One would think that with a message thread of over five hundred entries, I would have responded to every aspect of a topic imaginable. (Not that responses really matter to the hit and runners who come in with their minds made up, don’t read the thread, hurl invective and boycotts and then split.) But in cruising around the blogosophere that currently portrays me as being so poisonous that a tarantula could bite me and die, there is apparently one aspect that I have yet to address.
It has been wondered in several places whether I concur with the concept that is popularly referred to as “Byrne Stealing.” Namely, John Byrne’s philosophy that reading through a book on the stands and then putting it back is basically theft. Was I, in letting Marvel know about a potential copyright violation, saying that Byrne was right?
Well…hypothetically, he is. In the hypothetical comic shop that he owns (let’s call it Byrne’s Book Store, or Byrne’s BS for short) he is absolutely correct. The books are his physical property. Absent any state or federal laws that prohibit browsing, he gets to decide what does and does not constitute abuse of his property. If you’re willingly dealing with Byrne’s BS, then you don’t get to just stand around in Byrne’s BS, inspecting and fondling comics and reading them while munching on a corn dog, with a big Byrne BS-eating grin on your face. And if he yells at you about it, you can certainly storm out and announce that you are never going to stick your head into Byrne’s BS again. But don’t kid a kidder: It was Byrne, and you knew what sort of BS you were going to be dealing with when you walked in.
However—and here’s the sticky part—Byrne doesn’t get to decide what’s best for other people’s property. Just his own.
Many is the time that I’ve walked into my local Borders and seen people relaxing on couches or in the café, reading books or magazines that they have yet to purchase. They treat the place like a library. They sit there and read books (not mine, of course, because, y’know, who stocks those?) and apparently feel under no obligation to buy them. And if John Byrne waltzed into that store and started accusing them of theft, then the store manager and clerks would have him thrown out.
Why? It’s their store. They get to decide. Again, absent state and federal laws, they set the terms of right and wrong. They have big old magnetic strip detectors set up at the front door to stop you from walking out without paying for a book, but if you sit there, read an entire issue of Final Crisis #7 (presumably without spilling coffee on it or doing a spit-take on it or in some way rendering it unsalable) and put it back, Borders has effectively decided that that’s permissible.
Which they can do.
Because it’s their property and they get to decide what to do with it and what constitutes fair use of it.
So in Borders, reading Final Crisis #7 and putting it back isn’t stealing, Byrne- or otherwise.
Because. It’s their. Property.
Now…here’s where it gets entertaining.
The people who are running around cursing my name and crying boycott and writing my wife threatening e-mails (because she had so much to do with S-D being shut down)—the very same people who would not hesitate to download the latest virus protection software to prevent someone from helping themselves to whatever is on their own computer—are perfectly sanguine with deciding what Marvel should and should not do with Marvel’s property. The images, the characters, the stories…those are all Marvel’s. Legally. Morally. In every way that human beings have to measure such things, it’s Marvel’s property. Granted, the comic book itself is the fan’s property once it has been purchased. Which entitles them to give the physical comic to as many friends as they want to loan it out to, or even resell it if they’re so inclined. It does not, however, give them the right to reproduce it and redistribute it—which is what putting it out onto the net basically is–because there are specific laws that say they can’t do that. For that matter, there are specific rules on Live Journal that say they can’t do that, and Live Journal gets to make their own determinations of how best to handle their own property.
Some people are claiming that Marvel and DC and other major publishers should embrace the concept of having anybody, anytime, do whatever the hëll they want with the publishers’ property because the fans have decided that it’s going to be beneficial to the publishers. The demise of Scans is—I’ve seen this term a lot—killing the golden goose. (Considering that sales have been in a steady decline for the duration of Scans’ existence, I have to observe that golden geese aren’t what they used to be. It seems less a golden goose than golden goose pate.) These fans have judged, on the publishers’ behalf, how the publishers’ property should be disseminated and distributed and marketed. And if the publishers don’t agree with it, then they are somehow uncool or evil or, at the very least, not current with the 21st Century.
Are you following that? These fans are deciding on behalf of the publishers the best way to handle the publishers’ property. It’s not enough that they believe they know the best way to handle their own property (locks on the front door, LoJacks on their cars, virus protection on their computers, etc.) They believe that they have the self-declared right to decide what is right and wrong for the publishers’ property. They believe that their vision of what constitutes theft should supersede that of whose property it truly is.
Just as John Byrne apparently believes that his vision should supersede the opinions of the book store owners whose property the books and magazines are.
So basically…every single fan who is excoriating me and condemning me and boycotting me for slights either real or imagined…
… is buying into Byrne’s BS.
Perhaps some fans should consider boycotting themselves.
PAD
• 
I used to work at B&N. We had no problem with people looking at the books to figure out if they wanted them or not. We only had a problem with people who had ten or so books they were “looking at”, cause you know, you can only read one book at one time, lol. We also used to laugh at people who’d ask if we had a photocopier so they could copy something out of the book. It’s not like we were in the business to sell the darn thing you need information from.
“For that matter, if it’s material over which I control the copyright and someone wants to post more than is typically allowed for fair use, all they need to do is come to me and say, “This is what I’d like to do.” And I’d be happy to work with them to make it happen.”
I was referring to the above paragraph. Sorry about that.
If that were true, then Live Journal wouldn’t have buried them.
