Okay. Fine. I accept the apology of the fan in question, and am even willing to concede the idea that he was “only kidding.” But I want him, and all those who echoed his “only kidding” defense, to consider the following: You don’t know who reads what you post. You can’t know. And if there was one person who took your comments seriously enough to report them to me because he was concerned…it’s equally possible that there was someone else who read it and said to themselves, “Great idea. Let’s get that SOB once and for all.” The defense of “Just kidding!” doesn’t go all that far if something happens, does it.
However, in the spirit of acceptance…I’m going to address major complaint I recall reading in the thread, right here, right now, regarding the Supergirl Plus issue (which, despite its title, was not a comic aimed at hefty girls.) See attached:
1) “Why do the story at all?” Because at the time, there was several incidents reported in the newspapers in which women were claiming they had been groped by police, while the police were claiming innocence. I thought it would be interesting to do such a story with a superheroine protagonist, one whose word would seem beyond reproach. Equally, the cop himself also had to appear a paragon of virtue, else the story was too one-sided.
2) “But why sully Mary Marvel? Why do something so ‘real world’ with someone so Silver Age-y?” It is the job of the fans to try and keep their favorite heroes trapped in amber, unchanging, so they can be just as they were forever…ironically so they can eventually lose interest. It’s the job of the writers to try new directions, new environments, new approaches, so as to keep the characters fresh and of-the-time. In this instance, I thought it would also provide an interesting contrast to have the pure (for lack of a better word) Mary Marvel running into subject matter that was totally outside her experience. Think of it, if nothing else, as a dry run for “Many Happy Returns” in which the naive Kara coped with the modern day DC universe while the hardened Linda Danvers experienced the innocence of the Silver Age. Drama stems from conflict, and contrasting worldviews makes for good drama.
3) “But geez, a rape story about Mary Marvel?” No. The cop didn’t rape her. Didn’t come close. I’d never write such a story. (I’ve never written a story where an iconic superheroine was raped, and wouldn’t want to. Interestingly, it was strongly indicated that the Hulk was raped in “Future Imperfect,” but that caused no outcry whatsoever.
4) “Why did Mary take the bus to Leesburg instead of fly?” Because at the time, there was limited amounts of power available to the Marvel family, and she didn’t want to use her power arbitrarily for a sustained period of time if she didn’t have to, as it might inconvenience the other Marvels.
5) “When the cop groped her, why didn’t she transform?” She did, the moment she was clear of him.
6) “Since she has the Wisdom of Solomon, why didn’t she handle the situation in a more level-headed manner.” Okay, pop quiz: God tells you directly, twice, to build no temples to other gods. Do you (A) build no temples to other gods, or (B) build hundreds of temples to other gods, thus bringing down the wrath of God upon not only your head, but your offspring. If you picked (B), congratulations…you have displayed, according to the book of Kings, the wisdom of Solomon. As my kids would say, Smooth move, Ex-Lax. The point is, even Solomon had his off days, and just because you *have* wisdom doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re incapable of being seized with such moral outrage that you don’t use it. People make mistakes. Cardboard characters don’t. I prefer to write about the former.
7) “Why did the story end in an ambiguous manner?” Because the story was about ambiguity and points of view. People are used to bášŧárdìzáŧìøņš of “Rashomon.” The whole point of that film was that truth is indefiniable and subjective. In later years when others have used that He said/She said format, one of the points of view is clearly the “correct” one to make it easy for the audience. I choose not to make it easy because such a delicate and difficult subject deserves something other than easy, facile answers. However, at the end of the story, we see the cop breaking down and sobbing in his car after claiming he did nothing wrong, and Mary’s parents stating that they’re going to be pursuing legal action. The strong implication was that the cop had indeed done as Mary said, and that the matter would be pursued and resolved through legal channels. However, leaving it to interpretation was, to my mind, the only appropriate way to end the story. I was aware that some might find that unsatisfying, to which I can only say that I end 99% of my stories in a clear and unambiguous manner. I think readers should be able to deal with the occasional one percent that reflects the simple truth that, really, nothing ever ends.
PAD
• 
I’ve been working online for about ten years now for and these are among the things I tell our volunteer and professional hosts when dealing with threats:
* Take every threat seriously.
* Print out copies of the threats and keep them on file. Keep copies with your will and make sure that someone close to you gets copies of them.
* If you feel that your life is in danger go directly to the police and make them aware of it. File a report and give them copies of the threats.
* Report the threat to the ISP of the person who threatened you. ISPs take threats very seriously especially when the police are involved. While most protect the identities of their users, that police involvement does wonders to finding out who people are.
* If you’re a kid and you’re threatened, TELL YOUR PARENTS. Don’t let people intimidate you by insulting you for being a “Tattletale.” If you feel threatened, your parents are the people to go to in order to get help.
