I should have kept my big mouth shut.
I am attending the New York Comic Con and was on a panel about gays in comic books (characters, not creators, although half of the panel was in fact gay.) Everything was going fine. We all chatted about the subject for forty five minutes and then we threw it open to the audience for questions. And that’s where it went off the rails.
The second person to speak then proceeded to do one of the things that I always tell people not to do: rather than ask a question, he began a rambling speech about the Romamni and the way they are portrayed in comics, and eventually got around to saying that he hoped we would strive to give the Romani a fair shake in our books.
Now if I had half a brain, what I would have said was:
“Well, as I recall, Quicksilver is Romani. And everyone hated him until X-Factor #87, and after that issue came out, everyone loved him. So I’m certainly doing my part.” And everyone would have applauded and we could have moved on to the next question.
But no.
Now trying to turn a discussion of LGBTQ concerns into a discussion of Romani concerns seemed dubious at best considering that the Romani law despises homosexuality. But that is a debate for another time.
The larger problem was that suddenly my mind flashed back to 1993, when I was in Romania, in Bucharest, for the filming of a movie there. I was being guided around and then I saw something. And I wrote about it back then, and I will reprint the pertinent section here:
We go into the department store, take the escalator to the third floor. As we pass the second, I can’t believe what I see.
A child, a girl, somewhere between five and eight years old, is following her mother, calling after her. Her skin is dark. She might have been beautiful, if given a chance.
She is on her knees. Walking on her knees.
Sort of.
Her legs don’t bend back. They are bent forward, at the knees.
Her body is teetering at about an 80 degree angle, like a Gumby or a collapsing marionette. She half-pulls, half-shuffles along, sliding on her calves.
My guide sees what I’ve spotted. His face is impassive.
“What the hëll is wrong with her?” I whisper. Grasping at the only explanation I can, I say, “Chernobyl?”
“Gypsies,” he replies.
I don’t understand, and tell him so.
“You see a lot of gypsy children like that,” he explains. “When they’re a few months old, sometimes their parents break their knees or their elbows, or put out an eye. They figure it will help them make more money when they beg.”
I nod.
We are looking at chairs, but I’m picturing a child who looks like my eight-year-old daughter, walking on reversed knees, calves scraping along the floor making sounds like sandpaper. We are buying the chairs, but I’m picturing a baby who looks like the smiling one waiting for me at home, howling as a mallet or a sledge hammer or maybe a jagged rock shatters her joints.
We get the chairs, and go out a different exit. There’s another gypsy child, begging. A boy. His legs go the wrong way. I’m in a Stephen King novel and can’t close it. I take his picture from behind, unable to face him.
I buy a case of Coke for the cast, get back into the van, and almost break down.
I return to the set but am unable to remain. I can’t get into filming make believe. A number of off-duty cast members are going into town. I go with them.
We see no more Roger Corman-esque children. But there is one boy, begging, who is being yanked to his feet by his father, yelling at the boy and clearly prepared to cuff him because however much money he might have taken in to that point, it obviously wasn’t enough.
Clabe Hartley, who portrays our main villain, is watching. Clabe has a stone-cold dangerous stare. Clearly he’s considering whether or not to make a move. Clabe’s in terrific shape, versed in various fighting techniques; he could take the guy apart. The problem is that Clabe would wind up in jail, and the child would wind up in traction or on a slab when his father got through taking out his humiliation on the boy.
I’m not sure whether the father is aware Clabe is observing him. Perhaps he is, because abruptly he settles for yanking the boy to his feet and dragging him away. Clabe paces him for half a block, moving like a panther, still weighing options, before slowing and turning away.
There’s nothing he can do.
Nothing anyone can do.
All of that went through my brain and cold anger ripped through my head. I growled, “You really want to do this?” and suddenly the crowd got very quiet.
I related what I had seen twenty-plus years ago. As I spoke I became more and more furious, remembering it so vividly.
The guy tried to talk back, and I didn’t want to hear it. I said we were done talking about it. He kept trying to pursue it. And I blew my stack. Twenty years of remembering what I had seen bubbled over and I shouted at him that we were moving on to the next question.
People were visibly stunned. I had never gone off on a fan in thirty years of being a professional, and believe me, plenty had tried to provoke me. The panel then moved on and at the end I apologized to the audience for losing my temper.
It wasn’t enough, of course. The internet erupted. “Peter David goes off on racist rant!” Everyone expressed disapproval, scowled because I’d been upset.
I guess my question is:
Why are people angry that I got upset about the crippling of children?
Was I right to shout at the guy? Of course not. I don’t believe for a moment that he endorses the behavior. That’s why I apologized.
But am I sorry that the thought of what poor Romani are doing in Bucharest still upsets me to this day? Causes me to have such an angry, visceral reaction? Not for a second. The question shouldn’t be, Why did I get angry? The question should be, Why didn’t others get angry?
Do I believe Romani should be persecuted? Of course not. The way I’ve written Romani characters should make that obvious.
But this is the 21st century, and in the 21st century, you’re not allowed to form an opinion based upon things you’ve been told by people who live there, and things you’ve seen with your own eyes, and photographs you’ve taken. Apparently the only thing that matters is the sensitivities of activists, and if you take issue with actions that the people they represent have taken, then clearly there is something wrong with you.
Screw it. If people want to declare that I hate the Romani, fine. I’ll log that right in with Peter David hates Catholics (even though my wife and youngest daughter are Catholic, the latter about to celebrate her confirmation) and Peter David is anti-Semitic (even though I’m Jewish) and Peter David hates gays (that one’s my favorite because it broke during the exact same month that I got a GLAAD Media Award.)
And maybe in this case it might have some positive effect. Maybe it will prompt people to actually do some research and get into Bucharest and save these children from abusive parents who see them solely as a means of begging. Maybe something positive will come from it.
You tell me.
PAD
• 
You forgot “Peter David has a Mistress” because you were sharing a hotel room with your sister….
My underage mistress, actually. Even though she was in her mid 20s.
PAD
And if we see such things and don’t point them out, then they will be repeated and exacerbated. From generation to generation, such atrocities have occurred; and from generation to generation, light must shown on these so that those whose hearts and minds would abominate such occurrences can learn of them and act against them.
Mr. David, I doubt that anyone would fault you for losing your cool (especially when you had enough class to apologize.) However, your experiences entitle you to a rare point of view and it should be demonstrated.
This story, and a couple of scenes from “Slumdog Millionaire” convince me more and more that there are real monsters in this world. Thanks for an effort to drag them kicking and screaming into public view.
Experience wins over opinion every time, but the pyrrhic nature of the victory isn’t always worth it. I’ve been a similar situation where someone was speaking about something that I have a lot of experience with through my wife, and I kinda lost it. Shut the guy up, but in the end nothing changed.
The man who spoke is Romani. Mr David failed to mention that. How is that not the greatest experience?
WHAT?? Peter David has NO experience of Roma culture. That was a Roma person he was talking to. I think the Roma audience member has a bit more experience about Roma Culture.
Then he should be ashamed that his people do such things.
Because it’s not like an anti-ziganist tour guide would lie about such things rather than admit that Roma people are treated like šhìŧ…
I think you were entitled to this. So was the audience. There are so many people promoting causes that have no real knowledge of what they’re promoting. Admittedly, this kind of child abuse is not well known and there’s probably little we can do about it, since we’re not in Romania and have problems of our own. But for someone to stand up and proclaim he’s a champion of the Romani, without realizing all of what that means, is abysmal. And to say nothing about it in reply is also abysmal. I’m reminded that you’re a Friend of Ellison. Be proud of that, and of your Ellison-like righteous outrage.
The guy is Romani who spoke. Mr. David failed to mention that
The person who asked about Romani reprentation identified himself as a romani person, so I guess he knows more than a little bit about Romani.
What? no real knowledge of what they are promoting? Not blaming 12 million people for the criminal behavior of one man toward his children, really? Excuse me, but how dare you assume he is not a champion of the Romani. He knows exactly what he is talking about and hundreds of people who know him personally will back him up. How dare you even say, “without realizing all of what that means.” What does it mean, to speak up for Americans to the global community and say we don’t all support Trump? Not realizing what that means? Really? You’re in denial. A mistake was made. Admit it. Correct it and move on.
Thomas,, my friend who asked the question is Iberian Kale. He was born and raised in Spain. He permanently lives in Spain. He is full-blooded Romani and experiences prejudice for it everyday. He’s not a SJW, so shut your face. I doubt you even watched the video.
There’s nothing righteous about David’s outrage. You have no idea how my people are forced into these situations
–Singed an actual Hungarian-born Vlach Rom (singular male) who had to be adopted by White Americans, just so he could have a chance at a decent life because no one in Hungary wanted me.
(P.S.–The government also failed to provide me with adequate medical care, despite the fact that I was an innocent ifanant and ward of the state. Once again, I am full-blooded Hungarian Roma, one of the OG Romani subgroups. I’m a descent of the first Rom who formed the Roma who eventually dispersed and became the Romani, which consists of other ethnic and national subgroups with their own co-cultures. My friend in the video has experienced far worse than me.
Where’s my original comment…?
Anyway, Thomas, look:
My friend who asked the question to the panel is Iberian Kale. Spanish born and 100% Romani. He’s full-blooded and actually grew up in Spain. Spain is where he legally lives, works and studies. He is not White or American or White American or White European. In no way is he Caucasian or non-Romani. He is not a Spanish-American Romani, or a Spaniard with dual citizenship. He is a real Rom. More importantly, he is not a SJW or PC loser. He is 100% Romani and has faced serious prejudice.
–Signed an actual Hungarian-born, full-blooded Vlach Rom (singular male Roma).
Could it be possible that your guide was wrong, and maybe being a little racist, in attributing this kind of behavior solely to Romani people? It obviously happens, but could it be just a thing a very small percentage of poor people of all stripes do in Eastern Europe sometimes, but gets stereotypically attributed to the Romani because that’s what always happens to them?? And if so, isn’t it understandable that people would be offended by the perpetrating of that stereotype?
