I think this is important enough to say separately from the previous thread, and it’s addressed to anyone who thinks I might be overreacting to a simple blowhard:
I take threats seriously.
Repeated threats, I take very seriously.
Repeated threats with others joining in adding suggestions, I take extremely seriously.
You think I shouldn’t?
You weren’t standing in an elevator with Bill Mumy at SDCC when a fan lunged for his throat shouting, “Send me to the cornfield, Bill!”
You haven’t had friends who have had to hire private guards, obtain court orders, and never set foot in certain cities, all to avoid stalkers.
You haven’t been subjected to letter writing campaigns of harassment from people because you *refused* to confront them.
You haven’t done a store appearance where a guy showed up and berated fans on line for a solid half hour simply because they wanted your autograph, and the store clerks wouldn’t throw the guy out because they were afraid of him, so you had to do it yourself.
And you don’t have to be worried that you’ll be standing at a convention holding your one year old daughter in your arms, chatting with someone, and suddenly some guy is going to come up to you and take a shot at you and he misses you and you’re standing there covered in your child’s blood.
And of course you can say, in the words of Superchicken, Well, Fred, you knew the job was dangerous when you took it. For every perk of fame, there’s a drawback. And that’s true as far as it goes.
But don’t for a microsecond think that I don’t take threats seriously. And for those people who claim they “know” the people making threats, and “know” they would never, ever, ever, do something truly violent: The majority of murders in this country are committed by someone the victim knows.
Yes, kids. I take threats seriously. If you don’t, that’s nice. It’s nice to be able to afford that luxury.
I can’t.
PAD
• 
Ðámņ. I mean, dámņ…
I can’t even begin to imagine how I might react if someone took a swing at me and instead hit my son (actually, I can, and it ain’t pretty). If I sounded flip on the other thread, I appologize. I would appologize on behalf of all fandom, but I doubt that some people would go along with it. It is always strange for me to think of things on the other side – I have always tried to be enthusiastic, but also non-confrontational and polite when I meet a creator I admire, so when I hear of incidents like this, I am truly appalled (obviously not nearly as much as you are (and rightly so), but appalled nonetheless). You are one of those creators whose work I try to follow no matter what you’re writing, and I have tremendous respect for you. It’s more than a shame that not everyone does…from the examples you’ve given, it is obviously a crime.
You should take threats eriously. There are many disturbed individuals out there with a wacky sense of priorities. I have read some horror stories, like someone trowing vomit at a writer at a convention. Not funny at all.
Hope you and yours are always safe man!
I don’t blame you…we’ll ignore that the guy apparantly runs a galactus sex web site…there was just a whole creepy vibe that perhaps this guy cares just a little too much about Mary Marvel….
>shiver<
Joe Rice..a name to have watched out for on the admission lists, I think.
I think it’s absolutely prudent and appropriate to NOT assume these guys are “just kidding,” and if possible, take steps to hold them accountable for their words.
I recall seeing something a few months ago about some teenagers attacking the musician Moby outside of a club. One of the scariest things about it is when you watch the tape, you see they actually took the effort to strategize the attack so everyone around Moby would be distracted while they took turns hitting him.
Now, if those guys posted on a message board that they were planning an attack on Moby, I’m willing to bet anyone reading would figure they were “just kidding.” And while I don’t think Moby was too seriously hurt, there’s no reason why it couldn’t have gone differently.
Even if these guys at CBR were “just kidding,” I think they should be held accountable for what they said. People need to start realizing that people can’t see your face, hear your voice, or read your mind when you post on an internet message board. In a lot of cases (as in this one), they don’t even know your real name. You can’t just assume that things you say are going to be automatically receives exactly as you meant them.
People should be able to say what they want, but at the same time they need to be held accountable for their words.
A quote from one of the posts on that board:
Then you read far too much into his rant. And you obviously don’t know Joe at all.
Sounds like Joe is somebody I don’t want to know.
Could someone explain that Bill Mumy cornfield reference?
And someone hit your child? That’s just…
I hope you pressed charges.
And well you should take them seriously, Peter. The world has enough John Lennons, Selenas, Rebecca Schaeffers, killed for their fame. And the comics scene does have a very small but visible portion of folks with poor connection to reality. This guy may be just some dolt who gets his jollies posting threats while hiding behind a pseudonym, or he could be someone whom everyone assumes is joking until the trigger is pulled. The folks who say they know him, who say that his threats of violence against real and specific people are just a joke, are probably right… but “probably” is a small consolation.
And if treating them as serious discourages other people from “joking” about attacks on creators, all the better.
Could someone explain that Bill Mumy cornfield reference?
