Kath and I saw “X-Men II” today and, yes, it’s that rare animal: A sequel better than the original. It’s no longer the “Wolverine and a Buncha Guys” show. This time around, we get a real sense of the true emotional depth and breadth of the Marvel Mutantverse. From the pure “Cabaret”-esque showmanship of Nightcrawler to the ticking timebomb of Pyro, to the sure-to-provoke-cheers cameos of Colossus and Hank McCoy, this one’s got it all.
And more than anything, it has real-world resonance. There are some who have called being a Mutant a metaphor for being gay. Never seemed more convincing a take than when one teen mutant “comes out” to his family. And then, of course, there’s the concept of curtailing freedoms, midnight raids, a police state…all in the name of security. However much it was featured in the first film, it seemed more abstract; now it sends chills down your spine. Unless, of course, you’re one of those who cheers the loss of personal liberty in the name of “security.” Then…well, I’m not sure.
There’s many “little” moments, including a devil-may-care encounter between Mystique and some pursuing soldiers, and–oh yes–Cyclop’s part. Easily the X-Man least served by the script, he disappears…as they said in “Shakespeare in Love”–for the length of a bible. Storm, however, has a better wig and appears to have abandoned the arch delivery of the first film. The way she was talking this time out, she could have sold the “What happens to toads when they’re struck by lightning” line.
Film did have some pacing problems, plus I kept waiting to check in on a group of fugitive mutants led by Colossus. Odd to say that the film seemed long and yet they could have added at least half an hour to it with an entire additional storyline.
Great stuff.
Talk amongst yourselves.
PAD
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Peter, can’t I read a comic movie review with out you bashing Bush? What’s next Bush bashing in every comic, novel, and blog post you write? You sound bitter.
I never mentioned Bush. I talked about the curtailing of liberties. If the curtailing of liberties automatically brings Bush to your mind, that’s your problem, not mine.
And if you think that I’m the only person to observe the real-world resonance, think again.
From EW: (William Stryker)–whom actor Brian Cox says he played as “a director of homeland security”–also brought a rather topical dimension to the fantastical proceedings: He is, after all, a right-wing autocrat who capitalizes on the hysteria following a terrorist attack to suspend civil liberties and push a radical agenda.
And I didn’t even read that until after my blog entry.
So, y’know, you might want to ratchet back the knee-jerk support of Bush just a few notches.
PAD
I caught the Franklin Richards thing too.
I’m not giving anything away here, but am I the only one who watched Wolverine walking through the snow and ice and wanted him to find the Fortress of Solitude? He walks in, Superman’s there in a bathrobe and asks if he’s the new chinese food delivery guy, Wolverine leaves.
Comedy ensues.
Interesting comments, showing the high calibre of readers on this site. I was getting pretty tired of other discussions that pretty much boiled down to ‘I thought(Fill in the appropriate X-Man here) rocks/rules!’ or the same followed by ‘…sucks!’
I suppose my feelings about X2 are not too dissimilar to the original: I loved it while sitting in the theater, but once the adrenalin rush wore off, the flaws became more apparent. In the interest of full disclosure, I should admit to being an X-Men fan for four decades, since the original team was fighting mutants like The Blob, who was well, a fat guy, and Unus, who had a force field so that, well, he couldn’t be touched. Okay, so we were all innocent back then. I can also remember plunking down fifty cents I think for the Giant Size X-Men that introduced the new team, still IMHO is still one of the best-drawn Marvel books ever. I mention all of this to demonstrate my love for the characters.
With both X-Men and X2, I was of two minds. On the one hand, I’m glad when Singer and company make an effort to observe the original continuity, but I’m also enough of a realist not to sweat it when they make changes that are necessary for the big screen. Would I like to see Bobby Drake ice up just once? Sure, but I’m not going to sweat the small stuff. It’s pretty much the bigger strokes that make or break a movie. In this case, X2 was badly paced. There are also far too many characters, some of whom would inexplicably vanish from the storyline for long periods of time. Cyclops is basically the field leader, so why does he suddenly disappear? Rogue is hugely wasted, as is Nightcrawler, as is Xavier. There’s just not enough screen time to go around.
And I know it sounds nit-picky when we’re talking about a story with super-powered mutants, but can we at least observe a few basic scientific rules, like gravity? Thanks to Tom G who took issue earlier with the scene in which Nightcrawler rescues Rogue with a mid-air teleport? I won’t quibble with the line-of-sight principal of teleporting, but what happens to the velocity? Wouldn’t they just plunge through the bottom of the plane? And I’m not much of a metallurgist, but the bit with the adamantium pump bit made no sense.
Okay, the good stuff. Colussus armouring up for the first time gave me a chill. Magneto using a handful of ball bearings to break out of jail. The entire school invasion sequence. And Nightcrawler’s attack on the Oval Office, which is simply breath-taking from start to finish. If the entire film had been that good, the ushers would have been scraping me off the floor along with rancid bit of popcorn.
And finally, is it just my opinion, or is Halle Berry really quite dreadful in this film? They’ve dropped her dreadful accent from the first film, but she’s now lost any vestige of being the ‘African goddess’ of the comic books. I really don’t see any of the talent that won her an Oscar last year, so when contract negotiations get started for X3 and Berry asks for a truckload of money, I hope the producers either drop the character or recast with a better actress, at least one who can buy into the very unusual tone that this kind of role requires. I know I’m going to be slaughtered for the above, but so be it.
And speaking of X3, it’s obvious that we’re being prepped for a Phoenix/Dark Phoenix storyline, but I wouldn’t mind if they put it on the shelf for a fourth film. In the meantime, give us a Sentinels story. Lots of groovy-looking CG robots that won’t cost as much as certain actor’s multi-million dollar salary demands, an enemy that our heroes can really cut loose on without getting a ‘R’ rating, and more importantly, a storyline that can bring in both the X-Men, the Brotherhood, and just about any mutants you want to see. It ain’t gonna happen, but dámņ, it would make one hëll of a movie.
