We’ve been hearing all this bìŧçhìņg about how we should build walls so that Mexicans couldn’t come flooding into our country and take all the jobs. The left wing counter to this philosophy has always been that the only jobs they’re taking are the ones that Americans didn’t want in the first place.
But now it’s been reported that Iranians wanted to hire assassins to take out the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the US. And who did they endeavor to hire?
Mexicans.
Goddammit, what’s wrong with good old American assassins? Don’t Iranians watch television? Don’t they have the slightest idea of the high caliber (no pun intended) of contract killers we have here in the states? We’ve got wise guys, we’ve got Yakuza. We’ve got street gangs, for crying out loud. We’ve got more bullets flying than JFK has airplanes. And they’re reaching out to a Mexican drug cartel? Really?
That’s just insulting.
PAD
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And you’re going to Gotham for the weekend? Keep your head down….
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But the Mexican assassins are willing to do it for just 10 percent of what the American assassins want for the job and they don’t have to pay them benefits.
Ðámņ, I had a feeling when I read PAD’s post someone would beat me to this joke…
What I find more “insulting” is your nonchalant depravity and cynicism concerning a very serious problem (illegal immigration) that is costing American lives in parts of our country.
Chill, dude.
Yeah, sure. “Chill.” We should all just be “chill” that Phoenix, AZ is the kidnapping capitol of the US and that US citizen ranch owners are getting killed along our border by Mexican dregs.
Illegal immigration is costing lives? Talk about hyperbole. The lack of illegal immigration is costing farmers millions in Alabama and going to cost consumers millions at the grocery.
how much are the farmers paying?
Bill, that’s an issue, of course. Which is why illegal aliens need protection from doing difficult work at substandard wages. And while we’re at it, we’ll also provide them with healthcare, free education, and a lot of other “free” government funded support because…. well, that’s the compassionate thing to do. And why stop there? Let’s just grant amnesty so that they have full voting rights and they can then participate in the elections where they will predominately vote for Democrats.
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Because that’s what this is really about.
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Can’t wait for 2013.
Bill Mulligan
Well that’s the thing isn’t it, how much are the farmers paying. They claim $12 an hour, the migrants claims far less. And since most of the time it’s via cash and not check, well what would you guess? But even $12 is poverty level wages with tons of backbreaking work being exposed to carcinogens and horrid working conditions.
Georgia’s alternative was to send in people on probation, 90% walked off the job by noon complaining the pay and conditions weren’t worth it. One farmer tried high school students, again they didn’t return the next day. We’ve become fat and lazy and I hate to say it but there are jobs we just won’t do any more and the migrants fill in the holes.
Tim Butler,
I wonder where you’d be today if the immigration officials had slammed the door in your ancestors faces. It doesn’t matter what country people came from. Butler is of Irish descent or English and guess what, when the great famine hit Ireland and large amounts of Irish began the immigration to the US, American citizens whined and complained about all the Irish settlers coming into the states. Where would you be if your ancestors were sent packing!
Brian,
Regardless of when my ancestors came to this country, they did it legally. Favoring law enforcement does not constitute lack of compassion or “slamming the door” in anyone’s face. I have dear friends who came to this country legally. It was a very long, trying process. They have no sympathy for those who thumb their noses at our laws and come here illegally. I agree with them.
Tim Butler:
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And do you plan to vote for Herman Cain, Michelle Bachman or one of the other wingnuts?
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As to your ancestors arriving “legally” – don’t bet on it. The borders were awfully porous in them there days, and a lot of immigrants – from good European stock, not them infeeryore Mexicuns – slipped in rather less than legally.
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One of our best-loved children’s authors – Will James, author of Smoky, a Cow Horse was an illegal immigrant – a French-Canadian horse thief who gave a false name when he was arrested in Montana and lived in the US the rest of his life on the basis of his prison release papers….
Hmmm – that was not supposed to be all bold.
Mike, Regardless of your baseless speculation on whether or not my ancestors came into this country legally (I do know enough of my family history to know that they did and at least one of my forefathers played a very prominent role in American history), that has no bearing on the fact that my stand is that immigration law should be enforced. I do not support breaking the law. Do you? Do you support illegal immigration?
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2013, where are you????
Can’t wait for 2013.
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I know, I’m looking forward to Obama’s 2nd term as well! 😉
Craig,
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Glad that was a joke.
See, this is where I have questions. Let’s say they are paying people $15 an hour to pick tomatoes. Let’s say you pick 100 tomatoes in that time, which is pretty slack or you, I might add. That’s a cost of 15 cents per tomato. The tomato sells for $1
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Now we double the wage to $30 an hour. I’ll pick tomatoes for $30 an hour, at least part time. Seriously, anyone in the North Carolina area have tomatoes to pick for $30 an hour, I’m there, call my people. Anyway, people seem to think that this would double the cost of the tomato to the public. Nope. It would add $15 to the final price. And that’s with assuming a really unrealistic number of tomatoes being picked.
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I hear about farmers having to let food rot on the vine and I am dubious that they are really paying what they say they are. hey, here’s a suggestion–charge me $20 for 1 hour of me being able to pick as much as I can carry home. You get $20 for crops that you were going to let rot. Seems painfully obvious but we are always being presented with the choice of either we keep the status quo or food doubles in price and crops rot. I’m not buying it.
That should be “adds 15 cents to the final price”. $15 would be one pricey tomato.
No pun intended? no pun intended my ever widening butt!!! I have only met 4 people in my life who like a bad pun better than me, my buddy Don, the two guys who hosted “A way With Words” on NPR and you sir…. Why I ask after all these years sully our relationship with a lie now?
Well, by going to Mexico the Iranian government did manage to avoid springing for the benefits and higher pay American unionized assassins would want.
I wonder what sort of benefits being in the Guild of Calamitous Intent gives. Certainly none for henchmen…
Well, the Mexican cartels have some really nice military-grade weaponry that the Obama administration gave them with Operation Fast And Furious, so maybe the Iranians figured the Sinaloa guys had the guns, had the way to get across the border, and had the contacts within the government to get the job done.
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J.
And like the good, FoxNoise kool-aid drinker you are, you sort of ignored that the whole “Fast and Furious” plan originated with the BUSH administration (just like the auto industry and banking bailouts or the fact that Solyndra first got their loans during Dubya’s term–since the program was developed by the Dubya White House).
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Of course, it’s more telling how the right-wing are using the “Fast and Furious” program to hide the face that the Koch Brothers (the big financiers behind the “grassroots” Tea Party groups) have been doing business WITH Iran in direct violation of US laws. It’s like the Wizard of Oz after being revealed–“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” When you don’t want YOUR crimes being investigated (hey, Darrel Issa–where are the Congressional subpoenas and investigations into NewsCorp’s little “phone hacking” scandals), start šhìŧ elsewhere.
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JosephW, God knows that I have many times been the first (but never by far the last) in any discussions to point out that, when it comes to political discussions, Jay Tea is one of the biggest mouth breathing, kool-aid drinking, substitute-conservative-fantasy-for facts to ever hit this blog. Jay Tea is someone who, if he had to compose an argument that wasn’t regurgitated talking points and hack conservative blog quotes would be a mute.
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He is however more or less correct here.
