraq. The Bush Admin lies about WMDs. They lied about knowing where they were, where they were made, where they were stored (but couldn’t be bothered to tell the inspectors this bit of info) and then act like they have no clue (since they didn’t) once they got the invasion they wanted. I could keep going.
Values? Only when they can broadcast from a church or sign a bill there for PR. I thought it was so funny how many of the R’s pointing their dirty little fingers at Clinton were forced to fall on their own swords when they all started getting outed for affairs and wrong doings but still kept their high ratings from Christion PAC groups and G.O.P. boosters. Remember, the R motto is that affairs are only bad if their done by D’s.
How about this tidbit from the A.P. and Worldnetdaily.com today. A paragraph from the report:
“While officially White House spokesmen continue to pretend they are unaware a pornographer and a pørņ star will attend a presidential fund-raising dinner for Republican congressional candidates, the adult-film company behind the gimmick is making the most of the photo opportunity the event presents. Mark Kulkis, president of Kick A– Pictures, which specializes in hard-core pørņ, has issued press releases explaining “he was personally invited to” the 2005 President’s Dinner and proclaiming his presence, along with that of his guest, pørņ star Mary Carey, will “make pop culture history.””
See, this isn’t new news. But you don’t hear the R’s going on about it, do you? Now, if Clinton were to have had dinner with pørņ stars…….
G)Personal Responsibility in times of war.
Look at the war years of the past. R’s and D’s both saw the need to fund the dámņëd things. The American public saw the need and took the responsibility to tighten their belts, eat a bit more taxes and do whatever they could to support the cause and troops. Now? I sent five Camelbacks over to the troops with a group that was pulling that kind of thing together. There is a woman who shows up on Fox and CNN from time to time to promote her group that sends AC’s and other basic need items to the troops. My best friend donated a chunk of his April paycheck to the group that is setting the troops up with phone cards so they can call home. These are all good things and I will agree with Bush when he, rarely, speaks well of the people putting these groups together or doing this kind of thing. But think about this. In a time of war we have a Prez and a party and its supporters who want their wealthy man’s tax break so bad that they are jacking the debt and turning the military into a needy organization. The boys over seas are having to be treated like a charity case because we can’t fund everthing they need in a time of war to preserve the greed of a tiny few. Hëll, I have friends coming home on leave who talk about not having basic items. Soldiers have always joked about supply problems in the military in the past but what’s going on now isn’t a joke. It’s sick. Love them conservative values, don’t you?
I could keep going and going and going here.
So, at what point does a conservative say enough is enough and vote someone out of power? At what point do you send the R’s a message that they need to walk what they talk and live up to their “values?” When do you put them in the minority and tell them that the deal is they feild people who will live up to their promises or they don’t get back in power? How long do you defend them and allow them to mock everything conservatives claim to believe in and want? Or do you just go, “he an R. R good. D bad. Vote R. Defend R from bad people who say abd things about R.”
See, I’m complaining about Bush and the R’s right now because he is the one in power and doing all the dumb stuff. They are calling the shots. But when we have had D’s doing stupid things, telling lies on an almost daily habit, screwing the troops or trashing what this country stands for I have spoken out against them as well. It’s just right now, It’s Bush doing all that and more.
And it’s you who comes off as hellbent to defend lies and perversions of conservative and, for that matter, Republican beliefs, traditions and stands no matter what just to support a man with an R next to his name. And that, to me, comes off as voting against and acting against ones own best interests at best or sheer stupidity at worst.
I could say much more. But, from your many posts, you’ll just claim I’m a lib and all I say is Bush sucks and Bush is bad and bleet on about some nonpoint that I didn’t make or something I didn’t say. So, why bother with more.
Theotherblogger,
“You’re assuming that we like everything they are doing. I, for one, really couldn’t stand the Medicare reform because every entitlement costs more than the so-called projections. Having said that, the Democrats in Congress have zero credibility on fiscal restraint. When they get some, I might consider voting for one.”
No, I’m not. I did say many and not all. But you have to agree that the vote count in 2004 would indicate that it was a majority of the self described conservatives voting with Bush.
And all I can say about fiscal restraint:
Look at the Fed spending in the eight years prior to Bush. Now look at the Fed spending, minus war costs, under Bush. Look at the debt in the eight years prior to Bush. Look at the debt since Bush took office. Given those numbers, I think it’s safe to say that voting for a D majority in the House and Senate or a D Prez to balance the R House and Senate ain’t all that bad an idea. Hmm?
PAD,
I truly believe as a Marine and a New Yorker, when 9/11 transpired it changed the world as we know it. If those 1600+ lives of my military brethren had been lost in 1993 after the first bombing of the WTC, 3,000 of hard working Americans would not have been brutally murdered. Our Commander-in-Chief has taken hard and difficult steps toward making the world a safer place, just like our fathers and grandfathers did to ensure we can live in a free society. Freedom is not free and no comic book, as much as I love them, will ever change that. Do yourself a favor and learn to support your country and your president.
