I’m doing a column on what was the best superhero movie ever made (not counting the serials from the 40s and 50s.)
Any thoughts?
PAD
I’m doing a column on what was the best superhero movie ever made (not counting the serials from the 40s and 50s.)
Any thoughts?
PAD
• 
Everyone has hit at least a few that I would recommend for this category, so I’ll just repeat some here to add to the vote.
Batman – yes, it did start a trend of gloss over substance, but at least it got us away from the “it’s a COMIC book, so it has to be campy FUN” mentality that prevailed to that point in Hollywood. The whole series ended up becoming that in the end, but it was a good start. Also, I agree with an earlier post that Clooney was the perfect Bruce Wayne/Batman . . . just stuck in a horrible movie with a terrible script.
X-Men – proved (with Blade) that the genre can be done seriously with established superhero characters.
Howard the Duck – I’m going to be lynched for this one, but the movie adaptation actually came fairly close to Gerber’s writing in many scenes. People foam at the mouth about it for some reason, but I thought it worked.
Although not exactly “superheroes” in the sense of being modern comic book heroes, I also agree with others that The Shadow and The Phantom were two excellent adaptations of the respective characters. In fact, I would go one better and say that they helped evolve the process from Batman to films like X-Men and Spider-Man. It just goes to show that you can take a fantasy character and not have to treat them like a five-year old’s nightmare or cartoon.
Spider-Man – of course. Great understanding of the characters in this one and could not really be any better than what we got.
As to comic-book-like, I’ve always felt that both Aliens and The Abyss had a comic-book feel to them. I always felt that way about Babylon 5 as well, come to think of it. Unbreakable was perfect until the last three seconds with the text over the freeze-frame. That killed the whole movie for me.
There’s no doubt more, but these are the ones that come to mind readily.
“The Crow” had a similar zeitgeist. I think it would have been a great moody film anyway but there was no avoiding the fact that Brandon Lee had died making the film. Seeing him struggle free from the grave gave me chills that were unmistakably real even though we all wish the circumstances hadn’t been what they were to cause them. It made this story of someone reaching out from beyond the grave for one more mission more poignant than it ever should have been.”
And I agree with this…
Before Brandon died, the concept was to make a horror/super-hero movie… with the concept of Brandon coming back again and again.
When Brandon died, they made it more into a gothic fairy tale… and it worked… people saw it because people were interested in seeing the last work an actor… especially the son of a legend.
If he hadn’t died, it may not have been crap, but it would have been a totally different movie.
Travis
About the X-Men film and it’s holocaust connection…
I think Brian Singer did his homework there. I’ve personally talked to a few holocaust survivors – many wonder why they didn’t do more to resist…but they didn’t.
There seems to be a greater psychological thread at work here – I think it’s related to learned helplessness – where the Jews in the camps were so beaten down emotionally by constant harassment, they were reluctant to raise a finger, or a voice, lest the full force of the Nazi regime be brought down upon them. The overwhelming thought was, “If I keep quiet, maybe I’ll be spared.”
Note that in the scene where kid Magneto bends the gates, the others, who could have come to his aid and overwhelmed the guards, simply stood back and watched. That is the kind of paralyzing fear which gripped the people residing in those camps, such that even one Nazi soldier seemed too much to handle.
Unbreakable- though not about a comic character clearly inspired by comics. Some of the scenes even seem to be framed like comic panels.
The Matrix- Again not a specific comic property but awesome as a film adn a super hero movie
In order:
1. Unbreakable
2. Spider-Man (2002)
3. Superman (1978)
4. X-Men
5. Batman (1989)
6. Batman Returns
7. The Rocketeer
8. Superman II
9. Batman (1966)
10. Daredevil
If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y’know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn’t think a ‘superhero’ movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix.
If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y’know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn’t think a ‘superhero’ movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix.
WOW
Again on the Magneto thread….
It’s pretty clear in the scene, that the young Magneto doesn’t know he’s weilding the power…and that in the movie world, there aren’t super-powered characters running around so no real reason for him to think “Hey, I have super powers”.
