Am I paranoid over the possibility of increasing incidents of anti-Semitic violence?
No.
Am I concerned?
Sure.
The watchword of the Holocaust is “Never again.” Look what happened in Germany: Violence against minorities. People deprived of liberty without due process. The existence of organized anti-Semitic hate groups. Citizens who had committed no crime, rounded up and stuck into relocation camps.
Except…gee…over the last sixty years, those have all happened here as well. And now our commander in chief is suggesting changing the Constitution to formalize a bigotry against gays…a people who, y’know, were just adored by Hitler (who was, by the way, a very religious individual.)
So don’t tell me I’m overreacting, and don’t tell me that such things could never happen here, because such things *have* happened here. The only question is, will they happen again and to what degree.
Now me, I don’t especially care to find out. Don’t get me wrong: It’s not like I’m lying awake at night, listening for the sounds of rocks being thrown through my front windows while people scream “Dirty Jews!” (the incident which–when it happened to him–prompted my paternal grandfather to pack up his family and move the hëll out of pre-WWII Berlin while it was still possible to get out.) But there continues to be a nagging concern in the back of my mind, and frankly, considering a grand thousands-of-years tradition of people trying to kill Jews, I don’t think the concern is exactly misplaced.
PAD
• 
You actually have pretty good reason to be concerned, though it’s unlikely that the attacks will come from any Republican Christians hopped up on communion wine, fresh from recent viewing of THE PASSION. If I were Jewish and sending my kids off to college I’d be nervous about the hostility they will face from some Muslim students and a left wing faculty that often equates Israel with Nazi Germany.
The situation is worse in Europe, where anti-semitism has flourished in the last few years. It wasn’t THE PASSION that did it there either (Frankly I have always suspected that a sizeable percentage of our European friends regret the fact that Hitler didn’t finish the job).
So I’d say be vigilant but don’t let political bias blind you to the true direction the attacks are likely to come from.
I don’t understand bigotry like that, and I hope I never do. However, I really don’t get Christian anti-Semitism. What that boils down to is people who worship a Jew condemning all Jews for the death of the Jew they worship, a death without which (a friend pointed out) they don’t even have a religion, because the whole point of Jesus’s life was what his death did for the rest of mankind. Wasn’t that the whole point of sending him down here? That’s why you have all these people running around with John 3:16 signs (mostly seen at sporting events). If you’re Christian and you’re going to hold the actions of a few Jews as indicative of all Jews, I would think you should be thanking them, because without the death of Jesus, no one would be saved, and the Christian religion wouldn’t even exist.
But then, most “reasons” for things like bigotry are just convenient excuses to defend what people have already independently decided they’re going to do and believe anyway, and they’re just trying to find something to justify it.
Maybe this is a silly question, but I’ve been mulling it over ever since it was reported that “The Passion” was Anti-Semitic: regardless of who killed Christ, the Jews or the Romans, if the man had not died on the cross in the manner in which he did, would Christianity exist at all? Didn’t Jesus have to be crucified? Wouldn’t everyone be Jewish if it hadn’t happened?
Should the Christians not be throwing parades and honoring us Jews for giving them their basic theology?
Just a thought…
You mentioned people being taken away without being charged with a crime. Before someone says that couldn’t happen here, I’ll point out the people being held at Quantanamo Bay. They still haven’t been charged with a crime. In fact, the government is arguing in court that there is no need to do so because of the murky legal status of where the base is. Even the identity and actual amount of people in captivity is being withheld from public access. The similarities to pre-war Germany should frighten anyone, not just those with Jewish ancestry.
Guess my comment got removed. I guess it would make people uncomfortable. Thanks. You just went against what you preach. 🙁
I was trying to say much the same in the Passion blog, but far less eloquently. Some people are too wrapped up in defending the movie to realize that there is a larger picture. Growing up Jewish, it’s hard not to have concerns about anti-semitism. Hate is prevalent in all parts of society, about anything and everything. Hate crimes happen so quickly that any time one sees anything remotely intimidating it is better to talk about and hopefully diffuse it before something tragic can occur. On the other hand, it’s more than a little heart warming to hear how many people who post on this blog can’t understand anti-semitism. I, also can’t understand how anyone can hate others so intensely, be it those of another faith, race or political creed. I just know that people like that are out there and we must always be conscious of it in the same way we don’t walk down dark alleys in the middle of the night. An ounce of prevention…
It is a bit of a leap to compare the president’s proposed and most likely DOA constitutional amendment to the unpleasantness that gays faced under Hitler.
