So I’ve been reading HULK for the past year, determined to wrap myself around why it is that the book is so beloved.
Guys…is it me? Be honest. Seriously. Am I so biased that I’m simply *incapable* of understanding the book’s success? Don’t get me wrong: Bruce Jones, perfectly good writer Loved his stuff on Ka-Zar.
But, my God, people say *I* drag out stories? Snails could do windsprints around this pacing. The latest storyline is pretty much the last straw for me. Five issues to tell a story in which the Hulk makes no significant appearance until the last issue…at which time, unless I’m reading it wrong, he did nothing to aid in the resolution of the story. That’s not even taking into account that the Absorbing Man talks and acts nothing like the Absorbing Man of forty years standing.
Yet fans support the book by the carload.
Really, I desperately want to understand the popularity. Someone explain it to me.
PAD
• 
Thank you for this thread, PAD. Otherwise, I would not have known what was actually happening in those issues. I read most of your run on Hulk, missing only one or two of your first issues on the title, I think. Overall, it was a pretty solid run that took a little while to get it’s steam built. I collected those few issues after you left due to artist and to see what could be done but mostly cause I am a purist. I tried the Byrne run on vol. 2 and gave it a few issues out of respect for the last time he was on the title and kicked serious ášš (for me anyway) but it felt lacking in direction and Tyrannus is a POS villain. Paul Jenkins run got my interests piqued and I enjoyed it. From the start, I got some of that old kick reading Hulk that I hadn’t had since your run (pre- Heroes Reborn). Sure he contradicted/erased some of what you added to the mythos (“Professor Hulk” being the biggie since it never felt like that was what your intention was) but he made those “new” facts work for the story and the characters still felt true. Then Bruce Jones took over. Marvel made a big deal of basically saying Jenkins was crap, now watch something REALLY good. So I gave it a shot. Granted he had my interest only because I wanted to see the Hulk. It’s like reading 3 Musketeers. You want to get to that “All for one” part. I wanted to see the Hulk. He was going to be bald apaprently since Bruce was pretty much bald. My only problem was that the STORY was so dámņ boring I had to re-read the issues every time a new one came out. I know someone posted that his initial storyline was a drawn out plot but it barely moved. There are writers out there that can keep a plot going over time and still tel fully plotted issues. David, Waid, hëll, even Claremont used to do it and can still to some extent in X-treme X-men. Some writers can tell a complete story in TPB size (3-6 issues) and not waste a page. I felt that the initial storyline could have been summed up in maybe six issues. I won’t talk of his… problems with Bruce’s characterization or any of the villains since that has already been summed up nicely above and I will only add that it was like Mark Millar was writing the character judging by his Ultimatre work which basically amounts to take a good person and make them a A-hole. No, It was the action that was missing the most. Like another long form entertainment, it just felt drawn out. Hardly any issue felt contained within the 22 pages allotted. Maybe it would work better as a long book but then again I tried that and it was still too dámņ slow. I can appreciate taking a different perspectivve on a character. It has to be done at times. but at least make it entertaining. I quit the book shortly after I dropped the x-men books (except for x-treme) and sent letters in to Marvel via email to explain my frustrations. Of course, they stopped printing letters then so I felt like I wasted my own time. Now this has probably gone on too long to just say “It’s probably the covers and because people are told to buy it and because some of the issues jumped in backmarket price due more to no overprinting and low initial orders than quality” but then again I am not writing a comic.
When will Marvel figure out that the pacing on a monthly comic shouldn’t be the same as a pacing on a full on old style graphic novel? If they continue to tell writers to drag out good stories that could be told in 2 or 3 issues maximum to 5 or 6 issues, the sales on the monthly books are going to drop until they can’t warrant compilation into a trade paperback due to the poor sales and negative word of mouth. How do they expect to hook new readers to a series when so many of their first issues have no action at all and, in many cases, hardly any or no appearances by their starring characters?
None of this excuses Jones’ use (or should I say misuse) of the Absorming Man. I think it’s time for another “Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe” for creators to use. This story was riduculous and embarrassing. Luckily I didn’t have to put any money down for it since I read the first two issues of a friend’s and didn’t bother with the rest.
I do miss Paul Jenkins’ approach to the book since it was so influnced by Peter’s run.
I may have to buy several of the upcoming issues myself though due solely to the Deodato art.
I tried the first few Bruce Jones issues because of the JR Jr. art (actually, I tried the free previews at Marvel.com before actually buying the issues, because all the other post-PAD issues I’d looked at sucked royally), and I found I really liked the new direction he took the book — the mysteries and conspiracies intrigued me. What’s going on? How will this be resolved?
Well, however many issues later, the answer is: it won’t be. Not in any satisfactory fashion, to match the degree of build-up and anticipation Jones has established. It’s the “Twin Peaks” of comics — by the time he gets around to explaining how Laura Palmer died, so to speak, no one will care anymore.
