Now people are bìŧçhìņg because Obama didn’t mention God in his Thanksgiving address?
Here’s a thought: How about people complain because he didn’t mention that we screwed over Native Americans? Certainly that’s certainly as relevant to the day, if not more so.
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To answer you question, Mr. David: Because people don’t want to be reminded of the black pages in their countries history. Because they don’t want to know that the world was forged in bloodshed, slavery and deceit. And that is not just true in the USA. You think the Dutch have clean hands ? Hëll, no. We were monsters in Indonesia…and lets not forget that ‘wonderful’ Dutch invention of apartheid. Not to mention all the Dutch traitors who abandoned their homeland and fought for the SS on the eastern front during WW-2. No, our hands are not clean. There is not a country on this planet that doesn’t have blood on its hands. And we must never forget that.
How about people not complain and just be thankful for one freaking day?
That would be something to be thankful for, I agree. To Obama’s critics, there is no day that is exempt from finding something to bìŧçh about.
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I know. I just can’t figure out WHY. I know I wasn’t happy with a lot of things W. Bush did. I just ignored him half the time to save my sanity. It can’t be healthy being so angry all the time.
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I remember when Obama was going to make the speech to the children in schools, a mother came into my kids’ school and started yelling at the school secretary. Because somehow or another, this *must* have been her fault. I hadn’t even heard about it yet, and this woman was going off because her son was going to be brainwashed by the President to…? IDK. When I asked what was going on, mostly to save the poor school secretary, she said, “You have to know that Hussein Obama is going to brainwashing our kids!”
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“Obama?”
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“Yeah, the man who is illegally our president is going to be brainwashing all of our kids on Friday and turning them into Muslims and you have to keep your kids out of the school if you don’t want it to happen!”
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“Now, I don’t know anything about this, but if he’s going to be speaking to the schoolkids of the country, do you really think it’s going to be anything other than, ‘Stay in school and try your best?'”
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“And become Muslims and bomb us all!”
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I really didn’t know how to respond to that. Because she honestly thought that that’s what was going to happen. And her kid is in my daughter’s class. (And we’ve had other run-ins since then. I don’t think all anti-Obama people are like this. But I think that it’s an example of what people who only listen to an echo-chamber can become.)
Sounds like in that case of yours, Miriam, we should all worry far more about the mother brainwashing her child than Obama.
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And also worry about that far more than whether Obama mentions invisible beings in the sky or not.
Good lord, Miriam. A caricature of a Obama critic made flesh?
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It’s terrifying when strawmen come to life.
Craig,
Well, to some extent, I think we all brainwash our kids. I personally think her brand of brainwashing is a bit scarier than mine of “Don’t eat food off the floor and try and use good manners,” but brainwashing happens every day.
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It’s terrifying having to be on the PTA with her. Thankfully I don’t have to deal with her much. Just enough to want to curl up in a ball and cry each time.
It’s not brainwashing when it’s teaching kids stuff you agree with.
Politically, do you think Obama could have said that about Thanksgiving and survived it in the polls?
Fox News actually ran the numbers. Obama’s 2 for 3 in Godding on Turkey Day. Bush II was 7 for 8. Clinton was 4 for 8.
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This is like the Birther crap. It gives the Obama apologists an excuse to blow of the legit criticisms. And like the whole Birther crap, it needs to die.
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J.
What about Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Odin, Zues, Gaia, Buddha, %insert your religion’s diety here%?
America is supposededly a melting pot of different cultures, except of course, christian is the only one that counts….
Don’t be silly. Haven’t you heard? How can Christianity be the only one that counts when there’s a war on Christmas?
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I’ve been laughing at the ‘war on Christmas’ since the first time I heard it. If there’s a war on any holiday it’s Thanksgiving. Go to any store from June to February. This how the decorations go:
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June/July: Fourth of July, Back to School
July/August: Back to School
September: Halloween
October: Halloween/Christmas
November: Christmas
December: Christmas/New Years/Valentine’s Day (seriously, Cupids fly amongst Santa Clause.) If you’re lucky, you might even see a Menorah or Chanukah Ham*, because stores are socially aware like that.
January: Valentine’s Day
February: Valentine’s Day/St. Patrick’s Day
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There’s no room for being thankful for what you have. Black Friday might be advertised, but that’s really a part of Christmas, not Thanksgiving. The only stores that might have Thanksgiving deals/specials/ads are grocery stores, and that’s because they want you to buy their turkeys.
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*Chanukah Hams were advertised at a store in New York, I believe. I’m not making that up. My synagogue had fun with it though.