Who knew 9/11 was going to happen? What is stopping a nuclear/dirty bomb from hitting our country? Certainly not the Hulk or your website. So how can u say those 1,600 lives were senseless?
The solution to the war on terrorism is?
Will, USMC: it was reported this year that out of 30 people claiming to be a navy SEAL, only one of them actually were a seal.
If you are a marine, I’m sorry but if you don’t understand that Bush arbitrarily invaded an oil-rich Muslim country, feeding an insurgency that has killed 1600 soldiers, you voting for George Bush was a vote against their own self-interest — like a prostitute knifing a guy for stopping her pimp from beating her.
Pat Tillman’s armor was burned to thwart the investigation into his friendly fire death. The first official duty of a marine is to swear to put the constitution of the United States above his own life. You should be embarrassed and ashamed to have failed in this duty by sheltering this presidency.
That should be “your own self-interest.”
Will,
While I respect your service I think your reasoning is lacking. 1,600 lives have been lost in a war with a country that had nothing *NOTHING* to do with 9/11.
We had those bášŧárdš that hit us on the run and Bush and his admin, carrying out a ten year old plan hatched by most the people in the GWBA, pulled men and resources from that fight and stuck them in Iraq based on lies, spin, twisted facts and nothing else.
Can I say without doubt that Bin Laden and many more of his top guys would be dead or in our jails now had this not happened? No. But I’m sure as Hëll that the odds of that having become a fact would have been greater if we kept our eyes on the real ball and not a pet project of a neo-con think tank.
And, please, I have never had anyone explain to me that concept you bring up in a way that went beyond the R’s playbook sound byte answers.
When dealing with an enemy that has no nation, no home country and no set home to call its own:
How does attacking a country that had nothing to do with them or the attack they mounted make us safer? How does ignoring or embracing the countries that did help them and still harbor them make us safer? And, since the 9/11 attackers used common everday jets and not one single WMD, what do the dirty bombs, mushroom clouds, nuclear weapons, etc. that Bush supporters bring up at every chance really mean in relation to stopping another 9/11 attack? These people use humans and cars as bombs. They opperate on the cheap and easy. They took our towers down with box cutters and airplanes. Our own homegrown twit blew up a Federal building with a truck and some fertilizer. They know how to do massive damage with very little. Besides, don’t you think that they would have used a WMD on 9/11 when they were a larger, stronger more financed group if they were going to? Again, they operate on the cheap. That may one day change and is only as true as, “we haven’t been attacked since 9/11,” but it is true now and has been for years. How is being in Iraq, stretching or forces thin and getting sidetracked keeping us from “fighting them here” or in any real way make us safer?
Again, Will. I’m not disrespecting you or anyone who serves. I come from a long line of cops and soldiers and only ended up going with cop rather then soldier because of family needs and reasons way to long to get into here and would never insult either profession. But you brought this point up. You may have a better idea of how to answer those questions then others have and, if so, I would love to hear the answers you give.
“Bush arbitrarily invaded an oil-rich Muslim country.”
What are you implying? If Bush invaded to get oil, how was the invasion “arbitrary”?
Oh, I forgot — words mean nothing.
“Exponential” now means “just a tiny little bit,” and “arbitrary” now means “non-arbitrary.”
What is stopping a nuclear/dirty bomb from hitting our country? Certainly not the Hulk or your website.
And certainly not the Bush Administration with the lack of USEFUL security measures for the transportation industry (particularly, airlines) and the lack of agents patrolling our borders.
“Pat Tillman’s armor was burned to thwart the investigation into his friendly fire death. The first official duty of a marine is to swear to put the constitution of the United States above his own life. You should be embarrassed and ashamed to have failed in this duty by sheltering this presidency.”
Mike,
Yeah, Bush and Co. did that crap and made up a lie to feed the American public (what’s new) to create a hero image and get more people to sign up. Fine. But, please, don’t be an idiot and cross that fine line that puts you in the X-Ray camp as a total dìçk.
I have a lot of friends in the military and some of them only find out about some of the dumb crap like that when they come home. Others take the view that Bush and the service are two different things. Still others, like Will it seems, support Bush. Maybe I just have more respect for those in service then you but I think you can address points in conversation or debate with servicemen or women coming from that point of view without going nasty first. Now, if Will were to come back and get really nasty, I’m with you when the gloves come off. But give the guy the chance to show that he might be better then that.
From m-w.com:
Nice try, jáçkášš.
But, please, don’t be an idiot and cross that fine line that puts you in the X-Ray camp as a total dìçk.
I don’t see what was wrong with his post.