Luigi Novi: Mystique can infiltrate just about ANYWHERE, and since Magneto is allowed visitors, she could easily free him herself, perhaps as Senator Kelly.
OrlandoT: Yes, but what good will it do her to visit Magneto if she would be scanned for any form of metal she’d try to contraband?
Luigi Novi: Who says she’d have to have metal on her? She can impersonate Senator Kelly or Professor Xavier, and then trash all the guards and use their handprints/retinal patterns to get to Magneto.
OrlandoT: My impression was that Wolverine thought, when he saw the guys sneaking with guns that they were Stryker’s troops. By the time he figured out they were cops, they had already seen the claws.
Luigi Novi: I can see no reason for him to have thought that. They were dressed as cops, not Stryker’s men, and would’ve had scents on them that Wolvie would’ve recognized from the mansion invaders if they had interacted with Stryker or the other soldiers. If Wolvie thought they were Stryker’s, he’d have attacked them and killed them, even if they were pointing guns at him and Bobby and Rogue, just as he did in the mansion. He didn’t, because he knew they were cops, and didn’t want to attack cops doing their job who were misled by Bobby’s brother.
OrlandoT: It was established in the film that while Stryker hated mutants, he didn’t mind using them. She also had the control “patch” that both Nightcrawler and Cyclops had.
Luigi Novi: Which allows Stryker to control them. I recall no mention that it protected them from psychic attack. Did they actually say that?
OrlandoT: I figure that the healing factor and her adamantium skeleton made the scene possible.
Luigi Novi: First, what does an adamantium skeleton have to do with protecting her inner organs? The original point is still there. Molten metal would instantly destroy her entire midsection from the inside out. It can’t travel up an digestive or circulatory tract up to her face, because it would destroy any such tracts it came into contact with, and if it did manage to travel up to her head, would destroy her face as it seeped out of it. A
Second, I don’t recall any mention of her having a healing factor. Even if she had one, and it protected all her inner organs, then it should not have ended up killing her.
Darren J. Hudak: I have two cats one of them likes to drink grape juice, lemonaid, coffee, (yes coffee) and eats chocolate Ice Cream, the other cat doesn’t go near any of these things.
Luigi Novi: I stand corrected regarding the coffee. 🙂
(But I’m not surprised that your cat eats ice cream, because the primary ingredient in ice cream is milk, which as I said, cats do drink. My cat Elsa has eaten ice cream at least once.)
John DiBello: I haven’t read “God Loves, Man Kills,” in ages, but I remember a scene with blood coming out of someone’s nose and they realize “Oh my God! I’m a mutant!” Was that Stryker in the GN or was that an aide…I just can’t remember…
Luigi Novi: That was Stryker’s daughter. He killed her when he saw that she was a mutant.
Kathleen David: It was a Senator that was behind the Mutant Registration Act.
Luigi Novi: The person bleeding wasn’t Stryker in GLMK, but his daughter. And while I recall Stryker as a priest, I don’t recall him being a senator too.
And I hope everything is well with Caroline, Kathleen. 🙂
Aflredo Tarancon: I think that the reason the jet fails is Jean itself. all the sequence reminded me of the first scene in the musem when she loses control of her powers for a moment, provoking a disfunction in all the tvs from the museum. It’s the same that happens in the jet. Once she gets out of the jet, the energy comes back.
Luigi Novi: Thanks, Alfredo. The connection between the museum scene in the beginning and the end wasn’t clear to me.
I like the idea that Jean was actually causing the jet to lose power, hence her having to exit so she could get it working again
Also, it kinda had been bugging me a little bit that Bobby never ‘iced-up’ in the film – until the flood scene. At that point, I could buy it – if he doesn’t have enough power to stop the flood himself (or at least create a large enough ‘ice wedge’ around the jet to protect it from the water), then sure, he doesn’t have the power to ‘ice-up’. It just seemed like a good power indicator.
(of course, not having Bobby do the ice-form thing means there is no visual conflict with the 3 or 4 seconds of Colossus! Ice-blue and Steel-blue can conflict I suppose)
(oh, and I’m kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but I really liked that the Blackbird this time around was REALLY a Blackbird! I did like the jet in the first film, but I much prefer it looking more like the comic version)
Definitely a DVD purchase (if only for the computer screens and reports on desks!
…oh, and one last point
I buy fully that Stryker was unconcerned about Xavier killing Deathstrike along with all the other mutants. I’m sure he has Deathstrike around mostly for anti-Mutant actions, and with the Mutant threat neutralized, she becomes somewhat supurfluous…or at least expendable.
Yeah, Stryker seems to fully buy into the ‘you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs’ school of thought.
Deathstrike did have a healing factor — the cuts on her face vanish during her fight with Wolverine. Theory below (contains spoilers):
As for how she was dispatched, maybe her body was healing from the damage caused by the liquid adamantium, but it reached her brain or spinal cord and then overwhelmed her healing factor. (Killing brain cells faster than they could regenerate?)
One more thing … when I saw it the first time, I thought that Sgt. Lyman, Stryker’s main soldier, looked mighty darn familiar. Turns out he was played by Peter Wingfield, who played the immortal Methos (one of my favorite supporting characters) on Highlander: The Series.
The first time I saw it (before work) at noon I noticed Remy’s and Franklins name. The second time (After work) at 11;30 I noticed Jamie Madrox and a Maximoff and folders called Muir Island and Omega Red.
As Far as why Mystique couldn’t rescue Mags herself: No one said they were only checking for metal. After all, if they went through all the trouble of making that glass cell and keeping files on so many mutants, I’m sure they knew that Mystique and Magneto were partners and would have prepared for her.