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Project Gunrunner started under W.Bush. Operation Fast and Furious was taking a good idea and going too far with it in a clumsy manner and that was started under the current White House and the current Justice Department. Operation Fast and Furious was a massive brain fart made worse by what is looking more and more like lies and cover ups rather than taking responsibility for it.
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While they’ve managed to recover many of the firearms used in the operation, the simple truth is that something like 1,500 guns are still out there. Almost 200 of the guns connected to F&F have been connected to serious crime scenes in Mexico and at least one to the death of United States Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and another to the death of U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement Special Agent Jaime Zapata.
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This was a complete disaster from any point of view and, unlike the economic crash and several other things in the last couple of years that have been massive headaches for both the administration and the country as a whole, this isn’t something that can be added to the massive list of W. Bush blunders that he left for other to clean up. This one is completely the Obama administration’s screw up.
Holy crap, Jerry. Thank you. I know that must have hurt.
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But I do disagree with you on one point — the “official cover story” for F&F makes zero sense whatsoever. There was never any plan to track the guns once they crossed the border, the feds actually helped the cartels get the guns across the border, and no one told Mexico that we were giving the cartels that are killing their citizens by the thousands even more and better weapons.
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I’ve looked into the conspiracy theories, and even they don’t make sense — albeit slightly more sense than the official story. And this could be another one — “we were setting up the Sinaloa cartel so they’d be approached by rogue Iranians.”
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So I’m at the point where I don’t care what the reasoning was — just haul all of ’em into court and let them explain it to the judge and jury.
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J.
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“Holy crap, Jerry. Thank you. I know that must have hurt.”
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No, telling the truth doesn’t hut me in the least. I’ve criticized Obama and his failings before this incident and would do so again with any future failings. I’m not as partisan as you are and don’t feel the need to construct arguments to make “my side” right no matter what.
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The truth here is that the Holder Justice Department made a huge error in judgement and then compounded that error by displaying an amazing level of stupidity and mismanagement of the actual plan of action once it was in in action. The simple truth here is that each piece of new information that comes out shows that some of the testimony and statements made by Holder and others on this matter were not factual.
Was it the Holder DOJ or the ATF that was the mastermind behind F&F? (The Bush era Operation Wide Receiver [also a “gun walking” operation] was IIRC conceived and implemented by the ATF.)
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It was executed by the ATF, but it was run by and cleared by the Justice Department. It’s also been Holder’s Justice Department that has been playing it fast and loose with the facts of the matter insofar as the after disaster spinning and question answering.
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This was a major bungle and everyone involved needs to be either demoted to non-decision making positions or canned all together depending on just how much responsibility they are ultimately found to have in this mess.
Please don’t mention my idiot Congressman’s name on a national blog. The district isn’t big enough for his over inflated ego as it is.
Joseph W,
Really? The “Fast and Furious” program originated with the Bush Administration? Do you actually do any research on these things or feel actual facts are irrelevant – as is logic?
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Is there ANYTHING in your eyes Obama should be blamed for? Is there ANYTHING you DON’T feel is is a problem right now or a failing of or for Obama?
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Solyndra first got their loans under the Bush Administration? That’s the first time I’ve even see that used in an argument anywhere. But even assuming it’s valid, does that mean Obama hasn’t been President for the past three years? Or is the one who visited it and touted it as an ideal? And received memos that the company was a bad investment and going bankrupt and gave them millions anyway?
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But you keep drinking your Kool-Aid and live in a world where nothing Obama does can ever be his fault.
Oh, Jerry…
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The vast majority of recovered F&F guns have been recovered by the Mexican government — and not intentionally, but mostly at crime scenes. And 500-600? That’s 25-30% of the total. Really, really bad stats. That means about 2/3 are still at large.
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And no, this wasn’t TEH EEEVIL ATF doing it. It was ATF agents who were whistle-blowers — one of whom was fired by the Obama appointees. And he is the ONLY one who’s been punished over this whole fiasco.
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You say that “The powers that be simply screwed up and overreached… made an operation that was too big and too unmanageable and they lost control of the situation.” I say they never had a coherent operation in mind.
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You keep ascribing these vast conspiracy theories to me, so let me spell out to you the most common one: Obama is on record as wanting to increase gun control, told the Brady group that he was working on it “under the table,” and announced that 95% of the guns Mexico seized from the cartels were of US origin. That was promptly exposed as a lie — the actual breakdown was the Mexican government suspected that about 20% of those guns were from the US and asked us to check on it — and 95% of those were confirmed of US origin. I dunno if your math is as bad as the rest of your reasoning, but that translates to Obama being off by a factor of 5. Instead of the total being 95%, it was 19%.
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So, at that point, somebody got the bright idea of covering for Obama’s screwup by “fixing” it — by helping the drug cartels get more US guns. The theory was that the guns get into Mexico, they get seized by the government, and the percentage of US-sourced guns goes way up, and — presto! — we have a new reason to restrict gun ownership even more. Obama’s BS becomes closer to reality, the Brady people get their new gun control argument, everybody wins.
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Only problem is, the only people who realized this was bat-$#!+ crazy were the career folks at ATF, DEA, FBI, and the rest. A bunch of them all told the powers that be, but were told to shut up and go along to get along. One ATF agent — Vince Cefalu — spoke up so loudly he was given his walking papers. And, as you noted, several hundred people were murdered, including Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, by these guns.
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Anyway, that’s the most prevalent conspiracy theory. Do I buy into it? No. Nor do I disbelieve it — as I’ve said repeatedly, as crazy as it sounds, it’s actually less crazy than the cover story you’ve swallowed whole. Not by much, I admit, but still more plausible. I’m officially apathetic on the motives — I just want to see the parties hauled into court. Let them explain it to a jury. I don’t care.
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As far as the “act of war,” I stand by that.
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“Hey, Mexico? You know those drug cartels you’re fighting? The ones who’ve killed tens of thousands of your people over the past five years, and are taking over regions of your country, and are threatening your very existence as a nation state? We’ve been supplying some of them with some military-grade weaponry for the past couple of years. Hope you don’t mind. And give our special apologies to State Prosecutor Patricia Gonzalez, whose brother was kidnapped, tortured, and killed by cartel gunmen armed with guns we gave them. Our bad.”
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Tell you what. I’ll go along with the people behind it not being evil. I can (just barely) rationalize it as mind-bogglingly arrogant and utterly focused on their domestic gains that they don’t care about a few hundred Mexicans dying to advance their domestic agenda. Hey, it’s just brown people, right? And they’re in Mexico, so there’s no chance they’ll ever get US citizenship and promptly vote Democrat, so what’s the big deal?
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And one final thing: yes, the Bush administration started the overall program, and even ran a similar operation. But under Bush, the guns in question had tracking devices implanted and all were recovered on the US side of the border.
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You want to keep on apologizing for and making excuses for the people who cooked up and authorized this atrocity that’s already claimed a couple hundred lives. I want them put on trial. How about a compromise — we extradite them to Mexico and let them explain to the Mexicans what the big idea was?
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J.
It’s usually a mistake to assume evil intentions when rank stupidity is a more likely excuse. Nothing the Obama administration has done convinces me they could come up with anything so Machiavellian.
