Because you demanded it…

123 comments on “Because you demanded it…”

1. Posted by: Sasha at August 10, 2005 03:32 PM
   A theory of my own is that there might be a flip-side to the hoarcrux spell, wherein a mage sacrifices his life, and places his spirit, entire, within an item.

   “Well, isn’t this kind of what Lily Potter did?”

   I see the similarity, but I don’t mean turning a killing curse back onto the caster in the sacrifice, but placing one’s spirit into an item willingly. Such as if Snape did a false curse, while Dumbledore worked a spell allowing him to possess the amulet. Dunno, just a thunk o’ me own…

   Grazi, RD Francis, I wasn’t aware how much backstory was given in OOTP. Kinda figured there was something more real to Snape’s grudge than a pissant needing to get pissy.

   Here’s yet more mental flatulence of my own devising, but has anyone thought how interesting it’d be if Herimone’s S.P.E.W. crew actually helped turn the tide against Voldemort? Those little fellas are freakin’ POWERFUL, which might be why they prefer a life of servitude, takin’ the Zen path that control is but illusion. heh, ok, maybe not.

2. True Rex, and besides, Dumbledore alluded to it in Book 6, but I’ve said for a while that with the childhood Harry had the Dursly’s hands, I’d expect him to be more like Draco (hates them stupid muggles) or Crabbe and Goyle (intellectually stunted and mean) or even Voldemorte himself…

3. This book made me realize the answer to something that had been nagging at me. At the end of the first book, Dumbledore reveals that Snape had been trying to *protect* Harry all through the book, out of a sense of responsibility because Harry’s father had once saved Snape’s life.

   But in AZKABAN, when Harry throws this in Snape’s face, Snape replies that it was James and his friends who had put him in danger to begin with, suckering him into investigating the Shrieking Shack while Lupin was dealing with “his furry little problem”.

   So why did Snape feel obligated to protect the son of a man he hated? Dumbledore’s explanation, although not *technically* a lie, seems inadequate.

   This book presents a more plausible reason. Snape’s obligation came out of guilt he felt for telling Voldemort about the Prophecy and thereby leading to James and Lily Potter’s deaths. As has been suggested, I think Snape was in love with Lily. (To which my wife said “No duh, of course he did!”) I think that is why he turned against Voldemort in the first place and why he was protecting Harry in the first book; and that in his backhanded antagonistic manner, he’s trying to force Harry to become a strong enough wizard to take care of himself.

4. Has anyone given any thought to the notion that Voldemort’s death might not be the end of the story? I have my own theory on the matter, but I have little doubt that a large group could do a better job of finding evidence/knocking holes in it than I am able with my set of books inaccessible at present. I’d love to hear your comments.

5. Is this thread still going? Is it too late to post?

   Anyway, I really do enjoy the HP books, but one thing that bothers me, that I haven’t seen anyone comment on, is how *mediocre* Harry seems to be as a wizard.

   We never see Harry do anything other than basic spells without heavy outside help. This is usually Hermione, but also has been Remus (with the dementors) or Snape’s textbook (in Potions class). Worse, he doesn’t even seem to *want* to be great. (I’ll return to this in a bit.)

   Compare this with Tom Riddle, or Snape at Haryy’s age (creating spells and basically revolutionizing Potions), or James Potter and his friends (creating the Maurader’s Map), or even the twins (coming up with all sorts of new objects for their shop).

   Harry, on the other hand, blows off most of his studies, and shows no interest in doing anything but doing the bare minimum of requirements. The one exception that springs to mind is the dementor spell. Of course, that was simple self-preservation. Which raises the question: Since Harry believes he has to face Voldemort one-on-one, why doesn’t he, you know, try to become better?

   This mediocrity is reflected in his encounters with villains. In almost every face-off (again, except the dementors), Harry has survived more by blind luck or timely assistance (basically the same thing) than by any sort of skillful wizarding.

   Hermione and Ron defeat most of the traps in book 1. The phoenix arrives in book 2. Hermione has her time thing in 3. The ghosts come out of the wand in 4. The Order and Dumbledore arrive in 5. In 6, Harry basically does squat to affect anything, and Snape could have easily taken him out had he wanted to.

   This is not to say Harry has no good qualities. He’s very brave, obviously. He attracts loyal friends (and ones who are actually good wizards). He’s a good broom rider, and the couple of spells he has down, he can do *really* well. (The patronus and disarming spells, for instance.)

   All this is to say that I think Snape’s description of Harry at the beginning of 6 is spot on.

