In case you hadn’t heard, Congressman Joe Wilson (R-South Carolina) did the President a tremendous service last night by mistaking the floor of the Senate for a town hall meeting and shouting “You lie!” during one point in his speech when Obama asserted that his health care plan would not cover illegal immigrants.
Supporters of Obama-care have been painting those in opposition as obstructionist, disruptive áššhølëš, and Wilson suddenly became the face of that. Everyone is used to the likes of Limbaugh assailing Obama on the radio, but a Congressman heckling a president on the Senate floor is simply unprecedented, at least in modern times (they probably gave John Adams a lot of crap if/when he swung by). Other Republicans are running from Wilson as fast as they possibly can for fear of being tarred with the same brush, but it may well be too late. When you’re basically saying that the opposition is acting like a bunch of jerks, and one of them then acts like a jerk under the most inappropriate circumstance possible, then your opposition has done you the service of lending support to your cause. It’s one thing to sit on your hands and refuse to applaud the President, but outright heckling…well, it may be SOP in England where face-to-face shouting matches with the Prime Minister are routine. But it doesn’t happen here. (Go watch Nancy Pelosi’s reaction during the video on CNN. To say “If looks could kill…” is a cliche, but that expression on her face is what the cliche was first coined for.)
It was a breach of protocol, to say nothing of common courtesy: The President is basically a guest there, and you don’t shout “You lie!” at your guest (again, unless you’re Limbaugh or one of his ilk.) Wilson may have done more in his two second outburst to help Obama’s case than Obama did in his hour-plus speech.
PAD
• 
As a friend of mine noted, given that Wilson is a senator from South Carolina, Obama should be thankful he didn’t beat him with his cane.
One point of correction: Joe Wilson is not a Senator, but Representative.
You don’t have to worry about swatting flies when they insist on heading straight into the zapper. It’s so beautiful . . .
Why do I get this sudden image of Daffy Duck scuttling about shouting “I’m a fiddler crab. Shoot me, SHOOT ME, it’s fiddler crab season”, followed by Elmer obligingly doing just that. 😎
Except, he’s not going to shoot (Assuming you mean Obama is Elmer and Joe Wilson is Daffy).
I like Obama I voted for Obama, I belive(ed) in what he stands/stood for, and and while I’m not exactly losing faith in him, I kinda, sort of am. He’s trying to hard too hard “compromise” with the republicans. And I belive in compromise. Compromise is good. I hate that it’s become a “dirty word” in US politics and I like that Obama is trying to trying to put compromise back on the table. But at the Same time WHY?? He was elected in a landslide. He had a what 72% approval rating at the start, and something like 75/80% of Americans want health “Care” reform. He doesn’t need to compromise. One stroke of the pen, “Medicare is extended to EVERYONE regardless of age”, and that’s the end of it. Instead it feels like he’s listening to all of Rush Limbaugh’s talking points and trying to make *him* happy. It makes me crazy.
So now Joe Wilson has apolagized. And we all know what’s what going to happen next. Obama’s going not only accept the apology, but invite Joe to the White House for a beer and as a sign of “Good Faith” let “good ole’ Joe write the health care reform bill himself.
Obama could take a page from my 3rd grade teacher. “What was that Joe Wilson?.. Did you have something to say? Would you care to get up and share that with the whole class? I’m a lair am I? Would you like to explain your point of view?”
Let’s not get carried away. Wilson was totally out of line. No doubt about it. It was gross, rude behavior, and he was right to apologize. (I sure the threats to his life and the lives of his children may have motivated him to do the right thing.)
However, Wilson does have a couple of saving graces here:
1) He was right. Obama was lying. (See http://opencrs.com/document/R40773/ and the recent rejection of Democrats on the House Ways & Means Committee of an amendment ensuring that illegal aliens would not qualify for health care benefits under America’s Affordable Health Care Choices Act, H.R. 3200.)
2) Democrats haven’t always been real respectful either. President Bush was the recipient of some rude behavior during his State of the Union address and even at Obama’s Inaugural. Pretty low class. But there wasn’t a huge upswell of support for Bush as a result. With his approval ratings tanking and the popularity of his agenda waning, I don’t think the Dems are really going to get a lot of mileage out of that one outburst. (But they’re welcome to try. At this point, they need something.) Besides, most conservatives I’ve seen online so far are rallying around his comment.
So, Wilson acted very poorly last night. But he wasn’t a game changer anymore than that speech was. Obama is still trying to sell his socialism to a divided Congress and a largely hostile electorate.
And I’m not against healthcare reform, least you think so. But the way to do it is to trash the 1000 page monster Obama’s pushing now, get all parties (yes, even those nasty, evil Republicans) to the table, and hash out a bipartisan reformation package.
The guy who was supposed to unite us all and return bipartisanship to Washington hasn’t met with the Republicans on this issue since April.
Actually, factchecking has shown that while illegal immigrants are required to buy insurance by the bill, they are explicitly ineligible for Federal subsidies in the event they can’t afford it. So it’s actually harsher on illegals, since it’s another law for them to be found in violation of.
It says right in the opening of the bill that it won’t cover people who are not US citizens. Don’t know how much more plainly it can be stated for you, Tim.
.
And if you, Tim Butler, are so against socialist programs, do not ever ask for Medicare money, Social Security money, help from the police department, fire department, the courts, nor the Armed Services, which are all healthy, thriving socialist programs.
1) Wilson was wrong. Flat out, 100% wrong.
There’s nothing in the bills to give coverage to illegal aliens.
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/
2) The rude behavior to Bush at the inaugural was innapropriate and I said so at the time. However, it wasn’t coming from elected members of our government. A Representative yelling at the President in the middle of his speech is worse.
“The guy who was supposed to unite us all and return bipartisanship to Washington hasn’t met with the Republicans on this issue since April.”
I know you won’t answer, they never do… but I’ll ask anyway.
Given the Republicans repeatedly stating that they will oppose anything Obama tries to do, given the fact that even when they get their way and get certain amendments to bills they STILL vote against them, WHY should Obama bother anymore?
If I told you that every time you came and knocked on my door, I would kick you in the crotch, how many times would you knock on my door? Especially once you realized you don’t need to knock on my door to go about your daily routine?
I’ll just point out that the Administration’s most common response to critics is “we won and you lost”… and that Rahm Emmanuel is better known for mailing fish to ideological opponents than happy notes of emotional support.
At no point is Joe Wilson appropriate in his actions but at the same I’m with him sentimentally.
Why should Obama bother? Because if 2010 rolls up and his policies aren’t spectacularly popular in hindsight he would do well to be able to spread the blame equally among both parties, that’s why.
A guest? Obama’s basically Wilson’s BOSS. Show up to work and call your boss a liar and see how fast you get fired.
It’s always nice to see elected representatives acting worse than five-year-olds. /sarcasm
Legally, Wilson doesn’t work for Obama but the people in his state, Obama can’t fire him. But it is the equivalent of insulting a CEO of a closely related division of your workplace, very bad policy.
No, he’s not his boss. Butthat’s no excuse for being a jerk.
.
I seem to recal Bush being heckled at one SOTU speech but it was more booing or laughing, not the kind of thing that one could pick out an individual insult. But again, that does not excuse it.
.
Judging from the reaction in the news, Wilson did just as PAD suggested–do Obama a great service. Now, it could backfire–if too much attention is placed on the specifics of Wilsons outburst it could cause problems for the legislation and from two opposing fronts. 1- Progressives might point out that it is not in keeping with our supposed moral need to care for our neighbors when we simply disallow for illegal aliens to get healthcare and 2- those who are already angry about the illegal alien situation may become aware that the bill does not have solid safeguards against giving them care.
.
(though since Obama does not in fact have a bill of his own he is technically accurate in saying that his bill does not allow for healthcare for illegals. The various bills in congress and the senate address the issue in different ways, mostly with the same “ignore the issue and talk out of both sides of our mouth” that characterizes our nation’s bizzare approaches to immigration.)
.
This will certainly help out Obama in the press but I don’t think he was really in trouble there.
No, I don’t think we can say that Wilson works for Obama. I agree that Wilson should have sit down and shut up, but that’s not controversial. The other republicans sitting around him wanted him to shut up too. He wasn’t helping their cause and they knew it.
Heck, the guy couldn’t get on the phone to the White House and apologize fast enough. It was obvious to everyone that he screwed up.
Holding a higher office doesn’t make Obama Wilson’s boss. They’re not even in the same branch of government.
Another victim of a poor Civics class.
Elected members of US legislature cannot see the President of the United States, the central office holder of the Executive Branch as his or her boss… and if he or she does then he or she should be removed from office and stripped of all honor and respect.
At law school, we’re all in hushed awe of the sheer audacity. Our society may be rough, but standard protocol still applies and shouting “Liar” at an invited guest is about as low as they can get. Wilson is a lawyer and in a court room, that kind of behavior gets you disbarred or put in contempt of court. It’s shameful to our profession.
This is degenerating into sheer sickness. There’s a video with some poor Israeli guy discussing the need for better health care coverage and being called a Nazi. Barney Franks, an openly gay Jewish man being called the same disgusting title. Presidents being verbally attacked on the Congress Floor. What happened to reasonable discussion?
When people like me were called liars for reading excerpts from the health bills out loud… reasonable discussion died.
When a black conservative being beaten by white unionists was framed on television as a black liberal being beaten by white conservatives… reasonable discussion died.
When President Bush named the Department of Justice Building after Robert F. Kennedy while simultaneously Kenendy clan members were ripping on the same President on television… reasonable discussion died.
When President Bush asked Ted Kennedy to write some bills for him while at the same time President Bush was being lambasted for not being bipartisan… reasonable discussion died.
When people someone nominates a Presidential candidate who blood libels a generation of American soldiers… reasonable discussion died.
When people in the legislature refer to one another as “honored colleagues” when Barney Frank allowed a brothel to be opened in his house, William Jefferson his stolen money in his freezer, Ted Kennedy wrote aid and comfort letters to the KGB, Chuck Rangel violated his tax obligations while writing the tax obligations, and those Republican douchebags with the homosexual public bathroom issues and homosexual sexual harassment of pages…. reasonable discussion is long over.
When people of either party or political persuasion talk about invading Iraq to get the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” as if that was ever one of the primary reasons to invade that stupid country… reasonable discussion stopped existing.
