Absolutely hilarious column at the following website wherein the author, after a month of gay marriages in San Francisco, demands to know where his promised apocalypse is in a tone evocative of Marvin the Martian perplexed over the absence of the Earth-shattering kaboom.
http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
PAD
• 
“Whether you choose to believe it or not, many people don’t want to see gay marriage either.”
Not to drag out the whole civil rights horse again and beat it with a steel pipe, but many people in the Alabama area (if memory serves) didn’t want to see the black folk…well, anywhere where white people were.
Personally, although I’m straight and happily married, I have no interest in seeing heterosexual couples swaping spit or running nude in public, and I wouldn’t expect that gay marriage would cause homosexuals to suddenly start gettin’ it on in your local mall.
Ben, yeah, some people can indeed control/alter their heartbeat from what it does on its own, but they don’t have to stop and think “okay, pump out blood, pump out blood, pump out fish, uh oh”. There are many things we have the power of choice over, there are many things we do not.
Relevant paraphrase, but not really: Give me the strength to change what I must and the tolerance to accept what I can’t change.
Monkeys
John David Ward,
I don’t agree with everything you said, but your post makes for an interesting read. :0)
You don’t have a conscious choice on whether or not you breathe. Let’s be realistic here.
I’m well aware of that. You’re the one who said, and I quote, “everything we do is a choice.”
I brought up several counterexamples, and you have agreed they are not choices.
So how exactly is this supporting your original point?
Now, of course, you’re saying that “everything we do involves choices”, which is a very different argument and one not germane to the issue of gay marriage. Not that it appears to be stopping you.
Christ, it’s the Big Lie technique right here on our stage…
TWL
I brought up several counterexamples, and you have agreed they are not choices.
Actually, he said that they were not conscious choices, not that they weren’t choices. Doesn’t disprove what he said at all.
“Not to drag out the whole civil rights horse again and beat it with a steel pipe, but many people in the Alabama area (if memory serves) didn’t want to see the black folk…well, anywhere where white people were.”
How did I know this was going to come out? Hmmm.
Racism is totally wrong and should not be compared to gay marriage.
How can you compare what black people had to go through to gay marriage discussions?
Me:
“Nobody has a legal right to not be offended or to avoid seeing particular things they don’t want to see.”
Novafan:
What a bunch of crock.
How many states have laws against indecent exposure, etc.?
Pretty much all of ’em.
Guess what? The stated reason isn’t “people don’t want to see that.”
Whether you choose to believe it or not, many people don’t want to see gay marriage either.
I completely believe that.
I simply don’t find it a remotely compelling argument.
As others have pointed out to you repeatedly, there were lots of people in the past who didn’t want to see interracial marriage either. Some people still don’t.
They don’t get to choose what other people can do simply because they don’t want to see it. They are more than welcome to lock themselves in their house, stick their fingers in their ears and hum real loud. They’re just not allowed to tell people “you can’t do that because it makes me uncomfortable.”
Maybe that’s why a majority of the states have laws against it? Nah, that couldn’t be the reason could it. These lawmakers just decided to make these laws for no particular reason except to persecute gay people. Is that what you believe?
Uh … no. It’s not. I don’t recall saying anything close to that, in point of fact.
But what a staggering display of logical incoherence. I’m deeply impressed.
TWL
Racism is totally wrong and should not be compared to gay marriage.
And the comparison is invalid, apparently, only because of your say-so.
Y’know, that makes me uncomfortable. People don’t want to see you saying such things.
Thus, by your own logic, you should now be forced to stop doing it.
Isn’t that lovely? Mmm?
(Sorry, had to get that back to Marvin…)
TWL
“I brought up several counterexamples, and you have agreed they are not choices.”
No I didn’t say that.
The counterexample you brought up about breathing is not a conscious choice.
The other items you mentioned do involve choices, as I mentioned in my last post.