You really don’t understand how LJ works. Truth is not high on their list of things considered important when they are making decisions about how to deal with complaints. They are famed for behaving in an arbitrary manner towards their users, and their decision to nuke the community should not be misinterpreted as one based on the merits of the situation.
I have been following s_d for years, and it got me to spend hundreds of dollars at my LCS (and out-of-town CSs too for that matter) I would not have known to spend otherwise. I also read and laughed at a lot of comic books that I would never have bought anyway, Civil War and House of M being two examples, many of which I subsequently read at Barnes & Nobles to sate my horrified curiosity at what Marvel was doing to beloved characters. I have also been buying up a great deal of vintage Ka-Zar, for the purpose of a long s_d post showcasing the early appearances of Mockingbird. I’m a little sad that it’s going to wind up appearing in some successor comm rather than the original, but oh well. I’m sorry that you showed up and paid attention to a troll. It’s really hard to permanently ban trolls from LJ communities! Maybe we indulged them more than we should have, but in some ways that’s the nature of the site. I’m also sad that you chose to take the step of officially alerting authorities to the matter, a step which many of your professional peers clearly found unnecessary.
May I suggest that you wander over to one of the archives of scans_daily backed up by a member, like the one here:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?emtwjynzzzw
(you will need lj archive, @ http://fawx.com/software/ljarchive/ to view it properly)
and spend some of the time you would otherwise spend arguing with people on the Internet perusing it? Perhaps you will find some of the YJ material you were curious about, and perhaps the experience will also give you a more rounded view of the community as a whole.
I suppose some people could have used s_d to follow comics they would otherwise have bought, but I strongly doubt it. If you actualy read through a year or so of archive, I think you will as well. Anyone who is that serious about thieving digitized comic scans will just use BitTorrent.
On a personal note, I experience serious confusion when an adult who claims to love comics tells me that it was morally wrong to download and read Miracleman and Flex Mentallo. How can anyone NOT want people to read these books? There is certainly no way I (and many others) can afford the prices on the secondary market. It’s too bad that the owners of the assorted rights can’t get their games straight, and when they do I’ll be in line to buy them up, but until then I seem to absolutely not feel bad about having read the material by hook or by crook.
*waves*
As a former Scans_Daily member, I want to spologize for any over-the-top emails etc PAD and his wife has been getting. While I haven’t personally sent such emails, I think it’s pretty tacky behavior.
Oh. Because the paragraph above the question was address to PAD, so I just kind of thought you were talking to me. I guess. I’m confused.
Well, the response stands no matter what.
PAD
PAD: It had no value.
Geoff: Just because it had no value to you does not mean that it had no value.
PAD: You’re only saying that because it had value to you.
Geoff: *facepalm*
Okay, man, you didn’t shut s_d down, but you want to be the cheerleader/lightning rod for those who did, I just don’t get it, I feel I’m overreacting because we just lost the single most intelligent comics analysis site I’ve ever seen. I’d like to explain the value of the place to you but I don’t think I can. I don’t think you see how concepts like “theft” and “property” don’t work as well when applied to electrons, and how your recent actions have not accomplished what you wanted them to, at all. I think somebody else said it best: Metallica.
In my opinion that is not the position a modern creator wants to be in. But I could be wrong.
“So basically your righteous indignation would be more impressive if it wasn’t so self-serving.”
I consider that a compliment from a master.
Maybe I’ll run into you at SDCC and we can talk about this much more calmly. I’m sorry if I was rude to you. I hope you are beginning to see that there is more going on here than you first perceived. If nothing else comes out of this mess, I hope you’ll re-examine your attitude towards copyright law and start to think about how things are on the internet. Not “how they should be” or “how you can profit” or “how you can lose theoretical profits” — about what it really means when a file can be copied an infinite number of times and sent anywhere on the globe for free.
Whether you really think a royalty structure can remain viable for long under those conditions.
What part you want to have in it.
Because, you’re right, a lot of entrenched interests could have shut s_d down. They were aware of it for years. But none of them did. It waited for you.
And you’re right. It’ll just set up someplace else. It already did. But now it’s lost its history (years of work from thousands of people), and now it doesn’t like you. What does that accomplish, sir? How does this get people to read your books or take an interest in your ideas? Is this going to triple your sales? What, on earth, was the point of all this? Everybody loses.
PAD,
In comment #80, you said, “Am I to believe that out of 8000 people…There wasn’t one dámņëd lawyer? No one? Not a one? Not a single lawyer who had enough familiarity with copyright law to go to the moderators and say, “You’re asking for trouble. One half of the book? No way. The first time a copyright holder complains, we’re toast.” In five years, NO ONE said that? NO ONE thought to act in a responsible way to protect this community that supposedly was beloved far and wide?”
The community mods were actively in the midst of revising the community rules to scale back the number of page scans allowed in a post, out of this very concern that posts were exceeding fair use standards. It’s too late for scans_daily now, but I’m sure it’ll reappear in some other format, and the moderators will undoubtedly be more careful about page count going forward.
In general though, to answer your question, I do think that most of the folks who posted at S_D honestly thought that they were abiding by fair use standards. The overwhelming majority of posts in that community consisted of just a few panels or at most, a couple of pages. The mods did try to police the community as best they could.