When JR Jr. left after the first few issues, I stuck around because the story still intrigued me. Then I stuck around out of habit. Then out of sheer stubbornness, I think. And now, with this horrible, horrible Absorbing Man arc, I’ve finally given up. I didn’t even buy the final issue of the story, because I just didn’t care. None of it rang true, all the characters were doing stupid, out-of-character things… it’s just a mess, an awful mess.
Schteve: What I would like to know, and hopefully get a response to, is why Marvel allows such blatant miscontinuity in it’s comics?
It’s not just Marvel, it’s DC as well, which is actually the worse of the two — at least Marvel never made a really big deal about internal continuity. DC had a big event that relaunched their entire universe because continuity had gotten too far out of control, but they’re regularly ignoring or retconning things. The reason they do it is so their star writers can be lazy. Six months ago, Judd Winick’s first issues of Green Arrow and the Titans/YJ crossover Graduation Day both came out. In GA, he’s presenting us with an Ollie from right before the GL/GA crossover from the ’60s — somewhat enjoyable — and in GD he everyone in the story was characterized completely contrary to how they were portrayed in YJ #55 — horrifying. Graduation Day was one of the worst comics I’ve ever read, and I’m not just saying that because I was a big fan of YJ — and worse, Geoff Johns (DC’s Golden Boy) has been using those awful characterizations in Teen Titans, and has retconned Impulse and Superboy both for a throwaway line and an unnecessary retelling of the origin, respectively.
SPOILER: The short version — Apparently, Superboy was cloned from Lex Luthor, not director Westfield. “What? You mean I’m not cloned from the worst person I ever knew, I’m just cloned from a guy I don’t like? NOOOOOOO!!!”
I’ve been reading the current HULK series only since Jones’s run started. At first, I loved it, and felt it was very fresh. Slowly, it started getting repetitive and stale. I’d enjoy an individual issue well enough while I was reading it, but overall, the issues were forgettable and completely interchangable, and I was enjoying the series less and less. I started thinking about dropping the title in favor of trades. Issues piled up in my folder, and I finally made the break.
Unfortunately, I was stuck with buying the Absorbing Man arc as my shop was overstocked on it and their HULK sales are plummeting. So I read the last four parts in one sitting.
Man, what a stinker.
Some people are blaming Leo, but I liked his art both here and on QUEEN AND COUNTRY. The problem is simply that the story stunk on ice, that Creel was neither believable nor threatening nor in character, and that it was, frankly, unclear what was going on for most of the story. I mean, c’mon, it’s Crusher Creel, not Hannibal Lechter. And how does mind-jumping even fit in with “absorbing”? At least give us a rationale for the changes!
Now, I’ve read online that Jones is going to be addressing the issues that some have had with the series — the glacial pacing, the endless subplots/mysteries, and the lack of Hulk in his own book — beginning with Deodato’s return.
But you know what? Too little, too late. I’m off the monthly. Perhaps I’ll buy a trade of the next storyline if it gets good reviews, but I’m through blowing money month-in, month-out on this.
I recently asked my comics retailer a similar question.
The reason why? Because it’s Hulk, and it’s Bruce Jones.
Because of those two factors, die-hard collectors will buy copies in volume sight unseen, and will probably never crack the cover to read ’em (that would hurt their mint-condition value!)
So basically, Marvel has guaranteed sales with this one, even though they don’t have guaranteed readers.
I totally agree. The pacing in a lot of books recently is sooooooooo slow. And for 3 bucks it’s more than I can stand. I’ve dumped some comics that I’ve been readin for 15 years because of the pace and all these new characters with the same names and faces of characters of the past.
Hey why was Rick Jones black for awhile there in CM? Not racist just wondering.
I think everyone has pretty much covered my opinions on Bruce Jones run on the Hulk. Hal Henke in particular. You just said it so much better than I ever could have.
Part of the reason I read this board is because I sought out information on the Web about the Hulk after Jones took over. I honestly couldn’t believe how horrible it was and I wanted to see what others thought and how well it was selling.
I was amazed that Jones was taking the Hulk to levels of popularity he hadn’t seen since Peter’s run. And I was even more amazed at the masses of people who praised it. Through all of that reading, I never once found a compelling reason as to why this book is any good. If you are a conspiracy fan, I think that you have to be disappointed in how sloppy the stories are. If you wanted to see Banner developed, well what exactly have we learned about him in two years? He is a whørë? Sick and tired of “Hulk Smash” good, that hasn’t been the case in twenty years.
Why do I hang on? Morbid curiosity, I suppose. My Wife dreads the time that I come home with the latest issue of the Hulk because she knows I will be angry all day after reading it. Perhaps I am atoning for sins committed in a past life? I must have been a bad, bad man in the middle ages to deserve this.
Mark B.
Nekouken–There’s no concrete evidence that there’s been any change in Superboy’s origin. The information is from an anonymous E-mail, which is probably from someone trying to mess with Superboy’s head (probably Deathstroke, at a guess). (And if you hate it so much, why are you reading it?)
I can only hope that when Bruce Jones finally leaves the book, Bruce wakes up and goes to the bathroom to find the Hulk in the shower a la Patrick Duffy on DALLAS, realizing the last few years were all a bad dream.
