For those out there naive enough to think the anti-Semitic sentiments expressed at that Muslim get together the other day were somehow isolated, check out the following article.
There you can read about an exciting new series that I’m sure will be available on DVD just about any time.
When I wondered how Israel can negotiate with people who want them dead, I was asked if I was implying that all Palestinians want them dead. No. I don’t think all of anybody wants anything. But there will always be those who want them dead, and I suspect they will always be working to torpedo anyone who tries to have it otherwise.
I have a relative living in Israel who flatly thinks the country won’t survive. That history will remember a brief time that the Jews had a homeland, and that’s all. Interestingly, he has no intention of leaving the country, so maybe deep down he doesn’t believe it. But let’s face it: Things aren’t going so hot right now. Not in this country, not abroad. And when things aren’t going well, historically what’s the first, best response of humanity? Blame the Jews.
Hey, look over there! A whole bunch of Jews in one country LET’S GET ‘EM!
PAD
• 
I understand, Peter. Honestly, I’m sensitive to the issue too because I have a close friend whose family is still living in Palestine. There is a larger Palestinian population that wants peace than we often hear about or realize here in the States. There is no doubt in my mind that this is due to the fact that we’ve always “taken sides” with Israel. I guess my point is only that there is a population on BOTH sides that don’t want to see the other side dead. Until those people on both sides are empowered to do something, it’s always going to be an ugly situation there. There are just as many Palestinians that think all Israelis want them all dead. Neither point of view is correct. I guess that’s my point…or what I wanted to say, at least. Maybe I don’t have a point.
Is this in any way news? I’ve been saying this for a while.
And it’s not just Muslims, Europe has deeply rooted anti-semetic sentiments, so much so they can’t even acknowledge anti-semitism when they see it. Do people really think that suddenly Europeans went from killing millions of Jews for fun and profit to tolerating them in 50 years? Yeah, riiiight. The Europeans really care about Palestinians. They just hate Jews so much they side with anyone who kills them, even if they’re maniacal religious fanatics who would next target Christians.
And for the record, I’m not a Jew or a Christian.
The link does not seem to be working.
FYI.
Me, I never blame the people over there. On either side. I blame their faith(s). Were it not for their “religious” need to have that land… either side… this issue would not be that big. At most, we’d have another issue of one country invading and/or fighting another for land. It would just be land. But you throw in religion and it becomes a friggin’ holy war. I’ve met people with the “Christ Killer” excuse for hating jews. I’ve met those twits with “Their god ain’t like my god” excuse for hating Jews and everyone else. And I’ve met those with the “Jews control everything” excuse. They’re all twits. Though it IS fun having a talk with the “christ killer” folks and try to get them to explain why that deserves hate since their little book states the NEEd for their god to die AND speaks of them as the chosen or blessed people. Usually they just walk off and NEVER talk to me again. Saves me having to tell them to do that. Anyway, I’m just saying it’s all “god’s” fault. Blame god. He caused this. Can anyone else see a reason they are fighting over that winning piece of property? Please let me know.
Oh, and no, I am not a christian, jew, muslim or anything else. They don’t make sense. Some fun little stories and mythologies but nothing to live your life by. Besides, I respect human life to much to risk getting involved in any faith that has so many people using it as an excuse to kill people.
PAD,
I’ve got to ask this. I agree with everything you’ve said here (and with the posters above). There’s too much hate in the world, and Jews have suffered as few peoples ever have.
Which is why I find it so strange that in Fallen Angel, you have Adlph Hitler as a sympathetic character. Not as a character spouting Nazi rhetoric that is finding support in Bete Noir, nothing like that. But even though you haven’t had the character come out and say “I’m der Fuhrer”, you’ve made it plainly obvious who it is. And in assisting FA, and protecting her, you protray Hitler “today” as a sympathetic character.
I obviously have no idea what you plan to do with that character, nor would I try to anticipate what you’re thinking. But you talk in this post about the unfair depiction of Jews in the media, and you have the poster-child-of-hate as a secondary protagonist in your own media.
It seems strange.
What’s worse is that anti-semitism, or racism of any kind for that matter, shows the willingness of someone to remain an uneducated moron. If we have enough of those people around, we end up with the Dark Ages all over again.
Me, I never blame the people over there. On either side. I blame their faith(s). Were it not for their “religious” need to have that land… either side… this issue would not be that big.
While I agree that religion has been used as an excuse for all sorts of despicable acts, I think blaming the concepts of faith and religion doesn’t make a lot of sense (and let me note that I, like you, am not a part of any organized religion). If we applied your logic to racism, for example, then no one but Mother Nature is to blame for racial prejudice, because after all if everyone had the same skin color, there wouldn’t be anyone to be racist towards.
I think the human animal simply needs a “they.” And by “they” I mean, the other guys. The enemy. The guys from the other side of the tracks. If it isn’t because they worship a different God, it’s because they worship the same God a different way. If it isn’t because of religion, it’s because of what country they’re from. It isn’t because of what country they’re from, it’s their skin color. If it isn’t their skin color, it’s their sexual orientation. If it isn’t their sexual orientation, it’s their economic status, and so on and so on. If David Duke’s wet dreams came true, and we all woke up one day as white clones of one another, all worshipping the same God, we would STILL find reasons to separate into groups and hate the guy on the other side of the proverbial tracks.