So far as current/future online fan reviews and discussions of comics are concerned, how do you define ‘fair use’? How many panels or pages could a fan/blogger post from a single comic as part of their discussion? Is there an established industry standard definition for fair use in regards to comics reviews, or is it just a common sense sort of anecdotal standard?
You know, the young lady who engaged in the heated DIAF comments has seen fit to post the entirety of the exchange somewhere on the web (I think I found it through links on comicmix). I don’t think she comes off terribly well but I’ll give her credit for putting them out there.
PAD, you were as calm as a church mouse and it evidently drove some of the harsher critics right off their rockers. Considering how quickly people who are comfortable with telling others to fûçk off and die in a fire try to make the other guy into some kind of misogynistic monster (because we all know that PAD just hates female characters…dámņ these folks are living in their own little world.) your patience was impressive.
One thing it absolutely drove home though–the scans from the X-Factor issue were 100% NOT “fair use” by any standard.
Anyone reading those scans and the comments would have no reason to buy the book. About half the pages were there and where a page was missing the poster described the action in detail!!!
If I posted 1 hour of the latest Friday the 13th and made sure it had all the good stuff, killings and all, ending included, and filled in the gaps with statements like “and now for 5 minutes the kids decide to split up” and “Now an old man tells them to stay away from the abandoned summer camp but they don’t listen. Ðûmbáššëš.” does anyone think that doesn’t take the concept of fair use, dip it in liquid nitrogen, and repeatedly smash it with a ball peen hammer? Would anyone feel like they had to run out and catch all the great walking around scenes I left out?
And to think I defended your ášš on the site from Kali.
Look, Mr. Fancypants, the fact of the matter is, no one in their right mind thought it was actually legal. It wasn’t. I’m sure people will argue that it was and trying to legitimize it.
But then mix tapes aren’t technically legal either, despite a person hearing a song on a mix-tape and deciding to hunt the artist down and buy their album. I got into Weezer, and several other bands and bought their CDs that way when a friend gave me a mix CD in high school. I could have, of course, downloaded the files, but I didn’t.
The fact of the matter is, as much as you want to deny that such a site is remotely beneficial to the comics industry or comics creators, I personally got into X Factor by seeing it on the site. I got into Blue Beetle the same way. I then proceeded to go out and buy X Factor and Blue Beetle. I would have never bothered to pick them up because I am not an author loyalist that goes from one work to another unless I’m dámņ sure it’s good and half the time, it takes repeated exposure to get me interested. If I’m not buying, I don’t get repeated exposure–which means I just tend not to buy. Usually my friends get me into a comic by letting me read a stack of issues to catch up and then I start picking up. S-D was the equiv of my friends who show me cool stuff–just on the internet, which, yeah, you can argue that’s publishing, or you can argue it’s just a nonphysical way of showing people something you paid for.
Do you really truly thing Marvel has dealt a blow against copyright infringement by nixing a site that limited the number of pages shown and the point of which was to encourage people to go out and start picking up a comic they like? Do you think that any of us don’t know of about ten different comics filesharing sites offhand that we could get it free from? We all know the sites. S_d was particularly great because of the large impetus and attitude to not USE said sites. Very few even CARE about the illegality and the “buy it!” attitude was more a result of not wanting to dìçk the creators over. I know of a multitude of ways I could easily get away with ripping stuff off on the legal end. I choose not to, because I want creators like you to get your well-earned and well-deserved money.
The faction of S-D believed in sharing to encourage buying. When Blue Beetle’s sales were dropping, many scans_daily members that were fans went out and ordered tpbs, bought up extra issues, and otherwise tried very hard to do their small part to bump up sales on a comic they were already buying. They encouraged other people to get into it and start buying, too, trying to incite interest in others.
Ultimately, it wasn’t enough–but it illustrated the key focus of the comm–buying comics. The internet comics mixtape. Like this Jack Kirby stuff? Go buy the omnibus. Like this Batman’s No Man’s Land retrospective? Pick up the trade paperback.
I think anyone arguing that it’s legal or that Marvel has no right to decree what is done with their material is full of hooey, but up comes the Border’s argument again–I think it’s more that people are arguing that Marvel might be wiser to take the Border’s tack than the Byrne’s comic shop one, and several creators other than yourself apparently agreed with such a thing or the site would’ve been reported yonks ago, given some of the names frequenting it.
As for correlating dropping sales with the existence of scans_Daily, what the hëll is up with that?
Considering that sales have been in a steady decline for the duration of Scans’ existence, I have to observe that golden geese aren’t what they used to be.
Economic recession, much? Everyone and their auntie Jemima is broke right now, and the first thing that takes a cut is the things that aren’t necessities–like comics. My pull list has been drastically shortened due to economic reasons. In fact, again, one of the only reasons I’ve recently picked up books was seeing them on s_d and going “…welp, looks like I need to figure out how to fork out a few extra bucks a week, because good god, I want that, so where can I cut down on expenses somewhere else…”
Outright wholesale file-sharing and the economy sucking is killing comics. Event fatigue is killing comics. Prima donna authors entrenched in their ways that get preferential treatment instead of allowing new blood in to invigorate the industry is killing comics, because to sustain that much-beloved gore-loving majority, the minorities are slowly being shaved off and gradually leaving the fandom, rather than both the majority and minority being catered to and preserved. (And that’s not in reference to you, man, that’s in reference to a lot of people).
