When I first got involved with the internet nearly twenty years ago, and the presence of pros was a rarity, my showing up was seen by many fans as an unwanted intrusion. My being there, it was stated, would have a chilling effect. Many were only comfortable discussing a creator’s work behind his back, and were truly upset with the idea of a creator responding.
In many ways, that hasn’t changed. The exchange of ideas and concerns is still only to be one way: Fans to creators. If fans insult creators, that’s SOP; if creators insult fans, Oh my God, so-and-so was mean to me, where does he get off? Fans are perfectly entitled to crab about anything and everything that bothers them: Story, characterization, page count, characters who were killed off twenty years ago, a pro looked at them sideways at a convention…anything. On the other hand, if a pro expresses concerns directly pertaining to the business of comics…wotta jerk. Unless, of course, he or she is one of those pros who has an unerring knack of phrasing things just right or saying what people want to hear. Would that I were one of those.
Nowhere was this more driven home to me than in the now far-ranging discussion regarding “waiting for trades.”
I’ve taken a position that was prompted by the launch of “Fallen Angel,” in which a sizable number of people told me, “Loved the first issue, and will be sure to pick it up as a trade.” And a number of retailers told me that, more and more, fans are using first issues of new series (particularly wholly original series as opposed to mutant, Spider, Bat, or Super-related titles) to determine—not whether they’ll support the series–but whether they’ll buy it as a trade. All the praise, all the positive reviews on everything from theFourthrail.com to Aintitcoolnews.com…to many fans, it simply served as a heads-up for a trade to watch out for.
In being told this, I’ve declared in a variety of places that this is yet another hurdle in launching new “unaligned” series. That if enough fans decline to support a new series based on the assumption of a trade, that there will be no trade and no ongoing series. That when this was pointed out to fans, many of them stated it wasn’t their problem and they didn’t care. That comics publishers might want to follow the model of book publishers and wait a year to collect a series (since, I figured, how many people would buy hardcovers if the paperbacks were coming out three months later). That if fans want to help ensure the survival of new series, they should consider buying monthlies.
Since then I’ve been barraged by arguments from fans who seem intent–not on denying that they don’t care, because they admit they don’t–but instead explaining WHY they don’t care. I’ve been called an idiot, a jáçkášš, etc. And there are some who endeavor to dismiss my entire concern because it’s ostensibly born from self-interest.
To which I can only respond: Yes, of COURSE it’s born from self-interest. Does anyone have a PROBLEM with that? What, when hundreds of fans bìŧçh that Hal Jordan should be reinstated as Green Lantern, that’s inspired by altruism and concern for the commonweal? Why should my interests be one iota different than that of the audience? They’re watching out for their concerns, and I am for mine.
I love writing monthly books that are off the beaten path. If there’s new, rising impediments to that and I wasn’t concerned about it, I’d be every bit the fool that people characterize me for being because I AM concerned about it.
When fans express concerns about comics, I try to answer them. Fans complain about rising prices; I put my neck on the line to try and keep the price of “Captain Marvel” as long as I could. Fans complained about overlong, complicated story arcs on “Supergirl.” I answered back with “Many Happy Returns,” which turned around sales (not that it mattered.) Fans complained about new series that you need to buy six issues in order to get a story. I launched “Fallen Angel” with a couple of done-in-one stories. When the response is, “Thanks for doing that, loved it, see you in six months maybe”…excuse the hëll out of me for getting frustrated.
I never said it would destroy the industry. It won’t. I never said people didn’t have a right to buy comics in whatever format they wanted. They do. I never said people had an obligation to support monthly titles. They don’t. But boy, you sure wouldn’t know it from the level of responses my comments received.
But just to stave off the possible responses: For all those people who feel they must, must, MUST explain to me yet again, ad nauseam, why, precisely, they don’t care…
I think I should be entitled to not care why you don’t care. It doesn’t change the concept, made clear by both fans and retailers, that mid-list monthlies have yet more odds stacked against them. Care about it, don’t care about it, it’s up to you. Bottom line, I totally get that it’s not your problem; I openly acknowledge that it’s mine. Except, unlike the instances cited above, it’s not one I have a ready answer to (unless you count the “Fallen Angel” trade paperback this summer.) I certainly wish I did, especially one I could give those fans whose support of monthly titles help provide the trade paperbacks…aside from saying, Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.
PAD
• 
Perhaps I read too much…
I cannot comprehend this attitude of which you write. Personally, when I’m collecting comics, it’s more about story and characters for me, therefore I can’t *wait* to get a hold of next month’s installment, if the title is worth my money. When I was a kid, I fell into my father’s ideas of buying things because they might be ‘worth something’ someday, and ended up with a bunch of comics I didn’t care about. That was about, oh… early to mid ’90’s, and the hologram, quadruple foil cover books. Now I read entirely for my own enjoyment. Only time I end up buying trades is when I missed out on an earlier book, and it’s easier to get the collected works than track down all the issues.
Am I digressing from your point of frustration? Probably. But your post just got me rambling. I’ve always found the fanboys and girls a bit peculiar. Perhaps I read too many novels.
😉
J
Caution: I make no claims that this is especially coherent. It does, however, have the benefit of being first. 🙂
For what it’s worth, PAD, I agree with you on the frustration level. It can’t possibly help a new series’ existence when half its potential readership holds off on buying it so they can get it in another form.
I’m not a wait-for-the-trade kind of person: as a general rule, I don’t buy a trade of new material unless (a) it’s something I expect to lend around a lot to get people interested, (b) it’s something I find so amazingly cool that I know I’m going to want to pick it up and reread it in more convenient form, or (c) it’s something I don’t have a previous version of and am interested in. (I missed the original Squadron Supreme series, for instance, so happily picked up the trade for that when it was recently re-released.)
To play devil’s advocate for a sec, though…
I think there’s a parallel frustration some fans may feel if they buy month-to-month (as I generally do) and then see that a trade is released with all kinds of extra bells and whistles that wind up putting Loyal Reader in the position of “missing the cool extra stuff” or effectively paying twice for the same material.
That sort of scenario is very obviously not your fault, and it’s rotten that you’re getting caught in the middle as a result of that scenario popping up. From a business model, though, I can see those fans’ point: if the choice is to spend money on Format A over six months, or Format B to get “everything at once plus frills” for the same cost … yeah, a lot of people are gonna go for Format B.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t be frustrated. I’d be screaming in your shoes, too. But if the point is really to keep Format A alive, the two formats should be equivalent — and right now, an awful lot of the time, they’re not.
