Heh, I feel kinda stupid for not realizing he was talking about September 11th. For real, I thought he meant Hiroshima or something (granted, I was reading this on the tram and I was like boiling in there from the intense heat, so my mind wasn’t all there…)
And of course I didn’t think “let this all be a nightmare” either when it was unfolding. I remember being deeply shocked and it did affect me and I thought it was horrible, but at no point did I wish it was just a nightmare because it was all too human. What it made me wonder was why it never happened before (or rather, how on earth it could’ve happened then, what with the States having the best security agencies anywhere, but let’s not start any conspiracy theories :p)
I also don’t think it changed the world so much. Or maybe it did, in the sense that relations between the States and just about any other country in the world have gotten far more tense. Considering that what happened was very much alike to the finale of Watchmen (only not involving any fantastic elements) it was interesting that the outcome in reality was the exact opposite of what Alan Moore wrote back then. Instead of joining together, both the world entire and the States themselves appear more divided than ever before. Talk about a road to ruin indeed!
I just can’t fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto. Surely anything involving World War II, or many of the great natural disasters since then, are more nightmarific than 9/11? Just because 9/11 happened on American soil doesn’t make it a bigger deal than, say, Dresden (which, when you read accounts, is far more dreadful indeed! Supposedly civilized men ordering innocent civilians wiped out in a conscious attempt to have the general public rise up against Hitler is as monstrous an act of terrorism as they come)
Now, all that aside: how was the story? Well, I can’t say I liked the ending much. I loved the art, but the writing didn’t engage me enough. I was all “oh, so it’s Nightmare, big deal”. It didn’t resonate with me. The flashbacks were interesting though in that I don’t know whether they’re meant to be real or not.
(What’s also interesting is that this is the second time you’ve given us a device to just go “oh, well that didn’t happen because…”, since I seem to remember that when Captain Marvel remade the universe, a similar comment was made about continuity screwups like the Absorbing Man thingie being accredited to that event :))
If the flashback is meant to be the truth, are we to take it that Bruce was an actual sociopath and that the US Army thought “hot dang, that kid’s useful!” I like my heroes tragic, but don’t know if I like them criminally insane :p
In the end, Tempest Fugit was a bizarre little tale that didn’t give me many new insights in the Hulk, despite all the flasbackery, simply because I cannot be sure whether they’re meant to be taken for real or not (and if they are, then the implications are unsavory, which I dislike). I’ll reread the five issues in a row to see if they hold up better taken as a whole though. I did like the “spooky” ending but then I hope it’ll be picked up on otherwise it’s just another tease, and I liked your Hulk more back in the day when everything was one huge story.
At any rate, there were good moments, it had nice art, it was just a bit clunky and unsatisfying at times. I don’t regret that I bought the issues though (something that, sadly, does happen often to me with other titles), so I think all in all it was okay. Not great, but not bad either. Here’s hoping your next couple issues won’t suck because of House Of M, the event I look forward to least of any event ever, for true 😀
I didn’t get the impression that Peter had implied that 911 was more devestating than WWII, the bombing of Japan, etc.
While the number of those who were murdered in the towers isn’t particularly high when compared to other atrocities committed by man upon man, it did have a monumentally personal effect on a great deal of Americans in that it was committed on our soil by “outsiders”. If anyone doubts this for a second, stop to consider the nationistic furvor that has arrisen within the U.S. and the all of the drastic actions that have been justified since.
Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was? Go to the extreme of using *insert your favorite nightmare here* as the basis for Nightmare’s little island adventure, if you have to.
Fred
Nope, Fred. This is Peter’s website. You have to expect ranting and raving from his fans. Since Peter does not fit into one repetitive type of writing, you are bound to have arguments from people who prefer one style over the over. Further, he rarely takes the easy way out.
Actually, the big suprise for me is that we have not seen some nut making an anti liberal or bigoted statement on his thread on his Wedding Anniversary.
I just can’t fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto.
Just a thought: Unlike the Tsunami and other natural disasters, 9/11 unfolded before our eyes. Many saw the second plane hit the second tower, and many more watched in horror as first one and then the other building fell, live and on TV. I completely agree that in the scale of things, they have been much greater disasters. But collectively watching it live, combined with the absolute certainty that this was deliberately done and not a natural disaster, made it far more horrifying at least for me.
Obviously, the impact of 9/11 on each of us is very personal. At least for myself, I was stunned by how how well PAD captured that moment. My hat is off to him for not only his skill, but for also, in my opinion, paying a tribute to those who lost their lives and the devestating impact it has had in the months and years that have followed.
On a separate note, I am wondering how many of you have forgotten that this was originally planned as a mini-series. A lot of the complaints and issues some of you are mentioning would not be as strong if you knew this was meant to be self contained. I was not expecting him to begin major events that foreshadowed what was ahead. Hints, perhaps, but not more than that. I am not a fan of most mini-series, but I would have felt this was worth my time and money (as I did with Madrox).
That’s my opinion. If PAD keep sputting out stories of this quality, I will continue to buy them.
Iowa Jim
“Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?”
Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter’s success.
My mind doesn’t simply turn off when I’m being entertained.
And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn’t ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn’t become Byrne, has he?
When I’m finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it’s just as forthcoming and honest.
I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won’t happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: “Oh, what perty pictures”.
Later,
Chip
I thought Nightmare using 9/11 was a brilliant thing. Not so much for the comentary element PAD mentioned up above, but it’s just a really intriguing concept storywise.
Also, if you really don’t like the idea of 9/11 happening in the MU…notice, it’s refered to a bit indirectly….so think of it as the Onslaught battle instead..or the Baxter Building blowing up..or Avengers disassembled…or whatever.
“Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?”
>Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter’s success.
>My mind doesn’t simply turn off when I’m being entertained.
Nor does mine. My intention was not to suggest turning off one’s mind. If I want that, I’ll reread my old Groo comics.
>And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn’t ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn’t become Byrne, has he?
Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.
>When I’m finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it’s just as forthcoming and honest.
I hope so as well, since feedback provides an opportunity for growth, regardless of whether or not there is agreement. What are you putting out, by the way?
>I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won’t happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: “Oh, what perty pictures”.
Well Chip, I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that you simply look at the perty pictures…. and I believe that it is spelled “pikturs” at that point.
I guess that I read the story and simply assumed that Nightmare, like any other villain who has suffered defeat repeatedly, has learned, grown and assumed new techniques and schemes in order to obtain the goals that he seeks. Perhaps he hadn’t considered this plan during the time of the Nazis….. or maybe PAD is the first writer to come up with this story for the funny books. 😛
Fred
Hey PAD, did you alter this story when it was decided that Tempest Fugit would be part of the regular comic instead of a mini series?
Fred,
Didn’t mean to sound so confrontational. It wasn’t my intent, though it certainly sounded that way. The net sucks for communicating.
Seems like we are of like minds, but reacted differently to the issue.
My book is Terran Sandz. Diamond has it and should schedule it soon. You can see some of it at http://www.onyxcross.com.
Later,
Chip
” As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.”
Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.
PAD
I didn’t like this issue. Far too wordy, and the Nightmare thing has been done like 1,001 times before. Bringing 9/11 into it was very forced.
It was a mixed bag to me.
I was a bit disappointed by the “it was just a dream” aspect of the resolution, though I admit the nightmare island twist was a nice variation on it. I also was put at a disadvantage because I wasn’t sure of the status quo of Betty, or the current Bruce/Hulk relationship, or which personality was in control of Hulk, or whatever. But that’s not your fault, Peter. I just wish they put some type of page or blurb giving the rundown of the current status of everything.
But the revelation that the Hulk was around in Bruce’s noggin as early as his high school years was good, as was the near-bombing of the school. I also liked the revelation of how he hooked up with the military.
I too, wasn’t as receptive to the 9/11 references as they you might’ve liked, Peter. Not the fact that the event is acknowledged in the MU-I literally cried when I read that issue of ASM. I just didn’t think the way it was used here rang true. As someone said earlier, haven’t there been events in the MU that rivaled or surpassed 9/11 in a way that Nightmare could’ve used to make that island? I think a better idea might’ve been to say that Nightmare created a tiny stepping stool in the middle of the ocean with some really old event, like the San Francisco fires in the early 1900s (it has to be something that occurred during the age of global communication-so as to emphasize the point that only collective emotions of entire swaths of the human populace would have the necessary effect), and that it slowly grew over the decades with subsequent events like Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust, the invasion of Manhattan by aliens, Galactus and Namor, maybe the destruction of that Russian volcano by Magneto, the Rwandan genocide, the War in Bosnia, AND 9/11. Maybe 9/11 was the final event needed to make the island large enough or “real” enough for Nightmare’s purposes, and more recent events like the recent superstorm in Uncanny X-Men would add to its potency. I would’ve bought that. But the sole attribution of it to 9/11, by itself, didn’t ring true to me. I read your explanation of how 9/11 was different, but then I would’ve liked some line by Nightmare like, “Oh sure, there were others….lots…throughout all of history…but this one was different. It was all concentrated at one specific moment that happened in front of everyone’s eyes…it was quite unique in that regard.” This is just me, Peter.
By contrast, your BID column on 9/11, in which you mused what it might’ve been liked if 9/11 happened in a universe populated by Superman or Batman, was EXTREMELY POWERFUL, and I really wished someone had produced a comic based on that, given all the 9/11 tribute books the industry did.
And yeah, I too didn’t buy Magneto or Dr. Doom being there crying. Kingpin I could understand, but Magneto has probably killed far more humans (whom he does not see as his people) than the 3,000 who died on 9/11.
Peter David: A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Luigi Novi: Well no, since I was asleep when it happened, and woke up about an hour or so after it happened, and was quite lucid. My personal disbelief was in trying to comprehend that the “planes” they spoke of where not small single engine planes that have crashed into buildings like the Empire State Building before, but big jet liners, and that the “collapse” they spoke of did not refer to some small portion of the buildings, but to the entire things. I remember walking down to Hoboken that day, taking some shots from Frank Sinatra Boulevard, and wondering why I couldn’t see the towers through the smoke, thinking that I should’ve been able to see the tops of them. I was still not comprehending that the entire buildings were gone.
