For those out there naive enough to think the anti-Semitic sentiments expressed at that Muslim get together the other day were somehow isolated, check out the following article.
There you can read about an exciting new series that I’m sure will be available on DVD just about any time.
When I wondered how Israel can negotiate with people who want them dead, I was asked if I was implying that all Palestinians want them dead. No. I don’t think all of anybody wants anything. But there will always be those who want them dead, and I suspect they will always be working to torpedo anyone who tries to have it otherwise.
I have a relative living in Israel who flatly thinks the country won’t survive. That history will remember a brief time that the Jews had a homeland, and that’s all. Interestingly, he has no intention of leaving the country, so maybe deep down he doesn’t believe it. But let’s face it: Things aren’t going so hot right now. Not in this country, not abroad. And when things aren’t going well, historically what’s the first, best response of humanity? Blame the Jews.
Hey, look over there! A whole bunch of Jews in one country LET’S GET ‘EM!
PAD
• 
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
I’m going to assume you mean the non-Jewish tribes. Believe it our not they’re probably the ancestors of the Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. One of the misconceptions of about the great Arab expansion is the belief that Arabs displaced native populations in the Middle East and North Africa. In fact the Arabs simply conquered and imposed a new culture on the on these people. Much in the same way Turks from central Asia conquered the Anatolian populations and now we call them all Turks.
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
I’m going to assume you mean the non-Jewish tribes. Believe it our not they’re probably the ancestors of the Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. One of the misconceptions of about the great Arab expansion is the belief that Arabs displaced native populations in the Middle East and North Africa. In fact the Arabs simply conquered and imposed a new culture on the on these people. Much in the same way Turks from central Asia conquered the Anatolian populations and now we call them all Turks.
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
I’m going to assume you mean the non-Jewish tribes. Believe it our not they’re probably the ancestors of the Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. One of the misconceptions of about the great Arab expansion is the belief that Arabs displaced native populations in the Middle East and North Africa. In fact the Arabs simply conquered and imposed a new culture on the on these people. Much in the same way Turks from central Asia conquered the Anatolian populations and now we call them all Turks.
To end all this?
Will the real god please stand up.
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
Ðámņ, I totally misunderstood the question. I though it was about the tribes that left Egypt.
I think they mostly stayed where they were, and lived under the empire, like you do (or did, back then). Far as I know, you were pretty much OK and free to worship whatever statue you wished as long as you payed tribute to the king and all that.
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
Interesting. Well, El, or Shaddai, or YHWH (I don’t think it was YHWH… I’m fairly certain it was Shaddai… but not absolutely.) told the Hebrews to wipe them off the face of the earth. Now the Hebrews did not do this completely. They were fooled by certain tribes/city states into thinking they weren’t the enemy. And that’s where we have the Samaritans… as in the good Samaritans. Not totally. Actually, most of the tribes had rebelled against YHWH (and yes, at that time it was YHWH) and all were left was Judah and, I think, Benjamin. Not sure on that one, either. This is now the nation of Israel. Not the massive land mass it was in the good ole days.
All the lands that were the states/tribes of israel except for Judah and Benjamin were considered Samaria. Which they were mixed race.
I need to go back and read my old testament. This is what I remember from the last time I read it… oh 12 years or so.
Travis
I do want to put in a few words here.
1. My last name’s Cohen. And I haven’t been to synagogue in over 15 years, by my own choice.
2. When I lived in Florida, one of the roommates I had was from Morocco. And he had some personal stake in all of this, but hatred never entered into the picture. Frustration and fear, but never violence or anger.
3. I find that when religion is taken to an absolute, rigid stance, that is when problems crop in. Flexibility and compromise are the keys to making something, almost anything, work.
By the way, my brother “got religion” maybe a year or two ago. I don’t know if he’s happier with the way he currently lives and I do not judge him for his beliefs. But some of his actions in the name of religion have truly offended me, and I am sure he and his wife think less of me because I do not feel as they do. And that’s sad.
Spoiler: Next time you’re approached by a Jehovah’s Witness, you can just tell them you’re one of God’s Chosen People. They may choose to offer you some literature. Then they leave.
No one has the right to tell someone what to believe.
\\And rightly so! Chomski, of course, is about as Jewish as you can get; I made a funny.
In a nutshell, his (frighteningly well backed) premise is that the entire situation throughout the ME is easily traceable to multinational oil interests (meaning, frankly, US foreign policies); and that unless there’s a major policy shift in the US regarding the way oil companies treat the area, there’s no way whatsoever any solution will be achieved – no matter which regime has power in israel or Palestine.\\
As Alan Dershowitz puts it, Chomsky is the quintessential self-hating Jew. His premise is just more wearmed over “Blame America First” crap. Who really cares what a supporter of the Khymer Rouge has to say?
[B]I think you underestimate the spread of evangelist thought in this country. [/B]
Actually, I don’t. I’m a student at Pat Robertson’s Regent University. I know full well the power they have and what they want in the future.
However, most Pre-Millennaliasts(those who believe in the Rapture and End Times) believe the Ed will come regardless of how man acts and Christians will neither bring it on or stop it.
