I’ve had good times in Spain. Met lots of charming, enthusiastic comics fans there during my several sojourns.
And now people are getting blown up. Initially 170, and you just knew that number was going to keep climbing, and it is. I keep worrying one of the smiling folks I met are just dismembered corpses now. And even if it’s no one I knew, that certainly doesn’t make it “better.”
Yet it was “comforting” somehow to think it was Basque separatists, because then it wasn’t “our” problem, it was Spain’s. Except now, with even separatists distancing themselves from the blast, Al Qaida is claiming responsibility…ostensibly to punish US allies over the attack on Iraq. Which leads me to wonder if people who were yelling that there were Iraq/Al Qaida links are perceiving this as a good thing (“Proof!”) or a bad thing (“Oh, right, people got killed.”)
I would stop short of saying that the blood is on Bush’s hands. Madmen don’t need rational reasons to kill others. Iraq was just another excuse for the acts of madmen, who might well have committed the same atrocities in Spain while putting some other spin on it.
And yet, if it is Al Qaida, we will be blamed for it. Don’t doubt that. The Spanish government backing the US was a spectacularly unpopular move. We went into a war searching for non-existent WMDs and, a year later, Spanish civilians are being turned into pinatas with that action being cited as the cause for it. Yet another reason for yet another country to hate us.
The insanity is just escalating. Blood on our hands? On second thought, Hëll, why not. In the horror show of escalating terrorism, where the only answer for violence that so many people can come up with is more violence on top of more violence, there’s enough blood for everyone.
PAD
• 
“Which leads me to wonder if people who were yelling that there were Iraq/Al Qaida links are perceiving this as a good thing (“Proof!”) or a bad thing (“Oh, right, people got killed.”)”
Probably no more or less than there were and are people who perceive American soldier deaths as a good thing (“No blood for oil!”) or a bad thing (“Dead soldiers.”).
Personally I think that the vast majoprity of people from both sides of the political spectrum find no “good” in either news but I am generally of an uncynical nature.
You are correct that the USA will be blamed. The fact that Spain is a very desireable target to the islamofascists for reasons that go way back to around 1492 (that’s way way before even the FIRST Bush administration, gang) won’t matter.
One possible point though–there is an election in Spain in just a few days. It would be to the advantage of one party for the bombers to be Al Qaida, as opposed to Basque seperatists. That being the case, care must be taken so that we aren’t fooled by either one terrorist group pretending to be the other, or by government officials suppressing the truth. (The just announced arrests seem to point to Al Qaida but other factors call this into question).
There is a nonviolent way to end all this and Al Qaida has even thoughtfully told us what it is; pull out of the middle east, cease any and all support of Israel and convert to Islam. I imagine by the last they mean only their own form of Islam, which might require that we do something about all those gays and uncovered women. But, you know, omlets and eggs.
What you Yanks do not understand is that you were hated before 9/11 and you will be hated afterwards.
No matter who is in power. Carter, Reagan, Bush Clinton.
So as a Canadian who has changed and matured and respects you crazy lugs for the good you have done, please remember that this is a WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
And If John”law enforcement” Kerry gets into power, look out.
I want Bush for the war.
AnthonyX
PS I realize I can get married to my good friend Dougie if I wanted to here and you can’t, but these things can wait.
Just a reminder from the great Mark Steyn:
After the bombings in BAli a spokesman for the Islamic Army of Aden said, “We would have preferred to hit a US frigate, but no problem because they are all infidels.”
Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, neatly put it, “We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.”
The first choice of Islamists is to kill Americans and Jews, or best of all an American Jew – like Daniel Pearl, the late Wall Street Journal reporter. Failing that, they’re happy to kill Australians, Britons, Canadians, Swedes, Germans, as they did in Bali. We are all infidels.
And now Spaniards. “We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.” And by “you”, they mean not just arrogant Texan cowboys, but any pluralist society – whether a relaxed tourist resort like Bali or a modern Muslim nation like Turkey or – come to that, one day down the road – a cynical swamp of appeasement like France.
AnthonyX, good way of looking at it.
No matter which terrorist group is responsible for the atrocity in Madrid, negotiation is not just a bad idea. It’s crazy. Terrorists really don’t have much to say…which is why we’re waging war on them, instead of not buying their paperbacks and not reading their persuasive articles. This week, the Spanish discovered the principle behind Aznar’s decision to stand with America in Iraq.
Bill,
Most people in my neck of the woods are on record as fairly opposed to the war. Of the people I know, however, not one of them considers the U.S. deaths in Iraq a good thing. Nor, I suspect, do they consider the news out of Spain particularly good as well.
