Went to Ariel’s school concert last night. Unlike other school systems where specifics of the season are being meticulously expunged, here they actually sing Christmas songs (along with, of all things, a medley from “Fiddler.”) I find that preferable. I think inclusive is always preferable to exclusive. What kind of message are schools sending kids if they effectively stick their heads in the sand and try to ignore all signs of the holidays.
Also, as a Jew, I have to say I don’t understand how it’s possible for the “true meaning” of Christmas to be lost. Yesterday, as I went to the post office to buy a $5 money order and encountered fifteen people on line, each juggling half a dozen packages…or when a local strip mall where I buy groceries had no parking places because it was choked with holiday buyers…or when street after street, normally easy driving, was clogged with traffic…in short, when even the simplest errand took forever, I cannot tell you the number of times I shouted, “Jeeeeesus Chriiiiist.”
PAD
• 
I grew up in a predominantly jewish neighborhood (My friends referred to me as the token christian.) I remember in school concerts we would alternate Chrismtas songs and jewish songs.
A few years ago here in Virginia (two years? last year?) a jewish family tried to sue their town because of a ceremony where one of the firemen would dress up as Santa Clause and light a christmas tree in the town square. That was just rediculous.
This reminds me of the “Bill Cosby: Himself” show where he says that until the age of 10, he thought his name was Jesus Christ. “Jesus Christ, will you get in here!”
Out daughter had a Christmas (er, holiday) concert last week. There was a good mix of all holidays this year, which I appreciated. The best was the “Silent Night” sung first in English, then German, then in Sign Language. They must have had so much fun learning to do that.
It was a big improvement over last year’s where the only mention of Christmas was a parody song. It seemed odd that all the other faiths and traditions had serious music, but Christmas was treated less so. I didn’t say anything, but this year felt more inclusive.
This is why I usually do my Christmas shopping already in November and even then, we ordered most items on the Internet. Especially with DVDs, the price differences are incredible sometimes!
Nevertheless, we had some last minute posting to do and of course, the supermarket shopping. Going shopping with my husband is difficult at the best of times: He hates it, especially crowds, and when I want to stop and look at something he is already somewhere else and I have to find him.
Only very recently a reporter asked shopping couples and hating shopping and crowds seems to be a male thing 🙂
I don`t mind it so much. I take my time and even enjoy the festive decorations and displays.
I’m a firm believer that Christmas doesn’t begin until after the Thanksgiving turkey has been digested. I don’t even think about holiday shopping until mid-December. If that makes me a “last minute shopper,” so be it.
On a related note, I’m going to bìŧçh-šláp the next person who whines and complains that Christmas is being ruinned because clerks at Macy’s are saying “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” or that Target isn’t allowing the Salvation Army to solicit in front of their stores.
If you’re letting retailers dictate your Christmas celebrations, it’s no wonder you can’t remember the “true meaning” of the holiday.
Uh, Den? How does “bìŧçh-šláppìņg” someone fit in with the Holiday Spirit? =)
Maybe if it’s done with one of those big, fluffy mittens some of us up here in the frigid (wait, it’s Tuesday…that means we’re a balmy 32 today, as opposed to yesterday’s truly frigid 10) ok, cool midwest wear at time.
My wife and I braved the post-Thanksgiving day crowds. I knew it was going to be bad when there was a LINE JUST TO GET A CART. I’m not kidding.
Now I hear there are 50% sales again. Good thing we’re already broke.
I totally agree with you Peter. I’d be more than happy to hear my kids sing “O Hannukah” followed by “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen” finishing up with “Winter Wonderland” at the end-of-year concert. The best way to engender tolerance of each other is to de-mystify it. Ignoring its existence is going to make our children LESS tolerant, and more prone to bigotry (even subconsciously) in the future.
Re: “Jeeeeeeeeeeeesus Chriiiiiiist”. Haven’t we heard this joke before?
As for the whole “Happy Holidays”/”Merry Christmas” bit, I would have thought that conservatives (the ones making the most noise out of this issue) would be glad to let individuals and businesses make whatever choices they want on this matter, without anyone else’s outside interference. I don’t even care if the schools’ holiday pagents have songs about Christmas and Jesus or not, as long as it’s not an attempt to proselytize folks — there’s a lot of gradiation between singing “Silent Night” in a mixed-traditions program and setting up a nativity scene with a banner reading “Jesus is the reason for the season.” Pity the folks doing the complaining prefer to see things in black-and-white terms.