Which is why I find it so strange that in Fallen Angel, you have Adolph Hitler as a sympathetic character. Not as a character spouting Nazi rhetoric that is finding support in Bete Noir, nothing like that. But even though you haven’t had the character come out and say “I’m der Fuhrer”, you’ve made it plainly obvious who it is. And in assisting FA, and protecting her, you protray Hitler “today” as a sympathetic character.
No, I’ve made it plainly obvious who he *might* be. There’s a vast difference.
Purely for sake of argument and speculation: Let’s say he is. Which I’m not saying, but let’s say. And if he is aiding the Fallen Angel, then the implication is that he’s trying to do penance. To do good works. To help in the protection of the very types of innocents he would once have trod upon mercilessly. Putting forward the message that absolutely no one, no matter how evil, is incapable of being turned around, of seeking redemption in some form, and trying to find his way to the side of the angels.
Personally, I don’t consider that such a terrible theme.
PAD
Ðámņ. I need to check out this Fallen Angel book.
Maybe I’m overly optimistic (or at least 51% so), but I do believe the Palestinians and the Israelis can make peace and live together peacefully. However, I think that can only happen when the common folks on both sides — not the politicians and the leaders — are willing to sit together, put aside the things that both sides have done in the past, and truly work towards a solution that’s fair to everyone. At the end of the day, everyone wants the same thing: peace and stability, a way to provide for themselves and their families, and a secure environment to raise their children. None of those things are dependent on faith or language or anything else that’s currently dividing the two sides.
On the other hand, if I may be flippant about things for a moment, maybe the easier solution is to forcibly deport everyone from the area, fence it in, then let Disney turn it into a religiously-neutral theme park. You want to visit, you pay admission like everyone else, and troublemakers get bounced out by Goofy and Donald. Well-behaved visitors get to see the sights, go on a few rides, and max out their credit cards on souvenirs.
Hey, it beats what we’ve got now…
No, I’ve made it plainly obvious who he *might* be. There’s a vast difference. Purely for sake of argument…
I figured that’s what your answer would be. That’s fine – I certainly trust your writing.
Personally, I don’t consider that such a terrible theme.
It’s not. It’s a great theme. I believe that occasionally (rarely, unfortunately), people do see the error of their ways and change for the better. And if you’re going to put forth the proposition that “nobody is beyond redemption”, you certainly can’t do it better than by choosing Hitler to demonstrate that point.
Of course, the thought has also occurred to me that Hitler/not-Hitler could also be siding with FA to gain her trust for nefarious reasons. With all the rampant speculation of FA’s prior history, it makes it interesting to think that Hitler might be getting on the good side of a blonde-haired Superman, sorry Supergirl, for some reason other than redemption.
But, I see I’m going off-track of this post. I’m done. Thanks for the reply.
Jam’s statement above is absolutely correct.
Reading the article Peter linked us to reminds me of one of the key points to propaganda: Always develop sympathy for your side. Often this is done by portraying your opponent as winning the fight and being a bully and your side is the honorable victim losing the fight. Most people root for the underdog, its just the way of human nature. I think that is why so many people hate the Yankees. So, it stands to reason that muslim leaders want to portray the jewish people as having all this power and abusing it, while the muslim peoples are the victims. I remember a statement in my psychology text that summs up propaganda quite well, “If you repeat a statement enough times, no matter how absurd that statement is, people will come to believe it is true.”
Isnt the best argument against a global conspiracy government (jewish or otherwise) that…well if there were a world-wide controlling agency, wouldnt they be doing a much better job of it!?!
If you repeat a statement enough times, no matter how absurd that statement is, people will come to believe it is true.”
By interesting coincidence, Michael Moore uses that very quote in regards to the Bush administration in his new book, “Dude, Where’s My Country.”
It was certainly applied enough in the most recent Presidential election. For instance, Al Gore *never* said he invented the Internet. He said he was an early supporter who backed legislation that helped it. Absolutely true. But the lie supplanted the truth to such a degree that even Gore wound up making joking references to how he invented the internet rather than take on the hopeless task of setting the record straight.
PAD
I find it truly disturbing that the same piece of propoganda, The Protocals of the Elders of Zion, is still being used as solid evidence against Jewish people. Its amazing that so many people, even highly educated and intelligent people are using this document as evidence of a global conspiracy that the world is being secretly run by the Jews. This is the document that Hitler used to fuel the fires of the Holocaust. So how can anyone use this piece of garbage as viable evidence for hate? Hate turns the most rational people into irrational fools.
Of course, if the world was run by Jews I think they would have enough power to squash down their adversaries and naysayers. People are so desperate when times are rough that they feel it is easy to go for a culture that they do not understand. It seems that when we are in times of economic crisis this docment magically seems to surface again. People cling to it like it was some biblical truth.
Its a sad world when people find it is easier to hate than to love. Its also easier to point the finger than take responsibility.
RE: Al Gore, I believe that he also coined the term “information superhighway”. If I recall correctly, it was related in part to his father being involved in (automotive) superhighway funding when he was in Congress.