And wveryone seems to like the same 5 scenes. Another one on my list is the small confrontation between Rouge and Magneto with Mystique laughing in the backround. M&M were so much cooler than the fisrt movie and Ian Mckellan has to be the luckiest actor since Harrison Ford landed Han Solo and Indiana Jones. Can’t wait for Return of the king. More IAN!!!
As for this being inspired by GLMK, didn’t Singer say that was untrue? It seems to me that Singer just really likes to make references to well known AND obscure X-characters. He could have just as easily called him Camoran Hodge.
Question: Who was that kid watching T.V.? He reminded me of Taki from X-Terminators without the wheelchair.
And Finally, Everyone keeps mentioning Collosus but none mentioned: SPOILER……….
Siryn. She was a nice touch
Ian Mckellan has to be the luckiest actor since Harrison Ford landed Han Solo and Indiana Jones. Can’t wait for Return of the king. More IAN!!!
Ian McKellan is indeed one of the luckiest & most talented actors around. I’ve been a big fan of his since his film version of Richard III a few years ago. His Gandalf is absolutely fantastic. For those interested in his other work I suggest his website http://www.mckellan.com/
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I loved Siryn’s appearance too. As powerful as her cry was though I wouldn’t have thought that the soldier in the room could stay conscious. Oh well, just a small quibble.
Fazhoul
Funny, when PAD talked about sacrificing personal liberty in the name of security, I thought he was referring to gun control advocates who take every tragedy in America as an opportunity to trash the Second Amendment. Or possibly he was referring to one of the last acts of Congress in 1994 before turning leadership over to the Republicans, when they required communications lines to support vastly increased numbers of wiretaps. Or maybe he was referring to the speech codes being implemented across college campuses to prevent ideas that might offend people from being expressed.
Nah, he was probably talking about Bush and Ashcroft. That’s fine, but I wish those on the left who support personal liberty would stop acting like it is something that only happens in Republican administrations. Maybe then they would find common ground with those of us on the right who support personal liberty.
After all, it was Benjamin Franklin who said that those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
(Oh, and I remember a movie critic for Newsday who seemed to relate everything to the “despair of the Reagan years”, or something like that. I hardly think the opinions of an entertainment reporter strengthen anybody’s case.)
Planning on seeing the movie today, by the way.
Alfredo Tarancon posted:
…but then we see the presindent, the camera upside down. and, IMHO, his expresion is more of relief than pain.
Yeah, I thought so, too. But was I the only one who thought… “So… Monica’s under this president’s desk, too?”
I loved how much fun Magneto and Mystique seemed to be having. These two characters seemed far more improved from movie to movie than even Storm.
They were definitely scene stealers.
I noticed there was no mention of Nightcrawler being Mystique’s son.
And Wolverine’s “Save it” line in this one was almost as good as “You’re a dìçk” in the last one.
Luigi Novi: Who says she’d have to have metal on her? She can impersonate Senator Kelly or Professor Xavier, and then trash all the guards and use their handprints/retinal patterns to get to Magneto
Orlando T: She could probably pull that off, but why risk it. The best way is to get metal in the hands of magneto as soon as possible. In an instalation such as Magneto’s cage, there’s bound to be cameras monitoring the guards’ station. I’m sure they’d have some form of defense mechanism (like the gas that knocked out Xavier) in case some mutant tried to free Magneto.
Luigi Novi: I can see no reason for him to have thought that. They were dressed as cops, not Stryker’s men, and would’ve had scents on them that Wolvie would’ve recognized from the mansion invaders if they had interacted with Stryker or the other soldiers. If Wolvie thought they were Stryker’s, he’d have attacked them and killed them, even if they were pointing guns at him and Bobby and Rogue, just as he did in the mansion. He didn’t, because he knew they were cops, and didn’t want to attack cops doing their job who were misled by Bobby’s brother.
Orlando T: (I’ve definately have to see this movie again!)My impression was that Wolvie was on edge (The cat scene is an indication of that) He popped his claws as soon as he saw men with guns sneaking into the house. By the time they got close enough it was too late.
Luigi Novi: Which allows Stryker to control them. I recall no mention that it protected them from psychic attack. Did they actually say that?
Orlando T:Not that I recall. Thing is Stryker was never shown to be loyal to Deathstrike. I don’t think he cared that She would get zapped too.
Luigi Novi: First, what does an adamantium skeleton have to do with protecting her inner organs? The original point is still there. Molten metal would instantly destroy her entire midsection from the inside out. It can’t travel up an digestive or circulatory tract up to her face, because it would destroy any such tracts it came into contact with, and if it did manage to travel up to her head, would destroy her face as it seeped out of it.
Her adamantium would keep her body intact. But you might be right.
Second, I don’t recall any mention of her having a healing factor. Even if she had one, and it protected all her inner organs, then it should not have ended up killing her.
We saw her cuts heal just after wolverine gutted her. An no she would not be alive because even if her healing factor restored her organs, she still had all that adamantium inside of her. How can she even catch a breath with her lungs filled with metal?
Aflredo Tarancon: I think that the reason the jet fails is Jean itself. all the sequence reminded me of the first scene in the musem when she loses control of her powers for a moment, provoking a disfunction in all the tvs from the museum. It’s the same that happens in the jet. Once she gets out of the jet, the energy comes back.
That’s a great explanation.
Hello Peter! I’m a big fan of your Hulk and CM works. Consistently terrific writing on both titles (moreso on the CM relaunch)! Now for some thoughts on X2 I simply have to get out of my system…
I watched the movie last night with my wife. Now I’m a big Uncanny X-Men fan from the old days (the 80’s in particular): I have been weaned on your basic Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne/Austing/Paul Smith/JRJR/Art Adams (used sparingly)/(early) Silvestri/(Marvel breakout era/X-Men relaunch) Jim Lee runs of merry mutants’ comics. You could probably say that I’m excited as Hel in seeeing X2. Unfortunately, my wife liked the first one better, she found X2 story hard to follow, with so many things going-on at the same time. But not me…!