When JR Jr. left after the first few issues, I stuck around because the story still intrigued me. Then I stuck around out of habit. Then out of sheer stubbornness, I think.
Reminds me of a line by Lewis Black.
“The NFL has done everything in their power to make the SuperBowl unwatchable. ^&*() you! I’m going to watch it anyway.”
Travis
I can give you two very good reasons why I like it:
1. No giant snake incapacitating the Hulk.
2. No major de/reconstruction of the David Age.
As a long-time Hulk fan (since I was a little boy), I have never been more put off by a series of stories in this (or any other)comic. The last two years worth of HULK have made me loase almost total interest in the character. If not for the movie (which I loved), upcoming TV show DVDs and back issues I probably would have lost interest completely.
As to your question, Mr. David… I have no idea. It seems like the art plays a large role in people buying this title. The art, for me at least, has been the one saving grace for HULK lately. Part of the success, I think, also lies in drawing in legions of new fans who never cared about the Hulk before – and, frankly, still don’t care about him as a character. They (I’m just guessing here) enjoy the stories, but don’t give a fig about the Hulk or Banner or any of the other characters. When Mr. Jones leaves, so will these new readers.
If I offend someone by what I’m about to say, I’m sorry. I’ve noticed that there are a lot of fans in the hobby who absolutely HATE super-hero comics. They put the rest of us down and look down their collective noses at us. When one of us long-time fans brings up the way things used to be, we get shouted down as wanting only mindless action comics and stupid “cliched” spandex characters. I think that, in large part, this is the kind of fan that is attracted to Mr. Jones’ HULK.
I also think that other are being drawn to this title because of positive reviews from the “snob” category.
Hype and good reviews will go a long way.
Of course, I may have lost all good taste in comics and Mr. Jones’ HULK may be the best thing ever.
Where the hëll is the Hulk in the Bruce Jones stories? We see very little of him. The comic book IS called THE INCREDIBLE HULK, not BRUCE BANNER.
Mr Furious: “Bruce Banner IS the Hulk.”
The Shoveller: Not THIS again! Bruce Banner wears glasses. The Hulk doesn’t wear glasses.”
Mr Furious: “The glasses are his disguise.”
…Anyway, I have no idea what the purpose of the last story arc was. I don’t feel that it fits with the main story arc (but I do feel the Abomination arc does fit), and I really hated the characterization of Creel. Of course, the art didn’t help at all. To give me the likes of Leo Fernandez on the heels of what I think was Mike Deodato’s best run ever was bad enough. Then to try and make Creel out to be so evil, it just doesn’t fit the “kinda bad but mainly misunderstood” guy I’ve been reading about for the past 27 years now.
Also, I do not really care for the “X-files” approach to the book, though if there ever was a guy who had the whole world out to get him, it’s Banner. I don’t buy into the “Hulk blood” thing either, as it should be the same as Banner’s blood, seeing as how Banner is the Hulk. The fact that Jones has presented a super-strong Banner is just further proof to me that the blood is the same no matter what shape (or color) Banner’s outer form takes. In any event, it sure beats the recent FF story on the Thing’s angry dermititis.;-)
Having said all that, I have enjoyed Jones’ take on the Hulk, even if I don’t completely get it. In fact, maybe I like it because I can’t guess where it’s going next. I’d REALLY like it if the Pantheon was to show up, especially if they were the ones behind the whole conspiracy.
dAN
Well, the first few arcs of Bruce Jones on the Hulk were fantastic, I think. Taking the monster out of the picture and focussing on the man, thus making the Hulks appearances, which had become mundane and runof-the-mill, a shocking and wonderful scarcity again, was a great idea, as was the handle on the Bruce/Hulk relationship. The haircut, the meditating, Mr. Blue, getting rid of continuity and rebooting to a mix of the Lee/Kirby and the TV-Hulk, ad mixing that with a distinct flairt of mystery writing (plus verrry great art by Romita Junior)… there was nothing wrong with that.
The more Jones re-integrates the Hulk into the MU, the more we see that he ha ssome problems with that Abomination and Absorbing Man aren’t even close to the way they have been shown to be in recent decades (and, worse, they’re not BETTER or more interesting) and the stories feel as padded and extended as those awful early 80s-12″-remixes. I’m giving the book a shot until Deodato returns, but it is very close to flying out of my pull list.
Thanks for bringing this up, PAD. And I can tell that this is in the fans favor, which is all the better. 🙂
I think that the Hulk is currently suffering from the same kind of syndrome that the X-Men are: too many protracted storylines and soap-opera stories as well. Yet why anyone would want to buy a book that doesn’t even feature the Hulk in it is beyond me.
Addiction to comics is one of the most facinating, to say the least. But it’s got a downside, of course: if you don’t like the direction and still keep on buying the book, then the company won’t get the message and will continue to ruin it.
Sometimes I’ve wondered if collecting in some ways is similar to a childhood fondness to our favorite teddy bears. But of course, while we may love the characters, that doesn’t mean we have to love what’s being done with them and their books, and if it’s bad, then we should be appalled, and to stop buying would be very strongly advised. Mr. DeGraff, I can’t tell you how to make decisions, but in all due fairness, it may not be a good idea to buy the book as long as it helps Jones out in boring us to death with his Nowheresville approach.