“No blood for [insert concept here]” doesn’t equate to “therefore our own soldiers should be killed” except for people really far out on the extremes. In response to your wishful thinking, I’d like to say in turn that I’d like to think that most people on either side **aren’t** that far into extremes.
TWL
Hi, im am from Madridm and i can tell taht nobody is blaming USA, some people blame Spain’s president because he supports Irak’s war, but what i think is that this is stupid, we must blame the terrorist, not anyone else (even though in tomorrow elections i will vote against actual’s president party) and even i was against Irak’s war i will never be happy with the death of american soldier or with the death of any person, sorry because i’m afraid of my bad english but i think you will understand what i say
The biggest problem with terrorism, is that to deal with it, you’re dámņëd if you fight back, and you’re dámņëd if you don’t.
When dealing with terrorist, you’re dealign with desperate people… folks who will blow themselves up because they feel they have nothing left to lose… then send out tapes and emails screaming “look! It was us! we did it! we did it!”
Do nothing? and you’re weak, and they’ll just target you again, only bigger and bolder…
Do something? And you’re an oppressive nation, and it just reenforces why they hate you…
As for the people in Spain, I can’t help but feel bad for them, and I hope they get as many peopleresponsible for this as they possibly can. That gathering in madrid was quite touching.
Being a Spanish myself and living in Madrid I have felt a tremendous shock these last days. I joined the thousands of people in the streets yesterday demanding peace. The terrorst need no reason to kill, they just do what hurts the most. They won
In response to Slick, there is a lot of terrorist that blow up themselves beacuse they have nothing to left or because they believe that they will go to heaven doing that, but this is not remotly the case of Basque terrorist, i am from Madrid but i have a lot of Basque’s familys and i know that they have everything, but a part of Basques want to be independent from Spain ( i have no problem with that, i haven’t any patriotic feeling) the problem is that some of the independist think that viloence is the medium tu achieve their purposses. I think i must acclarate this even though the actual investigation points arabian’s integrist terrorist as the responsible for Madrid Massacre. Sorry about my English again
To our Spanish friends; your English is fine (far more skillful than my Spanish). You have our sympathy and support. The fact that something like 10-20% of the entire country was out on the streets yesterday speaks volumes about you nation and its people.
Tim, I hope it didn’t come across as my saying that I thought those on the left were happy to see US soldiers dead–I was just flipping Peter’s suggestion about those on the right possibly finding good in the slaughter in Spain. yes, a few folks have expressed the idea that every American death makes it less likely that Bush will be elected and thus a regretable necessity and I suspect there are indeed conservatives who see vindication in every terrorist strike but, again, I don’t find either representative of either side.
If it is Al-Qaeda (and as I type the Spanish government are announcing they have a new videotape claiming their responsibility) then no doubt the reasoning will be that Spain stood behind the US. (Great…that means the UK next, right?)
While I think the war on Iraq was more to do with rhetoric, posturing and vote-winning rather than any high moral stance, I don’t see anyone truly ‘blaming’ the US for the modus operandi of the Madrid bombers. Making an observation on recent alliances, yes (but terrorists can usually find something they think is a *justification* should they so wish) but in no way casting blame on the US per se.
Whatever my feelings on Iraq, there is no excuse for the cowardly acts of terrorism and we can only hope that the amazing outpouring of the crowds in the last 24hrs (estimated to be around a 1/4 of Spain’s whole population) can show those who use violence against innocents that it will not be accepted by right-minded people.
But equally, for a war on terrorism that was supposed to make the world a safer place, it seems the strategy so far has merely created a class system for it. Litle League: ETA, Big League: Al-Quaeda.
John.
Not feeling remotely safe
Thanks for the support
Daniel Garcias: sorry because i’m afraid of my bad english but i think you will understand what i say
Luigi Novi: Daniel, no te preocupes, te entendemos perfectamente.
(Better than some of the native English speakers here, in fact! :))
It
Ok, I have absolutely no expertise on international affairs. All I do know is that there has to be an alternative to further escalating hostilities. As I have said before, I’m tired of all the hate. And I realize that hate is a necessary, vital component to our emotional make-up. I would just like to see humanity act on hate only when it comes to crabmeat ice-cream and purple dinosaurs. When it comes to people we should try to, at the very least, display some respect. Even if we hate them.
The attack in Spain is just the latest example hate and fundamental lack of respect for human life run amok. To the survivors of the blast and the family and friends of the dead I offer my deepest sympathies and best wishes for your respective futures. I would also like to add that I hope that Spain doesn’t give the cowardly prìçkš responsible the satisfaction. Were it withing my power I would leave it to the citizens of Spain to decide how not to give it to them.