I found it a powerful scene, and was quite pleased that it was there, firmly establishing Magneto as Jewish, rather than the lame, in the comics of the time, attempt to retcon him into a more PC gypsy villain (which they also later got rid of).
The comic universes with Superheroes in WW2 are problematic, storywise, because of things like the Holocaust. In DC, like the Golden Age Superman (or post Crisis, Green Lantern as the heavy hitter) and Spectre not stopping it. DC invented the mystic Shield created by the Spear of Destiny (Ostrander’s Spectre series states flat out that the Spectre could sense what was happening, but was unable to get past the barrier)….
It’s something that in WW2 era stories needs to be addressed, as it’s the elephant in the room…but its very difficult to address without seeming to trivialize it.
Y’know, this is hard to say because one person’s opinions differ from those of others.
If I had to pick one, it would have to Superman. Simply because it broke the ice. Other than the serials and the one that spun off from the Batman TV series, people weren’t really making Superhero movies before then.
There are also others that are favorites of mine. Spider-Man, X-Men, The Rocketeer, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mystery Men. I’ve even got a soft spot in my heart for the Generation X TV movie (it was the first time Marvel’s mutants appeared in live action. They also really nailed Jubilee’s personality, which is something the people writing the comics can’t even get a handle on sometimes).
However, I doubt any of those would have been made if Superman weren’t made first.
Avi wrote: “And then, how do you think any Jewish citizen who’d been through the horrors of the Holocaust would feel when they too were largely helpless with no superpowers to help them either?”
You seem to imply here that to understand your argument, one has to put himself in the shoes of a Jew. This “If you’re not Jewish, you can’t understand” argument is just as weak as Pack’s insinuation that your zeal was a result of youth — and thus, by implication, of naivete.
PAD has taken the piss out of the “You can’t understand because you weren’t there” argument in the past, and I think that he had a point. When you say something like, “You can’t understand, because you’re not Jewish/black/a woman,” not only does it imply that you have some sort of exclusive rights to certain feelings, but it also commits a fallacy in implying that all Jews/blacks/women feel the same way. As if a shared experience automatically leads to a single collective opinion about that experience.
(People did this in the Dangerous Curves argument, being offended on behalf of all women in spite of the fact that, as PAD pointed out, a woman had come up with the marketing hook, and another woman had approved it. I know because I was one of the folks who made that error.)
In the present case, you seem to imply that anyone who’s Jewish would find the Holocaust scene in X-Men offensive. This neglects the fact that Bryan Singer, who directed the film, is Jewish. And I don’t think he had a problem with it.
Also, Jason F makes some good points about the psychological aspects of the scene. (Different Jason, by the way… I’m not agreeing with myself here.) His intepretation of the scene punches yet another hole in your oddly non-sequitur notion that the only logical thing to follow the opening scene of X-Men would be Magneto single-handedly demolishing the Nazi regime. Why you fail to see how illogical that idea is within the “world” of the film, I can’t quite figure out.
Jason
Late to the party, as usual.
Best Superhero movie: SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE. Hands down, accept no substitutes.
Why?
Theme. Actually, a few themes, and I don’t mean the John Williams kind. The script had been passed around a bit, but filtered through Tom Mankiewicz artful touch, we not only got a story about duty to oneself versus duty to others (later echoed in Spider-Man), but a neat Christ analogy to boot. Flying back through time? Well, the power of love can cause you to do amazing things.
Dialog. The patter between Lois and Clark is snappy as hëll, the first date between Superman and Lois could not have been more adorable.
Scope. It was a huge epic that spanned from Kansas, to New York (Metropolis), to Southern California, to ANOTHER PLANET ferchrissakes! Really, it’s three movies in one, all of them great.
Cinematography. All the scope was captured brilliantly by one of the best cinematographers of all time, Geoffrey “2001” Unsworth.