Don: While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.
Peter David: Why? See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a reader or writer being “disappointed,” but I take issue when one says that the other “cant’ see the forest for trees, which I think makes it sound as if the quality of the story is somehow a foregone empirical conclusion, rather than a difference of opinion, or merely a matter of a writer and reader not having connected on the story. A level playing field means the reader might say they didn’t care for the story, and the writer might say, “Well, sorry you didn’t care for it, but I stand by it.” (This excludes the sort of rude trolling whereby a reader insists on seeing things in the story that weren’t there, or accusing the writer of having an intent or message in the story that he really didn’t.) I don’t think either side should accuse the other of “not getting it,” as I’ve been criticized at imdb for not caring for a particular movie, or of not seeing the forest for the trees.
I don’t think it’s a question of not getting your intentions (assuming that’s what you meant by not seeing the forest for the trees), but simply that I didn’t care for the idea as executed.
Sorry if I disappoint you, Peter. But it’s just one story, so don’t worry. I still love ya. 🙂
But I STILL can’t wait for your Spidey! Given your trademark humor, and Spidey’s trademark snideness when fighting the bad guys, I’m wondering why you haven’t gone back to the character earlier!
And btw, at Wikipedia, the entry for the Hulk once stated that you wrote the book for “almost I decade.” I corrected it, so that it now states you wrote it for almost twelve years.
Fred Chamberlain: Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.
Luigi Novi: Again, I didn’t miss the point. I just didn’t care for it.
Nice work, Chip. The premise that opens the books is interesting, and the art has a nice minimalist, Ed McGuiness-like evocation to it. Good luck with it!
Thanks, Luigi. If you get a chance to see the full issue, I hope you’ll let me know what you think of it.
As far as the subject of this thread, you were far more eloquent than I. Nicely put.
Later,
Chip
>A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Count my hand.
I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn’t “let it be a nightmare” but “OK, we are all well and truly screwed” and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately …
>Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not.
Exactly.
> “hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?”
The timetable in the Marvel universe would have had to be different. Once the first plane hit, there would have been enough spandex around the initial crash site to help out that it would ensure the second could never hit even if they didn’t know the first wasn’t an accident – unless the second had hit at almost the exact same time as the first. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense.
> As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.
Initial reaction was “if you mean the horror of Hiroshima/Nagasaki or the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden, yeah, you have a point” but then thought about it some more and, as Peter and others subsequently pointed out, these events weren’t broadcast live to hundreds of millions of people around the globe.
Mr. David – All in all a suitably ‘different’ story with lots of good points and all very worhtwhile, if only to see Bruce and Betty back together at some point. As was intimated in another of my posts recently [re – MJ and Peter], such relationships are often the only really good thing in an otherwise dismal existence for these characters and it bothers me when the authors feel a need to have that get screwed up, too. It may be like in real life, but there can be such a thing as too much reality here.
“Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.
PAD”
OK. I got it now. Thanks, Peter.
1There’s nothing in HULK #81 that comes out and says “Al Queda destroyed the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 and that’s what allowed Nightmare to create the island.” It’s strongly _implied_ but not explicitly stated. That would’ve required actually saying “9/11,” “Al Queda,” etc. That’s why I’m willing to let it slide, because in a New York City with the Avengers, the FF, etc., the WTC destruction would not have taken place.
I enjoyed the story. It’s nice to have PAD back writing Hulk stories. I did figure out that Nightmare was the villain early on (that one panel with the hand with long fingernails did it) though I forgot that he rides a dark horse.
Great art by Weeks and Palmer.
I am a bit put off by Banner being shown to have been so mentally disturbed in high school. It doesn’t entirely jibe with earlier stories — we’ve never seen a scene where Banner thinks “The Hulk? They’re calling the monster ‘the Hulk’? That was the name of the monster that taunted me!” or anything like that.
Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place…please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed – among other recent events, and there was an issue of “Rom” years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died. Just chalk it up to the heroed were doing something else that day, enjoy stories like JMS’ and PAD’s and move on.
Chip,
Enjoyed your observations and good luck with your book.
What I found interesting is that this is the second time since I first started reading Hulk comics that Nightmare has been messed with the Hulk’s mind.
What I don’t find interesting is the constant muddling of the Hulk origin. Frankly, I’m sick to death of the idea of Bruce Banner being a troubled soul with a tormented childhood getting hammered into the readership in nearly every issue (I’m exaggerating of course). Bad enough we get that from the Batman comics, but the Hulk?
As a fan, I’d like to see the Hulk rebooted to where it’s just the gamma bomb that created him (again) and we can forget all about this MPD/I-blame-my-father nonsense.
PAD: “Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.”
But isn’t the notion as to [u]why[/u] this gave such a shock even scarier? It wasn’t so much a blow to the collective conscience of caring about human lives, it was a blow to a sense of elevate, unassailable all-encompassing arrogance of ‘being above and more worth than the rest of the world’ which few other civilised countries come close to match. The geographical isolation has had a lot of nasty side-effects affecting the public conscience, creating an ‘us’ against ‘them’ mentality instead of ‘we’re all in this together’. I mean even a far back as WWII the republicans stopped every motion from Roosewelt to enter the conflict and put a stop to the horrors until it became apparent that, despite the sea, America wasn’t completely unassailable. It became an interference of self-interest rather than altruism, which is a kind of creepy thought. In comparison Europe is a lot more connected and affected by other people’s conflicts so we have less dulled down sense of empathy towards other people. It seemed more like america was shocked due to the unusual feeling of being upset about [u]anything[/u] due to being more personally affected. In comparison we’re a lot more used to the thought that disaster could strike close to home and get so many detailed reports from disaster-zones such as Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Indonesia… which made that particular humanitarian aspect almost feel trivial in comparison. Not to mention the people who live with monthly or even weekly rates of death of that magnitude. Africa, Asia or the Middle-East would have a very hard time to empathise, given that they’ve been victims to horrors partially encouraged by ourselves for a very long time. Reagan outfitted Saddam with weapons in the conflict with Iran in the first place and that resulted in round 2 million deaths following it. Many people still like to believe that the conflict in Vietnam was carried out in an acceptable way despite 1 million local deaths and support of a corrupted dictator (that’s not to say the opposing side was any better of course) to avoid getting rid of fanatic national pride instead of putting priority on people not nations. The level of deaths indirectly created by the western world and US in particular has been of a staggering effect, but the difference between US and European citisens is that we at least get a more thorough investigation of them and don’t seem nearly as dulled off.
Starwolf: “I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn’t “let it be a nightmare” but “OK, we are all well and truly screwed” and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately …”
Yeah, that was my immediate reaction as well. ‘Oh šhìŧ, this will loosen all kinds better left burried tensions and self-righteous bloodthirst from both sides, which the skillful will take advantage of and inflame. Just how far will this go?’ Was my initial thought. The tsunami-disaster occured in front of my eys as well and had far more of an immediate shock regarding the amount of lives lost.
A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
That would be me, which I’m sure has a lot to do with the fact that I’m English (and have never been to the USA). Don’t get me wrong – it was a bad thing, and I sympathise with everyone who was affected by it. However, I grew up hearing about the IRA blowing things up, and this initially seemed like more of the same. I’d never heard of Al Queda before that, and I was only dimly aware of the Twin Towers, so when I saw the news on a website (“buildings destroyed, 6 people known to be dead”) it just wasn’t that much of a shock. Obviously the death toll turned out to be rather higher than that, but I just found out the extra information gradually, so there was no one moment of “Oh my god!” for me.
More generally, I remember one of PAD’s early Hulk stories, about a woman who’s attacked by a serial killer, and says something like “Now I’m one of the ‘other people’ that these things only ever happen to”. And I get the impression (although I could be wrong) that lots of Americans had the same attitude towards terrorism – i.e. it’s just something that happens in other countries, which meant that the event had much more of an impact.
As for the latest issue of Hulk overall, honestly I’d have to say that it didn’t really grab me much. i’m sure it will work better if I re-read the whole storyline in one go, but as it was my memory of previous issues is a bit hazy. Any chance of getting recap pages again, like “Thunderbolts” is doing? And as part of that, I was a bit confused by what had actually happened. So, I’m happy to keep reading new issues, but this didn’t make any great impression on me.
One minor nitpick – when Nightmare went through his sequence of fake identities, how do we actually know that the final one was the real one? It seems that we only have Daydream’s word for it, and since most of the creatures on the island were under the villain’s control, that’s not entirely conclusive… In a way, this reminds me of the “Smoke and Mirrors” Spider-man storyline (back during the Clone Saga), where the Jackal kept giving misinformation, and I wound up saying “Fine, whatever, I’m not going to believe any of it until I see real proof”. That said, I don’t have any strong feelings about Nightmare as a villain, so I’m not fussed about whether he really was the one behind this whole thing or not.
——-
You know…sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.
I wrote the sequence–including Nightmare’s speech–because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.
PAD
————-
*puts hand up*
I’ve been trying for days to work out a way of pointing this out, but Paul O’Brien’s done it for me now:
——————– http://thexaxis.com/capsules/29May05.htm
I’m also underwhelmed by the presentation of 9/11 as an event so shockingly unique in human history that it allows Nightmare to get a foothold in the real world for the first time. Don’t get me wrong – 9/11 is horrible, of course, but it’s scarcely unique. It just happens to be an atrocity which has particular emotional resonance for Americans. And that’s fair enough, but let’s keep it in perspective. Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It’s an attitude of “This happened to us, so it counts more”. Perhaps it works for Americans, but it certainly doesn’t work for me.
———–
I’m not American, and I didn’t watch TV thinking “let this be a dream” and don’t know anyone who did.
Paul’s criticism seems to be that it’s Amero-centric, and I guess that’s a legitimate reason for him as a non-American to dislike it… but shouldn’t it be expected that writing will reflect the world view of the writer? I mean, I read comics from British writers and see a very British POV in them, but that’s par for the course.