   Given all this, I don’t really think it’s plausible for Harry to face Voldemort next book, and have any sort of reasonable chance. I know it’s supposed to be an uphill battle, but I don’t feel that Rowling has shown us that Harry even has the *potential* to be in the same league as the really good wizards.

   If Harry turns out to be suddenly great next book, I don’t feel that Rowling would have earned that. Thoughts?

6. I think that one of Harry’s strength is his willingness to enlist help when needed. It’s part of his attribute of the ability to Love that Dumbledore talks about.
   But Harry is shown to have enormous potential. His patronus is extraordinary, right? He survived Voldemort, right (I know as an infant, but still it shows his potential and inborn strength) He also is an excellent quidditch player which is valued in the wizarding world.
   He is not terrified of Voldemort, which makes him braver than most all other wizards.
   I think that Rowling is building up to show Harry’s greatness, but if he was a super kick-butt wizard all the time, some of the fun would be missing, wouldn’t it?
   Do great wizards have luckiness as an attribute?

7. I think that Rowling is building up to show Harry’s greatness, but if he was a super kick-butt wizard all the time, some of the fun would be missing, wouldn’t it?

   My point is, I guess, that I can’t really see *any* build up in Harry’s abilities. At least, any build-up beyond his peers. He seems just as good as anyone else in his class, and worse compared to folks like Hermione or the twins. I keep waiting for him to do something impressive, as opposed to lucking out.

8. Hey, no one has talked about horcruxes or R.A.B.

   I think harry is the last horcrux,gaining a piece of voldemort’s soul when the lightening bolt incident happened that’s how come they have a physicic connection. I believe Voldemort doesn’t know this since DD said a person doesn’t necessarily know their horcrux is destroyed. It would also fulfill the prophecy, since one can not exist without the other. I believe that DD has to be dead, he was prepping harry for his death the whole book and has given him all the tools of compassion and love needed to defeat Voldemort and rise above his pain and need for revenge (like DD said, love and compassion is the key) and Harry has all the insight into Voldemort’s life, to make him see that Voldemort is not really a bad guy, just a misguided child. If harry is to do this, in true saviour fashion, he must do it on his own so that he may become the one Voldemort fears most and show that he has truly learned from dd’s guidance and instead of fighting for revenge, he must show compassion enough to sacrafice himself for the greater good (a wizard christ/neo figure)and kill himself to destroy the last part of V’s soul within him and let V ride whole into the afterlife, as well as let the wizard world being free from V’s tyranny.
   That’s what I think and I think R.A.B is Regulis Black, Sirius’s great grandfather on the wall in DD’s office.
   Thanks,
   Aaron

9. Aaron, there is a pretty lengthy discussion focusing on horcruxes and the theory that Harry is one of them farther up in this thread. You have some here who agree with you.

   Fred

10. Lorin-about thinking that slughorn and dumbledore switched places, i think ur right…but still, im going to have to go back and read it…anyway, dumbledore isnt dead, im 60% sure of that, as for snape being part of the plan, thats a defiant(99.9999%)

11. harry cant be a horcruxe, dumbledore himself said something living cant be

12. Well, at first i thought R.A.B was Regulas Black, but now that everybody has it,wouldnt it be a little to obvious? Would J.K really making something that easy to figure out? i think theres going to be a loop (sp) somewhere about r.a.b
    Oh and the locket that was fake, well maybe if r.a.b is regulas black, in ootp, harry found a locket at grimmuald place he couldnt open, could that be the real one?

13. why don’t you simply wait for the next book? rowling herself doesn’t know how the story ends….

14. uh, hey. I haven’t read the 5 book in a while but don’t they find a cup thats glued to the cabinet as well as the locket? And when dumbledore is found and the bottom of the tower, why is the locket in his hand? And why wasn’t his body crushed to bits by the fall? It could have just greusom for jk to want to print but couldn’t it still make a diference? And I think the fact his bodys covered makes a big difference, you dont know whats really under there…

15. I have just surprised myself by reading the entire thing yesterday! A cracking yarn, better by far than the cheesiness and melodrama of book 5, although there was still a briefly cheesy moment of talking about how wonderful love is, and how Harry can love, etc etc aren’t flowers wonderful. I thought the teen relationships subplots were great, especially Ron hiding from Lavender, and then eventually getting her to dump him. Very funny.

    My predictions:
    Dumbledore is dead.
    Snape is good.
    Sirius is not dead (not gone, at least).
    Draco will join forces with Harry.