Anyone have any ideas on how to resolve that problem?
TWL
Caution: I make no claims that this is especially coherent. It does, however, have the benefit of being first. 🙂
Or at least, it was first when I started writing it. Drat all the luck!
PAD, I agree with you completely. I have an Idea about how to get people to get the monthlies instead of the trades. Include cool stuff in the monthlies and in the Trades ONLY have the story and nothing else. That way if they want the cool extras they have to get the monthlies.
I am a regular buyer of “Captain Marvel” and “Fallen Angel”. I am a bit behind with reading. My “too read” pile is constantly growing, I just wish sometimes a day would provide more hours. Anyway, I will definitely continue buying “Fallen Angel”. I probably will also stay with “Captain Marvel” but I might drop it if the artwork is getting even worse.
From what I can see on the Internet, the vast majority of fans welcomes your presence and enjoys it to be able to give feedback and other comments. As you know, nowadays quite a few professionals, also writers, are keeping a dialogue with their fans and I think it benefits both sides. As it is in any crowd, unfortunately you get the occasional troublemaker and you should also keep in mind, not everybody is a skilled writer of comments. There can also be misunderstandings and not everyone has highly developed social skills. (Not an excuse, but an explanation for some reactions). You are a professional writer. The vast majority of your fans aren`t. People are not always as diplomatic as they should be when they are frustrated or otherwise unhappy with something. But unless it is not an obvious troublemaker, also they write because they care for what you are doing. A website like this also brings the message across that fans are not only dealing with a writer who writes something they enjoy, they deal with a human being who can also have an “off” day and be unhappy about something.
I think what you have to keep in mind as a writer is, you are writing for an audience, for your customers who pay for what you write and who want to be able to also afford to buy what you are doing. With comics, the problem is they are pretty expensive nowadays. Therefore from the perspective of fans who are on a budget – and although many adults read comics, they are still also written for youngsters, too – I can understand why they wait for the trade paperback.
At the end of the day, it is a matter of supply and demand. This means, if comics are to survive, the publishers have to adapt. I don`t know what the solution is, I know too little about the comic market. But also to me it doesn`t make much commercial sense to publish the trade paperback so closely after the single issues. I don`t think it is right to blame the fans for this problem, the comic business has to look at it how to make comics more affordable and accessable. I don`t know, maybe it might be an idea to put more trade paperbacks on the market that weren`t published as singles first.
I hope there is a way and a will to find a solution.
Well, for my part, I buy Fallen Angel monthly. I generally don’t want to wait until a trade comes out, because you never know if there’s gonna be one, unless it’s something huge like JLA/Avengers, and that’s one of the two only series I deliberately did not buy in order to wait for the trade. The other being the “Hush” storyline in Batman. I’m not even buying the hardcover of the first five issues of the latter; I want to buy a cheaper softcover. We know they’ll be TPB’s of both of these.
But when I decided I wanted to try and get back into Peter’s Supergirl, I couldn’t do it via trades, since (correct me if I’m wrong), the only two storylines collected are the first one and the last one, both of which I have in monthly form. Monthlies allow me to sample a story to see if I’ll like it. I can’t do that if I buy a $7 or $12 book in one shot. Waiting for a trade is something I hardly ever do. The only other times I’ve bought trades was with the first Invisibles and Preacher trades, and this was not because I deliberately waited, but because I had let those bandwagons pass me by without jumping aboard when they first came out in monthlies, so when I ended up buying the trades, I did so based solely on hype and recommendations. The first I regret, as I never got past the first two chapters and never went back to it. The second made me an ardent Preacher fan, for which I went out and bought the next two trades, and the rest of the series in MONTHLY form.
Peter, when you said you had “first got involved with the internet nearly twenty years ago”, was this some type of joke, or where you actually involved with DARPA? Or was it just a mistake (like when you left the “th” out of “commonwealth”), and you meant to say “ten years”? Just trying to understand.
I’m just guessing, but I think that last statement is probably what Peter was commenting about anyway 😉
Z.
Peter, when you said you had “first got involved with the internet nearly twenty years ago”, was this some type of joke, or where you actually involved with DARPA? Or was it just a mistake (like when you left the “th” out of “commonwealth”), and you meant to say “ten years”?
It may not have been 20, but I know it’s been at least 14-15, since I remember seeing him on Usenet (via portal) around 1988-89.
TWL
I buy Fallen Angel monthly, and would hate for it to be cancelled because of poor sales.
I don’t know why, but this reminds me a bit of the MP3 downloading. Well, if I’m understanding the issue correctly anyway.
It’s like some of the fans are saying, “Screw that, I’m going for the quick and easy.” That smells of disrespect for those that create ones favorite works. What these people don’t understand is that when it becomes economically unfeasible to continue with ones creative works then it is natural that one will move on to other endeavors. I, for one, will continue to purchase those PAD titles that I enjoy regardless of format (I did purchase 3 of the first 4 NF books twice ’cause they were lost in the move). I just hope that the so-called ‘fans’ wise up.
Salutations,
Mitch
those fans whose support of monthly titles help provide the trade paperbacks…aside from saying, Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.
De nada.
My feeling is, if I don’t feel compelled to get the issue when it comes out, the series probably isn’t worth getting in TPB either. With CM, I simply cannot wait any longer than absolutely necessary to find out what you have in store each month. It’s a true must read.
I’m a retailer of a comic shop and as pleasing as it is for us to sell high-profit items like graphic novels, I keep reminding people that their ‘wait for the trade’ attitude is as bad for the industry as the whole 90’s variant cover thing.
One of the worse problems is that the discerning customer with a good (read; not automatically every title with an X) taste, tend only to get trades. Either that or people that are certain their favourite title will never be a tpb.
With our standing order system, people don’t want to admit that they want to get a title every month and are ‘weak geeks’ that have to get their fix, but then cave in anyway. As a graphic novel you can just splurge and get a whole tp which isn’t as bad as coming in on delivery day every week looking to see if your new title is out.
They don’t realise that it doesn’t matter. You’re standing in a comic shop. You’re here on delivery day as soon as possible. You pick the titles up anyway.