In the past year, the criminalization of homosexual conduct was struck down by a fairly conservative Supreme Court. The president is reacting to the further mainstreaming of homosexuality but it doesn’t appear as if those who support gay marriage or gay rights in general are losing. It’s not like gays are getting two years hard labor. Most discrimination against gays vis a vis employment and housing probably won’t stand up in court.
Yes, there is violence against gays (though unlike the lingering violence against blacks, it’s not state-sanctioned like “accidental” cop shootings), but hate crime legislation makes that a federal offense.
Other than the gay marriage issue (and again, it looks like those who support it are obviously winning or maybe I’m imagining the weddings that are taking place in SF, Mass, and now NY), I can’t see how things could improve other than for George Bush to french Donald Rumsfeld on national television.
I’m not sure of who is being deprived of liberty without due process or the whole relocation camp thing? Can you be more specific? Are you speaking about The Patriot Act, most of which isn’t as byzantine as people think, though I don’t support it at all.
And yes, we had both of the above in the past (my father attended a segregated school, so I know of our shady past), but things improved through nonviolent protest and social change.
The existence of organized anti-Semitic groups is not a bad thing. No, that’s not a typo. We live in a free society where freedom of thought and assembly are important rights. That includes the right to think and gather over the most repugnant ideas. I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s not like we have a policy of anti-Semitism in this country. In fact, most anti-Semites think the opposite, given our support of Israel (even the much maligned president is quite a fan of Israel).
Compared to Iraq or Cuba or China, I don’t see how we have much to complain about. I don’t see the Empire taking place any time soon. It’s not that I don’t think there are some serious problems in our government but we have the freedom to change them. We have an election coming up in which we can peacably overthrow the existing government, from the highest office in the land to even your local Congressional representatives.
Guess my comment got removed. I guess it would make people uncomfortable. Thanks. You just went against what you preach. 🙁
Boy, “Paranoid Jew” indeed.
Ben, I speak for both Glenn and myself in saying, with perfectly clear conscience, that we have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t see your comment, I didn’t remove it, Glenn didn’t see it, he didn’t remove it. Feel free to repost it and chalk it up to one of those weird computer glitches.
PAD
Ya know, this is one of the times that I just want to quit Earth. I am not just sick and tired of all the hate and violence of this supposed “civilized society” but I find that I am also extrordinarily bored with it. How sad is that? I mean I used to believe that people were fairly decent one-on-one but in groups they are trouble. Now it seems that even individuals are turning into hate-filled deceitful slime.
I’m not pointing at anyone here because the posters here seem to be those decent individuals I mentioned.
Pad is right. It’s happened here and it will again. I mean, let’s look at what we have in the ‘melting pot’: People eho hate Jews. People who hate Gays. People who hate Blacks. I’d make a complete list but none of us have that kind of time. I hear that next week we will be introduced to the Loyal Brotherhood for the Open Hatred of Left-Handed Lithuanians.
I am just plain tired of having organized hate in front of and behin me. Meanwhile to my right are all the groups who want to ban something or other and to my left are people so self-involved that they blow their horn when the light has been green for under a second.
I think we’ve become diseased as a society by attacking symptoms instead of finding solutions. You know, maybe if we’d focus on solutions we could cut the organized hate (AKA Ignorance) dramatically. But I don’t see it happening. Society is too willing to become the victim of on e of the oldest strategies on the books: Divide and Conquer.
I hope I’m wrong.
Salutations,
Mitch.
PAD, maybe you can give some examples when you talk about Germany today? Yes, unfortunately Neo-Nazis still exist and violence against minorities happens as well (but not only in Germany). But “People deprived of liberty without due process”? That is something I hear all the time when I watch the news about the “War on terror” with emphasis on the USA and to a lesser degree Britain but not Germany and certainly not in connection with anti-Semitism. And “citizens who committed no crime, rounded up in relocation camps”? Also this is more familiar to me when looking at the “War against terror” subject, just replace relocation camps with prison. It also is a problem when looking at how to deal with illegal immigrants. But I never heard it in connection with anti-Semitism.
I admit that I moved from Germany to England more than 10 years ago but I am in close contact with my family and am still watching German news – as well as British and US news. I find what you write about Germany today hard to believe, but if I really missed something I would like to know.
Didn’t Jesus have to be crucified? Wouldn’t everyone be Jewish if it hadn’t happened?
You know…that would be a heck of a novel. A novel in which the disciples were so determined to create a religion, but interest was flagging in their guy. So they decided he needed to be martyred and set the wheels in motion secretly…
Of course, if I wrote it, I’d be the first Jew crucified in a couple thousand years…
PAD
Boy, “Paranoid Jew” indeed.