As for Green Lantern and Green Arrow’s crossover, while I haven’t read it, I did discover that it’s got some [not too surprisingly] insulting dialogue in it, and the arguments betwen Ollie and Kyle were stereotypical at best. If so, then that’s hardly at all the kind of story I’d want to waste my time on.
Graduation Day is certainly the worst miniseries from DC this year, and an insult to Donna and Lilith fans. Let me be clear here that I would rather have a speargun at my head than read many of Judd Winick’s books, and in my opinion, the overrated Pedro and Me was little more than an exploitation of his own “best friend” for the sake of his own biased agendas. What, you don’t think so? Then why was the “and Me” needed in the title?
There have been plenty of ways in which the showbiz market’s been exploiting the dead and other such things in past years, as even Marvel did with Amazing Spider-Man 36 in 2001, and as far as I’m concerned, Winick is no different, period.
Peter, thanks so much for seeing the Emperor has no clothes. The pacing is horrible, Creel is totally out of character, and the Hulk showed up in two panels of a five-issue story. Did you notice that the Hulk lasted about five minutes, then switched back to Banner in the middle of a fight? Why? Has that ever happened before? I’ve noticed that when the Hulk appears (which is rarely), he is around EXACTLY as long as Jones needs him to move the plot slowly forward, no longer. He doesn’t really do anything besides look mean, throw an occasional car and sniff people. If Jones doesn’t want to write the Hulk, why is he writing the HULK?
And isn’t suddenly giving Creel the power to switch bodies kind of gilding the lily? He can already turn to concrete and smash your ášš! Where would he get the power of switching bodies? How? Is there an editor at work here? Anyone?
Jones’s first few stories weren’t too bad (although Marvel should have changed the book to BRUCE BANNER, FUGUTIVE for his entire run), but this last one was done by folks who have never read a Hulk comic before. Maybe Marvel thinks that’s cool and hip, but I think it drains further their very shallow pool of credibility.
I have read Marvel comics longer than three years. Therefore, Marvel hates me.
I buy it because my first comic was Hulk #367. It continued to the best run of comics I’ve ever enjoyed. Since then I buy the Hulk every month, its a part of who I am and one of the things I choose to do in life. The hypocrasy is that I do find the current story very slow, but something will change eventually and new stories will come. Maybe, someday, I’m hopeful for another run like #369 – 377.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this….But has anyone seen the Denzel Washington movie entitled “Fallen” (or maybe “The fallen) from a few years back? If you watch that movie…wait, no you don’t have to. The last 5 issues of the Hulk were basically the comic book adaption of that movie. Essentially the same story, just with different characters. (I’m not sure which is worse though, the movie or the comics)
Mike 🙂
Seems like other people don’t get it. Has anyone seen the latest Wizard comics review? They blast Hulk.
Sorry if this has been pointed out…I had to stop reading after post #56…
Carlos
You know, prior to Bruce Jones, I used to really appreciate issues of “The Hulk” where we got to see a lot of Banner. Maybe that’s because I initially jumped on board as a kid around #223, where we actually saw Banner “cured” for a couple of months. To me it was always a treat getting to see Bruce the man, even during those many times in PAD’s run when Bruce’s intellect was guiding the Hulk. But that guy that Jones is writing just ISN’T Bruce Banner. He comes across as some generic sex addict on the run rather than a tormented scientist. He could just as easily be Bruce Springsteen as Bruce Banner. And yes, the stories are drawn out more excruciatingly than “Meet Joe Black” and really are completely incomprehensible. What’s worse, we never even get to see Hulk beat the living @#*!#*! out of some other big muscled guy anymore. Even if I could actually afford to still actively collect comics, there’s no way this piece of dung would get anywhere near my reading list.
I haven’t seen anyone address this, but then I also am pressed for time and had to just skim…
I think anything is a good Hulk read with the memory of what Byrne did in the first few issues of the restart. Maybe that is what has everyone so up about this current run.
Just my opinion,
jeff
Sigh…
You guys have totally got at what my problem is with HULK. I liked some of Jones’ earlier issues, but he really screwed up on the last two arcs, especially with his characterisations of Absorbing Man, Abomination, and Nadia Blonsky. And he also has Doc Samson refer to himself as a physicist, instead of a psychiatrist. And what’s with the woman in the bikini that Bruce thinks about when he’s meditating? It can’t be Betty he’s thinking about – Betty was a brunette (most of her life), this woman is blonde. This, and how Bruce slept with Nadia (a lot), makes no sense, and is disrepectful to Betty and Bruces’ character. Betty was the only one for Bruce, and besides, he’s too emotionally repressed and awkward to fall into bed with a woman he’s only known a few hours. And now I hear rumours of Betty being brought back as Mr Blue – this is bûllšhìŧ. Peter David’s story of her death was wonderful and powerful, and now it looks like they’re going to screw it up. It’s like what happened with AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400 – J.M.DeMattias wrote a great story in which Aunt May died – and later Bob Harras (who kicked PAD off Hulk), Howard Mackie, and John Byrne, bought her back to life in a truly horrid story, revealing that she’d been kidnapped by the Green Goblin, who had replaced her with a “DNA-altered actress”, and… ah, forget it, it’s just too horrible.