Post-Millenialists (who believe the book of Revelations is primarly a story regarding the Jews persecution by Nero and their eventual redemption by God) do not believe there will be a Rapture or Tribulation–only the Second Coming. There is a good mix of Christians who vbelieve and are not apocalyptic.
Hsving experienced political circles, I can assure you very little Christianity is sctually practiced by the majority.
oh, and left Behind isn’t revetting, but it is amusing reading on idle days. 😉
Sorry, guys n’ gals. That’s as good as the typing gets.
I find the general ignorance on the topic of Israel to be criminal. This recent article from US News may enlighten a few of you.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/031103/usnews/3anti.htm
My name is Gunter, and I am PAD’s father. My credentials for participating in this debate are as follows: I was born in Berlin, Germany. When Hitler came to power in 1933, my parents and I fled to Paris, France. I was three years old. Two years later we migrated to what was then Palestine. I grew up in Tel Aviv. Since coming to America at age 18, I have been back to the area as a newsman and/or visitor at least a dozen times. I covered the Yom Kippur War of 1973.
1. When Palestine was partitioned by the United nations on November 30, 1947, it was along population lines. One exception was the port city of Chaifa (Haifa), where Jews and Arabs lived together, but the Jews were the majority. Another exception was the Negev desert, populated mostly by Beduins, nomads, and by Jews living in the historical town of Beer Sheva. Jerusalem was to be under international control, with freedom of access to the holy places of all three major religions.
2. The Jews lived primarily on land bought from Arab owners through the Jewish National Fund. Money for this purpose was raised by collecting nickels and dimes and their equivalents in Jewish communities around the world, in little white and blue tin boxes. Jews also settled on public lands obtained when Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. This was done with the permission of the government. When Jews began coming to Palestine in the end of the 19th century, they drained swamps of these lands and built communal settlements known as kibbutzim, collective farms.
Today the JNF concentrates on building forests. Peter may recall the time the family went to the town of Modiin in Israel when he was 13 years old. There, he and his younger brother, Wally, planted saplings funded by a donation from his parents.
3. When Israel was declared a state in May, 1948, it was invaded by the armies of five Arab countries. When the cease fire was declared a year later, Israel’s territory was much larger then had been allocated by the UN Partition.
4. There has never been a country called Palestine. The name is derived from the Hebrew word Plishtim, after the Philistines, people of Greek extraction who populated what later became known as the Gaza Strip. The land, first known as Canaan, eventually became the province of Palestine under the Ottoman empire.
5. After the 1949 cease-fire between Israel and the Arabs was declared, Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip. Emir Abdullah, the British instated ruler of Trans-Jordan, whose territory was on the eastern banks of the Jordan River, annexed what later became known as the West Bank, including the Old City of Jerusalem, which included the Western (Wailing) Wall. Thus the Jews were denied access to their holiest place. Abdullah pronounced himself king of a new country, Jordan. Egypt and Jordan had nearly twenty years to help the Palestinian Arabs create their own state. They did not. Today, Palestinian Arabs comprise seventy -five percent of Jordan’s population. The current queen is of Palestinian extraction.
6. During the years the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian rule, thousands of Palestinians lived in refugee camps funded by the United Nations. No effort was made to help them live normal lives. No effort was made to build an industry and solid economy. While visiting one such camp in 1968 as an American newspaperman, I chatted with several unemployed Arab men. They were playing cards, smoking their narghillas and pledging to destroy Israel. We communicated through a translator and the men knew nothing of my background. This unemployed, dislocated population would give rise to a future generation of suicide bombers.
7. In 1967 Israel once more was attacked by its Arab neighbors. When the Six-Day War ended, Israel was in control of all of Palestine, as well as the Sinai Desert and portions of Syria. Jordan, in fact, became Trans-Jordan geographically, but never changed its name.
8. Yassir Arafat and the PLO set up headquarters in northern Jordan following the Six-Day War. Subsequently, King Hussein, who inherited his grandfather’s throne, attacked Arafat and his people in the dead of night. Arafat escaped to Beirut, Lebanon, from which he fled once more in 1982 from Israeli troops led by Ariel Sharon. He eventually settled in Tunis.
9.Yizchak Rabin, Israel’s prime minister, and Shimon Peres, his close adviser, brought Arafat back from Tunis in the early 1990s. They had proposed to create an autonomous area called Palestine that would have no military. Its government would engage only in civil matters. The area bordering on the river Jordan was to be under Israeli control. Arafat agreed. In 1993, the three men shared the Nobel Peace Prize. Since then, Rabin has been assassinated by an Israeli extremist. Peres, who briefly succeeded him as prime minister, lost the subsequent election. Arafat lives in the ruins of Ramallah. And the Palestinians still have no state.