Well. Sometimes. 🙂
Ben, I speak for both Glenn and myself in saying, with perfectly clear conscience, that we have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t see your comment, I didn’t remove it, Glenn didn’t see it, he didn’t remove it. Feel free to repost it and chalk it up to one of those weird computer glitches.
DOH! My bad.
What I originally said was that my grandfather did the same as yours in moving he and his wife out of Poland. And if an anti-semite group or person comes knocking at my door they’ll find a 5″ 11′ bald, tattooed and armed Jew waiting for them. We’ll have a little coming to Jesus meeting ending with them meeting Jesus in person. 🙂
You know, I’m sick of, and going to disagree with, all the comments about how hateful and racist this country is.
The fact of the matter is, the human race is racist. It’s always been natural for people to form into “cliques” for survival and comfort. It’s an evolved instinct. Watch kids. They do the same thing. All that being said, it doesn’t make it good, or acceptable.
However, of all the places in the world, the US is one of the most open. While there are hate groups, and haters, hate speach is not considered acceptable in most social groups. Even in Oklahoma, in any sort of gathering, use of racist slurs, or anti-gay comments would be considered inaproppriate, and unacceptable. If you compare this to what is going on in Europe (and France especially!), with the treatment of Jewish business owners and residents, or the middle east, or Asia, then it makes the US look pretty good. I mean, maybe in Canada they have it better (although talking to some Canadian friends of mine, I’m not so sure).
I’ve had direct conversation with Holocaust Survivors, as well as with Jews who made it to the US pre-WW2. They have nothing but glowing things to say about their treatment in the past 60 years. I can link to dozens of interviews online which say much the same thing. They know it’s not perfect, but all things considered….
Is it perfect? No. But we are 1000% better off as a nation and really even globally that we even were 40 years ago, much less 100, much less 300. There will always be idiots. But there is a far cry from the idiots on the fring, to Nazi Germany. I’m half native american, and I don’t worry about the evil pale face swooping into town and killing my family (even though that kind of stuff was still happening less than 100 years ago).
There is no goverment sanctioned racism, blacks aren’t getting rounded up and gassed, police aren’t rounding up gay men and locking them in internment camps, and people are free to have weblogs criticizing the government without fear of the “man” busting their door down and locking them up for it.
Jerry
You know…that would be a heck of a novel. A novel in which the disciples were so determined to create a religion, but interest was flagging in their guy. So they decided he needed to be martyred and set the wheels in motion secretly…
That sounds a lot like a screenplay I wrote a couple of years ago. It’s won some contests, done very well in others, and been read all over Hollywood, but nobody wants to touch it with a ten-foot pole.
I’m remninded of Peter’s wonderful work on the Hulk when Delphi saw a future dictator and Achilles was trying to take him out. Anyway, as an agnostic Cohen who was on the phone with a rabbi this morning (for my job), I feel it is my resposibility to say the following:
HAIL ERIS!!
I’m off to get a hot dog. And if they’re gonna come for me or mine, and that’s not just genteic relations, they WILL regret it.
As a Non-Jew, I can never understand the fear the Jewish community feels regarding the Holocaust happening again. However, that said, I’d say the chances of something like that happening in America today, are somewhere between slim and none. The two major reasons why are 1)minorities and Jews are integrated into all segments of society. The military for example, has a large minority base. 2)Watchdog Groups, such as the NAACP and ACLA. They call the government on anything they feel doesn’t passes muster, and are often very successful. Add to this, this country has a very large, and ever-expanding press. With these two major obstacles, a new Holocaust movement went never get beyond the beginning stages-it’d be nipped in the bud before it ever got significant.
However, of all the places in the world, the US is one of the most open.
Yah. But it doesn’t stay that way without contant vigilance. And I don’t think it CAN stay that way without vigilance.
While there are hate groups, and haters, hate speach is not considered acceptable in most social groups.
Well, you know that’s due to political correctness…
(Stop to think, though…would want to be in a society where hate speech and slurs were socially acceptable?)
“There is no goverment sanctioned racism, blacks aren’t getting rounded up and gassed, police aren’t rounding up gay men and locking them in internment camps, and people are free to have weblogs criticizing the government without fear of the “man” busting their door down and locking them up for it.”
There is now presidentially sanctioned homophobia, Arabs and Arab-Americans *are* being rounded up and held without charge, Arabs across the country are being held without charge or access to legal representation in internment camps, and the Patriot Act could shut this site down in a heartbeat, without warning or explanation.
I can’t see how things could improve other than for George Bush to french Donald Rumsfeld on national television.
If he did, he’d just be accused of pandering to the left.
As for the Constituional Amendment issue, supporters of gay marriage would be dancing in the streets if Bush had proposed an amendment to legalize gay marriage, and opponents would be against one.