Also, the current Hulk is supposed to be more realistic. Well, for all its superheroes and supervillains, aliens, whatever, I found PAD’s run on Hulk more realistic, more enterataining, and more in depth, in its portrayals of characters and in its plotting, than any of what Jones has given us so far.
And by the way, it’s just entertainment. You think you’re getting your money’s worth, fine. You don’t think you’re getting your money’s worth, just don’t buy the book, until you think it’ll be worth picking up again…that is to say when Bruce Jones finally ends his run.
I’ve enjoyed Jones’ run on the Hulk. I found the stories intriging and the art is usually great.
But, I am convinced that the stories are all 5 issues long because Marvel mandates it. Each story arc is perfect TPB size. Jones comes up with a story and then pads it out to get 5 issues.
While I continue to buy Hulk and Daredevil (where this is also happening), it could get me to drop a book I wasn’t enjoying quite as much.
I don’t have hard proof of this, but there have been rumors for a while. Mainly, I don’t think writers of Jones’ and Bendis’ caliber would only write 5 issue stories. Wouldn’t logic dictate that they would occassonally have a 2 or 3 issue story arc?
I like Bruce Jones. His first year of stories was interesting, and I liked the fact that the focus was on Bruce Banner, and not on “Hulk Smash!” because, well…as great as it is to see Spidey, I love Peter Parker. As fun as it is to see Superman, I truly care about Clark Kent (well, not lately, but…you get the idea).
I’ll agree, it seems like Marvel is trying to ride the wave of the movie by throwing in the Absorbing Man.
What I will say is that there are promised changes coming on the book, so I’m hoping it’ll get better.
I like the Hulk, too, but I entirely get the whole schtick about Banner being on the run from the Hulk.
I loved PAD’s run on the Incredible Hulk. This certainly doesn’t top it, but it’s better than the first year of this volume, and I’m looking forward to seeing where it goes.
I just hope I’m wrong about the identity of Mr. Blue. As much as I love the character being hinted as Mr. Blue, to bring her back into the book like this…could be a bad idea. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’ll be surprised.
But then again, thinking about the movie’s main characters, part of me thinks…”Nah. I’m probably not wrong.” We’ll see.
I tried Jones’s Hulk when he started his run but it was boring as hëll so I dropped it. Also Jones doesn’t seem to have any respect for continuity (his horrible Kingpin series) so that automatically makes any book written by him a big no-no for me.
Why does the book sell? Dunno, at least the artwork has been gorgeous.
I still don’t get all the hoopla over Jones’ Hulk. I keep getting told by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs such an emotional wallop.
To me its seems like the old Bill Bixby tv show where I was bored to tears for 40 minutes until Lou Ferrigno showed up.
I always liked a good Bruce Jones story. He was one of my favorite writers. But on Hulk, I tried the first couple, was bored beyond belief and decided that as far as I was concerned the Hulk ended with PADs last issue. I don’t mind a slow well thought out story, but some of these “sagas” are just too padded out. I’m beginning to have some doubts about this trend of writing for the TPB market.
I just don’t get it either. I feel like this book is being bought by people who just don’t like the Banner/Hulk mythos and history. It’s the only way that the sales make sense.
Banner is a complete cypher who’s jumping in bed with a woman just because she drops her clothes?
Abomination’s been revealed that the only thing he’s missed about Nadia, is that he hasn’t hit her in years.
The married, thuggish, Absorbing Man, who’s currently helping Thor is suddenly inprisoned, speaking like a scientist, and threatening to rape the closet women around.
The constant use of women in lingerie hold no bearing on the plot.
Plots contrdict post-and current-Jones contnuity.
Everyone talks the same, and all the dialogue is bad.
The Hulk sis non-existent. And contrary to popular belief, Banner is not being concentrated on. We have no more insight into him than we did with issue 34. Less actually, since he’s not even acting anything like he’s been previously been portrayed.
And still, the book is in the top 20.
I agree with PAD on the current Hulk regime. I’m sure Bruce Jones is a terrific writer, but he’s not showing it on this title. As for the alleged “popularity” of this title? Don’t believe everything Wizard says.
Oops…I meant “Aintitcoolnews” review, not “Wizard” review. Sorry.
Yeah, them too.
I haven’t read the most current story arc yet, since I buy them in trades (which is how they are written now, to be blunt), but Jones is doing something new with the character. Dealing with the horror of having a monster inside you that you can’t control.
PAD dealt with it at times, but no one has looked at the book and said, “This is a horror comic” since Ditko. And I believe there is a HUGE need in comics for horror comics.
When PAD left, I didn’t say I would never buy the Hulk again, but I did read some of the following issues and found them painfully lacking. The ones by Bruce Jones are so different that I don’t even think of it as the same character. That’s why I like it so much.