I celebrate shab-e Yalda around Christmas. I’m Persian and I enjoy celebrating Zoroastrian holidays which just so happen to coincide with most holidays. This whole “war on Christmas” or finding fault with every holiday is so foolish to me. It is almost as if some people don’t want other people to have a good time. God doesn’t need to be invited to every party you know.
Oh and Miriam, that lady who went to your kids school is crazy.
Bladestar: What about Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Odin, Zues, Gaia, Buddha, %insert your religion’s diety here%?
America is supposededly a melting pot of different cultures, except of course, christian is the only one that counts….
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If Thanksgiving were purely a civic holiday, then it should be either all inclusive or areligious. However, since the traditional narrative of Thanksgiving points to Christian origins, it is somewhat understandable that the focus is largely on the Christian God.
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Of course, the reality of the Plymouth colony and the full history of Thanksgiving-as-American-holiday is a bit more complicated, so there is certainly room for discussion on that point.
“America is supposededly a melting pot of different cultures, except of course, christian is the only one that counts….”
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I was reading an article not too long ago that said that we should get away from the idea of America being a “melting pot.” We instead should move to a “Stew” concept. The idea being that immigrants shouldn’t being letting their identities “melt away” into the whole, but rather maintain the distinctive parts of their own ingredient-identity and let the flavor of that identity enhance to whole of the stew.
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Interesting notion… and it’s making me hungry.
Well, that “traditional narrative” of which you write just really proves that there is no God. God didn’t help the Puritans; it was the Native Americans who got the Puritans through that first difficult year at Plymouth. (Okay–you can argue that God put the Native Americans there to help the Puritans, but that starts a really bizarre bit of circular logic that can drive you crazy.)
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Or, to take another point of view, you could say that the Puritans weren’t sufficiently pious enough to please God since they needed the help of a bunch of “savages” in order to survive. (And I’ve got a feeling that had the Natives known how they were going to be treated within just a few decades after the Puritans landed, they would’ve just let those “illegal aliens” get by on their own; the Natives might not have been able to deport those unwanted people but they certainly could’ve quit offering the undocumented English as much welfare as they did.
JosephW: Well, that “traditional narrative” of which you write just really proves that there is no God.
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Well, at best it’s evidence against the Christian God (the Flying Spaghetti Monster is under no compulsion to aid Christians, pious or otherwise). But even that doesn’t hold up. There’s nothing in the Bible that says “If you are sufficiently pious and please me, your life will be nothing but sunshine and gum drops.” In fact, the Bible says that believers (and everyone) should expect trials and difficulties in this life, as a consequence of the fallen state of the world.
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Also, could you elaborate on the “circular logic” that ensues if the Native Americans are part of the help God provides? I’m afraid I can’t quite complete the circle myself.
However, since the traditional narrative of Thanksgiving points to Christian origins
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The Pilgrims came to America seeking religious freedom and tolerance, a fact which has obviously been forgotten.
Craig J. Ries: The Pilgrims came to America seeking religious freedom and tolerance, a fact which has obviously been forgotten.
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Very true. Sadly, it was forgotten even by the colonial Puritans themselves (cf. the Salem Witch trials, the founding of Rhode Island, etc.).
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My point was that, given the heritage of Thanksgiving, I don’t necessarily think there’s a problem with public observances retaining a Christian focus. But I will grant that the situation is complicated because it is not purely a religious holiday either.
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However, I also don’t think the Christian elements need to be mandated or required, precisely because of the heritage of religious freedom you mention. If the President doesn’t mention God, so be it. If folks want to give thanks to Allah or the divine spirit within the turkey or the fine people at Butterball, they should be free to do so.
Sadly, it was forgotten even by the colonial Puritans themselves (cf. the Salem Witch trials, the founding of Rhode Island, etc.).
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Well, if anything, the Puritans were pretty much the opposite of the Pilgrims: the Puritans ended up in America because they felt that Protestantism in England didn’t go far enough after the Reformation. And, as you point out, tolerance certainly wasn’t something they practiced either.
When I saw the story on Yahoo News the other day, I couldn’t believe what I was reading.
With the level of complaining about it, you would’ve thought he said Santa Rocks, Christ Sucks.
Let us not forget the best part…
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All this dìçk waving (cuz that’s really all it is these days) over a speech that centers around an event that took place before the United States of America was even founded.
