I should have kept my big mouth shut.
I am attending the New York Comic Con and was on a panel about gays in comic books (characters, not creators, although half of the panel was in fact gay.) Everything was going fine. We all chatted about the subject for forty five minutes and then we threw it open to the audience for questions. And that’s where it went off the rails.
The second person to speak then proceeded to do one of the things that I always tell people not to do: rather than ask a question, he began a rambling speech about the Romamni and the way they are portrayed in comics, and eventually got around to saying that he hoped we would strive to give the Romani a fair shake in our books.
Now if I had half a brain, what I would have said was:
“Well, as I recall, Quicksilver is Romani. And everyone hated him until X-Factor #87, and after that issue came out, everyone loved him. So I’m certainly doing my part.” And everyone would have applauded and we could have moved on to the next question.
But no.
Now trying to turn a discussion of LGBTQ concerns into a discussion of Romani concerns seemed dubious at best considering that the Romani law despises homosexuality. But that is a debate for another time.
The larger problem was that suddenly my mind flashed back to 1993, when I was in Romania, in Bucharest, for the filming of a movie there. I was being guided around and then I saw something. And I wrote about it back then, and I will reprint the pertinent section here:
We go into the department store, take the escalator to the third floor. As we pass the second, I can’t believe what I see.
A child, a girl, somewhere between five and eight years old, is following her mother, calling after her. Her skin is dark. She might have been beautiful, if given a chance.
She is on her knees. Walking on her knees.
Sort of.
Her legs don’t bend back. They are bent forward, at the knees.
Her body is teetering at about an 80 degree angle, like a Gumby or a collapsing marionette. She half-pulls, half-shuffles along, sliding on her calves.
My guide sees what I’ve spotted. His face is impassive.
“What the hëll is wrong with her?” I whisper. Grasping at the only explanation I can, I say, “Chernobyl?”
“Gypsies,” he replies.
I don’t understand, and tell him so.
“You see a lot of gypsy children like that,” he explains. “When they’re a few months old, sometimes their parents break their knees or their elbows, or put out an eye. They figure it will help them make more money when they beg.”
I nod.
We are looking at chairs, but I’m picturing a child who looks like my eight-year-old daughter, walking on reversed knees, calves scraping along the floor making sounds like sandpaper. We are buying the chairs, but I’m picturing a baby who looks like the smiling one waiting for me at home, howling as a mallet or a sledge hammer or maybe a jagged rock shatters her joints.
We get the chairs, and go out a different exit. There’s another gypsy child, begging. A boy. His legs go the wrong way. I’m in a Stephen King novel and can’t close it. I take his picture from behind, unable to face him.
I buy a case of Coke for the cast, get back into the van, and almost break down.
I return to the set but am unable to remain. I can’t get into filming make believe. A number of off-duty cast members are going into town. I go with them.
We see no more Roger Corman-esque children. But there is one boy, begging, who is being yanked to his feet by his father, yelling at the boy and clearly prepared to cuff him because however much money he might have taken in to that point, it obviously wasn’t enough.
Clabe Hartley, who portrays our main villain, is watching. Clabe has a stone-cold dangerous stare. Clearly he’s considering whether or not to make a move. Clabe’s in terrific shape, versed in various fighting techniques; he could take the guy apart. The problem is that Clabe would wind up in jail, and the child would wind up in traction or on a slab when his father got through taking out his humiliation on the boy.
I’m not sure whether the father is aware Clabe is observing him. Perhaps he is, because abruptly he settles for yanking the boy to his feet and dragging him away. Clabe paces him for half a block, moving like a panther, still weighing options, before slowing and turning away.
There’s nothing he can do.
Nothing anyone can do.
All of that went through my brain and cold anger ripped through my head. I growled, “You really want to do this?” and suddenly the crowd got very quiet.
I related what I had seen twenty-plus years ago. As I spoke I became more and more furious, remembering it so vividly.
The guy tried to talk back, and I didn’t want to hear it. I said we were done talking about it. He kept trying to pursue it. And I blew my stack. Twenty years of remembering what I had seen bubbled over and I shouted at him that we were moving on to the next question.
People were visibly stunned. I had never gone off on a fan in thirty years of being a professional, and believe me, plenty had tried to provoke me. The panel then moved on and at the end I apologized to the audience for losing my temper.
It wasn’t enough, of course. The internet erupted. “Peter David goes off on racist rant!” Everyone expressed disapproval, scowled because I’d been upset.
I guess my question is:
Why are people angry that I got upset about the crippling of children?
