Well, I’ve read Marvel’s response to the Waid situation (which appears on Newsarama and is also posted way down in the thread just before this one.) What’s truly odd is that I read Mark’s comments, and Joe’s response, and not only are they NOT mutually exclusive, but they actually dovetail.
Joe states that Mark is “mixed up.” That “Honey I Shrunk the FF” was merely a proposed direction from a month ago, and is not the way they’re taking the book. That fans are getting upset over something that’s moot. Okay, I accept that. It happened with “Captain Marvel,” when word leaked of a “Return of Mar-Vell” storyline that we’d already discussed and dumped weeks earlier.
But Joe doesn’t deny that’s the direction Mark was told the series should go a few weeks back. And Mark never says that was the direction the book is now going. All he says it, in regards to his firing, “It would seem the decision to replace me was made the moment I failed to get with the program.” That’s not the same as saying it’s definitely the direction the book is going, although it’s certainly not an outrageous inference for fans to draw.
Joe also said that Bill Jemas is not going to be writing the book, whereas Mark had said he heard Bill would. Once again, evidence of confusion on Mark’s part…except, once again, not an absolute contradiction. Joe didn’t say that Bill was NEVER going to write the book. That there had been no plans for him to write it. Merely that he’s not going to do so now. Yes, it’s possible Mark was misinformed. On the other hand, it’s also possible, based on the phrasing, that Bill was planning to but backed off rather than take the PR hit…either on his own initiative, or at the strong suggestion of someone else.
What I did derive a chuckle from was: “Furthermore, this isn’t a cost saving measure nor is it some flight of fancy. This is a change in direction for a Marvel title requested by the man who schemed the Ultimate Universe, had the guts to tell Origin and turned Marvel’s publishing business around in less than two years. But hey, what does he know.”
Boy, does THAT not logically track. Trotting out Bill Jemas’ business decisions and implying it lends cred to Bill’s writing skills or creative instincts is like saying that because Flipper swims so well, you like his chances running the Kentucky Derby.
PAD
• 
Firing Mark Waid off the Fantastic Four so Bill Jemas can try a extremely dumb idea is just stupid. Jemas takes too much credit for stuff other people did.
Yes, Even the ultimate line. Without Bendis and the other talented people it would have blown up in Bill Jemas’s face. He may be a decent businessman, but he’s no writer. Jemas is just a guy with delusions of being Stan Lee with none of the talent the Man had.
PAD, quick question for you:
Can you ever remember time when a creator, whose work had dramtically increased the monthly sales of the book, was fired in order to “change the direction of the book”???
My best guess at the answer is, “Um, no”.
Can you ever remember time when a creator, whose work had dramtically increased the monthly sales of the book, was fired in order to “change the direction of the book”???
I can think of a Hulk writer…and an Aquaman writer…and a Young Justice writer…
PAD,
Thanks for taking the time to compare and contrast the different accounts and try to figure out what’s what. As far as I can tell, you’re the only person to have done so; I guess all the news site folks are busy with their Epic submissions or something…
CJG
**Den: Can I translate the letter?
Luigi Novi: LOL. Nicely done, Den. :-)**
Thank you
Can you ever remember time when a creator, whose work had dramtically increased the monthly sales of the book, was fired in order to “change the direction of the book”???
Well, there was this guy who came aboard Captain America in the late 90’s, who got dumped from the book so Rob Liefeld could take over with the “Heroes Reborn” launch. What was his name again?
Oh yeah.
Well, then there’s the guy who wrote Captain America after “Heroes Reborn” mercifully ended; y’know…the one who had one of his stories so drastically changed he had his name removed from it. Who was he?
Oh yeah.
Y’know…given those instances, I was amazed when Mark Waid came aboard FF (or any Marvel book, for that matter). Something tells me there’ll be ice hockey being played in Dante’s Easy Bake before Waid works with Marvel again.
Ðámņ, Nytwyng, I was going to point that out!
Yeah, I remember that Cap was selling really well under Waid and Garney, which is why so many fans raised a fuss. I also recall that Peter almost left The Incredible Hulk because they wanted the Hulk as part of the Heroes Reborn nonsense too.
The market penetration has never been better with Hollywood pilfering from the House of Ideas. The legacy of the management will be how they allowed egotism to fritter away Marvel’s chance for a mainstream audience.
The Superhero motif is all the more vibrant in these scary times and Hollywood knows it. It is sad that the House that brought us the modern superhero has rejected the premise for attempts to clutch at whatever the new thing is, be it manga or politicking or those old standbys sex and violence.