10. Calling Arabs anti-Semites is inaccurate, since the Arabs themselves are Semites.
11. The conflict between Arabs and Israelis is primarily over territory.
12. The Arabs came out of the Arab peninsula more then a thousand years ago. They are not the indigenous people of Palestine, just as the Jews were not the indigenous people of the land of Canaan. Like the Arabs, the Israelites came out of a desert more then a thousand years earlier, and defeated the Canaanites, Edomites, Moabites and others living in what these nomads considered their promised land.
13. Today, only Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, proving, however, that peace between Arab and Jew is possible, provided the leadership is willing.
I spent some time looking at a map of the proposed partition of the Palestine Mandate a while back. If you make the assumption that the interesting places are connected by the roads and see who controlled the roads, you’ll find that the partition was pretty even, save for Israel getting all of the Negev desert — which wasn’t exactly the most attractive real estate in the region.
Of course, as Mr. David observes above, that wasn’t satisfactory to the surrounding Arab countries…
First off, to Gunther David . . . wow. You certainly know what you are talking about. It gives a perspective that will be greatly appreciated.
And secondly, for those curious about the connection between the state of Israel, evangelical Christians, and Armaggedon, Salon.com has a pretty good article on it (http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/05/24/dispensational/index.html). It’s a Premium article, but a free Day Pass will let you read it in its entirety.
– Sasha
The only solution is a Palestinian civil war.
http://www.honestreporting.com
‘eliyahu ben ‘avraham vaSarah’:
I find the general ignorance on the topic of Israel to be criminal. This recent article from US News may enlighten a few of you.
That was a VERY good article, full of very relevant facts, I recommend you all read it. I might disagree with some of his opinions and conclusions, but one that is dead right is: the double-standard where Israel is concerned. That was the part I could never get. Right or wrong aside, I can’t remember any other country (country!!!) ever getting this treatment from the ‘international community’ (heh) when reacting to terrorist attacks.
Also, that Amos OZ quote on the last page. I know who Oz is quite well, and generally dislike him and his work, but THAT is one good insight.
Gunther David (GAD?):
It’s nice to see someone thinking they need credentials to participate in an online debate (Sort of reminds us all how the real world behaves, and threw me on a short meditative tangent that has nothing to do with this discussion). Yours are impressive. Mine are less so: being Israeli (Haifa) and with a decent level of general knowledge. I have to say I have a mental picture of you and have fallen desperately in love with it. I imagine spending an afternoon with you would be delightful.
4) Thank you for this; it’s an often overlooked fact, imperative to any such debate. Addition: the first ever country to officially recognize Palestinians as a People was… Israel (during the Rabin/Arafat/Clinton talks).
9) The Palestinian entity was to have an armed police force, though; Rabin and Peres insisted that force be armed and trained by the state of Israel, as indeed it was. This drew major criticism from the middle-to-extreme rightwing section. I still remember some of the headlines, with people like Sharon and Geula Cohen screaming in bold italics: “They are giving them RIFLES!!!”, and the Likud bumper stickres: “Don’t give them rifles!!”
Another point: the Palestinian entity was funded on a regular basis by the US and Israel, according to whatever agreements the leaders made; this money was to be used to create infrastructure, housing, jobs, schools, etc.; instead, most of it (not even allegedly) went to personal Swiss bank accounts belonging to Arafat and his Junta.
13) That, I think, is the nail. What we really need is for the old generation of ‘leaders’ to go away. Their history prevents sound judgement and a change of perspective.
On the Palestinian side, Arafat doesn’t have credibility with his people anymore. Their lives have been even more miserable since he took control. He will likely be assassinated the second he signs a real peace-agreement. His historic role is finished, and any agreements will have to be made with the REAL, truly elected (rather than appointed) leadership in Palestine, people who (for better or worse) speak for a majority of the people. And any such body will include the Jihad and Hamas. For better or worse.
On the Israeli side, there is no way any Palestinian leaders will ever trust Sharon, and there is no way the majority of the Israeli public will trust Peres; we need a younger generation to take control, people who haven’t spent their lives blinded by ideals, people who can look at the situation pragmatically. Needless to say, this will have to be an overwhelming majority government, probably a Labour/Likud coalition. I don’t know that any such people exist in realistic positions within the current political structure.
No one has the right to tell someone what to believe.
Hey, very clever. In telling us no one can tell us what to believe, you are, in fact, telling us what to believe. Seems like a self-refuting statement to me. For those into philosophy out there this refers to the law of non-contradiction.
As one who has previously complained of “experts” without credentials, i must thank Mr. David for establishing his. You caught our attention with an authoritative hook, and kept us there. That was the most worthwhile and informative post I’ve seen posted here. Thank you.
Eric, he did not tell you that no one can tell you what to believe, merely that no one has the right to do so.
As for the rest of this thread…I find myself coming round to the idea that I had over a year ago now, when Israel lobbed a missile into an apartment building and killed Salah Shehade, leader of Izzedine al Qassam, military wing of the militant Islamic group Hamas. Among those killed were Shehade’s wife and three of his children and several other children. Do I mourn for Shehade? No, I do not. But his wife, and his children, and the neighbor children who were also killed…should I not mourn for them?
Shehade was a murderer. He killed hundreds. His hands were entirely stained with blood. I have a hard time imagining that his daughters were as well.
