I’ve had good times in Spain. Met lots of charming, enthusiastic comics fans there during my several sojourns.
And now people are getting blown up. Initially 170, and you just knew that number was going to keep climbing, and it is. I keep worrying one of the smiling folks I met are just dismembered corpses now. And even if it’s no one I knew, that certainly doesn’t make it “better.”
Yet it was “comforting” somehow to think it was Basque separatists, because then it wasn’t “our” problem, it was Spain’s. Except now, with even separatists distancing themselves from the blast, Al Qaida is claiming responsibility…ostensibly to punish US allies over the attack on Iraq. Which leads me to wonder if people who were yelling that there were Iraq/Al Qaida links are perceiving this as a good thing (“Proof!”) or a bad thing (“Oh, right, people got killed.”)
I would stop short of saying that the blood is on Bush’s hands. Madmen don’t need rational reasons to kill others. Iraq was just another excuse for the acts of madmen, who might well have committed the same atrocities in Spain while putting some other spin on it.
And yet, if it is Al Qaida, we will be blamed for it. Don’t doubt that. The Spanish government backing the US was a spectacularly unpopular move. We went into a war searching for non-existent WMDs and, a year later, Spanish civilians are being turned into pinatas with that action being cited as the cause for it. Yet another reason for yet another country to hate us.
The insanity is just escalating. Blood on our hands? On second thought, Hëll, why not. In the horror show of escalating terrorism, where the only answer for violence that so many people can come up with is more violence on top of more violence, there’s enough blood for everyone.
PAD
• 
answering Thomas Gillen :
Sir, you’re a moron. Before you blame the French or the Germans, get out of your county and stop watching CNN. There’s a real world outside. Bombing people doesn’t make you one of the good guys
Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, neatly put it, “We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.”
One side has people willing to strap dynamite to their bodies and walk into crowds, going BOOM when they get there. The other side has weapons which can incinerate entire cities in the blink of an eye. If it really does come down to a war of elimination, I think I know who’s going to win.
Although, of course, we all lose if it comes to that.
> Terrorists really don’t have much to say…
Adam Hall said it best in one of his Quiller novels: “He was on a liberation kick and he was sincere about it and therefore dangerous: the political terrorist is the man who could create new and better worlds if he could express his dreams with intelligence; having none, he can only express his frustration.” – Quiller [KOBRA]
> Tried to send a message to Daniel Garcia to compliment him on his English which is, after all, a lot better than my espanol (sorry, not sure where the n~ is on this thing). Unfortunately, I don’t know what sort of link he has on his name, but I got sent to a redirect page, then some popup was intercepted by the popup killer, and finally my WIN 2000 pro system crashed completely and had to be restarted. I’m guessing that’s not supposed to happen when you click on someone’s name here.
> Do something? And you’re an oppressive nation, and it just reenforces why they hate you…
True, but you can do so in a way that there are a lot fewer of them to do something about it. I’m brought to mind a short ‘alternate universe’ story where the Nazis did win WW II and Ghandi tried the same stunt he used successfully against the British in our universe. The Nazis just took him out and shot him. So much for that movement. Am I advocating it? No. But if the lunatics push enough, they may find us becoming the very thing they said we were and then wishing they had been wrong.
> Negiotation has to happen sooner or later,
With all due respect, how do you “negotiate” with a rabid dog who is chewing on your ankle?
> because otherwise the only way to achieve peace is not only kill the terrorists,
Works for me. There comes a point where “OK, boys and girls, it’s like this: either you clean up your problem (rogue/fanatic elements in the population) or we’ll do it for you and you WON’T like how we will go about it” is really the only way to deal with them.
> And in 10 years, the left will have too much power. So it goes.
Or the right, or the left or … What you’re saying is “the GOVERNMENT will have too much power”?
> America is not to blame for the acts of people we are in opposition to.