Dance with the one who brung ya or She won’t be around for you when the music stops.
Yes, Even the ultimate line. Without Bendis and the other talented people it would have blown up in Bill Jemas’s face.
Bendis and Millar ARE the Ultimate line. Those two writers (as well as Bagley, Kubert and Hitch, of course) made gold from what was essentially a bad idea.
Which kind of proves it wasn’t actually a bad idea, then, doesn’t it?
Which kind of proves it wasn’t actually a bad idea, then, doesn’t it?
Kinda depends on how you look at it. If you’re looking at their publicly stated reasons for the line…yeah, it was a bad idea. I mean, the logic doesn’t track. They wanted to eliminate the “convoluted backstory” and “excessive history” of the books to draw in “new readers”…yet this means they’ll need to cancel the line in a few years – regardless of sales – because the line with have accrued a “convoluted backstory” and “excessive history” that allegedly keeps “new readers” away, and it would appear that the bulk of the readers of the “Ultimate” line are, in fact, long-time readers picking up these new titles (if you can consider, f’rinstance, 3.5 years of publication in some cases “new”).
And, if you’re talking about the quality of the books themselves…well…for my money, it was still a bad idea. Ultimate Spider-Man sucked all the life and drama out of a wonderful, magical, legendary origin story to pad it out to 6 issues; Ultimate X-Men turned the characters into interchangable streetwise gang thugs…I don’t see the line’s appeal.
But, hey…just consider it another example of “The New Marvel’s” being quite happy with hype and sort-term success rather than laying a foundation they can build upon for years to come.
And I’m thinkin’ Jemas & Quesada are hoping to bail out before it all comes crashing down.
I don’t see the line’s appeal.
Sorry to hear that. That doesn’t mean it’s bad, just that you don’t like it. Since a number of people do like it, clearly it’s working on some level. A bad idea is one that doesn’t work on any level. (I’m not saying that it’s a 100% perfect idea, but refusing to acknowledge anything but black and white absolutes is the first step into turning into Comic Shop Guy from “The Simpsons.”)
Speaking of absolutes, I wanted to share the link to a response to the Medved article linked to above:
http://www.geocities.com/scottslemmons/captainamerica
Every once and awhile, a really obnoxious person dies and everyone moans about what a great person he was.
Did I mention Waid’s FF was wonderful? No, I guess I never have mentioned that until now. I loved the issues where the FF fought a mathematical equation. Wasn’t that special? Or the time Ben Grimm was shrunk down in order to fight an alien cockroach (see PAD, the Honey I Shrunk the FF idea has alrady been used).
Not to plug on someone else’s board, but to answer the question above, yes, I’m coming back to do the final three issues of Agent X, thanks to the new editor, Marc Sumerak.
Thanks!
Gail
Since a number of people do like it, clearly it’s working on some level. A bad idea is one that doesn’t work on any level.
See, to me, this too is the sort of “black and white absolute” that you caution me to avoid. “If people buy into it, it’s not a bad idea.” And, that kind of thinking is, to me…well, a bad idea. I’d say that there are bad ideas that can still succeed, which would indicate that, while the idea may not have been sound, something in the execution made it work. Likewise, there are plenty of good ideas that don’t succeed.
By way of illustration, let’s look at a little 1992 movie called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Given the relatively poor box office it received and following the “The only bad idea is the idea that doesn’t succeed.” formula, we’d have to say that this particular idea was a bad one. Flash forward a few years, and the movie has spawned a successful tv show, a spin-off tv show, a novel series, video games and assorted other merchandise, not to mention a bidding war between networks, a major-category Emmy nomination, and the launch of (or major boost to) several actors’ careers. All based on the same idea. So, would it be a good idea, or a bad idea?
So, that said, I’ll stand by my original assessment–the “Ultimate” line was (and, for my money, remains) a bad idea that managed to get the right mix of execution and timing to make it a success.
For example, at the time of Ultimate Spider-Man‘s launch, I seem to recall many a reader bemoaning the sad state of the “main” Spidey books. Then, along comes USM, perhaps not quite as bad as its forebears, wrapped in the cloak of, “but it’s new,” and there ya have it. I propose that USM wouldn’t have been as successful if one of the “main” books was more of a “hit” when USM launched. Likewise, Ultimate X-Men. Pure speculation on my part, without a doubt, but that’s what my gut tells me.
I don’t deny the popularity of the line…I just don’t “get” the popularity of the line. 😉
And, all of this is wandering far afield from the issue at hand: Jemas and Quesada are – once again – demonstrating their affinity for high concepts and short-term buzz/popularity over maintaining a long-term success.
um, well in my opinion Jemas hits against him weigh as much as his accomplishments.