Get a standing order, it confirms another order of that comic and another guaranteed sale of comics that may not be on the shelf as often. Get the trade as well, it’s more money, but if you’re smart you’ll see if you can trade the issues in. Trade paperbacks come out so soon after a title/storyline finishes that hopefully the illusion that your comics are worth something will still be present to the retailer and customers.
Charlie
I’ve stopped collecting comics years ago and haven’t kept up with any of em in a long time. Nija Turtles was the last I collected as far as comics go. It all depended on money factor to me. I never went to buy every week, who could afford it??? I guess I’m one of the few that don’t care too much about the comic industry as a whole. Collecting comics is an $$$$ habit. Was hard for me to break but something had to give. heh. Some fans just get too carried away like we Trekkies used too. I can’t get gung-ho about em anymore.
You wonder why you got the reaction you did? Because idiots like Dirk Deppey misrepresent your message on journlista!, and people, reading that, and not following up, get this message from him
“Peter David accuses comics buyers who wait for trade paperbacks rather than purchase the serialized comics pamphlets of fûçkìņg with his meal ticket destroying the way the Direct Market has always done business. “
which is an incomplete and inaccurate representation of your statement. But of course, this is nothing new for The Comic Journal.
I think most people are responding to you without reading your full message, or understanding your point.
Jerry
I tend to fall in the trades contingent, but my reason isn’t really “I don’t care” nearly as much as “I can’t afford not to.”
Let my explain. I dislike individual comics as a medium. I think the 22-page format is a lousy one, especially for ongoing storylines. With something I want to re-read, I’ll need to have it in trade, because comics are too fragile/awkward/expensive and, above all, too hard to keep track of in the dámņ boxes. I’ve got about 15 longboxes of comics and not enough room as it is.
When I was working full time, I could afford to buy both the comic and the trade, and I frequently did. But I’ve been in grad school the past couple of years, and I’ve had very little money to spend. If I wait until the trade comes out, not only do I get a better, easier to find format, but I can check out the book ahead of time (in a bookstore), usually pay less for the same story, and make a more informed choice based on informed reviews.
I don’t have enough money to spend some of it on industry subsidy. I think the heavy reliance on trades is going to force a change; it just hasn’t happened yet (not much anyway). I think the equivalent of of Fallen Angel will, in a few years, simply have a TPB put out, and never exist as a monthly. This will have some pretty major repurcussions – the pay structure will have to completely change – but I think, in the long run, it will be good for the industry.
I may be a special case. I buy maybe three comics a month; most of the trades I actually do buy are collections from the silver or golden age.
But I think the 22-page comic is doomed. I think that the format – and, especially, its cost – are going to keep it from ever reaching the heights it did before. A few creators have already bucked the trend – hence “Endless Nights.” I think that’ll be the standard before long, and, like I said, I think it’s going to be good for the industry.
For the curious, this entire scenario seems to be another variation of the Prisoners’ Dilemma.
(There’s a good explanation plus a Perl version at http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/playground/pd.html . Another good explanation is at http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html )
Basically, if one person “Defects” (and awaits the TPB) while the others buy the series (Cooperate), then they “gain” over the Cooperators; they get the book in a format that is useful to them, possibly save money and/or get extras, and definitely get the whole story at once.
If no one “Defects”, and everyone Cooperates by buying the series, then no one is “gaining” as much as they would by waiting for the TPB.
If everyone “Defects” and awaits the TPB (or, more correctly, if -enough- people await the TPB), then the series is cancelled and everyone loses (either by the lack of an ongoing series or even the lack of the TPB itself).
I don’t have any good answers, although I note that some publishers are already coming to some interesting conclusions to resolve this Dilemma. For example, DC hasn’t published a Neil Gaiman series or miniseries in years; all new books come out directly in “TPB” form, very much akin to traditional book publishing. It might make an interesting experiment if, say, Well-Known Creator(s) went directly to a 144-page format, self-contained but scheduled to ship every six months (thus involving the same amount of effort as six months of a series). If a publisher is already planning on making most of its money by TPB sales in the first place, it doesn’t seem like they would come out that far behind. (And if a good publisher can’t afford to present its Well-Knowns with the equivilant of a six-month royalty advance… well, that may speak more volumes about the health of the industry itself.)
Peter, I read monthlies and I read Fallen Angel. That said, I have to point out that I see this industry trying to go in two directions. Monthly books and Trade Paperbacks. It occurs to be that the attitudes and expections of customers are leading to a mutual incompatabilty between these two audiences and that the comics industry cannot support both. That this problem is beginning to show up in the lower selling borderline books is the latest symptom of this problem I am speculating on. The internet in particular has been vocal, thanks to the fans of Warren Ellis downgrading the fan base of those who purchase “Pamplets.” Frankly, I would rather flame Ellis on a blog or a message board as read him thanks to the circulation of that term. So I may the wrong person to response to this. But I guess it boils down to whether you have a dedicated group of fans and/or company support. Peter, you get a lot of support on here, but you’ve never lead fans Lemming-like. And you’ve never had a company elevate you to the levels that a Bendis or a Millar have. Which is it seems you aren’t supported. Sorry dude, but I plan to get back into New Frontier and buy your Trek books regularly now whereas I didn’t before. It’s not much consolation, I figure, but’s all I can offer.
> The exchange of ideas and
> concerns is still only to be
> one way: Fans to creators.
My impression of people who are upset about the pro chilling effect is that it’s based on the opposite assumption: that the exchange of ideas, such as it is, is supposed to be one way in the direction of creators to fans, in the form of the stuff we’re fannish about.
They’re intimidated by pro presence because they wanted *not* to be exchanging ideas from fan to creator, but rather to be able to kvetch cosily to other fans without having the creator ever know about it.
And I can see the appeal of that. You tend to use stronger language and fewer disclaimers than you would if you were attempting to communicate with the creator directly. Much like it would be disconcerting to vent about your roommate to a friend, only to find him standing behind you with a ticked off expression.
Not that I’m saying creators should have to stay off the Internet or pretend they do. I like pro presence, it’s part of what makes SF cons such a pleasure. And anyway y’all don’t need my permission to move around the world.