Casting. Sure, Christopher Reeve nailed it, but what about Glenn Ford? Jackie Cooper (a real gem of a performance)? Mark McClurg? Valerie Perrine? Brando? Hackman was entertaining, and not far off from the attitude of the sixties Luthor. And yes, even Margot Kidder brought a pluck to the part that was genuinely charming.
Special Effects. Watched it recently, they still hold up remarkably well. Especially in…
The Helicopter Scene. Arguably one of most exhiliarating suspense sequences in movie history (yeah, that’s right), and almost worth the price of admission alone. “You’ve got me?…Who’s got YOU!” was a classic moment in American cinema.
Music. Even John Williams considers it to be some of his best work. I challenge anyone: not only can you hum the theme, but you feel a little more heroic when you do. Admit it.
Durability. The fact we’re still talking about it over 20 years later should tell you something.
A truly remarkable movie, and THE best superhero movie of all time.
Best Comic Movie? Ghost World, with Road To Perdition being a close second.
Best Superhero flick? I’d say The Crow, but Eric Draven isn’t really a hero- revenge isn’t necesarrily heroic as a concept. But The Crow nailed the comic dead on.
I’d say the first Superman, but the time travel ending and “read my mind” has never gone down too well with me.
You could say Akira or Ghost in the Shell- but again, not necessarily heoric.
The first TMNT flick works really well though, if you think about it.
But I’m gonna say the Flash TV movie- it was very well done, and did a nice job updating the world without changing it too much.
-jmt
What’s Peters opinion by the way?
Well, Hulk or Supergirl would be appropriate. 🙂
Guess we’ll have to wait until he writes the article. It’s really funny how many people have commented on this. It was a hot topic.
I for one would be interested in a heads-up when the article comes out–I want to see what consensus he’s able to distill out of the discussion.
I am just shocked and appalled that people still haven’t figured out what an unlikable turd of a movie the first Superman film is.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gmslegion/25553.html
And as for the sequel, that was the one with the turgid mess of a fight scene where all these people with super speed move like airborne glaciers on ludes, wasn’t it? Utter, utter crap, all of it.
On the other hand, I found the 1966 Batman film in the cheap bins at Wal-Mart, and that was the best $5.88 I’ve spent in months. That film’s fantastically amusing and entertaining, and every stupid part is funny, as opposed to all the stupid bits in the Superman movies, which are distracting and embarassing.
wow..has any other PAD topic ever ignited this many responces? This is wild!
OK, now that we’ve seem to have thoroughly exhausted this topic, where’s the write-up on last night’s Angel?
And now that I think about it, does the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie count as a super-hero film? Yes. Does it count as a good one? Certainly not. But it certainly earns mega-brownie points for what it spawned.
Jason:
Oops, did I accidentally imply that? I certainly didn’t intend to. Pardon me. I suppose the best way to argue about this would be to ask the reader, how would you feel if you were helpless in such a situation with no superpowers to help you out?
But I want you to know that while whatever I say, I don’t think that even a character with electromagnetic powers could beat the nazi tyranny without any competition, that doesn’t mean that the way it was done there doesn’t trivialize the historical tragedy. It still does. So does the Amazing Spider-Man 36 issue from late 2001.
Whatever anyone’s opinions, let me point out that the way I’m presenting my opinions is similar to the way that the late film critic Pauline Kael of the New Yorker presented hers in her time. Please bear in mind that the outspoken crowd does exist, and that it will have the guts to speak out if it feels that movies like the X-Men movie are badly thought out.
And I guess what you call “the outspoken crowd” will have to bear in mind that those of us who are apparently not in that club still have the “guts” to speak out, and will do so if they disagree with the outspoken crowd’s opinion.
Particularly in this case, where it’s less a question in my mind of the argument as to whether putting a superpowered character into a Holocaust setting trivializes that tragedy.
I’m arguing purely in terms of the mechanics built into the X-Men film itself, which show a young Magneto (or Eric Lenscher, if you like), in a fluke display of his powers that succeeded in doing nothing but bending a wrought iron gate a little bit and then getting his head slammed with the but of a rifle. (Yes, that did happen.)