This is hardly the worst and it’s the least notable violation of human decency in those hallowed halls. Frankly I think the dishonesty of these people treating each other with dignity considering the acts committed…. we should be calling these guys “jerkasses” until they prove themselves innocent of the charge.
And whenever quackspeak talking points, ad hominum attacks, and questionable logic are used to support a position . . . reasonable discussion continues to thrive among those who debate in good faith.
What I find most noteworthy about this incident is that the Repubs have the sense to act embarrassed about Wilson’s behavior.
I agree, this is somewhat surprising.
Very surprising. Most of us aren’t even housebroken.
David, I believe Alyson meant Republican Congressman, not Republican voters. I know that I wouldn’t group all Republicans in with the politicians and I wouldn’t group all Democrats in with the politicians. There are too many things that apply to politicians in general that don’t apply to voters.
BTW, Wilson thanks you for promoting him to the upper house of Congress, Peter. 😉
Tim, please see http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/27/cnn-truth-squad-will-health-bill-pay-for-illegal-immigrants-an-update/ for some fact checking on the illegal question.
GO JOE; DON’T LET THE NAZZIES GET YOU DOWN !!!
I think you mean “Nazis.”
.
Maybe I wasn’t paying attention in history class, but I thought the Nazis were renowned for murdering Jews, homosexuals, and other minority groups in staggering numbers. I don’t seem to recall increasing access to health care being particularly high on their agenda.
.
That would be one hëll of an odd weapon, wouldn’t it? “We’ll show you — we’ll cover your preventive care visits and bring you to your knees!” It sounds a bit like the “comfy chair” employed by the Spanish Inquisition in the famed Monty Python sketch.
I think you mean “Nazis.”
.
You can tell the insanity has reached a boiling point when in one sentence, somebody will accuse Obama of being a Nazi, and then in the very next, accuse him of being a Communist.
You can tell the insanity has reached a boiling point when in one sentence, somebody will accuse Obama of being a Nazi, and then in the very next, accuse him of being a Communist.
.
Do you think they’re going too far? Because I don’t think they’re going far enough. They haven’t accused Obama of conspiring with the Viet Cong. I think they should. It would make as much sense as calling him a Nazi.
.
The sad part about all of this is that some conservatives have legitimate concerns about health care reform that deserve to be discussed. Unfortunately, the hounds of hysteria have been released and can’t be called back. If Obama is able to take control of the debate and steamroll over the Republicans (not a slam dunk by any means, but a possibility) they’ll have only themselves to blame.
grow up!! so he was out of line. It is NO different then Obama calling Americans liars, because we disagree with him. Or for Obama to call the media that he can not control liars because they report the truth, unlike the government media. Why don’t you all open your eyes, and detox. from the cool aid you drank in continueing to support Obama. He is doing everything he can to divide and destroy this country. You when you wake up someday and everything you have belongs to the government. If this continues the day will come when you have to ask permission to use the bathroom.
Dearest Mary Sue,
.
When did Obama call Americans liars?
.
When did Obama call the media liars?
.
What is this government media of which you speak?
.
Are you really a man?
.
If so, have you ever had sex?
.
May I go use the bathroom now?
Are you really a man?
.
If so, have you ever had sex?
.
Doing an impression of Eric Idle, are we?
“he day will come when you have to ask permission to use the bathroom.”
You can hold it in until we reach a gas station.
I’m just thrilled that the number of uninsured has apparently dropped from 47 million to only 30 million, just by doing nothing! At this rate the problem will be solved soon enough.
As Bozo the Clown said:
.
“Just keep laughing!”
.
until you are one of the uninsured and too ill to function.
My circumstances make it unlikely I will ever be uninsured. I work for the government. rest assured, government workers will be taken care of, no matter how badly said government screws things up for the rest of you. You don’t see many congressmen offering to sign up for any future public plan, do you?
But still…what the heck happened to those 17 million people??? Kind of hard to believe they all got jobs, not in this economy. Alien abduction? Or has just talking about health care made them suddenly wake up and realize they’d never signed up for available programs? Inquiring minds want to know, especially since getting off the list of the uninsured did not cost any money–now that’s my kind of government program!
It’s okay to seize upon one detail to avoid discussing the truth.
Has the number of uninsured people suddenly become just a detail? And apparently not a very important one at that? I mean, if there never were 47 million uninsured and that was just a number thrown out there to scare us into rushing through a plan, wouldn’t you want to know? Or, conversely, if the number is now lower because 17 million will continue to be uninsured under the plan wouldn’t you want to know? Or if the people in charge really don’t know how many there are wouldn’t you want to know?
.
Sorry for bringing up what is apparently a sensitive subject, kind of thought it pertinent to the discussion (it sure was a few short weeks ago when the 47 million number was flying around) but if you’re looking for someone who will protect and defend the administration–any administration–whether they are right or wrong, well, it ain’t me, babe. (I said a-No, no, no.)
The latest census figures showed the number of uninsured Americans to be more than 46 million in 2008. The actual number now is believed to be higher, because the numbers just released don’t include the impact of layoffs in the first half of 2009.
.
According to White House press secretary Robert Gibbs, the figure of 30 million that Obama cited last night excludes illegal immigrants. Why Obama didn’t make that more clear, I have no idea. I also don’t care. I’ll leave the game of “gotcha” to others. I’m more interested in the census figures, which are alarming and deserve to be discussed in an intelligent way.
Congressmen already have their own public plan, Bill. They don’t need to sign up for one.
Not playing “gotcha” here–I genuinely was curious how the number dropped.
.
And am I the only one who sees something amiss in a push for universal health care that simply ignores 17 million people in this country? As if they aren’t enough of an underclass already. Kind of weakens the moral aspect of all this, if you ask me.
.
Our immigration policy, if you can call it that, is a mess. “Don’t come!” (“But if you do we won’t try too hard to send you back!”) “You can’t get a job if you aren’t a citizen!” (“Well, you can and we won’t check very often to make sure that your employer has made sure you are legit. So don’t be surprised if all the safeguards given to other workers don’t apply to you. What are you gonna do–go to the cops to complain?”) “Stay in school, kids, even if you are here illegally!” (“But you know, if you got pregnant and had a kid here he or she is an American citizen! And might make it easier for you to become one! And we aren’t going to let you go to college anyway, so you might as well have that kid and drop out of high school and get that low paying job which will always be a low paying job because, well, see the above points.”) “Learn English!” (“But we’ll be happy to teach you just in Spanish, which would pretty much guarantee you’ll never be able to slip into the mainstream of American life…but we have the best of intentions!”)
.
Might as well add “And don’t get sick!” now. Makes as much sense as the rest of it, which, I am convinced, was pieced together by manatees.
Might as well add “And don’t get sick!” now.
.
Hëll, Bill, that is my health care plan. I have Asperger’s Syndrome, which for a variety of complicated reasons means I have enormous difficulty acquiring and keeping employment. When I do manage to keep a job long enough to qualify for its health plan, all of my health problems are by definition “pre-existing”, and thus not covered.
.
‘Course, this also means I’m not terribly enamored of the proposal in the President’s speech, as he proposes to replace the “public option” with one where the citizen is compensated for his health-care costs in the form of a tax credit – which probably sounds a wonderful idea, for those who actually make enough money to pay taxes…
And Michael–I’m just saying it would be a pretty good sign of confidence if congress agreed that any new public plan become the one under which they themselves would operate. Why not? Is there going to be something wrong with it? At the very least it would be smart politics. So why not do it?
Don’t be thrilled. 17 million of them just died due to lack of health care. ;)/:(
Ðámņ! Knew it was too good to be true!
Hi, Bill Mulligan,
In one of your posts, you asked why a “push for universal health care” would not cover everybody. The answer is that we’re not getting universal health care.
The bill Congress is working on will make it easier for uninsured Americans to purchase health insurance. It will also provide greater consumer protections to those already insured. If it passes, reform could help me and a lot of people I know.
However, some of the proposals floating around Congress would not cover everybody. For example, Senator Max Baucus proposed that every uninsured person should purchase health insurance or face a fine. However, he exempts those for whom premiums would exceed 10% of income — they could refuse to purchase insurance and not pay the fine. The Baucus proposal would cover many currently uninsured Americans, but not all of them.
I do not know what will go into the final bill. I do hope Americans get a public option. It would give individuals one more choice when choosing a health insurance organization.
Jen
Thank you Jennifer–very well put.
.
I think if the arguments for the bill–whichever bill it ends up being–were framed as logically as you put it there would be far less grounds for fear and dissent.
.
I think it was a mistake to try to do too much too soon–it risks having the same outcome as the Clinton plan (nothing gets done at all). Already you have some liberals claiming they will vote against any bill that does not have the public option (though I don’t believe them–how would they explain to their constituents that they voted against a bill that would have helped them because it wasn’t everything they wanted? You know you CAN pass another, better bill at a later time.)
.
The problem I see with seeming to promise universal care and clearly NOT delivering universal care is that it is clear to a lot of us that we aren’t being told the truth…which tends to make one wonder what else we are being mislead on. Just bad politics, if you ask me.
At this point, there is literally no argument that will convince me that Obama’s health care plan is the most perfect piece of legislation ever, and for one simple reason: its opponents are liars. If there was a valid argument to be made against it, they would have made it. But since they chose to lie about death panels and other nonsense, they’ve proven that there’s no possible valid arguments to be made.
If they do come up with a valid argument? Too little, too late. They’ve gone out of their way to prove themselves to be lying cowards, nothing they say is trustworthy.
I basically agree. I think there are valid arguments on both sides, but the ones getting all the attention on the “con” side are all lies. I even saw a Conservative reporter the other day lamenting how all this crap was making it hard for real conservatives. He actually wanted to discuss issues, but the crazies on his side made that impossible.
He actually wanted to discuss issues, but the crazies on his side made that impossible.
.
I’ve been saying this as well. All the garbage and lies has already pìššëd away the chance for positive change to our decrepit health care system. Now it’s far more likely nothing will be accomplished. All the while, the GOP seemed willing to stand back and let Obama’s message be completely obscured… and for what? Did they think they’d be able to step in and save the day? That they’d be able to put the leash back on the hounds they’ve let loose?