And, it’s nice to have Bruce Jones back. Maybe he’ll do some stuff like his Twisted Tales and Alien Worlds…short stories, which is also something comics are painfully lacking.
I still don’t get all the hoopla over Jones’ Hulk. I keep getting told by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs such an emotional wallop.
Yeah, but that only happened because the shark looked so fake, so awful, so unconvincing, that Spielberg had no choice *but* to keep it off screen for as long as possible. Otherwise he would’ve lost the audience with the shark’s first appearance.
PAD
Thanks to all of you who responded to this question. I’d dropped the Hulk after Peter’s last issue, and had not bought another copy since. I kept wondering what I was missing as I saw glowing reviews of Bruce Jones’ take along with reports about how well the book was selling. Now I know that I wasn’t missing anything I can’t live without, and I can go back to waiting for the next issue of Captain Marvel or Fallen Angel or TMNT or Soulsearchers.
I still don’t get all the hoopla over Jones’ Hulk. I keep getting told
by people who love the book that every arc is just like Jaws, where
Spielberg ramped up the dramatic tension by not showing the shark
fully until the end and that when you finally see the Hulk it packs
such an emotional wallop.
Yeah, but that only happened because the shark looked so fake, so
awful, so unconvincing, that Spielberg had no choice *but* to keep it off
screen for as long as possible. Otherwise he would’ve lost the audience
with the shark’s first appearance.
PAD
Actually, the mechanical shark didn’t work for most of the shoot, necessitating rewrites that emphasized character development over people being eaten alive. In the subsequent films, the mechanical sharks worked better so they emphasized people being eaten over character development and… well, there you go.
I’ve noticed several people mention that they liked Jones’ early focus on Banner. Besides the meditation (which I agree was a novel development), can anyone point to one instance of actual character development anywhere in Jones’ run? I don’t mean what he did — that he sleeps with a lot of women or is on the run or what have you — but some indication of or insight into Banner as a character?
I can deal with not having a lot of Hulk or with a horror focus to the title. The approach doesn’t put me off, but the execution certainly does.
Best,
Deron
What’s old is new. Did anyone else ever notice that during PAD 12 year run on the Hulk that the Hulk was intelligent (not to mention down right crafty) for well, 12 years. But if during those 12 years if you asked the average person on the street or even most comic readers to do a quick impression of the Hulk 9 out of 10 times you would have gotten “Rrrrrr Hulk smash!” as a reply. I always thought that was pretty amazing, especially considering PAD’s Hulk is probably the first Hulk alot of younger readers ever encountered. As for Bruce Jones’ run on the Hulk, If you’re going to write a book called “The Incredible Hulk” there two things you really should keep in mind. One, you need the Hulk and two, he should be incredible.
I bought the 25 cent issue and thought that Jones did a good job of making it seem like more was going on then actually was. The rest of the arc I just read at the comic store. I can’t believe it took 5 issues to tell this story. It could have been done in 2, 3 issues tops.
I only buy the comic anymore because it’s a habit and I don’t want to break my run, even if Marvel tried it’s best to make me do so with all the renumbering. I started reading just before you came on the title, Mr. David, and you made it one of my favorite comics of all time. Some of the writers since I’ve liked, others I haven’t, but the current run just leaves me scratching my head at just what in the hëll they are thinking taking it that way. It’s not just the Hulk, though, 90% of the Marvel titles have gone that way for me. I blame Jemas and Quesada, since I noticed things starting to f*** up around the time they came around, and they just seem to keep heading that way more and more. I don’t know how long I’m still gonna be reading any Marvels, runs be dámņëd.
On Banner’s characterization:
Jones himself has said that Banner is supposed to be a sort of Everyman, and Everymen tend to be a little light on the characterization. All I really know about his Banner is that he’s a good guy struggling to keep control. In earlier arcs, Banner interacted with ordinary people more, and I feel that developed his character more than the current arcs have. It might have been Romita Jr.’s artwork, but I could really feel the weight of responsibility on Banner’s shoulders in those early stories.
Kaare Andrews has made a significant contribution to the popularity of Incredible Hulk It’ll be interesting to see how well the title sells now that he’s gone, but I’m convinced many people began reading Hulk because of those cool covers.
Like some sort of geek analog to Tim Burton’s Beetlejuice, the Ain’t-It-Cool-News comic crew will appear if mentioned too often, and so it is that I – one of the contributors – have been summoned!
Our group’s collective take on Bruce Jones’ INCREDIBLE HULK (generally speaking that is – after all, we’re made up of ten different reviewers) is that it began with much promise but ended up spiralling down the toilet of self-indulgence. Our current column (see link) features what I found to be a very entertaining rant against issue #59, but I think my favorite evisceration of the Jones run came when a different AICN reviewer reviewed issue #52 some months back. Went a little something like this (warning: swears ahead!):
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INCREDIBLE HULK #52
Written by Bruce Jones
Art by Mike Deodato Jr.