Your leap in logic from this singular display, played for all intents and purposes as a fluke that mayn’t have repeated itself until years after WWII ended, to the notion that Eric could have used his powers to fight the Nazis like a young, electromagnetc Indiana Jones is groundless, given the way they presented the “world” of the X-Men in the film.
For all your assertions that the film is poorly thought out, your leap in logic as to the implications of the film’s opening scene is just as flimsy.
And this comparison of yourself to Pauline Kael doesn’t seem at all relevant, by the way. The issue at question here is whether the X-Men film trivialized the Holocaust.
The issue of the right to state your opinion and the way in which you do it is what logicians refer to as arguing beside the point. (So as not to seem hypocritical, I’ll admit I did this too when I erroneously put opinions in your mouth that you did not intend. This was my mistake, and I apologize.)
Bringing up JSM’s ASM 36 is also arguing beside the point, and it also comes close to the fallacy of division (guilt by association, it’s more commonly called), where you bring up something else to associate with the main issue, and then attribute the same properties to both, even though they’re not the same. Which is to say that if ASM trivialized a tragedy, simply mentioning it alongside X-Men doesn’t mean that X-Men commits the same offense.
Jason
“Remo Williams is again, a vigilante, coming from the “pulp” novels of the Destroyer, in its 130s… not sure if he’s a “Super”hero either…”
Technically, Vigilantes act without authority. Since Remo is a government (super-secret)agent with a license to kill, he does not qualify as such.
Also, did anyone mention the Warren Beatty/Madonna Flick — Ðìçk Tracy?
Few quick points:
Avi, how to put this, I really think I’ve missed your point (and I think you should watch the whole scene to be honest). If Magneto had gone on the rampage then that would have trivialised the whole thing. As many have said your idea of a rampaging child taking down the Nazi’s is unrealistic. It’s obvious in the scene he doesn’t know what is happening and the scene ends with him being brutally knocked unconcious. I am truely sorry you find the scene to be offensive. I’m not Jewish but I found the scene to be incredibly powerful and terrifying. For me it was one of the best bits of the first film as it set up so many things so easily. Magneto was fleshed out as a character and the fact his powers manifested in the camp made it worse, in his mind he thinks as you do…if only etc, and that is why he vows never to let it happen again.
Right that’s that out the way.
After reading through I realise I missed a couple:
Iron Giant: The simple line “Superman” brings a tear to my eye everytime.
Hulk series/film: Dodgy effects but great stories and incredible acting, even the music is perfect. The heroism here is overcoming the tragedy.
Mask of the Phantasm: Definately.
Akira: Fantastic film but is it a superhero film?
well just my thoughts.
Alan
Great Movies:
1. Superman the Movie: The best to date. Christopher Reeve rocked.
2. The Rocketeer.
3. Mask of the Phantasm
What do these movies all have in common? They treated the central characters seriously. It is very easy to make fun of guys dressed up in constumes going doing good. The real effort is in presenting them in a way that they will be treated seriously by the audience. In other words, they get us to suspend our disbelief.
In the completely opposite direction are the Batman movies. Totally sucked. Does Batman shop at K-Mart for his costumes. They could at least have the actors work out instead having them wear suits with muscles carved on them. At least Reeve bulked up.
My personal top 10:
1- UNBREAKABLE – Great Archnemesis, Great Dialog, Great lines, Great first time discovering his own powers. Great inside on how comic Book equals modern mithology. And there
“power ranger costume? closely related? what spiderman film did you see? spidey and green goblin aren’t related. “
The Green Goblin just happened to be the Dad of his best mate who he was rooming with!?
By related I did not mean by blood but by association.
If that mask did not look like something out of a Power Ranger movie then you have obviously never seen a Power Ranger movie.”
the goblin was harry’s father in the comics and was introduced as the goblin before harry or his father made an appearence. the mask predates power rangers by decades and just for the record I have seen all the movies and all eleven or so seasons of power rangers.