Someone once wisely wrote that “inciting to riot is not excuse for the riot, but it is also guilty.” And when the U.S. is known to stick its nose here and there and everywhere, propping up unpopular governments, and tearing down others, who should be surprised if there aren’t more than a few people who take a dim view of this?
> I’m saying that humanity is caught in a cycle of violence being answered with violence being answered with violence being answered with violence.
I’m not a big fan of it, the comments above notwithstanding, but it worked against Germany and Japan in WW II. Sometimes, there’s nothing else that will get the job done.
>We need to let Bin Landen and the others know we mean business.
Lobbing cruise missiles at one of his training camps shortly before the 2001 attacks (we missed him, unfortunately) should have been enough to get that point across.
>Of course the Christians aren’t going to declare war on you because you disagree with them.
Tell that to North Ireland’s Catholic/Protestant loons who spent how many decades beating up on each other?
> when you believe that dying gives you better rewards than living, it’s hard to crush that movement. Killing them does serve to inspire more.
Maybe, but so long as you kill them and give them their cherished afterlife BEFORE they can take some of you with them, the point is moot. Either way, they get what they want, minus taking you with them. Until we can come up with an alternative which is PROVEN to work in such extreme cases, I’ll be happy with that outcome. And, given how many fanatics seem bound and determined to stop any peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis (as one example), I’d say we may well have warp drive before an effective alternative can be found.
“In fact, when you believe that dying gives you better rewards than living, it’s hard to crush that movement. Killing them does serve to inspire more. One also must recongnize that Japan was infused with Western ideas so much so that we reshaped their culture.”
Could there be a better example of a culture where death in the cause was venerated than Imperial Japan? They were the first to use airplanes as a weapon of mass destruction. They had plans for a manned torpedo, for Pete’s sake! On Saipan they fought almost to the last man, preferring death to surrender.
And they folded like a cheap suit once it was obvious that there would be no glorious death, no hope of even making it a Pyrrhic victory for the Americans.
Third World Muslims are not genetically dumber than Asians. Take out the crazies and offer them a better life through modern civilization, toss in a few quaint Western ideas (“You don’t HAVE to slice off a girl’s genitals!”)and they will happily join the 21st century.
> One possible point though–there is an election in Spain in just a few days. It would be to the advantage of one party for the bombers to be Al Qaida, as opposed to Basque seperatists. That being the case, care must be taken so that we aren’t fooled by either one terrorist group pretending to be the other, or by government officials suppressing the truth. (The just announced arrests seem to point to Al Qaida but other factors call this into question).
Actually it’s the reverse – the Spanish government actually asked the press to take “every opportunity” to link it to Eta.
It just occured to me….since we have been told that there was no reason to link Al Qaida and Saddam’s regime together isn’t it a bit curious that Al Qaida is now targeting countries based on their support for Saddam’s overthrow?
One thing’s for sure–they showed that they can influence an election. I’m afraid that this years “October surprise” might not be from either of the two major political parties. Hope I’m wrong.
Leto: answering Thomas Gillen: Sir, you’re a moron. Before you blame the French or the Germans, get out of your county and stop watching CNN. There’s a real world outside. Bombing people doesn’t make you one of the good guys
Luigi Novi: First of all, I
Bill MulliganIt just occured to me….since we have been told that there was no reason to link Al Qaida and Saddam’s regime together isn’t it a bit curious that Al Qaida is now targeting countries based on their support for Saddam’s overthrow?
I’ve seen several people propose that one of the reasons Bush attacked Iraq was so Iraq would act as a magnet – they thought AQ would go there to drive us out. An unstable Iraq would be an easier target than the continental US.
There has been some evidence that this is exactly what has happened, but the bombings in Spain don’t necessarily hold up to that theory.
The socialists have taken power in Spain.
The perception to the murderous cowards these Islamo-fascists are that it worked. The bombings worked.
The people have spoken. Kill enough of us and we will do your bidding.