Honestly, Craig, I believe the thinking is no more involved in that they quite simply don’t want Obama to succeed. It’s not about helping the American people; it’s about preventing Obama from having a “win” on health care so that in a few years they can say, “See? He promised you health care reform and failed to deliver!”
.
PAD
Peter David says:
September 10, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Honestly, Craig, I believe the thinking is no more involved in that they quite simply don’t want Obama to succeed. It’s not about helping the American people; it’s about preventing Obama from having a “win” on health care so that in a few years they can say, “See? He promised you health care reform and failed to deliver!”
.
PAD
.
Wow PAD now you know what it was like for the last 8 years. This is exactly what was happening to W. It kind of sucks doesnt it?
This is exactly what was happening to W.
.
Well, The Great Uniter was anything but. He pounded his chest with his ‘political capital’ after ’04, and now the GOP is paying the price.
.
It kind of sucks doesnt it?
.
Yeah, because X wrongs make Y rights, right? The fact is, the GOP had no intention of working with Obama on this at all, and it’s pathetic that they claim they want to now.
It’s not about helping the American people; it’s about preventing Obama from having a “win” on health care so that in a few years they can say, “See? He promised you health care reform and failed to deliver!”
.
Of course there’s also the argument that preventing Obama from having a win helps the American people more than anything else. If you don’t believe the government should be mucking around with health care to begin with, then it really helps if you can defeat a program that would put the government into health care in a big way. Many liberals hope, and many conservatives fear, that the health care reform is the first step toward a single payer program (Medicare for everybody), so stopping that first step should be goal #1 for conservatives.
.
Of course, that assumes that the opposition is actually taking a principled stance, and that can’t be right because… um… because it can’t.
Of course there’s also the argument that preventing Obama from having a win helps the American people more than anything else.
.
If that was the argument that the Republicans in congress were making, I’d be fine with that. I’d be very, very happy to debate whether or not universal coverage is good for the country.
.
That’s not the argument they’re making.
.
Health care is one of those issues that because one side decided to be for it, the other side reflexively decided to be against it. That happens to some degree with both parties and it is definitely happening to a large degree with this issue. Rep. Boehner said that he was going to make health care “Obama’s Waterloo.” This isn’t aberration from elected Republicans, they’ve said many times that they’re fighting it just because Obama is for it.
Pat Nolan said:
.
“This is exactly what was happening to W. It kind of sucks doesnt it?”
.
Even if that was true — and that’s a big IF — then it really shows a mature attitude to say “It happened to my guy, so it should happen to your guy.”
.
But it’s okay, Pat, we welcome your irrational rhetoric.
Of course there’s also the argument that preventing Obama from having a win helps the American people more than anything else.
.
How exactly do the growing ranks of the uninsured, skyrocketing health insurance premiums, denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, and a host of other problems with the current system help Americans? I fail to see the benefit in any of that.
.
Of course, that assumes that the opposition is actually taking a principled stance, and that can’t be right because… um… because it can’t.
.
Certainly there is some intelligent and principled opposition to Obama’s health care reform efforts. Nevertheless, much of the opposition has exhibited intellectually dishonest demagoguery. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
.
It’s not pro-reformers giving the opposition a bad name. Large swaths of the opposition are doing that. Just as Obama is trying to reclaim the debate from the fringe elements, so should the more reasoned voices on the other side. I don’t remember Congressional Republicans responding en masse to the nonsense about “death panels.” Had they done so, perhaps their more legitimate criticisms of the various reform bills would be taken more seriously.
Alan Coil says:
September 10, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Pat Nolan said:
.
“This is exactly what was happening to W. It kind of sucks doesnt it?”
.
Even if that was true — and that’s a big IF — then it really shows a mature attitude to say “It happened to my guy, so it should happen to your guy.”
.
But it’s okay, Pat, we welcome your irrational rhetoric.
.
But, WE dont remember addressing you….
Mature attitude? right Alan your going to lecture me on mature attitude.
“Mature attitude? right Alan your going to lecture me on mature attitude.”
.
Only that once, Pat. I recognize a lost cause.
I fail to see the benefit in any of that.
.
Of course there’s no benefit, which is why the masses must be confused with rhetoric tying Obama to Nazis or Communist, or that he’s going to take all of our freedoms away (even if you can’t name a single instance of how Obama would do that).
.
It’s all smoke and mirrors.
How exactly do the growing ranks of the uninsured, skyrocketing health insurance premiums, denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, and a host of other problems with the current system help Americans? I fail to see the benefit in any of that.
.
Because its both morally wrong and inefficient to have the government running major industries, particularly ones that affect people’s lives so intimately. Medicare is a disaster. The reason that it’s so cheap is because there’s no negotiation– the government tells doctors what it will pay for particular procedures. Physicians are left with a choice of terminating their patients’ treatment when they turn 65, or accepting the Medicare price. Often, the Medicare price is rather less than it costs the physician to perform the treatment. One reason private pay costs are so high is that physicians have to overcharge them to make up for their losses on Medicare clients. So what happens when Medicare is the only game in town? Ask the Canadians or British, who have adequate primary care but crappy specialist treatment. That’s the future of a single payer system.
.
That’s the inefficiency. The moral argument is that I’m a libertarian. The government shouldn’t be subsidizing industries. The government shouldn’t be taxing some people to pay for other people’s health care. Health care is a commodity, just like food, clothing, and shelter. All of those are necessary for people to live. We don’t take over restaurants, grocery stores, or TJ Maxx to ensure that everyone gets a piece of the pie. We do pay out charity/welfare up to a point. I’d be okay with that. I’m not okay with taking over the insurance industry, or the “public option.” (Another efficiency argument: the one life sustaining commodity the government does tend to provide is public housing. Look how well that works.)
One reason private pay costs are so high is that physicians have to overcharge them to make up for their losses on Medicare clients.
.
Medicare is but one component of skyrocketing health care costs. You’re omitting other important causes. For example, when the uninsured flock to emergency rooms — which are far more expensive than visits to an internist, and unlike the internist will not turn people away for lack of funds — this drives up costs for the rest of us. Skyrocketing malpractice rates are another cause. So are the administrative costs hospitals and medical offices must bear as the result of having to deal with the arcane and mysterious ways of multiple insurance providers. Add to that our increasingly unhealthy habits, and a host of other problems I haven’t the time to mention, and you have a problem far more complex than you’re acknowledging.
.
Government isn’t the sole source of the problem. It won’t be the sole solution, either, but it can be a component. I realize that won’t satisfy rigid ideologues of any stripe — for most, it’s either government is *the* answer or it’s *never* the answer — but what can I tell you? I’m a pragmatist.
.
Health care is a commodity, just like food, clothing, and shelter.
.
Health care is nothing like a commodity. It’s a service, and a very complex one at that. No one *needs* a million-dollar mansion that they cannot afford, but sometimes an astronomically expensive medical procedure is the only thing that can save a particular life. The health industry doesn’t bend to classical capitalist theory; sometimes the sick simply need what they need.
.
Besides, if a public option will doom private health care, answer me this: how can UPS and FedEx *possibly* exist in the face of a public option?
Oh, you’re so right, David – I mean, obviously the government can’t be trusted to provide any important services. That’s why we’re served by private security forces rather than inefficient government police services, private fire-control companies rather than those corrupt public fire departments, and privately-funded libraries, not some monstrous “public library” fiasco.
.
And of course our country is so well defended by the likes of Blackwater, we have no need for our government to employ its own armed forces…
.
But, WE dont remember addressing you….
.
Yes, but WE didn’t consider the comment worth addressing since we felt it obviously fallacious. And WE do not remember any rules on any message boards that declare only the person to whom the message was addressed could answer, a concept you apparently embrace that’s as patently silly as your original comment, so…
.
PAD
Jonathan: Oh, you’re so right, David – I mean, obviously the government can’t be trusted to provide any important services.
.
Geez what was I thinking when I said that… oh, wait, I didn’t.
.
I didn’t say the government couldn’t be trusted to provide important services. I made the argument that government shouldn’t provide most services. The government provides law enforcement, fire protection, national defense, and does those rather well. However, when it injects itself into the marketplace, it’s not very good at it (q.v. Amtrak), and even if it were effective, I still say it shouldn’t be doing it. Not can’t, but shouldn’t. When a government “competes” in the marketplace, it uses tax dollars to compete with civilians. How is that fair?
.
Bill Myers: Health care is nothing like a commodity. It’s a service, and a very complex one at that. No one *needs* a million-dollar mansion that they cannot afford, but sometimes an astronomically expensive medical procedure is the only thing that can save a particular life. The health industry doesn’t bend to classical capitalist theory; sometimes the sick simply need what they need.
.
Agreed, that sometimes people need more than they can afford. That doesn’t make health care unusual, however. Many people have trouble providing themselves or their families with food, shelter, or clothing. The scale of the expense goes up with health care, but not the concept. If you’re starving, it doesn’t matter if food costs $1 or $10,000 if you don’t have the $1. We, as a society, provide for the less fortunate in food stamps, AFDC, Section 8 housing (public housing projects suck for a variety of reasons but Section 8 is more palatable), and a variety of private charities. I could get on board with vouchers to allow people to buy in to the system, I could even stomach the nonprofit co-ops that have been suggested as a compromise, assuming the co-ops were really run as nonprofit organizations rather than as Federally subsidized interlopers in the marketplace. What I can’t support is the government either nationalizing the industry, or creating a public option that “competes” while using the Treasury as its cash reserve.
.
Besides, if a public option will doom private health care, answer me this: how can UPS and FedEx *possibly* exist in the face of a public option?
.
That one’s easy. The Postal Service is required by law to break even. That makes it more like the public co-ops that Sen. Baucus is proposing that drove Speaker Pelosi up a wall than it is like the public option that House Democrats proposed. The Postmaster General bragged earlier this year that the USPS hadn’t taken a taxpayer subsidy since 1982. If you can come up with a public option that can go 27+ years between public handouts, I’ll be glad to reconsider my position. Besides, FedEx and UPS are niche specialists in packages and express delivery. When was the last time that you used either of them to deliver a regular letter?
When a government “competes” in the marketplace, it uses tax dollars to compete with civilians. How is that fair?
.
It’s no more unfair than small business owners who lose their businesses due to a catastrophic illness that strikes through no fault of their own. And it’s no more irrational than insisting on a “free market” system that puts our businesses at a disadvantage when competing against other developed nations that don’t place the burden of providing health care on employers.