Now the film is not perfect: there are portions where I was thinking “Common, something happen already!”. However, when the movie was running on all cylinders, now that’s when X2 really sparkles and leaves the first movie in the dust! As an 80’s X-fan I think X2 is most definitely a (fanboy) dream come true!!! So many scenes harken back to what I personally consider (pardon to Mr. Morrison) the “golden age” of the children of the atom. Let me break it down for you all…:
1. How many times have I imagined how that “Wolverine Alone” issue would look like if it were a movie? Well X2’s got it on film! Wolverine cut-loose! Stryker’s goon might as well have dressed up as Hellfire Club flunkies…Xtremely cool! (though maybe quite too violent for the children watching…ack!)
2. >>> BAMF <<< Nuff said!
3. Colossus armoring up! tougher than (speeding) bullets! Plus the scene where Peter was carrying the kid in his arm seem a frame right out of the comic book. Reminds me of Mutant Massacre/Inferno.
4. “God Loves Man Kills” parallels: Stryker-named baddie bent on annihilating mutantkind, Stryker wife explained to have died because of mutant son (in the Graphic Novel: Stryker killed her and their mutant son; in Movie: she committed suicide), X-men mansion security compromised, mutants ambushed on school premises by gun-toting baddies, Prof X used as the means to carrying out Stryker’s plans, Magneto interfering carrying out of said plans…simply wonderful! The writers picked a great material for the movie to be even “loosely-based” upon!
5. Mystique disguising as Jean Grey to get it on with Wolverine = Wolverine #51 by Larry Hama/Andy Kubert. Kinky!
6. Magneto pulling the iron contents of the security guard’s blood reminds me of the former pulling the adamantium out of Wolvie’s bones in X-Men #25 as drawn by Andy Kubert. Terrifying!
7. Magneto using 2 itsy-bitsy iron balls to break out of prison was a cool/magnificent scene. Plus, he has to ride on a circular iron thingie, makes me wish for a Silver Surfer movie!
8. Prof X freezing everyone in sight via mind control! Storm whipping up a couple of tornadoes to lose the trailing fighter jets! Jean Grey telekinetically exploding a missile! Magnus suspending the blackbird on the air! Iceman breathing into Wolvie’s soda! = Wonderful display of powers for x-fans and the uninitiated alike!
9. The blackbird chase scene with Ororo at the controls makes me wish she was being chased by an Omega-Hunter Series Sentinel instead of some fighter jets…I love that Uncanny 202 issue by JRJR!
10. The Wolverine/Lady Deathstrike battle was quite bloody and violent and at times reminds me of Barry Windsor-Smith’s Uncanny #205. We got your blood-and-guts actione right here kiddies! (That is in both X2, and the said comic!)
11. Spot-on characterization! Amazing! Nightcrawler praying the rosary and reciting Psalm 23 was simply precious! Plus, Wolverine unbound! I could probably be wetting in my pants if I had the mind to…
12. The Weapon X flashbacks is a nice tip of the hat to Marvel’s Weapon X serial (by BWS) and the Wolverine issues (by Hama) in the early 90’s!
13. Mystique impersonating Sen. Robert Kelly is akin to Mystique’s posing as government agent Raven Darkholme from the JRJR years of the Uncanny X-Men. Another nice memory.
14. Some more true-to-comic book scenes: Scott escorting/wheeling in the Professor, the Wolvie/Cyclops rivalry, Jean Grey and Ororo out on a mission (they’re best friends!!!), the team scattered in different places dealing with different crises…I’ve read them before and X2 simply magnified joy of re-visiting old friend in their old familiar situations!
15. And lastly (whew!), the best thing I liked about the movie as the twist on Jean sacrificing herself to get the blackbird out of the ground and ensure here friends’ safety, as opposed to Uncanny X-Men #101 where our heroine sacrified herself by piloting their doomed space shuttle back to earth (and thereby ensuring her friends’ safety)! The fact that X2 had her “Phoenix”-ing up in the climax (and in some scenes before) was an added bonus/teaser for use x-fans! Simply Marvelous!!!
X2 is a fine acted vehicle for Hugh Jackman and company. I agree with PAD that it may have some pacing problems. However, the highlights (and special effects), and the story (lots of subplots) and characterizations (of most x-characters) are worth the price of admission and 2 hours of one’s time. Much better that X-Men I, and not realy the best superhero movie of all time. Maybe X3 (or as I imagine it “X cubed”).
Here’s hoping more screen time for Cyclops (he could probably kick Wolvie’s ášš in his best days, and I’m saying this as one of Wolvie’s staunchest supporter), more Kitty Pryde, more Colossus, more Nightcrawler, a mohawked Storm, Phoenix, Rachel/Hound perhaps (?), some Sentinels, some Hellfire Club for a knockdown, drag-out fight for the ages for “X cubed”.
Bravo muties!
Luigi Novi: Who says she’d have to have metal on her? She can impersonate Senator Kelly or Professor Xavier, and then trash all the guards and use their handprints/retinal patterns to get to Magneto
Orlando T: She could probably pull that off, but why risk it. The best way is to get metal in the hands of magneto as soon as possible. In an instalation such as Magneto’s cage, there’s bound to be cameras monitoring the guards’ station. I’m sure they’d have some form of defense mechanism (like the gas that knocked out Xavier) in case some mutant tried to free Magneto. “
Think SIMPLE, folks. Get someone else to do the dirty work. And….if it fails, you’re not on the spot, you don’t get caught and you can try something else–someone else catches the grief. It’s a SMART use of tactics.