But I do find that it is a pleasure to talk about, say, Buffy to other fans without pulling my punches the way I would if I were meeting Joss Whedon, and if he suddenly appeared in my livejournal to argue for the merits of season six, I’d be deeply disconcerted, not because I want to communicate with him and not be answered, but because I wasn’t trying to communicate with him in the first place.
PAD, although I do enjoy your work every month with Captain Marvel and the New Frontier books when they are released, the bottom line is that I just don’t have enough money for EVERY book that looks interesting. I’m currently buying 14 comics minimum per month, most of which are priced at $2.99. It’s not as many as I want to buy, but being a college student only allows for so much spending money. I make it a point to support good books, but I can’t support ALL the good books.
It has nothing to do with your writing or promotion of your books, it’s about money. At least in my case it is.
For the record, I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate the interaction you undertake with your fans. You talk to us, express your opinions, and keep us informed about the status of the books. Some writers and companies *coughcoughMarvelcough* feel content to simply leave us in the dark about so much of what going on. You don’t do that, and I honestly respect you for it.
I’m not one of those who wait for the trade, because in this industry, unless you’re a BIG seller, typically trades are slow in coming, if at all. I’d rather buy the single issues than hedge my bets and hope that it’ll be collected.
The only trades I buy are either: 1.) Material I couldn’t track down if I wanted to, nor afford, i.e. George Perez Avengers Visionaries or Squadron Supreme; or 2.) Books that I missed the boat on but realized my error. To give an example, I read Priest’s first issue of the Marvel Knights Black Panther series, and based on the tone, I thought, “Great. Take the one thing that really makes the Black Panther interesting, his royalty and his kingdom, and chuck it for urban stories.” Then I was re-introduced to the series during the “Sturm und Drang” storyarc circa Issue 25 and I was hooked.
Nevertheless, I keep buying the issues singly, and don’t plan on stopping anytime soon. I’ve bought every issue of Fallen Angel, every issue of Dreamwave’s TMNT, every issue of PAD’s Supergirl, and every issue of Captain Marvel that way, among my tons and tons of other monthly reads.
Now, if only Marvel would start doing trades collecting PAD’s Incredible Hulk run…I picked up Future Imperfect just a few months ago, and I *LOVED* it, but I came in during PAD’s last 2 or 3 years (right around Heroes Reborn), and I’d love to get some of those earlier stories. 🙂
We appreiciate your presence and interaction on the web.
On the issue-by-issue vs. TPB side, it’s $$$ pure and simple.
I quit buying all but 3-4 titles after being on a 25+ title/month standard after I got laid-off back in June 2001, and even though I am back to work it’s at no-where near what I was making before, and the comics just don’t seem to be worth it anymore. The TPB’s I can flip through at the bookstore and decide in advance if I want to spend on it. Have to watch the money closely… it boils down to $$$
I wait for trades on a case-by-case basis.
If I think a book is on the edge of getting one or not, and I really want to read the story, I’ll pick them up issue-by-issue. (Fallen Angel, Gotham Central and Sleeper fall into this category. Beware the Creeper did, too.)
If I think a book is on the edge, and I’m on the edge about it myself, I don’t pick it up. If the publisher decides it’s worth printing as a trade, I’ll have the opportunity to decide again about it. I may have heard really good things in the meantime, or I might have completely lost interest. (Runaways is in this category — I’ve heard good things, and will pick it up if they really are serious about publishing it this time.)
If the book is one that I’m fairly sure will get a trade, but I think reads better with “suspense breaks,” I’ll usually pick up the monthlies as well. (JSA is a good example of this; so is Fables.)
If I’m dead certain that a book will be getting a trade, and I’m likely enjoy it more if I read it in one sitting anyway, I’ll go for the trades. (Powers, Queen & Country, 100 Bullets, Y the Last Man, Transmetropolitan and a handful of Marvel books make up this niche for me. Some of them were books I didn’t catch on to until a trade or two was out.)
I often wait for miniseries — especially highly promoted ones that aren’t dependednt on the DCU or Marvel U as it stands now. Dark Knight Strikes Back was a gimme. I’m waiting for Matt Wagner’s Trinity. Darwyn Cooke’s New Frontier? Busiek & Immonen’s Secret Identity? I’ll wait for both. But when Brad Meltzer’s Identity Crisis comes out, I’ll want to read it as it comes in. (It helps that that ones a mystery, and could be easily spoiled for my by a stray comment. That’s what got me to pick up “Hush,” as well.)
There are only a few books that I buy in monthly and trade. Fables is one; Astro City is another (even though I try to get those cheap on Ebay).
But like most people, I assume, I don’t make these decisions on what’s best for everybody. I decide what’s best for me, for each individual book, and then buy it that way.
Rob
Peter, I feel you have every right to feel as you do. The people griping that you’re worried about your “meal ticket” — well, screw them. This *is* your meal ticket, of *course* you’re going to have a strong opinion! You’re entitled to that. Also, you aren’t the only creator who has a problem with the “wait for the trade” mindset. Another pair of writers have tried to convince readers that their fledgeling series won’t fly if the readers don’t invest in it, and that there’s no guarantee that that book will ever see TPB format anyway!
As for the formats, well, both have their merits and drawbacks, where reading and storage and price and other factors are concerned, and I’m one of those who prefer the single issues over the trades. I want my regular PAD and Gold Digger and New Mutants fix, so they take priority! Other books I like are squeezed out of my budget, so I put off getting them ’til later, if at all, as singles if possible, as trades as a last resort.
I have to wonder if the stateside manga publishers aren’t steering readers towards the “trades only” mindset. Viz and Central Park have both abandoned the monthly comic format and now issue their product in graphic novel form exclusively, and others may undoubtedly followed suit. Whether they’re catering to the readers’ demand or they’re causing the trend really doesn’t affect them as harshly, as they’re simply collecting and translating existing works, as opposed to creating new material on a constant basis.
Your position is clear, though, and you’re right. American comic publishers (Marvel and DC in this instance) are driven more by the sale of individual books… if sales of early issues are flat, the companies won’t have any interest in allowing the series to continue long enough to *produce* collections.
Wildcat
What’s the deal with “comics as single issues are dead?!” Comics as monthly/semi-monthly “pamphlets” have been around for nearly a century and suddenly they’re obsolete? Give me a break. I’m 23 and though my budget is fairly limited (i.e. college student), I’m somehow still able to scrounge enough to support one of my favorite hobbies and the creators who provide them.