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“You want to keep on apologizing for and making excuses for the people who cooked up and authorized this atrocity that’s already claimed a couple hundred lives.”
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Your reading comprehension skills are just so awesome, Jay. Goes a long way towards explaining your frequent inability to present debating points that resemble reality.
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“And no, this wasn’t TEH EEEVIL ATF doing it. It was ATF agents who were whistle-blowers — one of whom was fired by the Obama appointees.”
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Yes, you mental midget, the whistle blowers were ATF agents. That doesn’t change the documented fact that F&F was an ATF operation.
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Special Agent John Dodson, from his prepared testimony: “Simply put, during this operation known as Fast and Furious, we, ATF, failed to fulfill one of our most fundamental obligations, to caretake the public trust; in part, to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.”
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Agents Olindo James Casa and Peter Forcelli have each testified that they voiced strong opposition to the tactics employed that allowed so many firearms to be sold illegally and that their objections were repeatedly dismissed by ATF superiors. They further stated that ATF officials sent out an e-mail rebuking any who opposed the plan with thinly veiled threats of professional retaliation.
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Testimony that’s come forth so far makes clear again and a gain that this was an ATF operation from the word go. Was the Holder Justice Department involved with this? Undoubtedly. Someone there would have had to okay something this large. Now, recent news would indicate that it was cleared by, or at the very least made known to, Holder himself. But all we have seen of that is that they were briefed on and then cleared to go the operation. The planning, the coordination, the execution and the guarantee of having the overall op under control was the ATF’s.
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Holder and crew aren’t innocent in this though. They should have reviewed an op like this a hëll of a lot better than they apparently did and they are the final “buck stops here” people for things like this. They’re also making the classic political mistake of telling lies and covering up when coming clean, while being damaging, would be less damaging in the long run.
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“Anyway, that’s the most prevalent conspiracy theory. Do I buy into it? No. Nor do I disbelieve it — as I’ve said repeatedly, as crazy as it sounds, it’s actually less crazy than the cover story you’ve swallowed whole. Not by much, I admit, but still more plausible.”
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Right… So you spend half your time talking about how inept Obama and crew are, but then when a conspiracy rolls around that hinges them having to be scheming geniuses you declare it more plausible than something we’ve seen happen over and over again no matter who is in charge.
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This will ultimately be exposed to be exactly what I said it was. This was a good idea on smaller scales that was then increased in size and scope beyond the ability of the people doing it to handle it. This was then followed by a whole lot of CYA actions by ATF higher ups and Holder’s crew that will ultimately take a lot of them down. It’s basically that simple.
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And to even suggest that a conspiracy laden farce that involves Machiavellian plotting by Obama and holder to grab everyone’s guns and boatloads of ATF agents going along with that evil scheme is “still more plausible” than simple screw-ups and CYA stupidity by government officials… Yeah, you’re Jay Tea and apparently you’re that stupid.
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“It’s usually a mistake to assume evil intentions when rank stupidity is a more likely excuse. Nothing the Obama administration has done convinces me they could come up with anything so Machiavellian.”
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Ðámņ it, Bill, stop using words I’m going to use before I read your posts. Now my use of the word “Machiavellian” right after yours makes me look like I’m copying you and coming off as Mulligan-lite. Who wants that?
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Oh, Jay? That 90% figure? Obama didn’t make it up. He got it from the ATF and the DEA.
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In a joint statement presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crimes and Drugs, ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover and Anthony Placido, assistant administrator of intelligence with the Drug Enforcement Administration, clarified that the 90 percent figure is true of guns that were submitted and could be traced:
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Hoover and Placido, March 17, 2009: “Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.”
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So, the ATF and DEA said that 90% of the weapons that could be traced come from the US. I guess they’re the liars and not Obama then. Or you are. Either way.
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Oh, one last thing on the “90%” and then I’m done with it and you for a while.
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The 90% figure Obama mentioned was during a joint press conference with President Felipe Calderón of Mexico. And do you know who else said that in that press conference and referenced it as their data as well?
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PRESIDENT CALDERÓN: “Thank you for your question. I want to say that, in effect, on this topic — not only on this topic, but on many of the other thorny topics of relations between the U.S. and Mexico, we have had an open, frank, trusting conversation between President Obama and myself. We have spoken of assault weapons. He is well aware of our problems.
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And we have described it as it is from the moment that the prohibition on the sale of assault weapons a few years ago, we have seen an increase in the power of organized crime in Mexico. Only in my administration, in the two years and four months, we have been able to see — or rather we have seized more than 16,000 assault weapons. And in the efforts we have made to track their origin — and President Obama has referred to that — we have seen that nearly 90 percent of those arms comes from the United States — those weapons come from the United States. There are about 10,000 sales points in the U.S.-Mexico border — only at the border.”
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Joint-Press-Conference-With-President-Barack-Obama-And-President-Felipe-Calderon-Of-Mexico-4/16/2009/
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Don’t feel too bad about getting caught out not being a member of the reality based community again, Jay. You’re the same guy who declared that you’ve done extensive research into the Tea Party and can say wit authority that no big corporate funds have supported the movement and that they wouldn’t want them anyhow. You’re the same guy who said that you’ve looked into the whole WMD thing and that no official in the Bush administration ever definitively stated that Saddam had WMDs. So, yeah, at this point there’s pretty much no one here anymore who believes you were ever a member of the reality based community anyhow.
Wait, I thought the Iranians already had the guns due to the whole Iran-Contra stuff 25 years ago!?
Jerry: This was a major bungle and everyone involved needs to be either demoted to non-decision making positions or canned all together depending on just how much responsibility they are ultimately found to have in this mess.
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I have to disagree here. It wasn’t a “bungle.” It went down precisely as planned — the plan all along was for the guns to be bought by straw buyers and smuggled into Mexico, where the feds never had any plan or intention of tracing the guns. And quite a few of those recovered guns have been recovered at crime scenes, and are linked to over 200 deaths.
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Finally, I believe “demoted… or canned” isn’t enough. I want jail time, or extradition to Mexico for trial there. This program was pretty much an act of war against Mexico, and we owe them for that.
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J.
Realy?! And bringing up Iran-Contra is relevant to the current discussion how?
And bringing up Iran-Contra is relevant to the current discussion how?
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I’d ask if you’re really that thick, but I already know the answer.
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And if you’re going to rip Joseph for supposedly drinking the Kool-Aid, it would be nice if, once in a while, you’d also concur with Jerry about how Jay Tea plays so loose with facts that they often have no basis in reality.
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“I have to disagree here. It wasn’t a “bungle.” It went down precisely as planned — the plan all along was for the guns to be bought by straw buyers and smuggled into Mexico, where the feds never had any plan or intention of tracing the guns.”
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Except, they were tracking them, they did recover 500 to 600 of them and they were obviously trying to track the others or, duh, we wouldn’t have some of the data we have on what was used where down in Mexico. This was a bungled op where they took a good idea that worked on a smaller scale and targets and made it too big to safely manage and contain or to keep everything from spiraling out of control.
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And, seriously… Your “I Hate Obama and Will Prove I’m a Partisan Mouth Breather” contribution to discussions here this week is that, because Obama was in the White House in 2009 when this went into action, the federal law enforcement officers who put the plan into action were deliberately trying to arm the Mexican drug cartels and get U.S. agents killed? Are you f’n serious?