* If you see someone threatening another person and trying to “keep it secret” (as in this case), by all means tell the target of the threats or go to the authorities. This is a no brainer, again, ignore idimidation to supress. You really don’t want to live with the consequences if they’re not “fooling around.”
* Never trust the assertations of “friends” of the threatener since they just want to get their friend off the hook.
Peter’s exactly right to say that the “I know the guy and he’d never do this” defense doesn’t work. To be honest, you don’t know the guy. You don’t know what’s going through his or her head.
Remember, almost every crime article in the newspaper has a quote from a friend or a relative saying “Oh, he was such a nice boy, he’d never do something like this …”
I don’t advocate living your life in fear, but in this day and age, you’d be foolish not to leave a papertrail or take action when you feel threatened. If you’re wrong about someone, you’re wrong, but if you’re right — and they do attempt something — leaving that papertrail can mean the difference between life and death.
k9
I guess we’ve finally resolved to never say or write anything that could be misenterpreteded by the mentally deranged, because, you, its really easy to predict how they’ll inyerpret something.
Well, *you* may have resolved that. It doesn’t seem to represent the opinion of anyone else, though, including me.
I suppose absolute silence is a small price to pay for whatever miniscule measure of security it’ll buy you, no?
I’d hardly call about 150 postings on the subject “silence.” Certainly taking absolute responsibility for the things one says, however, is a minuscule (note correct spelling, FYI) price to pay for having the right to free speech, no?
Which I think Joe now comprehends.
But you clearly don’t.
Anyone care to vouch for *this* guy…?
PAD
I seen my share of nuts in chats, forums, BBS and news groups. Especially ones involving famous people. Posters go overboard on certain subects to troll or whatever, but, sometimes it gets out of hand. People will say anything you want to hear online. But, threats are another matter. I’ve had them and I’m a nobody. But in the case of famous people, they shouldn’t be taken lightly.
my 2 cents worth.
PAD, according to the AOL Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Main Entry: min
There’s an obstacle in the way of anyone who means an apology sincerely: all the people who don’t.
This really isn’t fair to the person who genuinely does understand something they didn’t earlier, and regrets their earlier behavior, and intends to do differently. The problem is that from the outside, the rest of us can’t tell the difference, because the words are the same whether or not they’re meant with any sincerity. And most of us with good will have had our share of experiences where we accept an apparently sincere apology only to find that good will later abused by someone who really didn’t have any desire to change at all.
So anyone who wishes to really apologize pretty well has to treat the apology itself as a statement of intent and the beginning of a probation period. The apology really doesn’t count for that much, because of the problem of discerning intent; what will count is the ensuing posts and exchanges.
Jesus, all this fuss… i’ve not been on here for the past few days and i just cannot believe the madness i’m reading here…
First off, and i WILL get flak for this, i would have loved to see a story like that guy was talking about. I would love to see the conflict that a character such as mary marvel would go through after going through something as devistating as rape… to see how a “goodie two-shoes” golden age character deals with such raw subject matter…
TWO… it’s a story… a freaking story…
THREE… no one complained when Captain Marvel dry anal raped Una Rogg… oh, wait, that didn’t happen, did it? Jeez… I guess i’m just pìššëd at peter’s treatment of mary marvel… X-D
The story they are talking about is like ten years old now or something??? I read that entire lame thread from that forum. Ya know maybe people need to read Peter’s novels yo get a better idea of how Peter David writers. Get your heads out of ten year old comics and pick up a real Peter David novel. Then you will see how great of a writer he really is.
wish this thing had an edit feature 😛
Peter, maybe it’s just me, but I got the sense that Jamie was being ironic with that last post. (I could be wrong, though.)
Peter, maybe it’s just me, but I got the sense that Jamie was being ironic with that last post. (I could be wrong, though.)
I think it qualifies more as sarcasm, actually.
PAD
Originally, I had planned to say my piece and leave it there. I went away for the weekend to my girlfriend’s uptown, and when I got back I heard the actual issue was being discussed and my apology was accepted.
That’s cool.
So, let me see what I can get out of this.
My main issue is and always was that the Marvel family was an inappropriate choice to use in this story. While this may frame me with the “comic characters should never change” camp, I think that’s a broad generalization. I don’t mind change . . .as long as it works. For instance: Xavier’s becoming an actual school . . .that’s a change that works. Clark Kent becoming a boring uber-yuppie with an exciting social life? To me, at least, that doesn’t work so well.
I guess it just comes down to personal taste. This story didn’t work for me. I don’t claim that Mary Marvel almost getting molested could NEVER work. But in a one-off piece never to be referenced, written by a writer not necessarily at the top of his game, it doesn’t work.
So, yeah. Change is fine. But it has to work . . .and the amount it has to work is directly proportional to the amount of change it is. For Superman to become a morally suspect vigilante, I suppose it could work. But it would have to be one hëll of a story. For molestation and the like to enter the life of Mary Marvel, that could, in fact, work. But it would really have to be a hëll of a story. “A STORY THAT MUST BE TOLD!”