–R.J.
Uh, Den? How does “bìŧçh-šláppìņg” someone fit in with the Holiday Spirit? =)
You’ve never spent the holidays with my family. 🙂
As for the whole “Happy Holidays”/”Merry Christmas” bit, I would have thought that conservatives (the ones making the most noise out of this issue) would be glad to let individuals and businesses make whatever choices they want on this matter, without anyone else’s outside interference.
The conservative movement in this country has abandoned it’s old position of limited government/individual liberties. Now they just want to ram their vision of America down everyone else’s throats in the name of “traditional values.”
Agreed with pretty much everyone — the school where I teach tries to err on the side of being inclusive, and usually succeeds. I’ve no problem hearing choral music from a bunch of different faiths — heck, one of the favorite things I ever heard a previous school’s choral group do was a piece called “Bethelehemu”, which while Christian-themed is Nigerian in origin and mega-cool.
TWL
in short, when even the simplest errand took forever, I cannot tell you the number of times I shouted, “Jeeeeesus Chriiiiist.”
PAD, just wanted you to know that I now have to repent in sack cloth and ashes because you made me laugh at your taking the Lord’s name in vain (from a Christian perspective, of course). Should have seen the punch line coming. I will not laugh at PAD’s jokes. I will not laugh at PAD’s jokes. I will not laugh (long) at PAD’s jokes. . .
Jim in Iowa
Growing up, I went to an Episcopal school. Through many years of lower school, my mom would come in and do a show and tell about Chanukah, pass out latkes, teach how to play dradel..that kind of stuff. A bringing together of the religions to teach and learn.
Generaly, I don’t like when people get their panties in a bunch over Christmas displays. They can often be nice, and frankly, there’s more important stuff to worry about then a Christmas tree in the town square. And when someone wishes me a “Merry Christmas” I take it as an expression of well meaning, not of some attempt to push their heretical beliefs on me.
That said, what I’ve never understood, is why do Christians insist on being insensitive to others, especialy at the time they’ve co-opted for their savior’s birth? The lack of understanding why your city’s government displaying Christian symbolism might be upsetting to others (not to mention against the law) is mind boggling. Putting your wants and desires ahead of others hardly seems to be in the spirit of Jesus’ teachings.
On a related note, I’m going to bìŧçh-šláp the next person who whines and complains that Christmas is being ruinned because clerks at Macy’s are saying “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” or that Target isn’t allowing the Salvation Army to solicit in front of their stores.
As a member of the horrible religious conservative right, let me respond.
First, the issue this year is *not* that some are saying “Happy Holidays,” it is that some employees are being told they will be fired if they say “Merry Christmas.” If someone was an atheist (or Muslim, or Buddhist, or whatever) and did not want to say “Merry Christmas,” no employer should make them do so. At the same time, if an employee is a Chrisitan, or simply recognizes that the vast majority of Americans are at least nominally Christians, and wants to say “Merry Christmas,” they should not be worried that they will be reprimanded for doing so. I don’t get bent out of shape if someone says “Happy Holidays” and I don’t correct them. I don’t get bent out of shape if they were to tell me Happy Hanukkah. But if someone tells me they are under orders to NOT say “Merry Christmas,” then I get bent out of shape.
In regards to the Salvation Army, it again does not ruin my Christmas. But it literally could have an impact on the Christmas of others less fortunate. The Salvation Army is rated as one of the best charities of getting the highest percentage of what is given to the people who are in need. While Target does give some to the community, their decision has an enormous impact on those in greatest need. I find their decision short sighted, and it has nothing ultimately to do with Christmas, etc.
Jim in Iowa
I lived for a couple years in the South.
One of the local Manger displays had the 3 wise men dressed in fireman suits. I asked why and was told:
“Well, I heard that they came from afar.”
they should not be worried that they will be reprimanded for doing so. I don’t get bent out of shape if someone says “Happy Holidays” and I don’t correct them.