As long as each side is willing to kill a dozen innocents or more to get one person, or even to kill them with no other target than those innocents themselves (and this is what groups like Hamas do…they kill people for the horrible crime of being Israeli, or even just being in Israel, since you can’t very well strap a bomb to a teenager’s chest and send him into a bus to explode and know you’ll only be killing Israelis, not that that would be any better) then this will never end. Each act will ramp up the hatred and determination on the other side. Israel will forever be forced to face the fact that her military power cannot crush an enemy that refuses to stand and fight (a lesson other nations may well learn in time) and groups like Hamas will forever be forced to resort to attacks that do no real damage to the Israeli infrastructure and merely increase the willingness to use those fighter jets, tanks and bombs.
I don’t hate Israel, or Israelis. I don’t hate Palestinians. But at times, I sincerely hate that I know anything about the Middle East at all. I’d honestly like to physically remove Israel from the region and put it on an island in the Pacific Ocean. Maybe that would be far enough, but somehow, I doubt it.
I don’t know the answer. I don’t know why we need TV shows parroting the hateful lies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I don’t know why anyone would believe that millions of people are engaged in a worldwide conspiracy of global domination so incredibly inept that they faced genocide and pogroms repeatedly throughout their history. I don’t know why people feel the need to go back six thousand years to try and figure out who should be in Israel now. (Hëll, didn’t Abraham come from Ur of the Chaldees, the fabled city linked to the Uruk of Gilgamesh? Maybe the whole Fertile Crescent should be Israel’s! If we’re going back that far, that is.) I don’t understand any of this, on either side. I don’t know why we can’t just say ‘What our ancestors did, we don’t have to do…what we did in the past, we can avoid doing now’ and move forward. I don’t know.
As long as it is acceptable to hate someone based on what religion they might have or what group they might come from, or to kill groups of people to make a point, this will never end.
“People aren’t reading the Left Behind series in record numbers (check Amazon for that) just because they think it’s a ripping good yarn.”
Actually, it has been proven that certain religious groups inflate sales of their books.
The Scientologists did it, why wouldn’t the Christian Right?
I think the Left Behind series sales is inflated in much the way the sales of Dianetics was inflated.
And who knows, maybe Left Behind is a really good yarn for those inclined to believe such things are possible.
That doesn’t mean they believe such things WILL happen.
It’s like saying because I read Spider-Man I think radioactive spiders can give people ‘spider powers’.
Might be repeating something someone else has said, but I’ve just discovered this dodge and wanted to tip folks off to it. Seems some Neo-Nazi types use the “Total Looney-Tune” image as camoflague. Ernest Zundel, for instance, published tons of info on Nazi flying saucers and the like that even he knew was bogus.
His purpose? This stuff got people’s attention and got into bookstores since it was so obviously ‘harmless.’ Not only could he then funnel that money back into Holocaust Denial and such, but he was also able to introduce some of his nonsense to readers not perceptive enough to pick up on what he was up to.
So, Mister David, a request: If you ever do a story about Nazi UFOs, please put in a LOT of info about the Holocaust.
Oh, and the Evangelical Christian thing; If I understand correctly, in the End Times, all the Jews are supposed to spontaneously convert to Christianity. This is besides the rebuilding of The Temple of Israel (or something like that) being a sign of the coming bad stuff.
My solution to this is for every Jew to buddy up with a Christian. If they ever feel an overpowering urge to convert to Christianity, the Jews can call the Christians, who will simultaneously convert to Judaism. Then if the newly converted Jews feel compelled to convert back, the newly converted Christians can go back to Judaism. And they can trade off like that. Delay Armageddon forever. Drive God nuts.
Chomsky, a supporter of the Khmer Rouge? Try looking up what he really said.
In the book “What Uncle Sam Really Wants,” Noam criticizes past US support for the Khmer Rouge (this is from an interview with Noam, the book is copyrighted 1986-1990):
“In order to bleed Vietnam, we’ve supported the Khmer Rouge indirectly through our allies, China and Thailand. The Cambodians have to pay with their blood so we can make sure there isn’t any recovery in Vietnam. The Vietnamese have to be punished for having resisted US violence.”
As you say, “Who really cares what a supporter of the Khymer (where did you get the “y”?) Rouge has to say?” And the US support amounted to boatloads of money and arms.
It is likely you read the stupid urban-legend-esque story that Noam supports the Khmer Rouge because he points out that the US exaggerated the number killed. I can certainly forgive you that. Lazy reporter after lazy reporter has repeated that lie almost to the extent of the exploding poodle in the microwave. But here is Noam again (Necessary Illusions Copyright
Hey, no annoying underlining! Yay! It only showed up when I previewed.
My previous post is a response to Jim Burdo’s silly little post earlier. I should have made that more obvious in the origianl post.
Isarel should have never been allowed to become a country. someone decided that it would be ok for a group of Jews to take over a piese of land that they had no right to.
Isarel should have never been allowed to become a country. someone decided that it would be ok for a group of Jews to take over a piese of land that they had no right to.