PAD, I think I am misreading you considering your defense of World War II not being enough to establish Nightmare a foothold in our world, but would it be a reasonable interpretation to say that what gave Nightmare the foothold following 9/11 was the collective refusal by a large portion of the American people to accept reality and instead yearn for a supposedly happier deception from their leaders?
I am astonished that a large number of people who I would guess would be in agreement with your politics are not seeing how your portrayal of Nightmare is showing your agreement with them.
“Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It’s an attitude of “This happened to us, so it counts more”.”
No, it’s really not that at all, and I find the comment extremely offensive.
No one is denying mankind’s long history of committing atrocities, one upon the other.
However, if Paul O’Brien or anyone for that matter would like to trot out a previous instance of a single act of war (upon a people who weren’t at war and were thus caught completely off-guard) unfolding real time, as millions upon millions watched…in a scenario that involved neither bombs nor bullets, but instead a scenario so much the stuff of fiction that it had shown up in an episode of “Lone Gunmen”…then I would very much like them to trot it out.
9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don’t work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it’s damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.
To try and dismiss that as “parochial,” or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I’m just a dumb-ášš xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.
PAD
The more I think about it, the more I think that it takes monumental effort to miss the point of Nightmare’s speech. To come back with, “Oh, but wasn’t Hiroshima traumatic?” “Oh, but what about this disaster or that disaster?”
I re-read the speech, and my God, how can ANYONE misinterpret it to the degree that I’m seeing? It’s RIGHT THERE:
“A domain that I was able to establish several years ago, one fine September morning, when the line between reality and fantasy irrevocably blurred. It was remarkable. Countless people, watching in shared horror, over and over again, rubbing the sleep from their eye, gazing in stupefaction…thinking that they were watching a scene ripped from fiction. As if disaster movies had crossed into the realm of actuality, fantasy given substance.”
It’s not simply that lots of people died. It’s not simply that it was traumatic. It’s not just that it happened to us (I mean, really, you really, really missed the point if you think that was my reasoning.) It’s that it really, really DID blur the line between fantasy and reality for the whole of human consciousness in a way that no event I can think of previously ever did. And when that line was blurred to such a huge degree, at EXACTLY THE SAME MOMENT FOR MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF HUMANS, it caused a sea-change in the way we perceived the world around us and Nightmare slipped through.
And since then, lies and deception and confusion as to who’s alive, who’s dead, and whose war is justified or unjustified, is our every day existence. So we live day to day, trying to figure out what to believe, what not to believe, and what parts of our recent history are true and accurate and which aren’t.
Anyone who wants to write that off as some simplistic “Peter David’s just retconning some recent Hulk stories” is welcome to do so. But, again…point hugely missed.
PAD
PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.
“PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.”
It was shocking, certainly, but assassinations are simply nothing new…especially considering the President had been assassinated shortly before. Certainly not enough, I would think, to blur the border between reality and fantasy.
PAD
The only thing that would probably come even REMOTELY close would be the Challenger disaster, and even that can’t really stack up against the whole world watching the Twin Towers fall on every television channel, radio station, and on the internet, in real time.
-Rex Hondo-
PAD: Again, not disagreeing with you, but as I believe the URL I included shows, the television coverage following the assassination of JFK is in my opinion the equal of the coverage from all media following 9/11. To quote the article, “In truth, as much as the Kennedy assassination itself, the on-air murder of the president’s alleged assassin creates an almost vertiginous imbalance in televiewers, a sense of American life out of control and let loose from traditional moorings.”
The closest analogy to “where were you when 9/11” occurred is almost certainly “where were you when JFK was shot.”
> I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.
My impression from reading quotes from many people and even talking with relatives who were around at the time was that the immediate response of many was “Good, the $#%@#% got what was coming to him.”. This was, of course, before everyone began to consider the many implications of that act and began to realize all of the unanswered questions that Oswald’s death would leave.
Fred
Peter,
You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn’t. Since I’m fairly certain this isn’t the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don’t.
Getting flustered with those of us that didn’t, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn’t do much to indear you in our eyes— or my eyes, at least. Granted, I’m only one reader, and you’ve earned thousands upon thousands uon thousands, so who gives a crap if I decide to bale on your future work? I collect to be entertained or to learn, not to be told I’m stupid.
You did your best. Lay off the reader, and continue doing what you do so well.
Later,
Chip
“You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn’t. Since I’m fairly certain this isn’t the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don’t.”
Oh, I know that. Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity. Some of the best work of my life is stuff that the bulk of fans either didn’t bother to purchase or read and just shrugged and said, “I don’t get it.”
“Getting flustered with those of us that didn’t, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn’t do much to indear you in our eyes— or my eyes, at least.”
Well, number one, I wasn’t flustered. I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things, and I was pìššëd øff because I’m essentially being accused of being indifferent to the loss of lives in other countries during wartime simply because they’re not Americans, or thinking that American lives are more important. Apparently some reviewers are oblivious to the fact that people of all nationalities died that day in those towers…it was called “World” for a reason, and that–to my mind–was part of the world-wide impact that it had. To sit there and say that it’s simply an American thing denotes far more conservative nationalism than anything remotely expressed in the comic.
As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic? Not only should I simply nod my head when I think people mischaracterize me or my work, but I should also carefully weigh whether I should express my opinion against business considerations. I mean, there ARE people out there who do that. Who are very circumspect in everything they say or do publicly because they don’t want to risk offending potential readers.
Me, I think I prefer to say what I think.
PAD
“Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity.”
Isn’t that the case for alot of artists? Even at my day job, the designs I feel are the most original, effective and innovative are all but ignored next to the formulaic (sp?) crap my bosses prefer.
“I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things…”
Potatoe, patatoe (or however the heck it’s spelled). But I think I know what you mean. But I think even that is a common occurence for someone like you who has, what, a billion readers. You still don’t change any minds berating or arguing with your few decentors.
“As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic?”
I think this too is a difference of perspective. I love this medium, but view it as a business to put food on the table. I don’t argue with those who don’t get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the “costumer is always right” model of business; second, it’s a bloody waste of time. I’ve never changed a mind, and I don’t recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I’d rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it’ll be well recieved.
But, you know, your success more than qualifies that you know what your doing, so this is little more than an IMO moment.
Tanks for the discussion. I enjoy this stuff.
Later,
Chip
“I don’t argue with those who don’t get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the “costumer is always right” model of business; second, it’s a bloody waste of time. I’ve never changed a mind, and I don’t recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I’d rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it’ll be well recieved.”
Well, first of all, the customer isn’t always right. Very frequently, the customer is dead wrong. Stan used to point out, when the customers would deluge him with letters begging for all of Peter Parker’s problems to be solved, that if he did that, Peter would no longer be interesting. And he was right.
And which customers are we talking about? The customers who say I should be writing stuff that’s new and different? The customers who refuse to purchase anything of mine new and different?
I fully understand that the customer is “always right” (at the risk of sounding like Obi-Wan) from a certain point of view. Essentially, everyone is right in their own opinion.
But I’m not a retailer out to sell hand cream or capri pants, determined to play to the buyer’s vanity by assuring them that, hëll yes, those black stretch pants absolutely make their áššëš look remarkably slim when, in fact, they should stay away from the seashore since their butts are going to affect the tides no matter what color they’re wearing.
I’m a writer. I try to make people think about things they haven’t considered before, not massage their egos or assure them that they’re always right. You know the customer isn’t always right. I know it too. It’s a lie. A convenient excuse for shrugging and smiling. I neither shrug nor smile, and I do not give up. Ever.
To say that you think it’s a waste of time and that you’ve never changed someone’s mind shows, to me, two things. First, you set the bar for achievement way too low.
And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs…a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren’t changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.
And I’ll take that. I’ll take that.
You know the difference between you and me, Chip? The way I see it…I’m Johnny Appleseed. You’re the guy behind the register selling fruit.
PAD
“…I’m Johnny Appleseed. You’re the guy behind the register selling fruit.”
Very funny. You should be a writer.
I prefer discussion over beratement. As I think this discussion illustrates, I don’t just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions. Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you’re full of crap. At least for me, I’ve learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum.
You push my buttons and keep me on my toes. I enjoy that.
There’s no price tag on those apples, by the way, sir. Perhaps if you brought me a bag you hadn’t smashed to a pulp, sir.
Later,
Chip
“I prefer discussion over beratement.”
Can’t we do both?
Seriously, I don’t feel as if I was berating you. I think I made a logical series of observations based upon your own words. If you don’t like where the conclusion went, well…maybe you weren’t well-served by the sentiment you expressed.
“As I think this discussion illustrates, I don’t just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions.”
Okay, but since that was never at issue, I’m not sure why you’re mentioning it.
“Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you’re full of crap. At least for me, I’ve learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum.”
So you say. But saying one has an open mind doesn’t give them any kind of moral superiority to one who has strong opinions. There are certain things I have an open mind about, and certain things about which I’ve made up my mind. If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn’t know his mind about any things. And although you contend now that you think I’m full of crap, a year, two years from now…you may realize I was right. So I’ll take those odds.
PAD
Actually, I never said you were full of crap, OR that I was morally superior. I said “even IF…”.
At least from my vantage point, I can be both confident in my strong opinions AND open minded.
And as far as the berating thing…
After re-reading the posts, I agree (except for the cashier jockey comment— if I used emoticons, I’d have a wink here), you weren’t berating. Challenging, yes. Berating, no. I especially like the level playing field comment.
We’ll agree to disagree on the issue this thread is about. Unless you want to challenge the thinking of my original, issue-based comments…
Still dreamin’ of more Fallen Angel.
Thanks for the exchange,
Chip
1
>>And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs…a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren’t changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.
–Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you’ve studied some aspects of human nature in your time.
But seriously…….
Will we be seeing more of the HORSE?