I don’t care for any Ulitmate anything I’ve read so far, of course this isn’t to say anything against those who do, it’s jsut my preference.
I DID like Origin.
and I will admit to reading more marvel books than I did say two years ago probably.
(though I’m reading the FF for the first time in several years, which may or may not last after the creative change.)
of course that isn’t saying a whole lot since I can still count them on just one hand.
all I can think of in this affair is something about the forest for the trees.
Green … yucky.
Hulk have purple pants … likes the purple background.
Any chance we can get rid of Jemas and Quesada while there is still a Marvel Comics to rescue?
“I’ve been busy as hëll of late and found my life much more enjoyable these last few months that I’ve avoided Internet message boards, but sometimes things get so out of hand that issues just need to be addressed and tackled head on.”
One wonders how he does it since he has his own website (and practicaly shamed Peter into starting this one) and is a regular poster there.
” but his departure from FF is now being siphoned through inaccuracies,mistaken impressions and hardcore enthusiasts inability to wait for the whole, real story …”
Actualy, it’s based on Waids statments alone, “Marvel called and fired me.”
how do you blame message board reactions for the statments Mark made?
“Over a month ago Bill Jemas asked for a change of direction for the FF monthly title…”
“Bill called up Mark and asked him personally to steer the book
towards a new vision and Mark made it clear that it wasn’t a
direction that he felt he wanted to write in or was comfortable with.”
“As for Bill Jemas writing the monthly FANTASTIC FOUR title, and
the “wacky suburban dramedy” description, with all due respect to Mark, neither is accurate. “
“but it won’t be written by Bill and won’t be as described.”
“I respect Mark for making his decision as I respect Bill for giving Mark the first crack at the new storyline.”
“I’m in no way saying that Mark is misleading the fans, only that he may be mixing up stories he’s heard and judging the new direction on what was a very initial pitch that was circulated over a month ago.
(this one fits in so well next to that last quote, I had to put it in again.)
“Over a month ago Bill Jemas asked for a change of direction for the FF monthly title…”
“This is a change in direction for a Marvel title requested by the man who schemed the Ultimate Universe, had the guts to tell Origin”
“perhaps that’s where the stories get mixed up … “
None of this makes any sence, Waids being fired for not going along with Jemas Direction for the book, That jemas never asked for, but Jemas is a geniuse who had every right to ask for a direction change that Waid mistaekingly thought he asked for?
“I want to get to all of the anti-Epic garbage that has been
hitting the streets. “
why? what has it got to do with Waid and the FF?
“Mark has also been given every opportunity to work on other books
here at Marvel.”
This also has nothing to do with the FF.
mistakenly
genius
God I’ve lost control of my fingers.
//Which kind of proves it wasn’t actually a bad idea, then, doesn’t it?//
Well, but written by Ron Zimmerman and Chuck Austen, it would have been.
I think that the very simple solution to good comic books lies in pairing good concepts and characters with imaginative and talented writers and a gifted artist (and a marketing effort to actually push the books). Ultimate, to me, isn’t about the concept of Everything-old-is-new-again, you could have done something very similar within the confines of the regular series, Amazing Spider-Man ist enjoyable these days because Straczynski is a good writer and has more imaginative ideas of what to do with Peter Parker than Howard Mackie had. No new concept, no relaunch, even the same (brilliant) artist… just good writing and ASM is suddenly a good book again.
What I’m thinking is that with the prospect of an upcoming movie, maybe FF wasn’t selling well enough for the Marvel suits. Maybe the whole Brady-Bunch-FF was just a ruse designed to make Waid angry and force him off the book. Doesn’t really make sense, as they could’ve just fired him anyway… Jesus, this whole thing makes no sense at all, except maybe as a weird kind of negative-spin-marketing-stunt.
Yeah, I remember that Cap was selling really well under Waid and Garney, which is why so many fans raised a fuss.
Funny how I’ve seen the above posted (or words to similar effect) by SEVERAL posters in this and the other NotePAD Entry.
Yet when I mentioned that Marvel’s sales are at a 3 year high under Jemas’ leadership, a whole bunch of people couldn’t wait to post comments to the effect of “sales or popularity doesn’t indicate quality.”
Hmmm..seems some sort of fuzzy logic is afoot here. If the numbers support something you like, they mean quality…but if they don’t, they mean jack-all.
Great work fanboys.