I’m also a little disappointed, but not really surprised, that PAD has finally resorted to throwing around the liberal epithet of bigotry. That ought to put a chill on any discussion or debate from anyone who disagrees with PAD’s position on the subject.
Oh, and finally to the people who think they’re being cute about pointing out that if Christ hadn’t died, Christian’s wouldn’t have a religion, what alternative universe do you have access to?
What a sophist argument! The foundation of Christianity is grounded in the teachings of Christ, not just his death. It’s like saying that the civil rights movement wouldn’t have succeeded if Martin Luther King hadn’t died. Had either lived longer than they did doesn’t mean that their teachings wouldn’t be just as popular today or just as valid.
And you know, while I’m not trying to be anti-semitic here, let’s not forget that the Old Testament and Torah chronicle some pretty brutal Jewish attrocities done in the name of God. The story of Jericho comes immediately to mind. And while I happen to think that modern day Israel has every right to defend itself, you can’t escape the irony of them building a wall around the Palastinians. So is that “Never again, unless we’re the one’s doing it, then it’s okay?”
People who act holier-than-thou rarely are, religious or not.
There is now presidentially sanctioned homophobia, Arabs and Arab-Americans *are* being rounded up and held without charge, Arabs across the country are being held without charge or access to legal representation in internment camps, and the Patriot Act could shut this site down in a heartbeat, without warning or explanation.
Actually, that entire statement is untrue, especially the section about the Patriot Act. But, I’m not going to change your mind on that, and it’s easier to just make statements than back them up.
EClark, you have to admit though, that any cause whose leader is willing to die for it certainly gives said cause some extra strength and backing, no? Perhaps Christianity would have fizzled out if they didn’t have a martyr to look back to. We obviously can’t prove it one way or another, but it’s possible.
And as far as Jews doing atrocious things in the name of god, weren’t the Crusades a christian thing (correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not well versed in the subject)? And what about the radical muslim groups today? Bottom line is, every religious group has it’s peaceful adherents and it’s wackos.
Why is bigotry a “liberal epithet?” Frankly, I’d be surprised if no concervative has ever expressed concerns over bigotry, and if they haven’t, well, that says a lot. I didn’t realize that no one was allowed to talk about bigotry when it comes up. Personally, I’m tired of the tossing around of “liberal” this, “liberal” that, or “right-wing” this, and “right-wing” that. They have kind of become meaningless little pejoritive buzz words.
Monkeys.
“Actually, that entire statement is untrue, especially the section about the Patriot Act. But, I’m not going to change your mind on that, and it’s easier to just make statements than back them up.”
I respect your right to think that, and whilst I admit my knowledge of the Patriot Act isn’t as deep as it should be, I stand by every word as increasingly true and based on considerable evidence.
I find your contradiction of Guantanamo and Bush’s support of FMA unnerving.
“Actually, that entire statement is untrue, especially the section about the Patriot Act. But, I’m not going to change your mind on that, and it’s easier to just make statements than back them up. “
Where is it untrue? Are’t there Arabs being held in GTMO with out being charged in any crime? Don’t they have the power to monitor and take down websites that they feel to be in anyway threatening to national security? The patriot act is a little ambiguous on that one, and as a non-citizen one who lives in fear of the patriot act…
EClark, you have to admit though, that any cause whose leader is willing to die for it certainly gives said cause some extra strength and backing, no?
I don’t deny it, but that wasn’t my point.
And as far as Jews doing atrocious things in the name of god, weren’t the Crusades a christian thing (correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not well versed in the subject)? And what about the radical muslim groups today? Bottom line is, every religious group has it’s peaceful adherents and it’s wackos.
True, but it’s said about Christians like they’re the only group that’s EVER done it. Heck, it doesn’t even have to be a religious cause. Wars are fought in the name of peace and land. The Trojan war was one over Love. Both sides of the civil rights protests killed people and had people who were killed.
Why is bigotry a “liberal epithet?” Frankly, I’d be surprised if no concervative has ever expressed concerns over bigotry, and if they haven’t, well, that says a lot. I didn’t realize that no one was allowed to talk about bigotry when it comes up.
I call it a “liberal” epithet because it was used in this forum and in the midst of a legitimate debate for one reason and one reason only. It was used to characterize individuals who believe a certain way in a particular light. It’s a favorite tactic of the liberal left to quell a debate, which is rather ironic considering how liberal groups like SAG love to bring up the 50″s congressional hearings when people were blacklisted just because they were accused of being communists . Nobody wants to be thought of as bigoted just because they hold a certain point of view. And coming from someone like PAD who usually is such a champion of free speech, I find it troubling that he’s resorted to that tactic.