Was I right to shout at the guy? Of course not. I don’t believe for a moment that he endorses the behavior. That’s why I apologized.
But am I sorry that the thought of what poor Romani are doing in Bucharest still upsets me to this day? Causes me to have such an angry, visceral reaction? Not for a second. The question shouldn’t be, Why did I get angry? The question should be, Why didn’t others get angry?
Do I believe Romani should be persecuted? Of course not. The way I’ve written Romani characters should make that obvious.
But this is the 21st century, and in the 21st century, you’re not allowed to form an opinion based upon things you’ve been told by people who live there, and things you’ve seen with your own eyes, and photographs you’ve taken. Apparently the only thing that matters is the sensitivities of activists, and if you take issue with actions that the people they represent have taken, then clearly there is something wrong with you.
Screw it. If people want to declare that I hate the Romani, fine. I’ll log that right in with Peter David hates Catholics (even though my wife and youngest daughter are Catholic, the latter about to celebrate her confirmation) and Peter David is anti-Semitic (even though I’m Jewish) and Peter David hates gays (that one’s my favorite because it broke during the exact same month that I got a GLAAD Media Award.)
And maybe in this case it might have some positive effect. Maybe it will prompt people to actually do some research and get into Bucharest and save these children from abusive parents who see them solely as a means of begging. Maybe something positive will come from it.
You tell me.
PAD
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You, sir are a racist and a bigot. Good day.
There is nothing racist nor bigoted about what Peter related. You sir, are an idiot. Good day.
I said Good Day!
Mr. David,
In case you were unaware, Romanian citizens enslaved and sold ethnic Romani people for 500 years. I mention this simply to put in perspective the fact that in Romania, the population as a whole reacts to Roma people much in the same way southern racists in the US react to Black people—with hatred, oppression and intolerance based on generalizations and stereotypes. (And for the record, the word G*psy is a racial slur that is equal to using the ‘N’ word for a Black person. It is a painful word rooted in slavery and oppression used to demean and degrade.)
While I completely understand that what your tour guide told you stuck in your mind and played on your emotions—(an understandable thing that shows you are a decent human being to worry about children in such a manner), however you were visiting a country that is known for its a) Antiziganistic practices (forced sterilization, walled in ghettos, segregated schools in which Roma children are put in ‘special ed’ because they are animals that are too stupid to learn, refusal to render medical aide to Roma people, etc—the list goes on and on and on), and b)centuries of enslavement towards the ethnicity in question. In such an instance, one simply cannot take the word of a tour guide as gospel truth—that would be akin to touring the state of Alabama with a member of the KKK serving as your guide and automatically believing/buying into the vile racist propaganda said guide spewed out about Black people. If you were to see those same crippled children living in the USA would you automatically believe a stranger telling you such a wild notion—or would you take into consideration their poverty stricken environment ( hard to get a job when the racists won’t hire you because of your ethnicity! ) and realize that perhaps their physical disabilities have more to do with being unable to afford adequate medical care and nutrition? In light of the ongoing issues in Romania (Moltov cocktails being thrown at Roma settlements/brutal physical attacks on Roma men, women and children leaving them badly disfigured if not dead) I would say that oppression and the kind of racism your tour guide expressed probably had far more to do with the children’s situation than ‘parents breaking their knees or their elbows, or putting out eyes’. Our children are our greatest treasure; they insure our culture and heritage will live on in the next generation and beyond—and we want them to grow up seeing positive representation in the media, in a world where they are not persecuted for their ethnicity. We simply want the very best for them—a sentiment that I am sure every parent across the globe can understand and appreciate.
Respectfully,
A long time ROMANI fan
Great job of ignoring what Peter said!
HE SAW IT.
WITH HIS OWN EYES.
I saw things like that when I lived in Spain. All the political gobbledy-gook in the world means NOTHING when you see children abused like that.
The fact that you bring up all this history when there are children RIGHT NOW being tortured for money… I’m glad I’m not one of your kids.
1) I clearly addressed my comment to Mr. David, did I not? I mean… I’m pretty sure it says MR. DAVID right at the beginning of my comment. I take it you were never informed that it’s rude to insert yourself on conversations? Kindly refrain from attempting to oppress a Roma voice in this discourse.
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2) Of course you’re glad you aren’t one of my children—if you were you would be Roma and subject to all the discrimination and bigotry that is heaped upon my people based on damaging anti-Roma stereotypes and urban myths like this one that are retold as gospel fact.
