OK, this one had *teeth* and I mean that in a good way.
Dang rignt spoilers follow. Not caring.
Nice bits:
* 9/11 having the psychic effect of creating Nightmare’s arch.
* Daydream being Betty’s daughter, presumably while she was comatose after Abomination’s murder attempt.
* The ‘justice’ meted out to Bruce after the bomb incident. I have to admit, I had some sympathy with the principal, and some idea of how young Banner could have alienated everyone so badly.
* A good explanation of how Ross hooked up with ‘milksop’ banner way back when. Also, *Major* Ross put me in mind of Major Tablot.
* A cliffhanger that promises to retunr Betty to Bruce’s life.
* The psychic congruity between Banner and Hulk as adults. They don’t argue or fight, just hand over as needed. I always liked the idea of the Hulk being a Good News/Bad News situation: “Good news, you’re incredibly powerful! Bad news, you have to be the worst so-and-so you can imagine to use it!”
Less effective:
*Nightmare’s boast of “this is how I’ve meddled with your mind!” came across too strongly as a device for dismissing unwanted continuity, esp. since usually such things traditionally get ignored in a sort of “gentlemen’s agreement” among writers and fans.
*I liked Daydream better when she was a human woman keeping up than when she was a supernatural being in her own right. She needed more characterization than just being the villain’s nice daughter.
* Banner’s breaing through the illusion at the asylum was a bit too fast.
*********
I’m looking forward to your future work on Hulk and Spider-Man.
Sadly, I won’t be able to get to my LCBS until the weekend, but I’m really looking foward to this issue!
The 911 bit was pretty corny and made no sense Peter. With all the things that have went down over the years in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is was it takes for the creation of Nightmare Island?
It was almost as bad as Doctor Doom crying at ground zero. I mean…yikes.
Anthony —
Yeah, I didn’t buy Doom’s tears either, but I think what JMS tried to do then, and PAD here, is necessary.
The real world has caught up with all the stuff comic-book villains have pulled and shot right past..
At some level, the change in perspective has to be acknowledged.
No one could take a story based on moon-men seriously since Neil Armstrong and company landed
But the change in perspective “has” been acknowledged in comics Mitch. It’s been acknowledged to death with almost every attempt being worse than the last. But I do see where your coming from.
I always suspected that Doom cried because he was frustrated that he did not think of it first.
I enjoyed the issue. I sure was hoping that the stories in between PAD’s last and current runs had been bad dreams. I have deleted them from my personal continuity!
Well, that blows my whole “Scarlett Witch” theory out of the water.
Really enjoyed how you left things ambiguous. Hulk (and the readers) aren’t quite sure how much has happened to him. Naysayers of Jones’ run can rejoice, but so can the fans. It all depends on your perspective. And I like how Hulk doesn’t care one way or the other. From his perspective, he’s just moving on to the next thing.
I don’t agree with the earlier statement that Bruce figured out Samson’s ruse too quickly. First of all, Bruce is really, really smart. And second, someone’s been messing with his mind for four issues already–of course he’d be on his toes!
And what I liked the most is that this wasn’t really Hulk’s story–he stumbled into someone else’s! Consider me thoroughly (and enjoyably) misled.
Was the 9-11 reference necessary? Probably not. For some people it’s disconcerting to have reality invade their fantasy. I didn’t mind. And the villain’s expository speech was worth it to see Hulk’s reaction, which was, of course, not giving a crap.
I wonder how far Hulk will get before he escapes the island. I’m guessing he won’t be able to take the horse beyond that point. Too bad. And I don’t even want to think about the possibility of him remaining trapped on the island for the duration of Peter’s run! And Betty…
Okay, consider me hooked. Looking forward to the next issue, as well as the next Visionaries collection.
Really liked it Peter! Not a fan of making 9/11 Marvel Canon, but good way of working that into Hulk continuity.
So, that last page, I take it Betty Blue was a nightmare twitch in the fans minds, eh?
I think it was a very ambiguous end to a very confusing story. That said, I loved it. It was great to see the old Hulk back in action, with attitude. There has been so much flak from Bruce Jones run, that PAD’s story definitely allows the reader to just ignore all that stuff as just a bad ‘nightmare.’
As to the 9/11 connetction, I had no problem with it. That one day completely changed the way a world thinks. Who knows what that can do to the fabric of reality?
Cut and pasted from my reviews column this week:
Incredible Hulk #81: Marvel – Tempest Fugit wraps up, probably. This is the sort of story where even when all the cards are laid on the table, you get the distinct impression that you weren’t playing the game you thought you were. And while I didn’t care for the real life link that gave rise to the plot device, at least Peter David was coy enough about details that the story can stand the test of time (pun intended). Recommended. $2.99/$4.25Cn
Incredible Hulk #82: Marvel – Quick followup for this one issue buffer story. Jae Lee’s art is about as murky as usual, and his visual storytelling leaves a lot to be desired. Decent story from Peter David, tho. Recommended despite the art. $2.99/$4.25Cn (Read this one out of the First Looks pile)
I found this issue to be impressive however, these kinds of dream based stories have always gave me headaches. Same thing with Time Travel stories. But well that’s my problem, not yours.
Lessee…you wrapped up all major plot points with a few head-turning surprises while leaving things open for a sequel. Hokey smokes Bullwinkle!! That’s not writing…that’s EXCELLENT writing.
Those are pretty much my confusions…otherwise, great ish.
Loved Fallen Angel.
This, alot less so. Murky. Confusing. And surprisingly boring. Your timing seemed way off this issue. Nightmare has always been, and certainly was this issue, an ineffective villian. He never felt threatening, especially with his tendency to ramble on in extremely tirering villian cliches. The 911 thing, though intriguing, felt like a major throw away.
I was obviously very disappointed. Looks like The Hulk will now be a victim of my recent financial difficulties.
Here’s to hopin’ Fallen Angel returns soon.
Later,
Chip
Very happy with it!! Bill Mantlo did great things with Nightmare and handled correctly he can be a great villain. Mark Waid did a good story in Cap. America a few years back.
Very pleased that PAD is staying at least for a while on Hulk, I hope he feels he can spread his wings a little and not be restricted by the prospect of a short run. Nothing hampers long term plots more than short runs.
Now if we could only get Sal Busema to draw an arc then I would be happy. These legendary Hulk artists won’t be with us forever!
One more point I would like to make is that having extra issues in a month gives us more PAD issues before December (where we hopefully find out he is staying).
Cross over with Spidey??
Ian
Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones. (
The one thing I would have dug to see on “Fantasy Island” beside Tattoo, would have been a Jarella in 70’s stylish clothes. When Betty’s hair turned Green… thats who I thought of at first…before I remembered Jarella’s hair was Yellow.
What I enjoyed most about it is that it opens with the suggestion that we have a situation where it’s suggested that -everything- that has happened since point X was a dream, a plot device that is insulting and annoying. “Oh, you have been consuming this and paying attention? Well, pffffft!” Then it ends with the suggestion that -some- of what you think you know… you don’t. Maybe. Or maybe a lot. Which is, to me, the core of serial writing and reading.
I haven’t read all of the messages, but I have seen little comment on how the flashbacks integrated with the story–is this one story or two? If it is one, then the retelling of Bruce’s school days juxtaposed with Nightmare saying he is messing with Bruce’s mind casts not just the reality of Bruce Jones’s Hulk stories in doubt, but the reality of the whole flashback in doubt. Maybe the tales of young Bruce are just an invention of Nightmare. If so, why?