It’s a reference to Bill’s role as young Anthony Fremont in the Twilight Zone episode, “It’s a Good Life.” As a kid who held a town in terror because he could do anything, if someone pìššëd him off he’d “send them into the cornfield.” That is, they’d just vanish, never to be seen again.
And someone hit your child? That’s just…I hope you pressed charges.
Oh, good lord, no. Sorry if I was unclear on that. That’s my “what if” scenario, going through my head as something that *could* happen. No, no one’s ever taken a shot at me, physical or with a gun. Let’s nip *that* little misunderstanding in the bud.
The other stuff I mentioned, though…that all happened.
PAD
As they say, asked and answered.
I still don’t feel the issue merited such a blow out, but I feel I must *retract* my statement about the threats and all these nonsense.
If you feel threaten, you should react however you see fit and appropriate. Not only for yourself, but for your love ones sake too.
Wow. Did those losers start to backpedal fast, or what? In the beginning, whether they were kidding or not, there certainly were several overt threats. When you get into specifics like having a group of people with you, and which Con you plan on staging your “prank” as well as the strongly worded use of terms like “reckoning”, then it’s no wonder that people would jump to conclusions; it’s not that far to jump.
It sounds to me like these guys are, in the very least, guilty of a very sick sense of humor and were using the anonymity of the internet to vent frustrations. At worst they actually were planning something and scattered like the cockroaches they are when the spotlight was shined on them.
Either way, they look like a couple of jerks to me. Threats, kidding or otherwise, aren’t to be taken lightly.
Phinn
Amen. And more power to you.
What I think the “threateners” fail to realize is that “joking threats” are usually not taken seriously among friends because of the presumed intimacy/friendship between the folks involved. For public figures and their fans, that intimacy just ain’t there, and some fans forget that.
Oh… thanks for clearing that up. It occurred to me after I hit “post” that you might be thinking “what if” with that.
And I actually remember (vaguely) that Twilight Zone episode.
Tho, why anyone would attack Mr. Mumy is beyond me…
I love that they’re trying to make it look like it was obviously a joke. Because if someone you don’t know posts on a message board you don’t frequent that he has a plan to “get” you, it’s obviously satire. Jáçkášš.
And for the record, in the story, Mary Marvel was not raped. All right? Here’s the deal. For some reason, this cop in Leesburg takes Mary out to his car. From his point of view, he’s just giving her a good talking-to. From her point of view, he’s a leering old man trying to grope her. The facts are never made clear. ‘kay? ‘kay.
I agree threats should be taken seriously, but I think we also should be careful not to become a community/culture where we all have bodyguards around us all the time or build walls.
I would never threaten someone and I’ve been threatened so I know how that feels but I also know that you shouldn’t live your life in fear.That’s part of the problem with our national psyche right now.
I’m sorry for Billy Mumy. I’m sorry PAD feels threatened. I would never wish that on anyone.
But I again said I was gonna slap Dan DiDio after getting his side on something and I was completely joking. I’d never actually slap someone. If I had to get physical with anyone in self-defence, it certainly isn’t going to be just a slap.
So you can say something jokingly, but you have to make sure it is obvious and apparent, such as a disclaimer of some kind or being in the right company.
As for bullies, bullies don’t always threaten, sometimes they just do what they want and don’t care. I have a friend who would bully people into doing what he wanted to do when we went out, until recently. Fortunetly he grew out of it.
Just some of my thoughts.
Michael Norton
I’m a public school teacher, and even though the vast majority of us are not famous (any fame at all is usually infamy, anyway), we have the same kind of crap happen all the time. Kids make threatening statements, jokingly or not, and they wonder why they get suspended or detained or whatever.
Never mind obvious stuff like Columbine; I’ve known teachers who have been beaten by students, by parents, etc. I’ve had students that were serious drug addicts and obviously unstable individuals. I’ve had students who were on probation for felonious assault (but tried as a juvenile), self-confessed murderers, and known rapists.
I recently read an article that suggested “if your comic fan isn’t vehemently complaining about something, check him to see if he’s dead” or something like that. It’s funny until people like the individuals on the CBR boards say this kind of thing and we realize that it’s all too common for fans (of anything) to take their opinions/feelings/complaints too far.
I don’t blame PAD one little bit for taking this seriously. It’s all too bad, too, because the complaint the “fans” raise over on the CBR board is a common one that does bear discussion: Does a writer (like PAD) “ruin” an established “kid-friendly” character (Supergirl or Mary Marvel) by placing that character in a relatively mature-audiences situation? (Murder and devil-worship on one hand, and alleged child molestation on the other.)