Hey, I thought you were choosing to ignore me. :0)
Actually, he said that they were not conscious choices, not that they weren’t choices. Doesn’t disprove what he said at all.
Interesting argument.
How exactly would you define an unconscious choice? Unconscious actions, sure, a dime a dozen. I’m having trouble coming up with any example of making a choice that isn’t conscious, though.
TWL
I amazed at the irony of TWL claiming that someone has shown a staggering display of logical incoherence and then proceeds to demonstrate his own logical incoherence in the next post!
“And the comparison is invalid, apparently, only because of your say-so.
Y’know, that makes me uncomfortable. People don’t want to see you saying such things.
Thus, by your own logic, you should now be forced to stop doing it.
“
Even if I was gay, I would not compare my plight to the suffering that black people went through. There is no comparison.
Is there a law against me saying there is no comparison between racism and gay marriage? If there is, then I’ll stop saying it, especially since you’ve diagnosed my logic.
“It’s ridiculous to call something natural just because animals do it. Animals aren’t people.”
But, people are animals. A chimp isn’t a gorrila or a cat or an elk, but all are animals and all come from nature. I do agree that because homosexuality occurs in humans, that makes it natural and there isn’t much need to go into what other species do (although, I think I started that here)to determine if it’s natural.
“Put a house cat in the arctic and it’ll be a race between freezing to death or starving first. Put a person there and he’ll adapt and build shelters.”
That’s not entirely accurate. It depends on the house cat and it depends on the person. Some house cats come from breeds that are well adapted to cold, and could feasibly figure out how to survive and find shelter/warmth (when have you known a house cat to *not* find the warmest most comfy spot to sleep?). If you took an innercity kid from somewhere down south who had never seen snow or trees, I dare say he wouldn’t figure out how to make shelter and hunt for food before succumbing to the elements.
As far as mimicking what other species do, I think it comes down to whether or not it’s a fairly specific trait, like chimps eating smaller monkeys, or a more generalized trait that many species engage in, like breathing (I know, bad example). Or perhaps a better example would be, yes cats lick themselves to clean themselves, we also clean ourselves (but not by licking). Keeping oneself clean is natural. (I don’t think I’m articulating well right now, sorry.)
Monkeys.
I just realized that monogamy and life mating are basically the same thing. I have no idea how I missed that earlier. I guess I wasn’t thinking straight. I still bet that one would be hard pressed to find an animal that is monogamous, and practices homosexuality; and humans don’t count.
“Wow, I read this wrong I guess.
Rosie weds longtime girlfriend, slams bush
“
I didn’t catch this my first read through. I was thinking, there goes Rosie slamming bush again. Big deal right since she slams bush anytime she gets a chance. How many times has she slammed bush anyways?
Then it hit me.
Duh!
On the subject of choice: do we chose who we love? True, if you are in love with someone, you can chose to ignore it or supress it until it fades. But, can you make yourself love someone? Can you really chose to love a particular person? You can chose not to pursue it, but that’s not the same as chosing who to love in the first place.
As far as not comparing racism to not letting gays get married, I’m not sure I see a huge difference, and I would appreciate it if someone who does think this way would explain it to me (I’m being sincere, honest).
Monkeys.
Ben, I believe certain species of birds might. Macaws, for example (of which my wife and I have four). They mate for life, and some of the same sex have been known to mate for life too. As far as reasons, they could range from true homosexuality (finding the same sex attractive), to a dominance issue (like in cats, males will often mount each other to exert their dominance and otherwise say “all the women are mine, you aren’t man enough”), to companionship.
“I would not compare my plight to the suffering that black people went through. There is no comparison.”
That kind of depends on your scope of both groups. If you look at the plight of black people in this country since it’s inception and compare that with the treatment of homosexuals, what blacks went through seems far worse (partly because it’s easier to hide being gay than it is to hide being black). But, compare the plight of both groups throughout history all over the worldand I think it’s a different story. Blacks weren’t horribly treated, discriminated against and enslaved everywhere, but pretty much if it was discovered you were gay, you were discriminated against, ostracized or killed. Of course, there are lots of exceptions to that too.