Like the Bush Administration, many soldiers seem to think that all Americans should step in line, do whatever Bush asks/wants, and respect him, even when the bášŧárd doesn’t deserve it.
He is, after all, the Commander in Chief, a title he doesn’t deserve either.
The insinutation is always that, if we hate Bush, we obviously hate America.
It’s such a pathetic leap in logic, that I’m surprised nobody takes that and applies it to another country: we hate Castro, but do we hate Cuba & all Cubans? Hëll no.
Oh, wait, I forgot about the stupid bûllšhìŧ some quarters like to give to Chirac and the French.
Your friends can do their duty, or they can do their duty and shelter this presidency. If your friends are sheltering this presidency, then they should be embarrassed and ashamed.
So what’s your problem?
you voting for George Bush was a vote against [your] own self-interest — like a prostitute knifing a guy for stopping her pimp from beating her.
How fortunate that you can discern his self-interest better than he can for himself. How ever did you get to be so smart? And so imaginative, coming up with a simile that can be used so frequently without losing any of its cachet or effectiveness.
I don’t see what was wrong with his post.
See above.
I truly believe as a Marine and a New Yorker, when 9/11 transpired it changed the world as we know it.
The only thing it changed in the world was giving idiots a rallying cry to be stupid. I’m sorry I don’t wish anyone dead especially 3000 innocent civilians, but we did it to ourselves. 50 years of mishandling relations with the muslim world and 30 years of idiocy in Aftganistan fighting the ‘evil empire’ came home to roost on 9/11.
If those 1600+ lives of my military brethren had been lost in 1993 after the first bombing of the WTC, 3,000 of hard working Americans would not have been brutally murdered.
Lost where? Hello, Osama is the architect of 9/11 and he’s living in Aftganistan or Pakistan. How do 1600 dead Americans in Iraq protect us from someone we can’t even seem to apprehend? It’s like saying you set off a nuke in LA to get someone in NY or to be a geek and go Kirk “you keep missing the target!” Bush and co have thrown away 1600 lives and countless Iraqis to accomplish absolutely nothing except run the deficite thru the roof! Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat and from the looks of it bush got an F in history.
Our Commander-in-Chief has taken hard and difficult steps toward making the world a safer place, just like our fathers and grandfathers did to ensure we can live in a free society.
Oh please, our CnC has done nothing but try to fatten his own wallet and those of his cronies. He thought he could win a quick battle and ride into Baghdad on a white horse and the Iraqis would bow down and kiss his feet. From there he could make money selling off their oil to rebuild the place. So far as a history buff with knowledge of the middle east everything I predicted has come true. Actually it’s been nastier than I expected. If anyone wanted to know how the people in this region would react, just read your history stretching back to the Roman empire. They haven’t changed in 3000 years and are staying true to form.
Freedom is not free and no comic book, as much as I love them, will ever change that.
With freedom comes responsibility. We are not being responsible, we have not made the world a safer place and believe it or not we will be hit again, that is just the facts of history. We will reap again what we have sown.
Do yourself a favor and learn to support your country and your president.
Ah the final call of the falling. You see the great thing about this country is we don’t have to. As an American citizen and patriot I call for the removal of Bush from government as is my right. I support the removal of our citizens from Iraq, that is my right and I will support no president who lies and hides the truth and cuases the death of our soldiers.
Who knew 9/11 was going to happen?
I knew it was a matter of time, in fact the first words out of my mouth after seeing the second plane hit the tower was “it finally happened.” I didn’t know what was going to happen, I didn’t know who would do it, but history and the correlation to our actions said it was only a matter of time. What is more surprising is it didn’t happen sooner.
What is stopping a nuclear/dirty bomb from hitting our country?
Logistics. It is more likely that a conventional bomb or biological disease will be the more likely next incident. Even with all the fear the news media and the Bush admin likes to spray out rapid fire, radioactive material is not that easily gained logistically. In fact a the next threat will more likely be bird flu than terrorist and like the tidal wave who are you going to go out and shoot because of that?
So how can u say those 1,600 lives were senseless?
Easily, their deaths are a complete waste of human life that will accomplish absolutely nothing in the long run as has been proven by 3000 years of history. Crack open a history book sometime, it’s been tried before and as now failed horribly. Rome at best held the area tenuously and more in name than fact. The Kahns were the most successful but did it more thru intermarrying and complete extermination of whole cities than ruling the people. The crusades were a complete failure. The British were in one fight after another trying to hold the area and ultimately were handed the heads on a platter not once but twice and 60 years after the last time are back at it with us again. Doesn’t anyone learn from history?
Oh and here’s another little prediction to you from someone who has learned from history: If we continue on our present course, we will see in our time either another great depression or ultimately our fate will be similar to that of the Soviet Union. Take your pick, neither one I want to experience but we will.
Well that sucks what happened to my nicely laid out post? Well there was suppose to be quotes in there with breaks between paragraphs. Argh. Sorry everyone.