THAT’S what’s killing comics. Not places that encourage people to BUY them.
These fans are deciding on behalf of the publishers the best way to handle the publishers’ property
Here’s the problem. They DON’T have a right to decide that, I agree. They DO, however, had a right to decide what to BUY. They are, as much as the comics companies and creators seem to hate it sometimes, the lifeblood of the industry. Their fannish fickle whims decide your fate as a comics creator, decide whether you’re in the financial flush or applying for food stamps, especially during a time when most people can’t fork out as much for comics and have to be judicial about it.
This isn’t a question of legality or moral ownership, because you’re right–those questions already have an answer: Marvel’s material, Marvel’s choice.
The question is whether that’s the economically-sound choice when people are too busy trying to make rent let alone buy the latest tpb. Whether it would be better for Marvel to arrange a system for so the less scrupulous comics readers can buy a digital version of new comics cheaply so they might forgo filesharing because 99 cents or something of the like is a SWEET deal. Whether Marvel themselves think it’d be better to provide more than six pages of a promo and closer to scans_daily’s ten, so that sites like scans_Daily can just post what Marvel themselves have released (and quite often, they already did–whenever promos are released by the big two, they tended to end up on the site for discussion).
The poster above made my point.
So far as current/future online fan reviews and discussions of comics are concerned, how do you define ‘fair use’? How many panels or pages could a fan/blogger post from a single comic as part of their discussion? Is there an established industry standard definition for fair use in regards to comics reviews, or is it just a common sense sort of anecdotal standard?
Deciding on a standard–and a GOOD one, that’s the ticket here. It is Marvel’s decision, certainly–but they’d best make the wisest one they can. Marvel legal would’ve been much better off USING a site like S_d, asking them to limit the number of scans (maybe to 8; that’s a good number for showing off a story) but maybe popping them extra promo stuff to push to its around 9000 members.
Instead they’ve disenfranchised 9000 people, many of which were already annoyed at some of the choices Marvel has made and close to dropping some of their books as is.
Their right to make that choice certainly, but what people are questioning whether or not it was the smartest marketing one, my friend.
And it’s one that doesn’t take into the choice that we all have as fans.
*gets out pull list of books she buys weekly, and often collects in tpb, with Marvel titles at the bottom–including X-Factor*
*SNIP*
Marvel doesn’t owe the fans the right to do what they want with their matierial, BUT, guess what? The fans owe nothing back. Y’all have to sell it to us–our money is not guaranteed or owed for a product we don’t need to survive.
I’m gonna take this fifteen dollars a week and sponsor a Guatemalan orphan or something now.
Best of luck, man. I think the people vilifying you need to back off and all, especially from your wife, but until all of you in the comics industry understand how EASILY your product can be cut from the lives of the fans–which has happened steadily over the last few years as you yourself said in this very post–the comic book industry is going to continue to suffer. Cutting down on sites that work to get others enthusiastic about their material, rather than offering a clear standard set of regulations for them to follow and hooking into them as free advertising, is just not good business. Not when you need all the help you can get hooking people in when they need, y’know, FOOD and gas, more than comics and are thus much harder to hook.
No matter how good a writer you are, the fans still don’t owe you jack.
And to think I defended your ášš on the site from Kali.
Look, Mr. Fancypants, the fact of the matter is, no one in their right mind thought it was actually legal. It wasn’t. I’m sure people will argue that it was and trying to legitimize it.
But then mix tapes aren’t technically legal either, despite a person hearing a song on a mix-tape and deciding to hunt the artist down and buy their album. I got into Weezer, and several other bands and bought their CDs that way when a friend gave me a mix CD in high school. I could have, of course, downloaded the files, but I didn’t.
The fact of the matter is, as much as you want to deny that such a site is remotely beneficial to the comics industry or comics creators, I personally got into X Factor by seeing it on the site. I got into Blue Beetle the same way. I then proceeded to go out and buy X Factor and Blue Beetle. I would have never bothered to pick them up because I am not an author loyalist that goes from one work to another unless I’m dámņ sure it’s good and half the time, it takes repeated exposure to get me interested. If I’m not buying, I don’t get repeated exposure–which means I just tend not to buy. Usually my friends get me into a comic by letting me read a stack of issues to catch up and then I start picking up. S-D was the equiv of my friends who show me cool stuff–just on the internet, which, yeah, you can argue that’s publishing, or you can argue it’s just a nonphysical way of showing people something you paid for.
Do you really truly think Marvel has dealt a blow against copyright infringement by nixing a site that limited the number of pages shown and the point of which was to encourage people to go out and start picking up a comic they like? Do you think that any of us don’t know of about ten different comics filesharing sites offhand that we could get it free from? We all know the sites. S_d was particularly great because of the large impetus and attitude to not USE said sites. Very few even CARE about the illegality and the “buy it!” attitude was more a result of not wanting to dìçk the creators over. I know of a multitude of ways I could easily get away with ripping stuff off on the legal end. I choose not to, because I want creators like you to get your well-earned and well-deserved money.
The faction of S-D believed in sharing to encourage buying. When Blue Beetle’s sales were dropping, many scans_daily members that were fans went out and ordered tpbs, bought up extra issues, and otherwise tried very hard to do their small part to bump up sales on a comic they were already buying. They encouraged other people to get into it and start buying, too, trying to incite interest in others.