Just food for thought.
Read up on the Bucharest Romani. I think you’ll be shocked.
PAD
“Read up”
I work with Roma very closely. I didn’t just visit Romania once or “read up”. I was accepted into a family and have worked closely in that community for 2 years. But like you said, you don’t care about Roma voices(or even the voices of their allies). The real horror stories are how Romanians treat their Roma.
It’s well know that Roma in Eastern European countries like Romania are victims of oppression and racism, so very likely what you saw may or may not have been what was described to you, but ALMOST CERTAINLY what was described to you was the product of vehement racism. I can with almost 100% CERTAINTY tell you that the person who told you that said that with the hatred of Romani people in his heart.
You, Peter David, are a perpetuator of hundreds of years of racism and oppression by repeating this story, of which you have no definitive proof, except you saw some people in horrible conditions and someone told you a horrific story about it. And you believed it because white people will believe anything about those they think are lesser than they.
You are a disgusting racist, you are a bully, and I hope this outburst of yours finally educates people about who you really are.
As a researcher at the University of Brighton, investigating the lived experiences of Romani LGBTIQ from a queer theoretical perspective, I can assure you that the ‘Romani law’ (you probably mean Romani criss which is used in some Romani communities only) does not despise homosexuality. Roma are not more homophobic or transphobic than non-Roma, you will find homophobia everywhere, particularly in conservative and close-knit communities, including Christian and other communities. Roma are not an exception but please don’t say that the Romani law despises homosexuality. I do hope that some of my Romani LGBTIQ friends and acquaintances will write you on here and clarify the issue.
I think the only thing that would shock anyone at this point is if you actually apologized for your racism.
Very well. I’m sorry you think concern about child abuse is racism.
Mr. David,
As a scholar and lawyer, being Rrom, I have read some about Romanian Rromanies. Among others, I wrote a few years ago an article about their legal status from their arrival on the today’s Romania land until 1856 (i.e. slavery). As an activist, I am in everyday contact with Rromanies from Romania who have migrated here in France. Therefore, I have a view on the situation that is made of both by readings and personal direct contacts and observation. I won’t blame Romanians as a whole because I don’t do to others what I don’t whant to be done to me. This being said, all those who have a first hand experience with “Bucharest Romani” and with Romania’s Rromanies can tell you the impact of the dehumanisation due to the 5 centuries long slavery, an impact that is very vivid today, as the subject has never been really treated with the necessary calm and seriousness. One cannot process the information one get in Romania/by Romanians without being aware of this dehumanization and racism that parasitizes the thinking.
Now, as you mentioned Rromani law as being homophobic, other people here responded on that point and I have nothing to add on this particular point. However, there is another one which is fundamental and particularly useful in the current situation. In its principle, in its fundament, Rromani law (kris) is not a punitive but a reparative one. In a conflict, the priority of the traditional judges is the recovery of the situation as it was before the conflict, to all the possible extent. In my opinion, this is what we (I mean both you, Vicente and other Rromanies involved) should seek for. Of course, I am not speaking about setting a Kris with traditional judges, as it can’t be done but when both parties are Rromani. I just wanted to say that within our culture, so disfigured, we have among others this element that can help us on both sides to overcome this very unpleasant situation.
To answer your comment below, of course it is not racism to care about children. However, the best ever intentions can lead to the worst consequences when they are not backed up with the necessary knowledge. It was with Enlightenment’s ideas that Maria Theresa, the Empress of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, took away massively Rromani children from their parents in 18th century, what is a genocide.
Be sure Mr. David, all the Rromani people who commented here (I know personally a few of them), as well as many others, have a lot to bring to your work. It is not about me, nor about them. It is about the Rromani children I am sure you care of sincerely, and many of them get inspired by superheroes, like all children.
i hate german people too because in 1945 they killed millions of people… so yeahh.. fûçk logic
Peter,
I was going to post on some thread about how you’ve gotten a lot more… prickly, I guess is the word, as you’ve aged. The first time I met you (at New York Is Book Country, which tells you how long ago it was), you were grouchy in a funny, sincere, “that’s how I always imagined this guy to be” sort of way.
Lately, though, it seems like you don’t have the time or patience for anyone else’s garbage anymore.
Maybe that’s a privilege that comes from living long enough. God knows you’ve earned it – some of the ad hominem attacks you’ve received on your own web forum make me wonder about humanity, y’know?
No one is saying this stuff never ever happens anywhere in the entire history of anywhere, but how is holding an entire ethnic group responsible for the acts of some of its members any different than Trump blaming all Muslims for ISIS?
yes. precisely.
The difference is it’s very easy to get away with being racist to Roma, because everyone is racist against Roma and the conditions they’ve been forced to live in for centuries has meant that some of the stereotypes ring true to an extent, as they do with other highly persecuted minorities.
But frankly people get away with the Muslims & ISIS thing to an extent. There’s just no way that’d fly in Marvel currently with Ms. Marvel being such a big seller.
Except that Mr. David did not hold all Roma responsible for what he witnessed. What he did do was let his outrage over what he really saw and what he was told about it get the better of him. Should he be open-minded to the idea that what he was told was not accurate (either in whole or in part)? Yes. But to call him racist is bûllšhìŧ.
Every one has their trigger topics. Having seen those kids, it would be tough to stay silent. It would be like arguing with Roald Dald about vaccines. I’m glad you told the full story. I saw that post about the guy ditching your future endeavor and wonder if it is the audience dude.
And by “audience dude” you mean the actual Roma person who only asked about diversity?
Or you know maybe they’re *actually Roma* and don’t like people being immensely racist against them.
I guess Mr David missed that the guy speaking to him…was actually Romani….Hmm…maybe he knows more about his OWN people than he does?
Also here is a full vid of what happened. You all be the judge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4QuxCNe89g
PAD, your BID columns of old about the dangers of political correctness, as you have now seen, have proven more relevant than ever. There’s no hesitation from them to turn on you and brand you with their favourite word once you step even slightly out of line with the “acceptable” point of view.
And the result? You’re shamed into silence. Over a real issue. It’s not hard to see where this leads. We don’t call it “Wrongthink” anymore, but the concept is alive and well, and has only gained traction these past few years.
I implore you to stick to your guns. They only have power if you let them.
Amazing. This hypocrisy from the guy who used to go on page-long screeds about Islamophobia in X-Factor. Guess it’s okay to paint an entire culture with crude strokes based off third-hand knowledge when you’re the one doing it.
“Guess it’s okay to paint an entire culture with crude strokes based off third-hand knowledge when you’re the one doing it.”
That is not what Peter David said though. It’s easy to call someone racist when you attribute false statements to him. It is entirely possible, though, that he was misinformed (at least in part) by his guide and Mr. David should be open to that possibility. On the other hand, it does seem that he has done some research in the matter in the years since then.
one time i saw a black guy named tyrone use food stamps to buy a T-bone steak, therefore the black community is full of people who are welfare cheats.
Peter, thank you for bringing the plight of Romani child beggars to my attention. I had no idea stuff like this was going on. Never should we ignore atrocities like this out of sensitivity for their cultural group. It’s like saying we should hush-hush the Holocaust because we might make the Germans feel bad. Just no. Thank you for letting us all know about this.
Hey Samy,
Did you know that Roma people were killed in the Holocaust? Nice job comparing them to one of the many groups of people who tried to wipe them out.
I don’t think that you are necessarily racist, but what you did was. You took an awful thing that a few people have done and painted an entire culture with that brush. By that logic, all Africans are Boko Haram, all Muslims are ISIS, and all Americans are KKK. To unleash that kind of rage at a fan of yours because of his race, and solely because of his race, was a racist act, and one that that this post makes it clear that you are not sorry for. I am sorry that you saw a horrible thing twenty years ago. It must have been awful to see. It does not mean that every Romany parent would do that to their child — after all, the young man who stood up, well, stood up. People do awful things to their children in every culture, every country, every place in the world. But only some people are blamed for the actions of the few.
Also…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genu_recurvatum
And of course you’re screening comments so only your supporters who give you a pass on your racism come through. That’s fine, Peter; blame the media and political correctness, and keep doubling down on how Mexicans are rapists… oh, I’m sorry, that’s how Romani are child-abusers. So easy to get bigots confused these days.
Uh…no. The website does the screening automatically. When new people show up it automatically holds the comments in moderation waiting for someone–usually me–to read them over and make sure they’re not being placed by spammers or some such. And since I’ve been at the convention until ten minutes ago, this is the first chance I’ve had to read things over.
So I started approving a number of comments that were held up until just now. Including yours.
However, if you wish to chalk up the simple way that WordPress works to bigotry and racism, that is entirely your choice.
PAD
I chalk up your comments to bigotry and racism, and I stand corrected on how WordPress works (see how easy it is to admit when you’re wrong?)
That you don’t understand this, that you keep doubling down, truly boggles my mind. If that had been you in the audience talking about Jewish representation, and the writer on stage had gone on a rant about this one time thirty years ago when a tour guide told him Jews are all greedy and miserly, you would have been horrified.
What’s next, Peter? A faux-apology along the lines of “I’m sorry if you were offended”? What other boxes on the Racist Rhetoric Checklist are you going to tick?
The fact that you, who gave Jim Wilson AIDS to start a conversation about how stereotypes are not reality, don’t have the shred of decency or empathy it takes to actually understand what you did on that stage… it’s disappointing.
And you signed up for Trek Against Trump. What a joke.
And you, Deena, take a page right out of Trump’s handbook by moving the goalposts while making yourself look like a fool in the process.
Unlike most of the people commenting on this thread, I’ve actually been around this website a long time. And this is merely the latest in a long string of ridiculous ‘Let’s attack PAD on his own website to show how macho we are!’ situations.
FFS, some of you need a new hobby.