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Hey, I’m just thankful to live in a country that wants to solve problems in the present instead of guessing the contents of the hearts and minds of those who have been dead for hundreds of years. Oh, wait…
Hey, I’ve got an idea. Why don’t these áššlìçkërš who complain about God’s non-presence in a government speech* go out and PROVE His/Her/Their/ presence by feeding someone that they know who is hungry this year? Not just for Thanksgiving, not just for Christmas – hungry people are hungry year round. Donate to a soup kitchen, volunteer some time making peanut butter sandwiches – anyone can make PBJs, wrap ’em up, and hand them out. If your budget could afford it, maybe get some apples too – not too expensive by the case.
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THAT’S what God (et.al.) wants this holiday season, and all year long. No one hungry.
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*Don’t I remember a separation of church and state in the Constitution? Do these people whine about THAT??? And if so, which “god” gets mentioned?
“Tim Tebow praying to much and Obama not mentioning God” Seriously!?
This is the kind of news that shouldn’t even be printed.
Why can’t people just stop being so petty and let these guys do there job.
My mother-in-law is Native American and she loves Obama but if he did mention screwing over Native Americans, well lets juts say it wouldn’t have gone over very well with her. And the last thing I need is an angry mother-in-law, so Obama made the right speech.
If these folks were motivated by sincere concern for honoring God, I might consider being sympathetic. But if, as it seems, the goal is scoring cheap points in an election cycle, then it is far more dishonoring. Particularly if the intent was to cast aspersions on Obama’s personal faith, which IMHO is unassailable and irrelevant.
And speaking of G-d and politics, Bill Maher had a great line a few weeks ago. He said three GOP candidates said G-d had told them to run, which means he’s f—ing with two of them.
Or that the candidates in question are actually polytheists.
I also heard that there was complaints about Obama pardoning the turkey too.
Yeah, it’s a silly tradition, but all the Presidents have been doing it ( including GW) for years now. It’s harmless so criticism of it is just B**ching for the sake of it.
And they wonder why folks are fed up?
Well, actually, the people bìŧçhìņg about the turkeys being pardoned were not the ussual Obama critics. The griping I saw was from leftists who felt the practice somehow made light of capital punishment, and was a deplorable tongue in cheak insult of some sort.
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Just goes to show, with all the millions of people in the world, there are always going to be someone, somewhere, who was a gripe about everything. I’m not sure if there is a single thing that a President can do that wouldn’t generate a complaint on how it was done.
It’s more than apparent that the given an inch on any opening to criticize the president, Obama-hating wackos will always take a light-year. Of course it’s not surprising that this latest example has gotten media attention as though it’s truly indicative of some immoral chasm in Obama’s character; the so-called “left-wing” media always wants make sure they can show their far-rightwing critics that they can deviate from the “non-stop praising” of the president that they’re always being accused of. Since Bush 43’s administration I’ve had to deal with several Fox News-guzzling zombies in my office who are founts of talking points, and when Obama took office one of them in particular would take advantage of any chance to confront me and provide “proof” of his incompetence straight from the lips of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and other hating sycophants. I was able to get that guy to back off a couple of years ago by writing him some very detailed e-mails knocking down his favorite litany of criticisms (e.g. health care, tax-cuts, the stimulus, tea-party racism) that included proven, unbiased references; he half-hearted tried to refute my information basically by repeating the same lame talking points, but eventually be he gave up trying to get me to, as he’d put it, ”stop drinking the liberal Kool-Aid”, although I suspect he knew that he was really coming off as an ill-informed idiot. I always make it a point never to “throw the first punch” in confronting these morons, but I do make it clear that I’m never shy in defending my Kool-Aid drinking ways.
He didn’t mention Superman or the Easter Bunny either.
Poor, persecuted Christian. They’re the most powerful group in America, but still they whine. And they whine because the President isn’t namedroping God with sufficient frequency? Wow, that is horrible! Gimme a break.
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It doesn’t help that Liberals also act like PC idiots sometimes. You gotta have a very thin skin if you’re going to be offended by the word “Christmas” because it isn’t inclusive enough. Why not focus on more important issues, such as religious people pushing abstinence-only sex education?
Re: Liberals acting like PC idiots… well, you generally hear more from the right complaining about the liberals complaining than the liberals actually doing any complaining. I complained at my kid’s school when they had to make a countdown to Christmas calendar. (Public school.) The three Jewish kids in my daughter’s class got to make a countdown to Chanukah calendar… except Chanukah, at that point, was in three days, the teacher didn’t KNOW when Chanukah was, and they still had to use the red and green strips of paper that the rest of the class used. I suggested that in future years, they just make a countdown to winter break calendar so the entire class (there are Jahovah’s Witnesses in the class, too who just sat out of the activity.) would get to participate. I’m not sure if that was complaining so much as trying to make everything more inclusive. I’m sure if I had gone to the media (really, who does that?) it would have been, LIBERAL MOTHER MAKES A BIG DEAL OUT OF CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS AT SCHOOL!