“That’s not a decision of the filmmakers. (Making them roommates was, but the Goblin’s identity was firmly established in the comics.)”
actually if i recall right they were roommmates in the comics around the time of the goblin climax
“I would have to vote for Superman.I ask you this: Is there ANY film that can top the opening sequence through the opening credits? “
Transformers the movie 🙂
“If a separate matter, most posters here seem to have gotten off the topic Peter originally broached: What is the best SUPERHERO movie ever made? He did not ask what was the best comic book movie, or best comic book adaptation, or similar side-track.
Y’know, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. I didn’t think a ‘superhero’ movie had to be based on a comic book, which is why I put my vote in for the Matrix. “
which brings up the whole is x a super hero. and personally nemo isn’t by my defination.
“The first Batman movie was simply the best superhero movie. Great direction and acting. Very cool humor and “civilian” dialogue. Keaton was great!”
first batman movie stared adam west :)(excluding serials)
hoo boy …now this is some thread
a few points before I get to the main attraction – i see lots of votes for films like Matrix and the like and I’m a little confused as to why people consider this to be a superhero movie? OK it has people doing fantastic things but don’t the vast majority of movies over the last 10 to 15 years do that too. Take any Arnie movie or the Die Hard movies or even the Lethal Weapon flicks. No-one out there really belives that happens in those pictures could really happen in real life, do they?
For me the question says superhero so that discounts “Ghost World”, “road to perdition” and the like.
So that leaves me with those guys who wear capes or similar. I’m also going to interpret that Peter might have been looking for translations to the silver screen rather than original superhero movies so I’m going to discount the likes of “Mystery men” etc.
For me, the best superhero movie hands down is the first Superman. That movie nailed a character I’ve never been totally fond of (once a Marvelite, always a Marvelite I guess) in a way that any other interpretation (comics, movies, tv) has never in my opinion done since.
I started reading comics when I was five – around 1971. What I loved about superhero comics then was the nobility, the fair-mindedness, the humanity, the honesty, the sense of sacrifice for one’s ideals, the sheer heroism of the main characters. They helped shape my world view and helped make me the person I am. I owe one hëll of a lot to those books, especially as my parental role models weren’t all they could be. It’s not out of court to say I learnt the vast majority of my moral code, my ability to deal with the big bad world from those comics.
Superman the Movie hits those notes perfectly to my recollection. I haven’t seen it for years and I’m sure that it’s aged to its detriment but what movie with some modicum of reliance on special effects hasn’t. But what I remember of Superman the Movie as a kid was a purity of spirit. It drove home to me even at that age that Superman wasn’t super because of his powers. it was because he tried to be the best man (person for the PC police) he could be. Made all the more poignant because he wasn’t human.
That’s down to a great script and a truly superlative performance by a man who has embodied those attributes ever since – Christopher Reeve.
I’ll also add (probably to start a big flame war) that I think it’s very difficult to understand the impact of that movie using today’s sensibiliies i.e if you didn’t see it around the time it was released. It’s a cliche but those were simpler times and the movie makes more sense in that context.
It’s also fair to say that I don’t much like superhero comics much nowadays. When I was a kid Captain America stood for the american dream, even when the like of Englehart were questioning what the american dream was. Nowadays I haven’t got a clue what he stands for and why he’s a hero or heroic and to me that’s true of the vast majority of superhero comics out there.
Of the others mentioned, I liked Batman (the Keaton version, the rest are excreable) as a movie but that’s not Batman to me, the X-Men/Spidey/Daredevil movies are OK but to me there’s a lack of heart at their core (as well as a lack of understanding of how to pace a movie – is it just me or are there no real highs and lows in those movies, just a constant bang, bang, bang, maybe I’n just too old)
So, Superman the Movie for me. I’m getting a lump in my throat now remembering it.