What, like a prostitute never defended her own pimp before?
I read an editorial speculating that Michael Jackson wore pajamas to trial to blunt his accuser’s resolve to testify. Supposedly he was trying to evoke the cozy emotions in his accuser he used to manipulate him in the first place. “How can you betray me like this after what we shared?”
You think there are no guilty predators in Hëll?
” I’m sorry I don’t wish anyone dead especially 3000 innocent civilians, but we did it to ourselves.”
Yeesh. X-Ray is like some kind of space/time vortex, anyone who lingers too near gets sucked into saying something incredibly stupid. Run!
Holy cow, Robbnn, I knew you had dug yourself out of debt, but I didn’t know how deep it must have been. That really explains your convictions when discussing this topic in the past.
Doesn’t anyone learn from history?
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, & denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism & exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trial
Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch & the blood boils with hate & the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear & blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader & gladly so.
How do I know this? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
Julius Caesar
No, Osama bin Laden did it — after Bush finished his monthlong vacation, after reading a memo titled, “Bin Laden determined to strike in US.”
What is the mystery?
“Your friends can do their duty, or they can do their duty and shelter this presidency. If your friends are sheltering this presidency, then they should be embarrassed and ashamed.
So what’s your problem?”
Simple. I may be wrong but I haven’t seen his postings before. Neither you nor I know anything about his reasons for what he states in one short post. Do I disagree with his post? Yeah? Did I think his last line was a bit dense? Yeah. but seeing as how we all have been jumping on X for being a dìçk and a jáçkášš it doesn’t make us look any better to get nasty with a first short post. He may have a good answer that at least deserves respect if not agreement. But, like I said, if he goes the X route and acts like a dìçk and a jáçkášš then I’m right there with you when the gloves come off.
I know too many servicemen who support the mission and what they believe that they are doing for America that don’t really support Bush because they know he used bogus reasons to put them there. They just want to make the best of a bad situation and know that, hey, now that they’re there they have to focus on the mission because just letting everything collapse and go to Hëll would be a lot worse then doing what they can and fighting to keep it together. They can’t undo the last two years. They have to live with now. They have to finish a job that, while it may have been bogus in the begining, has been started and that they’re in the middle of. And since Bush won in 2004 they’re stuck with the no plan exit plan and stuck with being there. What should they all do? Go A.W.O.L.? Go to jail? They are stuck as of now until Bush gets impeached or the R’s lose in 2008.
I’m just saying we should give any servicemen a chance to fill in a few blanks before making statements that they may not be serviceman (as though that adds weight to your argument) or calling them idiots or comparing them to prostitutes.
Again, if he proves that he doesn’t deserve the respect then, fine, gloves off. But you wanna at least give him a chance before going total insult mode?
Having read the above as I wrote it I have only one fear now. If that jáçkášš X-Ray makes up a new posting name and claims to be a serviceman to push his garbage I will finally join the ban-his-ášš bandwagon.
“The only thing it changed in the world was giving idiots a rallying cry to be stupid. I’m sorry I don’t wish anyone dead especially 3000 innocent civilians, but we did it to ourselves. 50 years of mishandling relations with the muslim world and 30 years of idiocy in Aftganistan fighting the ‘evil empire’ came home to roost on 9/11.”
Bull. We had foolish leaders who did foolish things but the final act, the planning, the training, the taking of the jets and the attack of the towers and the taking of lives was done by no one other then the terrorists and only the terrorists. I know people who I have had to deal with for years who I hate. If I killed one of them tomorrow it was me that did it and not them doing something to deserve it.
Yeah, I’ve pointed out the dumb things that our leaders have done over the years that dámņëd sure didn’t help the situation or our image in the world but that is in no way saying that we deserved it. That has to take the prize as the dumbest thing said on the last few threads.
Jerry, when you said, “I know too many servicemen who support the mission and what they believe that they are doing for America that don’t really support Bush because they know he used bogus reasons to put them there” — what did I say that was inconsistent with this?
How does feeding the insurgency help out the mission your friends believe in?
“Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch & the blood boils with hate & the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear & blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader & gladly so.
How do I know this? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.”
Julius Caesar
I thought that this chestnut hadbeen put to bed back when noted historian Babs Steisand used it in a speech. Go to http://www.snopes.com/quotes/caesar.htm for the story.
Has anyone actually come forward and taken credit or are they too embarassed to do so after someone pointed out that most Roman swords were double edged so it probably wasn’t a common phrase back then?
Billus Mulliganus
Given those numbers, I think it’s safe to say that voting for a D majority in the House and Senate or a D Prez to balance the R House and Senate ain’t all that bad an idea. Hmm?
Nope, not at all. In fact, I voted for an Independent for the congressional seat last time around for the very reason that the Republicans aren’t offering any real fiscal restraint.