A lot of this is borne out of my frustration at the mainstream comics scene in America and its lack of attention to young readers. It’s unfair to take it out on Supergirl, but it just seems a title so perfect for kids, especially young girls. But I don’t know many young girls that want to read stories about molestation, even if they do have political and artistic merit.
I’m on some allergy meds, so forgive me if/when I ramble. Like most disagreements over the net, at the heart of this is a difference in opinion. Some people find my humor funny, some don’t. Some people find this story well-done and appropriate, others don’t.
Joe: So a TV Show like “Buffy” should only deal with topics “children can deal with”? Because it is a “perfect show for little girls”, with all those characters, high school, etc ?
For me, Supergirl was a very adult comic book. Not in the gore and sex sense (like those other “adult” books), but in a sense where the stories were smart, thought-through, provoking and dealt with themes and topics you rarely find in other comic books these days.
You say “written by a writer not necessarily at the top of his game”. Well, that’s your opinion. (Did you actually read “Supergirl”? I mean not pick up one issue, to throw it away later. I mean, did you really read it?) Of course, you won’t believe me, because I’m just another fan who “kisses PAD’s ášš”, but when you think about it, the writers who are “at the top of their game” mostly are because of a current trend or with support by WIZARD and such things. It all comes down to marketing.
Just because Peter David was a “hot” writer in 1992 – 1994 doesn’t mean his writings got worse since then. I really do believe that his writing today is far better then some of his works in those “golden” days.
I’d rather read great stories, which don’t get the attention they deserve, then read the much-hyped new book of the current “hot” creative team.
But maybe that’s just me.
Pascal
Wait just a second. When I said it wasn’t written at PAD’s best, I meant just that particular issue. I was quite a fan of PAD’s work for a long time, especially on Hulk and X-Factor. Supergirl just didn’t jibe too well for me, and I dropped it after a year or two. What I meant was that issue wasn’t PAD’s best, though I can see how my statement could have been misconstrued.
About the “perfect for little girls,” I admit it’s not fair for me to punish PAD’s Supergirl because of what I think it could have been. I give out comics to my students as rewards for behavior. They’re second graders and it goes over really well. But the mainstream producers aren’t doing much that interests my girls. Sure, they’ll like some Justice League adventures or DC’s wonderful cartoon line, but the selection is slim.
In a perfect world, at least to me, Supergirl would be a title equally accessible to 7 year old girls and adults of either gender. As it was, it seemed written for that ever-shrinking male adult audience, and that just kind of creeped me out, no offense to its fans or creators. It’s wishful thinking and from my perspective.
In a perfect world, at least to me, Supergirl would be a title equally accessible to 7 year old girls and adults of either gender. As it was, it seemed written for that ever-shrinking male adult audience, and that just kind of creeped me out, no offense to its fans or creators.
Rather ironic, then, considering (if I remember correctly) PAD has stated in interviews that part of his impetus for writing Supergirl was to try and create a comic that was smart and sophisticated enough for teenage girls to get into — namely, girls like his own daughters.
Unless Peter’s girls have had gender-changing operations (and last I heard they haven’t), I think the claim that he was pandering to a male adolescent audience seems completely unfounded.
Hm. Perhaps it was written for that age group (and I was thinking younger), but the art . . .generally it was on one level of cheesecake or the other, culminating in that Ed Benes stuff, which I really can’t stand. I didn’t even like “HEY, LOOK! BØØBS!” art when I was going through puberty, why would I now? And the women I’ve shown it to, both inside and outside of fandom just kind of gawk or give an “Ew.”
So the fault may not be totally (or that much) with Peter, but I contend that the series was NOT that appealing to young girls.
Ed Benes was the artist for six issues. Leonard Kirk, who pencilled “Supergirl” for issues 10 – 74 had a different style. In his pencilles the gestures and faces showed all kind of emotions that suited the stories Peter wrote perfectly.
Pascal
OK, way off topic here, but…
“Claudia Christian was shot by a sicko in a tribble costume”?!?
Is this a joke? Was Claudia Christian actually shot? Is she OK?
If I’m being naive, please forgive me–but after some of the stuff I’ve read on this topic, it doesn’t seem like you can take anything at face value…
Janice: “There’s a lot of offensive topics about which one can joke without others taking offense. The key is that your comedy has to be funny. If such a large number of people didn’t get that the threatening statement was a joke, then there was nothing funny about it.”
So humour is a matter of consensus now? I don’t think I got that memo.
I’m certainly glad to know that whoever offended you apologized if they did. It’s bad enough that there’s a whole bunch of virtually remorseless lunkheads out there already with no shame in abusing other people’s software, not to mention a whole bunch of PC advocates out there who’re already doing more than enough pretend acts as it is. And speaking of pretenders, well, that’s a subject I hope to address on another occasion.