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3) Perhaps you need to read Mr. David’s most recent blog post in which he acknowledges the fact there could be far more to the story than he thought. Additionally you probably need to reread the original post, since he clearly states he the incident happened years ago—not RIGHT NOW, as you so emphatically state.
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4) It’s astounding to me that so many people (like you!) now loudly proclaim to care about Roma children being abused, yet in 1990 when 20/20 and 60 minutes did stories on the 200,000 Romanian and Roma children that were living in state sanctioned orphanages… there was silence. Those children were living in inhumane conditions, going without heat, proper clothing and with minimal food and medical care… yet everyone turned a blind eye to the suffering. Everyone ignored the fact those same orphans were being sold to the highest bidder by the Romanian government to White families. You all looked the other way when the news broke that over 40% of said children had HIV—not because of their parents using drugs—but because employees of the Romanian government working in the orphanages decided giving sickly children blood transfusions would be good for their health. Where was your pious outrage when they continued to inject helpless infants and toddlers with tainted, untested diseased ridden blood year after year?
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You will have to excuse me if I cannot put much stock in these statements or claims of caring about abused children TODAY—you see, I am still trying to get my head around the fact that for the last 30 years, everyone has IGNORED what was laid out before them, totally disregarding the plight of those poor orphaned children who were dying in the metal cribs where they were left to lay in their own wastes for days on end.
” It’s astounding to me that so many people (like you!) now loudly proclaim to care about Roma children being abused, yet in 1990 when 20/20 and 60 minutes”
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Yes, of course…
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Because you know what everyone commenting on the matter here and elsewhere was doing, thinking, feeling, concerned with, and focusing on 26 years ago.
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O.o
I take it you were never informed that it’s rude to insert yourself on conversations?
I take it you were never informed that it’s rude to insult your host when you are in their home?
Because that’s all that several of you have done since you appeared out of thin air to post on PAD’s blog.
Mr. David I have a lot of respect for your talent and your integrity. I don’t think your outrage over what you saw and heard about the treatment of some Rromani children was wrong.
But I do think your actions to Mr. Vicente Rodriguez were unkind to the point of cruelty.
His “rambling speech” (as you term it) took care to praise Marvel’s work on representation, and to lay the groundwork for his point about how Rromani characters are represented.
Mr. Rodriguez (who is unnamed in your post) was in no way supporting the actions of bad people from any cultural group. He was questioning representation of Rromani people on the whole. Isn’t any group of people comprised of both good and bad? Aren’t we supposed to consider the good in how we characterize others? And isn’t a panel about representation a good place to bring such a discussion to?
Except it wasn’t a discussion. You used your power and your podium to shout him down. You let the rage you felt over the actions of some bad people entitle you to bully a good man that was trying to do some good. And that was wrong.
You may have apologized to the audience, but Mr. Rodriguez deserves an apology as well.
No, he doesn’t. Not at all. The panel was about a certain subject. Mr. Rodriguez tried to change the subject. He deserved to be shut down.
If you knew of the panel you’d know that wasn’t the case, second– institutionalized sexism, racism, and LGBTphobia go hand in hand. — he (a straight man) what’s a pat on the back for writing some šhìŧ about us LGBTfolks but is a mega racist? LOL what a joke. Never buying your comics again.
Mr. David… Earlier I posted about my disappointment… Well, my girlfriend (who, as I mentioned earlier, is Romani) is home from work, and I read your words to her. Her reply was that she agrees with what you said, and she doesn’t understand why people are upset with you. And so… Well… Obviously it is a sensitive subject, and tempers are flaring, but as you say the important thing should be that IF there are children suffering, no matter what the cause, something should be done to alleviate that.
It’s an extremely complicated issue. It’s also one that’s an extremely delicate one. There are legitimate issue that need addressed on more levels and on more sides than just one.
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But the blow up over this is a perfect example why getting s discussion and moving towards solutions on many issues is less pleasant than hitting your head repeatedly with a 2X4. There’s actually a fairly sensible group in the middle who can see the problems and would be willing to address them, but on either side of them they have two very loud and obnoxious sides.
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On one side is a loud obnoxious minority who want to scream that “they” (whoever they are) are all like that. On the other side is a loud obnoxious minority who want to scream that “they” (whoever they are)are being maligned and that no such thing has ever taken place.
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Then all the people who might be able to help fix both the matter of the actual problems as well as the issue of unfair persecution look from the outside in on the debate about ‘X’ and just shrug because all they can see are idiots foaming at the mouth.
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To quote Douglas Adams-
“To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.”