I’ve already posted this link on another creator’s message board, but I think it’s relevant to the “waiting for the trades” discussions.
The post above primarily contains this text from Erik Veit:
[Begin Quote]
See…now here is my problem…
I was buying, and *enjoying* all the CG comics. About a year ago, it was clear that CG would publish ALL of their titles as TPBs. They even claimed it as their model.
So I stopped buying individual issues at that time, and started ordering the TPBs.
Westfield just told me that about 20 of the TPBs that I had on order were just canceled by the publisher.
I understand when publisher go out of business (Ultraverse anyone?). Anyway…
Here’s the rub: In retrospect, I would have bought the individual issues had I known they were going to fold. Now my choices are to let it all go, or do ebay crawls for all the back issues. I still want to read whatever they
published.
[End Quote]
The “Comics as single issues are dead” thing is based on one thing – price. In the last forty years, inflation has sent prices in general up about six-fold. As a result, what was 12 cents in 1963 should have been 72 cents in 2003. Instead, they’re about four times that. Dollar for time, comics are probably the single most expensive form of mass entertainment. Some sporting events and concerts come close, but kids can’t really afford them either. The price of comics threatens to put them beyond the reach of kids – and without kids, superhero books (which is what we’re primarily talking about here) aren’t going to survive.
Peter’s dead on right -I don’t know why people get nuts about what is a pretty black and white fact.
If it’s a mid selling book etc. and you decide to wait on the trade than obviously the sales may not warrant a trade.
On the other side – fans are right to say ‘Hey, I can’t shoulder the comics industry on my measly paycheck – I want a nice looking collectible trade.’
For me, I buy the monthlies b/c I can’t wait to see what happens next to my favorite character.
Why do I buy trades? Well my Ultimate Spider-Man collection looks better as a trade on the bookshelf – so I find myself collecting the monthlies, then trading them back and buying the trades.
But if it’s an indpendant book I go for the monthlies out of a sense of support and the simple fact that if everyone thought they’d wait for the trade – it won’t get made b/c the publisher won’t think there’s a demand.
This topic is really all about stating the obvious.
If you don’t buy the monthly the publisher won’t think there’s a reason for a trade.
The publishers really have to figure out a way to solve this. Comics will never be sold as trades where they wait six months and let out a six issue arc all wrapped up. But I think this would make me happier. I feel like the monthlies are just R&D for the publisher to decide which stories get the Barnes and Noble treatment as a trade.
Oh well – much like life – I said alot but still don’t know if I’m any better . . .
Gah…off-topic, but please, please do not paste in Google links. I had to page back and forth to read everything because the incredibly long link forced the formatting of the entire page to its width. Sites like shorterlink.com and tinyurl.com are your friends.
And, to say something on-topic, I read the monthlies, and cringe at the pretention exhibited whenever someone calls them “pamphlets”.
As Ben has said, the crux of the problem lies in the relatively huge price of standard 22-page comics. Something I hadn’t really thought about much until now! Still, I can’t see the market adjusting the price (downwards) any time soon …
I tend to buy the comics, and am enormously peeved when a TPB comes out with additional material. I feel like I’ve been ‘had’. It’s a lousy way to ‘reward’ the faithful, semi-forcing them to pay twice for the same material. I think, PAD, if the powers-that-be agreed not to do this then some (significant?) part of the patron ‘leakage’ would be eliminated.
With regard to your interaction with/among the fans – a) I appreciate the time you spend with us (I’m particularly amazed at the time you’ve spent on the ‘ask your questions and I’ll answer them’ blog events); and b) I think I understand your anger at those who object to your attack on their viewpoints. Nothing gets me angrier than intellectual cowards who resort to childish invective when they discover that they can’t defend their accusations.
Cheers,
Brad
(Is there any way the entry box for comments in this form can be made bigger? Under Mozilla 1.01 there’s only about 30 characters per line)
Peter,
You hit on a couple of major things in your entry that I want to reply to. Having the pleasure of meeting you a few times in the past at conventions, you’ve always been open with all fans. Of course, I haven’t tried to talk to you in the men’s room or while you’ve been eating a meal, unlike so many fanboys. They tend to forget, or don’t care that this is part of your JOB. Public relations is a major deal. The internet has made it way too easy for someone to write something, then get accepted as “truth”, just because it’s on a web page. No fact checking, and often no real name or way to contact. That gives cowards a sense of power that they normally don’t have otherwise.
Your blog here gives fans something lacking in comics. A chance for near instant feedback. Back in the “old days” all we as fans had was writing a letter to the comics, hoping they might actually be read. We never knew if our thoughts, ideas, or concerns were even read by a living person that cared. By opening up your blog, you have proven you DO care. And that’s something we as fans do appreciate, even if we don’t say it enough.
Of course, something that is almost inevitable, is people taking what you say out of context to bolster their own beliefs. Sad, but true. And honestly, I don’t know what can be done about this, other than chalk them up to being sad little trolls that really need to get a life. For you, writing and comics are your life (or else a major part of it). For us, it’s an escape from life. Those people just haven’t learned that there is a difference.
On to the topic of trades. I stopped buying monthly comics YEARS ago. In fact, I got out of even reading comics totally. Then I discovered the trade paperbacks. Here was a way I could keep up with the stories and characters I liked, but didn’t have to make the weekly trek to the comic shop and spend money on those, as well as a ton of other books that I didn’t want, but had a vague interest in reading. Add to the fact that the cost of 2-3 comics surpased one paperback book. It wasn’t a hard choice.
Plus, the publishers that came out with the holofoil/embossed/variant covers made casual collecting a nightmare. Unless you had a running detailed list of your collection in your pocket or head, sometimes you didn’t know if you had a particular issue or not.
I do agree that publishers need to wait longer before releasing titles in trade form. A year seems to work for the book publishers, so I can’t see why it wouldn’t work for comics. Just look at DC. The first half of “Hush” was released before the series ended. So much for the buyers of the monthly title. Marvel’s Ultimate titles, the same thing. Why should we, as fans, buy the monthy books when the trade paperbacks (and larger hardbacks) are going to be available in just a few months?