See, this would make you one of those gems of conservative religious beliefs – primarily, sane. Unfortunately, a lot of people with conservative religious beliefs aren’t sane (well, a lot of people with any sort of strong belief could be painted such, but I digress…)
I understand the May company’s position on instructing employees to not say “Merry Christmas;” all it would take is for one group of not-Christian customers to file a lawsuit, and the company would be in a world of hurt. Basically, it seems like the company is preemptively following the rules that have come down over the years on what kind of holiday displays schools can have, which seems to boil down to: inclusive good, exclusive bad, nothing good.
Since the department store chain isn’t going to go for the nothing good approach, they’re going for the inclusive; although people might be offended by hearing “Happy Holidays,” they can’t really say anything about religious discrimination or exclusion.
So yeah, basically, the May company is just protecting its bottom line in our overly-litigious (I’m sure I spelled that wrong) society.
Personally, I think it would be great if everyone could see that all religions have a holiday during this time of year, and recognize that there is something about the dead of winter and longest nights that makes people want/need some sort of celebration. I say celebrate ’em all, and hope that the good will, hope, and peace engineered by the season (no matter what flavour of the season you believe in), can extend to the rest of the year.
-Kelly, idealistically
That said, what I’ve never understood, is why do Christians insist on being insensitive to others, especialy at the time they’ve co-opted for their savior’s birth? The lack of understanding why your city’s government displaying Christian symbolism might be upsetting to others (not to mention against the law) is mind boggling. Putting your wants and desires ahead of others hardly seems to be in the spirit of Jesus’ teachings.
Sometimes it’s the opposite happening. For example, the recent “Holiday of Lights” in Denver allowed groups from all over town – except Christians – to contribute a float for the festival. Why the exclusion of just that faith?
Also, government recognition of faith is not an endorsement of it. That’s why Christmas can be a federal holiday, but not be an endorsement of Christianity. If recognition were a problem, then the city of Denver is violating the principle by allowing Native American dance during the proceedings.
Just wondering…what kind of sales banner is Macy’s going to use starting Sunday, Dec. 26? Will it be a Post-Holiday sale or a Post-Christmas sale?
I work retail, and yesterday after getting off of work, as the day went on I could see myself making headlines by the end of the week. One of the biggest problems is that people tend to forget the jollier side of the “spirit of the season” as they are out getting things done. No “excuse me” or “thank you” as they bull through the aisle when you step back to make room. In a rush and grumpy because they’ve waited til the last week to get things done and they keep being forcibly reminded that there ARE other people in the world. Mad because the store is out of what they wanted, but how can the store predict demand when so many people waited so late to shop?
My problem with the complaints when Christians don’t like Happy Holidays or Season’s Greetings, they tend to forget that other holidays of religious significance occur at this time of year. And it is easy to see a lot ot them taking offense at a well meant wish for a Happy Hannukah or Joyful Solstice. I don’t have a problem with a Christmas program being done at school so long as the other traditions are covered in a fair fashion as well. IF they are being honest about it, exclusionary and persecutorial tactics are (my understanding is) against Jesus’ teachings.
Something to remember: a lot of people find it safer to error on the side of caution in our very litigious world.
cal
Ah yes, the “true meaning” of Christmas is certainly open to personal interpretation. That was funny! As a Christian, though, I have to agree with your thoughts of inclusion vs. exclusion during the holidays.
As a “flaming liberal”, however, I do wish that the ACLU would bring up and discuss such things. I support the ACLU in most respects, but more often than not, it seems, I’m reading about the removal of certain things from public places rather than the inclusion of those things. Maybe I’m just a plain-old-liberal, not left enough to warrant the “flaming” title…but I guess even that depends on who you ask.
“Unfortunately, a lot of people with conservative religious beliefs aren’t sane…”
SIIGGGHHHHH…
“A lot” as in too many to fit in your bathroom, or “a lot” as in a large percentage of the conservative religious base?
Let’s try a few others:
* A lot of liberal atheists are whack jobs
* A lot of black people are shiftless
* A lot of Jews are rich
Let’s all play! Bigotted stereotyping is such a fun holiday game!
Or not.
JOEL ROBINSON: You wrote a Christmas song?
CROW T. ROBOT: Hey, there’s no tradition like a new tradition! Ha ha ha!
TOM SERVO: Um, wait a minute. “Let’s Have a Patrick Swayze Christmas?”
CROW: Oh, yeah, yeah. Based on my favorite movie, Roadhouse.
TOM: C’mon, what the heck does PATRICK SWAYZE have to do with CHRISTMAS?!