“what did I say that was inconsistent with this?”
Nothing. You just started your first post by questioning if he was a marine and got snotty with him. I pointed out that I wasn’t a big fan of that. You pointed out you have no problem with it. Fine. We have different styles when dealing with some things. Lets agree to disagree on styles, eh.
“How does feeding the insurgency help out the mission your friends believe in?”
How does letting a country we broke go to Hëll not feed the insurgency as well? We ain’t in the best spot over there but if we step wrong we could end up making things worse then before. I’m not defending the war or Bush. God knows, you can’t read anything else that I have posted and think that. But, we are there. We broke a country and removed its leader. We made that country open to an easy take over by any other country in that area and a whole lot of those countries hate us more then Saddam did and would love the added power base. We broke it, we bought it.
What do you think we should do? Just leave? Have fun guys. Sorry for the mess. Don’t mind the opening we just made for everybody else to come in and stomp a mudhole in you.
Bush is an ášš. But he got us stuck in a bad place. Hate him, disagree with the war or despise the lies used to start it; we have to finish what was started in some way shape or form. We have no choice. Not doing so would only make things worse there and, just maybe, here. So, yeah, I cut serviceman some alck for being touchy about the garbage can that Bush dropped them into and kinda want to hear their full reasons for stating what they do.
Like I said….
Our styles on these matters are different. You don’t agree with mine and I don’t agree with yours. Fine. we disagree on that. Fair enough to agree to disagree here and move on now?
Brian Peters:
Oh and here’s another little prediction to you from someone who has learned from history: If we continue on our present course, we will see in our time either another great depression or ultimately our fate will be similar to that of the Soviet Union. Take your pick, neither one I want to experience but we will.
I’ve mentioned similar sentiments before on this blog. But what can we expect from a man who ran several companies into the ground while his fathers’ wealthy friends bailed him out. I wonder who he thinks will bail out an entire county when he runs it into the ground. Not having paid the consequences for his actions in the past goes a long way to explaining his current actions.
“Who knew 9/11 was going to happen?”
Well, I would tend to think the people who wrote the memo, “Bin Laden Intends to Strike in the United States” certainly had some clue. Unfortunately, the report was never given the attention it should have been until after the fact.
“What is stopping a nuclear/dirty bomb from hitting our country? Certainly not the Hulk or your website. So how can u say those 1,600 lives were senseless?”
Will, I want to respect you and the job you do, but your post is disrespectful and arrogant. Just thought you should know.
I would like to think that the efforts of a coordinated intelligence network–a Department of Homeland Security, as recommended by the outgoing Clinton administration and brushed off by the Hussein-obsessed incoming Bush administration–is doing that job. The 1600 brave souls who perished and the many more who will continue to do so did not do that job because Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction. That is what makes their sacrifice so senseless, because they need not have died if Bush and his neo-Cons had not been hëll bent-for-leather determined to invade Iraq since the 1990s, way before 9/11 ever happened.
The entire attitude of your post is, unfortunately, lockstep thinking. The kind of thinking that says True Americans, patriotic Americans, must march to the drum of war as pounded by the White House, and anyone who does not is a bad American.
My belief is that the Commander in chief did not take difficult steps to make the world a safer place. I believe he and his neocons rushed into a war motivated by lust for oil and economic domination under the pretense of trying to make America safer. This plan was indisputably on the docket from before he took office, and he ruthlessly exploited a shell-shocked America–still reeling over 9/11–into believing that the next attack was going to come from Iraq. Through lies and deception, he and his Neocons actually convinced seven out of ten Americans that Iraqis were responsible for flying planes into the WTC. He has, quite simply, betrayed the trust of Americans. He has executed perfectly the concept of the Big Lie, i.e., it is far easier to get people to believe a Big Lie than a small lie.
The war in Iraq was a bin Laden dream come true (remember him? The guy we were going to get dead or alive? The guy Bush doesn’t think much about anymore? That bin Laden?) We turned the country into a bin Laden recruitment festival. The argument can be made that the world is, in fact, a MORE dangerous place than it was before, thanks to our playing into the worst preconceptions of this country and making them real to people who had no reason to fear and hate us before…and now do.
That is what I mean by senseless deaths.
PAD
>Bull.
Yep your post is bull.
> We had foolish leaders who did foolish things but the final act, the planning, the training, the taking of the jets and the attack of the towers and the taking of lives was done by no one other then the terrorists and only the terrorists.
Oh I see those untold Iraqi civilian deaths that our government refuses to total, well we can forget about them, they don’t exist. The terrorists based in Aftganistan and Arabia managed to kill less than 3000 people that day, and how many Iraqi civilians have we managed to kill? At best estimates we have managed to kill more Iraqis than Saddam did since the Gulf War and that total is far and away past 3000 people. You had a better chance of surviving under Saddam Hossein than under the “freedom” of US occupation!