Just what is the deal with blowing up civilians anyway? Is the terrorist position so weak that there is really no other way to make a point? And if it is shouldn’t we, as a… world community search for effective ways to address these issues at the source, if for no other reason than to prevent another such occurance?
I realize that negotiating a peace with people who want you dead for no reason othr than you disagree with them, but where else can we sart without opening the wound even further?
Salutations,
Mitch
“We went into a war searching for non-existent WMDs and, a year later, Spanish civilians are being turned into pinatas with that action being cited as the cause for it.”
It’s that kind of re-writing of current events and misconception that demonstrates what lengths the world’s left will go to (in some cases once again) assume some semblence of power.
Hi, I’m also from Spain (you have quite a good group of followers here), there has been quite a shock for the Madrid Bombers and I was expecting this topic to appear any moment. For the authors of the tragedy there is now nearly no doubt that it is a muslim terrorist group, the goberment have tried to slow the flowing of news because they know that if the vasque separatist group ws blamed they would probably receive more votes (that’s me just especulating, some people would disagree).
The thought of the two separate groups colaborating (which has extended among the world press) is in my opinion totally absurd. It makes no sense at all. You see, ETA are quite racist and I can’t imagine them working with muslim. Nor can I think of Al Quaeda working with “occidental devils”.
About the “evil americans”, I do not think the most of Spanish are blaming americans for the bombings but they prefer to blame our president for being so stupid as to follow G W Bush’s path into the Iraq war with 95% of the Spanish against it.
And sorry about my English, like the other Spanish posters I also feel a little ashamed of it. 🙂
Keep on with the making of this blog, PAD, its alwails interesting seen some picture of America that its not the one that our dear Bush sends to Europe.
(I saw this evening Laura Bush talking about the Madrid Bombings and I found her face almost satanic. Was I the only one?)
**The thought of the two separate groups colaborating (which has extended among the world press) is in my opinion totally absurd. It makes no sense at all. You see, ETA are quite racist and I can’t imagine them working with muslim. Nor can I think of Al Quaeda working with “occidental devils”.**
I disagree–it’s amazing what people will do to advance their own agenda. The racist Nazi government of Adolph Hitler had no trouble working with Imperial japan and the japanese were happy to have the occidental devils on their side (one can certainly wonder how long that would have lasted had the Axis powers emerged victorious)
**(I saw this evening Laura Bush talking about the Madrid Bombings and I found her face almost satanic. Was I the only one?)**
Depends. Were there other people in the room when you dropped acid? Save the hate for the people who are trying to kill you.
One aside–I keepp hearing that one reason Al Qaida is suspected is because of the level of “sophistication” in the bombing. Is it really that tough to synchronize clocks so a bunch of bombs go off at once? You don’t need Blofeld and the rest of the SPECTRE boys to pull that off.
“It’s that kind of re-writing of current events and misconception that demonstrates what lengths the world’s left will go to (in some cases once again) assume some semblence of power.”
Darrin, not that I want to be the World’s Left Spell-Checker… but it is SEMBLANCE, Man… SEMBLANCE.
If you are only going to allow us left wing nuts the right to assume a small amount of something… Then please have the ALL MIGHTY DECENCY to spell it correctly!
Not to sound too much like that pound losin’ fool AMERICAN IDOL judge Randy Jackson– but I thought your post was a little hoity-toity, Dawg!
From the very first, the attack did not fit the profile of the typical ETA action. It was either going to be a foreign action, or a radical splinter organization.
Negiotation has to happen sooner or later, because otherwise the only way to achieve peace is not only kill the terrorists, but their children, brothers, sisters, families, relatives until none are left to remember them.
And quite frankly, that is a very disturbing thought. Are we willing to erase an entire people?
Being from europe, I feel for the Spanish people. Especially since the vast majority of them did not want to follow the US into Iraq.
But you have to look it from the person in power’s POV. With Bush making statements like: “You are either with us, or against us” What choice does the leader of a country have? be crippled economically? … or join the US and pray to god that the terrorists dont pick your country on the list of US Allies.
(Seeing the absolutly disgusting way the US, especially media, treats the French and Germans after having the balls to say no to the US, do you blame other nations for going along with Bush’s personal agenda?)
This is why i agree 100% that the blood is on Bush’s hands. Not that he gives a dámņ though, whatever furthers his agenda…
“Negiotation has to happen sooner or later, because otherwise the only way to achieve peace is not only kill the terrorists, but their children, brothers, sisters, families, relatives until none are left to remember them.”