Monkeys
“As far as not comparing racism to not letting gays get married, I’m not sure I see a huge difference, and I would appreciate it if someone who does think this way would explain it to me (I’m being sincere, honest).”
I can try since you asked nicely, hope it helps.
Black people were brought into slavery, raped, whipped, and made to serve their masters. They basically had no rights whatsoever. Even after they were given their freedom from slavery, they were still not free. I could add a lot more, but I’m getting tired. Sorry.
How does this compare to what gay people are going through when trying to get married to another gay person?
Does it make us a bigot or a racist if we don’t want to see it happen?
Oh, Novafan, thank you for attempting to explain things. I had not read your explanation before my last post (you must have posted while I was typing). I would like to hear what you’d have to say concerning what I mentioned (about looking at both blacks and gays across the world throughout history as opposed to just in the U.S.)
Thanks for being polite.
Monkeys
**Even if I was gay, I would not compare my plight to the suffering that black people went through. There is no comparison.
Is there a law against me saying there is no comparison between racism and gay marriage? If there is, then I’ll stop saying it, especially since you’ve diagnosed my logic.**
well, there’s no law, but, chew on this:
People are saying they want Gays to have something that is seperate, but supposedly equal to heterosexuals.
They are telling a segment of Americans that they, Gays, are not as deserving of rights as the rest of the country.
This Adminstration is trying to write discrimination into the constitution.
The head of the NAACP believes thats wrong. He’s telling President Bush so.
The supreme court of Massachusetts, in their decision, said, “history has proven that seperate is rarely, if ever, equal.”
I think the fact that the administration is trying to write seperate but equal into the constitution lends a little bit of gravitas for comparisons of civil rights here.
The things that Blacks had to struggle against were awful. However, they fought for their civil rights and they over-turned a great injustice committed against them through civil means. They fought against unjust laws and restrictions to get the civil rights that they, as human beings, deserved.
This is what the Gay marriage proponents are trying to do now. Get the rights that they are entitled to as Human beings, and as Americans.
So you don’t approve of homosexuality. Does that mean that homosexuals should be denied rights?
Adam Schwartz
“But, compare the plight of both groups throughout history all over the worldand I think it’s a different story. Blacks weren’t horribly treated, discriminated against and enslaved everywhere, but pretty much if it was discovered you were gay, you were discriminated against, ostracized or killed. Of course, there are lots of exceptions to that too.”
What happened to black men and women is well documented in all history books.
Is there similar documentation as to what happened or might have happened to gay people throughout history? If so, I would like to read it.
“Is there similar documentation as to what happened or might have happened to gay people throughout history? If so, I would like to read it.
Good point. I’m not sure, but I will look into it over the next few days if I can find the time and let you know. But at least in recent history, there’s all the hate crimes agains homosexuals that have been in the news that have taken place in the U.S. (no, I don’t have any links handy, althought Matthew Shepard comes to mind as one instance), and slightly before that was the whole Hitler treatment of known homosexuals. More than that will require the aforementioned searching.
Monkeys.
“So you don’t approve of homosexuality. Does that mean that homosexuals should be denied rights?”
Homosexuals have the exact same rights as any American has. You’re asking for them to be granted extra rights because they think they deserve it.
This reminds me of Star Wars episode II where the bad guy asks for extra power to build an army for the republic that he will abdicate when the crisis has been averted.
Who’s to stop two people who aren’t gay from saying they are so they can get these extra rights too? All they would have to do is have someone give them a marriage license and poof, they are married.