Where is it untrue? Are’t there Arabs being held in GTMO with out being charged in any crime? Don’t they have the power to monitor and take down websites that they feel to be in anyway threatening to national security? The patriot act is a little ambiguous on that one, and as a non-citizen one who lives in fear of the patriot act…
I can’t prove a negative. It’s a falacy in debating. Cite me specific evidence, rather than heresay, or rumors, and I can respond. I know of no lines or laws that allows them to “monitor and take down websites that they feel to be in anyway threatening to national security” nor have I seen or heard of them doing so.
As for arabs being held in GTMO bay, there are 3 conditions that must be met for them to be held there:
1.Be a foreign national;
2.Have received training from Al-Qaeda; or
3.Be in command of 300 or more personnel.
I have seen no evidence of ANY arab-armericans being rounded up and carted off to GTMO bay, as you claim. Can you back that up please?
Where is it untrue? Are’t there Arabs being held in GTMO with out being charged in any crime?
That’s a bit misleading, isn’t it? They’re being held as “prisoners of war”, which while not a crime is a legitmate reason to lock someone up. I think the protests are that they SHOULD be charged as criminals.
**Personally, I’m tired of the tossing around of “liberal” this, “liberal” that, or “right-wing” this, and “right-wing” that. They have kind of become meaningless little pejoritive buzz words.
Monkeys. **
More name-calling. You don’t like “liberal” or “right-wing”, but calling someone a “monkey ” is okay?
EClark writes,
As for the Constituional Amendment issue, supporters of gay marriage would be dancing in the streets if Bush had proposed an amendment to legalize gay marriage, and opponents would be against one.
This one wouldn’t.
An old college roommate of mine, for that matter, is profoundly uncertain about gay marriage in and of itself … but is adamantly opposed to altering the Constitution in either direction on the matter.
Could you perhaps tone down on the massive overgeneralization?
(And on a more general note, how did this thread suddenly turn back into the gay-marriage thread? Is the issue really that all-encompassing?)
As for “The Passion of the Christ” … haven’t seen it, have no plans to. I’m not Christian and have no particular love of Mel Gibson’s films — as such, I don’t really see that blending the two is something that’s going to be a wonderful way to occupy my time.
As for “paranoia” — while I think PAD’s position on the issue is somewhat more extreme than mine, given his family history I think that also makes sense. I don’t think I really have much right to weigh in on whether his reactions are or aren’t appropriate.
TWL
On Arabs in Gitmo, EClark asks,
That’s a bit misleading, isn’t it? They’re being held as “prisoners of war”, which while not a crime is a legitmate reason to lock someone up.
It’s a legitimate reason to lock someone up for a brief period of time. It’s NOT a legitimate reason, IMO, to keep someone completely isolated without access to counsel/etc. for years and decades … and the administration’s position is that they are intending to do exactly that. One recent statement said that we’re going to be holding those people prisoner even if the upcoming military tribunals find them innocent.
That doesn’t sound much like the justice system I learned about growing up — but perhaps that’s just me.
I think the protests are that they SHOULD be charged as criminals.
Agreed.
TWL
“More name-calling. You don’t like “liberal” or “right-wing”, but calling someone a “monkey ” is okay?”-ECLark
Uh, hopefully you’re joking about that, cuz that’s how I sign all my posts. I wasn’t calling you or anyone else a monkey, other than perhaps myself, I guess.
“I call it a “liberal” epithet because it was used in this forum and in the midst of a legitimate debate for one reason and one reason only. It was used to characterize individuals who believe a certain way in a particular light.” -EClark
So, when it gets used on a concervative’s blog, is it a right wing epithet? And if what the individuals being called bigots are saying/doing falls into the category or scope of bigotry, does that not make them, or at least what they say bigotry? Regardless of whether or not they wish to be called that? For example, I’m sure rascists don’t really like being called rascists. Now, whether or not the actions of the people PAD was talking about fall under bigotry, I haven’t personally examined yet, so I won’t contend that issue right now.
Monkeys
You know…that would be a heck of a novel. A novel in which the disciples were so determined to create a religion, but interest was flagging in their guy. So they decided he needed to be martyred and set the wheels in motion secretly…
I saw a play in London a few years back called “God Only Knows” in which Derek Jacobi plays a man who finds a letter written by a Roman circa 90 AD in which he talks about this new religion of Christianity, and tells how his father had helped to fake the resurection, thinking that, given the unstable nature of Judea, that having people belonging to religion that preached “love the neighbor” and “turn the other cheek” would prevent any rebellion.
David
In Denver recently, a minister announced on a sign in front of his church: “Jews Killed Jesus. Settled!” Local protests brought the offending message down.