I disagree. We have nothing they want, except our surrender. I suppose we could buy a few years by, I don’t know, nuking Israel or something, but soon they’d be telling us to kill ALL the Jews and gays and infidels and I don’t know about you, but as long as I’m gonna be expected to kill people I’d just as soon it be the terrorists, all things being equal.
At any rate, it is possible to eliminate terrorists groups. The Thuggees of India pose little threat today. The original assassins, the Nizari Ismailis, aren’t around. Few Muslims are terrorists–it will not require the deaths of all, any more than the emasculation of the KKK in America required massive executions of white folk.
“It’s that kind of re-writing of current events and misconception that demonstrates what lengths the world’s left will go to (in some cases once again) assume some semblence of power.”
Re-writing you say? Because I was under the impression that weapons of mass destruction have not been found, spanish citizens are being attacked (and the war has been cited as the cause for this). Where did you get the impression that the left has very little power? The United States is one of the few first world countries where the right actually seems to have much at all for power, but even here they’re not THAT powerful.
Athough, now that I think about it; the right is too powerful here.
And in 10 years, the left will have too much power. So it goes.
The only thing this attack really proves to me is that Americans are finally more aware of terroism that happens out in the rest of the world since 9/11. It’s too easy in a country as large as ours, with as many different cultures and ideas floating around here, to really pay attention to the rest of the world. This is why the rest of the world tends to get ticked off at us, we seem self absorbed – until we are all in their face.
We’ll eventually figure out that both left and right have a place in time, and that what happens ‘over there’ is just as important. I just dunno that I’d hold my breath waiting for that insight.
Once a group of people have decided on terrorism, the only defense is to track all the members done and kill them. This is a strong statement, and I do not make this lightly. People seem to be confusing the “War on Terrorism” with the “War on Iraq.” The war to rid the world of terrorism is needed. The “War on Iraq” has been lumped into the former with no solid concections. If anything, it should be a “War on Saudi Arabia” seeing as 15 of the 19 fanatics of 9/11 were Saudi.
What should the U.S. government done once Osama was fingered as the guru of this attack? Well, seeing as Osama is a member of the Saudi royal family, how does this sound?
1. Summon the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S.
and his top aide to the White House.
2. Inform the Ambassador that the Saudi
Government has 7 days to deliver Osama
to U.S. authorities.
3. If they fail to do so, every member of
Royal family will be assassinated within
30 days after that.
Does this sound drastic? You bet!! But let’s be honest. The arab world, and more specifically, Saudi Arabia, have not been helpful, or overly forthcoming through any of this.
As for the “War on Iraq,” this is a problem that should have been dealt with 12 years ago, back when the whole world was on America’s side. But the same brilliant minds that decided to hold back then, are the same ones who wanted this grudge match, and that is exactly what it is; a grudge match.
As for the sepratist fringe, what I see from my soap box is, as the world/global communittee gets smaller, more and more xenaphobes want to carve out their own niche and say “We are ******, and this is our country.” It’s the same argument whether it is the Quebecios in Canada, the Irish, Scotish or Welsch in Great Britian, the Basque in Spain or France, the Kurds in Turkey or Iraq, the Czechs and Slovaks, the Croatians and Slavs, the Greeks and Turks in Crete, any former Soviet State, and this list just keeps going.
Now, one last thought on terrorism. It seems to me that people turn to terrorism because communication has already broken down. To suggest that we need to talk now is way, way, way too late.
Elvis has left the soap box.
I take offense to one of Peter’s comments. There is no blood on our hands for this. The blood is on the hands of the animals who did this. And if they say they did this because of the war in Iraq, well, so what? And I’m not being cold or insensitive here. If that had never happened, then these idiots would still be killing people, but they would simply use a different excuse.
Al Qaida is currently on a holy war against everyone who does not believe their particular interpretation of the Koran. It doesn’t matter if you are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, an atheist, or if you worship the sun god Ra. You are evil, and if you cannot be conveniently converted, you must be destroyed. Some categories of evil have a higher destruction priority then others (Israel and the U.S., for example), but eventually, all “non-believers” will have to be converted or destroyed. You can bet your bottom dollar that if two meteors wiped out the U.S. and Israel tomorrow, al Qaida would shift their focus to the next evil entity on their priorities list.
And it doesn’t matter who the leader of a target group is. In the case of the U.S., it doesn’t matter if the president is George W. Bush, John Kerry, Ralph Nader, Al Sharpton, Hillary Clinton, Colin Powell or Howdy Doody — to al Qaida, we are still “an evil empire” that must be destroyed. And it also doesn’t matter if you are a pacifist, hawk, Republican, Independent, Democrat, PETA proponent, NRA member, organic food-lover, or if you eat Twinkies by the truckload. You are still a target.