Ultimately, it wasn’t enough–but it illustrated the key focus of the comm–buying comics. The internet comics mixtape. Like this Jack Kirby stuff? Go buy the omnibus. Like this Batman’s No Man’s Land retrospective? Pick up the trade paperback.
I think anyone arguing that it’s legal or that Marvel has no right to decree what is done with their material is full of hooey, but up comes the Border’s argument again–I think it’s more that people are arguing that Marvel might be wiser to take the Border’s tack than the Byrne’s comic shop one, and several creators other than yourself apparently agreed with such a thing or the site would’ve been reported yonks ago, given some of the names frequenting it.
As for correlating dropping sales with the existence of scans_Daily, what the hëll is up with that?
Considering that sales have been in a steady decline for the duration of Scans’ existence, I have to observe that golden geese aren’t what they used to be.
Economic recession, much? Everyone and their auntie Jemima is broke right now, and the first thing that takes a cut is the things that aren’t necessities–like comics. My pull list has been drastically shortened due to economic reasons. In fact, again, one of the only reasons I’ve recently picked up books was seeing them on s_d and going “…welp, looks like I need to figure out how to fork out a few extra bucks a week, because good god, I want that, so where can I cut down on expenses somewhere else…”
Outright wholesale file-sharing and the economy sucking is killing comics. Event fatigue is killing comics. Prima donna authors entrenched in their ways that get preferential treatment instead of allowing new blood in to invigorate the industry is killing comics, because to sustain that much-beloved gore-loving majority, the minorities are slowly being shaved off and gradually leaving the fandom, rather than both the majority and minority being catered to and preserved. (And that’s not in reference to you, man, that’s in reference to a lot of people).
THAT’S what’s killing comics. Not places that encourage people to BUY them.
These fans are deciding on behalf of the publishers the best way to handle the publishers’ property
Here’s the problem. They DON’T have a right to decide that, I agree. They DO, however, had a right to decide what to BUY. They are, as much as the comics companies and creators seem to hate it sometimes, the lifeblood of the industry. Their fannish fickle whims decide your fate as a comics creator, decide whether some of you are in the financial flush or applying for food stamps, especially during a time when most people can’t fork out as much for comics and have to be judicial about it.
This isn’t a question of legality or moral ownership, because you’re right–those questions already have an answer: Marvel’s material, Marvel’s choice.
The question is whether that’s the economically-sound choice when people are too busy trying to make rent let alone buy the latest tpb. Whether it would be better for Marvel to arrange a system for so the less scrupulous comics readers can buy a digital version of new comics cheaply so they might forgo filesharing because 99 cents or something of the like is a SWEET deal. Whether Marvel themselves think it’d be better to provide more than six pages of a promo and closer to scans_daily’s ten, so that sites like scans_Daily can just post what Marvel themselves have released (and quite often, they already did–whenever promos are released by the big two, they tended to end up on the site for discussion).
The poster above made my point.
So far as current/future online fan reviews and discussions of comics are concerned, how do you define ‘fair use’? How many panels or pages could a fan/blogger post from a single comic as part of their discussion? Is there an established industry standard definition for fair use in regards to comics reviews, or is it just a common sense sort of anecdotal standard?
Deciding on a standard–and a GOOD one, that’s the ticket here. It is Marvel’s decision, certainly–but they’d best make the wisest one they can. Marvel legal would’ve been much better off USING a site like S_d, asking them to limit the number of scans (maybe to 8; that’s a good number for showing off a story) but maybe popping them extra promo stuff to push to its around 9000 members.
Instead they’ve disenfranchised 9000 people, many of which were already annoyed at some of the choices Marvel has made and close to dropping some of their books as is.
Their right to make that choice certainly, but what people are questioning whether or not it was the smartest marketing one, my friend.
And it’s one that doesn’t take into the choice that we all have as fans.
*gets out pull list of books she buys weekly, and often collects in tpb, with Marvel titles at the bottom–including X-Factor*
*SNIP*
Marvel doesn’t owe the fans the right to do what they want with their material, BUT, guess what? The fans owe nothing back. Y’all have to sell it to us–our money is not guaranteed or owed for a product we don’t need to survive.
I’m gonna take this fifteen dollars a week and sponsor a Guatemalan orphan or something now.
Best of luck, man. I think the people vilifying you need to back off and all, especially from your wife, but until all of you in the comics industry understand how EASILY your product can be cut from the lives of the fans–which has happened steadily over the last few years as you yourself said in this very post–the comic book industry is going to continue to suffer. Cutting down on sites that work to get others enthusiastic about their material, rather than offering a clear standard set of regulations for them to follow and hooking into them as free advertising, is just not good business. Not when you need all the help you can get hooking people in when they need, y’know, FOOD and gas, more than comics and are thus much harder to hook anymore.
No matter how good a writer you are, the fans still don’t owe you jack.
Good evening, Mr. David,
I was never an active member of the scans_daily community, but I did have the misfortune of reading it amidst the unfortunate altercation between you and a number of posters.
The comments posted against you were completely inappropriate and out of line. It is one thing to criticize a person-or writer, as it were-and disagree with their opinions. It is quite another to wish them ill. It is unfortunate that the more rabid of individuals often make a community look deplorable as a whole.
Nevertheless, the main issue that I have seen as far as blame towards you is concerned is not necessarily due to the actions you took, but rather assumptions regarding your motivations behind them.