Trades give fans a chance to read a story based on good reviews, instead of the risk of picking up a new book and having no idea what they are getting. Again, going back to the “Hush” example, folks raved about the art, but they complained about the story. If I wanted just good art, I would invest in fine art or lithographs. For me, in comics, the story HAS to be more important than the artwork. And the best of all worlds is when both the art and story are quality.
All I’ve heard about Fallen Angel is good. I will be picking up the trade collection when it comes out. However, my major interest in your work is in the Star Trek/New Frontier universe. This doesn’t mean I disrespect or dislike your other works, quite the opposite. But, there are just not enough hours in the day or money in the bank to buy and read everything.
Again Peter, thank you for all your good work, and for the chance to respond directly to you here on your blog.
…even if your political ideas are wacky… : )
(That’s a smile…meaning it’s a joke for folks that think this was a slam. Just because we don’t agree on things, doesn’t mean we can’t get along or have reasonable discussions.)
Now gotta go watch the ending of Alias…there’s a whole lot of shootin’ going on!
I’m in the middle here. I buy my share of monthlies, including Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Captian, America, Fallen Angel, adn Dreamwave’s Transformers. But I also read Ultimate Spiderman and New X-Men through trades. I’ve never bought a single issue.
I like the idea of trades, but they lack something single issues excell at: Anticipation.
There’s nothing like that feeling of going to the comic book store and getting part 6 of a 6 part storyline and taking it home. It’s like a movie premiere or the season premiere of a favorite show. I love this feeling and though I think trades are great, monthlies shouldn’t be pushed aside for anything.
Comics fans can be some of the worst fans out there. What can any of us do?
Well, about the price of comics — when I started reading them in 1989, they were about a buck a pop. Now, instead of doubling in just over 10 years like inflation is supposed to, they cost two-and-a-half to three times what they did, and sometimes more.
Of course, I can’t really blame the comics industry for not seeing what any industry is incapable of seeing — a lower price on a popular item will attract more buyers. PAD made this point in the open letter that started the U-Decide debacle, and it rings true to this day. If you make a profit of 50% from 100,000 units, is it better or worse than making 40% from 200,000 units?
I buy trades only to catch up with titles that I’ve missed, I see no other use for them.
I don’t want to wait for months to get my fix of Amazing Spider-Man or Captain Marvel. Waiting for trades would also mean that I’d have to avoid spoilers for long periods and that’s pretty much impossible considering how much I post at different forums.
I usually only buy older stories(Master Works) in TPB form or long epics(Earth X).
Besides that I can’t see the FUN in only buying TPBs. Perhaps I have an old school view of reading and buying comics but I love going to the comic shop, having a pull-list, collecting my books in bags, etc etc etc .
I also don’t really consider it a money issue. Sure, in the long run I’d save money buying TPBs, but I find it easier to pay a few bucks every weeks than to have to plant $15 down for each TPB that I want.
Also, knowing the affect that TPBs are having on books like Fallen Angel really make me want to support them monthly.
Oh, and PAD, I think your presence on the net is a great thing. Personally I love it when the writers of my favorite books communicate with the fans. Your “Ask Me Anything” events are always fun and I know they can be grueling but we fans do appreciate your time.
Simply put here is my feeling on trades.
I’ll buy trades only because I got into a series 40 issues too late. Example 100 Bullets. Never thought it would be my cup of tea. I’m a superhero guy. Looked at the first trade and loved the look of it and the start. Now the back issues are over double digits. So I’m forced to get the trade.
I love the comic book format. I’m just a traditionalist at heart.
I remember PAD being on GEnie and Prodigy already when I first hooked to the ‘Net in 1992..he was the only Pro I noticed online at the time.
Ed
Peter:
Sounds like you’re about as depressed as I’ve been lately, although for different reasons.
(Public service announcement: Congestive Heart Failure is a real you-know-what to deal with folks! If you haven’t seen your doctor lately: DO SO!)
Anyway, I’ve been having to deal with a lot of physical and emotional issues myself lately, and it certainly has been no picnic.
But lets look at things in a positive light for a moment. I have and have READ every issue to date of Fallen Angel and Captain Marvel. I can also say the same thing about Supergirl, Young Justice, the New Frontier books, and a LOT of other things you have written over the years thus far.
And as long as I’m still above ground I WILL continue to do so!
If you need labels, then here’s a couple for you.
You are an excellent writer. I rank you right up there with Edgar Rice Burroughs and Terry Brooks.
And from what I hear, you are a wonderful husband and father, although those closer to home can certainly provide better examples of that than me.
Don’t let the bean counters, nay sayers and other negative people get you down.
You keep writing, and I’ll keep reading.
Deal?
Sincerely, a long time fan. 🙂
Firstly, as a designer of trading card games, I agree that you are simply representing the viewpoint that you should have in your job. Sometimes I have to remind people that my livelihood depends upon their buying of the cards we make.
As a comic fan, let me tell you how hard it is to buy a comic that is not a trade paperback.
I don’t go to a comic store every month. Haven’t for seven years. I wanted to buy 1602, by Neil Gaiman.
I went into a local comic store. They asked, “Did you preorder it?” Of course, I hadn’t. They didn’t have any. They said, “We sold through about 50 copies, but we’re all out and not going to get any more.”
This doesn’t happen when I go to buy other things. Comic stores want to be mail order houses, not retail stores. They want their customers to tell them what to buy, buy it, and then sell it to them.
They don’t take chances. They don’t realize that if they sell a lot of something, somebody else might come in to buy it. That’s what popularity does.
So I’ve missed several issues of this book I wanted to read. My only alternative right now is to wait for the trade. Because my local comic store didn’t think it would be a good idea to get more of a hot title.
Must be even tougher if you’re making a comic that isn’t hot.
Anyway, I agree with what you said 100%, but as a consumer, sometimes the only alternative is to “wait for the trade.” Because the stores are very short-sighted. They’re not really stores at all, they’re just a place to leave your pre-order.
I buy the monthlies, and enjoy them very much. PAD makes all absolutely right points! I do have to say I’m sorry that everything you just said is no doubt gonna be ignored by the “I don’t Care Crowd”
I have to say while I’m a supporter of the monthlies, I also love TPBs as well. I was actually heavy into the TPB craze before it became popular.
But I still love the, so called, “Dead Phamplets” 22 pages still delivers a good story – and I hope some people don’t forget that.
Eh, enough blabbering. Duck and Cover PAD, the “I don’t care” crowd is launching another assult!