First, the TV show. Here’s what the excellent conspiracy book EVERYTHING IS UNDER CONTROL, by Robert Anton Wilson, says about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: “TPOTEOZ, although proven to be a forgery to the satisfaction of academic historians, still enjoys a wide popularity… When meeting people who believe in the PROTOCOLS and trying to tell them it has been proven a forgery, I always hear the same counterargument: ‘Well, if it’s a forgery, how come so much of it has already come true?'” When it comes to prophesies, people will seize upon ANY possible evidence as proof, no matter how much counterevidence exists. (The worst example of this I can think of are the Holocaust deniers, who somehow say all the bodies and gas chambers and verification by every nation are a giant movie set.)
Will the Jews and Muslims ever coexist? Yes and no. On the one hand, they do — here in America. Plenty of businesses, towns, government offices, and other locations have Jews and Muslims working together, doing business together, spending time together. While there are hate crimes, I think it’s worked better than worse here.
Unfortunately, in Israel and the surrounding areas, there’s a fundamental problem. As I understand it — and correct me if I’m wrong — Israelis claim Israel as their permanent homeland, while Muslims believe the Israelis stole the land from them. Further, there’s a very large circle of violence: One side attacks, the other relatiates, then there’s a relatiation for the retaliation… And if one side stops the violence, it’s only a short time before the other side attacks, and it begins again. It’s hard to imagine a peaceful resolution there, where both sides agree on who gets what land.
The only hope I have comes from Roman Catholics and Protestants. A few centuries ago, these two religions absolutely loathed each other. Wars were fought between them, members of one faith detested the other, and even liberal autohrs like Jonathan Swift would put down Roman Catholics mercilessly. At the time, it must have seemed that it would be an eternal war. Now, the conflicts between the two sides are almost exclusively resigned to debates, as it should be.
BTW, I’m an agnostic, and I agree wholeheartedly with Graham Chapman: “It’s like I always say, there’s nothing an agnostic can’t do if he’s really not sure whether he believes in anything or not.”
There is a larger Palestinian population that wants peace than we often hear about or realize here in the States. There is no doubt in my mind that this is due to the fact that we’ve always “taken sides” with Israel.
This is absolutely true, and underlines just why it’s so hard for the United States to help broker a peace process. Even those Palestinians who find the actions of Hamas to be anti-Islamic at best and inhuman at worst find it hard to trust a country that has long invested time, money, and weaponry in the Israeli government.
This isn’t going to get any better with fundamentalist Christians running the show in Washington; since the whole end-times scenario demands that Israel survive–not for the sake of the Jews, mind you, but for the sake of the Rapture.
One of the reasons crap like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion continues to float around is because Zionism was a tremendously successful movement. They kept a steady flow of Jews moving to Palestine between the wars and then after WWII made sure the world didn’t forget it’s collective responsibility for the Holocaust. I’ve often said that if the Palestinians had any sort of true leadership the occupation would be over in a few hours. Can you a half million Palestinians marching peacefully to Al Aqsa? Does anyone really believe the IAF would be able to or want to stop a large-scale non-violent Palestinian movement?
Well a man can dream can’t he?
Milhouse/Moses: So what’s next the land of milk and honey?
Lisa/Aaron: Actually 40 years wandering in the desert.
Milhouse/Moses: Well after that it’s smooth sailing for the Jews, right?
Lisa/Aaron: Heh heh, yeah sure.
This isn’t going to get any better with fundamentalist Christians running the show in Washington; since the whole end-times scenario demands that Israel survive–not for the sake of the Jews, mind you, but for the sake of the Rapture.
Um…I missed that X-Files episode. So, are you saying the Illuminati don’t control washington? What about the freemasons do they know about this? Or are they all the same? Or is it all an alien conspiracy? Those christians are pretty sneaky. Are they competing with the jews for global control? Will people please get it staright about who is running the world! My money in on the smiley guy from Neil Gaiman’s Sandman.
Well, that certainly looks familar… take a look at this, I’m sure they’d approve:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/thumb.htm
i’ve found this an interesting read. while not completely aware of the israeli/palestianian situation i’ve noticed people voicing the similar thoughts. one person summed it up nicely with something along the lines of it not being about skin colour or religion or sexual orientation or disability but about culture which wholly encompasses all those mentioned above and many more.
someone said no one has had it as bad as the jews. that may be but what about all of the indiginous (sp) people who were colonised? i know my country is still feeling the affects of such colonisation which happened around 1840. every country that has indiginous people can relate its at varying degrees but it still affects them today.
i also agree with what Robert Jung said about it having to be the people AND those in “power” who get together and come to the table. if everyone buys into something it is more likely to work.
i think cultural safety might be something that would apply well here. knowing what you yourself brings to the table and knowing what everyone else does so you can acknowledge and respect it. you won’t be able to predict anything but so long as you know that in this space you (your culture/beliefs) will be safe then you are more open to such things. who wants to be in a room with someone who says ‘i blame religions and god for war’ do you really thing you would listen to them? no, i don’t think so.
i just want to add a story i heard the other day, something to think about from a cultural safety course i attended. yes an empowering story….
a man was walking along a beach and saw a spindly thing that was doing something he didn’t understand. when he got closer he saw it was a boy throwing starfish into the sea. the area of the beach he was on was covered with millions of starfish. he watched the boy for awhile as he bent down, picked up a starfish and threw it into the sea. finally he asked what the boy was doing.