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I also don’t kick up a fuss if the store clerk wishes me Merry Christmas. (And I like collecting old postcards from stores and families… Happy Holidays and Seasons Greetings has been on them since at least the 30s… this ‘war’ has been going on for awhile.)
I know I’m appearing insensitive, but I don’t see it as a big deal that the Jewish kids had to countdown to Christmas. I mean, what pratical effects does it have for them? Does it inconvenience them in any major way to countdown to Christmas? Is there anything more harmless than Christmas? I’m not Christian and I celebrate Christmas. the festivities have lost most of their religious meaning already. I see it as Americans fixating on form over content. Like fighting racism by banning a few chosen words.
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I think we Liberals should conserve our strength for more important things. Like fighting creationism presented as science. Things that really can warp young minds. Or harmful things like demonizing sex and keeping teens ignorant of condons and preconceptives.
I meant contraceptives.
Well, it’s actually a religious issue, depending on the observance level of the Jewish kids. Avodah Zarah can extend to any sort of Christian Imagery, and the whole “don’t cut down trees and decorate them with silver” is kind of taken seriously in observant Jewish households. It really sucks taking away a project your kid has worked on and throwing it away the day they bring it home because it clashes with your religious beliefs. And in observant Jewish households, those are important.
Miriam, Christmas has been so throughly secularized, that most Christmas icons and symbols have far commercial meaning than religious.
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If bringing home a harmless Christmas toy the kids built in school would qualify as idolatry to a Jew, then I suppose I would have for them the same sympathy that I have for Christians who believe buying a Superman action figure is a form of idolatry.
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Of course, no one should have their religious convictions disrespected gratuituously. The parents should’ve been notified and the kids allowed to beg off the assignment if so desired by the parents.
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But man… fighting to replace the Christmas assignment with Winter assigment or something just because a few people are offended to be invited to participate in a totally harmless festival with their Christian friends… count me out of that fight.
The Stay Puft marshmallow man seemed harmless…
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This is a tough nut to crack. It seems like we can do better than “Hey, it’s Christmas! It’s not just for Christians anymore (pay no attention to the name)! What’s the big deal?” And just “letting” some kids sit things out seems against the spirit of education.
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On the other hand, there are those who get upset when the Christmas countdown becomes a winter break countdown. That wouldn’t be my first choice either (I’d rather try to acknowledge the various traditions than homogenize over them or ignore the minorities), but I can certainly understand if a teacher went that route in an effort to make the most people happy while maintaining some modicum of personal sanity.
Well, what’s the goal of the educational experience? If it’s to teach numbers/counting down, then picking any random day will do. New Years works just as well, and doesn’t really exclude anyone since even the JW I think can acknowledge that the month of December is ending then. (These are ring-chains that the kids pull off each day and hopefully remember to do.)
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If it’s to learn about the Christmas holiday itself… I think there are probably better venues than public school to teach about it. (Unless you have each kid talk about their own family’s traditions this time of year. That I can get behind. And our school does that, too, at various times during the year.)
Miriam – all perfectly reasonable suggestions. The problem is not a lack of reasonable options, the problem is finding one that everyone will acknowledge as a reasonable option.
Why not have all the kids do a countdown to Chanukah? Would it onconveniance the Christians?
That would be okay by me too.
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Doing countdowns to Christmas, Chanukah or any random day chosen by throwing a dart at a callendar will not cause any harm to the kids.
Aside from all of the frivolousness, and at risk of a flaming (since the majority of folks seem to be of one opinion on this matter), I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with wanting a president to give his due respect to God on a holiday that’s about giving thanks. Nothing more wrong than someone thinking I shouldn’t think that, at least.
I suppose there is nothing wrong with wanting things. I want to be a millionaire and to have a harem of beautiful, willing women.
Rene, I understand that. It’s a bit more than something like Superman, though. The underlying theme of Christmas is still a religious holiday. Yes, a Jewish family *could* choose to say, “Meh, it’s a secular thing.” But they don’t have to, and, like I said, depending on observance levels, many won’t. (My family would probably depend on the symbol. Santa Claus is secular, Christmas tree falls into a weird grey area, and nativity scenes are religious.)