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Hey, sparky, let me fill you in on something. Let me tell you the same thing that I told some of the Left here and elsewhere who made similar comments about the horrible law enforcement agents who were nothing more than Bush’s jack booted army or Bush’s incompetent morons whenever they needed an extra sentence or two to tack on to their anti-Bush rants.
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They didn’t care who was in the White House. They were doing their job and doing what they were instructed to do. They guys on the bottom rung of the ladder may have had misgivings about the scale of the op, but they went along with it because they likely were told by the people above their pay grade that the mechanisms were put into place to adequately deal with the quantity of product being used in the op. They were not gun running with the intent to just sell guns and walk away. it was, again, an operation based on previous successful operations. The powers that be simply screwed up and overreached. They made an operation that was too big and too unmanageable and they lost control of the situation.
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And, hard as this may be for you to do, try to use your brain and think beyond the anti-Obama talking points you embrace and your much beloved wingnut conspiracy theories about how Obama is working to undermine America and things like the 2nd Amendment for just long enough to have an original thought. The ATF put this into plat in the fall of 2009. It had been in the planning stages for some time longer than that. Obama came into office in January of 2009. Obama did not fire all the people in the top levels of the ATF and appoint his own people there. Most of these operatives were with the ATF all throughout the Bush years and some were appointed their higher positions in the ATF under W. Bush. Are you really so mouth breathingly stupid that think that the second Obama was sworn in they suddenly all became evil, liberal Obama sympathetic agents who were working to help Obama carry out his evil machinations and secret plots to destroy America, destroy 2nd Amendments rights and destroy our way of life as we know it as explained by the Right Wing fringe Obama conspiracy loons?
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Oh, wait… You’re Jay Tea… Of course you’re that stupid. And you help support that here.
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“This program was pretty much an act of war against Mexico, and we owe them for that.”
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O.o
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Yeah, you’re that stupid.
Realy?! (sic) And bringing up Iran-Contra is relevant to the current discussion how?
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It’s not. Then again, none of this discussion is relevant to my original post, which was a gøddámņ joke. But right wingers who have no sense of humor launched into the usual talking point diatribes, and a simple gag went right off the rails.
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Kim had the only proper response to this idiocy: Chill, dude.
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PAD
Craig,
“I’d ask if you’re really that thick, but I already know the answer.”
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Our humble host agrees your comment was not germane to the discussion.
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“And if you’re going to rip Joseph for supposedly drinking the Kool-Aid, it would be nice if, once in a while, you’d also concur with Jerry about how Jay Tea plays so loose with facts that they often have no basis in reality.”
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Please. I agree with Jerry a lot of the time and a many others he gives me something to think about. But you’re upset because I won’t bash Jay Tea. A.) Jerry is doing pretty well for himself in this exchange B.) You are more concerned with attacking people personally than debating them on the merits which is, if course your right – but really not my problem.
Our humble host agrees your comment was not germane to the discussion.
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Our humble host also said that your comments are just as irrelevant.
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So, could you stop being a complete asshat for, I dunno, even 5 minutes?
but really not my problem.
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Oh, and lest we all forget, this is your problem and your problem alone, as it’s your endless infatuation with me that is the constant issue here.
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Who really needs to put up with the spawn of an unholy union between a lost puppy and a common internet troll?
There is a part of me that wants to know how far removed the Saudi ambassador is in his blood relation to Bin Laden. Then there is the issue of the Government having no jurisdiction over illegal immigrants because they have no contract with them and the immigrants have no obligations to or benefits from the Government. And did all the Stassi retire that Iran needed to turn to Mexico rather than the former East Germany?
Well, apparently they got free chips and salsa as well. You can’t beat a deal like that.
What? They went to Taco Bell and got the Assassins Combo? What’s it come with other than chips and salsa?
“I’ll have the Assassins Combo – Chicken burrito, extra sour cream, Large Pepsi, chips, salsa and a U.N. delegate.
If I may take a left turn at “illegal immigration,” I find it to be a substantial joke. The first question I ask of others is “do you believe you have to right to live anywhere you want?” I have yet to receive a resounding “NO!” If we believe we have the right to live anywhere, why do we try to stop others from exercising that self same right? It comes down to control, and dare I say, racism. On one hand, we have people screaming for better pay so we can pay for the increase in the price of the products and the heavier taxes that we will pay while on the other hand we scream about the poor working conditions in other countries. Maybe I’m too detached to buy into government hype.
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I find it to be a substantial joke. The first question I ask of others is “do you believe you have to right to live anywhere you want?”
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No, we don’t.
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There you go.
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There are several beautiful state and city parks near me. Lots of shade trees, nice fishing locations, water fountains for water and public restroom facilities at the ready. I can’t just move my tent there and declare that it’s now my home.
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Not far from my house, there’s an enormous chunk of land with no buildings on it, lots of woods, lots of deer, rabbits, turkey and other animals to hunt, farm land on two sides growing corn and a major river running right up against it. The family that owns that land and has owned it for several generations has left it undeveloped. They’re (so I understand) holding on to it now at least until some planned developments get put up in a few years. They figure they can maximize profit by selling at that point to someone putting up another development. I think the land is sweet as hëll. I can’t just set up camp there and call it my home.
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There are at least a couple of countries that I wouldn’t mind moving to and have in the distant past thought about moving to as my new home. I could not way back then and can’t down just fly on over to one of these countries, buy a place and be a citizen or even a long term resident. As a matter of fact, other countries in the world, including several countries that we’re having issues wit insofar as their people coming here illegally, have stricter immigration rules than we do. And, bonus, you can find yourself in a hëll of a lot worse shape as an illegal in South America once their police get a hold of you than any illegal here who gets picked up by U.S. law enforcement.
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So, no, I don’t believe that you have the right to live anywhere you want to. Anyone who says that you do is either giving you an answer to a question they think you’re asking rather than the one you are asking (like, say, in a civil rights related line of thought) or is a simplistic moron.
I’m assuming an Iranian spymaster is just a really big fan of MACHETE.
But he’d have a hard time getting in contact with Mexican assassins if you don’t get them on the phone.
After all, MACHETE don’t text.
MAKE YOUR VOICE KNOWN TODAY OR (THIS WEEK) ON E-VERIFY
JOBS–the economy has everything to do with illegal immigration, and as more and more of these unfortunate people pour in from the borders or from across the world. The expenditure will keep rising for every US taxpayer, until Congress does something about it; it does no-way mean amnesty. We have the resources to stop this massive invasion, but neither party has relentlessly pursued it. President Obama had great intentions for a while, than fell off in the wrong direction. Only the TEA PARTY lawmakers in straw polls have openly spoke about the financial ramifications, while main GOP members remain silent, as do the Democrats. With 20 million citizens out of work, we as citizens and legal residents must insure that our borders are sealed and that internal enforcement is substantial. There are numerous laws moving through Congress, but the “Legal Workforce Act” has the power to slowly but surely drive the foreign workers out of the jobs, meant for our own people.