PAD,
I agree with the comments you have made on this thread more than any I can remember. While sometimes I feel you get a LITTLE too hot, that is not the case at all this time. Particularly your reaction to the “Customer is always right” comment. Yes, the customer is often dead wrong.As you say, who are you supposed to assume is right, those who want you to write the way they’re used to or those who want you to try different things.
Two examples that immediately spring to mind are :
A.) Readers at the time surely would have voted to keep Gwen Stacy alive three decades ago. But her death was one of the most powerful Spidey stories of all time and was a true watershed moment for the character. It allowed Peter Parker to grow and still has resonance to this day.
B.) Star Trek fans, if given a vote, likely would not have let Spock die in “Wrath of Khan”; they would have brought back the old crew instead of launching “Next Generation”; they would not have had peace with the Klingons or had one in Starfleet. Yet these and many other developments allowed the Trek mythos to grow and prosper.
Finally,”If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn’t know his mind about any things.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
PAD: 9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don’t work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it’s damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.
Yeah, that’s pretty much my understanding as well. Many people get the concepts of warranted intervention or one carried out due to lots of veils and excuses mixed up. I’m personally pro-intervention, but the motivations and means used must be pure.
PAD: To try and dismiss that as “parochial,” or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I’m just a dumb-ášš xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.
I didn’t mean to come across that way, so I’m sorry and apologise if I did and offended you. You’ve always seemed like an extremely ethical fellow on top of being one of my favourite writers.
My viewpoint in the replies (to stimulate me into a musing mood can be a bad idea) wasn’t intended to be seen as you personally not caring. I actually liked the powerful poetic notion of reality and dream getting blurred, even if I’m still caught up in the fact tat you’re actually back on the book and very curious about that.
However, from an outsider perspective you do eventually get to view the mechanics of american society and public mindset as a whole in a certain way when it’s seemingly consistently easily manipulated into ruthless self-righteousness due to national pride and comparatively minor incidents, while those in the big world outside go left unnoticed.
On the other hand the recent tsunami-disaster had us citisens more informed, worried and caring about people at large than I’ve ever seen them, so I see some very positive development as well. In that respect at least the incident may have served as a wake-up call? Oh well, rambling alert. All the best in any case. I hope my previous lack of eloquence didn’t sour you on somehow addressing the questions raised in the first two posts. :\
In an attempt to clarify: It’s more about the concept itself of ‘Why would such a comparatively ‘minor’ incident be able to create such an all-encompassing self-explaining urge for paranoid defence at all costs when much bigger events don’t?’. The effect of blurred lines has become apparent and I had a strong suspicion about a lot of people trying to use it that way right from the start, but _how_ could it have such a profound impact?
It does fit into a theme of perceived elevated and apart position from the rest of the World and somehow already sufficiently developed superior ethical standards, which give a higher right without need for further learning and input. Regardless that the corruption and violence quota or general humanitarian issues compared to other countries may warrant a serious look-over until considering that the standards may not be set high enough. The _fundaments themselves_ for this incident to have such a profound shock and enormous consequences as it did do indeed seem to be built on a large dose of xenophobia, arrogant pride and jingoistic entitlement. That’s not to generalise far too much and say that this is somehow an all-encompassing trait, but it seems very present in a lot of people. There’s a big difference between recognising that and somehow uniformly directing ‘inherited guilt’ through association as a mere citizen though. You’re definitely not a xenophobe or uncaring about other people. I didn’t at all take it that way before I somehow got stimulated into entering this discussion (which wasn’t exactly what I originally had in mind when intending to give you praise for the new run, but I consistently seem to let curiousity and impulse get the better of me) and I didn’t mean to imply it. On the other hand on the surface itwould seem that this kind of severe widespread reaction should be provoked by far more large-scale incidents than a couple of terrorists showing their complete lack of weapons resources by hijacking two planes and using them as weapons. Oh well, even more rambling, but I hope I made it a bit clearer.
–“Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you’ve studied some aspects of human nature in your time.”
I read a bunch of psych texts and books on human development when I first started writing the Hulk years ago. A lot of it stayed with me, plus I think most writers are observers of human nature.
PAD
PAD: “Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not.”
To steal from an old joke, that’s easy — you can tell when you’re being lied to when George W. Bush’s lips move. 🙂
–R.J.
Well,
I haven’t really had the patience to read through all of the comments on this thread, and I know I’m pretty late, so maybe someone has already pointed this out, but, from the posts I did read, I guess people who complain about PAD’s use of 9/11 in Hulk #81 aren’t focusing on the main argument behind this specific plot point. Most readers apparently see it as a cheap bridge between the world of fiction and the real world, but, to me, that’s missing the point entirely.
To me, this is a classic comics moment, because it goes way beyond the events of 11/09. Maybe I can say that unashamed because I’m not American, and, sure, the terrorist attacks have a different meaning for most of the other readers on this blog than it does for me, but the fact is Nightmare’s speech is not (only) about that specific day.
The whole thing is about a different way of life, a different vision of the world, one that had been forming long before that took place. And those events simply accelerated and solidified this new perception of the world, as we now have it, not as individuals, but as a collectivity.
The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don’t know exactly what you can trust as the ‘truth’. The very definition of ‘truth’ has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. You could argue the notion of ‘one reality’ doesn’t even exist anymore, and it’s being replaced by individual realities.
I mean, speaking specifically of the 9/11 events, it has a different meaning across the world, depending on where you stand, geographically. I can mourn the death of thousands caused by an act of insanity, but I can’t feel threatened or disillusioned as an American did that day. The same way someone who lives in LA has experienced it differently from a NY resident, so on and so forth.
We live in a different world now than when these rigid notions of truth and reality were created. It may be disheartening to some people to see how these perceptions may have become individualistic through the years, but, to me, that’s exactly the beauty of PAD’s idea: it’s not just a comment on one specific real-life event, but more of a comment on a new social, collective arrangement.
Anyway, this post is a pretty shallow attempt at a much deeper and more critical subject than my words would make one believe. Still, I felt I had to say that I love how PAD analyses the way the Western civilization has been restructuring itself for the past years.
By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back… or perhaps even the best use ever. The dialogue in the book is pretty self-explanatory as to why it makes so much sense, so I won’t waste time explaining it all over again.
This is meaningful comics, so thanks PAD.
Oh, sorry for the crappy English, but, again, I’m not American.
Cheers
“Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place…please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed – among other recent events, and there was an issue of ‘Rom’ years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died.”
Just saying… the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes live neither in Genosha nor Canada…. so your examples are really stupid and quite irrelevent. They live in the same city as the place that was destroyed.
Aside from that, we could or could not assume at our leisure that the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes were busy during 9/11/1 or they actually stopped the attack. Either way, ASM #36 was not canonical.
I have no opinion about the story; I raise my hand.
Are all of PAD’s Hulk issues still canonical?
“The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don’t know exactly what you can trust as the ‘truth’. The very definition of ‘truth’ has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. “
I would of course argue that the lack of information in days gone by made it much easier to manipulate people, while those with high-level analytical skills can now at least pick up different resources and form a pattern. Pf course that takes energy most people can’t aware… Still I’m swedish. Along with Norway I live in one of the two by far least corrupted, most humanitarian society on Earth if the statitics are to be believed. We’re not used to almost anyone in either the press or the government having anything less than noble ideals driving them, so the notion of complete distrust for any form of information creating conflict in a severely biased pattern is hard to relate to except at an abstract level and through experience of talking to a few hundred seemingly thoroughly evil nutcases online.
“By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back… or perhaps even the best use ever. “
Ditto on that. I remember him used well during the arc around the Secret Wars, Mark Waid’s Captain America run and this (but I haven’t read much Doctor Strange so what do I know?)
• 
Heh, I feel kinda stupid for not realizing he was talking about September 11th. For real, I thought he meant Hiroshima or something (granted, I was reading this on the tram and I was like boiling in there from the intense heat, so my mind wasn’t all there…)
And of course I didn’t think “let this all be a nightmare” either when it was unfolding. I remember being deeply shocked and it did affect me and I thought it was horrible, but at no point did I wish it was just a nightmare because it was all too human. What it made me wonder was why it never happened before (or rather, how on earth it could’ve happened then, what with the States having the best security agencies anywhere, but let’s not start any conspiracy theories :p)
I also don’t think it changed the world so much. Or maybe it did, in the sense that relations between the States and just about any other country in the world have gotten far more tense. Considering that what happened was very much alike to the finale of Watchmen (only not involving any fantastic elements) it was interesting that the outcome in reality was the exact opposite of what Alan Moore wrote back then. Instead of joining together, both the world entire and the States themselves appear more divided than ever before. Talk about a road to ruin indeed!
I just can’t fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto. Surely anything involving World War II, or many of the great natural disasters since then, are more nightmarific than 9/11? Just because 9/11 happened on American soil doesn’t make it a bigger deal than, say, Dresden (which, when you read accounts, is far more dreadful indeed! Supposedly civilized men ordering innocent civilians wiped out in a conscious attempt to have the general public rise up against Hitler is as monstrous an act of terrorism as they come)
Now, all that aside: how was the story? Well, I can’t say I liked the ending much. I loved the art, but the writing didn’t engage me enough. I was all “oh, so it’s Nightmare, big deal”. It didn’t resonate with me. The flashbacks were interesting though in that I don’t know whether they’re meant to be real or not.
(What’s also interesting is that this is the second time you’ve given us a device to just go “oh, well that didn’t happen because…”, since I seem to remember that when Captain Marvel remade the universe, a similar comment was made about continuity screwups like the Absorbing Man thingie being accredited to that event :))
If the flashback is meant to be the truth, are we to take it that Bruce was an actual sociopath and that the US Army thought “hot dang, that kid’s useful!” I like my heroes tragic, but don’t know if I like them criminally insane :p
In the end, Tempest Fugit was a bizarre little tale that didn’t give me many new insights in the Hulk, despite all the flasbackery, simply because I cannot be sure whether they’re meant to be taken for real or not (and if they are, then the implications are unsavory, which I dislike). I’ll reread the five issues in a row to see if they hold up better taken as a whole though. I did like the “spooky” ending but then I hope it’ll be picked up on otherwise it’s just another tease, and I liked your Hulk more back in the day when everything was one huge story.