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Here’s the thing, though. The teacher separates the kids by religion. (I have no idea what the Hindu kids do, the school has a fair number of them too.) I didn’t make that decision, that’s what the teacher does. Then they do this assignment. The kids celebrating Christmas do their countdown to Christmas. The kids celebrating Chanukah do the countdown to Chanukah. Except that half the time they don’t know when Chanukah is because no one really makes a big deal out of Chanukah except when it needs to compete with Christmas. And the JW kids sit out. EVERYONE in the class is going on break in a few weeks. It doesn’t exclude anyone to do that. It doesn’t make the Jewish kids feel weird for not knowing when their holiday is. It doesn’t make the JW kids feel weird for not celebrating a holiday.
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It’s not about being offended. I wasn’t offended by the teacher not knowing when Chanukah was. I wouldn’t have even been offended if she had my daughter make a countdown to Christmas calendar. I was more annoyed than anything else. You make it sound like I went in fighting, and I didn’t. I pointed out that there was a way to make the entire thing more inclusive for everyone. I was talking with the teacher after class and suggested it. That’s it. It wasn’t a huge fight. I didn’t bring in the rabbis from my Synagogue or the ADL or the ACLU.
Miriam, I believe in respecting minorities. But I don’t believe in watering down majority traditions just so that a minority won’t be offended or feel weird. In that I disagree with the PC crowd.
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Take a prom dance as an example. I think gay students should be allowed to take their same sex partners as dates. But if the school prints invitations with the picture of a girl and a boy dancing, I don’t think they should replace the picture with two figures of indistinct gender dancing just to avoid offending the gay students. That would be PC idiocy in action.
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Creating a “winter break” assignment so that 5 kids in a class (of how many?) won’t feel weird? Sorry, no. Minorities should be treated with courtesy and humanity, but they shouldn’t de-rail all the rest.
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Another example would be vegetarianism. Say, I think it’s mandatory that they include a few vegetarian dishes in the school cafeteria to appeal to vegetarian kids. But I don’t think they should get rid of all the meat dishes and replace them with intermediate dishes just so the vegetarian minority won’t feel weird.
This isn’t a tradition. This is a classroom assignment. Well, I suppose it’s a tradition in the school, in that this particular teacher does a version of it every year, but unless you have her as a teacher each year, you wouldn’t know that.
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I agree.
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15-17. This was second grade. It’s about a third of the class that can’t participate in a Christmas-only themed assignment. There were the three Jewish kids and two JW that I knew of. (Their parents just kept them home on Halloween and other party days and they weren’t allowed to have Birthday cupcakes I brought in.)
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I agree.
I thought it was more like 30 or 40 kids, like in a public school in my country.
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A third of the class is a pretty big minority. In that case it would be the practical thing to do to replace Christmas with winter break.
30-40? Yikes! My son’s 4th grade class has 25 kids, and I think that’s huge. Jr. High around here has 30 or so, but my kids’ principal has capped the classes at 25 for 4-6 and 20 for under third grade. (And he tries to keep it well below 20 if at all possible.) There’s a reason I went out of district for this school. OTOH, I have to deal with crazy lady from above…
Actually, I’d be inclined to recommend that all the kids create a calendar that counts down to the significant dates of the season for each group identified by the teacher: Christmas, Chanukah, start of winter break, New Year’s. If there’s a chunk of Hindu kids, or Arab kids, and they have a big holiday coming up, include that. Allow the kids to note special days that are unique to them (odds are reasonable one kid might have a birthday in the time span covered). It might be appropriate to send home a note to parents, asking for any special events the teacher might not know about (though risky, as some smart-áššëš would be likely to make stuff up). For that matter, if I had been in Miriam’s shoes, I *would* have been somewhat annoyed about the 3-day countdown – I’m pretty sure that most calendars that note common “special” days include the start of Chanukah.
I wouldn’t think of that as “PC idiocy”, but as an opportunity to learn a little about one’s classmates.
I would not fault the teacher for providing materials following the color scheme that both she and the plurality of the students would expect, unless she had reason to know that those colors would actually be notably offensive to some of the kids’ parents. Trying to figure out appropriate color schemes for each holiday, and the right breakdown of materials for the kids in the class, while it might be nice, could actually be more problematic than sticking with a single color scheme skewed towards one group.
Of course, for the subversive, coach your kids a little, and have them start up a countdown to Chanukah calendar – when Chanukah for *this* year has already started, so the calendar would obviously have to be for Chanukah *next* year….
Yes, 30-40 kids a class was more or less the norm here in Brazil when I was a kid.
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I remember we had one year of Bible class in public school here, that was in the early 1980s.
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I am not religious now, and I was not religious then, but Bible class was lots of fun, I remember. The teacher was a kind lady, and she had miniatures and picture books with Biblical scenes. I saw it as fairy tale class, and it was a relief after math and stuff.