I’m still trying to decide if I like the story or not. The portrayal of the Hulk was great, and there were a ton of great moments in the story. The Nightmare/Nightmare’s daughter/Betty/Nightmare Island elements, well, if given a chance to develop, they could all be cool, but if left dangling will end up dissapointing.
The September 11 references didn’t really work for me. The Marvel Universe is so different than ours, how September 11 fits there is odd. I’m sure Peter is trying to make various points, about how it was like something out of a movie. Perhaps Nightmare’s comment about working into people’s minds and messing with their views of reality is some sort of an explanation of how people could vote for Bush, how they continue to give credence to his claims of WMD when there weren’t any.
I guess to me the story centered heavily around the villain’s exposition at the end, which is not my favorite plot device. “Ah Hulk, now let me explain everything to you (and the readers)….” Since Hulk is not exactly one to indulge in debate, and simply ripped his head off, well, it broke the cliche. Sometimes breaking a cliche can be cool, and sometimes it just leaves you with unsatisfying little shards of cliche all over your floor.
In short, how much I like this story depends a lot on how the elements it introduced get developed. A Daydream limited series could be cool, too.
You know…sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.
I wrote the sequence–including Nightmare’s speech–because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.
PAD
Good stuff, Maynard.
Mindf*ck stories make my brain hurt almost as much as time-travel stories, but Nightmare’s a great villain if used right, and I thought you put him to good use here.
I’ve got no problem with making 9-11 “canon” in the Marvel Universe. I mean, New York has always been so much a part of the MU that I half-expected to see the Baxter Building the first time I went there — so acknowledging Ground Zero and 9-11 doesn’t seem all that big a stretch.
I enjoyed Bruce Jones’s run on the book, but I’ve had more fun in the last 4 issues of the Hulk than I had in the last 4 years (I mean, how can you NOT love a book where Hulk goes toe-to-nose with Fin Fang Foom?)
Keep it coming.
Well, I loved the issue! Don’t let the naysayers get you down, you can’t please everyone all the time. I half-heartedly expected Nightmare to pull of his mask and reveal himself as Bruce Jones.. “And I would’ve gotten away with it too if weren’t for you meddling kids!” hehe…
“It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.”
I disagree with THIS statement, since I think that the reasons for the country’s actions have been fairly static (and wholly justifiable). However, as neither of us are ever going to change the other’s mind, I’ll leave it at that.
I really enjoyed the 9/11 tie-in, Peter, because I remember sitting on the arm of an elderly downstairs neighbor’s couch (she’d grabbed me as I was heading into the building, tears in her eyes, asking if I’d seen what was going on), thinking exactly what you said: “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.” I was still sitting there when the first tower fell, repeating to myself, over and over, that it was time to wake up.
The idea that a nation full of people thinking the same thing could have an effect on reality, especially in a world like the Marvel-verse, is a very interesting one.
While I was okay with the 9/11 comment, I think you are giving short shrift to the readers who commented on having some trouble with it -in the context of the Marvel universe-. Given the fact that it makes no explicit reference to 9/11 I read it in a metaphoric sense as refering to a world-trauma in the MU that may or may not be 9/11.
BUT I think it’s perfectly reasonable for someone else to say they read it and though “9/11” and then immediately though about what 9/11 would have been in the MU. And it’s completely reasonable to think that it would have been very different. They have giant world-eating people, Genosha, gamma bombs, pretty regular damage to the cities that probably rivals the towers, etc. They also have a ton of people in spandex who would be asked “hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?”
Vaughn treats this very well over in Ex Machina where a supertype responded to the first unforseeable plane and was there for the second. JMS did a good story in Spider-Man but it begged the question why anyone would have fallen to their death when you have hundreds of spandex flyers and stretching/invisible/firey people with flying cars in the area to pick them up.
While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.
And for the thousandth time, can someone just turn off the gøddámņëd ‘preview’ button if all it’s going to do is empty my name & email address boxes and never actually preview a dámņëd thing?
PAD,
You never fail to impress…
I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer’s run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore’s “This is an imaginary story… but aren’t they all.”
I thought Nightmare’s revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I’ve never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you’ve managed to change that for now.
PAD,
You never fail to impress…
I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer’s run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore’s “This is an imaginary story… but aren’t they all.”
I thought Nightmare’s revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I’ve never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you’ve managed to change that for now.
“While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.”
Why?
See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.
I can’t count the number of times that fans have read this, that or the other by various writers and talked about being “let down,” about being disappointed or–best of all–claiming that the writer wasn’t even trying or “clearly” didn’t care about the story he was producing, as if they have a little window set up inside the writer’s mind.
So if fans are able to say, with impunity, that they are disappointed in a writer or his efforts to produce a certain work, then I think it’s perfectly justified–and not at all misguided–for a writer to say that he’s disappointed in some fans or their efforts to comment upon said work.
PAD
Didn’t like it. Not a big nightmare fan.
Though the whole Banner in highschool thing would lead to somthing a little bigger than explaining how he met up with Ross.
Unsatisfied with the ending. Betty’s trapped on the nightmare island, and the Hulk doesn’t even know about it. I guess we just dropped the whole “she hates him and has super powers” thing…
I loved the story. I loved the idea of Bruce being given the choice to determine what events have or have not actually taken place. I was immediately reminded of the argument that constantly pervades the ‘net focusing on the idea that fans do the same in regard to stories, writers, etc that they don’t like…. let it go. This seemed to be a creative revisiting and twist on that discussion.
I also found the facts behind Nightmare’s corporal emergence and power boost in the Marvel Universe to be particularly powerful in contemplating them as I read and in reflectiong about it since. Thanks for the energy that you put into this story and your return to the title.
Fred
Hmmm. Last night I dreamed that I read an issue of THE INCREDIBLE HULK. What a Nightmare! 🙂
Peter, you did a great job of leaving it open to fans on how to interpret the years since your departure from the book. Dream, nightmare, continuity, non-continuity.
As for the comments from the readers criticizing the use of Nightmare in response to 9/11, I think it is correct. Clearly, Nightmare is the perfect description of the past four years.
Peter,
I’m cool if you want to blame me for not getting what you were attempting. I don’t agree, but I’m fine with your perspective.
I think I clearly stated my issues with the, ah issue in question. Nightmare has always been a lame character to me. EVERYONE ALWAYS figures out that they are being manipulated, therefore completely defanging any of his hoodoo. His speech was so condescending and trite… granted, that’s the norm for such a blowhard, but I look for something original from you, and this was the same old boring Nightmare, explaining to us stupid readers everything like we’re children, and becoming powerless once he’s found out.
I have no qualms regarding including “real world” events into the story, and, frankly, find those that do a tad too geeky to take seriously. I was shocked to silence for days after 911 happened, but my reaction was not the one you describe, hence I can’t identify with your angle. I, personally, was driven to action by 911, not denial. That is not to say that everyone else reacted as you described, just that I simply cannot identify.
Plus, since Nightmare has always been such an ineffective villian to me, his encroachment into our “reality” is slightly less scarey than the thought of my mother-in-law moving in with me. I exaggerate to make my point.
I also felt the story was all over the place, switching from flashback (?) to nightmare to reality (?) too frequently to invest in any particular scene (though the Principal locking Bruce in the basement moved me). It just didn’t feel cohesive.
And the imperilled-Betty-with-an-unaware Bruce/Hulk-thing is just… tired.