CROW: Hey, you keep Christmas in your way, and let me keep it in mine, okay?
As a pagan, I tend to prefer “Happy Holidays” over “Merry Christmas,” since I take it to be a sign of respect for any and all beliefs without going into a litany of labels. (I’m reminded of an early episode of BABYLON 5 where the captain introduced ambassadors to representatives of all Earth religions, a line which stretched well past the camera’s range.)
I celebrate Yuletide, which was Christmas before it became christianized, so there’s no real need for any change of habits or traditions. Which makes it easier to stay closeted. Wish I didn’t have to stay closeted, but that’s society as it currently exists.
There was never any consideration for Jewish students in my elementary school until my mother (the school nurse at the time) fought for the inclusion of Jewish-oriented (probably Chanukah-oriented) songs in the Christmas concert. Yay Mom!!
[bold]Just wondering…what kind of sales banner is Macy’s going to use starting Sunday, Dec. 26? Will it be a Post-Holiday sale or a Post-Christmas sale?[/bold] Actually, the holidays aren’t over since the 26th is Three King’s Day.
[bold]there’s a lot of gradiation between singing “Silent Night” in a mixed-traditions program and setting up a nativity scene with a banner reading “Jesus is the reason for the season.” [/bold] funny thing is that if Jesus does exist, and the star stuff was used for the Kings to get there, Jesus would have been born in March.
also, another funny religiously correct thing is that I’ve heard teachers use ACE (after civilization emerged) over AD (in the year of our lord). either way, it’s still offending, especially if you lived back in the time of Homer.
First, the issue this year is *not* that some are saying “Happy Holidays,” it is that some employees are being told they will be fired if they say “Merry Christmas.”
Which Macy’s and its parent company, Federated Department, Inc, have denied was ever the case. In fact, I paid a visit to their official website: http://www.macys.com, and low and behold, what’s this near the bottom? Why it’s the words “Macy’s wishes you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holidays.”
So much for that lie.
In regards to the Salvation Army, it again does not ruin my Christmas. But it literally could have an impact on the Christmas of others less fortunate.
Yes, it was a stupid and short-sighted decision by Target, but it was lumped in by Bill O’Reilly and others of the “horrible religious right” as part of the “assault on Christmas. Plus it gave them a chance to do some more French-bashing because Target is owned by a French company.
Still, I’d rather shop there than Wal-Mart, but that’s another thread.
Sometimes it’s the opposite happening. For example, the recent “Holiday of Lights” in Denver allowed groups from all over town – except Christians – to contribute a float for the festival. Why the exclusion of just that faith?
Also, government recognition of faith is not an endorsement of it. That’s why Christmas can be a federal holiday, but not be an endorsement of Christianity. If recognition were a problem, then the city of Denver is violating the principle by allowing Native American dance during the proceedings.
Except that the parade is not organized by the City of Denver, but by a private group:
“Morrison’s idea included only vague notions of multicultural participation and traditional Christmas hymns. But he was told no by the Downtown Denver Partnership, a private business group that stages the parade. The group cited a longstanding policy against overtly religious and political themes. In light of the uproar that erupted last week, the partnership pledged to revisit the policy.”
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E2577072,00.html
If a private group doesn’t want religious displays in their event, that’s their right. I may not agree with their reasoning, but it’s still their right.
[bold] Yes, it was a stupid and short-sighted decision by Target, but it was lumped in by Bill O’Reilly and others of the “horrible religious right” as part of the “assault on Christmas. Plus it gave them a chance to do some more French-bashing because Target is owned by a French company. [/bold]
Wait, Tarjay is French owned?! Yes! Just another thing that people can add to their boycott lists.
There will always be people who get their knickers in a twist over anything. Probably half the people I hung out with at college were Jewish (not sure why…maybe I enjoyed having others around me who could sympathize with my sorrow over the sorry state of St Louis pizza, bagles, delis…basically, food).There was one young lady, otherwise sane, who would go ballistic if anyone sent her a Christmas card. She finally decided to “make them see how I feel” by sending out Chanukah cards. Then she was REALLY miserable when people started thanking her for them, plus now EVERYONE felt obligated to send her Christmas cards.
With so many genuine dickweeds in the world, why take offense at those who wish you no harm? Want to wish me a happy Solstice/Christmas/Chanukah/Shaved Yak Night? Right back at you, pal, and a Happy New Year to boot.