It’s amazing to me that this Waid thing is still generating so much hoopla. I gather that most of you people have been reading comics for some years, if not a very long time.
Creative teams change all the time. I mean, if you get your panties all twisted up everytime one of your favorite writers leaves an assignment…I don’t see how you can be a comic fan and not be confined to an ER with a bleeding ulcer from stress.
Again, I repeat for the billionith (and final time as Joe Q said, its obvious people don’t want to discuss this rationally and instead just flame Jemas and cry bloody murder over jaywalking)…but Jemas (along with Joe Q) has been dictating creative direction on pretty much EVERY Marvel title the past couple years. Some have worked out spectacularly (the Ultimate line, ORIGIN, Uncanny X-men), some have not. What can’t be denied is Marvel is extremely successful right now so I would say that more of those directions are working out than failing (at least to most fans, individual taste always varies).
He wants to try a new take on FF. Waid doesn’t want to write it. Waid left. End of story.
Boycotting the HULK movie or any other such nonsense will do nothing but make you a social outcast when everybody in america has seen it and you have not.
And I like the green webpage. Its easier on the eyes.
Best–Chris
Personally, I don’t see the logic behind all this. While I can see a whacky suburban superhero parody kind of book (especially if written by Peter or Gail or even Keith Giffen) as something worth a try,….
With Giffen, a wacky suburban superhero parody is (at long last) mere months away. Formerly the Justice League! Better grab your oreos cause the other green guy is coming over for a snack.
As for Peter doing wacky superhero parody, I’d say that’s about 50% of his YJ run.
The funniest FF story in about ten years was in Sergio Aragones Massacres Marvel. Everyone quitting every ten seconds…. so funny because it is SO true…. both on and off panel.
Hmmm..seems some sort of fuzzy logic is afoot here. If the numbers support something you like, they mean quality…but if they don’t, they mean jack-all.
You’re right, there is some sort of fuzzy logic afoot here. And Jemas is the one applying it.
I may be mistaken, but I don’t recall anyone saying that sales=quality, but that sales certainly do=popularity. And, in both the Captain America and Fantastic Four cases, the same writer – Mark Waid – took on Marvel titles that had been faced with dwindling sales and turned them around…he increased the sales. Which is, one would conclude, what the goal of putting him on the book was. However, after approximately a year on each book (give or take) – with the increased sales still solid – he has been dismissed to make way for an unneeded creative change.
Yes, Chris, it is within Jemas’ rights to want to try a new direction on FF. I haven’t seen anyone dispute that. What I have seen people suggest is that, wanting to change the direction of a successful book just out of the blue does not make sense, period, let alone good business sense, which you seem to feel Jemas possesses.
Please tell us how changing a successful product makes good business sense.
If Jemas were wanting to make a change in, say, Thunderbolts (given its current direction), I don’t think you’d be seeing such a backlash. However, he’s wanting to change a title that – by the yardstick Marvel uses to measure: sales – is working as is.
And that just doesn’t make sense.
I’ve enjoyed Waid’s take on the FF, right from the get go. I think that Reed’s “bedtime story” for Val was the single best piece of characterization that he’s ever received. (For those who don’t remember, it started “Once a very smart man did a very stupid thing.”)
If you boil the water out of the story, it appears that you get this set of events:
1) Jemas calls Waid, requesting a new direction for the book.
2) Waid demurs, but subsequently works out an idea with his editor, Tom Brevoort, that might satisfy the request. Apparently, that idea will be seeing print for six issues ending with #508.
3) Jemas fires Waid.
4) Quesada posts, explaining that Waid has been fired, but that the idea that Jemas gave Waid which Waid tried to comply with is not the new direction of the book at all. Which would certainly make one wonder why Waid was fired…
You get the feeling that something here makes zero sense, don’t you?
I think this whole news is distasteful. I may drop FF even sooner than I thought, thanks to Bill Jemas’s shameless meddling. I’m telling you people, he has got to go already, ditto Joe Quesada.
Okay, the open letter reeks of DAMAGE CONTROL. People are pìššëd b/c the book was good and now the Marvel higher-ups wanted a change? WHY CHANGE A GOOD BOOK? What is wrong with the direction that the book was heading in? That is the question that no one has been able to answer!
–Michael
Things get weirder-
From The Pulse:
NEW FF WRITER TAKES THE STAGE
BY HEIDI MACDONALD
The Pulse has learned that currently the new writer on FANTASTIC FOUR is planned to be Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa, a fast-rising young playwright.