    Character analyses:
    Snape – He is 100% on the good side. As a boy he was very able, but being withdrawn and a bit of a geek he got bullied and his talents weren’t acknowledged, making him extremely bitter. He is now entrusted with one of the most important roles in the fight against Voldemort, although by its very nature this role is secret. This means his continued unacknowledgement and thus his continued bitterness. Hence his anger when Harry calls him a coward – he has been called a coward (or suchlike) all his life, and just when he is proving that he is not, the Chosen Glory Boy calls him a coward again! So Snape hates Harry, his father and almost everyone else for being popular, but he is still on the good side. A true hero – doesn’t let his personal feelings get in the way of his morals.
    Draco – He has only been bad because of his family tradition and a sort of childish way of being cool. He is not actually evil (as seen by his inability to kill Dumbledore). He virtually says as much when he says that Voldemort has threatened his family. He is only responding to outside pressures (e.g. weight of expectation from his family) but he will overturn these in the 7th book, team up with Harry and… they’ll move to Soho together? Um, well, probably not! but I reckon he will ultimately prove useful in defeating the Dark Lord.

    Further points in reaction to previous discussions:
    It is Bellatrix who gets burnt, not Narcissa.
    Dumbledore’s dead body is actually described: he has his arms and legs at a “strange angle”, glasses askew and Harry wipes blood from his mouth.
    RAB: anyone but Bones!
    Yup, shame about the unconvincingness of the Tonks/Lupin thing, but then Rowling only had 600 pages! Give the girl a chance! She can’t fit every lovelife subplot in.
    Dumbledore/Snape swap: nope. Definitely not.
    Dumbledore/Slughorn swap: hmm, interesting.

    Wild theory:
    Snape is Draco’s father. Evidence: very close to Narcissa; he is whom she turns to for help with Draco; not much else, just a hunch I have!

    ‘Dumbledore lives’: it never explicitly says that Dumbledore is dead. It infers it by talking about his body, and by having characters say that he is dead, or have feelings in reaction to the knowledge that he is dead, and of course the phoenix that Harry glimpses might be a clue…
    BUT… I think that he is dead. Agreeing with a previous post, the whole point is that Harry has been protected all through his development, and now he must succeed on his own.
    Comparisons to Gandalf are not really very apposite: with Gandalf, there was no body, and he didn’t show up in the end to save the day, but in the very next book, whereupon he continued to contribute a great deal to the action.

    Basically there is deliberately no conclusive evidence in the book to say whether Dumbledore is dead or not, as it is a great topic of discussion to keep people going until the next one – a cliffhanger, if you like. So the most definite thing you can say is, “I have a gut feeling that he is dead/alive*” (*=delete as applicable). You’ll just have to wait! In the meantime I recommend Terry Pratchett.

16. DUMBLEDORE ISNT DEAD… (any questions? email mark_smyth3095@hotmail.com)
    DUMBLEDORE PLANNED HIS DEATH
    • Why did Dumbledore freeze harry when he was already invisible? – Harry was frozen to be a ‘witness’ to his apparent murder
    • Missing text, only in US version : “He cannot kill you if you are already dead… Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me — forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother — it is what they would do themselves, after all.”
    • Fawkes did not try and save Dumbledore, however, after the events is extremely vocal in letting everyone know of its masters death
    • Avarda Kedavra curse was not real
    -emphasis in the book on non-verbal spells
    -Dumbledore was pushed back over the battlements
    • Dumbledores wand goes flying over the battlements when he was disarmed by Malfoy, and the wand never mentioned again. However it is customary for a wizard to be buried with his wand (Note : Hagrid and Slughorns recount on Ode the wizard’s death). A wizards wand is extremely important in performing magic, yet it is never recovered
    • Dumbledore’s body is never seen after the fall, not even at the funeral
    • At the funeral, Dumbledores body burst into flames and Fawkes is seen y Harry. Whenever a phoenix burst into flames it reappears in another location, and it can take people with it.