Dude, you can’t really believe that. As Mr. David pointed out Jews freely purchased a lot of territory with the express purpose of forming a nation. The UN partition was a flawed but at least good faith attempt to create both a homeland for the Jews and an Arab nation. Sadly the Arabs rejected the idea of partition, the Israelis accepted the idea of partition but not the suggested borders, so we get a war death and misery in the mid-east for 50 years.
Re:Evan Hanson’s comment. The Jews DID accept the borders as drawn by the UN partition. As I pointed out, they even agreed to the internationalization of Jerusalem. If the Arab countries had accepted the partition, Palestine would have become a state at the same time as Israel.
And who knows, maybe Left Behind is a really good yarn for those inclined to believe such things are possible.
I haven’t read the Left Behind books myself, but the general consensus I’ve gotten from folks who’ve read it — including fundamentalist Christians — is that it’s barely-passable disaster fiction with a bunch of half-baked end-of-the-world prophecy mixed in. The later books get even more criticism for drawing out the already-overlong plot even further and bludgeoning readers over the head with the schemes of the Antichrist. It’s certainly not high literature by any means.
Mr. David is correct. I was in error in my earlier post. Too many facts running around in a brain two sizes too small.
Just realized:
Does this mean that PAD is the Son of G-D?
I think that can only happen when the common folks on both sides — not the politicians and the leaders — are willing to sit together, put aside the things that both sides have done in the past, and truly work towards a solution that’s fair to everyone.
The ‘common folk’? Who are they? What makes them common? And won’t that make them the leaders? Whomever is sitting at the table, regardless of who they were are now the new leaders. Regardless of how ‘common’ they were they once before they wouldn’t be common anymore.
**”If you repeat a statement enough times, no matter how absurd that statement is, people will come to believe it is true.”
By interesting coincidence, Michael Moore uses that very quote in regards to the Bush administration in his new book, “Dude, Where’s My Country.”**
I just find that ironic considering it was Micheal Moore who was using the phrase. Not to get too far off-track, but a digression is a digression.
This ignores one hugely important fact. Muslims have no “religious” need to have that land. Before Jews started returning to Palestine in the late nineteenth century the Arab world couldn;t have cared less about it. It was a forgotten backwater of Syria. They don’t want the land so much as they don’t want the Jews to have it.
From what I understand the Jews have no religious reason to be the sole inhabitants of Israel, which is probably why Arabs have the same voting rights as any other Israeli as long as they are citizens. Israel is the only place in the Middle East where Arabs have a fair vote. You don’t need to be a Jew to be an Israeli.
Also from what I understand there’s still a Islamic belief which goes something like ‘death to the infidels’ or some such. While not every Palestinian holds such a belief, clearly some dangerous Muslims do… it wasn’t the harmless ones that became suicide bombers, exploding themselves in grocery stores and buses and such.
If the Israeli Jews are guilty of anything, and I won’t say if they are or not, it’s military/police overkill. They may be guilty of overkill regarding their defensive measures, but I would never say that definitively.
CJA
David Strom: Whoops. I totally missed Jim Burdo‘s post. Thanks for that link.
Jim Burdo, far be it from me to try and argue Chomsky’s cases for him; HE is an internationally renouned political analyst and academic, I’m a visual artist with some general knowledge and an interest in current affairs (besides, Noam makes his cases brilliantly enough). If you feel like disproving him, I would STRONGLY suggest you find out what he says, first. It’s much more interesting than what MEIR KAHANE’S DEFENCE LAWYER has to say about him, I guarantee you.
David Strom’s link looks like an excellent place to start.
Chomsky’s work is very well documented in who knows how many books and articles. You’ll probably find some of those in your local library. I’ll be assuming you won’t want to buy any, for now.
Too lazy to read? No problem! Jello Biafra (and me) is here for you: Biafra’s record company, Alternative Tentacles, releases
Chomsky lectures on CD on a regular basis. You can buy those at their online store in http://www.alternativetentacles.com.
However, if you don’t want to spend money, there’s an EXTENSIVE MP3 archive in their MP3 section, where many Noam pieces are featured alongside Biafra himself, Howard Zinn and many many others, including a lot of the best punk music ever made; it’s legal, it’s free, it’ll expand your mind and give you a good idea on what those people actually have to say.
Yugami: It is almost eerie that everybody that has commented so far has agreed with PAD… I find this frightening. Are you all agreeing with him because you actually feel this way, or are you agreeing because you’re fans?
Well, um, this is sort of a ‘fan’ site, right? I mean, why would you be here unless you’re a fan of PAD’s works/opinions? I admit, it dovetails in a self-fulfilling way, but it sort of makes sense…
And while I’m thinking about it, why are all you conservative types hanging around here? I’m not trying to be sarcastic, really, I’m just wondering. I don’t mean to call out the guys of a conservative bent who are fans of PAD, who actually enjoy discussing issues (as opposed to beating people over the head). I enjoy a good discussion myself, and I wouldn’t want to infringe upon the pleasure anyone recieves from participating. But, honestly, some of you (not to name any names) seem to post just to be a Flaming Troll. Wouldn’t you be more comfortable on the conservative blogs? What gives?