I pray for you Yanks in November
“Second, didn
PAD sez: “By the way, in case *anyone* was wondering, the comment about a couple hundred million Christians declaring war on this one guy because they didn’t like his opinion was such an over-the-top notion that it was clearly intended to be facetious. So naturally, some people seem to think I was serious. I wasn’t.”
C’mon Peter, we know that. We’re just busting your chops.
Okay, my mistake. I apologize. I shouldn’t have used “idiotic names”, but i rather should have rationally argued with Thomas. But the idea of bombing Mecca made me jump. Starting World War Three and killing people because of their religion and all that…
What amazes me about the terrorists is that they have the ability to convince people to do their deeds for them, and it appears that the people who do them are so …..I dunno…..gullible? stupid? lost? that they do it *willingly*. You don’t see OBL or his immediate lieutenants strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up.
Yes, maybe the thought processes of those who sacrifice themselves are different, but surely they must have *some* common sense.
If nothing else it’s a good argument to support rational atheism. You know, the old “if the ‘afterlife’ is so wonderful and really exists, how come no one has come back to let us know so we can all get there faster?” shtick.
We must isolate the ringleaders and eliminate them. Cut off the head and hopefully the body will die. And we must do it swiftly, and decisively. Much as I hate violence as much as anyone, if it involves a bit of collateral damage, then that’s just too bad. The free world cannot remain so as long as these guys run around with carte blanche to create this type of havoc.
And incidentally, if they wanted to influence the Spanish election results, they got their way.
Regarding the Spanish elections, had the conservative leadership of the Popular Party not gone out of its way to attempt to blame ETA for the attacks, then the people might have given its candidates (remember, it wasn’t only the Prime Minister whose job was at stake–the Popular Party also lost seats in Parliament) a better chance. It was only after several days of Aznar’s government pushing the investigation in the direction of ETA’s being responsible that the government finally yielded and started looking at the al-Qaeda connection.
If anyone’s at fault for the Popular Party’s loss, it’s Aznar. Most observers had suggested that the hard line that the PP took in blaming ETA would lead to a resounding win in the elections, but after having no hard evidence to connect ETA to the attacks, the PP (and Aznar) were accused of attempting to cover up the truth.
As for Bill Mulligan’s comment about it being “curious” that al-Qaeda would target an ally in the war against Iraq. Honestly, there’s nothing curious about it. To al-Qaeda, it’s simply a case of Westerners seeking to continue dominating the Muslim world. Whether it’s the Soviet Union occupying Afghanistan, US bases in Saudi Arabia or a US-led coalition of troops in Iraq, it’s still the notion of “infidels” occupying Muslim lands. There’s really nothing remotely “curious” about that. Is there anything “curious” in an Administration taking a closer look at closing a military base in a district represented by a member of the Opposition party? Is there anything “curious” in an Administration deciding to cut back HIV-prevention funds from groups that emphasize safe-sex and condom usage while boosting funds to groups that promote abstinence-only because the latter type of groups are more in line with said Administration’s own social philosophy? Al-Qaeda has its own political and social and religious and philosophical ideas to pursue just as any government does and it’s going to take whatever course it deems necessary to advance those ideas just as any government will do, regardless of how it may look to “outsiders”.
“As for Bill Mulligan’s comment about it being “curious” that al-Qaeda would target an ally in the war against Iraq. Honestly, there’s nothing curious about it.”
Oh, I agree. But then, I’ve thought that they were more likely than not working together long beofre 9/11. The people who claimed that Al-Qaeda and Saddam could never work together because of philosophical differences seemed awfully naive to me.
I just heard now on the morning news that Spain is pulling their 1,300 troops out of Iraq. Not a huge numbers the talking heads are saying, but a gesture with symbolic meaning (and ramifications).
In first place I wanted to say that the way that I found Laura Bush a little “satanic” was satirical, I really don’t know practicly anything about her nor I have anything against her, but I found her way of smiling a little comical.