I’m not one to “wait for the trade,” and I don’t buy trade paperbacks if I have the monthly issues. The only tpb’s I buy are collections of issues of titles I’ve come to late (Fables) or older back issues I can’t find or afford (Batman: Tales of the Demon). Hard to imagine waiting for something I can easily enjoy on a monthly basis.
Another point that I would like to make:
There should be a fun incentive to buy monthlies. Back before there were even trades you would pick up a comic and find a fun story PLUS a letters page, Stans Bullpin, etc. Now your lucky if you get a letters page. The covers have become as generic as the trade covers and neither forshadows the story within.
While glossy-chrome and multiple covers have become an over done gimick they did give people a reason to pick up a monthly comic. Of course many of them did it to simply “get rich.” However it gave people something fun to collect and they didn’t have to be told to buy a monthly simply for the good story or artwork.
As an older reader (Avengers Vol l # 1), I too lament what seems to be the passing of the comicbook. I have fond memories of walking several miles to the only variety store in town that sold comics, eagerly picking up a new issue of a favorite series, amazed by the creativity of the writers and artists, or on some days being told “Sorry, nothing this week.” For me trades just don’t have that magic. I fear, however, that unless the big companies turn their focus away from Hollywood and back to what caught people’s attention in the first place, the comicbook may be doomed or simply become a luxury item.
As for you, Peter, please don’t let the hypersensitive, illogical troglodytes get you down. We need – or at least, I need – you to keep writing in whatever format is available to you. I read prodigious amounts of everything from philosophy to quantum mechanics to, YES, comicbooks and I can safely say there is not a writer out there who so consistently gives me more food for thought, more effective renditions of rampant paronomasia and humour that actually leads me to laugh out loud.
Live long and, well, you know…
P.S. For the person who wondered why you left the -th off “commonwealth”. “commonweal” is an old-fashioned term for “the public good”.
Cheers D. Black
Ideas?
For what it’s worth, DC used to have a rule against reprinting any story less than five years old.
Taking your points into account, I’d say that rule suddenly seems to make a lot more sense.
Think we’d get DC to go along?
Ah, well.
-DB Bennett
(See? Some of us allegedly creaky old Hal Jordan fans care about the commonweal too! 🙂 )
Perhaps one thing we’re all overlooking is the fact that trades are a great way to attract casual readers. I count myself among this group. I’m more likely to pick up a complete story than I am to go through back issue bins trying to put together a complete set. It seems that right now the industry is surviving on a small core of loyal readers. Trades are an effective way or reaching the mainstream.
TPB are supposed to fix all the errors of the single issues right? And sometimes they’re supposed to be released as a “Director’s Cut” mentality.
So when there’s a typo or discolored panel it ought to be corrected in the TPB. Marvel’s recent G.I. Joe collection, just ask Larry Hama, collected the single issues with the same coloring mistakes in issue #21 and even missed printing a page of another issue in a certain volume only to have the next volume add the page later.
There are more points that can be inserted within the TPB vs. the Monthlies and maybe one thought might be: the single issues should concentrate on beefing up more on the extra or behind the scenes things—at least in some respects—like, I know that since I don’t read Powers on the single issue basis I’m missing out on great fan letters and as I understand it, a pseudo-editor character that Bendis created to respond to the letters. That’s a nice touch to thank the readers for true monthly loyalty, but obviously not everyone should follow suit, can follow suit or be expected to do so.
But sometimes you miss things when you don’t pick up the single issues. Did you miss Bone #19 because it got collected in, strangely, Bone Reader or never read it at all in the sequential volumes and did not know about it because the creator deemed it unnecessary for the flow of the bigger picture? Or how about how Marvel skipped issue #19 of Ennis’ Punisher and eventually put it in TPB #4 instead of #3? (Not that it mattered, it was a self-contained story.)
Well, how about a Somerset Holmes example? The single issues had a backup story (same writer, different artist), which didn’t get published in the TPB. Often times the extras are added in with the TPB.
Sometimes one cannot trade in the single comic book issues because there are titles no one wants. When I dropped Blade of the Immortal from my monthly pickings to focus on TPB I had a devil of a time getting anything for the single issues I now had in collected form. In fact, I think I wound up giving away $50 worth of comics because no retailer wanted them.
Let’s not forget how the TPB or HC can get screwed up with page orders or whatever. For me, in my 25 years of buying comics with a fixed-wait I’ve encountered more trouble with TPB than the single issues.
Some examples I’ve faced with TPB are (off the top of my head):
Grendel: War Child had all but 2 pages in Chapter 7 upside-down.
Batman: Nine Lives had a repeat of 10-20 pages toward the end of the story.
Sin City: A Dame To Kill For had pages out of order where Dwight winds up meeting Ava in the bar for the first time in issues 3? Huh?
And get this, Dark Horse doesn’t care, and unfortunately since I already traded in my single issues when the HC came out this OOP HC leaves me SOL.
Single issues:
Occasionally, even after trying to pick up a decent condition one off the shelf has left me with comics with reject staples or folded, or unevenly cut pages.
Lori Lovecraft In Time Past Pt II had a repeat of pages so the complete story was missing. I’ve since re-ordered it directly from the lorilovecfraft.com
The solution? ( I’m going to be sarcastic here so I’m read correctly) is to follow Mark Millar’s disdain to hit deadlines. He’s probably selling more Ultimates because people can’t wait for the trades because the single issues take so long as it is!
My 2 cents,
Jacob B.
Tucson, AZ
In response to various points raised:
1) I remember exactly when I started on the Internet because it was brought to my attention that fans on computer message boards were discussing “The Death of Jean DeWolff,” and that’s what prompted me to show up. That came out in October of 1985. Considering it’s now 2004, saying “nearly 20 years” seems about right.
2) “Commonweal” is a word. It means “the general welfare.”
3) I am shocked–SHOCKED–to learn that a representative of TCJ is giving me something other than a fair shake. I’m sure this is merely an isolated incident and that, in the interest of fairness, that same columnist will be excoriating Gary Groth as a jáçkášš for openly imploring fans to buy FBI backstock last year in order to save his business–i.e., his meal ticket–from going under.