Gadjo, I work closely with a woman who lost a leg entirely because of the casual disregard for Roma life that racist Gadje Romanians show. She is one of the most kind hearted women I know and she suffers because of the sort of words you say. Even the “bad” Roma, I’m not going to play respectability politics here, they are that way after centuries of subjugation, slavery, and genocide. Stop pretending you were anything but completely wrong and ignorant on this. Own up for once, educate yourself.
Probably the kids you saw with the bent knees where like my sister and her friend, they had deformed legs due to an injection that was given to many Roma when they were young. Problems with legs in general are quite common in that community, Mariola’s baby had to have a device to keep her legs in place when she was smaller and her feet sometimes point in the wrong direction.
You are literally telling someone not to talk about a prejudice that wiped out millions of people because of what some racist Romanian said to you. This is terrifying.
Yes, and I’m sure that the kids with broken elbows and their eyes gouged out were…
Never mind. Not worth it.
PAD
Mr. David, so far you talked only about seeing children with deformed legs. Have you actually seen some with deformed elbows and a missing eye that has been gouged out?
How can you be sure it’s not a rare deformity like genu recurvatum? How can you be sure the eye has been gouged out?
And even if there _really_ were a few Romani people who did such horrible things to their children, this does not condemn everyone. It’s as if I were saying that all Jews are greedy just because I saw one being greedy.
Your comment was racist, whether you want to admit it or not.
I can appreciate you being concerned for sick children, or if you had like actual proof of some Romani parents doing that to their children, but you haven’t and it was racist.
If you want to hear about horrors, I have friends who can speak to you about horrors. The way you shouted at this poor vulnerable man was revolting and one of the most cruel acts I have witnessed. You have no idea, he could have had family members who were killed, his house burnt down, you don’t know. The way people treat Roma people is incredibly cruel. But all you could do is shout that you Don’t Care.
“Why are people angry that I got upset about the crippling of children?”
Because it was in response to him talking about Romani representation. When you responded in that way, you made it clear what you think of Roma in general. If in 20+ years you never formed a different view of Roma, then that’s on you.
What many people are taking issue with is not that you spoke about your personal negative experience (Romania was _badly_ messed up in the late 80s/early 90s. Non-Roma children were being systematically abused into insanity. Horrific, horrific stories.) but that your angry reaction implied that you thought that applied to ALL roma families, and that ALL roma should be punished for it.
It is ridiculous to blame all Jews for the actions of a few, and equally ridiculous to blame all Romani. Whether you do or don’t, that is what people were taking from your statements.
It might help to release some sort of statement along the lines of “I know not everyone is like this but some people are and more should be done about it.”
Dear Mr. David,
I am Hungarian Roma. I was born in Hungary and was adopted by White Americans, so trust me when I say that I’m an expert on this.
You have no idea how my people operate. You have no idea what my people have lived through. You have no idea what Roma, Romani/y or “Gypsy” mean. (Watch this moderately accurate video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wSLfGBVGY)
We are the most hated people on an entire continent. People forget about our devastating losses in the Holocaust (Porajmos). Europeans especially fail to teach their children that we were enslaved for 500 years in Romania…Most “ethic” Romanian adults are even ignorant of this fact. We are still actively segregated. We are refused medical treatment regardless of our socio-economic status; we are constantly convicted for crimes we don’t commit; villages consisting of men, women and children deprived of access to clean drinking and bath water; many Romani, particularly Roma, Sinti, and Iberian Kale, are denied employment; and most Romani, especially the Roma, are routinely targeted by Neo-Nazi’s. We are also captured and sold by our local and federal governments.
You can not say that one isolated incident or even a coincidental series of them is indicative of an entire ethnic/racial/national group’s inherent behavior and therefore reflective of their general culture. This is barely even a legitimate co-culture. I could easily say the same thing about Jews, particularly Israeli, American Ashkenazi, and select Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews. Look at:
1.) http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796,
2.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein,
3.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism
Below is a paper I wrote detailing the plight of my people. The conditions are worse in Romanian because of the Romanian government and society, not because of my people.
Christopher Quinn
Professor Boone
Rhetoric of Protest & Reform
12 September 2016
Modern Day Slavery in Hungary
The U.S. Department of State’s 2016 Trafficking in Persons Report identifies the Southeastern Central European nation of Hungary as a Tier-2 Country. The U.S. Department of State (2016) asserts the following: “Hungary is a source, transit, and, to a lesser extent, destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking” (p. 196). This U.S. Department of State classification is in accordance with the Tier Placement system devised by the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection of Act of 2000 also known as the Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA), meaning that Hungary does not fully comply with the TVPA’s minimum standards for the control, prevention, and elimination of evident human trafficking and modern day slavery, but rather possesses the capabilities to do so. Currently, human trafficking Hungary involves hundreds, if not thousands of victims.
The report details how Roma women and children, as well as others of Romani descent are at the greatest risk of sex trafficking and forced labor. Eastern Hungarian Roma women and girls are at an alarming high risk of becoming victims of prostitution, as where both Hungarian Roma boys and girls—regardless of geographical location—are at high risk of prostitution and forced petty crime. Additionally, Roma men are at great risk of forced labor. Prior to trafficking, many of these children are taken from government operated institutions, to which they eventually return and repeat the cycle of crime and abuse. The less fortunate children are tried as “youth” (equivalent to adult) for their unwilling involvement in sex crimes and are sometimes even fined and jailed as a result, as indicated in the following excerpt from the U.S. Department of State (2016) “During the [2015 reporting period, authorities fined five adult sex trafficking victims for prostitution violations. Furthermore, authorities penalized 101 children, including 100 girls and one boy, for prostitution offenses despite being sex trafficking victims; 30 received a fine, and courts sentenced nine to imprisonment” (p. 197).
Given this, Hungary is allegedly making significant efforts to meet said minimum standards, despite neglecting to address both national and international racism as a driving factor behind its consistent Tier-2 ranking. In other words, numbers are inconsistent and the assistance of both the government, law enforcement and third-party organizations is still minimal given strong the racial prejudice towards Romani people, especially the Roma, thus only further delaying Hungary’s removal from Tier-2 status. Limited funding under $100,000 has been allocated to the cause, but given its severity, it is a worthless contribution (p. 197).
Work Cited
Department of State, U.S. (2016, June 30) Trafficking in Persons Report Retrieved from http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/258879.pdf
Department of State, U.S. (2016, June 30) Tier Placements Retrieved from http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2015/243366.htm
http://www.vice.com/read/romanias-drug-addicted-roma-are-being-left-to-rot-456
PAD
YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT MY PEOPLE ARE ALL DRUG-ADDICTS AND THAT SUFFERING FROM DRUG ADDICTION MAKES YOU A BAD HUMAN BEING!
Your’e a racist piece of šhìŧ. And doesn’t this confirm that it’s mostly society’s fault for the mistreatment of my people and their current state? Also, the figures are completely off. More “ethnic” Romanians do drugs, even proportionately. You need to grow-up and accept responsibility. I’m fully aware of the hardships of my people. Don’t preach to me the plight of my people to me and try to make drug abuse into something it isn’t. Millions of people do illegal drugs and it doesn’t make them ihnernetly flawed or monstrous. My people don’t kill like yours do. We don’t wage wars or incite violent protests (we are always provoked, assuming we retaliate at all, but we just take it because we do our best to avoid physical confrontation, and we excel at it). We are extremely peaceful and haven’t killed, murdered and raped they way other people do. You’re a White, Jewish American man who has too much privilege. As a racist White person, you’re, well, oppressive–there’s no two ways about it, and as Jew you are clearly Islamophobic, and as a natural born American who is super ethnocentrist and not a all multi-ethnic or well cultured, you feed into our skewered sense of patriotism. I’m ashamed to share the same country and passion for comics as you. I’m ashamed to even be of the same species of you.
I am going to use your comics as toilet paper. 2099 was always lame anyways. A 12-year-old could write better.
Frankly, Christopher Quinn’s tirade is starting to sound like anti-Roma trolling. He keeps slinging around wild accusations like saying Peter has called all Roma drug users, when he did no such thing. He keeps downplaying the issues facing Roma in Europe, like their low access to medical care because of lacking ID, and tries to make everyone hate Peter instead of thanking him for drawing attention to helping the Roma. He should be dámņ grateful to Peter for caring deeply about these abused children and for trying to raise awareness. Christopher tries to paint the Roma as hunky-dory, no problems whatsoever, nothing to see here folks — and frankly, to me, that seems more like trying to keep the Roma down.
Really? I just thought I linked to an article. Hunh. Okay.
PAD
Sammy Merchi, I am ROMA! Have you not read any of my comments! I know abut the hardships facing my people! I’m not a troll.!
Sammy, what the heck are you even saying? I’m not trolling. I was born into a Romani community. I am full-blooded Hungarian Vlach Roma. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said that my people’s live’s hunky-dory? Did you not read about my report on how we are sex trafficked?
“Stop trying to put words in my mouth.”
“YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT MY PEOPLE ARE ALL DRUG-ADDICTS AND THAT SUFFERING FROM DRUG ADDICTION MAKES YOU A BAD HUMAN BEING!”
Ok, you either pull up the direct quote from Peter where he says that. Literally says that. No, make that LITERALLY says that.
Or admit you are a liar and a hypocrite. A liar for claiming something that is not true. LITERALLY true. And a hypocrite for being offended when the exact same thing is done to you.
And a fool for making it so easy to catch. Seriously, in the same thread???
You see a disabled child begging and you conclude that a) his own parents must have deliberately crippled him to make you feel sad AND b) he’s poor and begging because he’s from an inferior culture. Wow. How someone like you could hold onto such racist insanity is hard to grasp. Believing that Roma mangle their children with a career in begging in mind is not very different from the fantasies that antisemites believe and propagate evil and paranoid libels that I will not lay forth here.
You and your big mouth indeed. And your big, dark, bigoted imagination.
Uh, no. I believed what I was told by someone who lived there. I’m sorry if you consider what’s happening to be too horrific to contemplate and would rather call me names.