> I know people who I have had to deal with for years who I hate. If I killed one of them tomorrow it was me that did it and not them doing something to deserve it.
Dealing in absolutes are we, well sorry the myth of a black and white world is only in the mind of our brain dead president and those who preceeded him. For every action there will be an equal and opposite reaction. And that applies just as relevantly to world politics as it does to physics. Cover your ears, close your eyes, scream out I’m not listening, but history has already judged us and we have reaped the whirlwind.
>Yeah, I’ve pointed out the dumb things that our leaders have done over the years that dámņëd sure didn’t help the situation or our image in the world but that is in no way saying that we deserved it.
It’s like the kid who sits there and plays with matches, he doesn’t necessarily deserve to get burned, but his actions are sooner or later going to lead to those consequences. We played fast and loose fighting the “evil empire”. We supported despots who did far worse things to their own people than Russia did to their own. We armed religious nutbar zealots and trained them to fight and now we cry when they decide to turn that gun on us. Well what the hëll do you expect
> That has to take the prize as the dumbest thing said on the last few threads.
The stupidity is in your own post, you are blind to the ramifications of the actions of your government. You endorse playing fast and loose and they you cry when it bits you in the butt. Do the Iraqi citizens deserve to die by the thousands because George Bush ordered it? Do they deserve to live in abject fear walking or driving down the street because people in their society don’t like foreigners dictating what they are going to do? Did the women of Aftganistan deserve to be turned into nothing more than chattle because we armed the Taliban and let them take control after they had kicked out the evil empire? Did thousands of africans deserve to die because we put we put a manical dictator in charge (I forget his name, little somthing)?
How about those millions of africans who have died in the name of tribal cleansing while we turn a blind eye? Did they deserve to die? We invade countries in the name of freedom and removal of tyanical despots who haven’t even attained anything close to the millions in Africa, but we just can’t be bother to intervene in Africa. Where is your moral indignity at the loss of human life there? Oh wait you don’t care about any human life but your own, those dead Iraqis don’t exist and don’t count.
Did we deserve it? That is only a question god can answer. What it is though is the fall out from foreign political agenda missmanagement that has been going on for 30+ years. Bury your head in the sand and jump up and down but our government handed a religious psychotic a gun, money and trained him and then pìššëd an unstable personality off. And the fact this psychotic and his taliban cohorts then turned and used what we had given them against us is why? Gee history is just rife with examples of the exact same thing happening again and again and again and I take it you got an F in history along with Bush, Blair, Bush, Regan and the rest of the lot.
“Bin Laden Intends to Strike in the United States.”
Well, yes, obviously this sentence means that they are going to fly jets into the WTC. How stupid of Bush not to see that!
“[Bush] rushed into a war motivated by lust for oil and economic domination under the pretense of trying to make America safer.”
No bloodfor oil? Pray tell, where is all this oil now? Why are we not taking it from Iraq. Mr. David, you’d better brush up on your liberal talking points — that one was discredited long ago.
“Through lies and deception, [Bush] and his Neocons actually convinced seven out of ten Americans that Iraqis were responsible for flying planes into the WTC.”
How? By never saying anything like what you just claim? Another Peter David lie. We’re used to them by now.
“The argument can be made that the world is, in fact, a MORE dangerous place than it was before.”
The argument can also be made that BUSH SUCKS. But why tell you? Politically, it’s all you know. It’s your only response to any political event. You enjoy seeking out the bad, and attributing it all to Bush. He did invent war and also evil, you know. Good job. Yeah! BUSH SUCKS!
“I take it you got an F in history along with Bush, Blair, Bush, Regan and the rest of the lot.”
Everyone is a moron … but you.
“The stupidity is in your own post, you are blind to the ramifications of the actions of your government. You endorse playing fast and loose and they you cry when it bits you in the butt.”
Gee, reading problems? I have never endorsed playing fast and loose with the truth by our government. Stating that that is my viewpoint just because I don’t think we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 shows some really strange mental processes on your part and a big problem with understanding what you read.
“Dealing in absolutes are we, well sorry the myth of a black and white world is only in the mind of our brain dead president and those who preceeded him.”
Yeah, right. Being snide doesn’t change the fact that we didn’t deserve to be attacked. Under the weak thinking of your argument we can say anybody, including your examples, deseved to die or be attacked for whatever reason we want to come up with. If only those dumb Iraqi peoples had overthrown Saddam long ago we wouldn’t have gone in there after him. If only they would have become a free country sooner….. I guess they asked for it and deserved to die. They could have acted in their own best interests after all and changed their lives for the better. That’s crap. But no more so then your points.
“How about those millions of africans who have died in the name of tribal cleansing while we turn a blind eye? Did they deserve to die? We invade countries in the name of freedom and removal of tyanical despots who haven’t even attained anything close to the millions in Africa, but we just can’t be bother to intervene in Africa.”