.
Agreed, that sometimes people need more than they can afford. That doesn’t make health care unusual, however.
.
Yes, it does. Again, when it comes to food, clothing, and shelter, there are inexpensive alternatives that get the job done. Not always so with health care.
.
If you’re starving, it doesn’t matter if food costs $1 or $10,000 if you don’t have the $1.
.
Yes, it does. The difference between $1 and $10,000 is the number of people affected and the impact on our economy. When it comes to health care, by the way, that upper end figure can be hundreds of thousands of dollars. It makes a *huge* difference, David.
.
When was the last time that you used either of them to deliver a regular letter?
.
I rarely send hardcopy letters. These days I use e-mail. Which, as I recall, is a technological innovation that was driven in part by work done by the U.S. military — a government institution — but nevertheless gave rise to a very profitable private-sector industry. Things are never as simple as rigid ideology would have them be, David.
.
Government “interference” in the market can be destructive. Certainly the push to increase the number of homeowers in this country helped lead to the housing boom-then-bust that helped put our economy in the çráppër. On the other hand, the near-collapse of our financial system was also caused in large part by the deregulation of our banking system.
.
(As an aside, I’ll never forget Alan Greenspan’s deer-in-the-headlights look as he testified before Congress that he was shocked — SHOCKED — to learn that human nature includes a tendency to take irrational risks! Some people need to pull their heads out of their textbooks and try observing the world around them.)
.
As for your reticence to see a public option or single-payer plan, I’m perplexed. If socialized medicine is so bad, why are our medical costs higher than those of so many nations with socialized medicine? And why do we lag behind so many of those nations when it comes to objective measures of health?
It’s no more unfair than small business owners who lose their businesses due to a catastrophic illness that strikes through no fault of their own. And it’s no more irrational than insisting on a “free market” system that puts our businesses at a disadvantage when competing against other developed nations that don’t place the burden of providing health care on employers.
.
The burden is still going to be on employers. The money is going to come from somewhere. Or, given recent administrations’ tendencies to run deficits, maybe not. But assuming that the program will somehow be funded, you’re going to have to tax someone or something to pay for this new government service. It’s compulsory charity.
.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t think the government exists to make the world a shinier, happier place. Government exists to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic. Poverty, bad luck, and illness are not enemies. You cannot legislate the world into being a fairer place. And yes, I do think it is actually more unfair when the government sets prices and taxes one group of people to support another.
.
Frankly, if anything I think your arguments that health care is different cut against you. If there are inexpensive solutions to a lack of food, clothing, and shelter, great. That makes governmental charity cheap and easy in those circumstances. If health care is so godawful, why should you be taxed to pay for my horrendous medical bills, or vice versa? The hideously expensive problem looks like an obvious place to draw the line for not supporting other people.
.
I rarely send hardcopy letters. These days I use e-mail. Which, as I recall, is a technological innovation that was driven in part by work done by the U.S. military — a government institution — but nevertheless gave rise to a very profitable private-sector industry. Things are never as simple as rigid ideology would have them be, David.
.
How does that cut against anything I’ve been saying? National defense is a core governmental duty. If there’s a beneficial side effect from the Cold War, awesome. Put it alongside all the other advantages to come from the US/Soviet rivalry– the space race funded a hëll of a lot of research. For that matter, World War II also put paid to the Great Depression in the United States, which is more than can be said for President Roosevelt’s economic plans. However, I don’t recommend global warfare as a regular strategy for dealing with recession.
.
When governments try to fix things too much, the problems tend to be more in line with my rigid ideology. (War on Poverty, Great Society, various Communist governments’ Five Year Plans, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, French Revolution, etc.) I’ll admit to having an ideology, but I think it’s one informed by a study of history, and by a decade of working in the poorer end of the legal system. Human nature does encompass irrational risks– which is why a gambling industry exists– and it is absurd of freshwater economists to forget that. Keynesian economists also tend to forget aspects of human nature as well. There is a huge principal/agent problem in electoral politics. (Not as bad as the problem with dictatorships of the proletariat, which is why centrally planned communist governments are among the worst, but it’s still a problem.) There will always be an incentive for politicians to buy popularity by “solving problems” with tax dollars. That’s the real driving force behind health reform, and it’s why any non-market-based health care reform is likely to suck.
.
Even if the health care reform is motivated by the purest of intentions, governments tend to be susceptible to the Law of Unintended Consequences in a big way. Public housing is a key example. We want to give people somewhere to live. Great. The most efficient way to do that is to build public housing. So now you have large concentrations of poor, often desperate people, who have no ownership interest or feeling of permanency in the places they reside, and it’s a public utility of sorts so it’s very difficult to evict people. So now we’re shocked — SHOCKED– to find concentrated pockets of crime and squalor. Google “Cabrini-Green” if you don’t believe me.
.
Housing, by the way, is hugely expensive. (That’s one reason that there’s so little cheap housing in the absence of Section 8– there’s no profit margin in it, because the cost of building housing units requires you to charge too much in rent for “affordable housing” to really be affordable to the people who need it.) Think about what your biggest expense is. Unless you’re desperately ill, I’m betting it’s your house payment. So I don’t think that health care is necessarily so qualitatively different from life’s other necessities. The government can help, but disaster strikes when it tries to help too much.
Peter David says:
September 12, 2009 at 8:11 am
But, WE dont remember addressing you….
.
Yes, but WE didn’t consider the comment worth addressing since we felt it obviously fallacious. And WE do not remember any rules on any message boards that declare only the person to whom the message was addressed could answer, a concept you apparently embrace that’s as patently silly as your original comment, so…
.
PAD
.
WE Didnt say Mr. Coil coudnt comment but since his comments usually include simple ridicule and belittlement (or just plain ridicule and belittlement)instead of rational disagreement its really not a hard concept to embrace when dealing with him.
.
I do however stand by my comment. The Right is always supposed to turn the other check, take the high road. The outrage and horror the Left(politicians)display when someone other then themselves dares to stoop to their level is hilarious The hypocrisy however is ridiculous.
Joe Wilson was absolutely 100% wrong in is actions and he apologized.
Joe Wilson from South Carolina, is just another good old boy where in the morning these married men preach to you that there should be prayer in our schools and in the evening they are on their cell phones setting up a date with their other women on the side, hypocrisy has been bred in. I am not surprised that he felt compel to yell like he was at some Friday night game. He is a hater not a debater like most of his side of the isle.
I heard Wilson meant it as a joke. He just forgot to deliver the full line, which was
“You lie! THIS. IS. Ceti Alpha V!”
😉
i guess democrats never
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html
ever
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/02/obama-accused-clinton-telling-bald-faced-lies/
would do something like this.
Sure, the Democrats booed at a State of the Union. That’s not what we’re talking about. There wouldn’t be nearly as much of a fuss if all the Republicans had done is boo.
.
Your second link is to a time Obama accused Clinton of lying. So? Find me an example of Obama interrupting the President in the middle of a speech. You do that and then we’ll have something to discuss.
.
Word of warning, if you show me an example of a Democrat shouting out a lie in the middle of a President’s speech, I’ll call that Democrat an ášš, too. Wilson screwed up, anyone else who did the same thing would have been screwing up, too. Wilson himself has apologized for his outburst, so there’s no real point in trying to mitigate it, Matt.
I think the booing is just as bad and the yelling. If not worse because you not just attacking one point in a speech but the whole person. I know most people here hate bush more than Hittler but President is the president.
And lets be honestly this speech wasn’t so different than the 110+ speeches he has already given on health care to justify the join session of congress. I honestly feel the reason this was speech to congress rather than another press conference is because Obama didn’t want to take questions. Just go up give the speech hear everyone on the left talk about how it was the best speech EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVER! And boom health care bill. What Willson did by raising a voice against it is to take the focus off Health care again. And the more Congress talks about stuff like Censure which is a meaning less jester anyways with no teeth the more it doesn’t serve the whole point of the speech.
What Willson did by raising a voice against it is to take the focus off Health care again.
.
No argument there. He did something rude and insulting to take the focus off the important issue that actually needs to be settled.
Matt said:
.
“…which is a meaning less jester…”
.
Matt, you meant meaningless gesture. It helps your argument if you use proper English. It makes it easier to understand your meaningless point.
The “meaningless jester” is Wilson and anyone like him.
Especially Rush.
In their motley and bells, trying to make enough noise to drown out the voice of rationality, and wielding slapsticks against anyone who tries to engage in reasoned debate.
Does anyone know how the right-wing punditocracy has reacted to this flap? I’m curious to know how they’re spinning this.
Jonah Goldberg: Wilson’s outburst wasn’t helpful. It doesn’t help persuade people who aren’t already sympatico with Wilson’s point of view. Winning over moderates, independents, conservative Democrats et al is an important priority for Obama’s opponents. Moreover, as a simple matter of right and wrong, or civility, it was uncalled for. Decorum at such events is simply a matter of good manners. Wrong on the merits plus wrong on the politics equals a bad idea by my math.
.
Mark Hemingway- As for Representative Wilson’s outburst last night, let me just say upfront that it was inappropriate and I’m glad he apologized.
.
Kathryn Jean Lopez– Our site has been down. Had it been in working order I would have said that Joe Wilson should apologize, as I did on Twitter. Then we would have posted his apology…It was wrong and embarrassing and he seems to know that and did the right thing.
.
I’m sure there must be some out there that are spewing the same “talking truth to power” nonsense we’ve heard from others but there mostly seems to be much enthusiasm on the right for this Joe Wilson as there was for the last one who called a president a liar.
I was thinking of Limbaugh, Hannit, O’Reilly, Beck, etc. specifically.
Luigi Novi said:
.
“I was thinking of Limbaugh…”
.
And well you should, Luigi, as the Hate-meister is the de facto leader of the Republican Party.
Another thing wilson did is bite himself in the a$$. His opponent in the upcoming election is an Iraqi War vet who just raised $200,000 in 12 hours because of what wilson said.
And Wilson’s one of the guys that won by a very thin margin last time…looks like SC may be turning Democrat.
I’m not sure what you consider a “very thin margin” but Wilson won by a 7.5 point margin (by way of comparison, McCain took South Carolina by almost a 9 point margin).