Mystique (as Kelly) earlier in the film asked about getting in to see Magneto and was rebuffed by Stryker. The only reason that Xavier and Scott were able to see Magneto at this time was because it was a trap.
Neil
Jason Tippitt —>One more thing … when I saw it the first time, I thought that Sgt. Lyman, Stryker’s main soldier, looked mighty darn familiar. Turns out he was played by Peter Wingfield, who played the immortal Methos (one of my favorite supporting characters) on Highlander: The Series.
Thanks!
Bob DeGraff :I noticed there was no mention of Nightcrawler being Mystique’s son.
And in fact, when they talk, it seemedd to me that he was flirting with her. That movement of tail…
Storm, mystique…that dude has some needs…
Alfredo Tarancon
Did you just copy and paste the entire message board? Way to kill it. About time for that password feature Peter.
Whoa..that was funky. Seems fine now. Carry on. 🙂
Easter Egg Question:
Anyone catch the name and/or nickname stenciled on one of the jets that’s chasing the Blackbird during the tornado sequence? I could see something was written there, just below the cockpit (as it should be), but wasn’t quick enough to read it.
Is it too geeky to hope it said “Carol “Warbird” Danvers” or even “Michael Rossi”? 🙂
Very much enjoyed the film, pacing problems notwithstanding. (Some of that could have been avoided by having Nightcrawler take refuge in, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore or Richmond instead of in Boston: the timing of Jean and Ororo’s trip back from there after their nighttime encounter somehow having them close by enough to pick up Logan and the kids in a Boston suburbs in the early morning just doesn’t work, given what they’re flying…..)
I agree that Stewart and Marsden were largely and unnecessarily wasted– though I’ve got to give Marsden huge credit for pulling off an essentially believable and almost moving breakdown scene despite that–nice job, indeed.
Final question for the gallery: I seem to recall a line of Xavier’s (“I feel nothing but pity for anyone who goes to that school looking for trouble”) from the previews/traillers for X2, but didn’t hear it in the film. Am I misremembering, or is this another example of something that simply didn’t make the final cut?
The xavier line was from the last scene of the first movie.
Worth Noting.
The movie critic for Artvoice, Buffalo’s arts and culture weekly, wrote the following: “X2 expects that you will remember every detail of its predecessor. I’m aware that there are those who have been reading the comics for years or who have been watching the video and its tie ins multiple times. But if you’re like me, you haven’t given X-Men all that much thought since you saw it three years ago.”
After listing a few things that had totally slipped his mind, he went on to write, “And those were just the things that I eventually figured out. I dont’t mind admitting that half the time I was watching X2, I had no idea what was going on.”
I’m afraid he may be on to something here.
One of the people in the group I attended with wouldn’t know the X-Men from the K-man. She too professed to a hard time following what was going on. She said she struggled just to keep straight what characters had what powers.
It just might be that the world at large, all those insider references flying over their heads, will judge X2 a confusing mishmash.
Fans will dig it. The first weekend grosses are bound to be big. But after that, once word gets around that this is a movie best enjoyed by those steeped in the lore, there’s a good chance that the vast rest of movie going public will stay away.
And if the movie is a bust….? What then of sequeals?
The ‘Maximoff’ reference actually read -‘Maximoff (2)’, refering to both Wanda and Pietro- the children of Magneto.
Would it just be TOO MUCH to bring in Magnetos kids in X3 given that they havent even touched the Mystique/Rouge/Nightcrawler relationship yet?
X1 revealed Mags past in the concentration camps and that he and Xavier were once friends, but nothing of his wife Magda who fled in terror of Mags power while pregnant with twins.
I would like to see this part of Magnetos personality examined, but it would seem unlikely until at least X4 given the probability that X3 will be the Phoenix story.
On the otherhand, Wanda and Pietro are really more Avengers characters now than they ever were X-Men characters so it might not fit into an X-Film, but the Maximoff reference got me thinking about it.
In my above comment I forgot that when I stopped reading X-Comics Pietro was in an X-Group. X-Factor as written by our host Mr. PAD.
I dont know if he is still associated with the X-Men or not because I had to give up comics. Terrible addiction. $200-$300 a month. Ouch! Shoulda went to Schick center…
Nah, he was probably talking about Bush and Ashcroft. That’s fine, but I wish those on the left who support personal liberty would stop acting like it is something that only happens in Republican administrations. Maybe then they would find common ground with those of us on the right who support personal liberty.
Where did I say it only happens in Republican administrations?
You know, you really have to wonder about the mindset. On another thread, I did a lengthy posting over how liberals are just as quick to repress speech as conservatives. I even talked about liberal colleges implementing restrictive speech codes. And you turn around and act as if you’ve made some staggeringly sound point. You haven’t, unless you’re somehow trying to say that since liberals have attempted to repress others, it’s okay if conservatives do as well.
PAD
I just saw the movie for the first time a few hours ago. I like the painstaking attention to detail and nods to the comic book. This should happen more often in comics. One of the people who saw it with me complained bitterly that some things were changed, but some people always complain even when they don’t have a good reason. I think the movie was far better than any comic version of the X-Men, and that is a possible first for comic movies.
I loved the realistic characterization (mostly–except the romances were mostly too workmanlike and hastily rendered) and the mostly intelligent plot. One part about the characterization in this movie that is all too rarely present in comics was the generally realistic portrayal of the normal people. Magneto’s characterization was also excellent, a high point of the movie.
The only major complaints I have is that several pivotal occurrences seemed poorly contrived: the major death (no big spoilers here!), Nightcrawler’s odd capture by the good guys, Pyro’s rampage, etc. Those all appeared to be hastily written and not carefully enough analyzed to see if they made sense in terms of realistic characterization. I’m glad Pyro’s rampage didn’t result in the graphicly horrible injuries that would have normally occurred–there’re kids in the audience. There was probably too much crammed into the movie, which may have led to those problems. I’m tired of speculating about whether there are any messages in this movie about politics and the Bush administration: seldom is a political opinion an intelligently held one. It is better to concentrate on the positives and possibilities in life.