Robbnn,
In Kelly’s defense, her bathroom IS quite spacious.
funny thing is that if Jesus does exist, and the star stuff was used for the Kings to get there, Jesus would have been born in March.
Also, shepherds didn’t stay out late with their flocks in December. In the winter months, they kept their sheep in pens. They only stayed out late during the mating season. Again, Jesus was probably born in March. Dec 25 was picked simply because it coincided with the Roman Saturnalia festival and allowed newly converted Christians to keep some of their old traditions like gift-giving and decorating with holy berries.
A Yuletide? Isn’t that like a tidal wave of evil santa clones?
SPPOOOOOnnnn!!!
I was working at Circuit City the year we were ordered by corperate in a pc attempt to not upset anyone, anywhere, to expunge christmas altogether. dec 5 we were ordered to take down the bows on large ticket items, remove all the holiday sale banners and take the tree at the front of the store and dispose of it. We were then not allowed to mention the holiday while the store was open.
on another note
“Let’s Have a Patrick Swayze Christmas?”
I got the word that Santa has been stealing from the till.
I think that right jolly old elf had best make out his will!
OOOOOO open up your heart and let the Patrick Swayze Christmas in.
I understand the May company’s position on instructing employees to not say “Merry Christmas;” all it would take is for one group of not-Christian customers to file a lawsuit, and the company would be in a world of hurt
On what basis would they sue? I have heard this argument before, but it is an empty threat. As a company, they are not violating church and state. They are not engaged in hate speech. This is not about worry about a law suit. This is fear of offending a customer who would not shop at the store. In the process, they have offended a different set of customers who now don’t want to shop at the store.
Jim in Iowa
Scavenger wrote:
That said, what I’ve never understood, is why do Christians insist on being insensitive to others, especialy at the time they’ve co-opted for their savior’s birth? The lack of understanding why your city’s government displaying Christian symbolism might be upsetting to others (not to mention against the law) is mind boggling. Putting your wants and desires ahead of others hardly seems to be in the spirit of Jesus’ teachings.
I don’t understand why people might find it offensive, because I can’t imagine my being offended if my town decorated for a holiday that I didn’t celebrate. It’s not that I just wouldn’t be offended; I can’t imagine being offended, unless the decorations were offensive for some reason OTHER than their origins in another religion.
If all faiths and beliefs were really being represented, I would see PAD’s point. Where I went to school–and this includes elementary school all the way through college, in several different states–there were Merry Christmas banners all around, as well as Christmas trees, wreaths, big pictures of Santa Claus, and then a little token menorah or dreidel. Some years, they’d leave out the menorah. In my opinion, that goes beyond inclusiveness and turns into endorsement of religion: “We, as a school, are celebrating this holiday, and if you don’t believe in it, you’re an oddball.”
Admittedly, I am an oddball, but I resent being bombarded with someone else’s religion. I imagine atheists have it even worse.
Besides, Christmas music is really, really annoying.
–Daniel M.
Which Macy’s and its parent company, Federated Department, Inc, have denied was ever the case. In fact, I paid a visit to their official website: http://www.macys.com, and low and behold, what’s this near the bottom? Why it’s the words “Macy’s wishes you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holidays.”
So much for that lie.
Den, where, exactly, did I mention Macy’s, or any particular store for that matter? I have not seen any written statements saying someone would be fired. But here in Iowa, I know of two people who have been verbally told to not say “Merry Christmas” with the clear implication that they would be reprimanded and even fired. I have read similar stories where managers have said the same to store employees. So quit trying to narrow my statement to something I never even said, and then discounting it as a lie.
Yes, it was a stupid and short-sighted decision by Target, but it was lumped in by Bill O’Reilly and others of the “horrible religious right” as part of the “assault on Christmas. Plus it gave them a chance to do some more French-bashing because Target is owned by a French company.
Still, I’d rather shop there than Wal-Mart, but that’s another thread.
It may surprise you, but I don’t watch or listen to Bill O’Reilly. I could care less what he said about the matter, and your first post did not mention you were responding to his comments. I would agree with you that the Target decision was not about assaulting Christmas or the Salvation Army. I would also agree that I would rather shop at Target, but there are a few things (such as over the counter drugs) that are so much cheaper at Wally World that I will make a monthly visit to stock up.