    SNAPE WAS IN ON DUMBLEDORES SECRET
    • “Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree…” (HBP pg 31/36) However Snape lies to Bellatrix and Narcissa about why he didn’t kill Harry in all those years. He knows Harry is anything but mediocre. Harry is a Parseltongue, able to produce a Patronus and extremely capable in Defence Against the Dark Arts
    • “But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains, and then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning.” (HBP pg 32/37) Snape lies again, he does not know the plan. And the action of closing the windows would allow him to read into the emotional Narcissa’s mind, using Legilimens
    • Dumbledore knows that there is a curse set by Voldemort on the Defence Against the Dark Arts job, thus he realised Snape would not last the year.
    • Hagrid overheard and argument between Dumbledore and Snape, “I jus’ heard Snape sayin’ Dumbledore took too much fer granted an’ maybe he — Snape — didn’ wan’ ter do it anymore … Dumbledore told him flat out he’d agreed ter do it an’ that was all there was to it.”. This could be evidence that Dumbledore intended Snape to at least look like to kill him.
    • “…somebody else had spoken Snape’s name, quite softly. “Severus…” The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. … Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. “Severus… Please…”, Dumbledore isn’t pleading for his life, but instead is pleading with Snape to follow through with his promise.
    • Dumbledore would not plead for his life, but be accepting of his fate, “To the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure”.
    • Finally, Dumbledore was aware of the unbreakable vowel as Harry had alerted him, if Snape hadn’t already done so. Therefore Dumbledore knew Snape would have to kill him
    • Snape, at the end of the 6th book has the opportunity to kill Harry, with no Dumbledore around, yet he doesn’t take it. As Dumbledore is already dead, it doesn’t matter if he kills Harry and abandons his post.
    • Snape, who prides himself on his ability to control his emotions, looses them at a key point in his flight, “ Harry – ‘Kill me like you killed him, you coward –‘, ‘DON’T –‘ screamed Snape…’- CALL ME COWARD’ “. Snape only looses control when he is accused of cowardice because of killing Dumbledore, yet his anger is because he did so against his wishes. Snape was forced by Dumbledore to kill him, and thus such an act took incredible bravery and courage for Snape.

17. well the thing that you are all forgetting is that the avada kedarva curse does not throw people up in the air. Througout the book it only refers to slamming to the floor not flying half feet away. The spell that Snape used is clearly expellimeraus ( soory for spelling.It was non- verbal duhhhhhhh!

18. My theory is that Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus; a pheonix. When, in “Order of the Pheonix”, Fawkes is hit by a killing spell, he does not die…he just looks dead. He comes back again in the final book. THUS, Dumbledore would look dead, but not really be. This brings me to the other part of the theory, Snape is good. If we accept that Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus, then we must accept that the killing curse would do nothing but bring it back to a young age. Which means that, Dumbledore would look dead..but when he catches in flames at his funeral, he is in fact becoming young again. Which in turn would mean that he would grow back again, and be able to help Harry like he always does.

19. hate to admit it, but have no real idea whether or not DD is dead. JKR is just too dadgum good at planting clues – and false clues – and writing key pasages in a way that turns out to be VERY ambiguous upon close inspection. the lady knows her craft.

    still, i hold out hope for DD’s return. key reasons for this:
    1) while swimming to the cave, DD “suddenly” exhibits the “agility of a much younger man”. whoa! where’d that come from?
    2) DD says “oho” in the cave. he’s never ever said “oho” at any time before. but we know someone else who does….
    3) snape’s ‘avada kedavra’ blasts DD off his feet, and over the side. every other time we’ve seen AK used – quite a few times, now – the victim just slumps like a puppet with its strings cut. why is this AK different?
    4) why would DD make the boneheaded tactical move of freezing harry on the tower? harry’s invisible at the time. why not just let invisible harry neutralize malfoy and get on to business?
    5) “he cannot kill you if you are already dead”. what’s that word? foreshadowing?
    6) at the funeral, the body bursts into flames. for a brief second, harry thinks he sees a phoenix flying away. and phoenixes are famous for….rising from the ashes, reborn. what’s that word? foreshadowing?

    well. we can still hope, no?

20. Remember what Hagrid told Harry he overheard? Snape and Dumbledore arguing? Snape said he “didn’t want to do it” anymore and Dumbledore said something like (I’m not quoting) “he promised he would” or something…? Dundundun…

21. I reccommend (sorry about the spelling) http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com 🙂

22. “Count me out of the “Snape is REALLY good” group. Frankly, I figger that enough people would be amazed if Snape actually IS a villain/ not a super secret triple agent.”

    I think Snape is like Captian Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean (again, sorry about the spelling). He’s on whichever side wins.

23. Somebody mentioned Bellatrix zapping Narcissa, which I had forgotten, actually. Could Narcissa actually have been Dumbledore in disguise, not the other way around, explaining the hand, as well as Snape’s twitch during the vow? All part of the plan…

    ——-

    Her exact words (when making the Vow) were “…will you watch over my son, Draco…”
    Sooooo unless Dumbledore has a son named Draco…

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