Re: the front porch of the Drake house
Standard “bodyguard” MO, when the folks-with-guns are in front of the protector and the to-be-protected are somewhat behindish, is for the protector to keep looking the gun-holders in the eye(s), stand straight facing the gun, and spread arms out at about shoulder level to obscure as much line-of-sight as possible.
So I automatically figured that Logan was doing just such, trying to shield the three kids with his body; but there was an abrupt noise when he retracted his claws, and an already-nervous police officer reacted instinctively.
Your perception, of course, might widely vary.
In other news, when a certain smoochy-face scene occurred, one very young audience member responded with an echoing “Ewwww!!!”
I hate to be a party pooper here, but is it so that this movie either contains and/or provides a setup for using the Phoenix story in the next sequel?
Well then there you have it, my reason for not wanting to bother about this. I may be in the minority, but I myself HATE the Phoenix story because of the loathsome stereotype it used, depicting a lovely young lady as a planet killer. If it weren’t for the revelation that the Phoenix was a seperate entity, I would never allow that filth into my house. I personally do not consider that good material for a screenplay. >:(
I’m also not happy that Gambit is in it, if he is: for those who’re unfamiliar with the character, well, let me point out that the character is, if anything, not one whom I’d consider heroic. Worst of all, he’s irritating, and he turned Rogue into a hang-on rather than a free-thinker who can handle herself, even if she does have problems with her own powers.
Yeesh. To think that such low-grade elements would make their sorry way into this movie and others. It’s just so unfair.
Saw the movie Friday night. Good. Real Good. Just the novelization of the movie was better. I finished it about 3 days before the movie came out and was really pumped for the movie. One thing it does do is to highlight the places where the movie faulters because of budget/time issues. Of course in the book they are able to give each character more equal time. X-Men 2 is written by long time X-Men writer Chris Claremont (which was the only reason I picked it up). I figured that since Chris Claremont probably knew the characters better than anybody – his novel would be top notch. I wasn’t let down. The ending with Jean is a little different in the novel than the movie, but that is probably due to rewrites and future planned sequels. I am sure Singer and Co already have a direction for X3 in the works.
Also in the book is the Gambit cameo that was cut out of the movie. Gambit in New Orleans playing poker.
Xyon
Funny, I read (skimmed) everyone of the above entries and this is the one that inspired me to respond….
“I myself HATE the Phoenix story because of the loathsome stereotype it used, depicting a lovely young lady as a planet killer.””If it weren’t for the revelation that the Phoenix was a seperate entity, I would never allow that filth into my house.” (A. Green)
My “spider sense” starts to whig a bit when someone uses “filth” to describe a story/plotline. Maybe I don’t exactly understand the point that was being made.
Stereotype? The young lady as a planet killer is a lothesome and all too prevalent stereotype in our culture… ?
“Mankiller” is a common stereotype but rarely “planet killer”. Is having a “lovely young lady” turn evil (power corrupts) offensive as a plotline? I sort of remember Jean Grey at least TWICE sacrificing herself for the greater good and her finding strength and love at the end to overcome the Phoenix power. Sounds like a positive example amid her “fall.”
I always felt Claremont was breaking new, welcome, ground with the Dark Phoenix plotline. I was getting tired of Magneto, Despero, Dr. Doom, Thanos, Darkseid, etc. etc. etc.
I always thought the Claremont/Bryne run was more at the right place at the right time… great art and stories and they took very good chances. Claremont’s magic was incorporating solid sci-fi plots into his story arcs and got people to legitimately care about the characters with the little things (particularly with his portrayal of wolverine’s relationship with the rest of the team… wolverine/cyclops anomosity, drinking and calling Nightcrawler “elf”). While the stories got bloated he nailed the banter and group dynamics.
Claremont is doing under appreciated work on Xtreme and I truely thought his team-up with Salvador Larocco (sp) on their Fantastic Four run was among the best runs on that team (
Did anyone else notice towards the end that the dam seemed to freeze? I have a hunch there was an extra Iceman/Rogue scene in there that was cut out. Bobbie’s freezing of the dámņ gave Rogue the time to pick up the rest of the team in the blackbird. That’s why Icey/Rogue were in costumes at the end — they saved everybody!
Very much liked most of the movie, but the contrived ending setting up the Phoenix storyline was pretty pathetic. Others on this thread have made most of my points already.
But, if Jean was dying and wanted to say goodbye to Scott, don’t you think she would have probably contacted HIS mind directly, and not have gone through Xavier? I thought this was…a bit odd, at best.
This has bugged me from the very first movie: “This is Ororo Monroe, also called Storm. And this this Scott Summers, also called Cyclops. And you have already met Dr. Jean Gray”…’also called…hmmmm…well…Jean Gray. Well, okay. So we didn’t give that a lot of thought.’ Why doesn’t Jean have a codename??? It wouldn’t have to be Marvel Girl like the comics, but, geez, give her something!
And Nightcrawler can’t teleport to any place he can’t see? What! At the first of the movie, he teleported all over the freakin’ place without eye-contact, including when he was finally driven out of the Oval Office.
Internal logic errors really bother me.
After listing a few things that had totally slipped his mind, he went on to write, “And those were just the things that I eventually figured out. I dont’t mind admitting that half the time I was watching X2, I had no idea what was going on.”
I’m afraid he may be on to something here.
I think this really just depends on the viewer. I went with my fiance
**And Nightcrawler can’t teleport to any place he can’t see? What! At the first of the movie, he teleported all over the freakin’ place without eye-contact, including when he was finally driven out of the Oval Office.