Anti-Semitism is still around, even in the generally tolerant United States, but opposition to it is strong, thank God.
http://www.churchcentral.com/nw/s/id/18431/template/Article.html
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~1982568,00.html
David Seidman
You know…that would be a heck of a novel. A novel in which the disciples were so determined to create a religion, but interest was flagging in their guy. So they decided he needed to be martyred and set the wheels in motion secretly…
What do you think Judas was up to?
I have a story to share.
When I was in Junior High, a bunch of nice, well-behaved Christians (me being one of them) were herded off once a week to a little Christian class, where we got to watch cheap slide shows. Not real exciting, but it beat the heck out of our boring Spanish class.
Anyhow, I still remember the Christian class leader saying during one lesson that Pilate really did not want to crucify Jesus, that he was forced to by certain evil agitators. Don’t think he came out and said “Jewish.” (Actually, I think the historical record shows that Pilate was a guy who enjoyed his job, especially when it involved torturing peasants.)
I never figured what the heck that lesson was about. Until now.
I read that Pilate is being treated sympathetically in the Passion movie. Maybe the point was that I was supposed to blame a certain sector of the population for Jesus’s death. And that sector is not the Romans.
My faith has lapsed a bit over the decades. But I would have felt then as I feel now: SCREW ANTI-SEMITISM, and please don’t try talking me into it. I loathe bigotry. Jesus was Jewish, every one of the apostles were Jewish, nearly all Jesus’s followers during his lifetime were Jewish. Why should I hate them? They never did nuthin’ bad to me! If you want to hate people responsible for Jesus’s death, blame the dead Romans, but also blame intolerant religious hierarchies, which is what the Pharisees (or whoever that nasty Jewish leaders sect was at the time) seemed to be. Like what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are now.
It always seemed to me that the lesson is distrust of the powerful in religious circles, not an entire religion. And I have not outgrown that. Few people take to heart the saying, “With great power, there must also come great responsibility.” More people should read comic books.
Funny. That class leader seemed to be a pretty nice guy. But now I am wondering what I would find if I scratched his surface.
I don’t think i mentioned citizens, but hey, what do American’s care about those who came here looking for a new life and get locked up even if they haven’t done anything wrong…
Jdog
Last year, a house painter, originally from Egypt, was looking for an address in Oceanside, CA, just south of Camp Pendleton Marine Base. He wound up at the main gate (quite plausible, for those familiar with the labyrinthine streets there), and asked the guard for directions. These were cheerfully given, and he went on his way. Due to instructions included as part of the badly-misnamed PATRIOT USA act, the guard was required to describe the incident in his log.
Two days later, FBI agents burst into the Egyptian painter’s house, and hauled him away as a potential “enemy combatant”. Six months later, a Federal judge, who obviously didn’t know the area, decided that he didn’t believe the man wound up at the gate of a military installation by accident, and refused to either release him or review his status.
The last I heard, he’s still being held – without trial, without bail, and without access to council.
Who’s not getting “rounded up and detained” again?
its 2004…lets face it….religion is a crutch…every major war and or conflict can be traced to a religious squabble….I do not believe in religion…I did not say faith…to me they are 2 different things and no government or mel gibson, is going to tell me to believe in anything they want me to…….as far as gay marriage…that’s just another one of bush’s weapons of mass distraction to avoid the real challenges….besides …aren’t all marriages same sex marriages? ..y’know, same sex every night!!!! (wish I could take credit for that last line..but bill maher said it on tonights show!!) anyways, to all the conservatives…grow up!!!!!!
A name, link, reference, anything? I can’t refute what I know nothing about, or know to be true. To many of those stories floating around on web sites have been proven false for me to take a face value anymore…
Jerry
I can’t believe nobody’s taken up what Bill Mulligan said about the attitude to Jewish people in Europe:
(Frankly I have always suspected that a sizeable percentage of our European friends regret the fact that Hitler didn’t finish the job.
In-bloody-deed Bill, and where do you base that snippet on? The title of this thread is ‘Paranoid Jews?’ and whatever religious or ethnic affiliation you are you fit the first part of the line aptly. Having lived 10 years (ages 10 to 19) in the U.K. and travelled continental Europe I have yet to see that ‘sizeable percentage’ and thouroughly resent your comment. The US might be a place which defines itself on its right to freedoms (with ‘of worship’ as one of the highest) but don’t you dare spout uninformed rubbish about how the same is not true in other parts of the world as well.