I also could not latch onto any of the characters because I wasn’t sure what was real and what was not. I don’t care about imaginary characters. You gave me nothing to indicate that Nightmare wasn’t full of crap, and all of this was in the Hulk’s head. I have only Nightmare’s word that he’s encrouched on our plane, and he’s a lying, full-of-feces villian. Why should I care about Bruce’s past, or Betty’s peril if none of it seems real?
It seems that I’m part of a minority as it is, so I’m confused by your reaction. Calling me a dunce (or aluding to that accessment) seems like a weak argument. I didn’t say YOU sucked. I simply stated that this issue failed to work for me. If I remember, I also stated how much I loved Fallen Angel, a work of far deeper characters and situations. I see both the forest and the trees. I just don’t see them as you do in this instance.
Still, I thoroughly enjoy the discussion.
Later,
Chip
(Raises hand)
Sure, it was impressive, but no more traumatic than any other disaster that doesn’t directly involve me or people I care about. And it was followed by so much hand-wringing and saber-rattling that what sympathy I may have had got rapidly turned into mild annoyance.
I had no nightmares, felt no overwhelming grief or despair. I was a bit shocked that the buildings collapsed, because I hadn’t thought about the fire angle (a bomber hit the Empire State Building during WWII and the building was mostly fine, but the bomber didn’t have thousands of gallons of fuel).
Disasters claim lives all the time. Sorry to sound callous, but trying to empathize with them all would drive anyone mad. And the Twin Towers just weren’t close enough to me to get past that sanity-protecting barrier.
—Dave
Your story is set in the Marvel Universe Peter. You are aksing us to beleive that 911 gave Nightmare the power for Nightmare Island. So your asking us to beleive that in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is what did the trick for Nightmare. I understand you were trying for resonance, but that isn’t a magic sheild from the people who justifyably have a problem with the story.
And who said they were disappointed in you? It just sounds like your trying to protect yourself from your earlier comments about how the fans can sometimes disappoint you. And isn’t it just a little two faced of you talk about how fans thrive off of contact with the writer but balk at the notion of a level playing field, but when someone comes in with a valid point against your story you get disappointed in those fans? If you were looking for praise just ask “did I rock that issue or did I ROCK that issue?” instead of “whad’ja think”
Before I read other comments, I will post my immediate reaction: shock and awe. (I mean that in a good way.) Based on past books and comics, I did have confidence that the series would not just fizzle. But you far exceeded yourself this time. You have a rare talent to craft a story. I may not like all of them, but I absolutely respect your ability as a writer. The “secret” of the island evoked some very painful memories. In a few sentences, you captured a moment in time as few have the ability to do. Thanks.
Iowa Jim
Another hand up here.
My thought was “Gee, I’d hoped they would hold off on World War Three until after I was safely dead.”
Ok, I have read the comments and am somewhat taken aback. I can understand (somewhat) the confusion some might feel when you mix reality (9/11) with fiction (Marvel Universe). But I don’t understand how some do not see this as a PAD described it — a moment when the world stood in shock and horror. This was not the worse disaster in history. I realize seeing it on live TV and then replayed over and over caused it to burned into our minds. But this was not a “natural” disaster (like an earthquake or Tsunami). This was an act of hatred by some evil, cowardly men. This should not have happened.
I have my differences with PAD on how we should respond to this event. That is to be expected when an event is so traumatic. But to say it was not that big of a deal and just another disaster is beyond my ability to comprehend. I am not being critical of those who think differently, I am just saying I just plain can’t comprehend it.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
I may disagree with PAD’s politics, but he has a sharp mind. His comment nailed it. Something did change (for good or bad is up to you to decide) on 9/11.
Iowa Jim
eh, was hoping with PAD we’d get away from the mind games a bit, not looking forward to Jae Lee’s art or the “House of Bendizzzz” tie in.
Man, that last page was so Twilight Zone-y, I was half expecting a question mark on the “END” caption. I mean that in a good way.
Anyway, I’m gonna take a different route instead of the main topic, and just mention how much I loved the flashback sequences throughout the storyline. They really gave alot of insight into the character, (and had an awesome Fight Club moment, which I dug) while the primary plot was more of a mystery and Fing-Fang-Foom smashie-smashie. Nice balance of the two.
Still, someone clue me in on what this storyline had to do with the “main” plot. I liked it alot, maybe even more than the A plot, but is there some subtext in there connecting the two that I’m missing out on? Young Bruce’s nightmare comming to life with “Hulk” planting a bomb? The evil government whisking him away for thier own nefarious a-doings? What?
C’mon, someone, throw me a frickin’ bone here. I’m too stupid to pick it up.
PAD,
I LOVED the story. It made me remember why I love your writing is IMHO the first GREAT Hulk story you’ve done since you got back (and I’m a harsh judge_
And you are correct. Some, can’t see the forest for the trees.
I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. True, as time goes by, some twists and turns would have to be made to explain why all the super-heroes didn’t just go over to Afghanistan on 9/12 and tear every possible hiding place apart. (Or is it? Both the DC and Marvel universes are so filled to the brim with mutants and metas, it can easily be assumed enough would be in the Islamic world to make the spandex crowd think twice about such a move and how it would effect innocents in the area.) Kind of what Roy Thomas had to do in ALL-STAR SQUADRON to explain why just Superman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, and Spectre by themselves didn’t sink Japan the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed.
My only problem is that, knowing history like I do, there would’ve been other instances over the ages where Nightmare could’ve also established a real-world base. But then, Nightmare could be lying, or previous bases have somehow been eliminated, and the 9/11 base is the newest.
First of all, I’m glad the HULK is actually appearing in his comic again and actually has a personality. I’ve always liked you’ve written all the different versions of the big green guy.
But As of right now I’m not really crazy about this story. I hope this comes to an actual conclusion down the road, since i didn’t think this issue was much of one.
I hope we’re actually told what is real and what was a dream. I don’t like the idea of wondering “Is the hulk dreaming this or is this real?” every time i read a hulk comic from now on.
I was a bit dissappointed at the dismisal of the “Devil Hulk”.
Overall, I think Jenkins was pretty reverential to the multiple personality angle and the Devil Hulk would seem to have the potential for a great Hulk epic.
I’m happy to have you back Peter, but this issue leaves me wondering…what’s next?!?!? It looks like a fill-in issue next month & then the agonizing wait through a House of M crossover (at least we get Jorge Lucas, who drew the BEST Iron Man in years!!!!) I just want a little hint of what’s to come! Are you staying on board? Will Lee Weeks & Tom Palmer return? Are we going to get a story arc that focuses on Hulk’s interaction with his supporting cast, such as Betty, Samson, Ross, Rick, etc… Basically are we going to get back on track & get a direction going here again? The team that produced Tempus Fugit brought us the best Hulk in years, certainly the best art since the Sal Buscema days! Will you all return? Please!!!! If not, are the 2 artists hinted at on the letter’s page a real possibility?
Al
PS: I agree with a previous writer that it’d be nice to see Sal Buscema brought back for a story arc on HIS character before he gets too old! An even better idea would be to have Ernie Chan or Joe Rubinstein ink him!
We were unhappy when PAD left Hulk, now when hes back people still moan about what he’s written.
WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PLEASE YOU LOT!!!
PADs’ back lets enjoy it while it lasts.
Ian
PS. Things can be scrutinised a bit too much so that it spoils the enjoyment of it, lighten up.
I haven’t read hulk regularly in a long time, so I suppose I was a little thrown off by some of the back history I missed. What exactly happened to betty being in a coma/abomination, etc?