*As far as not comparing racism to not letting gays get married, I’m not sure I see a huge difference, and I would appreciate it if someone who does think this way would explain it to me (I’m being sincere, honest).*
Let me start off by saying that I don’t oppose gay marriage (although I think homosexuality is wrong) for two reasons. First, because I believe there are far more important things for politicians to be doing than banning gay marriage. The second reason takes a bit of explaining. The purpose of government is to protect the citizens from other citizens or other outside forces. This is why abortion is legal; embryos aren’t considered citizens. Homosexuality only harms those who willingly participate (under normal circumstances). So government should not legislate against homosexuality. In other words: I don’t believe in legal paternalism. Now to get back to ansering your question. Being black isn’t wrong, homosexuality is. That is our logic. People can’t choose not to be black(not that they need to), but people can choose not to be a practicing homosexual.
Hey Nova, if you don’t want to see married gays, don’t look at them. How on earth does it affect you, at all if they are married?
Oooo, those two gay people are out in public together and holding hands with rings. So what? If you don’t like it, just look away.
Aside from upsetting your delicate sensiblities, how does a gay marriage affect you at all? Affecting your sensibiliteis is no reason to disallow it. Rap music upsets my delicate sensibilities but it’s not going anywhere, so I don’t watch it and tune it out when I hear it in public. As a song I like says “Just cuz you don’t like it, don’t mean it ain’t no good.” Which means we all have to learn to live with the fact that there are things out there we’re not gonna like and we have to deal with it.
Just tell us one _tangiable_ way that a gay marriage would affect your life, aside from making you feel bad.
StS
Quoth Nova:
“”So you don’t approve of homosexuality. Does that mean that homosexuals should be denied rights?””
Homosexuals have the exact same rights as any American has. You’re asking for them to be granted extra rights because they think they deserve it.”
Well if they have the exact same rights, then they should have the exact same right to be married. Sounds like we’re in agreement Nova.
StS
“Well if they have the exact same rights, then they should have the exact same right to be married. Sounds like we’re in agreement Nova.”
Why does it seem like you and the other guy that’s ignoring me have to twist my words to try and get your point across?
Giving marriage rights to gay people is giving them extra rights beyond what every normal citizen has.
So no, we aren’t in agreement.
Quoth Nova:
“Giving marriage rights to gay people is giving them extra rights beyond what every normal citizen has.”
So normal people don’t have the right to be married? If that’s the case someone had better tell them that.
If normal citizes DO have the right to be married, then how is it giving gays that same right an extra right?
StS
“Aside from upsetting your delicate sensiblities, how does a gay marriage affect you at all? Affecting your sensibiliteis is no reason to disallow it. Rap music upsets my delicate sensibilities but it’s not going anywhere, so I don’t watch it and tune it out when I hear it in public. As a song I like says “Just cuz you don’t like it, don’t mean it ain’t no good.” Which means we all have to learn to live with the fact that there are things out there we’re not gonna like and we have to deal with it.
Just tell us one _tangiable_ way that a gay marriage would affect your life, aside from making you feel bad.”
Nobody shoves Rap music in my face and says “you shall agree to this or else”
I can avoid rap music like the plague if I want to. I happen to like some rap music though, :0).
I can’t, however, avoid gay marriage since it’s being shoved in my face.
How about my asking you this since you think I should just look away:
You don’t like the way marriage laws are in this country. Why don’t you move to a country that has no problem with it instead of telling people to look the other way?
Nova, I’m going to have to agree with Sneezy. How is giving gays the right to marry giving them rights that the rest of us don’t have?
“Nova, I’m going to have to agree with Sneezy. How is giving gays the right to marry giving them rights that the rest of us don’t have? “
They can marry anyone they want to, just like the rest of us in America can, as long as it’s someone of the opposite sex.
Bah, I give up.
Legalizing gay marriage doesn’t give anyone extra rights. No-one will have more rights than anyone else. You’ll have the right to marry someone of your own sex, too, Novafan. Not that you’ll excersize it, but it’s your right. Happy?
Rob
Who’s to stop two people who aren’t gay from saying they are so they can get these extra rights too? All they would have to do is have someone give them a marriage license and poof, they are married.