“I’ll also add (probably to start a big flame war) that I think it’s very difficult to understand the impact of that movie using today’s sensibiliies i.e if you didn’t see it around the time it was released. It’s a cliche but those were simpler times and the movie makes more sense in that context.”
I saw it when I came out as a little kid and I hated it myself.
“I saw it when I came out as a little kid and I hated it myself. “
What were you before you “came out”?
(And I know making fun of mistyping on a bulletin board is probably the lowest form of wit, but I couldn’t help myself, no offence intended)
Avi,
As evryone knows, if Magneto had started using his powers to take down the Nazi’s, then the Nazi’s would have just sent the Red Skull after him to harness his powers to use against Captian America and Nick Fury.
Let’s face it people, it’s just a comic book, a story or a movie. The idea of putting the fictional character into a real life experience, is to make the character more human and apealling, which I believe the X-men movie did and did well. The plot line was also true to the comic’s and Magneto’s original history.
I thought it was done well and made Magneto a more sympathetic character, because we could all see that the Mutant Registration Act was history repeating itself.
SPB
a few points before I get to the main attraction – i see lots of votes for films like Matrix and the like and I’m a little confused as to why people consider this to be a superhero movie? OK it has people doing fantastic things but don’t the vast majority of movies over the last 10 to 15 years do that too. Take any Arnie movie or the Die Hard movies or even the Lethal Weapon flicks. No-one out there really belives that happens in those pictures could really happen in real life, do they?
Fairly big difference between the over-the-top stunts in your examples, which stretch credulity, and those in the Matrix, which flat-out break the laws of physics.
From Dictionary.com: Superhero —A figure, especially in a comic strip or cartoon, endowed with superhuman powers and usually portrayed as fighting evil or crime.
A figure with superhuman powers –I’d say that covers Neo in the Matrix-world pretty handily. Aside from the spoon-bending and such, by the end of the movie he’s stopped bullets with his mind and flown. Not really something you’d see John McClane doing.
Funny…a similar topic just came up on another (non-comicbook related) board I frequent. I’ll give the same answer here I gave there, even tho I’m just repeating what’s already been said a few times: “Superman: The Movie” and “The Rocketeer.” They win for me for being both true to their source and for just plain being good films.
Baron Munchausen, baby. Now there’s a superhero.
“the goblin was harry’s father in the comics and was introduced as the goblin before harry or his father made an appearence. the mask predates power rangers by decades and just for the record I have seen all the movies and all eleven or so seasons of power rangers.”
Arrrrrrrrrgh!!
I am not arguing the point about the comics, my arguement is that in the comics the concept of people with superhuman abilities is well established and New York in the comics was already full of superhumans so it is more believable that one of them just happens to be the Dad of Parkers room mate. In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched.
So in closing I agree that this was established in the comics but it does not work for me in the context of the movie which did not have the established background the comics have.
A figure with superhuman powers –I’d say that covers Neo in the Matrix-world pretty handily. Aside from the spoon-bending and such, by the end of the movie he’s stopped bullets with his mind and flown. Not really something you’d see John McClane
OK but what Arnie in The Terminator films, or many sci-fi films portraying people with psychic powers, or even horror movies. Are Carrie or The Omen superhero (or supervillain) movies? I just think when you include stuff like the Matrix you open up the definition of “superhero” movie up pretty wide.
“I’m also going to interpret that Peter might have been looking for translations to the silver screen rather than original superhero movies so I’m going to discount the likes of “Mystery men” etc.”
Just wanted to point out that Mystery Men was a comic book property before becoming a movie. They guest starred in several issues of Flaming Carrot comics, and even had some highly odd text and comic stories in their own magazine.
Just a minor correction…
Good point, Dapo. And if you’re the one who made the point about Goblin’s helmet being Power Rangerish, I couldn’t agree more. They did a wonderful job, IMO, of making Spider-man work despite a full face mask, but forcing Goblin to do the over-exaggerated movements ala Power Rangers, was too much.
They should have either made it his real face (he transforms akin to hulk) or they should have created a mask the reveals most of his face.