Well, I’ll never disagree with a good Douglas Adams quote. After all, he’s the reason I have to refer to Peter David very specifically as my favorite LIVING author.
It’s not complicated. He’s racist. When people say it’s complicated, you’re justifying him. You’re saying “we’ll he’s sorta right but isn’t.” News flash. He’s stupid, knows nothing of the matter, is a šhìŧ writer, and a racist. Not that hard to get.The racism my people face is simple. WE DON’T DESERVED IT. Nobody deserves to be oppressed. Second we’re not “loud”, Romani people are fûçkëd over by society they can’t even afford to be loud, without fear. We were slaves as long if not longer as African-Americans/Blacks in the USA and we were the 2nd most killed in the Holocaust and today segregation is LEGAL and practiced in various parts of Europe. Our “jim crow” is still going on. Anyway you know nothing.
Mark, read today’s (Oct. 10) blog. Mr. David settled down, looked at the available evidence for what has been happening in Romania, admitted that he had been wrong, an apologized. The man is not perfect (who is?) but he is not a racist or a bigot and takes responsibility for his mistakes. Can you do the same?
No, I say it’s complicated because it’s complicated and complex, Mark.
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I say that based on conversations with someone who claims the same lineage you do. See here-
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http://www.peterdavid.net/2016/10/08/me-and-my-big-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-943818
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For that matter, read Yotsuyasan’s post above yours. His girlfriend is Romani and apparently thinks it’s a more complex an issue to look at than you do.
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Claiming such a thing isn’t complicated is great fro the screamers who want to shout and be loud, but it does little good in actually addressing the issue- much like your attitude.
Yotsuyasan– just wanted to say that after all the ranting and posturing and general meanness displayed in so many of the posts–not excluding myself from that characterization–it’s refreshing to read what you wrote.
You and Jerry are correct, it’s a complicated issue and unfortunately the default action these days is to either assume malevolence in others, demand recognition of victim status, or preferably both. I can well understand how Roma would hate to be lumped in with the worst of their ethnicity, as any group of people would and Peter could have handled the whole things better, as he has said but a lot of this seems like a classic example of virtue signaling.
Anyway, kudos on your thoughtful addendum. I hope nobody takes it as an opportunity to double down on the hate.
I’m probably using a bad computer or otherwise doing something wrong, but comments #2 through about #130 seem to have vanished.
Mark,
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Scroll down a bit and look directly under the comments and to the left. You should see this-
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« Older Comments
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That will take you to the previous page of comments.
It takes me back to a page that gives the 1st comment, and says there’s only 1 comment. It’s generally been like this for months and months; I’ve tried different computers & browsers, no change.
Last night, it finally loaded everything as it should a couple of times, but it seems to be less predictable than a Trump speech, as it’s back to not loading the comments again this morning.
I get the same thing as Craig does. At some point the blog became very difficult to navigate.
I managed to see those comments the other day but it took some crazy combination of reloads and whatnot.
I’m getting that as well now. It seems to have happened about te same time the archive formating went wonky.
I’m getting that as well now. It seems to have happened about te same time the archive formatting went wonky.
Mr. David,
I’m a longtime fan of your work. I recently admitted to a friend that I regret not visiting a local convention that you attended because I’d love to have the opportunity to meet the writer behind some stories I’ve enjoyed (and to offer condolences for the unjustly canceled recent X-Factor run).
Having said that, I understand where this criticism is coming from. What you witnessed was horrific, and given the framing for the situation provided by your tour guide, I would have been shocked. The criticism isn’t of your reaction, it’s for uncritically accepting the tour guide’s account of what you were seeing and applying that horror to an entire ethnic group.
No one is telling you that you’re in the wrong to be aghast at the idea of the crippling of children. But that observation and explanation of something you saw in Bucharest twenty years ago was presented as your take on Romani people. I have no way of determining the truth of what you were told, but with such an extraordinary claim, I’d caution you to be wary of tarring an entire people with that recollection, even if it were true in this case.
I’d wonder what could bring someone to do that to a child, and whether those motivations are really a result of someone’s ethnicity, their culture, and not something more insidious. I would think the million or so Romani people living in the US, your main audience for written work, would have trouble relating to the motivations ascribed to the people you saw.
You may have been rash in your response but you are not wrong in your viewpoint. Those claiming “oppression” have never suffered true pain nor do they know what a life of hopelessness and misery really entails.
Mr. David,
I humbly request that you delete all of my posted comments in this entire thread, as well as in your “Final thoughts on the Romani…” post as well.
Thank you,
–Chris Quinn