Aznar, the man who backed Bush, has now leaved the power and all his legacy (the candidate that was to continue his work) has somehow been dismised by the Spanish.
Maybe you could think that Americans are somehow hated in Spain or that they are acting as cowards because of this sudden change in the goverment, but it’s not quite the truth.
I think I’ll put a comicbook example even if it sounds a little obscene.
The Fantastic Four decide to go to war against Doom. They (for strange reasons) ask the X-Men to publicly back them. Charles Xavier, against all the opinion of the rest of ALL the X-Men, not only publicly backs the FF, but goes further and sends his X-Men against Doom.
Doom kills half of the group. How would the remaining X-Men feel about Xavier? Maybe they simpatice with the FF and their battle with Doom and feel they are doing the right thing, but also they mostly think “This is not our war” and “The price payed is too high for us” or even “We aren’t prepared to play in the mayor league against Doom”.
So basicaly this is why Charles Xavier, sorry, President Aznar is being “fired”. Sorry about joking about such important matters but personally I thought it would be clearer.
Someone said:
It was only after several days of Aznar’s government pushing the investigation in the direction of ETA’s being responsible that the government finally yielded and started looking at the al-Qaeda connection.
Considering that the moslem suspects were arrested two days after the bombings, don’t you think you should reconsidered what you just said?
I just heard now on the morning news that Spain is pulling their 1,300 troops out of Iraq. Not a huge numbers the talking heads are saying, but a gesture with symbolic meaning (and ramifications).
Sad thing is that this will probably be incorrectly interpreted by some terrorists as, “see, killing people works. Now, let’s go blow up something in X Country and then they’ll pull out.”
“Sad thing is that this will probably be incorrectly interpreted by some terrorists as, “see, killing people works. Now, let’s go blow up something in X Country and then they’ll pull out.”
How is this an incorrect interpretation? Unless the vote was more of a referendum on the government’s opportunistic claims that it was the Basques who were responsible.
I’d expect England to be the next target. And us. It might backfire of course and actually improve Bush’s chances of reelection but I think the terrorists will think it worth a try. Worse come to worse, they only manage to kill a bunch of Americans which, to them, is fine all by itself.
Oh, my. Spain is sure to change its mind after reading your opinion.
We have been suffering terrorism for decades in our country while the rest of the world looked to another side, you only have to see how PAD named ETA ‘basque separatists’ instead of ‘terrorists’, a common mistake in your media.
So it’s not like you have to tell us what it takes to fight it.
I fact, I think that the only reason why Aznar was with the USA in Iraq was as way to get help with our owns problems, despite Iraq having just about nothing to do with terrorism, if at all.
Jaume Mateu wrote:
I think I’ll put a comicbook example even if it sounds a little obscene.
The Fantastic Four decide to go to war against Doom. They (for strange reasons) ask the X-Men to publicly back them. Charles Xavier, against all the opinion of the rest of ALL the X-Men, not only publicly backs the FF, but goes further and sends his X-Men against Doom.
Doom kills half of the group. How would the remaining X-Men feel about Xavier? Maybe they simpatice with the FF and their battle with Doom and feel they are doing the right thing, but also they mostly think “This is not our war” and “The price payed is too high for us” or even “We aren’t prepared to play in the mayor league against Doom”.
Your analogy isn’t quite right, though. Suppose Xavier sent Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean, and Storm to assist in the war on Doom, and Doom retaliated by sending a Doombot murdering Rogue and Gambit, who were sitting at home watching television. The loss of Scott or Ororo could feasibly be placed on Xavier’s head — the loss of Gambit or Rogue (who, again, weren’t involved in the battle at all), however, couldn’t.
The X-men (or the Spanish, in the real world scenario), by pulling out of the battle, is telling Doom (or terrorist organizations) that they’ll back off if you kill civilians. Whether or not one agrees with the motivation to go to war in the first place, it should be obvious that giving into the demands of terrorists only encourages others to use those tactics.