PAD
You’re wrong. It’s not a common Roma practice and is not indicative of Romani culture. Most of these kids are naturally deformed as a result of birth defects because many Roma and Romanians alike lack access to proper food and water. Others contract rare diseases as infants which disable them. Most are beaten and maimed by cops and Neo-Nazis and appear this way as a result. Parent’s don’t do this, and if any do, it’s a very small portion. Some children are double jointed and feign injury. Some are forced to do so by slave owners and pimps, who are the ones who actually cripple them.
… and there’s no way the taxi driver was racist.
Also, Romani don’t have much, if any, access to health care in Romania.
Regardless, you have tarred all of us with this brush. Romani live in so many countries so, according to you, all of them, in all countries, are like this.
“Believing that Roma mangle their children with a career in begging in mind is not very different from the fantasies”
Sadly not a fantasy. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/romania/8027694/Romanian-gipsy-gang-snatched-200-children-from-homes-to-use-them-as-beggars.html
Relevant quotes “However, the 181 children were beaten and abused, with some even deliberately disfigured to increase their earning potential, as disabled beggars were thought to generate more income.” “The gang came to the attention of the authorities in Romania after grand homes began to appear among the gipsy community at Tandarei which were being built for people who had no apparent income.” Those running the gang were Roma, and were preying on their own community’s children. So, while it is fair to say “not all Roma do this”, to try and claim it doesn’t happen and label PAD a bigot and fantasist for saying it does, is incorrect. As PAD noted in his original statement, he doesn’t hate all Roma, and has written sympathetic Romani characters. But those Romani who abuse and mutilate children? Those make him angry. And, while I wouldn’t have the hubris to put words in PAD’s mouth normally, I suspect this once I could also hazard a guess that he’d have the exact same stance on any other individuals or groups who abuse and mutilate children.
We have one religion. We assimilated to whatever the dominant religion of our new-found homes were, though we tend to be less conservative, and therefore more spiritual with our interpretations of scripture.
And not all Romani peoples and co-cultures are homophobic! We are mostly Christian, as we follow and practice various forms and subsets of Protestantism and Catholicism. Most of us are either Evangelical, Lutheran, Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Some of us are Jewish and Muslim, and very few of us adhere to Hinduism /or Buddhism. Those religions my be homophobic and perhaps our ancestors were, but virtually every modern cultural is still extremely homophobic. You know nothing about the LGBTQAI+ community.
And here’s where you get but hurt and call me an Anti-Semite: Our mother’s religion, is extremely homophobic. You has a White Jew, whose people stole an entire country from your darker Semitic brethren, have no right to question Romani. You guys left a country for 3,000+ years and then took it back by force and by relying Anglo and Germanic-guilt. It it weren’t for American and Europeans of Anglo-Saxon descent, you guys would still be “nation-less”.
Your people still uphold absurd religious beliefs and practices that are outdated by five millennia. And this is not Anti-Semitic. I am Christian, but I am not racist, as race is a social construct and Jews are series of diverse ethno-religious subgroups. I am just point out facts.
My people, are well preserved group that is so genetically unique that is races did exist, we’d be one.
You need to learn how to think and speak clearly. Also, do some research.
“Gypsy” is highly derogatory exonym derived from the word ‘Egyptian’ and it’s cognate cigány means “poor (to the point of extremely impoverishment) and “untouchable”. Essentially, the name means that we are fortunate telling, baby-snatching, jewel and horse thieving, nomadic wanderers from Egypt who are so poor and dirty that they have no place in proper society. We are actually from Northwestern India and were a mix of untouchables and lower caste people, who had inherent trade skills. We have excelled in wood carving, blacksmithing, gold-smithing and other kinds of forging and metal work, horsemanship, singing, acting, guitar playing and dancing for centuries. Not all of us beg, and ones who do are doing so as means to survive in a highly oppressive society.
Bottom line, don’t use the G-word, It’s like k*** or H***. Common sense and decency dictates that you don’t say it.
Lastly, you called us “its” and dehumanized us. You treated us as subhuman. Respond to me, I’d love to hear what you have to say.
Look at my posting. I corrected it from “religion” to “law” almost immediately. So your rant is pretty much irrelevant.
Me telling you that you are using a racist term is irrelevant?
“Hello, what you saw is what you saw … however, the racist, anti-Romani explanation, provided by a non-Romani person, is wrong, to say the least. I will explain later in this post why it is wrong, prejudiced and racist BUT what I want to say first as a lesbian woman, a queer academic and a longstanding ally of and activist for Roma is that your response should have not taken place along these lines in the first place. You were asked a very different question and instead, you responded in a way that leaves me speechless. I’m surprised that the LGBT panelists didn’t call you out on this because imagine if a participant asked a similar question about LGBT people and your response would have been that LGBT people molest children and that’s why you’re not having any sort of discussion. Or if you had been asked about POC or Jewish characters and you’d have responded in a similar way. I think that would have been a scandal in the US but unfortunately anti-Romani sentiments are the last permissible bastion of racism. But back to the answer you were given by the Romanian person. Oftentimes, you see Romani children with these types of deformations because they suffer from rickets due to vitamin d deficiency. Why? Because for centuries Roma have been marginalised, oppressed, killed and exterminated. Present-day marginalisation in notoriously racist countries such as Romania takes the shape of school segregation, discrimination within the labour market and all spheres of economic, public and social life (both historic and modern discrimination against Roma, including specifically in Romania, has been well documented). As a result, Romani families have very little or no money for food. Looking at it from an intersectional viewpoint, women suffer multiple discrimination as Roma, women, mothers, and they’re also exposed to different dynamics around poverty due to their gender. Do you understand now why your answer and the above justification of your response are so wrong?”
‘As a researcher at the University of Brighton, investigating the lived experiences of Romani LGBTIQ from a queer theoretical perspective, I can assure you that the ‘Romani law’ (you probably mean Romani criss which is used in some Romani communities only) does not despise homosexuality. Roma are not more homophobic or transphobic than non-Roma, you will find homophobia everywhere, particularly in conservative and close-knit communities, including Christian and other communities. Roma are not an exception but please don’t say that the Romani law despises homosexuality. I do hope that some of my Romani LGBTIQ friends and acquaintances will write you on here and clarify the issue.’
*We don’t have any one religion. We assimilate… Unlike you, I can’t edit my posts.
**We can’t edit our posts.
Thanks to J. Nirenberg for all the appropriate comments.
Gypsy
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Gypsy Gypsy
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Gypsy Gypsy Gypsy
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Sorry, but Gypsy is a just a word at this point. Nothing more, nothing less.
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No more, no less. The fact that I had no clue initially what was going on and what the outrage was over because the first article I saw on the matter had the quotes in full but wrote Gypsies as “G*****s” was bovine manure.
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I mean, I’m pretty sure Rose Louise Hovick wasn’t trying to insult herself back in the day by giving her stage and screen persona the name Gypsy Rose Lee. Most people think of Gypsies as a group, both good and bad. I’m 45. I’ve never known anyone who thought of that as a label with a purely negative connotation.
Oh, and before you or anyone else launches into a tirade about how I’m not of the people saying blah blah blah blah…
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Take it up with these guys and gals first.
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Gypsy Council The Gypsy Council was founded 1966. An advocate for Romani Gypsies and Travellers ever since.
http://gypsycouncil.blogspot.com/?view=magazine
What ethnicity, race and/or nationality are you? I’m gonna call you every name in the book.
Technically I’m a mutt.
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Tracking genealogy, the most dominant lines leading to me are Irish, Cherokee, Scottish, Blackfoot, German, African.
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Feel free to call me whatever you want. Odds are I’ve been called far worse at one point or another by better people than you. And, yeah, I know enough about you to know you and your opinion on anyone else is worth less than a fart in the wind. How? See your comment below.
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“I wish your children could have suffered the way I suffered, you privilege, racist, White piece of šhìŧ.”
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I’ve had any number of differences with any number of individuals over the years. There are people- very few -that I even have on my list of people I absolutely hate and despise.
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I have never wished suffering on children because I disliked or disagreed with an adult. If anything, depending on the issue in question, I tend to feel sorry for their children.
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It’s actually somewhat comical the turn you’ve taken here. This started because of multiple nightmarish experiences Peter had overseas almost 25 years ago that involved the idea of abuses to children- people described as willingly and deliberately doing harm to children.
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And here you are almost 25 years later upset with the impressions made on him and views he holds because of those experiences and expressing that anger by wishing suffering and harm on the children of other people.
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My, what a wonderful representative of your side of the discussion you are. If you had mature, functional cognative abilities you’d realize what an idiot you’ve made yourself appear to be, but you likely possess all of the capability for self-awareness of a stapler.
Or, as I spell it when I’m paying better attention to what I’m writing rather than the action in MMA main event I’m watching- “cognitive”
Going by your logic, if you want to call it that, then n****** us just a word too, and ANYONE should be able to use it whenever.
After all, it was every bit as socially acceptable to call someone a n****** and use that word in all sorts of committee names in 1966.
Meanwhile, I trust you can provide actual documentation in regards to the Native American ancestry you’re trying to claim. Unless you think claiming decent from someone who had their culture stolen from them by the same racism that you seem to endorse will somehow make it all better.
Oh, Christopher?
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Are you going to go take the The Gypsy Council to task and call them every name in the book as well?
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I provided you the link. Go knock yourself out. Let us know how that works out for you.
Eat a dìçk. I’m tired, stressed and have an L.D. You’re a despicable sub-human piece of genetic trash. How does that feel? You should kill yourself.
Kat: “Going by your logic, if you want to call it that, then n****** us just a word too, and ANYONE should be able to use it whenever.”
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Kat: “After all, it was every bit as socially acceptable to call someone a n****** and use that word in all sorts of committee names in 1966.
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It’s funny you should mention logic, because from your comments here it’s obviously not one of your strong points. For that matter, neither is honesty when discussing matters.