4) The “rewarding” of fans who wait for trades with additional material is a fair point. I have no easy answer for it. I can point out that the majority of trades these days have no additional material. I can also point out that the reward to the supporters of monthlies is, hey…they get the story ahead months ahead of other folks and don’t have to worry about spoilers.
The fact is that, in the old days, first issues of comics had introductory letters pages, character sketches, etc. Thanks to the new format of monthlies, most new books don’t have them. Inserting such introductory material into trades enables a restoration of that sort of “connection” for the fans with the creative process.
Also, publishers have to view the trade as a separate package. They’re asking readers who are unfamiliar with the material to plunk down–not $2.50–but anywhere from $10 to $15 and up for it, so the extra material serves as an incentive. Plus there might be readers who passed it up on the newsstand because they just weren’t interested, but might be intrigued because the introduction was written by someone of note. In short, publishers are trying to take an up-priced product and make it more attractive.
I can see how that doesn’t seem fair. On the other hand, you could also say, Why bother to spend $10 to go see a movie in a theater one time when you can wait a few months and spend half that to rent a DVD from a local store (or buy it for around $25-$30), watch it a whole bunch of times and see all kinds of extras besides? (Okay, granted, a big positive is that it’s on a large screen. On the other hand, there’s idiots talking all around you and someone just spilled soda down your back so, y’know, it’s a trade-off.)
The main thing I can point out is that such collections–be it DVDs or trade paperbacks–feature material that can be seen as extras, but not necessities. The upcoming “Fallen Angel” trade paperback will feature an intro by a fairly well-known person (I hope). That’s a plus. But it will not feature the heretofore revelation of the Fallen Angel’s secret identity (and if you don’t buy and read this eight page story, the rest of the series will make no sense to you.)
I regret there’s no easy answer except to say…I dunno. Anyone who wants to send me their first six issues of “Fallen Angel” with a self-addressed stamped envelope, I’ll autograph ’em. Will that help? If nothing else, it might help you sell them for more on ebay so you can buy the trade…
PAD
Wow.
So many intersecting, yet independent, topics in one thread.
First, allow me to remind all that I do own a comics shop, so speak from the retailer’s POV.
The ‘Catch-22’ with trades, is one I’ve been griping about for, oh, about 20 years or so, and there are no one size fits all solutions.
Things that would help, though, include:
Waiting a minimum of 6 months after the last regular issue containing the story is released before publishing the trade.
Having occasional ‘done in one’ stories that are NOT included in the trades that collect story arcs.
Putting a premium on the price of the trades, so that the single issue total cost is actually lower than the trade price.
Having a double-tiered pricing system on trades – one attractive price for the hobby market, and a higher price for the bookstore (newsstand) market. This is something Marvel is currently doing with some of their regular comics series ($2.25 at shops, $2.99 on the stands).
One problem not mentioned yet is that, while the trades may (or may not) expose a wider audience to comics, they do allow for a significant slice of the business to be taken AWAY from traditonal comic shops. Having the trades (often at discount) in bookstores, Amazon, etc., means some of those sales are cannibalized from potential shop sales.
And the trades in those ‘non-shop’ outlets are returnable. Allowing a fixed percentage return on these higher-priced items for comics shops (say, for example, one-third of initial numbers, and 10% for re-stocks) would make it easier for the shops to stock these items in mnore depth, and the publishers would already have a built-in number that they could maximally expect to be returned, so their budgeting could reflect that – going in.
So far as (some) shops not stocking the monthlies in depth or not having enough extras – well, that may be the case with some shops, but others (such as my own) have back issues available and in stock (such as every issue of 1602 and also the CrossGen books, just as examples as mentioned above).
While ebay may be fine in its own right (and I have never once visited there) there are certainly shops, many with an online presence, that will be more than happy to fill orders for issues that may have been missed or run out at your local shop.
Part of the problem is also that the ‘thrill of the hunt’ we old-timers remember has been subsumed by the instant gratification that the ‘net and the trades permit – some folks just want all the issues they are missing ‘now’ and aren’t happy about getting some they may have missed from shop A and others from shop B.
Another part is either ignorance or laziness on the part of some customers at some comics shops. If the price of the comics is ‘too much,’ put some on hold, and save up enough to get them later (the resultant amount of $$ is what would have to be saved up for the purchase of the trade, anyway).
As for the six-fold ‘rule’ alluded to above – movies should therefore cost about $1.50 – the prices involved in each medium simply cannot be allotted across the board according to some arbitrary formula. Some things (electronics, for example) go down in price. Others (hardcover and paperback books, weekly news magazines, newspapers, comics) go up in price. The aggregate theoretical ‘shopping basket’ total price may have increased six-fold over the period in question, but each of its components and their prices will have changed up or down individually, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes as a result of market conditions or inherent costs (paper, talent, etc.).
Yes, comics are too expensive – but they are not at an unsustainable level yet.
Several years ago, Marvel tried their 99
TPB are supposed to fix all the errors of the single issues right? And sometimes they’re supposed to be released as a “Director’s Cut” mentality.
Aw, man, you WOULD bring that up.
I remember when Marvel did a trade of “The Death of Jean DeWolff.” The original four issues had a whole bunch of annoying little mistakes in them (such as one panel where Spidey is swinging and they forgot to ink in a webline, so he’s holding onto the balloon pointer.). I gave a detailed list to editor Jim Salicrup and he fixed every one…and then the trade was released with two pages out of order, right at the end, totally screwing up the climax of the story.
And there was something like four pages out of order when the collected edition of “Future Imperfect” came out.
Brother.
PAD
(quote) Sometimes one cannot trade in the single comic book issues
because there are titles no one wants. When I dropped Blade of
the Immortal from my monthly pickings to focus on TPB I had a
devil of a time getting anything for the single issues I now had
in collected form. In fact, I think I wound up giving away $50
worth of comics because no retailer wanted them.(unquote)
Not to be insensitive, but really, what is the point here?
There is never any guaranteed aftermarket for anything. Especially so for the casual, as opposed to those who do it as a vocation, seller.
You bought the items because you chose to – and presumably enjoyed them enough and got enough worth out of them to be motivated to get the trade collections in addition to the single issues – that a bonus above and beyond that enjoyment and worth was not readily forthcoming is, to put it bluntly, irrelevant.
Comics are (generally) no more readily fungible than any other item purchased from any other outlet – though the market and mindset of much of the comics-reading universe has always strived to dent this.