Internal logic errors really bother me. **
He only needs eye-contact to make sure he doesn’t teleport into a solid object. Perhaps he made himself familiar with the White House floorplan before the assault?
**And Nightcrawler can’t teleport to any place he can’t see? What! At the first of the movie, he teleported all over the freakin’ place without eye-contact, including when he was finally driven out of the Oval Office.”
I don’t recall their every saying that he needed “eye-contact.” “See” could have meant being able to picture in his mind’s eye, not literally see via line-of-sight. (Just like in the comics, where I seem to recall that he has tested the limits of his ability and found he could teleport at least a mile. Which is to say, a lot farther than he can literally “see.”)
Also, he never said he *can’t* do it, only that if he does, he risks danger. He was under someone else’s influence at the start of the film, and Stryker was probably less concerned about the risks to Kurt’s life than Kurt is himself.
“I may be in the minority, but I myself HATE the Phoenix story because of the loathsome stereotype it used, depicting a lovely young lady as a planet killer.”
***”Lovely young lady as planet killer” isn’t really a stereotype I’m familiar with… might I trouble you for some clarification? Because what you wrote above is simply absurd.
“If it weren’t for the revelation that the Phoenix was a seperate entity, I would never allow that filth into my house.”
***What exactly is the objection here? Presumably you have some problem with the fact that a character committed a mass slaughter, but why does the fact that it was Jean Grey make it “filth”?
***”Lovely young woman.” So, is it the portrayal of a youth as a killer that bothers you? Or that it was a woman? Or that she was “lovely”?
“I personally do not consider that good material for a screenplay.”
It was your basic “power corrupts” theme. Would it have been less “filthy” if Cylops had been corrupted by power? Or Xavier?
Jason
But, if Jean was dying and wanted to say goodbye to Scott, don’t you think she would have probably contacted HIS mind directly, and not have gone through Xavier? I thought this was…a bit odd, at best.
Well, it makes it easier to film Cyke interacting with Xavier than Scott just talking to himself.
BTW, did anyone think that Scott was about to kiss Xavier?
He only needs eye-contact to make sure he doesn’t teleport into a solid object. Perhaps he made himself familiar with the White House floorplan before the assault?
As far as I can recall, he only teleported when the doors were broken.
As for him teleported to Rogue, maybe he did multiple BAMFs to reach her? And as for getting back to X-Jet, he just had to picture the insides of the jet (locking it on, per se).
In the end it’s just a movie.
By Bart:
Stereotype? The young lady as a planet killer is a lothesome and all too prevalent stereotype in our culture… ?
Well I honestly don’t know how often the idea gets used nowadays, although it did get used in a few loathsome movies a few years ago, but if it’s important to know, stereotypes, in a general sense, are or can be offensive, especially racial ones. Take a look at some of the Brothers Grimm fairy tales, or even at some Disney movies like 101 Dalmatians, and you’ll see that they certainly use it.
That’s the problem with such stereotypes, they arose from some of the lower reaches of German culture in example, the Grimm fairy tales included, and while there are always plenty of women on this planet who’ve committed offensive crimes, the stereotypes seen in the Grimm fairy tales take place from a general perspective.
I remember once having argument with a very Orwellian sounding man who – believe it or not – tried to justify stereotypes, even racial ones, because, in his opinion, since they’re fictional, so that supposedly makes them okay. What, and does that make even that offensive depiction in Oliver Twist of Fagin justified? And does that make even the use of the MCU villains in Amazing Spider-Man #36 okay? No way! Just because the characters are fictional doesn’t make them inoffensive, because to say the least, they’re taken from some very exaggerated notions in real life that women are supposedly all wicked, among other such idiocies.
So there you have it, that pretty much sums up what I find wrong with stereotypes.
By William:
…the contrived ending setting up the Phoenix storyline was pretty pathetic. Others on this thread have made most of my points already.
And thanks for making one of mine! Wahoo!
Avi,
I’m not sure I “made” your point about the “lovely young lady as planet killer” being a poor plotline in the X-men. I don’t have a problem with the Phoenix story itself, just the tacked-on way the movie set it up. As pointed out earlier, Storm, Iceman, and even Jean herself had other options to stop/divert the flood than to sacrifice herself. That is what I called “contrived.”
If Jean was going to die saving the others, it should have happened inside the base, or, better yet, in some way that only she could perform, such as stopping Xavier from killing all the mutants/humans (why did Storm get the job of hero? Oscar payment, perhaps??). Jean would have been the logical choice…she even told Storm not to believe her eyes once inside. Jean would have been able see through the illusion and, if necessary, stop the most ‘powerful telepath on earth’ by using the Phoenix power (“dying” in the process).
William: If Jean was going to die saving the others, it should have happened inside the base, or, better yet, in some way that only she could perform
Well, sure, but to do that would deprive the movie franchise of re-creating one of the most memorable scenes in the X-Men canon.
Excellent film! I loved all of the little touches and nods to comic fans.
Easter Egg Spoilers:
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On the computer screens in Stryker’s office the list of mutants also includes X’ian Coy Mahn (Karma).
Also, near the Franklin Richards folder on the other screen there is a folder called Project Wideawake.
There are also cameos by Artie and maybe Leech, but they look different from the comics.
Kitty Pryde looks like she was re-cast from the first film, as does Jubilee.
Also, on the fighter plane, the Pilot’s name is “Raygun” MacNeil(sp?). It was not Carol Danvers as some were speculating. I caught the name on the plane at my second viewing of the film.
Overall, a superior sequel that makes me excited to see X3.
Hmm. Well, a friend of mine made a point to me about X-Men II that I haven’t seen made here, so I’ll bring it up to see what the group thinks of it.
In the first movie, Magneto (sincerely, I think) expresses regret that he has to sacrifice Rogue in order to turn all humans into mutants.