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“… call someone a n****** and use that word in all sorts of committee names in 1966”
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Really? There were just all sorts of committees with that name on them in 1966? And what were these organizations? Care to source a few for us?
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Also, should you be able to find some little group of 20 people formed by a local Klan group, do you really think that’s the same? The Gypsy Council is a representative group that works for positive issues. They proudly carry that name. In other words, they’re not butthurt babies about it.
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Kat: “Meanwhile, I trust you can provide actual documentation in regards to the Native American ancestry you’re trying to claim. Unless you think claiming decent from someone who had their culture stolen from them by the same racism that you seem to endorse will somehow make it all better.”
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#1- I was asked a question. I answered it. As anyone who has been here for the last 13 or so years can confirm, it’s largely the same answer I’ve given on the topic before now. As I said, I’m an American Mutt.
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#2- Why, yes, I can provide documentation. Will I do it here for you? No. Why? Well, because you’re an idiot.
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Plus, you’ve yet to demand documentation from anyone trolling here for the first time wishing suffering upon children while declaring themselves full-blooded Roma. I guess you just assumed his desire to see children suffering was documentation enough?
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Christopher Quinn: “I’m tired, stressed and have an L.D.”
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Well bully for you. I’m tired. I’m likely far more stressed than you given both upcoming matters at work and some recent family issues. I also deal with having a learning disability (dyslexia) that gets worse when I’m tired and stressed. Yet here I am comporting myself with more dignity and intelligence than you. Maybe it’s just because I actually have more dignity and intelligence than you have.
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Christopher Quinn: “Eat a dìçk.”
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Ah… So your go to insults are to try to use homosexuality as a negative concept. Sorry, but I have too many gay friends to see homosexuality as a negative. Not my personal preference, but I don’t hold the obviously negative, bigoted view of homosexuals that you do.
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I think that topic was actually addressed elsewhere in this thread…
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Christopher Quinn: “You’re a despicable sub-human piece of genetic trash. How does that feel? You should kill yourself.”
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Well, I might feel disappointed if that was said to me by someone whose words I placed any value in, but it means less than nothing coming from someone who is apparently an anti-gay bigot, writes like an emotionally and mentally stunted man-child with anger management issues, and displays tendencies to express in writing the desire to see innocent children suffering.
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Other than that- How’s your day going?
Jerry, you have yet to accuse anyone of secretly being Ben Bradlee so far. You’re going to risk not getting your gold star.
*Your mother’s religion (Judaism)
Mr. David, there is nothing irrelevant about responding to your bigoted and incorrect assertion that Romani “law” is homophobic. You are not well informed and you are insulting and prejudiced. Roma are no more homophobic – and unfortunately not less so – than other people in the many countries where Roma live.
Then be sure to drop a note to these people and tell them to correct their article.
http://www.imninalu.net/Zakono.htm
PAD
Peter David is Xenophobic.
My friend who asked you the question is full-blooded Iberian Kale. Spanish-born an all. He is proud multi-lingual Rom. As a Spaniard, who also happens to be Romani, he speaks fluent Spanish and Romanes (also known as Romani or Romany). His grasp of English is not the best, but you can’t fault him for that.
Are you going to respond to me. I saw you reposed to Martin Toldi and a few other users, but why not me?
im spaniard,i gave lived around gypsies almost my entire life and u are full of šhìŧ chistoper quinn
u know where i have seem the most racist and homophobic people? among them,every place they took ( free social housing) they turn into a šhìŧ hølë of drugs,robbery and garbage
there is more factors to this? maybe but they have earned a lot of bad that bad press themselves so dont tell me tales from you ášš quinn maybe the roma concept americans have is a bit romantic of the real world
When you write stuff like ““I wish your children could have suffered the way I suffered, you privilege, racist, White piece of šhìŧ.” you tend to get put into that special category of “Damaged awful people who are not worth the attention of people who are not as damaged or as awful as they are” by most folks. Just the way it works.
You can’t help being damaged but you could become less awful. But awful people almost never understand how awful they are, part of what makes them awful. Unlike a truly awful person, the kind who would tell you to kill yourself, I sincerely hope you improve.
(Assuming you are not just someone pretending to be this persona,which would make you terrible but for different reasons. Yep, your rants are so kooky they have a suspiciously over the top quality to them that makes one go “Hmmmmm…” But, Occam’s razor and all, the most likely explanation is that you are sincere but incompetent. Also, awful.)
Gypsies are not a race but a awful culture, my hope is those born into that culture can find a way to escape it to a better life.
Well done on what you said, shame too few people here care about the truth or child abuse.
Dear Peter David,
As someone who loves comics, I can’t find the words to tell you how painfully disappointing that video was!
It was unbelievable the way you demonized a whole ethnic group, especially one that does not have social power. It’s also sad that only a very small number of people will raise their voices and ask you to apologize.Some minority groups continue to be powerless due to continuous domination and oppression but we should not use that against them!
Your reaction was unforgivably and unquestionably racist, and no matter what your reasons were, those won’t chance the racist and aggressive nature of your intervention.
The story of that Romani child was horrible but have you ever asked yourself why the authorities let that happened on a street in an European capital? More over, did your guide tell you about the history of oppression Romani people have faced in Romania? Did he tell you that the Romanian state and the Ortodox church enslaved Roma for 500 years and used the work force of millions of people for free and without no reparations post slavery? Have you seen or talked to one of thousands Romani children who keep on struggling to get education while they face racism, segregation, bullying, verbal and physical abuse from their Romanian peers and teachers? And do you really believe that 2 mil. people abuse their children because “this is the Gypsy way?” Aren’t we beyond the pseudo-science of eugenics and abuse and criminality as genetic features?
You were extremely aggressive and you used all your powers, including your privileged role in the comics world, to put down that young Romani. How could you even speak about rights, children, and humanity, when you, yourself verbally abused a person who loves your work, your comics, but feels, as many of us, that your understanding of his community is somehow racist. And your reaction proves once again that you are way too biased against Romani people. It’s unacceptable in the 21st century to imagine that one can generalize a negative experience to a whole community. It’s unacceptable to keep this Gypsy fantasy of criminality and inferiority in your mind and in your comics. These ideas led Nazis to kill millions of people, including Roma, and we all have a moral responsibility to prevent that from happening again.
More so, speaking about rights, how could you take away, in the most appalling manner, the freedom of speech and expression of anyone, by using your privileges and aggression?
It’s also shocking that people on the panel kept silence; by not acting, they approved your aggressive, racist behavior.
I do hope you take the time to reflect on your reaction, discuss it over with people with a history of oppression or knowledge of racism ( there are plenty of critical race theorist in this country), so you can understand how deeply racist and explicitly biased you were and how that could affect the Romani communities worldwide. I also hope you get in touch with that smart, courageous young guy and apologize, but also show a bit of humility and learn about Romani people from Romani people, write and create comics about Romani people aware of your biases and of their effect on this community.
Thank you very much in advance for taking the time to read and reflect on my reaction to the anti-Romani racist incident in NY!
Christopher Quinn, the fact that you are telling other posters to “shut your face” as well as calling PAD names like “xenophobic” makes you unworthy of a response, and I hope PAD does not respond to your trollish behavior. You’re obviously just looking for a fight. If you had been civil in your discourse then I would have liked to see you get your response, but instead, PAD, please don’t feed this troll!
Am I troll? I’m full blooded Vlach Roma! I was born in Hungary and had to be adopted by White (Christian Caucasian Americans of “White” European decent) just so I could survive. I am not troll! You’re the troll! You’re username is literally “Kermit Frog”. You’re not civil either.
*Your username.
Have you read any of my actual posts? Like my academic research paper or my shared experiences?
Yes, Christopher, you are a troll. Learn what that means. I do not doubt you are Roma as you claim to be, but all you are doing is tryingto pick fights here. You even said “fûçk you” to another commentor here, so you’ve even further proven my point. I would love to hear why you think I was not civil in my first comment, because I don’t think you would even recognize civility if it were standing in ront of you. And no, I have not read your “research” or much of your longwinded crybaby rants, because you are literally nobody of importance and you do not matter to me. You are a rude troll who is cussing out other people here and picking fights, so why would I or anyone else care what you have to say?
By the way, if you wanted to prove anything positive about Roma here, you’re doing the exact opposite with your childish and rude behavior.
I am Roma. Fûçk you. You have no write to judge me.
Dear Mr. David,
I am Hungarian Roma. I was born in Hungary and was adopted by White Americans, so trust me when I say that I’m an expert on this.
You have no idea how my people operate. You have no idea what my people have lived through. You have no idea what Roma, Romani/y or “Gypsy” mean. (Watch this moderately accurate video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wSLfGBVGY)
We are the most hated people on an entire continent. People forget about our devastating losses in the Holocaust (Porajmos). Europeans especially fail to teach their children that we were enslaved for 500 years in Romania…Most “ethic” Romanian adults are even ignorant of this fact. We are still actively segregated. We are refused medical treatment regardless of our socio-economic status; we are constantly convicted for crimes we don’t commit; villages consisting of men, women and children deprived of access to clean drinking and bath water; many Romani, particularly Roma, Sinti, and Iberian Kale, are denied employment; and most Romani, especially the Roma, are routinely targeted by Neo-Nazi’s. We are also captured and sold by our local and federal governments.
You can not say that one isolated incident or even a coincidental series of them is indicative of an entire ethnic/racial/national group’s inherent behavior and therefore reflective of their general culture. This is barely even a legitimate co-culture. I could easily say the same thing about Jews, particularly Israeli, American Ashkenazi, and select Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews. Look at:
1.) http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796,
2.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein,
3.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism
Below is a paper I wrote detailing the plight of my people. The conditions are worse in Romanian because of the Romanian government and society, not because of my people.