I don’t hold that opinion, but it is a topic that, under other circumstances, could yield interesting discussion. BTW, yes, I do remember that the murder and stuff was pre-Supergirl Linda Danvers and that redemption and forgiveness was a major element of the book. I’m just repeating the complaint.
Anyway, I’m sorry that all of this had to come up, Peter. I enjoy your work and find it thought-provoking and I look forward to reading more of it in the future.
Eric
And as long as Joe Nonentity likes to toss around vague threats how about this one: if I’m at a convention and I see some dillweed take a poke at PAD I’ll just assume it’s Our Boy Joe and join in the no doubt considerable crowd of folks taking turns kicking his scrawny fan-boy ášš.
Do cons have any sort of policy regarding attacks by fans? I’ve been to a few where things got quite uncomfortable and the pro being (verbally) accosted was looking around for some sort of official backup. The incident Peter mentions in the bookstore makes me wonder if this is something that hasn’t been given sufficiant thought.
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that threats are not to be taken lightly. I especially feel for Bill Mumy, as a friend of mine had a wonderful chance encounter with him at a con a while back. Apparently, it’s not often he’s asked to sign an LP of Fish Heads.
Give ’em hëll, Peter.
As someone who has nutjobs in his biological family, I think Peter is very wise to take any such threats seriously. That really sucks. I hate that such things have happened…
Your feelings are valid, of course, Peter. In your situation, they even make sense. Having been on the wrong end of a gun in an armed robbery, I take jokes about “stick ’em ups” a little differently than most. Also, as a fairly anonymous person, internet threats don’t mean much to me, but for someone with a higher profile, I can see how disturbing they might be.
I don’t know that I’d run the poster into the ground as is being done here, since he took the effort to apologize and recognize his poor taste (not saying you’re doing that, Peter, just that others are).
Have any of those throwing stones never themselves said something reckless and stupid?
I’ll come at this from the other side, that of the con organizer. Whenever a guest like Peter attends, security is always a concern. Quite frankly, there are always a few fringe fans who take things a little too seriously. I personally have watched a ‘fan’ jump over a table to try to get to a Marvel intern because they told him his book was being canceled.
Threats like this have huge implications. I’m not sure if most of you are aware, but authors like Peter are often not compensated to attend conventions unless they are a guest of honor. If they no longer feel comfortable attending, a lot of what makes con experiences so positive will go poof.
Jeff Linder
Vice Chair – Philcon 2003
Chair – Philcon 2004
Keep in mind also that threats don’t have to involve physical violence to be taken seriously.
A couple of years ago on PAD’s AOL message board, some creep got hacked off at PAD because of a losing argument that was making him look bad.
He threatened to retaliate by sending a letter to a national deaf organization stating that a story PAD wrote for DC was a negative portrayl of deaf people. It wasn’t and this creep KNEW it wasn’t (he had done a favorable review of the story himself).
He boasted that his letter requested that the deaf organization boycott DC books due to PAD’s story. This could have potentially caused PAD to lose a writing job if the organization took this idiot seriously (which apparently they didn’t).
PAD took the creep seriously enough to assure him that he would be sued for libel if PAD did encounter any trouble with DC over the letter.
No violence involved or implied but still a very serious threat.
I just re-read the thread. I still don’t see any “joke”, especially in this sequence:
Originally posted by fly on the wall
Expletive is right, Mary Marvel was in the book for quite a while.
I remember some sort of rape and physical humiliation. I’d have to rip my collection apart to find it, check those issues Expy D listed.
How quickly do you need the info?
No rush. The con isn’t until the last weekend in November. I have until then to decide what to do.
Originally posted by Deathstroke
Do about what?
I think he is planning on doing ‘something’ to PAD and I’m sure it’s not going to be good either.
Originally posted by fly on the wall
I may have to go with him. If he’s taking on Peter David, he’s going to need some tonnage to back him up.
Thanks, Double-B. I appreciate the synopsis.
Now for the planning.
There will be much to do at this con. There will be Operation: Mary’s Revenge and Operation: Infinite Earths.
Joe,
Why are you angry at the story? Because of what happened to Mary? Or because you feel it was told poorly?
I really think that you at least ought to read it for yourself before you make any decisions on it.
I have never read it, but it sounds like something that would make me angry, not at Peter David for writing it, but just the topic of child molestation in general.
Mark B.
You’ve got a point, but if I get enough trustworthy firsthand accounts I’ll go with it. Especially since this is the same guy that wrote that creepy high school shower scene for Ed Benes to draw.
There will come a reckoning. The fictional have their rights as well.
Yup. It would have to be a masterpiece written by someone of incredible talent for something like that to work. Peter David is not that someone.