People often tout the recent ban of the //hajib// and other religious clothing/accessories in French public schools as an example of Europe’s intolerance of minority religion but they do so without looking past the few facets of the case presented to them by mainstream media. The whole point of the French Republic is to create a state where people can live, work and abide together because before they are anything they are French nationals. That includes religion, whether you agree it should or not, and that is how their country preserves itself. Jacques Chirac declared a ban on ‘ostentatious’ religious icons in the public school system because parents of many religions in the wake of 9/11 were using their children to designate their seperateness from that identity. (Girls as young as five were being sent to school in full head-coverings when it is explicitly stated in the Qu’ran that these are meant to be worn by pubescent girls to guard them againsts advances on their sexuality/maintain personal honour, to challenge that other parents would send their children to school wearing large crosses) The French government saw a situation arising where children were not identifying themselves as French, but as Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc etc – which is not something they want. It was segregating classes, altering behaviours and frankly worrying people and they decided ‘actually, no’ and did something about it. My personal beliefs on the matter go against that action but I can understand why it was taken. I’ve spoken to numerous French students at my university to get their side of the story and I have. But I’ve also watched them try to articulate the facts of the situation to others and I repeatedly see them called out as representatives of an oppressive, bigoted government.
Moral of the story (and I learned this the hard way on moving here):
Don’t make the assumption that America is the moral compass of this world, you’ll find the other inhabitants of planet Earth don’t agree and not should they.
Rich,
First off, elequent post. Nice to see someone who can get their point across so well….but I still think you need more exclamation marks!!!!!!
/sarcasm off…
For the record, when is Mel Gibson telling anyone what to think? See the movie or not, and take from it what you will. It’s just one man’s portrayal of a major religious event. There is no preaching, summary, or conclusion given in the movie, beside ones that viewers give themselves…
Jerry
Hmm..how bout some facts here…
“Since September 2000, Patrick Klugman and Malek Boutih — in their book The Antijews: The Book of Antisemitic Violence in France — count 405 antisemitic acts, from offensive graffiti to arson. The statistics of the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights (the official police report) record 146 antisemitic acts in the same period (attacks, aggression, and insults) and 773 threats (graffiti, anonymous letters, and pamphlets). However the statistics are calculated, the numbers are astronomical and disturbing.”
and also…
“The stereotype of the rich and overly influential Jew continues to persist. From 1988 to 1991, one French citizen in five thought that “Jews have too much power in France.” In 1999 that proportion rose to 31 percent, and again to 34 percent in 2000. This is not innocent. Those inclined to attribute to Jews too much influence also feel that there are “too many Jews” and doubt how integrated Jews are into French society.
The antisemitism of those who feel that Jews have too much power is similar to ordinary racism and goes hand in hand with the rejection of other minorities. It is part of a globally hostile attitude toward all groups who appear different. The same people who judged Jews to be too numerous (20 percent in 2000) also believe that there are too many Asians in France (62 percent), too many Blacks (86 percent), and too many Arabs (97 percent). These people are the most hostile to the construction of mosques for Muslims, the most opposed to allowing non-European foreigners to vote, and the least interested in the fight against racism. Their cultural and socioeconomic profile is rigorously identical to that of other racists. “
But you’re right…France is a great, open accepting place….
Jerry
You really think American Christian Fundemenalist types are gonna turn on Jews because of a movie?
They’ve been backing Israel for years. Sure, it’s for their own warped reasons(gotta have the Jews in place for the Apocalypse or whatever), but I doubt they’d turn on Jews because of a movie. They’re too entrenched and conservative to change that quickly.
I’d worry more about the Europeans who already have a strong vein of anti-semitism running through them and don’t need much at all to set it off.
Besides, it’s not cool to be an anti-semite, it’s passe, it’s only cool to hate people if they do stuff you think is icky in the bedroom.
As I said a little while ago…I do not believe in religion, but I think I remember enough of my childhood catechism to ask…should it matter who killed Jesus since he came to earth to live as a mortal and experience pain and suffering? And he was Jewish…to me the problem is that the christian religions have tried to get us to forget that fact to further their own doctrines. It was pre-ordained Jessus was to suffer and die, its humanity that has twisted the story for their own gains…funny, we are the people he gave up his life for?
Did I once say Anti-Semmitism doesnt exist in France? Or Anti-Islam movements? No. Would you please read the post before you embarass yourself by painting it as something it patently is not. You take your facts from one source, ‘The Antijews: The Book of Anti-Semmetic Violence in France’ and aside from the fact that basing opinions on one source is neither big nor clever. Have you been there? Have you seen the place? Do you know people who have? I’ve seen in your previous posts that you are keen to extole how the US has comparatively less hate-crime, but where are your figures there? You even mention the headscarf ban as a reason that France is a less-tolerant country than the US – did you understand the point I’m making about how France is not the US, does not need to conduct itself as such? Do you understand that not every country (or even society!) in the world bases itself on the same foundations as your own?