I imagine people blame you for blowing the proverbial whistle not only because you found the community legally objectionable-which it was, I have no delusions otherwise-but also because you were angry that comments were made against you and your work and you felt like having the last laugh.
I certainly don’t presume to know you and am certainly not saying my observations are in any way justified. They are assumptions and nothing more and in the end, mulling over the “whys” really does not help the situation.
What’s done is done and I regret that most of my exposure to you and your work have come about due to kafuffle with scans_daily.
Regards
Yes, laws stop muggers.
Wait, what?
I admit that I’m not much for clarity (sick as a dog) or anything really (kind of a dûmbášš) but insulting my statements is not refuting them.
Geoff Sebesta Says:
March 2nd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Speaking as a small press creator who’s just trying to survive, I don’t really give a dámņ about your X-Factor spoilers or your Big Two copyright laws. Seems like it never helps the small guy and always hurts. Like, for example, right now.
D00D! Send me 5 free copies of your comic! Wait, make that 10!
So it comes down to this–
Scans Daily was a den of thieves.
And now they are acting like terrorists.
Glad I never associated with them.
My theory is that any internet community with more than a hundred people is mostly good folks, except for a small percentage of jerks. We’re seeing some jerks from the SD community, but I don’t think they represent the whole or even the majority.
Namecalling: the American way.
I also wish you’d just man up and act like you think so too.
Umm, ok. PAD has given his version of events, but you say he needs to man up? You’re right, PAD. You should have just lied. Maybe that’s how you’re supposed to ‘man up’ anymore, rather than be honest and truthful.
Maybe some more of these H&R’s from SD would ‘man up’ and admit that they’re wrong in how they’ve responded to this whole situation. Now that would be a welcome change of pace.
PAD,
Man up. Turtling it out and hiding in a defensive shell over “copyright” is not an accurate representation of your true attitudes given your history over spoilers. Not fair use of images and copyright, but with “The Internets!!!” discussing your books at all.
Were you not pitching fits on places like Comic Book Resources because people were writing out detailed summaries of your issues? That they would post spoilers (in threads marked “SPOILERS!” or with appropriate spoiler tag codes)?
You carried on and on and on, lecturing people on how unseemly, how wrong, how TERRIBLE! it was for someone to take an issue of a published work, re-cap it, or mention any specific spoilers what-so-ever. And this is text — not images. You pitched a fit. Lovely.
And likewise, you pitched a fit over online scans. I care not about scans daily. I agree with you about appropriate applications of fair use and copyright.
I don’t agree with your messiah complex in characterizing this as the “IGNORANT MASSES NOT UNDERSTANDING BASIC COPYRIGHT AND FAIR USE LAWS!” It’s a weak position. You’ve been raving about text-based descriptions, summaries, and spoilers of PUBLISHED works as though that were so unseemly.
I’ll make sure to get you some smelling salts for you as a Hannukah gift this year, lest you get another case of the vapors. Twist in the wind all you want, but seriously — man up and admit you just don’t like spoilers, it’s not just about “Scans Daily” and images, but it’s more of a pathological need to for you to rail against “spoilers” in any form for Lord knows what reason.
PAD: It had no value.
Geoff: Just because it had no value to you does not mean that it had no value.
PAD: You’re only saying that because it had value to you.
Geoff: *facepalm*
Wow. I sound like a real áššhølë. Where do I get off saying it had no value? I mean, I must have said it. It has quotation marks around it right there in your post. I don’t recall saying it. I don’t even recall thinking it. But I doubt you’d just make that up. Wow. I’m sorry. I should never have said that thing in quotes I don’t remember saying anywhere.
Okay, man, you didn’t shut s_d down, but you want to be the cheerleader/lightning rod for those who did, I just don’t get it,
Neither do I, since I’m not cheering about it and wasn’t looking for grief over it. So it seems to me we’re actually on the same page. Or, y’know, not.
If nothing else comes out of this mess, I hope you’ll re-examine your attitude towards copyright law and start to think about how things are on the internet.
I’m genuinely curious. Seriously, I want to know, since the unexamined life is not worth living:
How would you have me re-examine it? You mean I should, upon consideration, that copyright shouldn’t apply to the internet? That it should be exempt somehow? That copyright owners shouldn’t get to control how their material is disseminated? Because if that’s what you’re hoping will happen, I doubt I will. If that’s not it, then to what are you referring?
PAD
And you’re right. It’ll just set up someplace else. It already did. But now it’s lost its history (years of work from thousands of people), and now it doesn’t like you. What does that accomplish, sir? How does this get people to read your books or take an interest in your ideas? Is this going to triple your sales? What, on earth, was the point of all this? Everybody loses.
So you’re basically saying that I should not have said anything–I should have kept silent, ignored copyright law–bottom line, out of self-interest?
Like you?
PAD
“an up and admit you just don’t like spoilers, it’s not just about “Scans Daily” and images, but it’s more of a pathological need to for you to rail against “spoilers” in any form for Lord knows what reason.”
That’s an odd argument you have there since I’ve seen PAD engage in spoiler discussions in threads that were clearly marked as having spoilers in them for TV shows, movies, books, comics and even his just released comics both here and elsewhere without acting as you’ve described. Care to link an example or are you just repeating the story that someone else told someone else who told someone else who told you what a jerk he is?