Wars such as al Qaida’s, whether motivated by religious differences, a desire for a neighbor’s riches, or whatever, have been going on for thousands of years. However, regardless what rationale prompted the killing, large-scale mass murder for any reason could, in the past, only be accomplished by a large group of people — generally a vast army of some kind. But that’s no longer the case. Today, a handful of people with a grudge can kill hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people.
That is the scary reality of the situation.
So instead of wasting our time complaining about what Bush did or did not do while in the Texas Air National Guard 35 years ago, or complaining about whether or not Kerry had Botox shots, how about we instead look beyond our own narrow biases or special interests and focus on ways of lessening or eliminating a growing terrorist threat that will destroy us all if given the opportunity?
Russ Maheras
Al Qaeda? Nope; I don’t buy it.
First, this Abu Dujan al Afghani (which is almost certainly an assumed name; “Dujan” or “Dojan” means “Smoke” in Arabic) has never been heard of before–something of a surprise, given that we’re able to pinpoint all of bin Laden’s aides and bodyguards and deputies and suchlike.
Second, while it’s pretty much accepted that they did it, al-Quaeda never released any statements after they bopmbed the USS Cole or after the WTC/Pentagon bombing–why would they suddenly switch around now?
Third, there are a great many other Islamist terror organizations; al-Quaeda is not the alpha and omega our leaders would have us believe.
Fourth, does no one recall that two ETA members were caught putting a large bomb on a Madrid train on Christmas Eve?
(that being said, I don’t think it’s the Basques–or, at least, that it’s something directed by the ETA rather than a splinter group–the ETA has usually provided warnings, and the one time they DID bomb a large public place [killing 21 in a mall some years back], they quickly issued an apology, saying it was a mistake.)
We should not rush to give this to al-Quaeda; to do so is overly convenient (by which I mean it’s too easy to do rather than fully investigate the matter; not that I’m implying any intent to stir up any conspiracy pot) and ascribes far too much puissance to them.
One more thing: We’re not used to terrorism here in the States; we’ve really only been hit a very small number of times–the two Twin Towers bombings, the Oklahoma City bombing, a couple Weather Underground actions, the Puertorriqueno nationalists shooting up Congress or trying to attack Truman and Roosevelt–as compared to the almost-monthly bombings, assassinations, kidnappings in countries in the rest of the world.
So, being so rarely exposed to terror, we tend to think in terms of one big terrorist group–SMERSH or SPECTRE or COBRA–rather than lots and lots and lots of small ones.
Vaya Con Dios, Todos.
Posted by Chris at March 14, 2004 12:38 AM:
I take offense to one of Peter’s comments. There is no blood on our hands for this. The blood is on the hands of the animals who did this. And if they say they did this because of the war in Iraq, well, so what? And I’m not being cold or insensitive here. If that had never happened, then these idiots would still be killing people, but they would simply use a different excuse.
I agree. America is not to blame for the acts of people we are in opposition to. To suggest we are is nonsense. If, as another poster stated, 95% of spanish citizens were in opposition to Spain aiding the US in opposition to al Qaida, then I would think that this attack should make 95% of them in favor of it now.
If the Spanish people withdraw support for the US because of this attack, it will justify the attackers methods. The spanish would be allowing murdering bášŧárdš to bully them into inaction against evil. That is my definition of cowardace.
If the Spanish people double their support for the US fight against terrorists, then in my opinion, they would be showing their true worth as human beings. This evil must be opposed, and if we allow the violent acts of men insane with hate to frighten us into submission, then we deserve anything that they subsequently do to us.
Let the blame fall on the killers who perpetuated this act, not the people who have shrugged off the cowardly naysayers and done the right thing.
Does it matter whether it’s the ETA or Al-Qaeda? Both are terrible terrorist organizations intent on the demoralization and destruction of a civilized people’s way of life. A terrorist is a terrorist, and incidents like this are why the world as a unit should join together in the hunt for these psychopaths and killers.
As this is being written, the news broke a few hours ago that the Spanish authorities had five suspects in custody. That was fast, *astonishingly* fast.
It gives me pause to contemplate why the nations of the world as a collective cannot seem to summon the necessary will to locate, isolate, apprehend and eliminate the key players in all the terrorist networks.
Humanity *as a whole* needs to band together, forget differences and petty self-interests, and get this done *NOW* or the next attack will be far worse.