That’s a ridiculous statement. Sure, they could get married to another man to take advantage of the situation, but really how many of us heterosexuals are chomping at the bit to marry another man for an extra tax break? Don’t you think most of us straight guys would find that concept just a little too freaky? Why not find a woman you don’t love and marry her instead to get the tax breaks? Even if she’s homely, I’m much more comfortable with that. I guess that’s okay morally though just as long as its not a same sex marriage.
Do you think that Sodom and Gomorrah might have been destroyed because all of the inhabitants, except for a few that were taken out of the cities, were unnatural in their lusts and indulged in immoral and abominable practices?
That raises an important question. I know what they were probably doing in Sodom, but what was going on in Gomorrah? Does it happen in prison a lot but not talked about?
Who’s to stop two people who aren’t gay from saying they are so they can get these extra rights too? All they would have to do is have someone give them a marriage license and poof, they are married.
I’m married, but I sure don’t think I have a whole lot of extra rights. Which extras are you taliking about, because I seem to be missing out!
Just for your info, Immigration works very hard to ferret out marriage of convenience between heterosexual couples for citizenship purposes. As far as I can see this is the only example of getting extra rights when you get married, but it’s only extra for the person trying to get in this country.
The way I read it, it seems that straight men and women would also have the right to marry members of the same gender. As such, gays wouldn’t be getting any extra rights…
Nobody shoves Rap music in my face and says “you shall agree to this or else”
I can avoid rap music like the plague if I want to. I happen to like some rap music though, :0).
I can’t, however, avoid gay marriage since it’s being shoved in my face.
Been forced to go to a lot of Gay Weddings have you? Are they breaking into your house to perform the ceremony? I really don’t understand how this is being shoved in your face any more than the aforementioned rap music or the way other people choose to live their lives. People with sayings about their religious beliefs bumper-stickered on their cars, broadcast on TV and coming to my home to sell me Jesus are far more in my face, yet I don’t think they should have their rights taken away.
How about my asking you this since you think I should just look away:
You don’t like the way marriage laws are in this country. Why don’t you move to a country that has no problem with it instead of telling people to look the other way?
Ah, the classic “If you don’t love it, leave it” arguement. Always comes up with people who can’t stand another person to have a differing viewpoint. Ever consider your own advice? Telling people to leave the country when they don’t agree with you is so against every notion this nation was founded on its just mind-boggling.
Just imagine how great this country would be if we could remove everyone with differing viewpoints. No gays, no communists, no blacks, no jews, no muslims, no polish, no liberals, etc. Sounds great doesn’t it! Hey, wasn’t there somewhere like that in Europe a while ago? Boy, the good ol’ days I tell ya.
Quoth Nova:
“I can’t, however, avoid gay marriage since it’s being shoved in my face.
How about my asking you this since you think I should just look away:”
And I ask how it’s being shoved in your face? Are they getting married in your living room? Are they comming up to you in a diner and going “Hi! We’re Married”? Are they popping into your cube at work (if you work in a cube, that is) and having their honeymoon? Are they making you buy them wedding gifts? They’re only getting “in your face” because you’re choosing to watch the news reports about it and listen to those scream about it.
Avoiding it is simple, if the news comes on about it, change the channel. If it’s in the paper, don’t read the article. If it’s on the radio, change the station. It’s that simple. It’s not in your face unless you let it, or if they are walking up to you personally and waving their wedding bands in your actual face, not your metaphoricle “world-view/tv/radio” face.
Quoth Nova:
“You don’t like the way marriage laws are in this country. Why don’t you move to a country that has no problem with it instead of telling people to look the other way?”
Ah that old debate ploy. Well it seems that a lot of people do support gay marriage. If it becomes the law, will _you_ move to a country that disallows it? Or will you stay here?
I’m staying right here, becuase I like it here in the US. It just needs some minor changes.