In the second movie, he and Mystique are actively making fun of her when they’re in the Blackbird. It’s at best inconsistent.
The first movie made the point that Magneto’s motivation was the security for ALL mutants.
It makes sense that he’d argue with Wolverine…Wolverine’s abrasive. Rogue, by contrast, is a nice teenage girl. Heck, his little talk (and subsequent actions) with Pyro show that he’s willing to recruit from Xavier’s ranks. Why go out of his way to antagonize someone as potentially useful as Rogue?
Upon reflection, it would have seemed more natural for him to have been uncomfortable around her, or possibly aloof (‘young lady, this is not a tea party we’re involved in. It was regrettable that you were used as you were, but this is war.’). Snickering at her didn’t seem to fit.
On the other hand, I absolutely loved it when he asked Pyro what his REAL name was; it was lifted straight out of the comics, and the delivery was perfect.
Don’t get me wrong…I loved this movie. Just picking nits.
While this subject is going…well, I just went to the website of the Weekly Planet in Tampa, Florida(and wouldn’t you know where they got that kind of a name from), and what in the world…?!?
I think anyone who cares to do so may want to check out this review here. I just can’t believe the analogies that this film makes, or that even the critic himself does. To me at least, it’s very uneasy, and it reminds me of something I once on Salon’s site: a writer to them called an essay there a flawed piece of leftist propaganda, and now, this movie follows up on that. And if so, if you ask me, I think it’s superfluous. Why couldn’t they do something similar to what the British actress Rachel Weisz did?
By that, I mean the fact that she’s come forward and said that she’s proud to be Jewish. It’s a pity that this movie doesn’t do somthing like that, but then, this is Hollywood, and such things are not fashionable in the eyes of the media establishment.
Avi, I still don’t see how the Dark Phoenix story is implying that women are killers. There is one killer in that story, and she’s a female.
But…
1.) She’s been corrupted by power that to all intents and purposes acts as a drug.
2.) She’s also been mentally manipulated by a nasty crew called the Hellfire Club, whose male-female membership ratio is 4 to 1.
3.) Jean Grey still acts heroically throughout at least two thirds of the story.
4.) Numbered among the characters who try to stop Phoenix are… Lilandra; Storm; female members of the Imperial Guard. Moira MacTaggert doesn’t actively help out, though she does contribute some important info as to why Jean’s power is breaking down, and she expresses her concern over it. Which is to say, she’s on the side of the angels.
(The Dark Phoenix arc is also the one in which the X-Men try to recruit two brand-spanking new team members, and they’re both “lovely young women.” Who don’t become planet killers.)
I’m still fascinated by your original post, where you had a problem with “lovely young women” being made into killers.
Would you have still had a problem if Jean Grey had been older? Or less “lovely” (whatever you mean by that)?
Sorry, Avi, but your argument still seems ridiculous. (And for someone who’s so quick to fault artists for perpetuating stereotypes, I’m rather amazed that you’re placing blame squarely on Germans. Did it occur to you, by any chance, that this comes fairly close to stereotyping all Germans as racists?)
“I just can’t believe the analogies that this film makes,”
Avi… have you even SEEN the film?
“By that, I mean the fact that she’s come forward and said that she’s proud to be Jewish. It’s a pity that this movie doesn’t do somthing like that,”
It’s a pity that the movie didn’t come forward and say that it’s proud to be Jewish?
Things:
*In God Loves, Man Kills (and it’s a crime Claremont’s name isn’t in the movie credits), it is Stryker’s assitant (the Deathstrike roll in the movie) who begins bleeding, thus showing she’s a mutant. Stryker then pushes her off the stage, where she falls and breaks her neck.
There is also a Senator (not Kelly, and having nothing to do with the Mutant Reg. Act–which wouldn’t be invented for several years) who begins bleeding and one his aides notices that. It’s not explicitedly stated that he’s a mutant..cuz the book had some subtlelty. *
*I also noticed the bit with the President not seeming to be in pain and figured it was a reference to the Senator in GLMK.
*Nightcrawler teleporting…the floor plans of the White House is hardly confidential, and could easily be provided to Kurt by Stryker.
*Avi–Gambit did nothing to Rogue..it was bad writers/editors that made her into am arm piece for Gambit. And he’s not in the movie anyway.
*All the cameo characters had different actors except for Iceman…Kitty, Jubilee, Colussus and Pyro all had new actors (they made a big deal about hiring the actress for Kitty…but barely used her…weird)
*I really liked how the movie made use of powers..especialy Magneto..it was really impressive.
*It was obviously not liquid iron that Mystique injected in the guard. Liguid iron would boil through a person. It was mercury. “Too much Iron in your blood” was a joke.
*I think the “Mutant gene is passed by the father” is more of a joke from Pyro twisting the knife than scientific fact.
*I hope that whatever the story for the next movie is, the Hellfire Club shows up in all their Claremontian/Byrnish glory.
*Any claims that the movie isn’t based on GLMK is, lets be generous and not call it a lie…are…something (can’t think of somthing other than it being a lie) From Stryker’s name, to the kidnapping of Cyclops and Xavier, to Stryker’s motivation over his son, to using Xavier and Cerebro to kill mutants, to Magneto teaming with the X-Men, to the perhaps mutantness of the President ….
Just one nit-picky point to add: Nightcrawler sees Mystique, presumably the only other blue person he has ever met (we already know that Hank McCoy ain’t blue & fuzzy yet), and he doesn’t bother to inquire if there MIGHT be a connection between them?!? This wouldn’t have taken long—Mystique could have blown him off, or just offered up a couple cryptic words—but it sure would have made sense for him to ASK!! Like I said, though, a small nit-pick. Overall, between X2 on screen and Angel’s climatic battle with Jasmine on television, it was a good week indeed to be a superhero fan…