(I thought Target was owned by the same group that owned Hudson’s and Mervyns. Are they all French owned? That is news to me.)
Jim in Iowa
If all faiths and beliefs were really being represented, I would see PAD’s point. Where I went to school–and this includes elementary school all the way through college, in several different states–there were Merry Christmas banners all around, as well as Christmas trees, wreaths, big pictures of Santa Claus, and then a little token menorah or dreidel. Some years, they’d leave out the menorah. In my opinion, that goes beyond inclusiveness and turns into endorsement of religion: “We, as a school, are celebrating this holiday, and if you don’t believe in it, you’re an oddball.”
Your statement comes without consideration of historical demographical context. The overwhelming majority in this country were at least nominally Christian and celebrated Christmas. While it may have been insensitive in some ways, it was not a matter of shutting out alternatives. If you had 30% who were Muslim, 25% who were Jewish, 40% who were Christian, and 5% that were “other,” you would have a point. But when 80% are Christian and there is a wide range of “other” in the remaining 20%, you will by default have the situation you described.
I am fine with being inclusive, but let’s keep things in perspective. Even today, the vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, not any of the other holidays that come this time of year. For there to be more Christmas signs, etc., is not a matter of an endorsement of a religion, it is simply a recognition that the majority belong to (at least loosely) a given religion.
Jim in Iowa
Den, where, exactly, did I mention Macy’s, or any particular store for that matter? I have not seen any written statements saying someone would be fired. But here in Iowa, I know of two people who have been verbally told to not say “Merry Christmas” with the clear implication that they would be reprimanded and even fired. I have read similar stories where managers have said the same to store employees. So quit trying to narrow my statement to something I never even said, and then discounting it as a lie.
My original post that you replied to was specifically about Macy’s. Macy’s is the store that conservative groups have targeted for boycotts and the ones that have been receiving coverage in the media based on false accusations. If you were not talking about Macy’s then you should have clarified it before you replied to a post about Macy’s, because from reading what you wrote right under my quote about Macy’s it looks like you are talking about Macy’s.
It may surprise you, but I don’t watch or listen to Bill O’Reilly. I could care less what he said about the matter, and your first post did not mention you were responding to his comments.
Good for you, but I said Bill O’Reilly and others. O’Reilly is just one of several conservative commentators who have raised this issue. It’s not just about him.
(I thought Target was owned by the same group that owned Hudson’s and Mervyns. Are they all French owned? That is news to me.)
I did some checking on the internet and it seems that part of the story was a lie. They are publicly traded company based in Minneapolis.
http://www.truthminers.com/truth/target.htm
http://www.targetcorp.com/targetcorp_group/contactus/contact.jhtml
Hard to believe that conservatives would distort the truth, huh?
I am fine with being inclusive, but let’s keep things in perspective. Even today, the vast majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, not any of the other holidays that come this time of year. For there to be more Christmas signs, etc., is not a matter of an endorsement of a religion, it is simply a recognition that the majority belong to (at least loosely) a given religion.
And it is because of that basic fact that is observable to anyone stepping outside their door in December that I, even as a non-affiliated Christian, am amazed that conservatives are actively promoting this myth that Christmas is somehow under “assault.”
I think bitterness leftover from the election is somewhat spoiling this season for lots of people. Hard to be all “merry Xmas” when in the back of your mind a part of you is sceaming “not 4 more years of this nightmare!”
It doesn’t help when the “winning” side was immedietely saying, pretty much, “we won, get over it, get in line.”
And I suspect that at least some of the anti-christian backlash is related to the fact that our government is leaning more and more toward trying to legislate christian morality for the whole country.
On what basis would they sue? I have heard this argument before, but it is an empty threat. As a company, they are not violating church and state. They are not engaged in hate speech. This is not about worry about a law suit. This is fear of offending a customer who would not shop at the store. In the process, they have offended a different set of customers who now don’t want to shop at the store.
I don’t think there is any basis to sue somebody over a “Merry Christmas.” That said, I can understand stores wanting to make their holiday decorations as generic as they could so that they can make non-Christians feel more comfortable shopping there and therefore, maximize their sales.
And that is their right.