The OTHER John Byrne
In regard to the “Left Behind” angle… check out these links: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/07/29/left_behind/
http://www.uucmp.org/Forrest's%20Sermons/WillYouBeLeftBehind.htm
The first is an article from salon.com, which more or less sets the stage for the second link, an opinion piece (actually, a literal sermon) which winds down to a very prudent point: don’t let other people do your thinking for you.
One more link to make you think, this one to another article about the rise of anti-Semitism: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/printer.php?storyID=13958#bio0
Many thanks to Mr. Gunter David for his insights. The Arab/Israeli conflict is so charged that solid information is hard to come by, and his summary is very much appreciated.
tOjb
It is worth pointing out that the Palestinians who “want to kill” Jews are killing fewer Jews than the Israelis who, ostensibly, don’t “want to kill” the Palestinians. By about a 3-to-1 margin.
Is the hatred directed by the Palestinians against the Israelis more intense than vice-versa? Quite possibly. However, Israel poses a much greater threat to the welfare and existance of the Palestinian people than the Palestinians do to the welfare and existance of Israel, by simple virtue of Israel’s economic and military power.
Part of the problem is that, for much of its short history, Israel WAS under a real threat, in the form of the various Arab nations, in tandem and individually. This threat has been reduced greatly, but the Israeli government continues to respond to Palestinian uprisings as if they were every bit as much a threat as the combined militaries of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc. Against the Arab nations, Israel was the underdog, but against the Palestinians, it is the dominant force.
I don’t mean to minimize the horror and innate WRONGNESS of the criminal terrorist attacks perpotrated by some Palestinians, but the WORST year in recent memory, 2002, only saw 300-some Israelis die in such attacks. Out of a population of 6+ million. That’s lower than the homicide rate in most major US cities.
4. There has never been a country called Palestine. The name is derived from the Hebrew word Plishtim, after the Philistines, people of Greek extraction who populated what later became known as the Gaza Strip. The land, first known as Canaan, eventually became the province of Palestine under the Ottoman empire.
That is a deceptive argument, because the very idea of nationalism is a very new one, and even moreso in the Middle East. Prior to WWI, there was no country calle Syria or Jordan or Saudi Arabi or Iraq, either. Indeed, a little more than a century ago, there had never been countries called “Italy” or “Germany” either, but you could certainly find people whou would describe themselves as “Italian” or “German” (or their linguistic equivalents).
My point is that MOST of the world has spent MOST of history as subjects of some foreign empire or other. That doesn’t invalidate the rights to sovriegnty of any people.
Egypt and Jordan had nearly twenty years to help the Palestinian Arabs create their own state.
I don’t think there is any question that the Palestinians have gotten screwed from both sides in this mess. The Jordanains, for their part, did, at least, extend citizenship to all Palestinians, but the actions of the Arab nations have probably done more harm than good. That is one of the reasons that Jordan eventually dropped its claim of sovreignty over the West Bank in favor of a seperate Palestinian government.
Claims from either side based on history or semantic twisting are useless. From an historical standpoint, the present West Bank is more analogous to the historical home of the Jews than the territory within the Green Line, anyway. The right of Israel to exist is proven by the simple fact that there are 6 million people there who consider themselves Israelis. However, there are also 4 million people in the Occupied Territories (and another million or so abroad) who consider themselves Palestinians. It would be as wrong to expect them to pack up and leave as it would to expect the Israelis to.
From what I understand the Jews have no religious reason to be the sole inhabitants of Israel, which is probably why Arabs have the same voting rights as any other Israeli as long as they are citizens.
But the Musilm Arabs in the Occupied Territories have never even been OFFERED Israelis citizinship, because they would then comprise a full third of the electorate, endangering Israel’s status as a Jewish state.
Also, Muslim citizens of Israel cannot enjoy the full benefits of citizenship unless they are willing to join a military engaged in military action against other Muslim Arabs, and cannot hold office unless they swear an oath to uphold Israel as a JEWISH state.
Israel is more of a democracy than most of the Middle East, but that isn’t saying a whole lot.
Also from what I understand there’s still a Islamic belief which goes something like ‘death to the infidels’ or some such.
There is nothing in the Qur’an to support such an idea, and it teaches tolerance for all “peoples of the book”, meaning Jews and Christians. Jews and Christians lived in relative peace and acceptance for most periods in most of the Muslim world. Remember it was the MUSLIM Ottoman Empire that first allowed large-scale Jewish immigration to Palestine. The first Arab resistance to Jewish settlement actually came from CHRISTIAN Arabs…
This ignores one hugely important fact. Muslims have no “religious” need to have that land.
Um, except for the fact that it is the site of the third holiest shrine in their entire religion, The Dome of the Rock, where they believe their Prophet ascended directly to Heaven, a place to which they directed their prayers for much of their history before switching to Mecca. No, other than that, they have no religious interest in it…
Before Jews started returning to Palestine in the late nineteenth century the Arab world couldn;t have cared less about it.