At any rate, there were good moments, it had nice art, it was just a bit clunky and unsatisfying at times. I don’t regret that I bought the issues though (something that, sadly, does happen often to me with other titles), so I think all in all it was okay. Not great, but not bad either. Here’s hoping your next couple issues won’t suck because of House Of M, the event I look forward to least of any event ever, for true 😀
I didn’t get the impression that Peter had implied that 911 was more devestating than WWII, the bombing of Japan, etc.
While the number of those who were murdered in the towers isn’t particularly high when compared to other atrocities committed by man upon man, it did have a monumentally personal effect on a great deal of Americans in that it was committed on our soil by “outsiders”. If anyone doubts this for a second, stop to consider the nationistic furvor that has arrisen within the U.S. and the all of the drastic actions that have been justified since.
Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was? Go to the extreme of using *insert your favorite nightmare here* as the basis for Nightmare’s little island adventure, if you have to.
Fred
Nope, Fred. This is Peter’s website. You have to expect ranting and raving from his fans. Since Peter does not fit into one repetitive type of writing, you are bound to have arguments from people who prefer one style over the over. Further, he rarely takes the easy way out.
Actually, the big suprise for me is that we have not seen some nut making an anti liberal or bigoted statement on his thread on his Wedding Anniversary.
I just can’t fathom how something like 9/11 would be that great for Nightmare to grab onto.
Just a thought: Unlike the Tsunami and other natural disasters, 9/11 unfolded before our eyes. Many saw the second plane hit the second tower, and many more watched in horror as first one and then the other building fell, live and on TV. I completely agree that in the scale of things, they have been much greater disasters. But collectively watching it live, combined with the absolute certainty that this was deliberately done and not a natural disaster, made it far more horrifying at least for me.
Obviously, the impact of 9/11 on each of us is very personal. At least for myself, I was stunned by how how well PAD captured that moment. My hat is off to him for not only his skill, but for also, in my opinion, paying a tribute to those who lost their lives and the devestating impact it has had in the months and years that have followed.
On a separate note, I am wondering how many of you have forgotten that this was originally planned as a mini-series. A lot of the complaints and issues some of you are mentioning would not be as strong if you knew this was meant to be self contained. I was not expecting him to begin major events that foreshadowed what was ahead. Hints, perhaps, but not more than that. I am not a fan of most mini-series, but I would have felt this was worth my time and money (as I did with Madrox).
That’s my opinion. If PAD keep sputting out stories of this quality, I will continue to buy them.
Iowa Jim
“Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?”
Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter’s success.
My mind doesn’t simply turn off when I’m being entertained.
And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn’t ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn’t become Byrne, has he?
When I’m finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it’s just as forthcoming and honest.
I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won’t happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: “Oh, what perty pictures”.
Later,
Chip
I thought Nightmare using 9/11 was a brilliant thing. Not so much for the comentary element PAD mentioned up above, but it’s just a really intriguing concept storywise.
Also, if you really don’t like the idea of 9/11 happening in the MU…notice, it’s refered to a bit indirectly….so think of it as the Onslaught battle instead..or the Baxter Building blowing up..or Avengers disassembled…or whatever.
“Isn’t it possible to simply enjoy the story for what it was?”
>Sometimes, yes. However, as a fellow professional, I want to understand more than just enjoy. Especially as a fellow professional who aspires to just a sliver of Peter’s success.
>My mind doesn’t simply turn off when I’m being entertained.
Nor does mine. My intention was not to suggest turning off one’s mind. If I want that, I’ll reread my old Groo comics.
>And Peter asked for our input. I assumed he actually wanted that. He didn’t ask us to tell him how great he was after all. Peter hasn’t become Byrne, has he?
Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.
>When I’m finally published in a few months, I hope I get a tenth of the response he gets on his work, and I hope it’s just as forthcoming and honest.
I hope so as well, since feedback provides an opportunity for growth, regardless of whether or not there is agreement. What are you putting out, by the way?
>I hope I can learn from the input of even those I disagree with (speaking of this site). I want to understand everything I can about this medium, and that just won’t happen if we all stick our heads under rocks and numbly chant: “Oh, what perty pictures”.
Well Chip, I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that you simply look at the perty pictures…. and I believe that it is spelled “pikturs” at that point.
I guess that I read the story and simply assumed that Nightmare, like any other villain who has suffered defeat repeatedly, has learned, grown and assumed new techniques and schemes in order to obtain the goals that he seeks. Perhaps he hadn’t considered this plan during the time of the Nazis….. or maybe PAD is the first writer to come up with this story for the funny books. 😛
Fred
Hey PAD, did you alter this story when it was decided that Tempest Fugit would be part of the regular comic instead of a mini series?
Fred,
Didn’t mean to sound so confrontational. It wasn’t my intent, though it certainly sounded that way. The net sucks for communicating.
Seems like we are of like minds, but reacted differently to the issue.
My book is Terran Sandz. Diamond has it and should schedule it soon. You can see some of it at http://www.onyxcross.com.
Later,
Chip
” As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.”
Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.
PAD
I didn’t like this issue. Far too wordy, and the Nightmare thing has been done like 1,001 times before. Bringing 9/11 into it was very forced.
It was a mixed bag to me.
I was a bit disappointed by the “it was just a dream” aspect of the resolution, though I admit the nightmare island twist was a nice variation on it. I also was put at a disadvantage because I wasn’t sure of the status quo of Betty, or the current Bruce/Hulk relationship, or which personality was in control of Hulk, or whatever. But that’s not your fault, Peter. I just wish they put some type of page or blurb giving the rundown of the current status of everything.
But the revelation that the Hulk was around in Bruce’s noggin as early as his high school years was good, as was the near-bombing of the school. I also liked the revelation of how he hooked up with the military.
I too, wasn’t as receptive to the 9/11 references as they you might’ve liked, Peter. Not the fact that the event is acknowledged in the MU-I literally cried when I read that issue of ASM. I just didn’t think the way it was used here rang true. As someone said earlier, haven’t there been events in the MU that rivaled or surpassed 9/11 in a way that Nightmare could’ve used to make that island? I think a better idea might’ve been to say that Nightmare created a tiny stepping stool in the middle of the ocean with some really old event, like the San Francisco fires in the early 1900s (it has to be something that occurred during the age of global communication-so as to emphasize the point that only collective emotions of entire swaths of the human populace would have the necessary effect), and that it slowly grew over the decades with subsequent events like Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust, the invasion of Manhattan by aliens, Galactus and Namor, maybe the destruction of that Russian volcano by Magneto, the Rwandan genocide, the War in Bosnia, AND 9/11. Maybe 9/11 was the final event needed to make the island large enough or “real” enough for Nightmare’s purposes, and more recent events like the recent superstorm in Uncanny X-Men would add to its potency. I would’ve bought that. But the sole attribution of it to 9/11, by itself, didn’t ring true to me. I read your explanation of how 9/11 was different, but then I would’ve liked some line by Nightmare like, “Oh sure, there were others….lots…throughout all of history…but this one was different. It was all concentrated at one specific moment that happened in front of everyone’s eyes…it was quite unique in that regard.” This is just me, Peter.
By contrast, your BID column on 9/11, in which you mused what it might’ve been liked if 9/11 happened in a universe populated by Superman or Batman, was EXTREMELY POWERFUL, and I really wished someone had produced a comic based on that, given all the 9/11 tribute books the industry did.
And yeah, I too didn’t buy Magneto or Dr. Doom being there crying. Kingpin I could understand, but Magneto has probably killed far more humans (whom he does not see as his people) than the 3,000 who died on 9/11.
Peter David: A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Luigi Novi: Well no, since I was asleep when it happened, and woke up about an hour or so after it happened, and was quite lucid. My personal disbelief was in trying to comprehend that the “planes” they spoke of where not small single engine planes that have crashed into buildings like the Empire State Building before, but big jet liners, and that the “collapse” they spoke of did not refer to some small portion of the buildings, but to the entire things. I remember walking down to Hoboken that day, taking some shots from Frank Sinatra Boulevard, and wondering why I couldn’t see the towers through the smoke, thinking that I should’ve been able to see the tops of them. I was still not comprehending that the entire buildings were gone.
Don: While I appreciate your confidence that you put everything there with perfect delivery for the well-equipped reader to pick up, suggesting that it’s their failure (“sometimes fans disappoint me a little”) to think about it in a larger picture is a little misguided.
Peter David: Why? See, this is the basic hypocrisy of the internet. Fans thrive on having direct contact with their favorite writers, but balk at the notion that said contact should be a level playing field.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a reader or writer being “disappointed,” but I take issue when one says that the other “cant’ see the forest for trees, which I think makes it sound as if the quality of the story is somehow a foregone empirical conclusion, rather than a difference of opinion, or merely a matter of a writer and reader not having connected on the story. A level playing field means the reader might say they didn’t care for the story, and the writer might say, “Well, sorry you didn’t care for it, but I stand by it.” (This excludes the sort of rude trolling whereby a reader insists on seeing things in the story that weren’t there, or accusing the writer of having an intent or message in the story that he really didn’t.) I don’t think either side should accuse the other of “not getting it,” as I’ve been criticized at imdb for not caring for a particular movie, or of not seeing the forest for the trees.
I don’t think it’s a question of not getting your intentions (assuming that’s what you meant by not seeing the forest for the trees), but simply that I didn’t care for the idea as executed.
Sorry if I disappoint you, Peter. But it’s just one story, so don’t worry. I still love ya. 🙂
But I STILL can’t wait for your Spidey! Given your trademark humor, and Spidey’s trademark snideness when fighting the bad guys, I’m wondering why you haven’t gone back to the character earlier!
And btw, at Wikipedia, the entry for the Hulk once stated that you wrote the book for “almost I decade.” I corrected it, so that it now states you wrote it for almost twelve years.
Fred Chamberlain: Nope, however it seemed fair to respond to those who seemed fixated on the 911 reference. Fixated to the degree of missing the point of the story.