Quoth Nova:
“They can marry anyone they want to, just like the rest of us in America can, as long as it’s someone of the opposite sex.
Bah, I give up.”
Don’t you see the logic bomb in that statement? They can marry anyone they want to. Except the person they want to. That would be a denial of a right.
I’d like to ask again, tho, how a gay couple getting married affects you in any way, since you haven’t yet. But you’ve given up. Oh well. Perhaps someone else can enlighten us how then.
StS
Rich, you’re on the same page as me, but with faster keyboard skills and a bit more concise. I salute you. 🙂
StS
You know, i once had a history teacher who said that Freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State were put in the constitution to prevent this very thing from happening… to prevent any one major religious group from legislating morality.
Deciding laws based on the Holy Bible is by defination, unconstitutional.
If the Government decides that it’s perfectly ok for gay couples to legally get married, that’s just fine. If a particular church decides not to perfor a gay marriage ceremony because it’s not in their religious doctorine, that’s ok with me too… however, no church should demand of the Government to deny gay marriage because said chruch doesn’t believe in it, nor should the government force any church to perform a gay marriage ceremony.
And lastly, on the subject of being gay (which I’m not, so this is all speculation), I believe that you can no more choose to be gay than you can choose to be born black, white, or whatever. And if that is the case, then that makes gayness very much natural (and thusly, an Act of God).
Well, o.k…..if you’re willing to deny me rights becasue I’m gay than I’d like to say a couple of things.
Like I said in one of the other posts, if it’s a whole “sanctity of marriage” thing, I’d like to see a constitutional ban on divorces. I mean, let’s take it to the logical conclusion here. If you’re saying that gays marrying will destroy the concept of marriage, then SURELY divorce did it before then?
If I can’t get married, I’d like to make sure my tax dollars don’t go to fund a few things:
1.)The Military. I know “don’t ask, don’t tell, but I’d still be stuck with having to deal with my “hetero” soldier friends telling me about their weekend and not being allowed to share. I know they defend me, but so do the police and I’m allowed to be an openly gay cop.
2.)Schools. I’m not using them. Since I can’t really adopt children or have one with my partner becasue of people who think homosexuality is “icky”, I’d like to make sure my money doesn’t fund something that isn’t going to be used by me or my family.(O.K. I used the schools for 11 years. I’m willing to pay my share for that long but that’s it and it’s been 16 years since then, which means I’m owed some serious money here.) That brings me to…
3.)Child welfare services. Normally, I’d just say welfare, but I DO realize that people would lump unemployment benfits in with that and I have no problems with that.(I have NEVER benn on unemployment even though I could’ve. It just didn’t feel right to me.) Again, not allowed to have kids becasue I’m single and gay, I’d like to not pay taxes that support this service.(For the people that would think otherwise, I have NOTHING against children, I’m just using these as examples of things that my tax dollars go towards that have no bearing on me becasue of bias.)
I could go on but let’s face it, really. There’s a LOT of things that my taxes pay for and I’m NOT getting equal representation as compared to the heterosexuals and I’m tired of paying for the mistakes heterosexuals make. Just give me my money, please.
Peace,
Larry
“How can you compare what black people had to go through to gay marriage discussions? “
I agree with you. It’s typical. If someone against same-sex marriage mentions pedophilia or bëšŧìálìŧÿ, then we’re using a “horrible slippery slope” arguement, yet the pro same-sex marriage size constantly does the exact same thing, and compares those against it to nazi’s and KKK members. It’s the typical elitism on the left. You either agree with us, or you’re a “moron” (someone actually said that up the thread). Or when someone on another thread mentioned that 46% of the people in the country “redneck inbreads” and idiots for voting for Bush. Well, that’s why. Even if people agree with the policies of the left, they sure hate being told how stupid and ignorant they are by a bunch of college students and professors (most of whom have never lived in the real world) on a daily basis.