Before this he was just another writer I didn’t care for. He’s gone beyond that now. He’s gone beyond Johns. He’s gone beyond them all. He will pay.
You gotta be kidding me?
You want to know the info so you can start a scene with PAD?
A scene? A scene? Do you take me for some amateur, some kind of un-nuanced ruffian? Hah!
A scene indeed! Hah!
It’s not until after he’s told this was brought to PAD’s attention that he says:
What did you people think I was going to do? Assault the man? Engage him in some sort of debate? Do you understand what it is to post about something that really bothers you, but in a joking way? “Keep it civil”? “Attacking Peter David”? For, er, Pete’s sake, I’m blowing off stream about a story idea I find highly distasteful. All the sudden the “You’re Mean” team comes in and tries to set everything aright.
Then after being attacked for not recognizing what was supposedly an obvious joke, the individual who reported it here says:
And Joe, I know you, and I know what you posted. “Planning,” “Operation: Mary’s Revenge,” “There will come a reckoning,” what did you think we would think, that you were going to shake your finger very strongly at a picture of the man? Considering your predilection for making a complete ášš of yourself, I think I was justified in my worry.
I only have what I see on the boards to go on. Based on his words, and his actions during past “crusades,” I felt I made the right call. If you have information you feel would change this perception, kindly share it.
Looks to me like several people on that board, not just the one who first came here, felt he was going to start something with PAD at the con. Sorry, but even with all the ex post facto denials, I could not put it past this guy to verbally assault a creator at a con over a comic book story. He just seems like the type that takes his comics way too seriously. Ironic, for someone who claims to have such a great sense of humor.
This all reminds me of why so many of my teacher friends absolutely refuse to live near the schools they work at. I know it’s not seen as “celebrity” like being a poluar writer or actor or whatever. They want to maintain a separation between work and home life. Plus, should the students who DON’T like them for whatever reason learn of their location…especailly if that close to school, they would feel lucky if it was just vandalism done. I have had run-ins with folks who take issue with me at various jobs and such and can only imagine how much worse it can be when the person upset is upset because of perceived slights and not actual slights. Even when dealing with message boards and the like, it’s hard to get across tht you may be joking. And when someone joins in and eggs you on, makes it even harder. Plus, the anonymity of the net makes it easier to rant and get overly excited about something. With or without outside input. Kind of like the mob mentality. Or kids who throw rocks and stuff from a moving bus/car/whatever. Heck, isn’t that the whole explanation for how Peter Parker acts like he does as Spidey? Not to belittle the situation, just making an observation. One can never know who is serious and who is just acting out. Me? I tend to go to a con wanting to talk about the good stories and the bad stories but tend to cut it short when the line is too long. But PAD was one of the few to actually make time.
That’s my POV, anywho.
Robbnn:I don’t know that I’d run the poster into the ground as is being done here, since he took the effort to apologize and recognize his poor taste (not saying you’re doing that, Peter, just that others are).
Have any of those throwing stones never themselves said something reckless and stupid?
I will immediately identify myself as someone who A) is one of your “stone-throwers” and B) someone who has said a lot of reckless and stupid stuff.
I go by the name “The Anti-Grimm” on Alvaro’s comic boards, and anyone who’s ever frequented that Hulk board KNOWS I’ve said a lot of reckless and stupid stuff.
But, as silly as some of the stuff I’ve said has been, I have always been very, very careful to ne “get personal” when it comes to the creator. And I’ve taken people to task who have gotten personal several times, most memorably with a guy who called Paul Jenkins the Anti-Christ. I think the worst I ever did was to answer a “Hulk’s Top Ten Villains” poll with John Byrne’s name.
And another thing is that I must’ve missed something because I haven’t read of any of the folks on CBR apologizing for what they said. And that’s another thing. It was a poster, it was several.
Peter:
I can’t blame you one bit.
It used to be easier for fans to communicate with those whose work they liked.
Now I feel like I’m walking a tightrope whenever I do get the chance to say anything to someone ‘famous’.
You never know how you are going to be perceived or responded to.
Some world we live in now, huh?
Brandon wrote: …a story PAD wrote for DC was a negative portrayl of deaf people. It wasn’t and this creep KNEW it wasn’t (he had done a favorable review of the story himself).
Which story was this? The only one I can name off-hand is a Supergirl issue where she visited a school for the deaf.
eddie bart
My God…
…after viewing that thread, I’m utterly speechless.
I don’t care if you’re only joking, or blowing off steam. You don’t threaten ANYONE with violence or some hinted retribution. If it was all a big joke, it’s a very cruel joke.