The Immigration Control and Reform Act (IRCA) mandates procedures for business owners to verify the employment eligibility of their workforce, but since the 1986 law it has loosely applied until our prior president George H.W. Bush implemented Pilot program called E-Verify in October 1991. The Congressional authorization for the E-Verify electronic employment eligibility confirmation for employees was to expire on November 1, 2008. Republican Senator Jeff Sessions introduced an amendment in 2009 that would have made E-Verify permanent and mandatory for all construction companies, although Senator Harry Reid did would not allow the bill to come up for a vote. Reid’s contention was, “We need to do comprehensive immigration reform. We cannot do it piecemeal,” In July 2010 a reporter In Las Vegas said, “When you go to the unemployment office there’s many U.S. citizens who are unemployed–construction workers and they don’t have jobs because right now, some of those construction companies find it easier to hire undocumented workers.”
If President Obama’s “Job Stimulus” had passed in the Senate yesterday, one of its sections was the “Construction” projects. So who are the jobs going to, without the guarantee that Contractors and sub-contractors are going to hire labor—Americans and Green Card Recipients? Without federal programs as the policing LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT” Secure Communities, the 287 (G) unethical employers can still bypass immigration laws and they will for more profit. This is the equivalent circumstances of any company, which includes Farmers and the agrarian industries who are cheating US workers of jobs. We can remove illegal alien criminals and so called law abiding illegal’s at the same time?
Rep. Lamar Smiths “LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT” (H.R. 2885) HELP THE WORKING AMERICANS AND STOP THESE TRAVESTIES OF OUR LAWS. E-Verify will be a very successful supplement to stopping the illegality of people with foreign status from taking jobs.
The website NumbersUSA is the only outspoken, pro-sovereignty group, which identifies the grading records on a chart that is open to anybodies scrutiny. Below you can see next to every personage in the presidential election, their relative grade and the informational pressing issue of E-Verify.
There are two things that the average American can do, is by adding pressure to mostly the adversity of certain politicians. These reluctant politicians must be bombarded with your calls and free faxes, compliments of NumbersUSA. Contact Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-OH); House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA); House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) ; House Chairman of Ways & Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI); & Members of the Ways & Means Committee. NEBRASKA, Rep. Berg, Rick (GOP) (202-225-2611) ; NEBRASKA, Rep. Smith, Adrian (GOP) (202-225-6435); LOUISIANA, Rep. Boustany, Charles (GOP) (202-225-2031); MICHIGAN, Rep. Camp, Dave (GOP) (202-225-3561) & (202-225-2031); KENTUCKY, Rep. Davis, Geoff (GOP) (202-225-3465); PENNSYLVANIA, Rep. Gerlach, Jim (GOP) (202-225-4315); KANSAS, Rep. Jenkins, Lynn (GOP)(202-225-6601); MINNESOTA, Rep. Paulsen, Erik (GOP)(202-225-2871); WASHINGTON, Rep. Reichert, Dave (GOP) (202-225-7761); WISCONSIN, Rep. Ryan, Paul (GOP) (202-225-3031) You can additionally contact your own local Senator or Representative or federal politician at 202-224-3121 and insist on E-Verify. Tell them that your voting will depend how you vote on E-Verify—NOW!
At this present time Rick Perry (D-) endorsed E-Verify, but having his reservations, he also called building a 1,200-mile fence the length of the border “idiocy” If we don’t “secure the Border” America is not only open to economic aliens, but dangerous foreigners who will come here- to kill us. Mitt Romney (C-) at the Conservative Political Action Conference that he supports an E-Verify system, along with Herman Cain (C-) who has qualified himself as a true TEA PARTY member. Michele Bachman (B-), Tea Party chairman believes employers should be required to check the legal status of people they hire with E-Verify. Rep. Newt Gingrich (D-) has not spoken explicitly about E-Verify; he has suggested that credit card companies should run a worker-verification program. Jon Huntsman (D-) said he would consider a requirement that employers use the e-Verify system to check the documentation of workers to ensure they’re legally employable. Rick Santorum (F), called Mr. Perry “soft on illegal immigration” during the debate, in Orlando, Fla., and framed the issue as a burden to taxpayers. Gary Johnson (F) has also stated, “Enact an application and tracking procedure for guest workers, such as an e-verify system.” Finally Ron Paul (F), who has never answered how he stands on the Illegal alien alerter E-Verify, as he is more interested as it stands on Privacy rights.
Attn: Not all of the thousands of TEA PARTY groups are of the same voice relating to the Presidential contenders. The ad being shown on TV is not the main definition of any particular candidate of any member yet? Not all TEA PARTY branches are supporting Governor of Texas Rick Perry. The TEA PARTY—is the American people—of every color, race and religious faith. Everybody qualifies to be a member, as long it entered the United States legally. THE TEA PARTY stands with Arizona, Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, South Carolina and other state policing laws, to save these individual states—ECONOMIC –illegal migrants and immigrants expenditures forced on them by unfunded mandates. The Tea Party will battle against any amnesties or any illegal immigration covert programs.
MAKE YOUR VOICE KNOWN TODAY OR (THIS WEEK) ON E-VERIFY JOBS
Teaparty pile of crap that they can shove where the sun don’t shine. I’ll be calling to speak against this pile of stupidity, thanks.
I wonder how many forums that has been cut & hit & run pasted to?
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I just ran bits of it through Google using quotes on each segment I ran.
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The Question – “I wonder how many forums that has been cut & hit & run pasted to?”
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The Answer – Quite a few and then some. Busy little beavers they’ve been.
I know I shouldn’t demonize them, and I bet a lot of them are very nice people when you get to know them, but dámņ it, the Tea Partiers surely can look sinister, don’t they?
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With all this talk of illegal aliens and E-verify, am I the only one having flashbacks to creepy groups like the Nightwatch from Babylon 5, and the Justice League of Earth in Geoff John’s Legion of Super-Heroes? Not to mention Marvel’s mutant hysteria and superhero registration?
While the Occupy Wall Street crowd, with their creepy chants and repeating everything the speakers say, remind me of Hydra.
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I always loved those guys. You could totally escape form 100 of them just by yelling out “Hali Hydra!” and they would all line up single file, wave their arms around like big sissies and chant back “Hail, HYDRA! Immortal HYDRA! We shall never be destroyed! Cut off a limb, and two more shall take its place! We serve none but the Master—as the world shall soon serve us! Hail HY–…hey, where did he go?”
You may be on to something. HYDRA is incompetent and helpless and had their heyday in the 1960s. Leftist protesters are incompetente and helpless and had their heyday in the 1960s.
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It explains a lot.
Given the last few years of newsfeeds, I doubt you would find more experienced assasins anywhere in the world other than Mexico. And with a flair too… ambushing a prison transfer convoy to kidnap an important prisoner and then hang her from a motorway bridge? You got murder AND theatrics for the same price.
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Regarding illegal inmigration from your south border… I might be biased but I kind of love the idea of spanish becoming the official language in places like Colorado, Sacramento, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Arizona. You know, if only for the sake of cosmological simetry. I love and admire you americans, I really do, but as long as it is not done violently, I wouldnt mind seeing you invaded and having trouble to understand your mostly spanish speaking grandsons. It’d do you good as a culture.