It’s also funny, that the gay crowd seems to eager to either attack the bisexual group, or just ignore them. My wife is bisexual, and I know the treatment she’s gotten. And I see some of the comments in this thread, and they are every bit as hatefull as some of the attitudes people claim are helds against homosexuals. Nice.
Sort of like when I see blacks making racist comments about asians or hispanics. There are some groups you’d expect to know better from experience…
Jerry
Speaking as a straight single male, I can say without reservation that I have no problem with gay marriage or homosexuality in general at all.
It means more women available for the rest of us! (And they’re so grateful to find smart, good-looking guys who aren’t gay!)
As for gay women? Well, that’s good too!
[Okay. I’m now taking my tongue out of my cheek and switching off my Howard Stern chip-sorry if I offended]
David
Face it, folks. If people are trying to control other people’s behavior even if it has absolutely no impact on them, they’re operating either from fear of that which is unlike them, or they simply want to control. They can paint it up in posey and say it’s morality or God’s will or ucky, but ultimately it’s their failing.
Unfortunately, getting them to respond in a rational way that uses anything beyond opinion/faith as a logical baseline is like asking that queer monkey mentioned towards the start of the thread for a philosophical explanation of why he’s balling his buddy.
Novafan: You mentioned wanting to know if there were any histories to support a comparison between slavery and homosexuality. Here’s a few links that will at give you a start for historical purposes:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayhistbib.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-int.html
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gayhist.htm
The first Fordham link takes you to a partially annotated bibliography while the other two links take you to on-line databases. The last link goes to a short article about China. There are thousands more sites and books to look at — a quick ‘homosexuality history’ search on google will bring up a ton of stuff to sort through.
Take care, Jon
Sorry, I didn’t read any posts after the first 5 or 6.
But all in all, a number of points continue to be addressed (and rightfully so).
I just wanted to add a few things.
First off, that idiot pastor of the church here in the Denver Metro that posted the “The Jews killed Jesus” sign… apologized.
Although, considering he has posted similar signs in the past toward homosexuals, etc, it’s a rather empty apology imo.
And, just up the road, a place by the name of Shotgun Willie’s (strip club / semi-restaurant type of place) has on their sign “Our Passion is Hot Women”.
Of course, the reverse side also says “CU (Colorado University) fans welcome!”
Anyways. I downloaded a recent episode of Real Time with Bill Maher (from the week before the Oscars).
It makes for great watching, especially with Ian McKellan and alot of discussion about gay issues.
One thing that Bill Maher commented on at the end was the fact that homosexual marriage will not lead to bëšŧìálìŧÿ.
And to paraphrase him: “Did allowing women to vote lead to hamster voting? No.”
Ben Lesar wrote:
“Being black isn’t wrong, homosexuality is. That is our logic.”
While I recognize that Mr. Lesar is not allowing himself to be blinded by a single source of perspective (and, Mr. Lesar, I believe that you are to be applauded for that) I do find the above quote troubling.
Here’s why. We have alot of things in the USA that are wrong and have a measureable negative impact on millions of people. Foremost on my mind would be “outsourcing” American jobs. I wonder where my Constitutional Amendment giving that practive ‘separate but equall’ protection would end up. My point is that this practice has a measurable negative impact whereas homosexuality does not. I’ll grant the cases where hearts are broken, diseases are spread, and domestic abuse occurs, but I think that we can all agree that any and all of those things can occurr in any relationship.
Again, I believe that Mr. Lesar is to be commended for balancing his perspectives and this post is in no way meant to take a shot at him. I guess what I’d like to see is measurable evidence that homosexuality is wrong becauseall I’ve heard thus far is a panic reaction from people whose ability to think is far inferior to Mr. Lesards.
Salutations,
Mitch
…And where I got ‘Lesard’ from I’ll never know.