General comment since I haven’t read the book:
“I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. “
The MU was removed from the real world a long time ago. Two buildings falling happens with stunning regularity in the MU and DCU. Cities are destroyed, aliens wipe out whole blocks, creatures from the deep flood New York. I always wondered what kind of people could populate a world where this happens so regularly and not be in constant walking shock or cringing terror?
Again, I’m making no comment on Peter’s story, but the lack of impact on MU “regular people” from all the constant death and destruction has effectively removed MU from reality, and doesn’t really address the issue realistically at all (as opposed to the events that took place in Miracle Man – that’s what a superbeing WOULD do to the world).
That’s been a stick in my craw for awhile; this just provided a forum for it. Ignore and carry on, I feel better…
“Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones.”
You guessed right as well? I remember guessing that the antagonist-‘daughter’ pair were either Dormammu-Clea (due to the Mindless Ones), The Shaper and herald replacing Glorian (the reality-warping) or Nightmare and Dreamqueen (the modus operandi). I almost nailed it with the last one at least. It was fun with all the thought-through false leads and possibilities of the story. 🙂
A question for Peter: Is it possible that we could receive a list of which stories are still in continuity from the incoherent, in-between travesties of the runs when you were away? The Absorbing Man as a serial-killing parasite, the Devil-Hulk, the Abomination’s petite ballerina wife as a hardcore spy and the unexplained ressurrections, mutations and deaths of the Leader should be out I guess, but which appearances are still legit? Just the ones outside his own book? Really the continuity of the Hulk had turned into a completely illogical mess, so I’m glad you’ve tried to straighten it out.
Also, I baguely remember a story forced on you from above where Nightmare and D’Spayre took Betty’s child. Was this Daydream or was the child conceived during Betty’s coma? Heck is Betty alive or dead now that the entire ‘Mr’ Blue idiocy of ‘Betty goes She-Hulk and gets cancer’ is taken away? The last scene was very confusing in this regard. Was that really Ross or another aspect of Nightmare impersonating him again? Hmm…
Also, is there any chance we could _please_ get a follow-up on whatever happened to the Maestro after last seen buried below a few tons of rock? Did he or didn’t he plan out the entire ‘poison Betty’-plot for the Abomination? I really, really hope you stay on the book for several years more. I love what you’re doing with it. 🙂
Just read the comic and then read the comments here. I was one of those that did not immediately get the 911 connection. Rereading it I see the reference, but not being american it didn’t have quite the same impact (if you’ll excuse the expression).
I recall watching it live on TV and the experience was very dreamlike, but at no point did I think “let it all not be real” – it was happening and I was watching it. In the context of the Marvel Universe it is completely incongrous. As with many real world events it just doesn’t work as such a big deal because so many other events have occured that should have had the same or worse effects, but because they aren’t written with any focus on the victims we don’t see any trauma caused.
In Marvel world knocking down a couple of big buildings in New York is an everyday occurance. That’s not to say we should be blase about 911, it’s saying that perhaps we should be seeing a little more cause and affect among ordinary everyday type people when the Baxter Building is destroyed or Galactus lands or fimbulwinter begins or any of the other disasters of catastrophic nature occur.
But back to the comic in progress, after loving preceeding issues I found the ending a bit week. Daydream was set up nicely but once revealed never really did anything and I was left feeling that this was some kind of prologue to her true story. The whole Nightmare twist was not really foreshadowed enough for me. Perhaps I missed an earlier hint, but using Mindless Ones was a complete red herring, and dismissing them as having been borrowed from a nearby dimension felt like a bit of a cheat.
All in all I felt it was too much like one of those mystery stories that you can’t solve because there are important pieces of the puzzle that aren’t revealed to you until the denoument. I’ve enjoyed the whole story a lot, but I definitely found this the weakest part of it.
I’m also interested in seeing what will be made of the unconnected sub-story, with the Hulk-personality as a would-be serial killing bomber and the new aunt. How exactly does she tie into the Bruce Banner-Jennifer, Elain & Morris Walters family? Elain and the new aunt were sibling of Bruce’s mother Rebecca right? Not of his psychotic stalker-ghost father? It’d be nice to see some brother-sister relationship between Jennifers&Bruce in any case. They each have one of the best quality books in the Marvel stock, so crossovers would be fun. 🙂
Peter,
Two points:
1. As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.
2. To be honest, I’ve found that people outside of New York city feel very differently about September 11 than people who live in the city. New Yorkers were hit harder, in a much more personal way than other Americans.
For most Americans, New York city is a far off, almost mythical place, that they only see about on TV and in movies, and the media is obsessed with. Most TV shows and many movies happen there, and the place is almost not even real. Often, NYC is almost a symbol of what they dislike about big cities, a place they will never go to and never want to go to.
I was teaching at Cornell in upstate NY then, and I quickly saw how differently 9/11 was hitting my students from New York city compared to those of other places. Most of us faculty spent our class periods trying to help and console our traumatized students from NYC.
I talked to colleagues in many other parts of the country, and in much of the country, universities conducted classes as normal on 9/11. Some commented on how untroubled their students seemed. Those students were not thinking “Oh, let this be a nightmare.” They were going about their lives as usual, Peter.
Events since then, such as the wars and election, also play out differently. For most Amerians, they have ended up being just more stuff they see on TV. All of the restrictions of people’s rights, air travel, etc., well, a big segment of the population hasn’t really been touched by that, either. “If you don’t fly, and if you don’t have anything to hide, what’s been the harm?” might summarize their thinking on those issues. As far as the wars go, I’ve heard people in rural America declare “It’s about time we got up off our áššëš and did something over there. W will teach them a lesson!” These people do not see themselves living in a nightmare. To them, Sepemter 11 was a wake up call, a message that our country needed to get to work. Many Bush voters are happy with how things are going.
I think how your story works for readers depends a whole lot on how all of the events on 9/11 and afterwards have affected them, and how closely their views and experiences match yours.
(I am greatly troubled by the events of 9/11, and I’ve been more troubled as our nation, having seen the effects of religious extremism and intolerance and hate writ large upon NYC, seems to have somehow missed that lesson entirely….)
Anyway, I look forward to more stories.
“It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.”
That’s the reason most of us europeans just stand by the side disbelievingwhen so many different reasons and smear-campaigns are used to justify the war. Most of us would likely be all for toppling dictatures if the humanitarian aspect and the hundreds of thousands of people dying in starvation from UN sanction had been brought up from the start. Instead we get allusions to a secularist Baath party-Fundamentalist Al Quaida connection, WMD’s regardless what the incorruptible Hans Blix has found out and _then_ the humanitarian aspect while cynically hurrying up the time of the invasion to fit the election period instead of thoroughly planning it out to avoid casualties (with an august death toll of 100,000 because of this). I mean can you blame people for seriously doubting the intentions of someone that shifty and justifying. This kind of serious matter takes trust and honesty to pull through.
“And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.””
Don’t feel too let down about that. I really liked the poetic resonance, even if I’ve personally seen extensive reports of horrors far far more shocking than 9/11. The recent tsunami among them. We’re still readers though. The fun parts of having you back on the book and doing some great things with it are bound to be a bit more exciting at the moment. We’re still caught up in that you’re _back_. 🙂
• 
OK, this one had *teeth* and I mean that in a good way.
Dang rignt spoilers follow. Not caring.
Nice bits:
* 9/11 having the psychic effect of creating Nightmare’s arch.
* Daydream being Betty’s daughter, presumably while she was comatose after Abomination’s murder attempt.