I’ve seen him say things about spoilers here and elsewhere pretty much only when one thing happens. Someone posts a spoiler in a thread not marked as a spoiler discussion thread about a subject or, as I did in my flu medicated moment of excitement the night BSG’s last season started a few weeks back, posts a spoiler in an unrelated thread. That’s it. And I’d tend to agree with him that neither of those are great places to post such things.
Duffgirlohyeah Says:
Oops. I seem to have dropped an HTML tage in my last post – that’s me descending to Novaya Whining Fanboy Wáņkër® Havoc‘s level, not Duffgirlohyeah/ who seems to have already plummeted past it some time ago…
I just want to make sure that i get the proper credit for my bad manners.
From the ELEGANT commenter known as “Duffgirlohyeah” Says:
“Hey Novaya Whining Fanboy Wáņkër® Havoc – if you’re telling PAD he hasn’t got the balls to stand there and let you and your Whining Fanboy {and -gurl} Wáņkër® buddies sling mud at him and lie about what he did and why he did it … do you suppose you could “man up” and use your real name?
Or are you afraid that the Jackbooted Comic Industry Copyright Thugs will come and kick in your mother’s basement door and speak severely to you and make you cry?
Okay; i have officially Descended To Their Level. I’ll try not to do it until there’s some new controversy…”
—
Babes, please. I’m a FanBoy Wáņkër? LOL! Sure. Of Dazzler, perhaps. Of scans daily? Nah.
You want my real name? Feel free, it’s Benjamin. Like the Bible. Enjoy it. Want my last name? Then you have to take me to an elegant, candle-lit dinner at Red Lobster first. If I’m not going to tell a hot Latin boy my last name on a first date, why should I give you the privilege? Oh — that’s right: you’re entitled. As someone on the side of PAD, you are an angel, and I — a tragic, basement-dwelling (LOL IF ONLY! I miss my parents who are a State away, thank you) troglodyte — am the Devil. I am a 101st Fighting Keyboardist, championing things I dare not ever ascribe to in “real life.”
I own my words. I don’t own distortion, martyr-complexes, and the rest of that unholy gamut. I’m not talking about the “Jackbooted COMICS INDUSTRY.” I am talking about PAD and his own special brand of “DO NOT DISCUSS MY WORK, EVEN IN TEXT FORM!!!!” and now acting like he’s only concerned about image copyright.
Give me a break of your Kit Kat Bar. And it’s only fair, “DuffGirl” to ask you: what is YOUR real name?
I’m honestly quite sorry that you’re catching so much šhìŧ over this whole thing. I mean, I was a fan of scans daily and viewed it regularly, but I can honestly say I hold no ill will and still absolutely love you and all your work. Guess I just wanted to express that not all of us S_D readers were áššhølëš, idiots, or upset with you. Personally I don’t think you did anything wrong at all and I’m just sad your name is being dragged around like it is.
Looking forward to the next issue of X-factor and what happens with…while, the ending of the last issue.
So far as current/future online fan reviews and discussions of comics are concerned, how do you define ‘fair use’? How many panels or pages could a fan/blogger post from a single comic as part of their discussion? Is there an established industry standard definition for fair use in regards to comics reviews, or is it just a common sense sort of anecdotal standard?
It’s a fair question, and one without any easy answer. Different publishers have different requirements.
For instance, when I did a book on writing comics, I had to get clearances from all the publishers that I wanted to use artwork from. Most of the publishers were extremely generous, telling me that I could use as much of their material as I wanted because it was a book intended for educational purposes. They didn’t even charge use fees, unless I wanted to use characters on the cover (which I obviously didn’t do.)
One publisher, however, gave me the runaround for two months and then told me point blank that they had no intention of granting me repro rights because–and I quote–“We reject 99% of all such requests.” Frustrated, I cut back the amount of material of theirs I wanted to use and then said, “The total amount of material I want to use will constitute no more than three percent of the total final product. Would you consider that to be within the limits of fair use and thus permissible?” They said yes, they would consider that fair use, and thus had no problem.
Frankly, the best way as far as I’m concerned for Scans to avoid problems is for the mods to contact each individual publisher and ask them. It will be time consuming and cumbersome initially, sure. But once it’s done, they’ve got a paper trail, they’re protected, and they can put together guidelines that actually mean something. (The first thing in the guideline being that all reproductions must carry proper copyright lines. That’s required by law, and copyrights have been lost for failure to include them. They’re not hard to find; they’re in the indicia.)
Not only that, but they may well have a means of genuinely measuring Scans’ impact. For instance:
Publisher A says, “You can reproduce up to 50% of any given issue in total.” (Which, granted, is going to require some coordination; if you have one poster reproducing the even pages and another reproducing the odd pages, then you have a problem.)
Publisher B says, “You can reproduce entire issues.”
Publisher C says, “Go away, you bother me.”
And after a year’s time, if Publisher A’s sales go up fifteen percent, Publisher B’s sales go up twenty nine percent, and Publisher C’s sales go up zero…THEN you’ve got something that you can attach a cause-and-effect argument to.
I’ll tell you right now, if that’s something the mods are remotely interested in pursuing, I’ll be happy to make some calls on their behalf. Can’t promise results, obviously, but at least I have all the contacts on my phone list.