Superman The Movie is, was, and always will be a dog. Reeves was great, some pieces worked, but most was drek. It was better than Batman, though.
Gotta go with The Phantom and The Rocketeer for theatrical releases and The Flash pilot movie for TV movies.
“In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched.”
I remember reading a Wizard article once upon a time that described how Ditko and Lee had a big argument over the identity of the Green Goblin over just this issue, with Ditko feeling that making the Green Goblin someone totally unconnected to Peter would make him more realistic and therefore a better character. It never bothered me one way or the other, but I just thought someone might be interested.
Oh, and my favorite movie vote goes to X-Men.
Dapo writes:
“In the movie however it seems there only 2 superhumans on Earth and they both happen to be in New York and actually know each other personally! I just find the odds of this happening a bit farfetched.
So in closing I agree that this was established in the comics but it does not work for me in the context of the movie which did not have the established background the comics have.”
OK. I think I understand what you’re saying. You find that, in the movie, the coincidence of the only superpowered characters being related (thematically, relationship-wise, whatever…) as being a bit much to accept. I can understand that.
I don’t know that I agree, though. But that’s OK. Different strokes for different folks.
Particularly in the case of first, “origin” movies–and particularly in the case of movies about a single superhero instead of a superheroic teams (like your X-Men or Mystery Men)–I guess I can understand why filmmakers chose to have the superpowered heroes and villains related.
If, as is often the case with an “origin” movie, you’re positing that the world of the movie was pretty much normal until the catalyzing event that created the hero, then I can understand how it might actually be viewed as a strain on credibility to incorporate a totally seperate catalyzing event to explain the creation of a superpowered villain. Filmmakers who feel this way might well be compelled to make your hero and villain related in terms of origin, relationship, or theme (even if not in pure narrative logic) with the hope that that choice might make for a more credible storyline, not a less credible one. To the extent that that’s true, I understand where such decisions come from.
Re Spidey/Goblin: Something that hasn’t been mentioned yet is that the filmmakers are to be commended for not taking the easy way out and linking the Goblin and Ben’s killer. They could have used this to streamline the storyline, but at the cost of being true to the comics’ origin. (Compare “Batman.”)
I suppose everyone is reading about Broadway now, but if anyone is still reading, I liked the Batman movie, but one point that annoyed me (and the reference to making the Joker Joe Chill reminded me)was that he was a street punk but also happened to be a chemistry genius (I think they said he was good at it in high school or college) who could make the “Joker toxin” that threatened Gotham. That was a stretch (though I don’t know if they ever explained that in the comics either). I know I’m really devolving this thread from “Best Super Hero” movie to nitpicking about a scene in a 15 year old movie, but hey, that’s what makes this site great.
For those who bring it up: The Matrix is a superhero movie because The Wachowski Brothers are making it one. The first movie was just a setup to create a world where a superman could believably exist. To quote producer Joel Silvers ” “[Writer-directors Larry and Andy Wachowski] wrote The Matrix as a long story. They wanted to tell a superhero story, so they created this world where one could be a superhero and it would be believable, because you’re in your head and you have the power to free your mind…the sequels are the story that they wanted to tell”
JimO – that part bothered me too in the Batman movie – they didn’t in any way establish how the Joker could have figured out how to do that chemistry. In the comics, however, he is much more insane, I think, and that insanity has given him a crazy genius.
Did you ever see the movie “They Might Be Giants”? In it, George C. Scott’s character plays a man who goes crazy and actually THINKS he’s Sherlock Holmes. Thinks it so much he goes from being a fairly smart guy to developing an observational acuity as great as Holmes himself. That’s how I see the Joker in the comics – he thinks he’s a genius, and he’s so crazy that he becomes one.
Sorry to go off topic – that particular thought has bothered me too, so I wanted to chime in.
It wasn’t a movie, but it should’ve been. The origin of Two-Face in the Batman animated series. It was sooo much better than the lousy Batman Forever and was everything the live action films should’ve been.