As to SC “turning Democrat”, don’t be too quick with that judgment. The last Democrat to win SC in the Presidential race was Jimmy Carter in 1976 (and prior to that, 1960 when the state went for JFK). The state currently has a 4-2 GOP-majority Congressional delegation and that’s been the composition since 1995 (the last time the Dems held the majority was from 1987-93; it was an even split from 1993-95). As to the Senate, it’s been a GOP delegation since 2005 (after Hollings announced his decision to retire). Sen Graham was re-elected in 2008 by an even larger margin of victory (a 16 percentage point margin) than in his first election in 2002 (Graham also received more votes than Presidential candidate John McCain). Sen DeMint is up for re-election next year and, at this point, there’s really nothing to suggest he won’t be re-elected.
Hi, Jason,
.
For what it’s worth, the flood of donations are still going. Rob Miller has received nearly $700,000 from 19,004 people through ActBlue as of 11:37PM Pacific Time.
.
It’ll probably go past $700,000 tomorrow.
.
Jen
Jennifer,
.
Also, for what its worth, Mr. Wilson has also raised close to $1,000,000 since his
faux pas
Pat Nolan wrote:
“Also, for what its worth, Mr. Wilson has also raised close to $1,000,000 since his faux pas”
.
According to CNN, it’s only $200,000:
.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/11/wilson.fundraising/index.html
.
Just curious… where did you get the $1,000,000 figure from?
I don’t know about Pat but here’s something from the Washington Post: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/09/scs_wilson_rakes_in_750000_in.html
.
With a political arms race in full force, Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) has raised almost $750,000 in less than 48 hours since his shout of “You lie!” to President Obama during the Wednesday address to Congress, almost matching the Internet-fueled haul of his likely Democratic opponent…Republicans expect Wilson to also top more than $1 million by Monday because of the immense publicity he’s received in the last 48 hours.
.
Update: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Wilson_campaign_Fundraising_breaks_1_million_passes_Miller.html
.
The source said Wilson’s current tally is $1,005,021 from 18,859 donations amid a high-profile campaign on the Drudge Report and elsewhere telling conservatives that Wilson is “under attack” for his willingness to take on Obama.
.
Sounds like Miller is close behind. Apparently both men will benefit from this turning into a pìššìņg match between the right and left. Well, it’s an ill wind that blows no good.
And for what it’s worth… Joe Wilson is getting a flood of donations as well. As of 9/12 he passed the $1 million dollar mark (Rob Miller passed the $1 million dollar mark the day before). There is strong support for both sides (not just one as is usually reported).
I just saw Rick Sanchez on CNN and he did a study on the actual law – what it says -, Wilson’s mea culpa (and justification for why he did what he did), and an interview that the president gave a few months when with Conservative radio host Michael Smishcarnif (?) that answers the real question pertaining to would an illegal immigrant receive treatment if he/she went to an emergency room?
I won’t say what it said. See it for yourself and reach your own determination. Educate yourselves and let’s all continure to raise the bar on this discourse and not fall prey to the same kind of rudeness and emotion that this representative petulantly did.
Okay, once more with feeling – treatment practices in an ER have absolutely no bearing on insurance, citizenship, or anything else. The only reason treatment is generally limited to humans is because the staff have no expertise in multi-species medicine!
.
If you arrive at an ER, you will be treated. The order of treatment is based solely on the severity of your medical problem, with no bearing whatsoever on your ability to pay, your ability to speak English (or in fact your ability to speak at all), or your national origin. This has nothing to do with anyone’s insurance proposals; it’s the way hospitals have operated in the United States in recent history. (As an aside, this also accounts for some of the cost to insurance companies when their patients go to hospitals – the hospitals have to recover their costs somewhere, after all…)
.
No, the proposed law doesn’t say that illegal aliens are specifically excluded. It also doesn’t say that coverage is not extended to cattle, nor does it specify that persons of all religious faiths must be covered. Certain matters are taken as assumed, unless one has an axe to grind…
Precisely. Anybody with an ounce of sense who saw the Rick Sanchez piece SHOULD come to the exact same conclusion as you posted.
Sadly, people like Rep. Wilson are still clinging to (like Rick reported) to items that are NOT even in the bill.
It’s like talking to a child holding his/her breath until they turn blue.
Precisely. Anybody who saw the Sanchez piece should reach the same conclusion, just as you posted.
Hëll, he even went as far as to point out what would happened when someone called “a liar” to Margaret Thatcher in Parlament back in the day.
I saw that Rick Sanchez bit on CNN too. There is nothing that allows health care to illegal aliens. The guy’s a lone nut, pure and simple. It just shows how far gone this debate is from anything approaching rationality when you got some guy yelling out “YOU LIE!” randomly.
Here in Canada there’s a lot of smack-talking in Parliament, but you Can’t. Call. The. PM. A. Liar. There’s just a line don’t cross. Aside from being just really unimaginative and obtrusive, there are better things to shout at someone aside from, “Hey! You! You suck!”
Booing is NOT as bad as what Wilson did.
It’s as appropriate a reaction as cheering (mostly because it’s done at the same time).
If booing is bad, then so is cheering.
(Whether what Wilson did is worth anything more than embarassment, I leave that up to others).
PAD started this discussion by pointing out that the President is a guest when he addresses Congress. I would say that shouting down a guest with boo’s is definitely in the same neighborhood as accusing him of lying.
At the time, the media thought it was pretty bad, too, likening it to Parliment and saying that they’ve “never seen anything like it.”
Not that that excuses Wilson, but it may mean that the problem of rude jáçkáššëš may be more widespread on the Left.
“but it may mean that the problem of rude jáçkáššëš may be more widespread on the Left.”
.
Uhm, why?
Stay true to the cause, Tim.
Because whereas one Republican Senator yelled “You lie” at the President inappropriately, President Bush was booed en masse by most of the Democrats (if not all) in the chamber. Hence, at least in Congress, the apparent evidence is that the Dems are the party of rude jáçkáššëš.
I haven’t caught up on the whole thread yet. Has anyone mentioned that today we now know: a) Wilson was right, b) Obama was lying and c) the Senate moved to close the loophole that would have allowed illegal aliens to get free healthcare under Obama’s plan? Wilson may be a rude jerk, but he did his president and his country a great service by pointing out Obama’s falsehood.
Read all about it: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-close-loophole-health-reform/
(Oh, and may I hasten to add, the Senate acted on the report that I cited in my initial post on this thread. You’re welcome, everybody. 😉 )
And Republicans mindlessly cheering at the least bit of claptrap for Bush during his speeches doesn’t speak well of the GOP either. Let’s just agree that cheering and booing at an official speech like it were a football game is poor form.
. . .
And, no. Wilson was wrong (the bills in question did not provide nor intend to provide for coverage of illegal aliens), Obama didn’t lie (see previous parenthetical statement), and the Senate closed a loophole that *might* have allowed a clever person, who was not sufficiently diligently vetted, to receive subsidized healthcare. A simple proposed amendment or slipped note to a colleague would have had the same effect, but since the GOP wants to scuttle reform rather than actually achieve it, I can see why Wilson didn’t conceive of these much more reasonable approaches. The only great service Wilson’s outburst accomplished is to give pundits something new to yap about.
Because whereas one Republican Senator yelled “You lie” at the President inappropriately, President Bush was booed en masse by most of the Democrats (if not all) in the chamber. Hence, at least in Congress, the apparent evidence is that the Dems are the party of rude jáçkáššëš.
.
Uhm, perhaps you didn’t watch the Obama’s address? Republicans were booing and heckling Obama en masse at various points. By your own standards, the Republicans are *also* the “the party of rude jáçkáššëš.”
.
The tendency to ignore the excesses of your side while screaming about the very same excesses from the other side is something David Brooks aptly called the “narcissism of the partisan.” The “us versus them” mentality is a lazy crutch and a poor substitute for actual *thought*. Neither party has a lock on integrity, civility, morality, or any other virtue.
.
I haven’t caught up on the whole thread yet. Has anyone mentioned that today we now know: a) Wilson was right, b) Obama was lying and c) the Senate moved to close the loophole that would have allowed illegal aliens to get free healthcare under Obama’s plan?
.
False. HR 3200 explicitly states that illegal immigrants are not entitled to federal subsidies for insurance. The point of contention between Democrats and Republicans is over how to enforce this provision. Nothing in the bill “allows” illegal immigrants to receive anything.
Well, Congressman Wilson at least took the spotlight off of the parents who wanted to keep their kids home from school so that they wouldn’t be “indoctrinated” by hearing the president’s message about how they should stay in school. Maybe they should send a fruit basket, too!
Well, Congressman Wilson at least took the spotlight off of the parents who wanted to keep their kids home from school so that they wouldn’t be “indoctrinated” by hearing the president’s message about how they should stay in school.
.
Oh, is that what the problem was? Somehow I thought the kerfuffle was about the Department of Education suggesting that teachers ask their students to “Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.” Or the suggestions to talk about “What resonated with you from President Obama’s speech?… Is President Obama inspiring you to do anything?” I had the entire wrong set of indoctrinations in mind.
.
Newt Gingrich was really off base then. He actually praised the effort to get kids to stay in school. From CNN.com: Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said on “Fox News Sunday” that Obama’s speech was a good idea if the message is a positive one about completing school.
“It is good to have the president of the United States say to young people across America, ‘Stay in school, study, and do your homework,’ ” Gingrich said.
.
I guess he should have talked to Limbaugh before going on TV. After all, Limbaugh is the party leader. I know that because Alan keeps saying so. I’ve yet to hear an elected Republican say that, but hey, why should we get to designate our own leadership when the opposing party can do it for us?
.
To be fair, I know that a couple of GOP politicians objected to the speech being given at all, and the Florida GOP chairman went off the deep end. (Seriously, why use Limbaugh as the bogeyman, when there are actual Republican leaders like him to make fun of?) However, I think the criticism that the whole incident smelled of a cult of personality is more representative of the conservative objection. And for what it’s worth, when President Bush I gave a speech from a school, the Democratic party actually held Congressional hearings about whether the event constituted a misuse of Federal funds. As with the booing of President Bush II vs Joe Wilson’s comment, the point isn’t that two wrongs make a right. It’s that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. (And on the Obama speech, the conservative reaction is only a wrong if you consider Pawlenty to be the conservative spokesman, but I’m not sure he’s actually authorized to speak for our people.)