‘i’m throwing the starfish back into the sea so they won’t die.’
the man immediately replied with, ‘why bother? you won’t make a difference.’
the boy looked at the man as he threw another starfish into the sea, ‘well i made a difference for that one.’ he threw in another, ‘and that one…’
its daytime for me you guys are all asleep so it looks like i post often 😛
i just wanted to make another comment (because i can). regarding what someone above said. this is very hard to put into the right words but…
if someone put down my beliefs in such a manner as was described above, i would walk away from them too. why? because they weren’t someone with whom i would wish to associate. yes they have their own opinion and they are entitled to that. but if someone was so caught up with what my faith/beliefs may or may not have caused (for good or bad) instead of me as an individual then why should i have to listen to them? they don’t respect me because of a prejudice or stereotype they might have.
that probably didn’t come out right.
and i also feel compelled to point out that i don’t believe in a god or have a religion as such. you could say however that my beliefs have been picked up from what i’ve chosen to take on board from others, my experiences and tv 🙂
oh and my dad is a born again christian. they celebrate their faith a bit differently, ‘happy clappism’ is what my mother calls it. and when i think about it thats something negative (parents split awhile ago) and until recently i had been calling my dad’s beliefs that because thats what my mother had.
when you think about it, its so very easy to pass along your view of things (life, people, universe) to your children. your “beliefs” again for good or bad…
erk ok i’ll shut up now for a bit. i get all carried away sometimes and i apologise for that, but not the intent behind what i said.
cheers
Hm. I always took Dolf in Fallen Angel to be the bášŧárd son of Hitler.
But I’ve seen a lot of antiSemitism in m y life, and expect more to come, sadly.
This is really tangential, but Gore actually did say “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the internet.” There’s a good argument to be made that Gore has a legitimate claim to a significant role in promoting the internet, but that isn’t what he said. (In all fairness, it might have been what he meant.)
Getting back to the real topic, I agree with PAD. In the last thread about this issue (the one that started with Jon Stewart), someone posted a link to “Little Green Footballs.” Follow that link and you find a link to this page:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2003/10/me_and_my_musli.html
I frankly wouldn’t blame international Zionism if they did try to take over the world in self-defense. Hëll, I’d join them. Israel has been our best ally in the Middle East since its inception. Unless our imposed-at-gunpoint reforms take root in Iraq, it’s going to be the only reliable democracy in the region for the foreseeable future. If the alternatives are Hamas and Syria maybe “taking sides” isn’t such a bad idea.
jam above seems to think europe is full of jew hating biggots well me personally i wouldn’t dare to sum up 140 million peoples views in one sort statement, because hey i mean that would be a bit concited wouldn’t it and just to rub it it several european nations were fighting hitler=(EVIL) for three years before amererica got it’s wake up call an historical fact that seems to missed in most holywood movies.
snap
Me, I never blame the people over there. On either side. I blame their faith(s). Were it not for their “religious” need to have that land…
This ignores one hugely important fact. Muslims have no “religious” need to have that land. Before Jews started returning to Palestine in the late nineteenth century the Arab world couldn;t have cared less about it. It was a forgotten backwater of Syria. They don’t want the land so much as they don’t want the Jews to have it.
1. What’s “cultural safety?” A song by Men Without Hats? (I apologize halfheartedly for the unnecessary sarcasm, but I dislike buzzwords, even obscure ones.)
2. I don’t understand batmansero’s reference to “every country that has indiginous people.” That’s every country except Greenland (which is arguably still not a country). If you go back far enough every civilization on Earth is an Imperial power. We accept the Scots’ displacement of the Picts as a fait accompli. For that matter Islamic imperialism took Palestine/Judea away from Jews and Christians in the time of Mohammed. Unless the passage of time legitimizes larceny in some way, we have to accept that politics are always messy and sometimes zero-sum (i.e. one party has to lose its share of a fixed amount of resources in order for another to advance– following my own complaint about obscure buzzwords). Every nation is guilty of this to some extent. After the Holocaust a Jewish homeland was an absolute necessity, and the Palestinians in some sense got the short end of the stick. (The settlement at the end of the British Mandate would have actually been much more beneficial to the Palestinians had they and their neighbors not tried and failed to push the Israelis into the Mediterranean Sea.) The Palestinians have to accept that there are about 6,000,000 Israelis who aren’t going anywhere and with whom they must negotiate. The past is immutable outside of science fiction. It’s what we do next that matters.
[B]This isn’t going to get any better with fundamentalist Christians running the show in Washington; since the whole end-times scenario demands that Israel survive–not for the sake of the Jews, mind you, but for the sake of the Rapture.[/B]
And this statement is diffeent than claiming a huge Jewish conspiracy that runs the entire planet?
The settlement at the end of the British Mandate would have actually been much more beneficial to the Palestinians had they and their neighbors not tried and failed to push the Israelis into the Mediterranean Sea.)
I’ve been doing my own little research on this conflict and read about the British offer and I was thinking the same thing as stated above. Couldn’t agree more.
since the jews “rule the world” how come they keep on writing such bad šhìŧ about themselves?
while Muslims believe the Israelis stole the land from them
See, I’ve always found this line of thinking as very stupid.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, all share some of the same “holy land”.
And, yet, Judaism was first. It’s also treated the most horribly by those religions that follow.
It’s rather absurd. If anything, it’s everybody else that’s been stealing land from the Jews.
Is the Islamic population at large in the Middle East too stupid to care about this or what?