I love Spider-Man. I started reading Spider-Man a couple of years before the Clone Saga. I hated the Clone Saga. But I never threatened the writers or editors. You know why? At the end of the day, these are comic books, an entertainment medium, written by hard-working folks who want to craft imaginative tales that entertain. These are fictional characters. You may care about them, but ultimately, they are works of fiction. If you don’t like the way a character is handled, you have two reasonable choices: don’t read the book and hope for the day when the character will be written the way you want; or you can just shrug it off and cherish the depiction of the character you’ve already seen, and re-read it often.
I swear, just when I think I’ve seen the worst in people, I read something like this, that chills me to the core.
I can’t help but think that Dadamerican’s biggest mistake was poking fun at one the regulars from PAD’s blog. As the recent political discussions (what — two, three weeks ago?) showed, it doesn’t take much to set this bunch off.
I thought his apology was classy, if a bit late in the game. The ideal time (and I’m not saying he didn’t do right by apologizing when he did) would have been after WriterBoy called him on it over on the other thread. A lot of this could have been avoided if WB hadn’t been met with a lot of “bad form” comments from people defending a cryptic threat.
As it stands, PAD, I don’t blame you for your reaction. What was in all likelyhood a severe over-reaction would have been the appropriate response in the unlikely event that the threat was genuine (and theoretically might still be; after all, I could have posted that apology as “Joe Rice, DaDamerican”). I mean, I may never have never been in a tornado, but I live in the midwest; I have a tornado survival kit.
I would like to direct everyone to the prior section about the thread. Joe Rice was man enough to come here and apologize, and I think what he said was sincere. It takes a lot to admit that you said something wrong, and he did so, not just on the boards there, but also here.
I’m not defending anything, I’m not taking sides (though I was posting there about my own views concerning the story that started it all) I’m just pointing out that after everything, he came here infront of all of you and really took it on the chin, admitted he was wrong, and asked to be forgiven.
You don’t have to give it, of course. I certainly think that it was a very mature and honest thing to do after the immaturity of the first few pages of the thread.
Still, I think that a lot of valuable things that were talked about are being lost and I think that’s a shame. As I said over there, I myself had some problems with the story when I initially read it and only got involved because I wanted to get to the meat of the issue, not any name calling. Unfortunately, now many people are acting like the entire thread was a batch of threats, which is just untrue. While I admit that I myself was shocked and dropped out of the thread for a while, I went back after I saw the apologies and have found it to be quite enlightening to talk about female comic book characters.
Again, I am not defending anything, just saying that apologies have been made and I believe them to be real and sincere. Maybe I’m naive and think that’s enough to make it a null issue, but I suppose sometimes apologies, no matter how well intentioned, just aren’t good enough.
Yow…read the thread. There are usually too many like this, but that doesn’t excuse them.
I have met Mr. David…he’s a fun guy, and honestly it sickens me to see people do this crap, because they don’t agree with something.
Honestly I understand why PAD takes precautions…because this isn’t probably the first time some reader got to attached to some character and didn’t loike PAD’s interpretation.
Overall it’s always nice to see for several decent…we get this, and no I don’t care if he’s just joking.
I scream fire in a full theatre…I must just be joking too. It’s in bad taste, plain and simple.
>>Which story was this? The only one I can name off-hand is a Supergirl issue where she visited a school for the deaf.<<
I can’t remember the specific title (I am thinking it was Young Justice but it might have been Supergirl). I do remember it was a DC title.
The schmuck in question had a website that reviews comics and had given the issue in question a good review. It was not until after his squabble on the PAD board with PAD and several board regulars (again I don’t recall the specific details) that he decided to use the YJ issue as fodder for a “payback” threat.
I noticed I was quoted from a post over on CBR.
I want it to be clear that I had no part in what was being said by DadAmerican.
As a huge fan of PAD’s, I was just looking for clarification about a prior statement made by DaDAmerican.
That thread on CBR, is to me anyway, a lowpoint in the history of CBR.
I also posted another message there that said something like “A creator writes something you don’t like and your threatening him. Are you kidding me”
That’s a paraphrase of it anyway.
Having seen the thread, it didn’t look like you were part of the wacky hijinx, DS. (Proving once again…Warren Zevon fans are good people.)
There is a book called “The Gift of Fear” (Highly recommended). In it there are examples of fans going to the extremes and how famous people (a Johnny Carson incident is mentioned) handled them. One came out alright, another ended in violence.
PAD is right, a threat is to be taken seriously… always.
Anybody who has worked in security and worth their salt will tell you that you MUST foster a HEALTHY paranoia about such things.
I remember a particular sci-fi con locally in which we had to hire a guard to watch for a specific stalker who our guest was worried about. The stalker did indeed show, and was shown the door, but it was a rather frightening experience.