Published by Marvel Comics
A Jon Quixote Review
YOU WOULDN’T LIKE ME WHEN I’M ANGRY
Let’s get this out of the way. I am sad to write this review. I thought the “new” direction for the Hulk was a great idea. To incorporate elements of the beloved television show and to use a Bruce-the-Shark approach to depicting the Hulk were excellent ideas. Even if they weren’t, this is not about premise.
This is about execution. And The Incredible Hulk is now a God-awful comic book. It is irritating and inane and incompetent and at least a half dozen other I-words, the best being inexcusable. About as inexcusable as I can imagine a professional comic book being.
Let’s review:
THE CLIFFHANGER
The last issue ended on a cliffhanger. The Hulk confronting the woman who had just drugged and betrayed his alter ego. The payoff: zero. The Hulk grabs her, sniffs her and the next thing you know he’s back as Bruce Banner, dozing outside. What the hëll? Was there some random Hulk quota that I wasn’t aware about? A memo from Quesada? “Jesus, Jones, the fans are pretty pìššëd over that double-sized issue we dinged them for where half the pages were devoted to showing the bad guys walking to the other bad guy. Throw the green guy in for a couple panels, wouldja?”
It’s a false cliffhanger, more wasted pages for what is already the most horribly paced comic in the Marvel stable. An arbitrary occurrence that had nothing to do with the plot, and was designed to do nothing but dupe the audience into buying the next issue.
That’s irritating.
THE CONSPIRACY
Here’s a story that just came off a conspiracy so thick that it required an entire issue of a bad guy explaining what had been happening for the past year. Of course, it still didn’t resolve anything, so the conspiracy continues.
I don’t know who anybody here is. I don’t know the motivation for their actions or what side anybody’s on. Where they come from? What they’re doing? What their fûçkìņg names are? That’s okay for a while, as long as information is flowing forth, questions are being answered, and the secrets are there for a reason. But more and more “mystery” is being piled on this already convoluted premise, and new faces are showing up for what seems to be the sole purpose of adding to the aura of confusion. It’s like I’m in TV Hëll and all the channels are showing the final episode of X-Files.
And the manner in which this “conspiracy” is progressing? Faceless black-op non-personalities wandering through a town, walking into establishments where the employees just happen to be other faceless black-op non-personalities whose only characterization seems to be a preternatural ability to choose their cover identities (don’t worry 99, once the Kaos agent kills all these people, he’ll walk right the bar where you’ll be working as a waitress.).
That’s inane.
THE PROTAGONIST
Hey, remember when Bruce Banner actually used to be smarter than the Hulk? When it would take more than a piece of ášš for him to not see through a woman who walks into the shower to GIVE HIM A PILL? C’mon, Jones! You’re imaginative enough to create an entire town where half the residents seem to be secret agents operating in deep cover and you can’t come up with a way to drug Banner without turning him into a complete, utter retard? And then have him tell all his secrets to this girl he just met, when he woke up outside, dazed, after she fed him a pill? Doesn’t he read Daredevil?
Even if, in the future, Jones comes up with a magical explanation for Bruce’s sudden bout of moronitis, it’s too late. To turn a long-standing character like Bruce Banner, a character who for over 40 years has been defined by his intelligence and level-headedness, into such a complete idiot for this long, a switch like that would come across as contrived and hollow. No, what Jones is doing is having his characters act dumb – and not just dumb, but out-of-character dumb – simply because it’s the easiest way for him to advance his poorly thought-out plot. It’s the telltale sign of a hack – it shows up in movies all the time, where characters are too stupid to go to the police or tell the truth simply because it would wrap up the story too quickly.
That’s incompetent.
THE STORY
Banner, our main character, starts the issue drugged. He ends the issue drugged. In 22 pages the only thing he actually does is wake up and provide some exposition (although pity the poor sod who walks into the middle of this ‘arc’).
Those ads that hyped the Return of the Abomination? He’s still in his cell, waiting, doing nothing. The femme fatale Nadia? She’s still somewhat reluctantly carrying on her mission, whatever that may be.
No, the action in the story is carried out by one of those faceless non-characters. This non-character started the issue with a computer disk. He fights another non-character, kills him, and at the end of the comic, still has the disk. In between, we learn that the disk contains footage of a face transplant.
So Bruce is still stuck in the status quo established in the last issue. The Abomination hasn’t done anything. Nadia hasn’t done anything. And the MacGuffin is still in the hands of the person who had it at the beginning of the story. In 22 pages, all we really learn is that someone had a face transplant. Oh and that the identity of Mr. Blue might be revealed in the next issue (but don’t hold your breath – we’ve just established Mr. Jones’s track record on cliffhangers). So other than a tiny tidbit of information that really doesn’t mean much to us yet, we’ve just experienced 22 pages of treading water.
That’s inexcusable.
Shame on Bruce Jones for pulling this šhìŧ. Shame on him for picking our pockets like this. Shame on Marvel for letting him get away with it. And shame on anybody who recognizes this šhìŧ for what it is and still buys the next issue. If anyone thinks I’m going to stick around…
That’s fûçkìņg insane.
I liked the art.
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Harsh review, but pretty on-target I think.