* The ‘justice’ meted out to Bruce after the bomb incident. I have to admit, I had some sympathy with the principal, and some idea of how young Banner could have alienated everyone so badly.
* A good explanation of how Ross hooked up with ‘milksop’ banner way back when. Also, *Major* Ross put me in mind of Major Tablot.
* A cliffhanger that promises to retunr Betty to Bruce’s life.
* The psychic congruity between Banner and Hulk as adults. They don’t argue or fight, just hand over as needed. I always liked the idea of the Hulk being a Good News/Bad News situation: “Good news, you’re incredibly powerful! Bad news, you have to be the worst so-and-so you can imagine to use it!”
Less effective:
*Nightmare’s boast of “this is how I’ve meddled with your mind!” came across too strongly as a device for dismissing unwanted continuity, esp. since usually such things traditionally get ignored in a sort of “gentlemen’s agreement” among writers and fans.
*I liked Daydream better when she was a human woman keeping up than when she was a supernatural being in her own right. She needed more characterization than just being the villain’s nice daughter.
* Banner’s breaing through the illusion at the asylum was a bit too fast.
*********
I’m looking forward to your future work on Hulk and Spider-Man.
Sadly, I won’t be able to get to my LCBS until the weekend, but I’m really looking foward to this issue!
The 911 bit was pretty corny and made no sense Peter. With all the things that have went down over the years in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is was it takes for the creation of Nightmare Island?
It was almost as bad as Doctor Doom crying at ground zero. I mean…yikes.
Anthony —
Yeah, I didn’t buy Doom’s tears either, but I think what JMS tried to do then, and PAD here, is necessary.
The real world has caught up with all the stuff comic-book villains have pulled and shot right past..
At some level, the change in perspective has to be acknowledged.
No one could take a story based on moon-men seriously since Neil Armstrong and company landed
But the change in perspective “has” been acknowledged in comics Mitch. It’s been acknowledged to death with almost every attempt being worse than the last. But I do see where your coming from.
I always suspected that Doom cried because he was frustrated that he did not think of it first.
I enjoyed the issue. I sure was hoping that the stories in between PAD’s last and current runs had been bad dreams. I have deleted them from my personal continuity!
Well, that blows my whole “Scarlett Witch” theory out of the water.
Really enjoyed how you left things ambiguous. Hulk (and the readers) aren’t quite sure how much has happened to him. Naysayers of Jones’ run can rejoice, but so can the fans. It all depends on your perspective. And I like how Hulk doesn’t care one way or the other. From his perspective, he’s just moving on to the next thing.
I don’t agree with the earlier statement that Bruce figured out Samson’s ruse too quickly. First of all, Bruce is really, really smart. And second, someone’s been messing with his mind for four issues already–of course he’d be on his toes!
And what I liked the most is that this wasn’t really Hulk’s story–he stumbled into someone else’s! Consider me thoroughly (and enjoyably) misled.
Was the 9-11 reference necessary? Probably not. For some people it’s disconcerting to have reality invade their fantasy. I didn’t mind. And the villain’s expository speech was worth it to see Hulk’s reaction, which was, of course, not giving a crap.
I wonder how far Hulk will get before he escapes the island. I’m guessing he won’t be able to take the horse beyond that point. Too bad. And I don’t even want to think about the possibility of him remaining trapped on the island for the duration of Peter’s run! And Betty…
Okay, consider me hooked. Looking forward to the next issue, as well as the next Visionaries collection.
Really liked it Peter! Not a fan of making 9/11 Marvel Canon, but good way of working that into Hulk continuity.
So, that last page, I take it Betty Blue was a nightmare twitch in the fans minds, eh?
I think it was a very ambiguous end to a very confusing story. That said, I loved it. It was great to see the old Hulk back in action, with attitude. There has been so much flak from Bruce Jones run, that PAD’s story definitely allows the reader to just ignore all that stuff as just a bad ‘nightmare.’
As to the 9/11 connetction, I had no problem with it. That one day completely changed the way a world thinks. Who knows what that can do to the fabric of reality?
Cut and pasted from my reviews column this week:
Incredible Hulk #81: Marvel – Tempest Fugit wraps up, probably. This is the sort of story where even when all the cards are laid on the table, you get the distinct impression that you weren’t playing the game you thought you were. And while I didn’t care for the real life link that gave rise to the plot device, at least Peter David was coy enough about details that the story can stand the test of time (pun intended). Recommended. $2.99/$4.25Cn
Incredible Hulk #82: Marvel – Quick followup for this one issue buffer story. Jae Lee’s art is about as murky as usual, and his visual storytelling leaves a lot to be desired. Decent story from Peter David, tho. Recommended despite the art. $2.99/$4.25Cn (Read this one out of the First Looks pile)
I found this issue to be impressive however, these kinds of dream based stories have always gave me headaches. Same thing with Time Travel stories. But well that’s my problem, not yours.
Lessee…you wrapped up all major plot points with a few head-turning surprises while leaving things open for a sequel. Hokey smokes Bullwinkle!! That’s not writing…that’s EXCELLENT writing.
Kinda confused about it.
http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?rpl=050525214050
Those are pretty much my confusions…otherwise, great ish.
Loved Fallen Angel.
This, alot less so. Murky. Confusing. And surprisingly boring. Your timing seemed way off this issue. Nightmare has always been, and certainly was this issue, an ineffective villian. He never felt threatening, especially with his tendency to ramble on in extremely tirering villian cliches. The 911 thing, though intriguing, felt like a major throw away.
I was obviously very disappointed. Looks like The Hulk will now be a victim of my recent financial difficulties.
Here’s to hopin’ Fallen Angel returns soon.
Later,
Chip
Very happy with it!! Bill Mantlo did great things with Nightmare and handled correctly he can be a great villain. Mark Waid did a good story in Cap. America a few years back.
Very pleased that PAD is staying at least for a while on Hulk, I hope he feels he can spread his wings a little and not be restricted by the prospect of a short run. Nothing hampers long term plots more than short runs.
Now if we could only get Sal Busema to draw an arc then I would be happy. These legendary Hulk artists won’t be with us forever!
One more point I would like to make is that having extra issues in a month gives us more PAD issues before December (where we hopefully find out he is staying).
Cross over with Spidey??
Ian
Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones. (
The one thing I would have dug to see on “Fantasy Island” beside Tattoo, would have been a Jarella in 70’s stylish clothes. When Betty’s hair turned Green… thats who I thought of at first…before I remembered Jarella’s hair was Yellow.
What I enjoyed most about it is that it opens with the suggestion that we have a situation where it’s suggested that -everything- that has happened since point X was a dream, a plot device that is insulting and annoying. “Oh, you have been consuming this and paying attention? Well, pffffft!” Then it ends with the suggestion that -some- of what you think you know… you don’t. Maybe. Or maybe a lot. Which is, to me, the core of serial writing and reading.
I haven’t read all of the messages, but I have seen little comment on how the flashbacks integrated with the story–is this one story or two? If it is one, then the retelling of Bruce’s school days juxtaposed with Nightmare saying he is messing with Bruce’s mind casts not just the reality of Bruce Jones’s Hulk stories in doubt, but the reality of the whole flashback in doubt. Maybe the tales of young Bruce are just an invention of Nightmare. If so, why?
I’m still trying to decide if I like the story or not. The portrayal of the Hulk was great, and there were a ton of great moments in the story. The Nightmare/Nightmare’s daughter/Betty/Nightmare Island elements, well, if given a chance to develop, they could all be cool, but if left dangling will end up dissapointing.