He made headlines earlier this year for his play “Archie’s Weird Fantasy” in which the Riverdale High gang is all grown up. The story featured Archie as a gay man involved with two men, including real life spree killer Nathan Leopold. Other characters were based on jimmy Olsen and Fredric Werthem. Objections from Archie Comics forced the production to change its name to “Weird Comic Book Fantasy” and the characters’ names to be changed, but the play received good notices.
Aguirre-Sacasa is the winner of a 2002 Roger L. Stevens Award from the Kennedy Center for “The Mystery Play”, which he based on the traditions of Medieval mystery plays. He is a graduate of the Yale School of Drama and has received numerous fellowships and a Helen Hayes award for “Muckle Man.” His other works for the stage include “Say You Love Satan”, “Bigfoot Loves Swamp Thing”, “Bride of Bigfoot”, “Son of Bigfoot”, “The Ten-Minute Play About Rosemary
Hi, me again…
over on something called Slushfactory.com, there is an interview were Joe Q talks about the Waid firing. He dosn’t deny that Waid was asked to write the “dramady”, and is asked what he thinks of what Mr David had to say on the issue. But mostly, he talks around everything.
http://www.slushfactory.com/content/EpVVAZEpFZtPLFBKlD.php
“…Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa, a fast-rising young playwright.
He made headlines earlier this year for his play “Archie’s Weird Fantasy” in which the Riverdale High gang is all grown up. The story featured Archie as a gay man involved with two men,…”
Ooooooo-kay. So he thinks he can just take anybody’s property and use it and change it as he pleases. Isn’t that similar to plagiarism? Or is there a stronger word for it?
He also wrote a play about Satan’s son who, by strange coincidence, was also gay. These could be happy times for the Fantastic Four, especially for Johnny Storm.
In better news, FF Masterworks are being released over the next few months. The first 60 issues of Kirby/Lee.
“Ooooooo-kay. So he thinks he can just take anybody’s property and use it and change it as he pleases. Isn’t that similar to plagiarism?”
Absolutely not, if he’s not using trademarked characters. Parody, pastiche and riffing on established characters have long been used in all parts of theatre, literature, film, etc.
Don’t let your distaste for Jemas (well motivated as it is) spill over onto the reported incoming writer; judge him by his work.
On a serious note, I’m happy to see someone being recruited from the theatre (as a former theatre guy myself). I’m still not happy regarding the circumstances and think this is a situation where Jemas and Quesada are taking some well-deserved heat for both their attitudes towards fans and some questionable decisions.
On a silly note, judging by the new writer’s body of work, there may be some newly added meanings when Johhny Storm says, “Flame on!”
Budd
AN: Have you read Peter David’s take over at peterdavid.malibulist.com? And would you agree that at least his analysis is fair, if perhaps incorrect in one or more ways?
JQ: Didn’t read it until you just sent me the link. Let me clear this up as I believe I did with the previous answer. Bill was never scheduled or ever planned to write the book – PERIOD! If he was planning to write the book WHY COME TO MARK WITH THE CONCEPT AND ASK HIM TO WRITE IT? What IS happening is that Bill, a couple of our other creators and I are working on a fun FF project together, something that will hopefully dovetail with the movie and see the light of day next year.
http://www.slushfactory.com/content/EpVVAZEpFZtPLFBKlD.php
Rich Johnston writes:
Waid also said he’d been told Jemas would replace him.
Later this week, Joe Quesada denied that aspect of the story. But I have had a number of conversations with prominent industry figures connected with Marvel that confirm Bill Jemas was to have been replacing Mark Waid on Fantastic Four. However, in the light of the immense fuss on the internet, that’s either no longer the case, or he’ll be co-writing the title, uncredited.
http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/tommy43.html
wow.
how… dumb.
Fact: Marvel Comics, across their range, are more interesting right now than they have ever been.
(Secondary fact: sales still suck.)
Fact: Marvel Comics is taking chances and extending itself.
(Secondary fact: sometimes the business decisions that pursue this are unpopular)
(Tertiary fact: just because a business decision is unpopular doesn’t mean it’s unwise)
Fact: the *only* interesting thing about this is why Waid’s commercially and critically successful run is being cut short for something that may not be as commercially or critically successful, which seems to make no sense.
(Secondary fact: ‘fandom’, once again, is shown to be full of foolish unthinking ‘thought’)
~`morgue
So now, after all the dust has settled, we have a new writer & artist, the same direction for the book, and a whole lot of p-o’d readers.
Way to go Marvel.
I have the perfect solution to this whole mess: RE-HIRE JIM SHOOTER!!!!