Christopher Quinn
Professor Boone
Rhetoric of Protest & Reform
12 September 2016
Modern Day Slavery in Hungary
The U.S. Department of State’s 2016 Trafficking in Persons Report identifies the Southeastern Central European nation of Hungary as a Tier-2 Country. The U.S. Department of State (2016) asserts the following: “Hungary is a source, transit, and, to a lesser extent, destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking” (p. 196). This U.S. Department of State classification is in accordance with the Tier Placement system devised by the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection of Act of 2000 also known as the Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA), meaning that Hungary does not fully comply with the TVPA’s minimum standards for the control, prevention, and elimination of evident human trafficking and modern day slavery, but rather possesses the capabilities to do so. Currently, human trafficking Hungary involves hundreds, if not thousands of victims.
The report details how Roma women and children, as well as others of Romani descent are at the greatest risk of sex trafficking and forced labor. Eastern Hungarian Roma women and girls are at an alarming high risk of becoming victims of prostitution, as where both Hungarian Roma boys and girls—regardless of geographical location—are at high risk of prostitution and forced petty crime. Additionally, Roma men are at great risk of forced labor. Prior to trafficking, many of these children are taken from government operated institutions, to which they eventually return and repeat the cycle of crime and abuse. The less fortunate children are tried as “youth” (equivalent to adult) for their unwilling involvement in sex crimes and are sometimes even fined and jailed as a result, as indicated in the following excerpt from the U.S. Department of State (2016) “During the [2015 reporting period, authorities fined five adult sex trafficking victims for prostitution violations. Furthermore, authorities penalized 101 children, including 100 girls and one boy, for prostitution offenses despite being sex trafficking victims; 30 received a fine, and courts sentenced nine to imprisonment” (p. 197).
Given this, Hungary is allegedly making significant efforts to meet said minimum standards, despite neglecting to address both national and international racism as a driving factor behind its consistent Tier-2 ranking. In other words, numbers are inconsistent and the assistance of both the government, law enforcement and third-party organizations is still minimal given strong the racial prejudice towards Romani people, especially the Roma, thus only further delaying Hungary’s removal from Tier-2 status. Limited funding under $100,000 has been allocated to the cause, but given its severity, it is a worthless contribution (p. 197).
Work Cited
Department of State, U.S. (2016, June 30) Trafficking in Persons Report Retrieved from http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/258879.pdf
Department of State, U.S. (2016, June 30) Tier Placements Retrieved from http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2015/243366.htm
I hope you kill yourself.
Oh, my dear, dear Christopher QuinnTroll. You say I have no “write” to judge you, please tell me where you got your right to judge me and everyone else here?
You hope I and several other people here kill ourselves? Is that the official stance of the Roma people? Tell me, have you ever sought help for mental illness? Wishing harm to others simply for not seeing things your way is a clear sign that you need help. Besides, I’ve been taught to never take advice from someone who won’t follow their own.
Also, I don’t see what your point is in copy-pasting your pathetic “research” again when I told you I have no interest in reading it the first time.
So, Christopher Quinn, by your own behavior and by insulting people here like the petulant little troll you are, you are proving the stereotype of how unpleasant the Roma are. Thanks again for proving that Roma are trash!
Christopher Quinn (of the “I-can’t-make-my-point-just-once-but-have-to-harangue” Quinns):
Yishai Schlissel and Baruch Goldstein have committed vicious acts against multiple people in public.
What have they to do with peaceful, decent Peter David?
Since when did “I know you are but what am I?” become an acceptable response to *anything*?
Do you give even one dámņ about the deformed children, regardless of the cause? They are the main issue here — no controversy would have existed were there not children who don’t receive proper medical treatment, even worse, an enormous number of them.
You say you didn’t receive decent medical treatment yourself. I’m truly sorry to read that, but if that’s true (and I don’t disbelieve you), why do you show so little apparent care yourself for others who have also been so neglected? You’re posting at enormous length and frequency about a symptom and saying nothing about any possible cure.
Peter, your anger is valid based on your perceptions and education about the situation. I am the father of two young men, and I would be angered past the boiling point, too, about children who looked like mine who were crippled and I was told that it was the result of deliberate action. Based on your own knowledge your fury was understandable. Perhaps what observers should take from this is if you got this publicly angry about something in this one time in thirty years of convention appearances, that maybe, just maybe, what you saw and what you were told were JUST THAT HORRIBLE?!?
I have always been astounded and appalled at the number of people who presume bad faith and bad motivation on your part when the life you lead evidences so much the opposite.
Hey, Internet:
What charities exist for Roma and Romani orphans?
What charities exist for Roma and Romani children in general?
What charities exist for those who suffer *Genu_recurvatum*?
What charities exist for victims of human trafficking?
All of us, instead of being angry at each other here in the West who are all talking about it, what can we *do* about it?
(Daredevil helps fight trafficking, of course, as shown in the opening of his first t.v. episode, but even he isn’t enough by himself. [Obligatory comics reference.])
Less infra-red, more visible spectrum, is generally a good idea.
Fûçk you. I care about my people. You have no right to judge me. I will not divulge to you my personal medical history. You have no idea what I endured for the first 15 months of my life. Look up the orphanages in Hungary and their practices in immediate Post-Cold War Europe. You have no idea how poorly operated such charities are. They do exist, but barely and their are very, very, very, very few. None are really even directly focused on Romani. I wish your children could have suffered the way I suffered, you privilege, racist, White piece of šhìŧ.
Christopher Quinn, its visible to everyone that your personal medical history includes a heaping helping of mental illness. Also, you need to pick one or the other: either you stop telling people they have no right to judge you OR you stop behaving like you have the right to judge everyone else. A huge part of your illness appears to be that you can criticize others but can’t handle being criticized yourself, to the point that you go around like an angry child telling others to kill themself. Seek help. Or just crawl back under your rock.
Peter David was saying that my people are sub-human and commit atrocious crime because our culture dictates it. I’m trying to show him that his people have ACTUALLY done far worse. Like, it’s factual! Its’ been recorded and confirmed and will remain in the annals of history as truth. The actions of those two men are not representative of all Jewish peoples, (I say “peoples” because they posses a very complicated diaspora.) It’s unfair of him to imply that my people behave this way. And to my previous point, these charitable organization and government run institution reject the Roma left and right and refuse them equal treatment, if any.
Can the reply function please be fixed so that not just the carriage return but also the line spacing occur after a press of the ‘Enter’ key?
Stick in a period for each blenk line.
Test.
Hopefully a blank line appears above this one.
Trying another tactic.
Test? Blank line?
Well, yeah… He ditched the ring-name a long time ago. Plus, you know… That whole death thing.
You’re a racist, Peter. Just like the racists who hate blacks because they got robbed by a black person. The world is full of Roma who have nothing to do with the culture you’re discussing, yet you happily lump them all together. You’re a racist, Peter David, and I won’t be buying anymore of your books. And I won’t be buying the books of the companies that employ you.
Bob, you are awesome. 🙂 Thank you so much. Thank you for standing up for my people and doing the right thing. Racism is racism, no matter how you try to spin it. I too am boycotting Marvel. DC treats my people wwwwaaaaaayyyyy better.
DC? Really? The company that named a character “Gypsy”, only to make her a suburban White girl?
You have a major hate on for Mr. David at the moment, but don’t for a minute fool yourself into thinking that some other major American Entertainment Corporation validates your identity just because he doesn’t happen to work for them, at the moment.
(But I guess it is a good thing that people care more about this thread than the Vice Presidential debate?)
Bob, do you even understand what a racist is? Did you actually watch the video, which is available on youtube? Please, explain what Peter said at this panel which actually makes him “racist”. He told a story of a traumatic experience he had involving gypsies.
To you, and all of you ignorant little children who want to swing the racism label around like a bludgeon and hide behind your supposed moral authority, learn what it actually means. A comment that YOU find insensitive does not automatically mean that someone has a deep seated loathing for an entire group of people. So many crybabies with their deep insecurities seem to feel the need to take offense to everything and label people with their limited world view just so their simple minds can try to cope with dealing with opinions they don’t like.
PAD was not racist here. I am firmly on PADs side here, you little agenda-jockeys need to grow up. I’ve seee racism. I’ve experienced racism. PADs comments in the video were not racist. And you little crybabies keep using the word “racist” for every little thing you don’t like is doing it a huge disservice, and will soon hold as much weight as calling someone a witch or a communist.
Hey Pete! I once heard from a cab driver that Jews sacrifice unbaptized infants during passover and smear their blood over their doors, and there are all KINDS of documentation about how evil, money grubbing, and abusive they all are. Guess that makes it true! Also, Mexicans are apparently rapists living off tax payer money as soon as they cross the boarder, Muslims want to murder all Christians, and the Gays are all pedophiles trying to recruit our children.
Goodbye, PAD. I still love your work, but this is my last visit here.
Uhm, okay, bye.
You know what’s weird? Most racists I know wouldn’t allow people to show up on his website, allow them to call him racist, bigot, xenophobic, Islamophobic (plus an assortment of other names) and not fire back with name calling and insults.
Guess I’m a pretty lousy racist.
PAD
Don’t sell yourself short, Peter, you’re doing a great job: ignoring talking points, repeating citations of irrelevant “research” to back you up, showing zero empathy or interest in the people you’re maligning for the sake of bolstering your own ego… get yourself a bad hairpiece and who knows, maybe you can run a GOP ticket someday.
It’s hard to admit at being prejudiced. But once you do it, you can no longer be considered a racist, as it shows a willingness to improve as a human being. Guess that you feel you deserve the hate shower and it is better to take it, than to have to share your next public meeting with the guys who enjoyed your outburst.
“It’s hard to admit at being prejudiced. But once you do it, you can no longer be considered a racist, as it shows a willingness to improve as a human being.”
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That…is baffling. Wouldn’t a racist feel perfectly justified in having prejudices against the people he feels are inferior/congenitally stupid/prone to violence/whatever?
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I am forever amused by those who think “I am XXXXXX so therefore I cannot be racist.” since a belief that one, by simple virtue of their genetics, is immune to vice would seem to be a classic example of racism, but you take it to a whole new level–admit to one of the likely side effects of being a racist and Shazam! you can no longer be considered a racist. Yeah, no.