The September 11 references didn’t really work for me. The Marvel Universe is so different than ours, how September 11 fits there is odd. I’m sure Peter is trying to make various points, about how it was like something out of a movie. Perhaps Nightmare’s comment about working into people’s minds and messing with their views of reality is some sort of an explanation of how people could vote for Bush, how they continue to give credence to his claims of WMD when there weren’t any.
I guess to me the story centered heavily around the villain’s exposition at the end, which is not my favorite plot device. “Ah Hulk, now let me explain everything to you (and the readers)….” Since Hulk is not exactly one to indulge in debate, and simply ripped his head off, well, it broke the cliche. Sometimes breaking a cliche can be cool, and sometimes it just leaves you with unsatisfying little shards of cliche all over your floor.
In short, how much I like this story depends a lot on how the elements it introduced get developed. A Daydream limited series could be cool, too.
You know…sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.
I wrote the sequence–including Nightmare’s speech–because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.
PAD
Good stuff, Maynard.
Mindf*ck stories make my brain hurt almost as much as time-travel stories, but Nightmare’s a great villain if used right, and I thought you put him to good use here.
I’ve got no problem with making 9-11 “canon” in the Marvel Universe. I mean, New York has always been so much a part of the MU that I half-expected to see the Baxter Building the first time I went there — so acknowledging Ground Zero and 9-11 doesn’t seem all that big a stretch.
I enjoyed Bruce Jones’s run on the book, but I’ve had more fun in the last 4 issues of the Hulk than I had in the last 4 years (I mean, how can you NOT love a book where Hulk goes toe-to-nose with Fin Fang Foom?)
Keep it coming.
Well, I loved the issue! Don’t let the naysayers get you down, you can’t please everyone all the time. I half-heartedly expected Nightmare to pull of his mask and reveal himself as Bruce Jones.. “And I would’ve gotten away with it too if weren’t for you meddling kids!” hehe…
“It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.”
I disagree with THIS statement, since I think that the reasons for the country’s actions have been fairly static (and wholly justifiable). However, as neither of us are ever going to change the other’s mind, I’ll leave it at that.
I really enjoyed the 9/11 tie-in, Peter, because I remember sitting on the arm of an elderly downstairs neighbor’s couch (she’d grabbed me as I was heading into the building, tears in her eyes, asking if I’d seen what was going on), thinking exactly what you said: “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.” I was still sitting there when the first tower fell, repeating to myself, over and over, that it was time to wake up.
The idea that a nation full of people thinking the same thing could have an effect on reality, especially in a world like the Marvel-verse, is a very interesting one.
While I was okay with the 9/11 comment, I think you are giving short shrift to the readers who commented on having some trouble with it -in the context of the Marvel universe-. Given the fact that it makes no explicit reference to 9/11 I read it in a metaphoric sense as refering to a world-trauma in the MU that may or may not be 9/11.
BUT I think it’s perfectly reasonable for someone else to say they read it and though “9/11” and then immediately though about what 9/11 would have been in the MU. And it’s completely reasonable to think that it would have been very different. They have giant world-eating people, Genosha, gamma bombs, pretty regular damage to the cities that probably rivals the towers, etc. They also have a ton of people in spandex who would be asked “hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?”
Vaughn treats this very well over in Ex Machina where a supertype responded to the first unforseeable plane and was there for the second. JMS did a good story in Spider-Man but it begged the question why anyone would have fallen to their death when you have hundreds of spandex flyers and stretching/invisible/firey people with flying cars in the area to pick them up.
While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.
And for the thousandth time, can someone just turn off the gøddámņëd ‘preview’ button if all it’s going to do is empty my name & email address boxes and never actually preview a dámņëd thing?
PAD,
You never fail to impress…
I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer’s run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore’s “This is an imaginary story… but aren’t they all.”
I thought Nightmare’s revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I’ve never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you’ve managed to change that for now.
PAD,
You never fail to impress…
I thought your returning storyline provided a respectful transition. You left it open to the reader by neither negating or affirming the previous writer’s run. It brought to mind the old line of Alan Moore’s “This is an imaginary story… but aren’t they all.”
I thought Nightmare’s revelation of how he was able to establish the island was one of the most original incorporations of a real-world event in comics. It also had a resonance that made me put the book down and take a breath. I’ve never thought that Nightmare was a very original or compelling villain, but you’ve managed to change that for now.
“While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.”
Why?
See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.
I can’t count the number of times that fans have read this, that or the other by various writers and talked about being “let down,” about being disappointed or–best of all–claiming that the writer wasn’t even trying or “clearly” didn’t care about the story he was producing, as if they have a little window set up inside the writer’s mind.
So if fans are able to say, with impunity, that they are disappointed in a writer or his efforts to produce a certain work, then I think it’s perfectly justified–and not at all misguided–for a writer to say that he’s disappointed in some fans or their efforts to comment upon said work.
PAD
Didn’t like it. Not a big nightmare fan.
Though the whole Banner in highschool thing would lead to somthing a little bigger than explaining how he met up with Ross.
Unsatisfied with the ending. Betty’s trapped on the nightmare island, and the Hulk doesn’t even know about it. I guess we just dropped the whole “she hates him and has super powers” thing…
I loved the story. I loved the idea of Bruce being given the choice to determine what events have or have not actually taken place. I was immediately reminded of the argument that constantly pervades the ‘net focusing on the idea that fans do the same in regard to stories, writers, etc that they don’t like…. let it go. This seemed to be a creative revisiting and twist on that discussion.
I also found the facts behind Nightmare’s corporal emergence and power boost in the Marvel Universe to be particularly powerful in contemplating them as I read and in reflectiong about it since. Thanks for the energy that you put into this story and your return to the title.
Fred
Hmmm. Last night I dreamed that I read an issue of THE INCREDIBLE HULK. What a Nightmare! 🙂
Peter, you did a great job of leaving it open to fans on how to interpret the years since your departure from the book. Dream, nightmare, continuity, non-continuity.
As for the comments from the readers criticizing the use of Nightmare in response to 9/11, I think it is correct. Clearly, Nightmare is the perfect description of the past four years.
Peter,
I’m cool if you want to blame me for not getting what you were attempting. I don’t agree, but I’m fine with your perspective.
I think I clearly stated my issues with the, ah issue in question. Nightmare has always been a lame character to me. EVERYONE ALWAYS figures out that they are being manipulated, therefore completely defanging any of his hoodoo. His speech was so condescending and trite… granted, that’s the norm for such a blowhard, but I look for something original from you, and this was the same old boring Nightmare, explaining to us stupid readers everything like we’re children, and becoming powerless once he’s found out.
I have no qualms regarding including “real world” events into the story, and, frankly, find those that do a tad too geeky to take seriously. I was shocked to silence for days after 911 happened, but my reaction was not the one you describe, hence I can’t identify with your angle. I, personally, was driven to action by 911, not denial. That is not to say that everyone else reacted as you described, just that I simply cannot identify.
Plus, since Nightmare has always been such an ineffective villian to me, his encroachment into our “reality” is slightly less scarey than the thought of my mother-in-law moving in with me. I exaggerate to make my point.
I also felt the story was all over the place, switching from flashback (?) to nightmare to reality (?) too frequently to invest in any particular scene (though the Principal locking Bruce in the basement moved me). It just didn’t feel cohesive.
And the imperilled-Betty-with-an-unaware Bruce/Hulk-thing is just… tired.