Crossposted both places:
Well, now I know how Raphael felt when the psychiatrist started shooting at people.
This whole thing has rather blown up in my face. I suppose I owe the people involved an explanation for why I did what I did. I know at least one person has already asked me for one privately. I’ll respond the same way I did there, but with a little more depth:
Over the course of my life, I’ve found it beneficial to take things people say at face value, unless I possess evidence to the contrary. When I entered the online world several years ago, I brought that trait with me. Maybe it wasn’t the best thing to do, but it’s by this point an instinct. I try to allow for the possibility of satire, and I consider myself an okay judge of such, but no one’s perfect.
I will say right now that I never once thought that Joe presented a serious physical threat to Peter; my biggest concern was that he might interrupt or derail a panel to bring up the issue, and conduct himself in a less than civil manner. People with more knowledge than I have since stated that he would not do such a thing, and I believe them. However, at the time I had no way of assuring myself beyond a reasonable doubt that this would be the case. Perhaps I should have made an effort to clarify Joe’s statements; I will certainly do so in the future if the need arises. At the time, though, I felt myself faced with a moral choice: take a chance and allow the possibility of actions I felt distasteful to occur, or act to prevent them in (what I thought) a small way. I made my choice, and, all things being equal, I’d make it again.
I informed the CBR forum of my actions, as I said, out of a feeling of fairness; just as I felt Peter should know that Joe might do something, I felt Joe should know that Peter knew. Regardless of my personal issues with Joe’s style, he deserved to know what was going on. Believe it or not, that particular action came out of basic courtesy.
Looking back, I definitely made a bad choice of words in using the term “ambush.” I wish there were a more clear verb for “bring up a potentially inflammatory topic at an improper time and place;” if anyone knows of one, please inform me of it. It would also probably have been a better course to inform Peter privately, through e-mail, and not drag his blog readers into the matter. For these mistakes, I do apologize.
On the subject of the story in question, here’s a bit of irony: I haven’t read it. Didn’t even know it existed until roughly 48 hours ago. I still haven’t read it, and given how it now relates to one of the more embarrassing moments of my online career, I probably never will. For those who have read it, they’re entitled to have and express opinions about it. Had I only seen the posts relating to people’s comments on the story, I would have left the thread as it was. As it is, I’m starting to wish I had anyway. There’s far too much animosity on the Internet as it is; the last thing I want to be responsible for is the creation of more.
To sum up:
1. While I took Joe’s comments seriously, I never thought he would rise above the level of annoyance.
2. I stand by the decision I made, but I also realize that my actions upon that decision were far from ideal.
3. At no time did I act out of malice or spite to anyone, nor in attempt to weasel myself into anyone’s good graces.
4. I now have a more intimate grasp of the phrase, “The road to Hëll is paved with good intentions.”
5. I feel like a schmuck at how far this has gone, and hope that the parties involved can part in a relatively peacful manner.
6. Joe has a right to his opinion about anything Peter writes.
7. Peter has a right to feel concerned if Joe talks about expressing that opinion in an untraditional manner, whether he’s kidding or not.
8. I’ll shut up now and go sit in the corner.
Err…can I ask where the inital threat(s) came from? Someone said CBR, I am assuming that is the Comic Book Resources website.
Sorry if I am lame and in the dark – just trying to catch up.
Thanks,
Brian
PAD:
I have had the good fortune to have met you on a couple of different occassions, most recently at the New York Is Book Country event (thanks for signing my BID book!). I’ve only scanned about 10% of all of these postings here and on CBR because I work and don’t have the endless amounts of time some folks seem to have. Let me sum up with this: I truly enjoy being able to look a creator, whose work I’ve enjoyed over the years, in the eye and say “thank you”. I’d hate to think some moron with a keyboard could stop future creator appearances and rob me of this. BTW, Fallen Angel: better with each issue. Thanks!
Ken
I think it is important to take ALL threats seriously…
And the sad thing to me (if this comes off right) is that PAD just writes funny books. No one dies because of them, no one is injured because of them…they are just pictures and words on paper. To take ANY comic or book so seriously that you would threaten to harm someone over them shows a disturbed personality.
And it doesn’t seem to matter how much or how little fame you have…I write a silly little news parody on a website, and four years ago I had a stalker that caused a LOT of trouble in my life. The police told me that any time anyone makes any threat, it’s better to tell them than to brush it off, because you never know which ones are serious.