I wrote:
“…by sending a Doombot murdering Rogue…”
I apologize to everyone for my pathetic grasp of the English language. I only wish I had the excuse that it was my second language.
Hi, PAD and everyone. Yeah, I’m yet another spaniard. Seems like there’s quite a few of us lurking over here. 🙂
DEE: As a matter of fact, let me tell you the spanish socialist party, winner of yesterday’s general elections, said they strongly opposed the government’s decision to support the war even before it began, and promised months ago to pull the troops out of Iraq should they win the election. So, no real surrender to Al-Qaeda there, just the fulfillment of a promise.
Plus, it has been announced that those same troops would be sent back to Iraq as part of a UN-sanctioned international coallition -quite the opposite to the current situation, isn’t it- as soon as the UN takes military control over the region -as, IMO, it should always have been.
After all, even we “euro pûššìëš & sheep” don’t want to leave all those innocent Iraqi civilians to their own fates, you know. Not specially since we are perfectly aware that it was our government’s decision that’s at least partially responsible for their current situation.
Oh, and please, Dee: the next time you want to accuse someone of surrendering to terrorists, please make sure that person ain’t Spanish, for we’ve suffered terrorist attacks for the last 30 years. True, never before in such a large scale (and I know it’s still not as large as the WTC attacks), but hey, if there’s any one thing a Spaniard knows as well as anyone could, it’s to cope with the idea of terrorism as a constant threat to your everyday life.
MBB,
Not all of us agree with Dee’s comments. She has her own right wing agenda and seems to believe she and her ideology have the anwer to everything. Anyone who has followed news that actually happens outside the states knows that terrorists have been targeting many areas of the world for a good many years. Unfortunately, the media in our country ordinarily gloss over these stories. They may talk about it for a few days, and then it’s off to some other story that takes our attention away from world afairs. I don’t know why our country isn’t more interested in the world. We seem to believe, at times, that we are the only country that has any importance. Sometimes I really feel like moving to Canada…
MBB, I think the point being made was the fact that, to all appearances, the major change in leadership in your country was due *directly* to the bombing.
That the existing party of leadership would likely have stayed in power if not for the attack.
The timing of the attack certainly seems more than coincidencidental.
Two facts. The people in Spain (90%) didn’t want a war on Irak, spanish people wants to fight terrorism… of all kinds.
9/11 I felt shoked and so sad for people in U.S., lots of innocent people died that day, a really lot of people, I still can’t forget the people junping througt the windows… I spent the whole day in front of T.V., I couldnt belive… a massacre of people just like me… I felt a really empathy for those faces.
3/11 I really felt it close to me, I called my family in Madrid and my friends, and everibody was sane and safe, thank Buda. I was working in the studio, I had to, but was with the radio on, and listening to every word, I needed to know… and listened stories of the people who was there… the firefighter who was taking corpses out of the trains in an absolute silence just broken by the sounds of the cell phones of the victims… he knew that their family was worried for them… in real time… I listened the record of a girl calling from Atocha station after the first bomb to her workmates informing that there had been a bombing in one train and the loud sound of the esplosion of the second bomb… and then just people yelling and a sudden cut in comunication.
In the afternoon I went back home and hugged my girlfriend… knowing how lucky I was for every single breath of air… for every step on the street…
From that moment on I started to know how the U.S. people could feel 9/11… because of that pain I was closer than ever to any american guy that day.
I started to know how the everyday guy in Israel could feel every too few days, I felt closer to him too.