Excuse me!?! How stupid are you and how big of an ášš are you trying to really be? We didn’t go into Iraq for freedoms sake. We went in after WMD’s. When that lie couldn’t be kept up it then changed reasons to “freedom.” Have you read any of the other posts on this site? How about just this thread? One of my stated reasons for not liking Bush in other threads has been the deaths his fool’s mission has caused. All deaths. Not just U.S. deaths. I would love to see the bášŧárd impeached for his lies and his crimes. One of my stated reasons in this post is that it was just so much lies and garbage. And since I don’t agree with Bush, or the reasons for war and would like nothing more then for someone to come up with a way to get our guys out without causing anymore damage over there or deaths; what in the blue hëll has my not demanding we go into Africa have to do with anything? How screwed up is your brain?
“Did we deserve it? That is only a question god can answer.”
Oh, so you’re God? After all, it was you who posted first that we deserved it. And you seem so sure that we deserved it in this post as well. Or, is this your back door to run out of on a brain dead concept.
“Gee history is just rife with examples of the exact same thing happening again and again and again and I take it you got an F in history along with Bush, Blair, Bush, Regan and the rest of the lot.”
Sure. I flunked history. Right. And you base this on my saying that the people in the towers, people who had nothing to do with what was done by the people in power here any more then the people of Iraq had to do with what Saddam did in Gulf 1 or in the years after that, didn’t deserve to die and we didn’t deserve to be attacked? Again, your brain must be a strange place to be in, dude.
“We played fast and loose fighting the “evil empire”. We supported despots who did far worse things to their own people than Russia did to their own. We armed religious nutbar zealots and trained them to fight and now we cry when they decide to turn that gun on us. Well what the hëll do you expect”
Did I expect something like that to happen one day for the very reasons you source? Yeah. I expected an animal to act like an animal. But that doesn’t mean that innocents deserved to be killed by that animal. It’s a twisted mind that comes up with logic like that. Yours must be really far gone. But, hey, why stop your “we deserved it” crusade with this though? While your at it, go tell a rape victim that she deserved it. After all, she shouldn’t have been out late/ drinking so much/ dressed like that/ etc. Love to see that. I’ll laugh my tail of as she kicks yours to within an inch of your life.
“Oh wait you don’t care about any human life but your own, those dead Iraqis don’t exist and don’t count”
Oh, yeah. That’s me. Really, have you read any of my posts before deciding you know so much about me? I hate the fact that Bush has caused all those deaths with his lies. As I said, I would love nothing more then to see him inpeached and put on trial for his crimes. Oh, and as I’ve pointed out before and in this thread, and I’m a cop you jáçkášš. My job says that I may have to put others lives over my own to serve the greater good. My job says that my wife may one night not have me come home because protecting others may put me in the kill zone. I train hard to be able to do what needs to be done when it goes down but I’ve lost count over the years of how many times I’ve been “killed” in training. You work to correct any weak points or wrong moves but it always remains in your head that you can die for real just as easy. But I put that uniform on everyday. Oh yeah, I only care about my little life and nobody elses. Sure.
Congrats. You now run neck and neck with X-Ray as the sites biggest dolt and greatest jáçkášš.
hmmm It looks like x-ray stopped putting work into his posts, so I’ll just sum up his next one thus saveing us all some time.
“PAD quote”
your wrong and stupid
“PAD quote”
your stupid and a liar
“PAD quote”
Your wrong, but I won’t bother to support my argument anymore because I’m being lazy.
And finally the mantra of my bizzar rants bush sucks.
I hope I didn’t leave anything out.
Jeff Coney
http://www.hedgehoggames.com
You left out the most important one… BUSH SUCKS!
(Upper case mandatory!)
Brian Peters,
I could dismiss the majority of your posts as a collection of typical knee-jerk “Blame-America-First” liberalism, but this part I just had to respond to
“You had a better chance of surviving under Saddam Hussein than under the ‘freedom’ of U.S. occupation.”
This is what is known as a lie, a fabrication of the truth. I reaLIZE, LIKE MANY of the more outrageous liberal talking points you hav repeated this outright falsehood enough you believe it to be to be true.
But even given accepting some of the more liberal distortions as truth, this one does not even come close to passing the smell test.
Consider: According to most reliable sources, 50,000 Iraqis died from intentional malnutrition every year. The most outrageous claims of civilian deaths in Iraq were 100,000 and quickly debunked as grossly inflated by groups like Human Rights Watch, which puts the figure at a still-tragic 12-20,000. But this correction was largely ignored by the American media, who had been quick to put the “100,000 civilian deaths” line as a headline in most of the papers in the country.
Does the fact that this figure was so greatly exaggerated not bother anyone? Or does it make you feel better portraying Bush and the U.S. as a callous monster?