Yes, David, Limbaugh is the leader of the Republican party. When the head of the RNC and a congressman both correctly criticize Limbaugh and then within a few days are on his show apologizing and kissing his vast rear end, that shows where the real power is in the Republican party.
I don’t think the RNC leads the Republican Party… and I’ll say the same for its chairman
If I wanted to see a general overview of what Obama’s reform calls for without commentary from pundits, where would you suggest I go?
Most newspapers (and their websites) carry the text of presidential speeches, without additional commentary. (That’s what they use the main story and the editorial page for.)
Luigi Novi says:
September 10, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I was thinking of Limbaugh, Hannit, O’Reilly, Beck, etc. specifically.
I believe it’s Hannity who heard the segment in which the President said “The insurance executives don’t do these things because they’re bad people, they do them because they’re profitable.” And turned to his audience and said “The President called insurance execs bad people!”
One has to wonder where these people learned what supposedly is their native tongue. It doesn’t speak highly of them.
The problem with/for Republicans is that they’re letting the lunatic fringe take the wheel. There are many areas in health care reform where there’s mutual ground, there are many areas that warrant genuine and significant debate. (Sorry, PAD, but I don’t think all Republicans are based solely on Obama failing), and there are many areas that are open to interpretation and could use greater clarification (such as how/if the proposed reforms would apply to illegal immegrants).
Unfortunately, such intelligent or rational discussion, debate, and disagreement is overshadowed by the right wingers who start shouting about socialism, death panels (and the day of Obabam’s speech, Palin had an editorial in the WALL STREET JOURNAL where she reiterated her charge of “Death Panels” coming fromt he bill), and removing American’s freedom of choice. Furthermore, as one political commentator pointed out, Democrats have made numerous concessions to Republicans about different parts of health care reform — and they have not gotten one Republican vote in return.
So Joe Wilson shouting “You lie!” is, sadly, par for the course when it comes to the level of discourse on health care reform. Sigh.
One point that was brought up in one of the cable shows was the fact that many African Americans are REALLY looking at the Republican Party and noticing how the first African American president to be told “You lie” on National TV was by a white man who has (allegedly) ties to an organization in support of Confederate Veterans.
Kinda makes that Green Czar resigning after being found associated with and signing a petition about the (so called) 9/11 conspiracy seem tame by comparison.
Hmmm…I would say that expressing the belief that the president either actively planned the murder of 3000 Americans or at least knew about the plan to murder 3000 American and let it happen so he could start a war to kill more Americans is just…a little…less tame than being a jerk who yells out “you lie!” to a president.
.
In fairness to Mr Van Jones, he now says he does not and did not believe what he signed. Maybe he was set up by the 9/11 “truthers”, it isn’t like lying about such things would be a big stretch. It’s ironic that the first blood the 9/11 conspiracy people have drawn came at the expense of the Obama administration but I guess if they are consistent they now have to consider Obama part of the great conspiracy. Every day that the “truth” does not come out is just another day of the cover-up…or do they think that Obama is just too dumb to know what happened?
Bill – with all due respect – you (not YOU) can believe whatever you want and even stand by them and defend your beliefs (or not) but when you call out the president on something that you (again not YOU) are factually wrong then you (one more time not YOU) have shown on National TV that you (Ditto) ultimately do not respect neither the office of the President of the United States… nor the (black) man.
And might I also add that Wilson (it has been reported) is a Col. in the National Guard which would make his actions disrespecting his commander in chief.
So on my scales of things – even if I were to measure his outburst by the standards the Republican party live by (or so they say) – it makes what Wilson did VERY, VERY wrong. In fact his comment about them (not all of them) but people like Rep. Wilson are indeed @$$holes.
Does anybody remember the near black listing that happened to the Dixie Chicks for the (mild in comparison) comment about President Bush?
Point is people can throw words like Nazi, Hitler, Death Panels all they want but at the end of the day Hilter ALONE didn’t kill all those millions of people in WW II, it was with the help of blindly loyal, factually challenged, rude and loud people that act like the representative of SC.
Point of clarification: I meant what Mr. Jones said about Republicans calling them the aforementioned body part.
But come on, Arcee, is there anything to suggest that the representative got so brash because Obama is half-black, or that he wouldn’t have said the same thing to a fully-white President?
Sorry. Truth is, if Wilson’s outburst had come from a black Representative it would be more of a shock.
I know that sounds cynical but…
That isn’t what MrBlake said.The question wasn’t “would a black congressperson have done that?’ it was “is there anything to suggest that the representative got so brash because Obama is half-black, or that he wouldn’t have said the same thing to a fully-white President?”.
.
As to your own statement, whackjobs like Cynthia McKinney prove that kooks and cranks come in all colors.
Bill – with all due respect – you (not YOU) can believe whatever you want and even stand by them and defend your beliefs (or not) but when you call out the president on something that you (again not YOU) are factually wrong then you (one more time not YOU) have shown on National TV that you (Ditto) ultimately do not respect neither the office of the President of the United States… nor the (black) man.
.
Bill Mulligan wasn’t factually wrong. During Wednesday’s speech the president put the number of uninsured at 30 million, which is 17 million less than the figure Obama cited months earlier. Bill Mulligan wanted to know why, which is a legitimate inquiry. It certainly doesn’t make him a racist.
.
You do realize that in this country, it is both acceptable and necessary to question our leaders, don’t you?
Again, I stand by my reply.
If what Rep. Wilson’s background(as reported) is TRUE it is not surprising – for me – for a person to act the way he did.
In fact, it was only a matter of time for this to happen and this type of disrespect would ONLY occur to the first black president. Take the same background and put a white guy in the oval office and he. would. have. not. done. it.
Bush, Clinton, at their worst would never had been dissed on TV like Obama was.
Even in sports. Check the ‘warm’ reception the first black crossover in baseball got: Jackie Robinson. Or when, years later, Hank Aaron beat the Babe’s HR record.
Bill split hairs all you want – more power to you – I will not dignify this anymore with a response.
Final point of clarification: When I meant dissed on TV, I meant, at a joint session of Congress, interrupted, and screamed “You lie.”
And whether Bill is a racist or not that’s his business and I didn’t imply he is or ever was.
To ..assume.. I thought he was without having knowledge of my personal life is as the saying goes “makes an….out of you and me.”
Bill, I did not take arcee’s post as in any way an accusation that I was racist–wouldn’t have taken him very seriously if he had!
.
However, Mr Myers is quite correct that any statement that Wilson’s outburst was motivated by racism is entirely an assumption which, as arcee himself (or herself) pointed out, makes an ášš of you and..er…umption.
For the last time::
As I’ve said before, if what was reported as Mr. Wilson’s background is TRUE (association with an organization of veteran’s of confederacy, a Col of the National Guard, fan of Strum Thurmond, Joe Scarborough saying Wilson is always lowkey, and other things) I contend that his action on that night over a HC reform provision that has since been clearly reported (as did Rick Sanchez on CNN) as being contrary to what this representative said it was about – not the 17 million or whatever – it is not surprising to me that a person like that would lose it and disrespect the first black president on National TV IN a joint session of Senate and the House.
It’s not a freedom of speech issue, it’s not denying the history of this great nation hasn’t been founded on questioning the government and its administrators.
It’s a question of location, tact and respect.
If it had happened to a Bush or a Clinton or a Reagan at a joint session on TV (hm! all WHITE guys, what a trend!) I STILL would have been just as shocked and apalled at the disrespect.
And I contend that if you take Wilson’s allegedly reported background – as is – and had he done it to a white president it would just be as shocking as if it had been a black representative with progressive / liberal views saying “you lie” to a black president.
Is Wilson a racist?
Only he and God know that. I don’t have any evidence of his racism. What has been reported to his character and as I’ve said ‘if its TRUE’ … just means to me that I’m not surprised when (and the following should be seen a metaphor) I see three walls of a house painted white to find the fourth wall pained white too.
arcee, I can readily agree with most of what you say there…which makes it still hard to accept that you would find Wilson’s douchbaggery worse than Van Jones apparent embrace of 9/11 conspiracy paranoia. Having a 9/11 truther in the government is like hiring a holocaust denier; no matte what else good can be said about them it’s clear they have a screw loose and can’t be trusted with people’s lives and/or sharp objects.
.
(Again with the caveat that van Jones claims to have been mislead by the people whose petition he signed. Though, if that’s the case he seems to have misplaced his anger, directing it against those who, in his words, “smeared” him by quoting…well, his words.)
Simple because Jones at the end of the day wasn’t in a job that he could influence or damage a person who didn’t believe in what he believed. He wasn’t in a legislative or political capacity making laws to hurt (for example: homosexuals, minorities) while secretly being one.
In fact, Jones’ situation sorta, kinda reminds me of the black listing and witch hunting of ‘communist’ back in McCarthy’s era.
OMG he was a Green Jobs Czar. Big whoop.
Believing or signing a petition about a (outlandish, far-fetched) conspiracy (I’d say LIE, due to lack of credible evidence,frankly) that former president Bush and officials were behind 9-11 is not and no where in the same league of a Holocaust denier, and its not like believing Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen.
It’s just plain stupid (forgive me for being so blunt, not implying YOU are) like being a member of a exclusive ‘members only’ club or lying on your resume. Then we add accepting a high profile job like in the White House, where your rise in the political ranks and your life and beliefs (or lack thereof) become fair game. Stupid. Hëll, I’ll compare Jones’ situation to a former pørņ star trying to be an elementary school teacher. No matter how repentant or contrite the person NOW is – Not. Gonna. Happen.
Wilson’s outburst is an extremists reaction. And these extremes are really killing us as a nation. We need checks and balances, we need to hear Republicans questioning the President on issues. WE NEED THIS or else we cannot function the way the founding fathers intended. We don’t need a representative – who has been proven factually wrong – derailing an argument over care for all qualified citizens heckling our nation’s leader for the whole world to see.
Just as we bemoan the fact that moderate Muslims are not in charge of their nations and governments, the moderate voices of the Republican party have allowed the extremists to take control and WE ALL suffer because of it.
In that context, again, Jones’ belief and departure – don’t mean a thang.
His actions in context are a meer annoyance to the Dem party, an embarrassment to him an his family for leaving a job in this economy and one of damping the prestige he enjoyed by working in the White House.