I’ll paraphrase yourself for this part, something that could be written by a backpacker on her way through France. “While there are hate groups, and haters, hate speach is not considered acceptable in most social groups. Even in France, in any sort of gathering, use of racist slurs, or anti-gay comments would be considered inaproppriate, and unacceptable.”
Not to mention that you are acting just as I have seen so many people do towards the French students in my university, ‘I don’t agree so I attack and belittle’… never mind trying to understand irregardless of if you agree or not.
But I’ll follow your advice: I’m not going to change your mind on that, and it’s easier to just make statements than back them up.
PAD, maybe you can give some examples when you talk about Germany today? Yes, unfortunately Neo-Nazis still exist and violence against minorities happens as well (but not only in Germany). But “People deprived of liberty without due process”? That is something I hear all the time when I watch the news about the “War on terror” with emphasis on the USA and to a lesser degree Britain but not Germany and certainly not in connection with anti-Semitism.
Boy, did YOU misunderstand. Or perhaps I simply wasn’t clear. What I was saying was that the conditions which lead to the Holocaust sixty years ago–which Americans blissfully say could never happen here–have indeed, to various degrees, been happening right up to modern day here in the United States. I was comparing the US from sixty years ago through to modern day to Germany at the time of World War II. Not to modern day Germany. Sixty years ago people in Germany were being deprived of liberty without having committed a crime; sixty years ago, we were doing it with the Japanese…and, as you say, we’re doing it again.
PAD
There are two really boneheaded things about all this.
1) To the guys on the “left”. 90% of the people who will see this film have read the book. They know the story. They’ve been raised with whatever it is that they’re taking into the movie with them. PAD in his BID in CBG once said about the film Basic Instinct that seeing the film wouldn’t change the veiwers. If they went in hating gays they would still hate gays. If they liked or didn’t care one way or another about gays then the film wouldn’t make them hate gays. Same here. The beliefs or feelings of the movie going public were made up years before this film. It won’t matter one wit a year from now. Let Mel have his film and chill out.
2) To the guys on the “right”. Again, this is only a movie. The people on the right in the media have turned this into some sort of major battle in a war for this country. The film has to be a success or the country is lost. If it doesn’t make lot$ of ca$h then “they” win and the country is taken over by the pinko commie gay libs or something.
Lost in all this is (in most areas of the media) discussion of whether or not this is or isn’t a good film. Also lost in most areas seems to be anything like reasoned discourse. Name calling and culture warring sound bites are the best that you can find in most media right now. It sucks and it’s messed up what might have been a good film.
I call it a “liberal” epithet because it was used in this forum and in the midst of a legitimate debate for one reason and one reason only. It was used to characterize individuals who believe a certain way in a particular light.
No, it was used to characterize an individual, George W. Bush, to describe the way I believe he perceives gays and the action he is endeavoring to take. Supporting the implementation of an amendment that formalizes a segment of American citizens as second class citizens is, I believe, a form of bigotry. A bigot is a person who refuses to tolerate people whose opinions differ from his own. Going out of his way to make them unhappy and make sure they don’t have the rights of other citizens, I believe, constitutes bigotry.
I believe your response–to try and slap an unwarranted label of “liberal epithet” to a fairly accurate definition of Bush’s actions–is a fast attempt to smear me (because, you know, liberal=evil) rather than acknowledge the bigoted actions of the President.
PAD
A name, link, reference, anything? I can’t refute what I know nothing about, or know to be true.
The Egyptian house painter’s name is Abdelrehim Kewanhas. He has been ordered deported from the US. See San Diego Tribune, 8/23/2003.
By the way….
Folks may not realize it, but the Supreme Court decisions that upheld the Japanese American concentration camps, Hirabayashi v. US, Korematsu v. US, is still valid law. The decisions were vacated because of government suppression of evidence, but the legal basis of the camps still is valid law.
More Bush is Hitler bullcrap? Sheesh.
Bush is like Hitler, huh? Is he trying to throw gay people into ovens? No, he wants to amend the Constitution, as the Constitution allows, to preserve a certain legal definition. At the same time, he wants any amendment to preserve the right of states to recognize civil unions that can grant equal protection to gay couples.
Oh yes, this is VERY hitler-esque. *RollsEyes*
And you know what? This is a tolerant country. There has never been a country more tolerant of Jews in 2,000 years. Relations between Christians and Jews in this country have never been better, yet some paranoid Jews (and yes, that is what they are) are throwing up walls and pointing fingers at their Christian countrymen.
“May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.”
–George Washington