Then perhaps some good will have come from this and the other tragedies and we can finally start to live in some semblance of peace.
has bush got blood on his hands of course he dose, but it’s not spanish blood if a beach resort in bali can make al-queeda infidels list you can be dámņ sure that we’re all on it somewhere no matter where we live or our view on american foreign policy. Germanys starch oppersition to bush’s policy didn’t stop al-queda from attemting to blow up a christmas market a while back thankfully though the police did.
Ther is no blood on the US’s hands. Only the terrorists are responsible.
Beyond which, if Moroccans are to blame, then this ties into smaller regional hatreds as well as global ones.
But I do think it was what I call “Al-Kinda.” This was not done by the main branch of Al Qaeda, which really doesn’t exist anymore as it once did. It was done by local terrorists with some Al Qaeda training and monies, but with autonomy. That’s why this group left that videotape. They are not following any orders.
These smaller groups don’t pose the same danger as the larger organization – as horrid as the Madrid attacks were, they used simple dynamite – but they are harder to track and harder to eliminate since they depend on locals.
The goals are also just a little different. Local anger comes ahead of global anger.
All of which means nothing as to whether the efforts to kill the rest of us are gearing up again or not. All of which means nothing as to whether Dubya is doing enough to forestall terrorism, or whether he’s doing anything to make the world hate the US less.
All’s I know is that people are dead, and that is bad. And that they beefed up security on the subways when i sohuld have been that high the whole time.
People seem to be confusing the “War on Terrorism” with the “War on Iraq.” The war to rid the world of terrorism is needed. The “War on Iraq” has been lumped into the former with no solid concections.
Starting with George W.
Seriously though, the belief that genocide is a legitimate reaction to terrorism is just plain scary and will not work. It will make things worse.
One of the things that’s plain in the whole US/911 reactions is that the US doesn’t have any real experience of Terrorism as an ongoing problem. There was Oklahoma or course, but anything before that? The WTC bombing which was thwarted and so doesn’t count, and a few gun nuts. It always seemed to me telling that the ‘terrorists’ in Die Hard were just bank robbers.
Unless genocide is an option, and lets act like it’s not, the only way forwards is to calm down and learn to live together. So far we’re showing some signs of this happening in Northern Ireland, though the peace is fragile and some habits are hard to break. This stems from both sides admitting that the other has a right to exist, and that the other side has a right to feel pìššëd øff.
The US is still at the stage where is thinks it is ‘Good’ and the other guys are ‘Evil’ and so everything is simple. Eventually I have to hope that the US and the Islamicists will learn to life together, and I hope that not too many die along the way.
But please don’t take this as my saying that Madrid, or 9/11, were somehow justified. Or acceptable. They weren’t. They were unreservedly the wrong way to do things.
Hermann, two points:
1) Osama bin Laden is not “a member of the Saudi royal family.” The bin Ladens are a wealthy family, with their largest interest in construction; however, they are not royalty. Further, they disowned Osama not long after he turned to radical Wahhabism, so the family cannot today be reasonably held responsible for his actions, or those of his followers.
2) “Xenaphobes”? What would people who fear Lucy Lawless have to do with this?
“I take offense to one of Peter’s comments. There is no blood on our hands for this.”
You can take offense all you want, but that requires missing the point.
I’m saying that humanity is caught in a cycle of violence being answered with violence being answered with violence being answered with violence. If there’s anything that requires our attention, a war is declared on it. Terrorism, drugs, poverty, doesn’t matter. “Declare war.” It seeps into our very way of expressing ourselves. And all the while, we decry violence while saying it’s all the other guy’s fault. ..”we” referring to whoever is the speaker at the time. Americans, Europeans, Israelis, Palestinians…it’s always the same. It’s not us. It’s them. It’s always them.
This is not sane. This is the hemorrhaging of morality. Lewis Carroll had it right; We’re all mad here.
And I don’t pretend to know what the answer is. The answer is going to be developed by people who are able to think outside the box and come up a new paradigm.
Presuming they’re not blown up first.
PAD
I heard a rumor this morning :
Since the government has been very criticised for its involvment il the war, and since there are election today in Spain, the bombing might have been ordered by the spanish government to make people change their mind and vote for the current majority.
Info or science fiction ? I don’t know.
In the absence of evidence for that theory, Leto, I’d pick Scenario #3: An Oliver Stone movie. And not one of his well-written ones.
While Bin Laden may not be a member of the Saudi Royal family 18 of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis, the war on terrorism will never be won as long as the US continues to pussyfoot around with the Saudis and with Cowardly Europeans who want appeasement (ah hear the ghost of Chamberlin now) instead of an end to terrorism. France and GErmany not only will not help end terrorism but by thier owns fears they aide it. The US should take a strong stand against them even if it means breaking off diplomatic relations. Enough with the UN and its cowardly reactions.