Telling employees what kind of greetings they can use is somewhat more difficult issue. Certainly they can tell employees what to wear while on the clock so that they can present a certain corporate image. All Target cashiers have to wear red shirts (in case the store is attacked by Klingons) and all Wal-Mart employees have to wear a blue vest (I guess because slave collars are considered passe). So, one can argue that an employee’s appearance and demeanor has a diret impact on how the public perceives the company.
On the other hand, I would not believe that letting a “Merry Christmas” slip out would be a firable offense. That is just wrong.
“Hard to believe that conservatives would distort the truth, huh?”
Hey man, YOU’RE the one who said they were French-owned.
“And it is because of that basic fact that is observable to anyone stepping outside their door in December that I, even as a non-affiliated Christian, am amazed that conservatives are actively promoting this myth that Christmas is somehow under “assault.””
Obviously an overstatement…on the other hand, Jeff’s story would indicate that it is not entirely an imaginary situation.
Hey man, YOU’RE the one who said they were French-owned.
I was repeating what some conservatives, including Bill O’Reilly and my mother-in-law (don’t ask) told me. So, yeah, I made a mistake in repeating it without checking first, it was conservative groups that started the lie.
At least I own up to my mistakes.
One of my favorite lines so far of this season came from the daily show. Samantha B. said when discussing christmas (to paraphrase) “Christmas is the only religious holiday that’s also a federal holiday, so that christians have the day off to celebrate their holiday while everyone else can sit at home and really contemplate the notion of the separation of church and state.”
If it were up to me, all holiday shows would be set up by the churches, synagogues, mosques, and any other houses of worship that celebrate said holidays. Cause this stuff doesn’t only happen on christmas. In public elementary schools they make Halloween costumes in october, and valentine cards in February. Both holidays not being american holiday’s, but Christian/pagan (and the reason I say pagan is because I’m not quite sure about Halloween) ones, regardless how commercialized they might have become I have never heard of anyone making decorations for their sukkah (a jewish holiday) in public school or sending out cards wishing people an easy fast for ramadan (a muslim holiday).
if you want your kids in a christmas show, or making valentine cards and so on, do it in your house of worship. the majority of this country may be christian, but that’s why churches exist and aren’t affiliated with public education. I’m not saying the holidays shouldn’t be discussed in classes. Inclusiveness in regards to teaching and leering.
on another note (unrelated to state matters) I prefer stores and such to be exclusive rather than inclusive. I’m Jewish and it sounds ridiculous to me when someone wishes me a happy holidays after Chanukah is over. I don’t mind christmas. it seems really nice. If you as an individual wish me a merry christmas I’ll wish you one too.
I meant inclusiveness in regards to teaching and learning, not teaching and leering.
whoops, was that a freudian slip or what?
I’m working in a mall this year, and let me tell you- there’s nothing like the holiday season to bring out the psychotic in all of us.
” We all want some figgy pudding”
When it comes to eomployment, unless you’ve got a contract, you’re an at-will employment. It’s kinda like “fire at Will.” Which, btw, I’m glad someone finally included in a ST book, cause I’ve been playing that joke for yucks for years now.
Anyway, at-will employment has allowed many firings that would otherwise seem unwarranted. Blockbuster a few years ago implemented a dress code (in addition to bad polyester blue shirts) of basically no scarggly looking guys. Might have included a ban on piercings in places other than women’s ears. There was an outcry, but at the end of the day, Blockbuster had the right to terminate any employee that failed to adhere to the dress code. Legally. With no repurcussions.
Employment law only protects a very small group of classes, such as sex, religion, and national origin (which is a semi-disguised way of saying race).
So if Macy’s, either as a chain or an individual store, decides to prohibit a friendly expression of good will during a traditional holiday time, they can do that. And they can fire people who violate that policy.
How’s that for a Christmas bonus?
I hear you, Gene. We’re getting random X-mas music sprinkled in with our usual light-pop tunes.
gahhhhhhhhhh
Some thoughts about the season.
I have mixed feelings about the fact that people now tend to say
“In public elementary schools they make Halloween costumes in october, and valentine cards in February. Both holidays not being american holiday’s, but Christian/pagan (and the reason I say pagan is because I’m not quite sure about Halloween)”
Halloween derives from All Hollow’s Eve, which is the night before All Saint’s Day, (which is a Catholic holiday) where ghosts and souls and stuff come back, or something like that.
Peter David: Also, as a Jew, I have to say I don’t understand how it’s possible for the “true meaning” of Christmas to be lost