I also could not latch onto any of the characters because I wasn’t sure what was real and what was not. I don’t care about imaginary characters. You gave me nothing to indicate that Nightmare wasn’t full of crap, and all of this was in the Hulk’s head. I have only Nightmare’s word that he’s encrouched on our plane, and he’s a lying, full-of-feces villian. Why should I care about Bruce’s past, or Betty’s peril if none of it seems real?
It seems that I’m part of a minority as it is, so I’m confused by your reaction. Calling me a dunce (or aluding to that accessment) seems like a weak argument. I didn’t say YOU sucked. I simply stated that this issue failed to work for me. If I remember, I also stated how much I loved Fallen Angel, a work of far deeper characters and situations. I see both the forest and the trees. I just don’t see them as you do in this instance.
Still, I thoroughly enjoy the discussion.
Later,
Chip
(Raises hand)
Sure, it was impressive, but no more traumatic than any other disaster that doesn’t directly involve me or people I care about. And it was followed by so much hand-wringing and saber-rattling that what sympathy I may have had got rapidly turned into mild annoyance.
I had no nightmares, felt no overwhelming grief or despair. I was a bit shocked that the buildings collapsed, because I hadn’t thought about the fire angle (a bomber hit the Empire State Building during WWII and the building was mostly fine, but the bomber didn’t have thousands of gallons of fuel).
Disasters claim lives all the time. Sorry to sound callous, but trying to empathize with them all would drive anyone mad. And the Twin Towers just weren’t close enough to me to get past that sanity-protecting barrier.
—Dave
Your story is set in the Marvel Universe Peter. You are aksing us to beleive that 911 gave Nightmare the power for Nightmare Island. So your asking us to beleive that in the Marvel Universe two buildings falling down is what did the trick for Nightmare. I understand you were trying for resonance, but that isn’t a magic sheild from the people who justifyably have a problem with the story.
And who said they were disappointed in you? It just sounds like your trying to protect yourself from your earlier comments about how the fans can sometimes disappoint you. And isn’t it just a little two faced of you talk about how fans thrive off of contact with the writer but balk at the notion of a level playing field, but when someone comes in with a valid point against your story you get disappointed in those fans? If you were looking for praise just ask “did I rock that issue or did I ROCK that issue?” instead of “whad’ja think”
Before I read other comments, I will post my immediate reaction: shock and awe. (I mean that in a good way.) Based on past books and comics, I did have confidence that the series would not just fizzle. But you far exceeded yourself this time. You have a rare talent to craft a story. I may not like all of them, but I absolutely respect your ability as a writer. The “secret” of the island evoked some very painful memories. In a few sentences, you captured a moment in time as few have the ability to do. Thanks.
Iowa Jim
Another hand up here.
My thought was “Gee, I’d hoped they would hold off on World War Three until after I was safely dead.”
Ok, I have read the comments and am somewhat taken aback. I can understand (somewhat) the confusion some might feel when you mix reality (9/11) with fiction (Marvel Universe). But I don’t understand how some do not see this as a PAD described it — a moment when the world stood in shock and horror. This was not the worse disaster in history. I realize seeing it on live TV and then replayed over and over caused it to burned into our minds. But this was not a “natural” disaster (like an earthquake or Tsunami). This was an act of hatred by some evil, cowardly men. This should not have happened.
I have my differences with PAD on how we should respond to this event. That is to be expected when an event is so traumatic. But to say it was not that big of a deal and just another disaster is beyond my ability to comprehend. I am not being critical of those who think differently, I am just saying I just plain can’t comprehend it.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
I may disagree with PAD’s politics, but he has a sharp mind. His comment nailed it. Something did change (for good or bad is up to you to decide) on 9/11.
Iowa Jim
eh, was hoping with PAD we’d get away from the mind games a bit, not looking forward to Jae Lee’s art or the “House of Bendizzzz” tie in.
Man, that last page was so Twilight Zone-y, I was half expecting a question mark on the “END” caption. I mean that in a good way.
Anyway, I’m gonna take a different route instead of the main topic, and just mention how much I loved the flashback sequences throughout the storyline. They really gave alot of insight into the character, (and had an awesome Fight Club moment, which I dug) while the primary plot was more of a mystery and Fing-Fang-Foom smashie-smashie. Nice balance of the two.
Still, someone clue me in on what this storyline had to do with the “main” plot. I liked it alot, maybe even more than the A plot, but is there some subtext in there connecting the two that I’m missing out on? Young Bruce’s nightmare comming to life with “Hulk” planting a bomb? The evil government whisking him away for thier own nefarious a-doings? What?
C’mon, someone, throw me a frickin’ bone here. I’m too stupid to pick it up.
PAD,
I LOVED the story. It made me remember why I love your writing is IMHO the first GREAT Hulk story you’ve done since you got back (and I’m a harsh judge_
And you are correct. Some, can’t see the forest for the trees.
I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. True, as time goes by, some twists and turns would have to be made to explain why all the super-heroes didn’t just go over to Afghanistan on 9/12 and tear every possible hiding place apart. (Or is it? Both the DC and Marvel universes are so filled to the brim with mutants and metas, it can easily be assumed enough would be in the Islamic world to make the spandex crowd think twice about such a move and how it would effect innocents in the area.) Kind of what Roy Thomas had to do in ALL-STAR SQUADRON to explain why just Superman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, and Spectre by themselves didn’t sink Japan the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed.
My only problem is that, knowing history like I do, there would’ve been other instances over the ages where Nightmare could’ve also established a real-world base. But then, Nightmare could be lying, or previous bases have somehow been eliminated, and the 9/11 base is the newest.
First of all, I’m glad the HULK is actually appearing in his comic again and actually has a personality. I’ve always liked you’ve written all the different versions of the big green guy.
But As of right now I’m not really crazy about this story. I hope this comes to an actual conclusion down the road, since i didn’t think this issue was much of one.
I hope we’re actually told what is real and what was a dream. I don’t like the idea of wondering “Is the hulk dreaming this or is this real?” every time i read a hulk comic from now on.
I was a bit dissappointed at the dismisal of the “Devil Hulk”.
Overall, I think Jenkins was pretty reverential to the multiple personality angle and the Devil Hulk would seem to have the potential for a great Hulk epic.
I’m happy to have you back Peter, but this issue leaves me wondering…what’s next?!?!? It looks like a fill-in issue next month & then the agonizing wait through a House of M crossover (at least we get Jorge Lucas, who drew the BEST Iron Man in years!!!!) I just want a little hint of what’s to come! Are you staying on board? Will Lee Weeks & Tom Palmer return? Are we going to get a story arc that focuses on Hulk’s interaction with his supporting cast, such as Betty, Samson, Ross, Rick, etc… Basically are we going to get back on track & get a direction going here again? The team that produced Tempus Fugit brought us the best Hulk in years, certainly the best art since the Sal Buscema days! Will you all return? Please!!!! If not, are the 2 artists hinted at on the letter’s page a real possibility?
Al
PS: I agree with a previous writer that it’d be nice to see Sal Buscema brought back for a story arc on HIS character before he gets too old! An even better idea would be to have Ernie Chan or Joe Rubinstein ink him!
We were unhappy when PAD left Hulk, now when hes back people still moan about what he’s written.
WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PLEASE YOU LOT!!!
PADs’ back lets enjoy it while it lasts.
Ian
PS. Things can be scrutinised a bit too much so that it spoils the enjoyment of it, lighten up.
I haven’t read hulk regularly in a long time, so I suppose I was a little thrown off by some of the back history I missed. What exactly happened to betty being in a coma/abomination, etc?