That night Martan and me didn’t talk too much, we just watched T.V. again and again the very same information, like a mantra. Zapping from channel to channel wanting to know. I’m not smarter than anyone, and even thought I am dumbber than lots of people, and at that moment I knew that what the goverment was telling to me with the news there were was far different to what seemed purelly logical to me… but, you know… they have more information that I do… maybe it’s me again… I’m so dumb, I can’t understand the complicated things there is to know about everything…
Friday I went again to the streets, with some other 1.200.000 guys as dumb as me, for the victims… the people was together mourning for the victims, in silence with our clean hands on the air… I didn’t care if it was Al Qaeda or if it was E.T.A. a killer is a killer, a corpse is a corpse…
That night I remembered I was in the streets against the war on Irak… and then I had the same feeling of somebody trying to convince me of something I didn’t agree…
Friday night the news kept coming, Al Qaeda assuming the attak and E.T.A. refusing any responsability.
I buyed the paper that day, and in the nervious night I rode the dead and wounded list… There was an Iv
Responding to leto
Sir any one calling any one a Moron should look in the mirror. I have been out of my country, I lived in Ireland for two years and travel throughout Europe, my wife is a native Albanian, I have a clearer understanding of the European mind then most. I also have stood at the American cemetery in France and gazed at the endless sea of dead, including two of my uncles. I know the price that America paid to free Europe from her own mistakes. No dropping a bomb on people does not make you one of the good guys….defending the freedom of others does, having the balls to stand up for what is right does…as anothe rposter said Iselam was born to war, that is the language the Koran speaks. America was born to Freedom that is the language we speak. When those two clash you can either take sides like Spain was brave enough to do, or hide like France did…but then again of course the French hide in WWII as well remember.
Bob Jones: Thanks for the recommendation. The Crusades are one of the most misunderstood wars on the planet. While I doubt Jesus is thrilled with what happened, the current misperceptions about it are simply depressing.
To all our Spanish friends: we grieve with you.
“When those two clash you can either take sides like Spain was brave enough to do, or hide like France did…but then again of course the French hide in WWII as well remember.”
Learn history. To say that France hide in WW2 is like saying USA ran away from the ‘Nam.
Living in Israel, I’m no stranger to this kind of cannabalism by now. And after 9-11, I was shocked by that too, and the fact that now, even America was facing a new reality.
Now, it looks like even Spain and the rest of Europe is in danger too, of terrorism that’s flaring up over there as well. And it’s really sad that the problem of terrorism is on the rise as it is worldwide.
This is exactly why, if serious action isn’t taken against the Al-Qaeda, and even against the PLO and the Hamas, then the globe is going to be very serious danger.
I’m from Spain, and no one here hates the United States. We hate the people that led us to an illegal war, using lies (our president, now ex-president, told us at the Parlament that “he knew for sure that there was massive destruction weapons”… when these weapons proved it’s not existance, he doesn’t went back in his words). One of the three responsibles for this has lost his power, Aznar. Now it’s the time for Bush and Blair.
And maybe the next time they lie will be tou their wives…
The mindset of the Terrorists:
I have 2 incidents that happened to me when I was in what’s euphemistically called “Field Ops”. I can tell you the name of the actual country in 2019 when my security agreement ends. 🙂
1.) Not being the brightest bulb in the drawer back in my early 30s, I used to take part of my daily jog through a Palestinian refugee camp. Thought it would be a good place to pick up some info on the sly. One day, as I ran through it, a kid who must have been 8-10 years old, stepped out in front of me and sighted down on me with an AK-47. The adults who were near him all laughed and pointed. Some of them, unaware that I could understand them, told him to go ahead and shoot me. I slowly raised my hands and told them I had a U.S. Diplomatic passport that I could show them. A couple of the adults said the kid should still shoot me but one guy went over and took the rifle away. The kid never smiled. I never ran that way again.
2.) As the emabassy’s Defense Attache was showing me around the neighborhood one day, I saw two very attractive young local ladies across the street. A local army vehicle pulled up, several of the soldiers jumped out and and dragged the women kicking and screaming back into the truck. It took off. The DA told me the soldiers would rape the young women and either dump them back on the street or kill them and dump them somewhere else. Nothing would ever be done to the soldiers.
Pour some coffee and talk amongst yourselves.