Incidentally, our latest column features a review of FALLEN ANGEL #2 (see link). We’re not always evil. Just sometimes.
-Cormorant
I have liked the Jones run on the Hulk, even though I haven’t purchased an issue. I mostly collect DCs, and because of the prices these days, I like to test things out before I read them. So once in a while, I go to the local Borders and plunk down in a couch with a few bound collections. Well I read the first few Hulks and found that in that format, they were pretty darn good, but I realized that having to read that same material over a 6 month period would be glacial. I think I also read about 16 issues in a little less than an hour and figured that buying the monthly book just wasn’t worth my while.
After PAD left the title, the Hulk only became readable again after Jones took over.
That’s reason enough to think it’s hot snot.
It was at first, anyway. I don’t read it anymore…which nothing to do with the perceived quality of the book. I can only spend so much on comics every month, after all.
Instead of a 4 page post, I’ll sum it up succinctly:
Jones’ HULK is truer to the spirit of what the Hulk is supposed to be.
I enjoyed most of PAD’s HULK run (personally, I wish you would’ve left a bit earlier, with momentum) but I had many many friends who HATED it because they could never get into Hulk as a pseudo-comedy book nor wrap their brain around the smart-Hulk concept.
Jones’ has stripped the title down to its basics and built it up from there. It is thus truer in spirit than other incarnations.
And yeah, the pacing is slow..but that’s EVERY Marvel comic nowadays. Everybody knows Jemas told the writers he wanted long arcs so he could publish tpb’s. I actually like it..instead of 15 minutes and 1/4 of a story once a month, I get a complete story in a nice collated book and only have to go to the comic shop once every 2-3 months.
Best–Chris
Jones truer to the spirit of the Hulk than PAD?
PAD’s Hulk was all about a man who was actually struggling with the monster within.
When PAD took over, Banner and the Hulk were constantly at odds. There’s a very good scene where Bruce was trying to rescue Betty only to have night fall and trigger his transformation into the Hulk. Bruce laments, “If [the Hulk is] the hero, who am I?” There was conflict.
When the Hulk took the identity of Mr. Fixit, Banner’s return threatened the Hulk’s new life. A role reversal. Remember when Banner saw what the Hulk had written on the mirror: “Screw this up and I’ll kill you.” Banner’s reaction: “That was your first mistake. You let me know how much this means to you.” Conflict between the two.
Even with his merged Hulk, PAD established early on–the first issue, in fact–that all was not as well as it seemed. Shortly after his first appearance, the merged Hulk was prophesied to become insane so you knew things were going to go downhill. He lost control and fell into his old “Hulk Smash” persona, supposedly killing the Leader and (unknowingly) the zombified General Ross. Because of that and his recent meeting with the Maestro, his mind created a failsafe so that when he lost control again he reverted to human form in which he could do little harm. Conflict.
Yes, there were jokes throughout PAD’s run. But there was conflict and plot progression. And–as horrible word as this appears to be at Marvel these days–continuity. Characters acted in-character.
Jones’ Hulk does not have any obvious conflict. Sure, Banner says he fears losing control… but has he shown it? He seems to have the Hulk fully in control. He transforms when he wants to and is even able to use a (seemingly large) portion of the Hulk’s strength while in human form.
Banner is horribly out-of-character. He sleeps with Nadia b/c she took off her clothes? So much for the dead wife, huh? He’s not the least suspicious of a woman walking into the shower and giving him vitamins??
The Hulk is horribly out-of-character. A woman slaps him so he turns back into Banner? Wait… I thought the Hulk was a creature of rage? Isn’t Jones supposed to be “truer to the spirit of the Hulk?”
Don’t get me started on the Absorbing Man and Abomination. Ditto for the blatant continuity blunders.
Heh! What the hëll is wrong with you people???
Nadia is an uber-hot blonde and Banner’s a Bookworm-geekish shy guy. Hello!! He hadn’t been laid in how long???
Perhaps some people aren’t led around by hormones.
Nadia is the wife of Emil Blonsky. Bruce Banner has met Nadia so he would know that. He also arranged to have footage of Emil and Nadia’s farewell played endlessly as torture for the Abomination.
So even if you subscribe to the idea of Banner sleeping with a woman on the night they meet–uh-huh, that’s in character–how do you explain not recognizing Nadia?
Oh and wait… Bruce Banner is a “bookworm-geekish shy guy” who had a girlfriend remark that he would hardly even touch her after they’d been dating for months…
I find HULK a tense, drawn out thriller. It’s pace appeals to me. I’m reading it in trades, which might help. but I’ve found it a gripping drama.
I don’t mind if the Hulk’s not on panel.
I think that you should look at the Hulk popularity issue in this way PAD:
Inertia…
Many of the Marvel and DC books come with a built in audience and this group of comic geeks (myself included)will stay with a book thru thick and thin (both the good and bad story arcs.) I love your work but there was a slow time with the Joe Fixit story arc but I held on for the long haul.
I don’t believe with all the hype around the HULK movie and video game that even a bad run of Hulk comics is going to kill this franchise.
Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.
Regards:
Warren S. Jones III