Wilson’s So if a person when they were young or in an earlier part of their li
Just to clarify: last sentence of my post is a mistake that I failed to erase before posting. Please disregard.
I would compare the 9/11 truthers to the holocaust deniers in that they are people who are oblivious to facts and who are willing to lie and slander to support their unsupportable “truths”.
.
Many holocaust deniers can’t do real harm either, other than harm to the truth and basic decency. Few in the western world would take them seriously; in fact, being one is pretty much an open deceleration of being a nut. Ditto the 9/11 truthers. (obviously the harm that the holocaust deniers can do in other parts of the world is far more severe–in the middle east holocaust denial is part of the whole blood libel against jews.)
.
I would be very nervous about having someone who believed that 9/11 was a government plot be in any kind of position of power in said government. If I thought that my school board was a secret society of assassins and I wanted to join the board…well, one might wonder why. It isn’t like van Jones was using his position to bring the evildoers of 9/11 to justice. So either he is telling the truth about never really being one of those people or he was just using their rhetoric for his own uses, without believing it.
.
Which brings us to a possible scenario–he doesn’t believe any of the 9/11 nuttery. he just joined up with them because they were opposing Bush. I think some holocaust deniers are the same; they don’t actually doubt tat the holocaust happened, they just hate Jews and this is an easy way to express that hatred, no matter who gets hurt in the process.
.
Unless van Jones was tricked by the truthers into signing the petition I would rate his participation as far far worse than Wilson being a jáçkášš. I would not at all compare it to the McCarthy witchhunts. he could have stayed on if he wanted to and if Obama wanted him to. It’s just that people would be bringing up the 9/11 stuff every time he spoke. Oh well. You can’t join the klan and not have people occasionally throw that back in your face and you can’t support paranoid fantasies and not expect people to call you out as a paranoid fantasist.
Bill, right now there are people who believe in alot of crazy things WORKING in the government.
Remember Aberdinnerjackets’ (sorry can’t and won’t even try to spell his name LOL!) comment that there were no homosexuals in his country?
The higher your position, the more important to national security your position (working in the CIA), the more you get vetted.
Being outted by a person, who might have had 3rd hand knowledge of a person going to a communist rally, in the 50’s, was akin to a death sentence. You don’t get that ‘death sentence’ feeling today.
However going to the origin of the incident, it was reported that Jones was outted by Glenn Beck in retaliation for an outfit (forgot the name) he (Jones) used to be a part of that was protesting Beck’s calling Obama a racist and having sponsors leave his show.
Beck has even named other officials and asked that his (Becks) people find dirt on them to stop their appointments into the government.
That’s the best way I can explain where I draw the comparison to McCarthism.
Actually Beck went after Van Jones first, THEN Jones’ former organization organized the boycott against Beck, THEN beck doubled down and started digging for more dirt and, evidently, found it.
.
Aberdinnerjackets’– classic!
Thanks for the correction.
Thanks for correcting me on the chronology of the events.
All u ŧwáŧš(Bushes) Mr. Wilson just joined ÐÍÇK “watch your ášš I got a gun” Chaney on the next NRA ballot. Anyone voting. Mr. Wilson looks like your fifth term is your last term. Come on S.C. don’t make this personal.
I see you’re determined to remind everyone that the liberal camp has its wing-nuts, too.
I honestly hope Wilson believes that Obama was lying. But my cynical side finds it much more likely that he was pandering to his base. Or worse, pandering to those with money who want health care off the table and/or want Dems/Obama to fail.
And to those who question the 47 million/30 million thing: how can it possibly matter, other than as a distraction? The point is, there’re a lot of people uninsured. I don’t think, and I don’t think you think but I’m explaining it anyway because you behave as if might think, that if reform goes through Mr. 30,000,001 is going to be told “Nope, sorry, you can’t enroll. Only 30 million people are allowed.”
I think we’ll get improvement after reform passes — more insured, no more preexisting condition discrimination, no more lifetime limits, no more rescission, and fewer sick people going bankrupt because their insurance didn’t cover all of their treatment.
.
I don’t know if the final bill will help everyone, but it should still help a lot of people.
Uh, no. Bill Myers already explained the discrepancy–apparently the 17 million who are no longer among the uninsured refers to illegal aliens. Seems like most people here are cool with that.
.
As to how that could possibly matter…I’m thinking it would matter a lot if you were one of those 17 million. Hëll of a big “distraction” if you ask me but out of sight out of mind.
Also, for some people it makes it seem better. “See? There’s 17 million that wouldn’t be helped anyway so I’m right and you’re wrong nanny nanny poo poo!”
Nowhere in any of Bill’s posts does he say that anybody said that the 17 million were illegals, only that the 30 million which were cited by Obama didn’t count any illegals.
“Those 17 million” are nobody in particular, when it comes to a speech being made which used one big number instead of another bigger number. But as an uninsured person, born in the continental US to two parents who are also US citizens and who were both well over 18 at the time of my birth, I will take it upon myself to be one of the 17 mil that the estimates in a speech didn’t mention. When I sign up for whatever passes I’m sure I’ll still be allowed.
(Apologies if I’m posting twice. The first one seems to have vanished; I’m resubmitting with different thoughts.)
Bill Myers did no such thing and you know it. He posted that spokespeople for Obama said none of the “more than 30 million” as mentioned in the speech were illegals. You and others are extrapolating that the other 17 million must be illegals.
Statistics (as you should know, and probably do; but are acting as though you are being willfully ignorant) apply to everyone in general and nobody in particular. When Obama said “more than 30 million” instead of “47 million” he did not cut anyone out of the system. It was a speech. He was not reading aloud from the proposed bill.
You also ignore the words after the statistic. the 47 million were “without” health insurance, the more than 30 million are “unable to get” insurance. Those are two different groups of people, one of which is a subset of the other.
Bill Myers did no such thing and you know it. He posted that spokespeople for Obama said none of the “more than 30 million” as mentioned in the speech were illegals. You and others are extrapolating that the other 17 million must be illegals.
.
Actually, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs left it open to interpretation. He said that the figure of roughly 30 million represents uninsured American citizens. When pressed about whether the remaining 17 million (give-or-take) uninsured represent illegal immigrants, he danced around the issue and simply reitereated Obama’s assertion that the reform plan won’t cover illegals.
.
I think Obama is trying to pander to both sides on this particular issue with a deliberate lack of specificity about the 17 million people who won’t be insured under his plan. Reading between the lines, though, I think it’s safe to infer that the bulk of them are illegal immigrants.
Ya see, this doesn’t surprise me.
All they do, and since I won’t be one of ‘those’ guys, I will define who ‘they’ are.
Simply put, it’s the far right pundits. Hannity. Limbaugh. And the biggest jáçkášš of them all Beck.
They spread discord. And they do it well. They spread fear. And they do it well. They spread lies, and they do it well. (I forgot to add Sarah Palin to the list).
They do it so well that perfectly normal people start believing it.
One of the most intelligent people I know (I maybe liberal, but I hang with conservatives) until very recently was a “birther.”
Because she bought it all.
They sell it well.
The issue with the Democrats is that they couldn’t sell ice to a dámņëd soul in hëll.
So, am I pìššëd about Wilson?
Yeah.
About as pìššëd as I am about Congresspeople and Senators tweeting during a Presidential speech (which is the equivalent of talking on the phone during a movie, except this is the freaking PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I don’t care about partisanship, show some respect people.)
But Wilson was a victim of his own party.
They sell the fear too well.
They wouldn’t be able to sell the fear so well if there weren’t a willing buyer’s market for it.
.
PAD
Talking on the phone in a theatre is bad because your conversation and the light of your phone in a darkened room distracts others from something they paid to see. Twittering on your phone is silent, and the room is well-lit, so there’s negligible distraction.
.
As for showing the President respect… I dunno, I don’t really think I see anyone as so deserving of respect that I’m literally not allowed to do anything else but listen while he talks. But to each his own.
*As for showing the President respect… I dunno, I don’t really think I see anyone as so deserving of respect that I’m literally not allowed to do anything else but listen while he talks. But to each his own.*
Hey, do they have to go to the speech? really, I don’t know if it’s required or not. Instead of actually listening to the speech and make a thought out opinion, they want to get their 148 characters out there, because they’re with the “new” generation.
It’s silent yeah. It’s still showing disrespect. You’re going to hear the President speak. If you’d rather do something else, don’t show up.
Mr. Wilson’s outburst may have been rude and unfortunate, but it was the most honest thing said during the speech. Now, I can just imagine if that was a Democrat who shouted this during a Bush speech. Afterwards the Left (and you Mr. David) would be heralding him as a hero who dared stand up to the Tyrant Bush. Spare me the faux outrage Mr. David.
Right. And Karl Rove would have simply accepted an apology on Bush’s behalf and that would have been the end of it, rather than Rove immediately using it as a cudgel to beat down and tar all Democrats and liberals, labeling them as traitorous scum who want the terrorists to win.
[roll eyes]
Rep. Wilson did a stupid and boneheaded thing and even his fellow Republicans were aghast by it, especially since his accusation, besides being utterly wrongheaded, was utterly wrong. (See the links previously posted.)
I would like to believe that Rep. Wilson’s incorrect assertion came from ignorance. It’s not much better than knowing falsehood, but it’s something.
Dearest Alan Sue,
Your replies are such a joy to read… they are always so well thought out, cordial and friendly, so I’m sure you’ll appreciate this:
Maybe you were in a hypnotic Obama love trance while watching/listening to that speech, but to answer your questions:
“When did Obama call Americans liars?”
“When did Obama call the media liars?”
— OBAMA: “Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.”
“What is this government media of which you speak?”
— Oh, you know… check your TV channel favs: MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS and PBS (and I’m sure your radio is pre-tuned into NPR). All of these media outlets are equivalent to a government media at this point.
“Are you really a man?”
— Are you really a woman?
“If so, have you ever had sex?”
— Have you? But if not, and you’re having trouble in this department, you can always pay for it. Heck, maybe Obamacare will cover this in the future! Or how about a “Cash to Get Laid” program from the government!
“May I go use the bathroom now?”
— Sure, go ahead… you got your Depends on right now?
Like I said, I’m sure you’ll appreciate this post (pretend it’s a mirror)… after all, you should see a lot of yourself in this type of snide of response.
So you are confessing to really be Mary James?