In response to David Bjorlin:
Cultural Safety – I guess you could call it a buzzword. it has been relabelled many things in the past like ‘cultural awareness’ ‘cultural sensitivity’ etc, so as not to scare people. funny how people run a mile when you say that.
so far (that i know of) the only example of Cultural Safety that is taught is in our (New Zealand) nursing system. my workplace (a school with over 600 staff) is introducing the idea of it into our organisation.
the quotes i am providing is for nursing but applies all over in theory.
From the thesis ‘Cultural Safety and Nursing Education in Aotearoa and Te Waipounamu’ by Irihapeti Merenia Ramsden:
‘The dream of Cultural Safety was about helping the people in nursing education, teachers and students, to become aware of their social conditioning and how it affected them and therefore their practice.’
‘Cultural Safety has been expanded to include all people encountered by nurses who differ in any way from the nurse. It is concerned with the unique, individual and bicultural (ie one person to one person) relationship between the nurse and the patient. However difference if expressed, whether by gender, sexuality, social class, occupational group, generation, ethnicity or a grand combination of variables, difference is acknowledged as legitimate and the nurse is seen as having the primary responsibility to establish trust.
Cultural Safety is therefore about the nurse rather than the patient. That is, the enactment of Cultural Safety is about the nurse while, for the consumer, Cultural Safety is a mechanism which allows the recipient of care to say whether or not the service is safe for them to approach and use. Safety is a subjective word deliberately chosen to give power to the consumer.’
=
David regarding your number 2 point. i didn’t understand a word of it, well except for the small ones. ah except to say the only examples i know of that i was thinking about are more the white guys coming over (early brits) and colonising places like america (native american indians), new zealand (maori), australia (aborigines), india, south africa etc.
it annoys me i don’t know how to do macrons on the net cause i know i’m spelling maori incorrectly. the argument i had with my web designer when he told me you couldn’t do that on the web and that a line doesn’t go over the ‘a’ in ‘maori’. showed him, found him websites that had it. er yeah sorry a bit off topic.
ok more in response to David.
number 2. rereading helps with understanding. i’m a bit slow sometimes.
yes i agree in the past that one side ends up giving up land, resources and stuff. same with my country. but ‘giving up’ really isn’t the right word. more like having it taken from you would be more accurate. or putting cyanide in flour and waiting for them to die and dragging out their bodies before you set up shop. ok that’s only one example i don’t know if it was repeated.
anyway i’m getting off topic. i’m saying it shouldn’t happen like that. it should be that there is some give and take (and not the i’ll give you 2 guns, some beer and this barbie doll for the whole of california) on both sides for the mutual benefit of all. of course you get some who are greedy and believing they are superior and you get the above stuff and more.
that cyanide stuff i only found out the other day. scary how people influence your beliefs by only telling you one side of the story.
It is truly a sad world we live in…
Hey, if I convert, can I join in this conspiracy? I’m broke and need a piece of that supposed Jew money.
I would also accept offers from the Bliderberg Group, the Tri-Lateral Comission and Skull and Bones.
Need an antagonistic internet gadfly on your conspiritorial team? I’m there, baby. As long as you don’t take away my rock n’ roll, comic books and mindlessly violent entertainment, I’m on your side.
I’ve already been writing disinformation pieces, I’ll gladly continue my scoffing at the mere notion of conspiracies for a PITTANCE.
$1000 A MONTH. I’m cheap, cheap, cheap. Throw me a bone, I’m not asking for a lot, you’ve got TRILLIONS. I’m an extremely loyal employee and would put my mediocre talents to work for your conspiracy day and night.
I wouldn’t mind a small cabin in upstate Michigan and a new computer(12″ Apple PowerBook G4 with maxed out specs and a superdrive) but that’s negotiable.
Actually, the computer could be like a signing bonus. I need that.
I’m serious. Really. I’ve got a fin in my wallet. I need some fûçkìņg money, and I don’t want to work at some meaningless job.
Let me join your conspiracy. I want to be a part of the wheels that move the world!
Jamie Maynard
In case anyone didn’t get it, that was a JOKE.
My understanding of Islam is limited, but I believe that Jerusalem is of great importance to the Muslim faith. It is the site of the Dome of the Rock, which I believe commemorates the spot where Muhammad ascended into the seven heavens and received a message from Allah. It is also the place where Jesus lived and died, and although he is not as important to Muslims as he is to Christians, Jesus is considered a very important prophet, as are Moses and Adam.
I have limited knowledge of the history of the region, but my understanding is that Jews and Muslims generally got along for most of their history. (There were sporadic massacres and taxes paid by non-Muslims, but compared to the treatment Jews endured in Europe, this was nothing.) The reason the Palestinians could say that the land was theirs was that the Jews had largely been dispersed by the Romans in 77AD, and only a small remnent remained. This remnent and the Muslims got along until the Zionist movement started importing millions of persecuted Jews into Palestine. I have always felt that the Muslims didn’t hate the Jews because they were Jewish, but because they soon outnumbered and dominated the Palestinians in what the Palestinians considered thier land.
Consider this. You live in, say Sweeden. Cambodians persecuted by the American millitary immigrate to Sweeden in huge numbers, looking for a homeland and safety. Eventually, the Cambodians come to dominate the area, running the governmetn and instituting their language. As a Sweede, you may have no problem whatsoever with Cambodians as a people, but you might be miffed that you are now the minority in a nation that you had always considered your own.