“I wouldn’t mind seeing you invaded”
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See,statements like that, and the supreme arrogance of “it’d do you good as a culture” are what gives the most radical xenophobes merit and set back rational discussion. You should be proud of yourself.
I kind of figured that he was being as serious about that as I was about ranting over quality American assassins being dissed.
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PAD
I can picture Glenn Beck and his ilk having nightmares about brown skinned people speaking Spanish and watching soccer becoming the majority in the US.
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And I love it.
As PAD pointed out, I am not beign serious. I mean, I really wouldnt mind a change in the human landscape of the U.S.A. (why should I, as long as its not violent?) but then, I wouldnt mind it remaining as it is either. I dont subscribe to Atzlan-ite ideology, mind you.
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I do think it’d do you good, as a culture, but thats just an oppinion. “Anglo” (british and american) culture lacks a real understanding of defeat, other than from the military angle. You’ve had the talent and luck of beign spared from real national defeat (in the case of the brits its actually a permanent and dedicated self-dellusion regarding anything that contradicts national mythology…never invaded my *ss). Maybe that is why, consistently, the best and more accurate visions of the world events in american media are written by military men. And often the most self-critical.
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But really, this is beign written by someone who actually enjoys american culture a lot, and has come to admire many traits of its culture. It’s not criticism, it’s just comentary. And also a bit of an eye poke. If it fuels the flames of the extremists on your side… well, I remember you and others here telling me that was irrelevant to whatever those extremists would do once inflamed, that the blame is to be put in the culture that breeds those extremists. Do we still agree on that? 🙂
I think Mexico might better benefit from an invasion of Americans. Just my opinion. You may be on to something–the Mexicans I know are decent hardworking people but seem far to accepting of a culture that holds them down in their home country. Maybe it’s an acceptance of defeat that Americans don’t have that allows the corrupt few to hold down so many in Mexico. Small wonder so many smart ones have fled.
Nothing worst than aceptance of defeat. Not at all what I was talking about.
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Experiencing defeat doesnt mean you have to accept it, but at least brings the oportunity of understanding it. This can have diferent results but in the end it usually permeates a nations culture with a certain, hopefully healthy dose of self criticism. And from that, improvement.
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The whole “radiant city on a hill” crap has a lot to do with how shortsighted is american media, left and right, when it comes to analyzing the world and itself.
I don’t quite see it, Hombre Malo. The 1970s was all about America self-criticizing and experiencing defeat and disappointment in multiple levels (Vietnam, Watergate, the death of the dream of the 1960s, economic crisis, etc.).
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Actually I see more of this attitude (never apologize, never self-criticize) in the “proud warrior” countries like Russia, China, Iran, North Korea…
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I agree with you that Conservatives in America share this attitude somewhat, and I find it ironic that they have far more in common with their “enemies” than they admit, but not America as a whole.
I’ve yet to see any country that is actually good at analyzing itself or the world.
Russian literature is a huge exercise in self criticism, and having watched RTv (kind of a russian CNN) english and spanish speaking broadcasts, I see their international coverage more complete and balanced than that of the…well, CNN. Of course, there is a bias, but they actually aknowledge that bias, there is no exceptionalism.
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Vietnam was a military defeat but one that didnt affect the bulk of the population. Not in the real way war and defeat afects a country. And still it was seen more like a battle in a bigger conflict that the americans, in the long run, won. The military was the one stament really shaken by it and thats why I said they usually sound saner, more grounded than pundits and comentators.
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Micha: no country is good at it. But some are better than others. Every culture taints its views of the world with exceptionalism but some more than others.
Who are better? I’d like to see these nations that possess a wisdom that seems to lacking in the world today.
Want an example Micha? The irish. Try reading irish media sometimes and youd find an account of world events subtly different to that of the brits. Not because they are better human beigns, but because they have a cultural understanding of “the other side”. The losing side.
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And this is not a structural part of their culture, is a shifting one based on the past and the present. Just like with many people, not having much problems in your life might make you impatient or arrogant regarding other people’s problems. There are cultures that become spoiled brats, that feel entitled to everything. In Spain there were many that considered us to be “El Faro de Occidente”, sort of the moral compass for all nations to be judged, the spiritual reserve of whats good and pure. The dialectics between this stance and modernity precisely started when we were defeated in the Cuban war by the USA.
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As with people, its not bad to feel there is a bigger dog than you, form time to time. It makes you nicer to other people.
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Recently Ive been reading a lot of Orwell with different eyes. As good as he meant, reading about his oppinions on the Empire, the english character or other religions you can chew his complacency, his deep belief in a dramatic difference between his culture and the rest. He is poignant but he sometimes misses the point precisely because the shortsigtness that comes with excptionalism.
Vietnam was a military defeat but one that didn’t affect the bulk of the population. Not in the real way war and defeat afects a country.
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Ok, how about the Civil War? Half the country in tatters. If losing a war–Bigtime–builds character, the South has it in spades.
The only Russian literature I am familiar with is from the Czarist period. Dostoyevsky is a genius of self-criticism, but that was more than 100 years ago.
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Pardon me if I don’t see a lot of self-criticism in Russia today. Putin is apparently a glorious demigod that is always bashing the West. Every time I see or read anything of Russians in the media, they’re awfully proud of themselves and disdaining of any Western influences.
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Russian security forces kill 129 innocemt hostages in the 2002 Nord-Ost siege and the result is Russia actually tightening its grasp on Chechnya and enacting more censorship and banning of any criticism of the authorities.
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I just imagine what would happen if an American president’s actions caused the deaths of 129 innocent American hostages. He would have been fried, both worldwide and domestically.
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Americans ARE self-centered. But it doesn’t follow that they’re above self-criticism. Sometimes they positively wallow in it, in a paternalistic, condescending way. When it’s not the American Right believing everything good flows from America, it’s the American Left believing everything evil flows from America.
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I don’t see much of that in non-Western nations. China has their glorious, perfect Revolution, for instance. Actually, every non-Western socialist nation has something even “better” than America’s exceptionalism: the Historical Inevitability of Revolution. By definition, they can’t be wrong, History is on their side. Just ask Hugo Chaves. Ever heard Hugo Chaves admit to anything wrong? He is a Saint of the Bolivarian Revolution.
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I do see a lot more self-criticism in America than in many of the alternatives.
Sorry for another long post before you even have a chance to respond to mine, but the more I think about it, the more I disagree.
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In America, a movie denouncing racism in American society wins an Oscar in 2005. Is that not self-criticism? Where is the Russian equivalente movie? The Chinese equivalent movie?
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You take a look at some of America’s most beloved movies: The Godfather (America as haven of gangsters), Apocalypse Now (America’s wars are evil), the above-mentioned Crash, even Avatar (America’s greedy and ecologically destructive).
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There is a whole industry of America criticizing itself.
Don’t have much time to write since I am back at work, but when I speak of cultural traits I dont mean “what goverments do”. ¿Do you believe Ajmanidewhatever is example enough to comment on persian culture based on him?
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Self criticism can’t be anything but self complacent if it only focus on how the victor sees himself, if it fails to try seeing things from the enemy’s point of view.
People (or nations) who automatically sympathize with the other or weaker side are the same idiots who always sympathize with their side, or the side that is like them.