Luigi Novi: Again, I didn’t miss the point. I just didn’t care for it.
Nice work, Chip. The premise that opens the books is interesting, and the art has a nice minimalist, Ed McGuiness-like evocation to it. Good luck with it!
Thanks, Luigi. If you get a chance to see the full issue, I hope you’ll let me know what you think of it.
As far as the subject of this thread, you were far more eloquent than I. Nicely put.
Later,
Chip
>A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Count my hand.
I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn’t “let it be a nightmare” but “OK, we are all well and truly screwed” and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately …
>Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not.
Exactly.
> “hey, maybe you should have, oh, dunno, DONE SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?”
The timetable in the Marvel universe would have had to be different. Once the first plane hit, there would have been enough spandex around the initial crash site to help out that it would ensure the second could never hit even if they didn’t know the first wasn’t an accident – unless the second had hit at almost the exact same time as the first. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense.
> As far as the comic goes, quite frankly, World War II was considerably more horrorific than September 11. If WWII couldn’t get Nigthmare a foothold in our world, I don’t see how September 11 is going to.
Initial reaction was “if you mean the horror of Hiroshima/Nagasaki or the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden, yeah, you have a point” but then thought about it some more and, as Peter and others subsequently pointed out, these events weren’t broadcast live to hundreds of millions of people around the globe.
Mr. David – All in all a suitably ‘different’ story with lots of good points and all very worhtwhile, if only to see Bruce and Betty back together at some point. As was intimated in another of my posts recently [re – MJ and Peter], such relationships are often the only really good thing in an otherwise dismal existence for these characters and it bothers me when the authors feel a need to have that get screwed up, too. It may be like in real life, but there can be such a thing as too much reality here.
“Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.
PAD”
OK. I got it now. Thanks, Peter.
1There’s nothing in HULK #81 that comes out and says “Al Queda destroyed the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 and that’s what allowed Nightmare to create the island.” It’s strongly _implied_ but not explicitly stated. That would’ve required actually saying “9/11,” “Al Queda,” etc. That’s why I’m willing to let it slide, because in a New York City with the Avengers, the FF, etc., the WTC destruction would not have taken place.
I enjoyed the story. It’s nice to have PAD back writing Hulk stories. I did figure out that Nightmare was the villain early on (that one panel with the hand with long fingernails did it) though I forgot that he rides a dark horse.
Great art by Weeks and Palmer.
I am a bit put off by Banner being shown to have been so mentally disturbed in high school. It doesn’t entirely jibe with earlier stories — we’ve never seen a scene where Banner thinks “The Hulk? They’re calling the monster ‘the Hulk’? That was the name of the monster that taunted me!” or anything like that.
Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place…please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed – among other recent events, and there was an issue of “Rom” years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died. Just chalk it up to the heroed were doing something else that day, enjoy stories like JMS’ and PAD’s and move on.
Chip,
Enjoyed your observations and good luck with your book.
What I found interesting is that this is the second time since I first started reading Hulk comics that Nightmare has been messed with the Hulk’s mind.
What I don’t find interesting is the constant muddling of the Hulk origin. Frankly, I’m sick to death of the idea of Bruce Banner being a troubled soul with a tormented childhood getting hammered into the readership in nearly every issue (I’m exaggerating of course). Bad enough we get that from the Batman comics, but the Hulk?
As a fan, I’d like to see the Hulk rebooted to where it’s just the gamma bomb that created him (again) and we can forget all about this MPD/I-blame-my-father nonsense.
PAD: “Because there was no one moment in WWII–not even the attack on Pearl Harbor–that was on mainland soil and unfolded simultaneously before the eyes of millions upon millions upon millions of disbelieving Americans as it was happening.”
But isn’t the notion as to [u]why[/u] this gave such a shock even scarier? It wasn’t so much a blow to the collective conscience of caring about human lives, it was a blow to a sense of elevate, unassailable all-encompassing arrogance of ‘being above and more worth than the rest of the world’ which few other civilised countries come close to match. The geographical isolation has had a lot of nasty side-effects affecting the public conscience, creating an ‘us’ against ‘them’ mentality instead of ‘we’re all in this together’. I mean even a far back as WWII the republicans stopped every motion from Roosewelt to enter the conflict and put a stop to the horrors until it became apparent that, despite the sea, America wasn’t completely unassailable. It became an interference of self-interest rather than altruism, which is a kind of creepy thought. In comparison Europe is a lot more connected and affected by other people’s conflicts so we have less dulled down sense of empathy towards other people. It seemed more like america was shocked due to the unusual feeling of being upset about [u]anything[/u] due to being more personally affected. In comparison we’re a lot more used to the thought that disaster could strike close to home and get so many detailed reports from disaster-zones such as Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Indonesia… which made that particular humanitarian aspect almost feel trivial in comparison. Not to mention the people who live with monthly or even weekly rates of death of that magnitude. Africa, Asia or the Middle-East would have a very hard time to empathise, given that they’ve been victims to horrors partially encouraged by ourselves for a very long time. Reagan outfitted Saddam with weapons in the conflict with Iran in the first place and that resulted in round 2 million deaths following it. Many people still like to believe that the conflict in Vietnam was carried out in an acceptable way despite 1 million local deaths and support of a corrupted dictator (that’s not to say the opposing side was any better of course) to avoid getting rid of fanatic national pride instead of putting priority on people not nations. The level of deaths indirectly created by the western world and US in particular has been of a staggering effect, but the difference between US and European citisens is that we at least get a more thorough investigation of them and don’t seem nearly as dulled off.
Starwolf: “I came in just as the second plane hit and the reality [not an accident but a deliberate act] hit simultaneously. My immediate reaction wasn’t “let it be a nightmare” but “OK, we are all well and truly screwed” and in the people in power will use this to trample on rights faster than you can say 1984. I wish THAT part was just a nightmare. Unfortunately …”
Yeah, that was my immediate reaction as well. ‘Oh šhìŧ, this will loosen all kinds better left burried tensions and self-righteous bloodthirst from both sides, which the skillful will take advantage of and inflame. Just how far will this go?’ Was my initial thought. The tsunami-disaster occured in front of my eys as well and had far more of an immediate shock regarding the amount of lives lost.
A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
That would be me, which I’m sure has a lot to do with the fact that I’m English (and have never been to the USA). Don’t get me wrong – it was a bad thing, and I sympathise with everyone who was affected by it. However, I grew up hearing about the IRA blowing things up, and this initially seemed like more of the same. I’d never heard of Al Queda before that, and I was only dimly aware of the Twin Towers, so when I saw the news on a website (“buildings destroyed, 6 people known to be dead”) it just wasn’t that much of a shock. Obviously the death toll turned out to be rather higher than that, but I just found out the extra information gradually, so there was no one moment of “Oh my god!” for me.
More generally, I remember one of PAD’s early Hulk stories, about a woman who’s attacked by a serial killer, and says something like “Now I’m one of the ‘other people’ that these things only ever happen to”. And I get the impression (although I could be wrong) that lots of Americans had the same attitude towards terrorism – i.e. it’s just something that happens in other countries, which meant that the event had much more of an impact.
As for the latest issue of Hulk overall, honestly I’d have to say that it didn’t really grab me much. i’m sure it will work better if I re-read the whole storyline in one go, but as it was my memory of previous issues is a bit hazy. Any chance of getting recap pages again, like “Thunderbolts” is doing? And as part of that, I was a bit confused by what had actually happened. So, I’m happy to keep reading new issues, but this didn’t make any great impression on me.
One minor nitpick – when Nightmare went through his sequence of fake identities, how do we actually know that the final one was the real one? It seems that we only have Daydream’s word for it, and since most of the creatures on the island were under the villain’s control, that’s not entirely conclusive… In a way, this reminds me of the “Smoke and Mirrors” Spider-man storyline (back during the Clone Saga), where the Jackal kept giving misinformation, and I wound up saying “Fine, whatever, I’m not going to believe any of it until I see real proof”. That said, I don’t have any strong feelings about Nightmare as a villain, so I’m not fussed about whether he really was the one behind this whole thing or not.
——-
You know…sometimes fans disappoint me a little. Here, and elsewhere, people are involved in discussing whether 9/11 fits into the Marvel universe.
I wrote the sequence–including Nightmare’s speech–because I wanted the story to have real world resonance. A show of hands, please: How many people, in watching the Towers collapse, did NOT think, “Dear God, please, make it all a nightmare, let me wake up now.”
Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not. It has been insanely difficult to get ANY sort of traction on day-to-day existence while the reasons for this country’s actions shift faster than the average dreamscape.
And the notion that a lord of a nightmare realm used the most traumatic event in this country’s recent history to establish a permanent beachfront of uncertainty in the hearts and minds of humanity would–I’d have hoped–leave readers nodding and saying, “Well, there’s as accurate a commentary on modern times as I’ve read lately.”
Instead the forest goes unseen for the trees.
PAD
————-
*puts hand up*
I’ve been trying for days to work out a way of pointing this out, but Paul O’Brien’s done it for me now:
——————–
http://thexaxis.com/capsules/29May05.htm
I’m also underwhelmed by the presentation of 9/11 as an event so shockingly unique in human history that it allows Nightmare to get a foothold in the real world for the first time. Don’t get me wrong – 9/11 is horrible, of course, but it’s scarcely unique. It just happens to be an atrocity which has particular emotional resonance for Americans. And that’s fair enough, but let’s keep it in perspective. Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It’s an attitude of “This happened to us, so it counts more”. Perhaps it works for Americans, but it certainly doesn’t work for me.
———–
I’m not American, and I didn’t watch TV thinking “let this be a dream” and don’t know anyone who did.
Paul’s criticism seems to be that it’s Amero-centric, and I guess that’s a legitimate reason for him as a non-American to dislike it… but shouldn’t it be expected that writing will reflect the world view of the writer? I mean, I read comics from British writers and see a very British POV in them, but that’s par for the course.