Gee, Mr. David, I’ll bet you didn’t realize there were so many people who were with you when you witnessed all this, did you? Or that were tracking the research that you did after the fact?
It DOES seem that many people are speaking ex cathedra about your singular experiences and then are fully qualified to comment, and to chastise you, for what your yourself observed.
However, as I myself was NOT there, I am perfectly willing to fully accept your observations and impressions.
And perhaps I missed the part where you commented that every single person of this group was a monster. Not that the acts themselves are not monstrous – they are – but I see nothing indicating your indictment of every single Romany person.
But it is interesting how people seem to move off the point that you made – anger over mutilation of children of a group – to state, seemingly illogically and invalidly, that you hate an entire race.
Personally, I think A) you have your right to despise those who destroy children, and B) you have your right to have what you said judged – but not what others wildly assume and fabricate from your comments.
Here’s a hint, bubbeleh: you don’t need to have been there. There’s video.
Eric L. Sofer: “Gee, Mr. David, I’ll bet you didn’t realize there were so many people who were with you when you witnessed all this, did you? Or that were tracking the research that you did after the fact?”
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Eric L. Sofer: “But it is interesting how people seem to move off the point that you made – anger over mutilation of children of a group – to state, seemingly illogically and invalidly, that you hate an entire race.
Personally, I think A) you have your right to despise those who destroy children, and B) you have your right to have what you said judged – but not what others wildly assume and fabricate from your comments.”
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Deena: “Here’s a hint, bubbeleh: you don’t need to have been there. There’s video.”
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Really? There’s video of his trip to Bucharest that includes the children and the discussions he had? There’s video of the men he witnessed beating on the children for not getting enough when begging? Because, you know, Eric’s comments about people not being there and Peter’s “singular experiences” and what he observed with his own eyes were about his stay in Bucharest in 1993.
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Here’s a hint, bubbeleh: Reading comprehension can be your friend.
I am a bit disappointed in you, Mr. David.
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I’ve been a fan of your works for years. I’ve always enjoyed your political and social views, finding them pretty much in line with my own. Or, if there were differences, they were at least ones that made me think.
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So it shocks me to see you seeming to be slandering an entire people like this. Not only that, but when others reply to you saying, “Hey, is there any chance there may be more to this than you think?” you seem to be disregarding them rather then engaging them in a dialogue. What happened to the Peter David I thought I knew?
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Is it possible these children were deliberately harmed by their parents? Sure. Is it right to judge a whole ethnicity based on the actions of a few bad parents? I have been with a wonderful Romani woman for almost a year now, and she would NEVER harm her children. In fact, one of the first things I learned was that if I ever thought of doing so, they’d never find the body. If anyone does ever try to harm her children, that person better be prepared to run very fast.
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Is it also possible that these children did, as other commenters have suggested, suffer horrible medical care, become deformed as a result, and then casual racism of your guides attributed it to their parents deliberately malforming them to make them more sympathetic beggars?
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Who knows? Maybe the truth is in the middle. There are horrible parents everywhere, in any ethnicity. And the fact is that in Europe, the Romani are still a VERY discriminated against people. So it is not impossible to think that the actions of a few bad apples will be taken as indicative as what the Romani people as a whole must be like. Other people WANT to believe the worst of them, so when an example is provided, they will seize on that and emphasize it.
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I know, Mr. David, that this wasn’t an example you brought up yourself, but another commenter, SV, posted a link to an article about some Romani who abducted 200 children to us as beggars. Horrific? Yes. It was also horrific when Boko Haram kidnapped those hundreds of school girls in Nigeria in 2014. Yet I don’t recall it ever becoming acceptable to label all Islamic people as horrible to children.
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You shouldn’t forget that you saw children suffering. Such suffering is NEVER acceptable. You should, however, consider if what you had been told about WHY they were suffering may have been information tainted with centuries of racism that, alas, you are now perpetrating. Even if your guide was right about the children being harmed by their own parents (and not just making racist assumptions himself), take those as the actions of very bad parents, or at most the actions of one bad community. (And also lament that the low social standing of Romani probably make it unlikely that any sort of local social services will be willing to help those children that are in trouble because they are Romani children.)
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But to judge the Romani people as a whole on this, which, even if it is not the intent you started with, it now has escalated to it sounding like you are? I don’t know how to reply to that, other than to bring my comments full circle by saying that I am disappointed in you.
You have spoken the words in my head far more eloquently than I could have.
I am so very sorry, Peter. I’ve known you for a very long time. I still believe you are a good person with a good heart. But your words did perpetuate racism against Romani culture. What you saw was undeniably horrific. What baffles me is why you accepted the very first explanation given to you without question.
As many have pointed out, prejudice of all kinds can spread through the persistence of bigoted stories. It’s been done to the Jews, as you well know far better than I. It’s being done to the Muslims. And you are doing it to the Romani.
Your righteous fury over the condition of a child is 100% appropriate. However, I have been reading comments from actual Romani people, and there are all kinds of other potential explanations for the child’s condition, and political policies which hurt the Romani as a people.
I ask that you please give proper weight and consideration to the Romani in these comments. Except the guy telling everyone to kill themselves because he’s an áššhølë.
I’ve known you since 1998. I’ve looked up to you for longer. Please, please, take a moment to consider that you may have been misled in the heat of understandable anger and that it has colored your perceptions over the years. I believe that you are the kind of man who can look inward and realize the wrongness of your actions and words. Please consider what you can do to HELP the plight of the Romani and react with compassion instead of anger. I believe you are capable of this.
Please prove me right.
You are such ignorant!!!Why? becouse you are writer of famous comics… stick iu up your ášš… I am not your fan any more.
The Roma lived and suffered a lot long before America even existed so do not make your judgment so quickly. Lot of people can not even admit they are Roma becouse of prejudice of people like you. So watch your big Mouth.
You were wrong dude to shout at that guy. You were racist in your blindness.But the greatest mistake you keep making is that you’re still only halfway to an apology, which you do not seem to mean. Even if your observation was that children had their legs twisted and their lives shattered, it is wrong to extrapolate from this and to place a “blood libel” collective type of guilt on the entire ethnicity. You were mean and brutal to the guy on the floor, considering that as a big name in the business, you had a privileged position on the dias. Who are you really angry with? Maybe just yourself, as you never moved beyond the visceral response of 1993. Did you actually do anything to try to help those children? Maybe write a character rises from misery and poverty and begging to a better life or did your soul remain trapped there and your innocence is still in the darkness with those poor creatures? It is painful to live in darkness… Most of the Roma have and are trying to move beyond such stories, despite the wide prejudice that is against them in Europe and the US as I see. There are better leaders than 20 yrs ago, both for their ethnicity and for Romania as a nation. If you really want to make up for your rather cruel mistake, give me a message. I will put you in touch with their intellectual community.It might just humble you, as you seem to have difficulty in humbling yourself. 🙂
“Now trying to turn a discussion of LGBTQ concerns into a discussion of Romani concerns seemed dubious at best considering that the Romani law despises homosexuality.”
As does Jewish law… But that’s a discussion for another time.
So 23 years ago you witnessed something horrible (in a country of extreme anti-ziganims), and that’s your excuse for… what exactly?
That the persecution of Roma in Europe is extreme is no secret (the situation is far FAR *FAR* beyond the pale). So going on a rant about how some Roma does bad thing is derailing in the extreme.
Kinda like about derailing a discussion about anti-semtisim with cries of how some Jewish settlers on the West Bank acts.
Im not sure you’re fully aware how persecuted the Roma are in Europe. If you were, I hope you wouldn’t have gone into derailing mode like that. Though I’ve found many Americans aren’t aware just *how* terrible the situation is over here.
Every culture has issues. There is a minority element in every racial and ethnic community who engages in disgusting behavior and criminal activity. Due to historical and geopolitical factors certain behaviors are more common in some of those groups in some places than elsewhere. And there are plenty of residents of those places who will tell you stories about how those groups behave. That doesn’t mean that it’s an accurate reflection of the group as whole or an appropriate response to questions about portrayals of a certain group in a particular media.
If you had been asked about portrayals of Muslims and had gone off on a rant about Sharia law or Palestinian anti-Semitism you had seen in Israel would you be so quick to dismiss it as a non-issue and deny you had acted poorly? If another writer talked about what they had seen in gay bars or what they were told about the behavior of Jewish landlords by a real estate agent after witnessing an act of racism would you so casually dismiss it? Do you accept at face value what cops tell you about how minority residents of poor community behave or do you apply some critical thinking?
I agree that the fan was out of line and (until now sadly) there was no evidence of any kind of prejudice on your part. I agree that what you saw was horrific and child abuse should be condemned no matter where and why it takes places and cultural norms do not excuse it. I do not agree that recounting the story of what you had seen was an appropriate response or that trying to explain it without apologizing is a good idea. Finally I wholeheartedly agree that you should have kept your big mouth shut.
Christopher Quinn and others: Great work standing up to the Petty Tyrant. I’m certainly enjoying this.
I suggest you point out how poorly his books sell these days. He HATES that.
One lame troll begets another.
I guess by that logic, all of America should be dismissed as monsters because of the failings of your foster care system, the high rate of child poverty, Flint, etc.
I don’t think anyone’s trying to deny your anecdotal experiences within Romania and how horrific they were (and I’m sure they were), merely pointing out that they shouldn’t reflect upon an entire, diverse group of people.
Look, here are some salient facts.
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Peter has written Roma characters since 1993 that he treated quite well in the writing.
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Not all Roma live the style associated with the Gypsy, but many do.
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Do the things Peter and others claim exist in modern times in fact exist? Yes. I say that based on three things.
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1- We have actual, verifiable news stories documenting what many here have said are only myth and racist lies.