Incidently, I always liked the origins of the word Israel. IT is the name of the father of the twelve tribes of Jews, of course, but it means “he struggled with God”. It is a bit like a Muslim nation naming itself Jihad.
Ben Hunt
(who is a Christian, and should probably know better than to get his nose in a Jew/Muslim debate, but can’t resist the urge to pontificate.)
All I’m going to say is that the world would be better if we all could either agree or agree to disagree. And then go to a pub, if only for a few laughs. Stopping the insanity of bigotry and killing will never happen, because you can’t fix stupid, as a certain famous author once said.
PAD,
From what I’ve seen lately, opposition to anti-semitism and support of Israel seems to be growing on the US political right as it declines on the US political left. Do you fear a time when you may be forced to decide between voting for your principles and the safety of your relatives?
I’m not at all optimistic about the chances for peace between Israel and the palestinians. Israel is just too useful as an public “enemy” to point to for various Arab governments who fund the Palestinian Authority. I think Israel is going to face a constant low-level state of war until there is large-scale political and economic reform throughout the Arab world.
Carl Henderson
For once, I agree with a political view posted by PAD! The nation of Israel has been far from perfect and there are valid criticisms of some what they have done. But we are only now beginning to understand the fear and terror they have lived under for decades. Recent surveys demonstrate that a very significant percentage of the palestinians do not have a problem with the suicide bombings (see http://www.dawn.com/2001/06/04/int2.htm for one of many news stories on the poll). The reality is if the arab states around Israel truly agreed to let Israel exist as a nation, the fighting would end. Whether one believes it is justified or not, the palestinians and some of the surrounding arab nations have just one goal: the eradication of Israel. The same is not true for Israel — they do not wish to eradicate anyone.
The discussion is very interesting. Before anyone else espouses on the topic, they might find it useful to locate the book:
Myths and Facts, A Guide To The Arab-Israeli Conflict, edited by Mitchell G. Bard.
It is available from the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), 2810 Blaine Drive, Chevy Chase, Md., 20815. You can also access the website http://www.JewishVirtualLibrary.org.
Although presented by a Jewish organization, it is the most balanced book I have ever seen regarding the situation.
It’s fascinating, a great read, and you’ll be speaking from a knowledgable platform once you’ve finished it.
[B]This isn’t going to get any better with fundamentalist Christians running the show in Washington; since the whole end-times scenario demands that Israel survive–not for the sake of the Jews, mind you, but for the sake of the Rapture.[/B]
And this statement is diffeent than claiming a huge Jewish conspiracy that runs the entire planet?
I take back the tone of my point but not the thrust. I think you underestimate the spread of evangelist thought in this country. People aren’t reading the Left Behind series in record numbers (check Amazon for that) just because they think it’s a ripping good yarn.
I doubt that the Peace process will work. The hatred of the Jews and Israel is too widely distributed by the governments of Syria, Saudi Arabia and others. It will take generations to clean up the mess.
It is almost eerie that everybody that has commented so far has agreed with PAD. I’m not saying you’re not entitled to your opinion, I’m just saying, where is the voice of debate? It’s not debate, or even discussion. This is a large group of people agreeing with each other. I find this frightening. Are you all agreeing with him because you actually feel this way, or are you agreeing because you’re fans? I am a fan, and I am not going to agree, because I respect him too much to hide my true opinion.
I find it an odd claim that Israel says it can’t survive while all these mean, evil Palestinians are attacking them. Especially since Israel has tanks, bombs, soldiers, and America backing them up. Palestine is so desperate they are throwing people, and relying on nothing but faith. And all of this over an area of land that you can cross, north-to-south, in a six-hour drive. I’m not saying either side is in the right, or is more vulnerable – it’s just something I wanted to bring up to bring a bigger perspective to this picture other than “omg, muslims hate teh jews, omg”.
And to bring a bit of history into the discussion – Israel wasn’t the original place the Jewish people came from. Remember your Bible lessons kids: They fled Egypt, where they were originally from, and King David conquered the area that is now Israel. And before that, Joshua conquered most of the tribes and city-states in the area of Canaan. Do not accuse anybody of stealing Israel, when it didn’t belong to them in the first place either.
Absolutely no nation that exists at the moment could have existed without the previous wars, invasions, and genocides that took place, and that includes Israel. Israel doesn’t get to pretend to be separate from that human fact. By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
Yes, you’ve been kicked out of your land. Yes, you were almost eliminated by genocide. But I don’t hear anybody giving Native Americans back the land that the Europeans stole, nor do I hear Native Americans saying that the entire world is anti-Native American. Where are the voices piping up to save that culture, when it’s in even greater risk of dying than the Jewish people are?
I also believe it is unfair to say that practically everybody is anti-Semite. In fact, I’m probably going to be accused of being anti-Semitic just for saying that, but what the hey … In all honesty, I’ve seen more prejudice towards the Muslim population as of late. There may be some true anti-Semitism out there, but you’ve got to realize that right now it’s more likely somebody would beat a Indian Sikh, confusing his turban with a Muslim one; or that some jerk would tear the hijab off some poor Muslim girl that was only trying to shop.