+ Since the Irish have a self-perception of themselves as the historically weak side, if they sympathize with the other or weaker party it’s only one way to stroke their own egos, just like everybody else.
All countries project on reality their own cultural luggage. And it always results in distortion. I’m certainly not going to prefer the judgement of the Irish or the Russian to that of anyone else.
If you want to know how people see a world issue, ask who they see as themselves and how they see themselves.
Micha: I never denied bias, my whole thesis has been that since cultural bias is inevitable, a broad range of experiences is beneficial. And defeat is an important cultural luggage. It can be negative (see the Serbians, for instance) but a healthy amount of defeats in your history make you feel less invulnerable and your bias would include considering how does it feel to be abused.
Hombre, most human beings are self-centered, complacent, and short-sighted. Americans aren’t exceptional in that. I am also less sure that the knowledge of defeat will make one more empathetic or wise. I’ve known too many Brazilians that blame everything on the US or other imperialist “rich countries”. I don’t think that is very enlightened, it’s just the mirror image of American arrogance.
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The press of most nations is in service to the interests of that nation. Don’t be naive. The Russians sympathetic view of Palestinians has far less to do with their knowledge of defeat and abuse, and far more to do with their being on opposite sides of the Americans in their game of geopolitical chess. The Palestinians are their horse in the race, just as Israel is America’s horse.
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(And one could say knowledge of abuse is what drives the Israelis, right? Never again?)
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I’ve seen this attitude even in things like sports or crime news. You read Brazilian newspapers and you see how Brazil’s soccer team was robbed in every World Cup there was. You read European newspapers and the story is very different, Brazil was helped in every World Cup there was.
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The little British girl that disappeared suspiciously in Portugal? British news focus on how dangerous Portugal is. Portuguese news focus on how suspicious the girl’s British parents are.
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Everybody defends their own side. American. Russian. Whoever.
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There is also the geographical factor. The US is like countries like Russia, China, India, Brazil, Canada. When you live in a huge country, it becomes more or less like a world in itself, it’s far more tempting and easy to believe that the rest of the world doesn’t quite exist. I see a lot of this attitude here in Brazil, when the other country is thousands of miles away.
I frankly dont see it that way, Rene. You (and Micha) seem to make too much out my words as sort of criticism and it isn’t. It is just cultural commentary tangentially related to the inmigration topic. And a personal one to booth, that comes from a research I did on Pop-history and the portrayal of heroism in videogames. One main diference I found between american games and those developed in central european and russian studios is how American games universally ignore the concept of a well managed defeat. The idea of a good defeat as a success. That is a concept that, no doubt, most can intellectually grasp. But for it to produce an instinstive emotional response, it has to be culturally aprehended.
I agree with you that Americans would benefit from “cultural invasion,” and that being cosmopolitan is always a good thing. Your argument that Americans aren’t intimate with defeat is interesting too, though I’m not sure I agree with it. Like any other country, America has had periods of intense pessimism, even despair.
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The one thing I take exception with is the notion that, because Americans don’t know what it is to be abused, they’re more self-centered or short-sighted than other countries. I invocke a variant of Sturgeon’s Law. 90% of everything sucks. 90% of the people of every nation has simplistic, manichean views on foreign policy. For instance, Latin American pundists have a huge tendency to analyze the news exactly like the Americans do, except with the reverse signal. I. e. Gadaffi is good, because he opposes American Imperialism, etc.
Well, as we have pointed out, the idea that Americans have no appreciation of defeat requires one to ignore Vietnam, arguably Korea and most definitely the Civil War.
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I also suspect that once people come to this country any cultural benefits they get from a history of defeats will dwindle to nothing, especially as their kids are born and raised here. A second generation Mexican-American will probably know less about Santa Anna than I do. Though the only real lesson there would probably be “Never ever let a guy like Santa Anna ever lead an army. Or anything. Ever.”
Bill, I already mentioned Vietnam as one of the reasons military officials often come with more grounded analysis of the world around them. At least they used to. Regarding the civil war, the cultural construct place present day USA as the consecuence of that war result, making you the victor. Mainstream cultural manifestations usually lean to one side, conceding the stage to the losing side if only in a romanic, melancholical way that I kind of remember first appeared in a series of novels in late XIX Cent (but dont ask me to remember the exact name).
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While there is a distinct southern subculture within the mainstream american one, its still subsidiary to the general one in terms of how they see the rest of the world. Maybe a better example would be native americans. Is there any good contemporary manifestation of native american idiosincracy that speaks of how they see other people? (not only the rest of americans).
I don’t have a problem with the idea that the different historical experiences of different peoples shape their attitudes and consequently their pop-culture.
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I do have a problem with the notion that these different historical experiences, and specifically losing, somehow makes certain countries wiser or possessing of a better understanding of the world than others.
Wouldn’t that make the Germans the go-to people for cultural wisdom?
i’m gonna do it in spanish… todos somos producto de algun imigrante ilegal o legal, las fronteras no deberian dividir pensamientos 🙁
Why aren’t they using Iranian assassins?
Because they couldn’t find their áššëš with both hands and a flashlight.
Because they were possitive there was a big chance of them quitting the mission and setting a electronic hardware store once they got to the USA.
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Wrong stereotype. It’s DC. They would be quitting to become cab drivers.
It took me a minute to understand what DC meant there. I was thinking “Why does it matter who publish it? are iranian cab drivers a meme in DC comics?”
“Regarding illegal inmigration from your south border… I might be biased but I kind of love the idea of spanish becoming the official language in places like Colorado, Sacramento, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Arizona. You know, if only for the sake of cosmological simetry.”
So, the Spanish Empire will rise again.
Nah, I dont even talk about a change of borders but rather a dramatic change in the human landscape and culture of the good ol’ E.E.U.U.
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Of course, this is part tonge-in-cheek and part wishful thinking, because as Rene pointed out, it would be so much fun to see some people swallow that shift.
So, all of South and central America except Brazil will be primarily Spanish speakers. And so will the Western part of the US. And the American-English culture will be in Canada and the east coast. Sound good.
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Would the same thing work in Europe? Who will replace the people and cultures that currently exist in Europe, so there will be more diversity there too?
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Some years ago I would have said magrebi arabs, but the truth is Madrid is the second metropolitan area with a bigger Ecuatorian community. Huge numbers of peruvian, colombian, etc. And they are very present in other european cities that I have visited. So who knows. Still, this is not a race. As I said, I wouldnt even have a bias on this (not specially nationalistic myself, believe me) if not for recent years xenophobic outbursts and policies. As I said, now its just a matter of seeing some people eat a crow.
That’s cheating. Spain culturally changed the human landscape of South America and some of them are now coming back to you speaking the Spanish you taught them.
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It’s easier not being nationalistic when it doesn’t cost you anything.
Oh it does “cost” me. May I remind you that Spain has not one but Four official languages? And that speak whatever they speak, they come with different costumes, traditions and religions? (some worry about the spread of Islam, I worry about evangelical churches like the one downstairs my apartment).
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Sure, they might speak something similar to what I speak (many barely speak spanish tho, their vehicular language beign quechua or some other), but I have to acept it. The bad stuff and the good stuff. Or I choose to because I think in the long run is for the best. Because for as much as I enjoy beign a spaniard I dont think there is anything inherently superior in it.