About the deaf guy and the associated PAD comic: It was an issue of Supergirl (don’t remember which one – where’s KET when we need him?), and I know the guy who got into the feud with PAD, though I refused to get involved. It wasn’t much of a threat, or even much of a feud, and I still consider it rather stupid. 🙂
About threats in general: I’ve had my life threatened, in person, at a restaurant, over a parking space. I learned a few interesting things about it: First, that even when you’re not in New York, people walk by trying to pretend the whole thing doesn’t exist, and that includes managers/employees of the property. Second, that strange thoughts pass through your mind – the first thing I thought of was that I had to keep the guy talking while I called the police because if he has a gun or even a baseball bat in his car, and he goes back for it, I’m done for. Third, once the police are on their way, the person doing the threatening clams up and then disappears quickly. And fourth, and most important, that once you meet such a person, you can tell without a doubt that meeting him with violence will only raise the stakes for him and make things more dangerous for you.
The only time I reacted with violence to someone ‘threatening’ was when a former acquaintance of a relative of mine (former for good reason) came walking into my house one day without knocking. He exited the premises face-first, and the door did hit him on the way out. Then the cops arrived and laughed at him when they found out what happened. But, as PAD is fond of saying, I digress…
About message board posts: I’m one of the moderators at Alvaro’s Comicboards. One of the primary things I will not tolerate is plausible threats against another person. They’re usually banned immediately and permanently without warning. By “plausible” I mean that threatening to ‘vaporize’ Bill Gates, or send someone a cake with a fat, ugly prostitute inside is not plausible.
And last: Why can’t these perpetrators of threats at least use some imagination with their pranks? There’s nothing wrong with saying “Oh, Peter David will pay!”, and then selling him a bag of potato chips and a can of Pepsi. 🙂
Well PAD..
all I can say, is that I didn’t agree with a thing Joe wrote, and I chose not to participate in that particular thread.
All in all, CBR is a fantastic place. . it’s one of my favorite places on the Web, and I hope this doesn’t sour you to a fantastic place (Gail loves it there, so it can’t be that bad :p )
bert
(dunno if you remember me, but I’m the guy who had the blue “My Pet Monster” at DragonCon that Caroline seemed fascinated with)
Wow. 60+ responses and no one’s mentioned Harlan Ellison’s Xenogenesis essay yet. I’m shocked. 🙂
[For those not familiar with it, it’s one Harlan wrote around 18 years ago which describes the worst of his and other authors experiences with, well, I’m not sure what to call them. “Fans” might be appropriate, but for the vast majority of folk in there, that’d be worse than calling a cracker a hacker.]
What folk do often tend to miss when they read Xenogenesis is the beginning, where Harlan states that most interactions with fans are pleasant…but there’s this fringe element who range from deliberately annoying (for some very high values of that in some cases) to actively dangerous.
Peter’s got quite a few fannish friends. When I’ve seen him at cons and the like, he’s been polite and generous with his time.
But there are still some folk out there who will push the line, or go way over it. Like the person at Wondercon who, when Peter politely declined to sign a comic he’d not written or had anything to do with (and offered to sign a piece of paper, or anything unassociated with other creators), went weird.
And I’ve had the fun experience of having what seemed perfectly serious death threats made at me (Peter, Todd, and Roger should recall what I’m thinking about…). So I know very well where Peter’s coming from on this, and I’m in total agreement with what he wrote at the start of this.
It’s not a slam at fans or fandom; it’s a “Here’s where the line is drawn between acceptable and unacceptable behavior” statement. And I for one have no problem with where he drew that line.
“About the deaf guy and the associated PAD comic: It was an issue of Supergirl (don’t remember which one – where’s KET when we need him?),”
He was at work all day, and now he’s playing catch up; looks like I missed out on some of the ‘fun’! 🙂
The issue in question here is SUPERGIRL #65, and yes, I remember this particular altercation VERY WELL.
“…and I know the guy who got into the feud with PAD, though I refused to get involved. It wasn’t much of a threat, or even much of a feud, and I still consider it rather stupid.”
Not so.
The fact is that “Starving Writer” wasn’t JUST trashing the story on his review message board. He had also threatened to affect PAD’s livelihood on the author’s AOL message board.
And while “Starving Writer” may have been rash to make such stupid threats, that doesn’t mean that no one shouldn’t be taking him seriously, ESPECIALLY the target of his ire.
As Brandon also recounts the incident:
“He threatened to retaliate by sending a letter to a national deaf organization stating that a story PAD wrote for DC was a negative portrayl of deaf people. It wasn’t and this creep KNEW it wasn’t.”
“He boasted that his letter requested that the deaf organization boycott DC books due to PAD’s story. This could have potentially caused PAD to lose a writing job if the organization took this idiot seriously (which apparently they didn’t).
PAD took the creep seriously enough to assure him that he would be sued for libel if PAD did encounter any trouble with DC over the letter.”