Except for the Arabs who were, y’know, LIVING there. And the Arabs who were fighting to throw off foreign rule and trying to unite all Arab lands into a single nation. Other than that, yeah, they couldn’t have cared less…
**Just realized:
Does this mean that PAD is the Son of G-D?**
No, it just means that the PADguy is the son of a GADfly. 😀
(ouch)
(we will now return you to our regularly scheduled blog topics)
Chris
jack Collins:
That is a deceptive argument, because the very idea of nationalism is a very new one, and even moreso in the Middle East. Prior to WWI, there was no country calle Syria or Jordan or Saudi Arabi or Iraq, either. Indeed, a little more than a century ago, there had never been countries called “Italy” or “Germany” either, but you could certainly find people whou would describe themselves as “Italian” or “German” (or their linguistic equivalents).
I think you’re missing the point of the argument: a response to the often voiced opinion that ‘Jews conquered the country of Palestine’.
To answer Mr. Collins’ argument, I’d like to point out that the country I live in was called Canaan in the beginning, and was later called Israel during the time of Moses, and certainly after Saul, David and Solomon became kings of Israel. The name “palestine” was a name given to Israel by the Roman empire for political purposes following the Bar-Kochva revolution. As for the Arabs, I would like to point out in all due fairness that if there’s any country to which they do have a national claim, it is Saudi Arabia. While as for us, our national right is in this country.
If it be important to anyone, let me post the quote of the great Martin Luther King again over here:
“And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other
nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism. The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just ‘anti-Zionist’!”
— Martin Luther King, Jr., “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
It would be strongly recommended of everyone to bear this part in mind, and also to remember, that Jack Kirby and Stan Lee are also both Jewish and as far as I know, they were both sympathetic to Israel.
As to Noam Chomsky, he is not a reliable source. Certain old timers in Philadelphia claim that he plagiarized much of his linguistic theories from Zellig Harris of the University of Pennsylvania. If you wanna see how crooked Chomsky is, check up the different and contradictory versions of his own political background. Make sure to look at the interview with him published in Youth and Nation, a Zionist periodical, in the late 1960’s.
To answer Mr. Collins’ argument, I’d like to point out that the country I live in was called Canaan in the beginning, and was later called Israel during the time of Moses, and certainly after Saul, David and Solomon became kings of Israel.
I actually put togeter a set of historical maps of Jewish habitation and political influence in the region between the Jordan and the Mediterranian (to avoid any politically-colored terms).
Jewish political domination in the region totalled a little over 700 years, with only 2 100-year periods of any unified kingdom, and two divided kingdoms surviving an additional 200 and 330 years, respectively.
However, Jews did not make up a majority is all of the lands they controlled politically, especially as Saul, David and Solomon unified the various tribes and extended political influence beyond the Jordan into the territory of the Aramites, Edomites and Moabites. As I said, the historical region of primary Jewish habitation wasroughly the same as the modern West Bank, with its only access to the mediterranian a small stip near modern Haifa, and a finger reaching into Galilee. Jews have NO historical claim, for instance, to Gaza, which was always Philistine or Nabatean (Arab), except for 30 years at the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. Likewise for the Negeb, which was always predominantly Edomite/Idumean or Arab.
My point is that the region of medern Israel has been ruled and INHABITED by numerous peoples and cultures over the years, and that, except for a few hundred years, the Jews were not a major one, so it is futile to argue for a state of Israel (which I support) on those grounds.
The name “palestine” was a name given to Israel by the Roman empire for political purposes following the Bar-Kochva revolution.
Not exactly. “Palestina” was the Latin transliteration of the Greek name for the Philistines, the people who ruled the modern Gaza Strip and most of the coast of modern Israel. The use of the term “Philistine Syria” (//Syria Palestina//) for the entire region south of the Galilee dates to the Ptolemeic/Selucid period. The Romans did rename their province of Judea after Bar Kokhba, but were only following the lead of the Greeks.
As for the Arabs, I would like to point out in all due fairness that if there’s any country to which they do have a national claim, it is Saudi Arabia.
Why? Where does one set the cut-off point for a “national claim”. If you go back far enough, we’re ALL from West Africa, but that would get awfully crowded.
It is also important to realize that “Arab” does not just mean “from the Arabian Penninsula” but also “speaking Arabic”. As Arab influence spread, so did their language and culture, and rather than totally displacing the indigenous populations, they intermarried and imposed their ways. This is especially true in North Africa, where there are “Arabs” of decidedly non-Semitic stock, but this also took place throughout the Semitic world, meaning the Arabs living in between the Jordan and the Mediterranian, including the Arab JEWS, had ancestors there before the Arab conquests of the 6th century.
Moreover, Nabatean Arabs were a major politcial, economic force, and a major part of the population, in the regions comprising southern and coastal Israel today from the 4th century BCE. Moreso, for the most part, than the Jews.