The mind of a terroist works differenly then the mind of a rational being, therefore we must think differenly to counter act the actions. A bomb on Mecca may be a good start (and God help me I am only half joking there). We need to let Bin Landen and the others know we mean business. Stronger support from Europe for Israel and the right of the Jewish people to thier own land would also help. Another good place to start would be with the repal of the Patriot Act. Why should I put bars on my windows when crime goes up? Eliminate Crime, same thing here. Eliminate terrorism, fast, effectively and if need be brutally. Let them know that teh price of a terrosit attack is too high. Nearly 3000 were killed on 9-11, there should be at least 30,000 dead terroist by now. An eye for an eye.
“If there’s anything that requires our attention, a war is declared on it. Terrorism, drugs, poverty, doesn’t matter. “Declare war.” “
When a group declares war on you and backs it up by actually killing large numbers of your population it is not “mad” to declare war on them in return. Actually, it’s only redundant–you can ignore them all you want, clamp your hands over your ears and sing “la la la, can’t hear you” but you are still at war.
The reason that you, an intelligent man, can’t come up with the magic solution to this problem is because there isn’t one. Jesus will not save us, the UFOs will not save us, a little girl with a strongly worded letter to the editor will not save us. There are certain realities in this world, such as the fact that when our flesh is pierced we bleed and die and some folks will use this fact to get things they otherwise would not have. 10,000+ years of civilization, religion, morality and philosophy haven’t erased this and no thinking outside the box will do so either, even if we want it to very much.
Was it Phillip K Ðìçk who said “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”?
It’s funny because Peter’s second post is really the only thing that resonates in this whole talkback for me. Violence begets violence and the only way to stop it is to stop yourself. You have no control over the terrorists. The only one you can control is yourself. So if you want to hunt down the leaders of a terrorist movement, fine, but realize that until there is a spiritual paradigm shift there are going to be more to take their place.
If you hit someone on the head with a hammer, chances are they’re going to find a hammer of their own and bop you on the head as a gift for your own gift of violence upon them. If you happen to kill them with your first blow, then you can pretty much expect that a friend or family member will seek you out and offer you violence in return. So when as a race will we finally start believing in the fact of the matter, which is this: If I hit my fellow man on the head with a hammer, it’s the SAME as hitting myself on the head with a hammer, and seeing as how I’d never hit myself on the head with a hammer, hitting someone else makes me look like a crazy person.
But hey, if you like getting hit in the head with the hammers of war, by all means continue.
PAD wrote: >>I’m saying that humanity is caught in a cycle of violence being answered with violence being answered with violence being answered with violence.
Sean added: >>It’s funny because Peter’s second post is really the only thing that resonates in this whole talkback for me. Violence begets violence and the only way to stop it is to stop yourself.
I’m sorry, I disagree with you both. There will always be aggressors — people who want something you have, or hate you because of who you are or what you believe. Always. You can respond four ways. You can stand by passively and try to reason with them at an intellectual level to cease their aggression; you can ignore them and hope they go away or attack someone else; you can try to bluff them that you are powerful and thus scare them off; or you can dig in and fight.
Let’s look at history. Has any of the first two pacifist methods ever stopped a truly strong-willed agressor? No. The Hitlers, Stalins, Amins, and Husseins of the world steamroll right over such “weaklings” at the first opportunity. They do not respect, nor do they fear such people. The third method, deterrence, sometimes works — but only if the perceived power behind the deterrence is real. If the aggressor can find a way to successfully circumnavigate the deterring power (The French Maginot Line during World War II, for example), the aggressor will do so and attack.
The fourth method is to attack the aggressor — preferably on their own territory (taking the fight to them, so to speak). It is the least desireable response, since there will inevitably be a human price to pay on your side, but it may be the only way to lessen or eliminate the threat.
No determined aggressor in history has ever been “peaced” into submission, and to believe this is possible is to be naive, in my opinion. “Peace through strength” is not the foolish slogan of some “warmonger” — it’s a reality we must live with in this world (and perhaps, as we may someday find out, throughout the universe). The Swiss, who have been successfully “neutral” in one of the most war-torn areas of the globe in the past few hundred years, have only been successfully neutral because their deterrence has teeth. Their populace is heavily armed at the individual level, and that fact, coupled with the mountainous region their country enjoys, has seriously deterred all comers.
This, unfortunately, is reality, and it is what we must take into consideration when dealing with terrorism, in my opinion.