And do you think the Catalans or the Basques would appreciate it if the human landscape of their region changed so there would be more Spaniards and less Basques or Catalans? Or conversely, how would Spaniards feel if the human landscape in the parts of Spain that are Spanish speaking would also change and stop being Spanish speaking?
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It’s one thing when there is mutual respect and a space for different cultures. It’s another when the idea is to change the ‘human landscape’ of one culture into another because it’s ‘good for them.’ It seems to me that the approach Spain today is pursuing is the first option, not the second, which frankly doesn’t cost you that much.
I am not talking about changing anything or anyone based on “whats good for them”. I am not an agent in that. I just said that if it happens (the cultural shift of certain areas of the USA) it might be a good thing.
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I live in a neighbourhood where roughly 50% of the people is of foreign origin, most of them first generation (not many 2nd gen here given that inmigration is less than 20 years old as a phenomenon here). There are good and bad consecuences of that situation, but the cultural shift, the change in habits, is richer than the alternative.
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If in 30 or 80 years there is a town where romanian (also a huge number of them here) becomes the vehicular language, who am I to say that things were better before?
“I am not talking about changing anything or anyone based on “whats good for them”. I am not an agent in that. I just said that if it happens (the cultural shift of certain areas of the USA) it might be a good thing.”
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Same difference.
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Might it be a good things if the Catalans and the basques were to become a small minority in their regions? It certainly would be much more convenient. But it wouldn’t be a good thing. The world would be poorer for it. And I wouldn’t want to see Spain become Romanian, anymore than I would want Romania to become Spain. What makes the world interesting is that there is Spain and there is Romania, and Catalonia and many other places. This has nothing to do with thinking that Spanish or Romanian is better than the other. It has to do with respecting both rather than respecting neither.
Darin says:
October 13, 2011 at 10:01 am
Yeah, sure. “Chill.” We should all just be “chill” that Phoenix, AZ is the kidnapping capitol of the US and that US citizen ranch owners are getting killed along our border by Mexican dregs.
I meant “chill” because you took a clever little bit of humor, completely failed to see the humor, and went off on a rant. Have a drink, kick back, and stop listening to talk radio and Fox “News.”
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Kim, he’s a troll. Not only is he a troll, he’s an incredibly stupid troll who admitted he was a troll and figured that no one would remember that he did so when he came back after a spell away.
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His stated technique? He says and then just repeats ignorant and outlandish talking points, ignores facts presented in discussions and simply keeps repeating his garbage. He’s setting you up for much the same from the look of his Phoenix remarks.
Yes, Kim. As anyone here knows, I am about to the right of Ann Coulter on a lot of things. But Darin isn’t here to debate. he is here to be a troll. Save your time and ignore him.
I’ve always wondered why we can’t be harder on illegal immigration yet at the same time make it easier to do leagally. Set up programs in Mexico that teach english and american law. If you devote the time, say two years, you get legal residence of some sort. If you continue to follow the rules for 2 more years you get perminent residence status. If you follow the program for seven years you can apply for citizenship.
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We’d have to work out the details on what is required for each step but I would think that many Mexicans and other south americans would be happy to attend free english classes, agree to work in the fields for minimum wage for a couple of years with health care, Work a couple of more in some sort of tech school.
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If they do everything we ask legally they get to live here as a citizen and we get a better educated, skilled member of society.
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Just a thought. Again, someone should be able to work out the details.
Because it would be a though cookie to sell; “We will spend federal budget on setting free educational centers in foreign countries”. Specially whith the huge educational debt american college graduates seem to be burdened with.
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All to create an inmigrant workforce that is more able to actually compete with american citizens instead of sticking to the low end jobs that americans wont do at the price companies pay.
I think you’re correct about that. Part of the reason the “I spent a fortune on my Greek mythology degree and can’t find a job” crowd is barking up a dead tree is that we are no longer competing with a world that is either devastated by war or saddled with soviet style communism. It was easy to be number 1 when so many others were living 100 years in the past. Competition is tougher now and it would be foolish to spend a lot of money needed here to make it even tougher.
“I’ve always wondered why we can’t be harder on illegal immigration yet at the same time make it easier to do leagally. ”
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I agree with your sentiment, but not the implementation. It should be simple. Register and go through a background check (which should take no more than a week or two), then you’re allowed entry, where you’re required to meet with and register with an emigration official. You’ll continue to report to the official until the time you earn your citizenship. If, during this time/process, you are convicted of a felony, then you’re deported and not allowed to return.
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Those who enter illegally, or reenter after being deported should be shot.
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So we basically lower the bar to entering to being super easy, and use severe sanctions on those who come in illegally. At this point, the only folks entering illegally will be criminals (beyond the criminality of entering illegaly itself) and should be treated as such.
Am I the only one here who remembers that Mexico is not in South America? And that believes that the important thing is that a terrorist hit was thwarted by the joint cooperation of México and the U.S.?
Well, I’ve only seen one or two people on the board seem confused about the fact that Mexico is in North America. Speaking for myself, I knew. As for the “important thing,” I firmly believe the important thing that some people here have lost sight of is that, again, it was just a joke.
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I guess I don’t understand why your reply was on a thread that focused solely on the discussion of making legal immigration as easier as possible, while still enforcing laws. What does that have to do with the location of mexico, or the terrorist hit itself?
“Well, I’ve only seen one or two people on the board seem confused about the fact that Mexico is in North America. Speaking for myself, I knew. As for the “important thing,” I firmly believe the important thing that some people here have lost sight of is that, again, it was just a joke”
True that. When I was younger, it used to be that only the conservatives were humorless. Now the liberals have joined them.
“I guess I don’t understand why your reply was on a thread that focused solely on the discussion of making legal immigration as easier as possible, while still enforcing laws. What does that have to do with the location of mexico, or the terrorist hit itself?”
People who can’t locate the usa neighboring country should not talk about any policies whatsoever. Elitism? Ðámņ sure. First grade geography is a must before talking politics.
I am well aware that Mexico is in North America. If I worded it poorly I apologize. I didn’t realize I would be graded on this post. I was trying to point out that it is more than just Mexicans who are involved in the immigration issues. Something that many people do forget.
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I still believe that a program that weeds out those who are serious about immigrating legally along with one that is harsher for those who choose the quick, illegal way should be doable. It just seems that we spend alot of money in a mostly fruitless effort currently and that a little expenditure up front would save money in the long run.
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Of course I could be wrong…I often am. It’s just an idea.
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As far as Peter’s original joke I did find it amusing. But since the discussion seemed to turn to immigration issues in general I thought I’d throw in my two cents.
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“I firmly believe the important thing that some people here have lost sight of is that, again, it was just a joke.”
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I don’t think anyone really lost sight of the fact that it was a joke. Hëll, I’ve been a big part of the drift, but one of my earliest posts was adding in with the joking. But the inherent danger of blogs and is drift and the inherent danger of even very good jokes based on social or political issues is that it sparks discussions on/around the subject.
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SNL has absolutely nailed political and social humor during various periods of its run. Everyone laughs on Saturday night. By Monday morning, some people are discussing the actual issues behind the jokes. It happens.