PAD, I think I am misreading you considering your defense of World War II not being enough to establish Nightmare a foothold in our world, but would it be a reasonable interpretation to say that what gave Nightmare the foothold following 9/11 was the collective refusal by a large portion of the American people to accept reality and instead yearn for a supposedly happier deception from their leaders?
I am astonished that a large number of people who I would guess would be in agreement with your politics are not seeing how your portrayal of Nightmare is showing your agreement with them.
“Are we really saying it came as more of a shock to the Americans than Hiroshima did to the Japanese (to pick the first example that springs to mind)? Because in order for the story to work, you kind of have to say that. Which is irritatingly parochial, to be frank. It’s an attitude of “This happened to us, so it counts more”.”
No, it’s really not that at all, and I find the comment extremely offensive.
No one is denying mankind’s long history of committing atrocities, one upon the other.
However, if Paul O’Brien or anyone for that matter would like to trot out a previous instance of a single act of war (upon a people who weren’t at war and were thus caught completely off-guard) unfolding real time, as millions upon millions watched…in a scenario that involved neither bombs nor bullets, but instead a scenario so much the stuff of fiction that it had shown up in an episode of “Lone Gunmen”…then I would very much like them to trot it out.
9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don’t work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it’s damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.
To try and dismiss that as “parochial,” or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I’m just a dumb-ášš xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.
PAD
The more I think about it, the more I think that it takes monumental effort to miss the point of Nightmare’s speech. To come back with, “Oh, but wasn’t Hiroshima traumatic?” “Oh, but what about this disaster or that disaster?”
I re-read the speech, and my God, how can ANYONE misinterpret it to the degree that I’m seeing? It’s RIGHT THERE:
“A domain that I was able to establish several years ago, one fine September morning, when the line between reality and fantasy irrevocably blurred. It was remarkable. Countless people, watching in shared horror, over and over again, rubbing the sleep from their eye, gazing in stupefaction…thinking that they were watching a scene ripped from fiction. As if disaster movies had crossed into the realm of actuality, fantasy given substance.”
It’s not simply that lots of people died. It’s not simply that it was traumatic. It’s not just that it happened to us (I mean, really, you really, really missed the point if you think that was my reasoning.) It’s that it really, really DID blur the line between fantasy and reality for the whole of human consciousness in a way that no event I can think of previously ever did. And when that line was blurred to such a huge degree, at EXACTLY THE SAME MOMENT FOR MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF HUMANS, it caused a sea-change in the way we perceived the world around us and Nightmare slipped through.
And since then, lies and deception and confusion as to who’s alive, who’s dead, and whose war is justified or unjustified, is our every day existence. So we live day to day, trying to figure out what to believe, what not to believe, and what parts of our recent history are true and accurate and which aren’t.
Anyone who wants to write that off as some simplistic “Peter David’s just retconning some recent Hulk stories” is welcome to do so. But, again…point hugely missed.
PAD
PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.
“PAD: I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.”
It was shocking, certainly, but assassinations are simply nothing new…especially considering the President had been assassinated shortly before. Certainly not enough, I would think, to blur the border between reality and fantasy.
PAD
The only thing that would probably come even REMOTELY close would be the Challenger disaster, and even that can’t really stack up against the whole world watching the Twin Towers fall on every television channel, radio station, and on the internet, in real time.
-Rex Hondo-
PAD: Again, not disagreeing with you, but as I believe the URL I included shows, the television coverage following the assassination of JFK is in my opinion the equal of the coverage from all media following 9/11. To quote the article, “In truth, as much as the Kennedy assassination itself, the on-air murder of the president’s alleged assassin creates an almost vertiginous imbalance in televiewers, a sense of American life out of control and let loose from traditional moorings.”
The closest analogy to “where were you when 9/11” occurred is almost certainly “where were you when JFK was shot.”
PAD: Sorry, the URL is:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/K/htmlK/kennedyjf/kennedyjf.htm
John P.”
> I am not disagreeing with you, but another live television moment when your version of Nightmare could have infiltrated our world was when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald.
My impression from reading quotes from many people and even talking with relatives who were around at the time was that the immediate response of many was “Good, the $#%@#% got what was coming to him.”. This was, of course, before everyone began to consider the many implications of that act and began to realize all of the unanswered questions that Oswald’s death would leave.
Fred
Peter,
You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn’t. Since I’m fairly certain this isn’t the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don’t.
Getting flustered with those of us that didn’t, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn’t do much to indear you in our eyes— or my eyes, at least. Granted, I’m only one reader, and you’ve earned thousands upon thousands uon thousands, so who gives a crap if I decide to bale on your future work? I collect to be entertained or to learn, not to be told I’m stupid.
You did your best. Lay off the reader, and continue doing what you do so well.
Later,
Chip
“You wrote it. Some people got it. Some people didn’t. Since I’m fairly certain this isn’t the first time this has happened to you (or any other writer for that matter), you should know by now that you really are wasting your time. Some bits connect. Some bits don’t.”
Oh, I know that. Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity. Some of the best work of my life is stuff that the bulk of fans either didn’t bother to purchase or read and just shrugged and said, “I don’t get it.”
“Getting flustered with those of us that didn’t, and blaming it on our supposed failings, doesn’t do much to indear you in our eyes— or my eyes, at least.”
Well, number one, I wasn’t flustered. I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things, and I was pìššëd øff because I’m essentially being accused of being indifferent to the loss of lives in other countries during wartime simply because they’re not Americans, or thinking that American lives are more important. Apparently some reviewers are oblivious to the fact that people of all nationalities died that day in those towers…it was called “World” for a reason, and that–to my mind–was part of the world-wide impact that it had. To sit there and say that it’s simply an American thing denotes far more conservative nationalism than anything remotely expressed in the comic.
As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic? Not only should I simply nod my head when I think people mischaracterize me or my work, but I should also carefully weigh whether I should express my opinion against business considerations. I mean, there ARE people out there who do that. Who are very circumspect in everything they say or do publicly because they don’t want to risk offending potential readers.
Me, I think I prefer to say what I think.
PAD
“Sometimes I think the measure of the quality of my work should be in inverse proportion to its popularity.”
Isn’t that the case for alot of artists? Even at my day job, the designs I feel are the most original, effective and innovative are all but ignored next to the formulaic (sp?) crap my bosses prefer.
“I was disappointed because I felt some people focused on the wrong things…”
Potatoe, patatoe (or however the heck it’s spelled). But I think I know what you mean. But I think even that is a common occurence for someone like you who has, what, a billion readers. You still don’t change any minds berating or arguing with your few decentors.
“As for endearing myself to people, I get this comment all the time. The notion that I should basically watch what I say because, hey, it could cost me readers. Am I supposed to be that craven now? That politic?”
I think this too is a difference of perspective. I love this medium, but view it as a business to put food on the table. I don’t argue with those who don’t get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the “costumer is always right” model of business; second, it’s a bloody waste of time. I’ve never changed a mind, and I don’t recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I’d rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it’ll be well recieved.
But, you know, your success more than qualifies that you know what your doing, so this is little more than an IMO moment.
Tanks for the discussion. I enjoy this stuff.
Later,
Chip
“I don’t argue with those who don’t get my work for two reasons: first, I adhere to the “costumer is always right” model of business; second, it’s a bloody waste of time. I’ve never changed a mind, and I don’t recall giants like you or Byrne doing so either, so I’d rather not alienate, and just do what I do, hoping it’ll be well recieved.”
Well, first of all, the customer isn’t always right. Very frequently, the customer is dead wrong. Stan used to point out, when the customers would deluge him with letters begging for all of Peter Parker’s problems to be solved, that if he did that, Peter would no longer be interesting. And he was right.
And which customers are we talking about? The customers who say I should be writing stuff that’s new and different? The customers who refuse to purchase anything of mine new and different?
I fully understand that the customer is “always right” (at the risk of sounding like Obi-Wan) from a certain point of view. Essentially, everyone is right in their own opinion.
But I’m not a retailer out to sell hand cream or capri pants, determined to play to the buyer’s vanity by assuring them that, hëll yes, those black stretch pants absolutely make their áššëš look remarkably slim when, in fact, they should stay away from the seashore since their butts are going to affect the tides no matter what color they’re wearing.
I’m a writer. I try to make people think about things they haven’t considered before, not massage their egos or assure them that they’re always right. You know the customer isn’t always right. I know it too. It’s a lie. A convenient excuse for shrugging and smiling. I neither shrug nor smile, and I do not give up. Ever.
To say that you think it’s a waste of time and that you’ve never changed someone’s mind shows, to me, two things. First, you set the bar for achievement way too low.
And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs…a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren’t changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.
And I’ll take that. I’ll take that.
You know the difference between you and me, Chip? The way I see it…I’m Johnny Appleseed. You’re the guy behind the register selling fruit.
PAD
“…I’m Johnny Appleseed. You’re the guy behind the register selling fruit.”
Very funny. You should be a writer.
I prefer discussion over beratement. As I think this discussion illustrates, I don’t just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions. Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you’re full of crap. At least for me, I’ve learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum.
You push my buttons and keep me on my toes. I enjoy that.
There’s no price tag on those apples, by the way, sir. Perhaps if you brought me a bag you hadn’t smashed to a pulp, sir.
Later,
Chip
“I prefer discussion over beratement.”
Can’t we do both?
Seriously, I don’t feel as if I was berating you. I think I made a logical series of observations based upon your own words. If you don’t like where the conclusion went, well…maybe you weren’t well-served by the sentiment you expressed.
“As I think this discussion illustrates, I don’t just shrivel up in front of a discussion of differing opinions.”
Okay, but since that was never at issue, I’m not sure why you’re mentioning it.
“Your opinion is as valid as mine, even if I think you’re full of crap. At least for me, I’ve learned more from keeping my mind open, and my attitude at a minimum.”
So you say. But saying one has an open mind doesn’t give them any kind of moral superiority to one who has strong opinions. There are certain things I have an open mind about, and certain things about which I’ve made up my mind. If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn’t know his mind about any things. And although you contend now that you think I’m full of crap, a year, two years from now…you may realize I was right. So I’ll take those odds.