“It was not until after his squabble on the PAD board with PAD and several board regulars (again I don’t recall the specific details) that he decided to use the issue as fodder for a “payback” threat.”
…and as ‘the rest of the story’ goes, his plan then BACKFIRED something fierce, when he attacked a review of SUPERGIRL #65 that I had posted to his review message board.
In the resulting altercation over the issue, I learned the following:
-“Starving Writer” hadn’t bought the issue. He had merely skimmed through a few pages of the book in the store, and came to false conclusions without actually READING the story.
-“Starving Writer” eventually revealed that he had also ‘reviewed’ many other comics in much the same manner.
-PAD and I were promptly banned from his board when he became thin-skinned from being exposed as a hypo-‘critic’.
-Eventually, the results of this altercation had the ripple effect of shutting down that message board, due to an extensive lack of interest.
KET
I mentioned “Xenogenesis” in the previous post. Anyway, it’s a truly great article detailing true horror stories from authors sharing their worst encounters/experiences with fans.
For the original posts, THERE WAS A THREAT MADE! The poster didn’t just say “I hate PAD’s writing” (which he has a right to) or “PAD should have his mouth washed out with soap” (which is hyperbole/exaggeration, but not exactly a threat). He talked about going to meet PAD in person at a Con and doing something to him. That’s a threat, and I’m glad PAD will be extra careful. (I also look forward to hearing from PAD about how everything worked out.)
A lesser-discussed concept here is that “fictional people have rights.” Um, no, they don’t. While some writers metafictionally have the characters rebel/react differently, authors ultimately decide what every character does. Captain Marvel isn’t always good (KINDGOM COME), Superman can kill (three Kryptonians early on), Wonder Woman can be a normal person who knows kung fu (in the ’70s), good characters can be killed mercilessly (24, CARRION COMFORT), characters can kill mercilessly or avoid killing at all costs (early Batman and current Batman), villains can become heroes (Catwoman, Venom), and so on. There’s no law or rule that a character must always be done one way; in fact, that can lead to pale copies and static characters. Also, comics let the author change powers: Gray Hulk, angelic Supergirl, psycho Captain Marvel (hey, three PAD changes!), Angel becomes Archangel, Hawkman becomes who the hëll knows what, etc. Fictional characters are the clay of the authors, to be used and shaped as they see fit. Some fans like the changes, some hate them; but copying what came before gets dull very fast. (Not unpopular, but dull.)
“…that doesn’t mean that no one shouldn’t be taking him seriously…”
Actually, this passage should have read: “..that doesn’t mean that no one SHOULD be taking him seriously…” My bad.
Yeesh…looks like I gotta get some sleep… 🙂
KET
“…and I know the guy who got into the feud with PAD, though I refused to get involved. It wasn’t much of a threat,
Oh I beg to differ.
A guy sends a letter (or email) with libelous comments (i.e. LIES) about a writer to a big organization that could potentially cause a lot of problems for that writer and the company he works for. Possibly costing him a job thus effecting his livelihood and reputation (not to mention wasting valuable time of an important organization for the handicapped all because he was ticked off about a comic message board). Something I would take pretty dámņ seriously if it were me.
and I still consider it rather stupid. 🙂
Well it certainly was stupid on the part of SW and he should thank his lucky stars that this organization didn’t take his libel seriously (assuming he actually sent the letter as he claimed) because if PAD had been fired over the letter, he would have had a rock solid case of malicious libel.
My point was (and is) that threats come in many forms and just because they don’t involve person to person “meetings” doesn’t make them any less serious.
Call me stupid but, I always thought it was against the law to threaten someone’s life?? All this insane stuff over a comic book story?? You’ve got to be kidding me? And, you certainly don’t go to conventions threating famous people over a comic book????? People really need to get a life, seriously. And, they used to call us Trekkies crazy.
stay safe PAD & ignore the creeps and have body guards if you have too!
Well it certainly was stupid on the part of SW and he should thank his lucky stars that this organization didn’t take his libel seriously
I found it stupid because I knew nothing would come of it. I honestly doubted there would be any such boycott.
TO MICHAEL PULLMAN:
You did the right thing. Had this been a real threat and you had done nothing, it would have weighed on your conscience for the rest of your life. By bringing this to Peter’s attention, you may have stopped something. The guy in question says he was kidding. This may be true. All the other posters who contributed to and egged on the situation may have been “just kidding”, but you can never know what *might* happen when a bunch of people get together. It may only take one or two loud voices to turn a crowd into a mob.
Don’t be ashamed or embarrassed for what you did. You did what a man is supposed to do.
Alan Coil