Apologies,
Mitch
Um, my ex-girlfriend (who I’m still friends with) is bisexual — and it’s very, very difficult for her. She doesn’t know if she’ll ever be able to commit to one gender, she doesn’t know how or when to bring it up when on a date, she doesn’t even decide when she’s attracted to men or to women. For the lucky bisexuals, I suppose, bisexuality is choosing which gender they want. For the unlucky, it can be continuing uncertainity about what gender they find attractive. It’s not some pornstar-type life, or having more choices than everyone else.
I’ve always wondered if that was the case. Were I single I would set very very few rules on the kinds of women I would be willing to date (being a firm believer in the old adage that Beggers Cannot Be Choosers) but I would never knowingly date a committed bisexual. Monogamy is hard enough for some folks with only half the planet as a potential candidate for infidelity. If one is so broad minded as to be attrated to both genders there would always be something missing in any relationship with just one. I suppose some folks can make a go of it with an “open relationship” but my observation of such things is that they tend to go down in flames more often than not (and not just the usual ugly breakup but big spectacular Hindenberg “Oh the humanity” flames).
Slightly off topic–once gay marriage becomes a reality (as it certainly will) by what right will we have to outlaw polygamy? The laws against it seem to me to be purely religious based and the best arguments for gay marriage–ie “Who are we to deny love?” would equally apply. I don’t agree with the slippery slopers who argue that we will soon be having Man/Sheep hot love action in St Patrick’s Cathedral but polygamy will have to at least be addressed.
Novafan (no relation) wrote: “Even if I was gay, I would not compare my plight to the suffering that black people went through. There is no comparison.”
If I am reading correctly, Novafan objects to comparing the suffering of black people (due to slavery, segregation, etc.) with the suffering of gay people.
There may be folks who are saying that the sufferings are comparable. (Certainly in one respect they are: the right to marry was denied to interracial couples in the same way it is at present denied to gay couples.)
But in general, the argument I have heard made is not that the sufferings are comparable but that the reasons offered by those who oppose gay rights are similar (often identical) to arguments used by those who opposed the civil rights movement.
Time after time I hear people using the same arguments today to oppose equal rights for gays that were used decades ago to oppose equal rights for blacks. Even the argument that gays are asking for “extra rights”, which Novafan makes in this thread, echoes a familiar line from the anti-civil-rights folks of the 1950s and 1960s for why they opposed civil rights laws and government efforts to end segregation.
It is worth looking back at past political struggles, such as the civil rights movements, to learn which arguments were right and which ones were wrong. Discredited arguments should be discarded as trash, not recycled decades later in another attempt to deny people dignity and equal treatment.
You don’t have a conscious choice on whether or not you breathe. Let’s be realistic here.
Well, if you want to be realistic, you actually DO have a conscious choice on whether or not you breathe. You can stop breathing any time you wish simply by holding your breath. That’s a choice. Now, if you’re talking about stopping breathing for any considerable length of time then you’re risking death or at the very least brain damage. Just because it’s an autonomic response doesn’t mean you have no control over it.
You don’t like the way marriage laws are in this country. Why don’t you move to a country that has no problem with it instead of telling people to look the other way?
You know, once upon a time, people decided that the anti-miscegenation laws in this country were wrong. did they leave? no, they fought against the unjust laws and got them changed.
Once upon a time, people thought that the voting laws in this country were discriminatory. did they move to a country that had different voting laws? no, they campaigned for their rights, fought against an unjust law, and won their voting rights, both women and minorities.
Nowadays, its discriminatory to keep the right of marriage from two people who love each other because you think it’s icky, or because YOUR religion forbids it.
(by the way, how about those homosexuals marriages snactified by the church in the 4th century>)
It’s not just wanting to be married. They want to be able to have visiting rights to their loved ones in the hospital. they want incontestable next-of-kin status. they want joint-filing rights on their taxes. they want non-biological adoptive parent rights.
so, novafan, there you go. theres a bunch of rights that homosexuals are denied in addition to being able to get married. Those are the rights that Gays want to make them EQUAL to everyone in America.
Adam Schwartz