I don’t feel I can really say anything about religion, because I’m not thoroughly versed enough in the Quaran, The Bible, or the Kabala. So I’m just going to end this with – what I feel – is an appropriate quote from the first season of Red Dwarf.
Lister: “They’re just using religion as an excuse to be incredibly crappy to each other.”
A.I. Toaster: “So what else is new?”
Michileen: If we applied your logic to racism, for example, then no one but Mother Nature is to blame for racial prejudice, because after all if everyone had the same skin color, there wouldn’t be anyone to be racist towards.
Not precisely. While ‘faith’ and belief in higher powers is as old as man, organized religion is a human construct, designed mainly to control the masses. To me, worshipping some abstract, all-powerful god (according to someone else’s rulebook, no less) makes as much sense as worshipping the sun; I’m sure it was a great idea at the time, but seriously – we have to start moving on. Comparing this with subtle genetic adaptaions to different habitats is a mistake.
Robert Jung:
On the other hand, if I may be flippant about things for a moment, maybe the easier solution is to forcibly deport everyone from the area, fence it in, then let Disney turn it into a religiously-neutral theme park. You want to visit, you pay admission like everyone else, and troublemakers get bounced out by Goofy and Donald. Well-behaved visitors get to see the sights, go on a few rides, and max out their credit cards on souvenirs.
Oddly, it’s not far from my dream solution to the problem, except yours creates a new one: what to do with, what: 8,000,000 people living there now?
Bilal:
This isn’t going to get any better with fundamentalist Christians running the show in Washington; since the whole end-times scenario demands that Israel survive–not for the sake of the Jews, mind you, but for the sake of the Rapture.
I didn’t know that. Is that true? The rapture needs an Israel?
Carl Henderson:
From what I’ve seen lately, opposition to anti-semitism and support of Israel seems to be growing on the US political right as it declines on the US political left.
Huh? Opposition to anti-semitism is declining in the American political left? Chomski an antisemite? Michael Moore calling for Jewicide? Israel deserves criticism from people concerned with humanitarian issues and gets it, but one should never confuse that with racial hatred.
James:
The reality is if the arab states around Israel truly agreed to let Israel exist as a nation, the fighting would end.
Probably. We’d have no problem dealing with the settlers and fanatics. Most of us truly want peace, wholeheartedly support (or at least accept the concept of) a palestinian state, wouldn’t dream of electing warmongers if nobody wanted us dead, and as everybody has at least one realtive dead by war and politics, just want PEACE.
James: Whether one believes it is justified or not, the palestinians and some of the surrounding arab nations have just one goal: the eradication of Israel. The same is not true for Israel — they do not wish to eradicate anyone.
Well, I wouldn’t go that far. “Elements within the palestinians and some of the surrounding arab nations have just one goal: the eradication of Israel” would be more correct. I believe most of the people in the region just want to live in peace, but for various political interests are being manipulated into war, most of all the Palestinians. These poor bášŧárdš are everybody’s pawns.
it is, however, true that no Israeli or Jew was ever about genocide (not even our closest thing to a Hitler: Meir Kahana), and any accusations along this line are ludicrous.
Mark L:
I doubt that the Peace process will work. The hatred of the Jews and Israel is too widely distributed by the governments of Syria, Saudi Arabia and others. It will take generations to clean up the mess.
The British and French still dislike eachother, many Europeans are wary of Germans even though Germany is probably the most progressive (and least racist) country in Europe right now, etc., etc.
Nobody thinks Israelis and Arabs will be living in love and harmony, joyfully floating hand in hand towards a sparkling rainbow which will magically appear above a resurfaced Noah’s ark; mutual acknowledgement and an implemented decision to stop the fighing between countries and dealing with the fanatical elements would be quite enough for now. Later, a financial collaboration Like Peres envisioned and even tried to implement would be nice, but that’s LATER.
Every other day I seem to see attacks on Israel by Palestinians who claim they are retaliating for attacks on Palestine in which many innocents are killed as forces sek to blow up those they believe are wanted terrorists.
On every alternate day I see targetted attacks by Israelis on Palestine which sometimes kill the person they were after but also kill many innocents which is a retaliation for the murderous assault on innocents.
It seems to me that both sides behave in ways that just don’t sit with the whole idea of righteousness.
My philosophy? You can have whatever faith you want, but violence begets violence and there are two options. Come to some agreement or kill until theres’ no-one less to argue.
Right now, neither Israel or Palestine should be claiming any moral high ground about the way they are handling themselves. I have sympathies for both and less and less tolerance for either.
John
Guess I have first go at replying to Yugami:
It is almost eerie that everybody that has commented so far has agreed with PAD. I’m not saying you’re not entitled to your opinion, I’m just saying, where is the voice of debate? It’s not debate, or even discussion. This is a large group of people agreeing with each other. I find this frightening. Are you all agreeing with him because you actually feel this way, or are you agreeing because you’re fans? I am a fan, and I am not going to agree, because I respect him too much to hide my true opinion.
Considering the original topic of this thread is the Protocols, I would find it very surprising if anyone literate enough to operate a browser would question their stupidity.
I find it an odd claim that Israel says it can’t survive while all these mean, evil Palestinians are attacking them. Especially since Israel has tanks, bombs, soldiers, and America backing them up.