PAD
Actually, I never said you were full of crap, OR that I was morally superior. I said “even IF…”.
At least from my vantage point, I can be both confident in my strong opinions AND open minded.
And as far as the berating thing…
After re-reading the posts, I agree (except for the cashier jockey comment— if I used emoticons, I’d have a wink here), you weren’t berating. Challenging, yes. Berating, no. I especially like the level playing field comment.
We’ll agree to disagree on the issue this thread is about. Unless you want to challenge the thinking of my original, issue-based comments…
Still dreamin’ of more Fallen Angel.
Thanks for the exchange,
Chip
1
>>And second, you seem to have little comprehension of how human opinion works. Epiphanies are convenient fictional constructs…a protagonist or antagonist being faced with something they never considered before and they immediately reorient their thinking. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Opinions aren’t changed instantaneously, any more than planting a seed instantly results in a tree. Same thing: Seeds of thought are planted, and sometimes the ground is infertile and inhospitable, but sometimes they take root. And a year, two years later, someone is viewing things in a very different way.
–Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you’ve studied some aspects of human nature in your time.
But seriously…….
Will we be seeing more of the HORSE?
PAD,
I agree with the comments you have made on this thread more than any I can remember. While sometimes I feel you get a LITTLE too hot, that is not the case at all this time. Particularly your reaction to the “Customer is always right” comment. Yes, the customer is often dead wrong.As you say, who are you supposed to assume is right, those who want you to write the way they’re used to or those who want you to try different things.
Two examples that immediately spring to mind are :
A.) Readers at the time surely would have voted to keep Gwen Stacy alive three decades ago. But her death was one of the most powerful Spidey stories of all time and was a true watershed moment for the character. It allowed Peter Parker to grow and still has resonance to this day.
B.) Star Trek fans, if given a vote, likely would not have let Spock die in “Wrath of Khan”; they would have brought back the old crew instead of launching “Next Generation”; they would not have had peace with the Klingons or had one in Starfleet. Yet these and many other developments allowed the Trek mythos to grow and prosper.
Finally,”If one has an open mind about all things, then one doesn’t know his mind about any things.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
PAD: 9/11 was a nightmare scenario that was previously the stuff of Jerry Bruckheimer movies and Chris Carter shows. Since then we live in a world characterized by our leaders freely rewriting history whenever the previous deceptions don’t work, and no one knows whether to take warnings of danger seriously or not, and all the while it’s damaged global relationships thanks to gargantuan credibility issues.
Yeah, that’s pretty much my understanding as well. Many people get the concepts of warranted intervention or one carried out due to lots of veils and excuses mixed up. I’m personally pro-intervention, but the motivations and means used must be pure.
PAD: To try and dismiss that as “parochial,” or to act as if I think the deaths of the people at the WTC is more important than the deaths of the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because, hey, I’m just a dumb-ášš xenophobic American, right?, is staggeringly insulting.
I didn’t mean to come across that way, so I’m sorry and apologise if I did and offended you. You’ve always seemed like an extremely ethical fellow on top of being one of my favourite writers.
My viewpoint in the replies (to stimulate me into a musing mood can be a bad idea) wasn’t intended to be seen as you personally not caring. I actually liked the powerful poetic notion of reality and dream getting blurred, even if I’m still caught up in the fact tat you’re actually back on the book and very curious about that.
However, from an outsider perspective you do eventually get to view the mechanics of american society and public mindset as a whole in a certain way when it’s seemingly consistently easily manipulated into ruthless self-righteousness due to national pride and comparatively minor incidents, while those in the big world outside go left unnoticed.
On the other hand the recent tsunami-disaster had us citisens more informed, worried and caring about people at large than I’ve ever seen them, so I see some very positive development as well. In that respect at least the incident may have served as a wake-up call? Oh well, rambling alert. All the best in any case. I hope my previous lack of eloquence didn’t sour you on somehow addressing the questions raised in the first two posts. :\
In an attempt to clarify: It’s more about the concept itself of ‘Why would such a comparatively ‘minor’ incident be able to create such an all-encompassing self-explaining urge for paranoid defence at all costs when much bigger events don’t?’. The effect of blurred lines has become apparent and I had a strong suspicion about a lot of people trying to use it that way right from the start, but _how_ could it have such a profound impact?
It does fit into a theme of perceived elevated and apart position from the rest of the World and somehow already sufficiently developed superior ethical standards, which give a higher right without need for further learning and input. Regardless that the corruption and violence quota or general humanitarian issues compared to other countries may warrant a serious look-over until considering that the standards may not be set high enough. The _fundaments themselves_ for this incident to have such a profound shock and enormous consequences as it did do indeed seem to be built on a large dose of xenophobia, arrogant pride and jingoistic entitlement. That’s not to generalise far too much and say that this is somehow an all-encompassing trait, but it seems very present in a lot of people. There’s a big difference between recognising that and somehow uniformly directing ‘inherited guilt’ through association as a mere citizen though. You’re definitely not a xenophobe or uncaring about other people. I didn’t at all take it that way before I somehow got stimulated into entering this discussion (which wasn’t exactly what I originally had in mind when intending to give you praise for the new run, but I consistently seem to let curiousity and impulse get the better of me) and I didn’t mean to imply it. On the other hand on the surface itwould seem that this kind of severe widespread reaction should be provoked by far more large-scale incidents than a couple of terrorists showing their complete lack of weapons resources by hijacking two planes and using them as weapons. Oh well, even more rambling, but I hope I made it a bit clearer.
–“Peter, do you have a degree in psychology or something? Or have you just *really* paid attention to people over the years? The insight into the human psyche seems to indicate that you’ve studied some aspects of human nature in your time.”
I read a bunch of psych texts and books on human development when I first started writing the Hulk years ago. A lot of it stayed with me, plus I think most writers are observers of human nature.
PAD
PAD: “Every day since then, moreso than ever, we’ve questioned what’s real and what’s not, what’s lies and what’s not, what’s made up and what’s not.”
To steal from an old joke, that’s easy — you can tell when you’re being lied to when George W. Bush’s lips move. 🙂
–R.J.
Well,
I haven’t really had the patience to read through all of the comments on this thread, and I know I’m pretty late, so maybe someone has already pointed this out, but, from the posts I did read, I guess people who complain about PAD’s use of 9/11 in Hulk #81 aren’t focusing on the main argument behind this specific plot point. Most readers apparently see it as a cheap bridge between the world of fiction and the real world, but, to me, that’s missing the point entirely.
To me, this is a classic comics moment, because it goes way beyond the events of 11/09. Maybe I can say that unashamed because I’m not American, and, sure, the terrorist attacks have a different meaning for most of the other readers on this blog than it does for me, but the fact is Nightmare’s speech is not (only) about that specific day.
The whole thing is about a different way of life, a different vision of the world, one that had been forming long before that took place. And those events simply accelerated and solidified this new perception of the world, as we now have it, not as individuals, but as a collectivity.
The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don’t know exactly what you can trust as the ‘truth’. The very definition of ‘truth’ has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. You could argue the notion of ‘one reality’ doesn’t even exist anymore, and it’s being replaced by individual realities.
I mean, speaking specifically of the 9/11 events, it has a different meaning across the world, depending on where you stand, geographically. I can mourn the death of thousands caused by an act of insanity, but I can’t feel threatened or disillusioned as an American did that day. The same way someone who lives in LA has experienced it differently from a NY resident, so on and so forth.
We live in a different world now than when these rigid notions of truth and reality were created. It may be disheartening to some people to see how these perceptions may have become individualistic through the years, but, to me, that’s exactly the beauty of PAD’s idea: it’s not just a comment on one specific real-life event, but more of a comment on a new social, collective arrangement.
Anyway, this post is a pretty shallow attempt at a much deeper and more critical subject than my words would make one believe. Still, I felt I had to say that I love how PAD analyses the way the Western civilization has been restructuring itself for the past years.
By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back… or perhaps even the best use ever. The dialogue in the book is pretty self-explanatory as to why it makes so much sense, so I won’t waste time explaining it all over again.
This is meaningful comics, so thanks PAD.
Oh, sorry for the crappy English, but, again, I’m not American.
Cheers
“Okay, first, for those who feel that in the Marvel Univers, something like 9/11 would not have taken place…please get over it. In comics, Genosha has been destroyed – among other recent events, and there was an issue of ‘Rom’ years back that had assorted heroes failing to stop a HUGE flood in Canada and thousands appeared to have died.”
Just saying… the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes live neither in Genosha nor Canada…. so your examples are really stupid and quite irrelevent. They live in the same city as the place that was destroyed.
Aside from that, we could or could not assume at our leisure that the bulk of the Marvel Super Heroes were busy during 9/11/1 or they actually stopped the attack. Either way, ASM #36 was not canonical.
I have no opinion about the story; I raise my hand.
Are all of PAD’s Hulk issues still canonical?
“The fact is that you have an overwhelming flow of information and you don’t know exactly what you can trust as the ‘truth’. The very definition of ‘truth’ has been distorted, lost, reworked to serve purposes whenever anyone needed to. “
I would of course argue that the lack of information in days gone by made it much easier to manipulate people, while those with high-level analytical skills can now at least pick up different resources and form a pattern. Pf course that takes energy most people can’t aware… Still I’m swedish. Along with Norway I live in one of the two by far least corrupted, most humanitarian society on Earth if the statitics are to be believed. We’re not used to almost anyone in either the press or the government having anything less than noble ideals driving them, so the notion of complete distrust for any form of information creating conflict in a severely biased pattern is hard to relate to except at an abstract level and through experience of talking to a few hundred seemingly thoroughly evil nutcases online.
“By the way, I believe PAD made the best use of Nightmare as a character since the villain drove Hulk crazy way back… or perhaps even the best use ever. “
Ditto on that. I remember him used well during the arc around the Secret Wars, Mark Waid’s Captain America run and this (but I haven’t read much Doctor Strange so what do I know?)
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