Looking at the paragraph in context, a reasonable person can see that Obama called the bogus claims lies.
.
MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS and PBS are government media? Nope. You are making delusional claims.
.
I don’t need Depends, not with this plastic bag hanging on my hip.
When did Obama call Americans liars?”
“When did Obama call the media liars?”
– OBAMA: “Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.”
.
Is it fair to call someone a lier if you catch them in the lie? I think it is, but YMMV.
.
Theno
Travis wrote: “They sell the fear too well.”
I’d say Obama is the Car Salesman of Year in selling fear. An excerpt from his speech:
“Everyone in this room knows what will happen if we do nothing. Our deficit will grow. More families will go bankrupt. More businesses will close. More Americans will lose their coverage when they are sick and need it most. And more will die as a result.”
This is scaremongering plain and simple… luckily, not all of America is willing to buy President Clunker’s rhetoric of fear (they already got stuck with his previous lemon known as the Obama “Stimulus Bill”).
A) Not scaremongering. Arguably, simple truth. There’s been an accelleration of bankruptcies due to medical reason since 2001. And the rate of health care cost rises (not just costs) is the highest in the world.
B) A lot of economists, from varying sides of the political spectrum, has credited that “clunker” of a stimulus bill with preventing a second great depression. They may or may not be correct, but, like your first statement, your comment about the plan seems born more out of ideology than rational thought.
How ignominious for South Carolina. Vote better next time? As a former North Carolina girl, I hate it for you. Just glad Wilson isn’t from there.
I don’t remember as many complaints when Democrat lawmakers heckled Dubya in this way… and that was a situation in which multiple Democrats raised their voices and booed.
Even in the more raucous political chambers, as found in Britain for example, there are rules and one of them is that you don’t overtly call another politician a liar. At least not directly. It shuts down any hope for debate and just becomes a shoutfest.
.
Booing Bush made the democrats look small and petty. Why would anyone want to follow that example. better to do the other classic routine–sit on your hands for the whole speech until the president says something that is in even the tiniest way something you support and then respond with a roar of approval, make it seem like it’s the first sensible thing he’s said.
It occurs to me that, if Wilson had been smart, he should have–well, he should have just shut his pie hole but if he had to shout out “You lie!” it should have been for the line about how “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits, either now or in the future.”
.
tell me another one! Let’s put aside the obvious–there is not anyone who could be dumb enough to think that if giving healthcare to millions raised the deficit by only a dime…or 1 million dimes…Obama would not sign it and sign it with a smile. We’d be getting off cheap if it raised the deficit by only a billion (or 100,000,000 dimes).
.
Secondly, it’s no secret that the only way the CBO has stated that the bill would add at least 220 billion over ten years. How can anyone say that adding 220 billion is deficit neutral? By simply exempting a 245 billion dollar “doc fix” from congressional rules that require new programs to be paid for. as the AP factcheck states “In other words, it doesn’t have to be paid for because they decided it.”
.
personally, I think this is a mistake. People will not believe that this will not cost money, nor should they. If the cost is justifiable–justify it! denying that there is a cost makes people think that either A-you’re stupid or B-you think they are stupid. Neither of which wins many hearts and minds.
Yet it was okay for the Republicans to boo Clinton?
um, says who?
Actually, a billion is 10,000,000,000 dimes…
You are correct. I may have a future in government budgeting.
🙂
I actually think Wilson may have been very smart in this move. He let his constituents know how he felt, he revealed his passion on the topic, but by promptly apologizing for the outburst he was immediately exonerated by the President. (When was the last time a Democrat apologized for saying something out-of-line? Not one in recent memory.)
Van Jones apologized for his comments.
Yeah, long after the comments were ever made. He apologized when it became a big deal… not within 24 hours or the statements. Jack Murtha has never apologized to the marines he slandered. Pelosi never apologized for first equating the protesters at the town halls as nazis. Obama has never apologized to the cop he called stupid. The list goes on…
Were Van Jones’ comments an issue 24 hours after he said them? You’d have someone apologize for something years before someone claims to take offense at them?
And Obama had the cop over for a beer.
The Republican party seems totally lost, with no real vision other than angry, extremist reactions. They seem to be pandering only to a narrow segment of the population. I say this as someone who was raised Republican and considered myself one for years. Heck, after 50 years of being a Republican, my father has abandoned the party and started voting Democrat. When you lose 50-year members, you have a problem.
I am worried, in that I think we are better off as a country with two viable political parties, and I don’t think we have that at all.
The Republican Party IS lost. The party hasn’t been in touch with its conservative roots since Reagan… and even then, many of its members didn’t embrace those roots willingly.
I am worried, in that I think we are better off as a country with two viable political parties, and I don’t think we have that at all.
Yes we do: Democrats and Blue Dogs. 🙂
If the Republicans are “not viable,” who closed down Washington DC today?
I think the Republicans are doing very well. Bush put the giant to sleep. Obama woke it up. And I think it woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
I don’t think the republican party can just assume the people who marched today will just happily vote them back into office. After the wretched job they did in keeping down spending they can only hope that they will be seen as the lesser of two evils. right now many Democrats are making it easy for them by demonizing the Tea party types but I would not be shocked to see some of the blue dogs and yes, even Obama, do the kinds of things that could placate those who are enjoying their new found activism. And of course, if the next republican candidate runs as wretched a campaign as McCain did Obama will coast to victory in 2012. The economy will almost surely be better then than today and Obama will get credit for it. Afghanistan will either be better or we will have cut and run by the end of 2011 so that will be off the table. The most likely candidate is Mitt Romney and he couldn’t beat McCain so that should not fill you with great confidence.
.
Not saying it’s a slam dunk but right now Obama is better off than Clinton was at this point in time and Clinton came back handily. And I think Obama is a bit smarter and a LOT more disciplined than Clinton.
When I read this type of post I always wonder about its sincerity. I can understand a person being disillusioned with the Republican Party and leaving it on principle, but for that person to so easily jump ship to the Democratic Party and embrace their Left Wing political platforms makes little sense — as the Dems are so far from any sort of true conservative principles. The Democratic Party of today has moved so far to the Left and for a supposed conservative to make such a move makes little sense.
And really, can’t you say the same about the Democratic Party? That they are the ones with no vision other than angry, extremist reactions (don’t tell me you’ve forgotten their conduct during the Bush years!). And can’t you say that the Dems have been pandering to a narrow segment as well like the far Left?
“The Democratic Party of today has moved so far to the Left…”
.
That’s so funny! Have you ever tried stand up?
Their conduct during the Bush years? You mean when they rolled over and let him do whatever the hëll he wanted lest they be condemned as unpatriotic? You mean when they passed the Patriot Act without even bothering to read it? They gave Bush a ton of rope, and he hung himself with it, betraying the trust of the American people and frittering away what could have been a transformational moment in global relations. If anything, the Dems did too little, too late.
.
PAD
You mean when they rolled over and let him do whatever the hëll he wanted lest they be condemned as unpatriotic? You mean when they passed the Patriot Act without even bothering to read it?
.
Too many of the Democrats in congress have been playing the martyr on the Patriot Act. The truth is, they were willing participates. It’s their bill as much as Bush’s. My evidence for this statement–what exactly have they done now, (with 60 votes in the senate and a solid majority in the house and one of their own as president) to get rid of it? I’m sure they’ve had time to read it by now. It can be recinded as easily as it was enacted.
.
In fact….check out yesterday’s report from the AP (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_patriot_act)
.
Obama supports extending Patriot Act provisions
.
!
.
The Obama administration supports extending three key provisions of the Patriot Act that are due to expire at the end of the year, the Justice Department told Congress in a letter made public Tuesday.
.
It will be a bit harder for congressional Democrats to claim that doing this is something they had no choice in, something those nasty Republicans somehow forced them to do, what with their cruel words and hurtful glares. But I have faith that they will figure out a way to do it and probably find a willing audience of rubes that will buy it.
Actually Peter, in the UK any MP yelling out “you lie” at whoever’s speaking in Parliament would get rebuked by the Speaker of the House of Commons. And anyone who did that to the Head of State (in our case, the Queen) would probably be suspended from the House…
* Because accusing another MP of lying is unparliamentary language.
YOU LIE!
.
Seriously, I didn’t know there were limits on what one could say in those circumstances. Thanks for the info.
.
PAD
The BBC’s Mark Mardell has just written this piece explaining in a little more detail:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2009/09/unparliamentary_or_unamerican.html
The President wasn’t technically lying, but since the enforcement mechanism was specifically taken out of the bill to appease the Hispanic caucus, writing “illegal aliens can’t get coverage” is as valid as having a speed limit and then restricting the police from enforcing it. Luckily, it looks like Joe’s stupid outcry has forced the issue in front of the country and the Democrats are (smartly) rectifying the situation.
Which bill? Last I heard, there were two versions before committees in the House and one in the Senate, none of which were the original proposal from Obama.
.
At this point, it seems to me, making any kind of affirmative statement about what’s in “the bill” is getting a bit ahead of oneself…
…but since the enforcement mechanism was specifically taken out of the bill to appease the Hispanic caucus, writing “illegal aliens can’t get coverage” is as valid as having a speed limit and then restricting the police from enforcing it.
.
No, it’s not. The plan most likely to pass the House would provide tax subsidies to those who are unemployed or otherwise unable to obtain medical coverage from an employer, so that those individuals can purchase health insurance from an “insurance exchange.” The tax subsidies would be administered by the IRS, which already verifies our citizenship by requiring us to identify ourselves by our social security numbers. The enforcement measures now being considered would be redundant, and mostly for show.
Well they are, at it again;
1. Talking points that make no sense.
2. Wearing those LL Bean spandex waist shorts.
3. Racist overtones
4. MissSpelled “Werds” on their signs!
5. Drawing little “Hitler” mustashes on the face of
the President.
You know; MORONS![reference to “Blazing Saddles” here].
Anywho, here’s a website dedicated to these poor slobs;
at;
The TeaParty Chronicles
While I can appreciate the freedom of speech and the fact that Wilson exercised that, it was a bit out-of-line to shout out in the middle of President Obama’s speech. You’ve got to respect “the Office” and the position.
I think the whole Joe Wilson thing is being taken far too seriously. It was immature, in my opinion, but he said what he felt needed to be said. And the President handled it very professionally. End of story.