Well, let me use much restraint and put it this way: Technically, Israel could literally eliminate the “Palestinian problem” within up to a week if it were so inclined. But, believe it or not, 99% of us consider using our army to even one-tenth of its full capacity against the Palestinians OUT OF THE QUESTION, and most of us think we shouldn’t be using it at all.
Palestine is so desperate they are throwing people, and relying on nothing but faith.
Well, nothing but faith, political and religious propaganda, financial backing from quite a few countries and extremism of various sorts; otherwise, you’re completely right.
And all of this over an area of land that you can cross, north-to-south, in a six-hour drive. I’m not saying either side is in the right, or is more vulnerable – it’s just something I wanted to bring up to bring a bigger perspective to this picture other than “omg, muslims hate teh jews, omg”.
And the bigger perspective would be? You can cross the piece of land in question in any direction in about ONE hour. All of ISRAEL takes about 10 hours, Lebanon to Egypt; that it’s such a miniscule area makes the problem bigger, not smaller. If we had a humongous country, believe me, there would have already been a Palestinian state long ago.
And to bring a bit of history into the discussion – Israel wasn’t the original place the Jewish people came from. Remember your Bible lessons kids: They fled Egypt, where they were originally from,
…and to which they went from Canaan…
and King David conquered the area that is now Israel.
Actually, what is now Israel was but a miniscule part of his empire.
And before that, Joshua conquered most of the tribes and city-states in the area of Canaan.
All of which, of course, happened in times so ancient it has no consequence over current affairs unless you’re some kind of extreme religious fanatic. You know the Aztec, Roman and Ottoman empires, or the middle ages and the crusades? This was WAAAAAY before that. These days we’re dealing with the repercussions of Zionism, the Holocaust and a couple of UN resolutions. Biblical times have nothing to do with it for most of us.
Do not accuse anybody of stealing Israel, when it didn’t belong to them in the first place either.
Huh? Well, in the abstract, nowhere belongs to anyone. Is that what you mean?
Absolutely no nation that exists at the moment could have existed without the previous wars, invasions, and genocides that took place, and that includes Israel.
Absolutely.
Israel doesn’t get to pretend to be separate from that human fact.
Absolutely, and it doesn’t.
By the way, the tribes that existed in Canaan and Israel before, where did they go? Have you ever heard of them? Did they all convert, or did the then-Hebrew state stamp them out? (If anybody really knows the history of the area before Joshua settled there, I’d really like to know)
Well, some of them settled in and around Jerusalem, some went beyond to other parts of the middle-east; that’s why you could find Jews in Ethyopia, Morocco, Aphganistan, pretty much anywhere you’d care to mention.
Yes, you’ve been kicked out of your land.
I thought you said it wasn’t ‘ours’ to begin with.
Yes, you were almost eliminated by genocide.
Yes, we have. What are you saying, ‘get over it, this was almost 80 years ago’? And then bring the Old Testament as factual basis for historic perspective?! ARE YOU COMPLETELY DERRANGED?!?
But I don’t hear anybody giving Native Americans back the land that the Europeans stole, nor do I hear Native Americans saying that the entire world is anti-Native American.
That STILL nobody in any position of power in America does anything to even TRY and make amends for that horrible genocide is disgraceful. However, you will find that Anti-Semitism is more common than Anti-Native-Americanism; so much so, infact, that the latter does not even exist.
Where are the voices piping up to save that culture, when it’s in even greater risk of dying than the Jewish people are?
Few and far between. Check out Prof. Ward Churchill, and go on from there. And just because us pesky Jews failed to get eliminated back in the 30’s, doesn’t mean we have no right to pre-emptively protect ourselves now.
I also believe it is unfair to say that practically everybody is anti-Semite.
Absolutely; and nobody said that.
In fact, I’m probably going to be accused of being anti-Semitic just for saying that, but what the hey … In all honesty, I’ve seen more prejudice towards the Muslim population as of late.
While the thought initially did cross my mind, I think you’re mostly uninformed. Infact – antisemitism INCLUDES muslims.
There may be some true anti-Semitism out there,
Oh, there is.
but you’ve got to realize that right now it’s more likely somebody would beat a Indian Sikh, confusing his turban with a Muslim one; or that some jerk would tear the hijab off some poor Muslim girl that was only trying to shop.
And it’s shameful; but on the bright side, you seem to agree that racial hatred is WRONG.
I don’t feel I can really say anything about religion, because I’m not thoroughly versed enough in the Quaran, The Bible, or the Kabala. So I’m just going to end this with – what I feel – is an appropriate quote from the first season of Red Dwarf.
Lister: “They’re just using religion as an excuse to be incredibly crappy to each other.”
A.I. Toaster: “So what else is new?”
Red Dwarf is cool.
I don’t think Noam Chomski is anti-Semitic or anti-Israel per se, but he is pretty pro-Palestinian. He has catalogued Israeli actions and acts of (his words) terrorism in several of his books. I don’t think that he is against Jews in any way, he just wants a bit more understanding of the fact that Israel has just as big a part to play in the current insanity as anyone.
And rightly so! Chomski, of course, is about as Jewish as you can get; I made a funny.
In a nutshell, his (frighteningly well backed) premise is that the entire situation throughout the ME is easily traceable to multinational oil interests (meaning, frankly, US foreign policies); and that unless there’s a major policy shift in the US regarding the way oil companies treat the area, there’s no way whatsoever any solution will be achieved – no matter which regime has power in israel or Palestine.