Now, here’s the best part. Even if the 100,000 figure were true, it would – at best – equal the 100,000 Saddam would have killed in a two year span.
So Bush, even painted with as vile and hateful a brush the Left can muster, still would only equal the horrific reality of the rule of Saddam.
But Saddam is gone, as are his sons. The Iraqi people are adjusting quite quickly to the “freedom” you and many others seem so quick to mock.
But the proof was in the pudding last January, when so many Iraqis voted for the first time. Their lives are better and getting better and will continue to do so, no matter how much you may argue otherwise from the comfort of your keyboard.
I apologize x-ray, I just can’t get as excited as bush seems to make you. When most men get that excited about bush, there is usually a woman involved
Jeff Coney
http://www.hedgehoggames.com
Obviously it means “Take a monthlong vacation after 6½ months on the job.”
…
Hey, you’re a liar.
No selective application of principles going on with you, is there? Jáçkášš.
Why is anyone even talking to this guy? Attention clearly feeds him.. so starve him.
“Will, I want to respect you and the job you do, but your post is disrespectful and arrogant. Just thought you should know.”
So you respect me, but I’m an áššhølë???
Hulk smash Bush!!!
Navy Seals rule! Thanks to Mike for his stupidity. Is your middle name Apples and Oranges
or just pansy ášš.
No matter how our soldiers got there, what they live and die for is the good of the Iraqi people. Girls go to school, rape rooms are closed, families are more secure. The Iraqis are GLAD we are there; they don’t care on what pretext we are there, they are thrilled that we are making a difference.
Ignore the papers and talk to the guys on the ground. They do a hard and ugly job, but their work is for the people and for us regardless of how they were put there.
Tell it to the women and children of Iraq that our soldier’s deaths are senseless. They don’t agree.
“I hope I didn’t leave anything out.”
The ONLY reason I’m mentioning this is because, well, you asked: You left out the apostrophe and the letter “e” that should have been in “your” to make it “you’re.” “Your” is the possessive, as in, “Hey, Peter, where’d that village idiot show up from on your blog?” “You’re” is the proper contraction form of “you are,” which is what you meant to say, as in “You’re the village idiot.”
Otherwise it was all bang on target.
PAD
Anybody else find it odd that, Will USMC drops the USMC, ends on, “Navy Seals rule” (just a wee bit odd for a Marine with the rib poking between the two branches) and posts a rant that reads like X-Ray from start to finish?
But, if that was Will USMC….
Mike, I’m sorry.
You are a better judge of character from first contacts in the blogging game then I am. These aren’t the postings of a soldier who is a wee bit touchy about people ragging on the job adn the mission and taking that, just on face value, as a slap at the service itself. These are the postings of jáçkášš.
Sorry I said you were acting a bit like a dìçk. It turns out that you were just reacting to one.
“Will, I want to respect you and the job you do, but your post is disrespectful and arrogant. Just thought you should know.”
“So you respect me, but I’m an áššhølë???”
No, I didn’t say that. Nor did I think that…before.
PAD
“The Iraqis are GLAD we are there; they don’t care on what pretext we are there, they are thrilled that we are making a difference.”
Yeah, okay, here’s the thing:
There’s lots of people in lots of places who would be thrilled that we were there. If we were out to spend billions upon billions of dollars on something, I’ll wager there’s plenty of starving people in various countries–including, I might add, this one–who would be thrilled if we spent it all on ways of feeding them.
There’s people being systematically exterminated in other countries that we haven’t given the time of day. They’d be thrilled to see us, too, and I’ll bet they wouldn’t even be trying to blow us up with car bombs.
George W. Bush did not say to the people of this country, “Let’s go into Iraq because they’ll be thrilled to see us.” If he had said that, and if 9/11 hadn’t happened, he wouldn’t have gotten billions for his war. He’d have been laughed out of office. Instead he said to the people of this country, “We must go in and get Saddam Hussein because he is an immediate and major threat to the people of the United States.” And the people, still jumpy after 9/11 and convinced by Bush et al that the Iraqis had destroyed the WTC, trusted him.
And he lied. And he betrayed the trust. And if that’s too big a truth to contemplate, then adjust for your comfort level and admit that he was wrong on a monumental scale. If any CEO of a company were that wrong about something on that huge a scale–and it cost 1600 investors their life’s savings (as opposed to 1600 soldiers their lives)–they’d be out the door.
And his followers can try to ignore that by saying after the fact, Oh, but we’re making a difference and spreading democracy and the people are thrilled to see us, but NONE of that changes the fact that we went in there on a foundation of bûllšhìŧ. And you know what? You can take bûllšhìŧ, slap some sealant on it, decorate it with painted flowers and call it a window treatment, but ultimately all you’ve really got is festive bûllšhìŧ.
PAD