General comment since I haven’t read the book:
“I had no trouble with the story, especially the inclusion of 9/11 in the plotline. To NOT include it in Marvel continuity would remove the MU too much from the real world. “
The MU was removed from the real world a long time ago. Two buildings falling happens with stunning regularity in the MU and DCU. Cities are destroyed, aliens wipe out whole blocks, creatures from the deep flood New York. I always wondered what kind of people could populate a world where this happens so regularly and not be in constant walking shock or cringing terror?
Again, I’m making no comment on Peter’s story, but the lack of impact on MU “regular people” from all the constant death and destruction has effectively removed MU from reality, and doesn’t really address the issue realistically at all (as opposed to the events that took place in Miracle Man – that’s what a superbeing WOULD do to the world).
That’s been a stick in my craw for awhile; this just provided a forum for it. Ignore and carry on, I feel better…
“Just to blow my own horn: I was the first one on here a few months back to suggest that it was Nightmare and that those things looked like the Mindless ones.”
You guessed right as well? I remember guessing that the antagonist-‘daughter’ pair were either Dormammu-Clea (due to the Mindless Ones), The Shaper and herald replacing Glorian (the reality-warping) or Nightmare and Dreamqueen (the modus operandi). I almost nailed it with the last one at least. It was fun with all the thought-through false leads and possibilities of the story. 🙂
A question for Peter: Is it possible that we could receive a list of which stories are still in continuity from the incoherent, in-between travesties of the runs when you were away? The Absorbing Man as a serial-killing parasite, the Devil-Hulk, the Abomination’s petite ballerina wife as a hardcore spy and the unexplained ressurrections, mutations and deaths of the Leader should be out I guess, but which appearances are still legit? Just the ones outside his own book? Really the continuity of the Hulk had turned into a completely illogical mess, so I’m glad you’ve tried to straighten it out.
Also, I baguely remember a story forced on you from above where Nightmare and D’Spayre took Betty’s child. Was this Daydream or was the child conceived during Betty’s coma? Heck is Betty alive or dead now that the entire ‘Mr’ Blue idiocy of ‘Betty goes She-Hulk and gets cancer’ is taken away? The last scene was very confusing in this regard. Was that really Ross or another aspect of Nightmare impersonating him again? Hmm…
Also, is there any chance we could _please_ get a follow-up on whatever happened to the Maestro after last seen buried below a few tons of rock? Did he or didn’t he plan out the entire ‘poison Betty’-plot for the Abomination? I really, really hope you stay on the book for several years more. I love what you’re doing with it. 🙂
Just read the comic and then read the comments here. I was one of those that did not immediately get the 911 connection. Rereading it I see the reference, but not being american it didn’t have quite the same impact (if you’ll excuse the expression).
I recall watching it live on TV and the experience was very dreamlike, but at no point did I think “let it all not be real” – it was happening and I was watching it. In the context of the Marvel Universe it is completely incongrous. As with many real world events it just doesn’t work as such a big deal because so many other events have occured that should have had the same or worse effects, but because they aren’t written with any focus on the victims we don’t see any trauma caused.
In Marvel world knocking down a couple of big buildings in New York is an everyday occurance. That’s not to say we should be blase about 911, it’s saying that perhaps we should be seeing a little more cause and affect among ordinary everyday type people when the Baxter Building is destroyed or Galactus lands or fimbulwinter begins or any of the other disasters of catastrophic nature occur.
But back to the comic in progress, after loving preceeding issues I found the ending a bit week. Daydream was set up nicely but once revealed never really did anything and I was left feeling that this was some kind of prologue to her true story. The whole Nightmare twist was not really foreshadowed enough for me. Perhaps I missed an earlier hint, but using Mindless Ones was a complete red herring, and dismissing them as having been borrowed from a nearby dimension felt like a bit of a cheat.
All in all I felt it was too much like one of those mystery stories that you can’t solve because there are important pieces of the puzzle that aren’t revealed to you until the denoument. I’ve enjoyed the whole story a lot, but I definitely found this the weakest part of it.
I’m also interested in seeing what will be made of the unconnected sub-story, with the Hulk-personality as a would-be serial killing bomber and the new aunt. How exactly does she tie into the Bruce Banner-Jennifer, Elain & Morris Walters family? Elain and the new aunt were sibling of Bruce’s mother Rebecca right? Not of his psychotic stalker-ghost father? It’d be nice to see some brother-sister relationship between Jennifers&Bruce in any case. They each have one of the best quality books in the Marvel stock, so crossovers would be fun. 🙂
Peter,
Two points:
1. As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.
2. To be honest, I’ve found that people outside of New York city feel very differently about September 11 than people who live in the city. New Yorkers were hit harder, in a much more personal way than other Americans.
For most Americans, New York city is a far off, almost mythical place, that they only see about on TV and in movies, and the media is obsessed with. Most TV shows and many movies happen there, and the place is almost not even real. Often, NYC is almost a symbol of what they dislike about big cities, a place they will never go to and never want to go to.
I was teaching at Cornell in upstate NY then, and I quickly saw how differently 9/11 was hitting my students from New York city compared to those of other places. Most of us faculty spent our class periods trying to help and console our traumatized students from NYC.
I talked to colleagues in many other parts of the country, and in much of the country, universities conducted classes as normal on 9/11. Some commented on how untroubled their students seemed. Those students were not thinking “Oh, let this be a nightmare.” They were going about their lives as usual, Peter.
Events since then, such as the wars and election, also play out differently. For most Amerians, they have ended up being just more stuff they see on TV. All of the restrictions of people’s rights, air travel, etc., well, a big segment of the population hasn’t really been touched by that, either. “If you don’t fly, and if you don’t have anything to hide, what’s been the harm?” might summarize their thinking on those issues. As far as the wars go, I’ve heard people in rural America declare “It’s about time we got up off our áššëš and did something over there. W will teach them a lesson!” These people do not see themselves living in a nightmare. To them, Sepemter 11 was a wake up call, a message that our country needed to get to work. Many Bush voters are happy with how things are going.
I think how your story works for readers depends a whole lot on how all of the events on 9/11 and afterwards have affected them, and how closely their views and experiences match yours.
(I am greatly troubled by the events of 9/11, and I’ve been more troubled as our nation, having seen the effects of religious extremism and intolerance and hate writ large upon NYC, seems to have somehow missed that lesson entirely….)
Anyway, I look forward to more stories.
“It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.”
That’s the reason most of us europeans just stand by the side disbelievingwhen so many different reasons and smear-campaigns are used to justify the war. Most of us would likely be all for toppling dictatures if the humanitarian aspect and the hundreds of thousands of people dying in starvation from UN sanction had been brought up from the start. Instead we get allusions to a secularist Baath party-Fundamentalist Al Quaida connection, WMD’s regardless what the incorruptible Hans Blix has found out and _then_ the humanitarian aspect while cynically hurrying up the time of the invasion to fit the election period instead of thoroughly planning it out to avoid casualties (with an august death toll of 100,000 because of this). I mean can you blame people for seriously doubting the intentions of someone that shifty and justifying. This kind of serious matter takes trust and honesty to pull through.
“And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.””
Don’t feel too let down about that. I really liked the poetic resonance, even if I’ve personally seen extensive reports of horrors far far more shocking than 9/11. The recent tsunami among them. We’re still readers though. The fun parts of having you back on the book and doing some great things with it are bound to be a bit more exciting at the moment. We’re still caught up in that you’re _back_. 🙂