Russ Maheras
“Jesus will not save us…”
I suspect there’s a couple hundred million Christians out there who would disagree with you.
Hey…maybe they’ll declare war on you…
PAD
Sean: “Violence begets violence and the only way to stop it is to stop yourself. You have no control over the terrorists. The only one you can control is yourself. So if you want to hunt down the leaders of a terrorist movement, fine, but realize that until there is a spiritual paradigm shift there are going to be more to take their place.”
Islam is going through their own period of the Crusades right now (“Infidels must be converted or destroyed”). It’s not universal, but until Islam gets rid of this fanatical element, there is not going to be peace with Islamic terrorists. It cannot come from us, since this is essentially an internal problem of Islam that we can never control or influence effectively. In the meantime, all we can do is make sure our hammer is bigger. There was a great line in Babylon 5 when they realized there was no alternative to war: “Sometimes, peace is another word for surrender.”
I would love to have peace with these people, but when they intentionally target civilians, I’m not going to stand back and say, “Gee, I wonder if we deserved that”.
Posted by Peter David at March 14, 2004 01:05 PM
“Jesus will not save us…”
I suspect there’s a couple hundred million Christians out there who would disagree with you.
Hey…maybe they’ll declare war on you…
That’s not a fair statement. Of course the Christians aren’t going to declare war on you because you disagree with them. That’s not to say that people saying that they are Christians might not do that, but then they would not be acting as true Christians.
Do not confuse the faith itself with people who call themselves faithful. There are plenty of people who commit acts of evil in the name of religion. Most observers make the mistake of equating the evil with the religion, when what they should realise is that those people are not following the tennets of the faith that they claim to believe in. Thus, they are not members of that faith, no matter what they call themselves.
No one ever saw Jesus pick up a sword and cut up some pagans. The Crusades may have been done in his name, but I can assure you they weren’t done with his blessing.
I did 20 years in the USAF and have a degree in Arabic. I’ll let you do the math. There’s a book that has just come out. It’s one that Peter didn’t write but I recommend it anyway. It’s called “A Concise History of the Crusades” and it lays to rest a lot of the misconceptions that folks have about the Crusades by revealing, backing up, such things as:
Peter, fortunately, me, and the rest of the Spanish citizens, know that the American war to Irak is not a thing that all the American people are backing.
Fortunately.
“Jesus will not save us…”
I suspect there’s a couple hundred million Christians out there who would disagree with you.
Hey…maybe they’ll declare war on you…
PAD
Perhaps in the Bizarro World where armies of the West subjugate all who dare to question their religion. Since the last I checked I’m still living on a spherical world I’ll sleep soundly.
At any rate I was speaking of Jesus saving us from the earthly turmoils of today. Even the hundreds of millions of warrior Christians you postulate would hardly expect Jesus to come down and solve, say, the trade deficet. In fact, as I understand it, the real apocalyptic ones say that things will get much much worse before they get better (Mark of the Beast and all).
“So if you want to hunt down the leaders of a terrorist movement, fine, but realize that until there is a spiritual paradigm shift there are going to be more to take their place.”
I disagree. History is littered with the bodies of failed rebellions, failed regimes, failed causes. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had millions of loyal committed followers. Look how long they kept on fighting once the leaders were taken out.
Take away any hope of victory through terrorism and replace it with a hope for better times through better means. While there will always be terrorists of some kind, organized large scale networks can be successfully fought.
>B>”So if you want to hunt down the leaders of a terrorist movement, fine, but realize that until there is a spiritual paradigm shift there are going to be more to take their place.”
I disagree. History is littered with the bodies of failed rebellions, failed regimes, failed causes. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had millions of loyal committed followers. Look how long they kept on fighting once the leaders were taken out.
Take away any hope of victory through terrorism and replace it with a hope for better times through better means. While there will always be terrorists of some kind, organized large scale networks can be successfully fought.
I think there are difference between what you pointing to in history and what is going on today. First, there is no single terrorist. Terrorist are multifaced serving multiple causes. Nothing on earth will ever cover all those needs.
Second, different motivations. Hitler and the Nazi’s were very interested in power within this world. Imperial Japan, likewise looked to power within this world. Certain Islamic groups are not about power, but about ideas. Their ideas must reign or the alternative of death is better. In fact, when you believe that dying gives you better rewards than living, it’s hard to crush that movement. Killing them does serve to inspire more. One also must recongnize that Japan was infused with Western ideas so much so that we reshaped their culture. I’m not sure our multi-cultural society would tolerate a gov’t that tries to reshape Islamic culture, (never mind how they’d feel about it.)