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Romanian gipsy gang ‘snatched 200 children from homes to use them as beggars’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/romania/8027694/Romanian-gipsy-gang-snatched-200-children-from-homes-to-use-them-as-beggars.html
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Gardai have rescued a 12-year-old Roma Gypsy girl from kidnappers who tried to ‘marry’ her to a 15-year-old boy, it emerged last night.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/23/ireland
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I can produce more, but multiple links in a post send it to the spam filter, and multiple posts in rapid succession of links begins to have the same effect on posts.
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But, here, copy and paste and Google this.
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“Exclusive: Gypsy woman reveals her abuse on ‘American Gypsy Wedding'”
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You should get a link to a Today article.
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Highlights? A woman saying that she “admits that sometimes, she hates the Romani lifestyle because of what she’s been through.”
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What has she been through? Being married off to a 17-year-old when 19. Being told to get an abortion by her then husband and when refusing waking up to being beaten in her sleep. A miscarriage followed. That was her second marriage. IN her first marriage she was beaten and locked into rooms by her husband. When she fled to her families home, she was told by her family to go back to him because “that was the gypsy tradition.”
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Though she was abused, Mellie said she never pressed charges. “Gypsies don’t believe in that.” I can attest to that being a fact in many cases. As can other police officers in the states. There’s a “code of honor” in many Gypsy groups that is unfortunately like gang culture.
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You stay in or you get out. She chose to get out.
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“Mellie, who’s now dating an Italian man, said she’s learned her lesson. “I will never go with another gypsy (guy),” she said. “A non-gypsy man I would marry and have a life with.” But that’s not all. “I don’t care how many hoops I have to jump through … lay one hand on me and I’m gone.”
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Again, we all know- Peter included -that this is not all Roma. But the fact is that there is a lot of this found in the many who still live even here in the states under the codes of conduct of the Gypsy.
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In modern times- in countries that no one would consider third world -we still see portions of the Roma community who live down to the worst of the “Gypsy” name. The more third world you get, the worse it gets. Not a fact isolated to Gypsies, but I’ll get to that below. Oh, we also know that not all Gypsies are Roma anymore. We know that the Tuatha De Danann and Fir Bolgs (later called Irish Travelers and still later Irish Gypsies or just Gypsies) exist today in a number of countries including the US. So, no, not all crime or illegal activity assigned to “Gypsies” is of Roma origin.
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2- I work in law enforcement. In my state we have Roma. From these areas where we have many Roma we have some groups of full-on Gypsies. When we cover organized groups to be aware of with regards to high criminal activity in the region, they get mentioned. Fortunately it’s not child mutilation, but it’s a lot of con jobs, theft, and other nonviolent crime.
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Again, we don’t assume or teach that it’s being done by all Roma, and Peter didn’t say it was all Roma, but the fact is that it’s there.
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3- I knew someone for quite some time who was second generation American, first generation born here. His parents were Roma, from the same part of the world Peter visited. When his heritage came up- typically due to very interested ladies as he often had many very interested ladies around him -he honestly answer that he didn’t really keep up any cultural practices. His parents wanted him as “Americanized” as possible, and actively tried t keep him away from anyone who followed the gypsy lifestyle when growing up.
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If pushed for why, he’d tell you that his parents would denounce that lifestyle. They’d tell him things done back in the old country by those living the Gypsy lifestyle that ranged from unethical and against the law to borderline atrocity. They sought to escape that, and they didn’t want him associating with it in any way here in the states.
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Now, we did get into some interesting conversations about the lifestyle, and a valid point was occasionally brought up even if it was one that didn’t condone such actions. It’s actually similar to what we see in discussions about the effects of poverty on criminal statistic here in major US cities.
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The Roma have in fact been persecuted for centuries. After multiple decades of facing persecution and being ostracized, what would a group start doing to survive? If you were not allowed access to what everyone else around you was legally allowed access to, how would you eventually go about seeking survival? When the common law of the lands around you not only fails to protect you but in fact persecutes you, what would you see as allowable actions to survive in those lands.
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From there you start getting into matters of relative perspective. If you start living by the idea that A, B, and C are allowable, why is D, E, and F so wrong? At that point you get into where factions begin to split off. Many groups won’t go full on crazy, some will. The longer those groups live in areas with the same issues and live under the same code, the more G, H, and I seem like less of a stretch even as others- like his parents if not others in their family -decide that it’s not a good idea to go that route.
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It’s like with any other group of people. You will get factions that take survival and actions they believe allowed them because of society’s injustice’s towards them too far. That doesn’t mean all of them- whichever them is being discussed at any given time -or even most of them, but they are there.
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As for representation, again, Peter took Quicksilver, a character of Roma heritage, and made him more likable, sympathetic, and respectable than many who wrote the character before him. Yeah, he was still a bit of a dìçk, but that was just a part of his personal nature unrelated to heritage. It was in fact established under Peter’s writing of the character that it was more a problem caused from his powers.
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As for other positive representation- As in what? The one thing the original questioner at the panel, others here dog-piling, and others elsewhere even before now have not done is suggest anything. From conversations I’ve had with the guy I mentioned above and others who claim strong Roma heritage, you basically have two ways to go. You either have people who are- as my friend’s parents put it -“Americanized” or acting to blend in with the dominant cultural norms of the country they’re in or those who start to move towards the more nomadic, tribal tendencies and practices of the more negative ideas of Gypsy culture.
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So, other than stereotypes like DC’s Gypsy was or that was found in some horror films as the “good Gypsy” helping to fight the magics of the “bad Gypsies” in the story, describe what you would want to see as a positive character portrayal in comics.
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Seriously, it beats just complaining and whining and beats the hëll out of attacking someone for accurately describing what they (and others) once saw in an extremely poverty stricken part of what some might have already called a third-world country back in 1993.
As a Romanian I would like to point to the fact that you’re quoting the Tory mouthpiece, which even if true, is one of the many papers who have used specific instances of crime, as abhorrent as they might be, to whip up racism and xenophobia, to bring about Brexit and an unelected government, which seems to be waging a war on common decency by targeting foreign workers and their children. Fascism is here and you’re quoting it.
Paul Suciu,
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Congratulations. You’re an idiot.
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No, seriously. You’re an idiot. You looked at three news stories, ignored two of them, chose one of them, admitted it’s true but blew it off with a “look at the source” comment, and then spewed nonsensical and off topic talking points.
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You also ignored every other substantive point I tried to raise as well as choosing to ignore the one request I made in order to whine a bit more.
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You’re an idiot.
I don’t know enough about Romani history to comment about that-I can find that out easily enough. I also don’t doubt for a moment Peter saw enough child abuse on that trip to leave anyone sickened. It’s the stuff of nightmares, and anyone who’s seen real horror can tell you that you can relive it anytime years later. I also love his work-The thing is, whatever Peter’s original points were about what he saw, his argument fizzled and died the moment he completely lost his šhìŧ and started screaming. He lost the high ground and any validity he had when he lost it with that kid. He said himself he’s never blown up at a fan-I’ll take that at face value. Personally speaking, I don’t think he’s a racist; I’d bet money he had was a mini PTSD flashback at the worst possible time. But now the argument is no longer “Horrifying Child Abuse Peter saw in Roma” but “Peter David: Caveman Racist” and Peter shares some responsibility for this. Peter shouldn’t be surprised that the debate wheeled back onto him personally and not on his issues. In public debate, style counts as much as substance. Peter oughta know this better than anyone-the man’s a master debater, expert storyteller, and showman to boot. But we saw none of that here. In that heavily edited passage we saw righteous bully. All he needed to do was interrupt the guy every five seconds to make the image complete. Come to think of it, he did do that (“I don’t Care! I. Don’t! CARE!”) I don’t think he’s a racist, I think he’s a decent man who lost it and then lost any traction with what point he was trying to make. Style won out.
I, too, do still think that at his core he is a decent man, but some of what has been said, and especially HOW it has been said… Well, as I said in my earlier post in this thread, I can’t help but be a bit disappointed. (Not to say I am perfect every day myself, mind you. But I’m sure I have disappointed people at times, myself.)
“he thing is, whatever Peter’s original points were about what he saw, his argument fizzled and died the moment he completely lost his šhìŧ and started screaming. He lost the high ground and any validity he had when he lost it with that kid. “
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Which by every report out there he realized and apologized for at the panel itself. He apologized at the panel for losing it and replying in the manner he did.
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So he lost his temper at the panel and he apologized for that at the panel all before the first internet story had been posted.
So obviously this is a divisive issue, and it’s difficult to argue with Mr. David over what he has seen with his own eyes. However, in taking a really cursory, by no means scientific look for any corroborating evidence on the internet I found articles stating that there are indeed children being crippled and sent out to beg in Bucharest, but reported cases all point to criminal gangs kidnapping the children, rather than this being done by the parents. This practice is also found in Beijing, Mumbai, perhaps any large city with an underclass with diminished civil rights whose impoverished families have little recourse with authorities. The only hit (and I repeat again, in my really cursory glance) that stated parents were crippling their own children as fact was from a message board called Stormfront. And yes, Stormfront is exactly what it sounds like. In short, things aren’t always what they seem.
Well, if nothing else. Reading first the articles that take what they want out of this, then this post. Led me to read up on racism against Roma/(romani?) in the U.S.
So, er, thanks for causing me to expand my horizons.
I’ll never look at the word Gypp again in the same light. It’s short for gypsy. per searching for word origins
I could have expanded beyond that. Indeed I’ve found a lot of sites talking about 70s, 80s, even 90s persecution. Including child services at times removing light skinned blue-eyed romani children. Because “obviously” they were kidnapped. The Bronx area was one part listed as where that happened.
One of the articles talked about a woman finally reuniting with her mother in early 90s. After child services had put her into adoption away from her parents.
So.. why was mine deleted?
No idea.
PAD
wilder125
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It likely wasn’t deleted. Look again.
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The site has had an odd bug about it recently. When you first load the page the last hour or so of posts sometimes don’t appear. You refresh the page and you get the most recent posts back again. Sometimes it even happens when you post a comment, but not as often.