Listen, entire history of Jews in the region, from the Exodus to the Diaspora, was about 1300 years, almost the same length of time between the Arab invasions until today. Neither side can make a stronger claim based on history alone.
I think you’re missing the point of the argument: a response to the often voiced opinion that ‘Jews conquered the country of Palestine’.
The context I’ve always encountered for that argument is one saying: “Since ther was never a Palestine, the Palestinians aren’t a real people and should just go live in any other Arab country”. This argument is grounded in the false assumption that national identity is a pre-determined factor, rather than a product of political and social circumstance.
I think it is very dangerous to equate Anti-Zionism, or even opposition to present Israelit policy, with Anti-Semitism, because that tells the opponents of Zionism that ALL Jews are a fair target.
Please understand, I am not remotely an Anti-Semite, nor am I anti-Israel. I have devoted my academic life to the study of the history and religion of the Jewish people. One might call me Anti-Zionist, in that I think the formation of the State of Israel came about in a very negative fashion, but the blame for that is shared by the Zionists, the Arab nations, and especially the European powers.
But that does not mean I don’t support Israel’s right to exist, any more than would deny the US’s right to exist based on the even more unfortunate circumstances under which it came to be. But the right to exist does not mean the right to deprive other peoples of their basic human rights, and the right to self-defense does not mean the right to disproportionate response or “pre-emtive retaliation”.
Jack Collins:The context I’ve always encountered for that argument is one saying: “Since ther was never a Palestine, the Palestinians aren’t a real people and should just go live in any other Arab country”. This argument is grounded in the false assumption that national identity is a pre-determined factor, rather than a product of political and social circumstance.
I don’t think Mr. David was suggesting Palestinians aren’t a people, or that they don’t have a right to a country; I know for a fact I am not.
In response to some of the critical comments regarding “religion” and it’s evil practices:
In the Bible (and I can only speak as a Christian), particularly the New Testament- where Christianity began- you will NEVER see any suggestion of hatred against the Children of Israel. There is, in fact, great concern and a deep yearning for the Jewish people, most notably the book of Hebrews, which was clearly written with a scholarly understanding of the Hebrew faith. Nowhere does it say that if someone doesn’t convert they must be killed. If you see a religious denomination doing that- they are wrong! No matter how much they try to tell you the Bible sanctions that. The “Church” should not be starting (or have started) “Holy Wars.” Christ said to turn the other cheek. He also commented on how He could have had angels intervene on His behalf to save Him- He chose not to. While I do accept Jesus as a standard (and saviour- yeah I know that offends some people) I refuse to associate with a church (small c) that would commit these attrocities.
That said, I believe Israel has a right to defend itself against… well, the rest of the world, much of whom has sworn to destroy it. The covenant made with Abraham said “I will bless him that blesses you, and curse him that curses you.” It’s hard for me to team up against God.
Regarding the old posting wondering which X-Files episode posited the “end times” scenario: that was in the Bible. Not too far from the prophesy about Israel actually becoming a nation again. Check it out, man. The Bible makes for some far out reading sometimes- even if you stick with the Old Testament.
Jack Collins says he’s spent his academic career studying Jewish history, etc. I suggest he read a few more books and articles and get away from pro-Arab propaganda, such as the slick Judeophobia of the New York Times [a really terrible newspaper, which I say on the basis of reading papers in Italian, French, Hebrew, and Spanish]. But let’s stay with the positive. On the history of the Western name “Palestine,” its usage, and the various other names for the Land of Israel [Matthew 2:20-21], check out the article at http://www.esek.com/jerusalem/iudaea.html
Also see books on the historical geography of Israel by Michael Avi-Yonah, on history by Michael Grant, Mary Sherwood, and Aryeh Kasher, on Arab collaboration in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple see Tacitus, The Histories, V:1, plus the various books put out in English by the Ben Zvi Institute in Jerusalem.
Avi Green was right about the name “Palestine.” The official Roman name for the Land of Israel, including the Golan Heights and Galilee, was Judea [IUDAEA], until emperor Hadrian changed it to “Palestine” after crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt. For Greek usage, check M. Stern’s Greek and Latin Authors on Jews and Judaism. If you read French, check Felix Abel’s erudite books. On the modern period, check out Samuel Katz’ books: Days of Fire, Battleground, and Jabo. Katz exposes British perfidy very well. So does William Ziff’s The Rape of Palestine. Ziff by the way later became a comics publisher. So many of the books published on Arab-Israeli affairs are either pro-Arab propaganda by Arabs or are meant to cover up the two-faced or triple-faced role of the British, the CIA, etc. On the CIA role see Andrew Tully, Miles Copeland, etc. Also see books by Frank Gervasi, M.S. Arnoni, Kenneth Bilby, Pierre van Paassen, Albert Londres [in French], Robert St. John, Uri Dan and Dennis Eisenberg.
umm, just for your information, anti-semitism does not refer only to hatred of jews, but refers to hatred of arabs too. you see, semitism is rooted in a form of language that is from the time of abraham, and since abraham was the father of two races: arabs, and jews, anti-semitism refers to both races. Just in case you wanted to know.