PAD
Yes, PAD. Acting out of intelligent self-interest is generally expected of mature adults.
Do you really truly thing Marvel has dealt a blow against copyright infringement by nixing a site that limited the number of pages shown and the point of which was to encourage people to go out and start picking up a comic they like?
Keeping in mind that I still have no personal definitive knowledge of what role Marvel did or didn’t have in the site’s closure, no. I don’t think they dealt a blow against copyright infringement. I think they simply did the due diligence that the law requires in protecting their copyright. Marvel was never interested in “nixing a site” in any event. They simply had to protect their copyright as the law required. And, not for nothing, but considering that Marvel has been sued any number of times (as has DC) over copyright matters, don’t you think they kind of have to remain vigilant?
PAD
I wish this kind of storm and fury could be aimed at bigger fish than S_D, which–while legally not on the up and up–wasn’t the replacement for the real thing that the multitude of torrent trackers and mostly anonymous forums online are.
I guess, though, that so many of them are in a more legal grey area, geographically. So that possibly keeps the owners of the sites that should be priority one from getting their legal comeuppance.
I’ve mostly been keeping quiet about this issue because I was not a regular reader of S_D, and because I know there’s not much chance of convincing one side to completely agree with other on the issues of what is fair use and what isn’t.
As for correlating dropping sales with the existence of scans_Daily, what the hëll is up with that?
I never actually did say that Scans was directly responsible for dropping sales; I said that sales were dropping during the time that Scans was around, but there was no way to prove direct correlation. However, when I learned that sales have not, in fact, been dropping but instead increasing, I made a point of saying so. Judging by the reactions, I sure wasn’t the only one surprised. And considering the monthly hand-wringing and gloom and doom that’s so pervasive it even convinced me–who should have known better–I’m sure glad I made a separate posting about it.
PAD
You know, it’s interesting – I’ve been reading comics, off and on, since I was a kid. I even had most of the Marvel New Universe stuff in the ’80s. (Well, except Kickers and Merc – I had a bit of disposable income then, but not enough to buy crap just to be a completist.) I’ve also been reading PAD’s blog for quite some time, and been referenced to ComicMix.
And in all these years, I’d never heard of Scans_Daily until it came up here.
How on Earth could I possibly have learned about which comics I enjoyed and which ones I didn’t without an all-knowing website full of copyright violators to tell me? I mean, according to some of the site’s former users, there’s no other way to find out about the new stuff. I obviously never read every single issue of ElfQuest, its first two sequels, or the rather charming Hamster Vice, because you can’t possibly learn about minor publishers in comics shops, or from real-life friends.
Kids, lighten up, step away from the keyboard, and go outside for a few minutes. That funny smell out there? It’s called fresh air.
I imagine people blame you for blowing the proverbial whistle not only because you found the community legally objectionable-which it was, I have no delusions otherwise-but also because you were angry that comments were made against you and your work and you felt like having the last laugh
Except the comments and attacks directed at me came after the artwork was already taken down.
They’re also overestimating the impact that the attacks had on me. I’ll grant you, I was appalled at the discovery of this whole “Die in a Fire” thing. I’ve been participating on the internet going on a quarter of a century and that was completely new to me. Other than that, though, it was–honestly–nothing I hadn’t encountered before in some form or another.
And I wasn’t angry about comments regarding the work. The work is the work. Say what you want about it. I don’t mind. Hëll, sometimes I agree with it. Believe it or not, I’m a far harsher critic of my work than anyone else. All I see–ALL I see–are the flaws. I can count on the fingers of one hand everything I’ve done that I’m 100% satisfied with. The only types of comments I’ll ever take issue with are along the lines of, “PAD clearly didn’t try with this one.” I always try; I just don’t always succeed.
There have been times in the past where forums in which I participated simply became too nasty. You know what I did? I left. Simple as that. I didn’t nurse a grudge or wish ill will. I said, “I’m gone. Have fun.”
I have no doubt that people see things exactly the way you describe them. People see what they want.
PAD
The sense of enetitlement that fanboyz (and gurlz) have about stealing an author or publisher’s materil – i mean, it’s just words and pictures, not like it’s something real> that has any real value – never fails to amaze and amuse me.
I am entitled. You know why? I don’t NEED comics. This is MY money, and I am entitled to it because I earned it. PAD is not entitled to it. I choose where it goes. He has to sell his product to ME, he has to appeal to ME with the quality of his product, and convince me it is worth spending my money that I have worked hard to earn on it, because it is not something I need to survive. His success of an author is, yes, appealing to his fans to spend their cash.
Marvel, in general has to do it, DC has to do it, book publishers and TV shows have to do it–any person that creates and is trying to make a living by selling something they created, that is not a necessity to the population for survival like food or gas, or heat, needs to make it worth the reader’s while, and they need to advertise in ways that actually hook them.
Six pages, sometimes of unlettered art, doesn’t hook me. Ten pages of an issue with associated fan discussion, where I ask other fans about the comic and whether it’s good and for background on that one guy in that interests me… that DID hook me. It got me buying. The attitude was “Your money is your vote. If you don’t go out and buy this, you won’t be voting to keep it around.”
If that kind of advertising is not provided, I’m probably not going to buy, because I tend not bother going out of my way for comics. I don’t frequent CBR, I don’t go to the main company sites, and only found this via a link through LJ–no time; busy life.
I’m not a hardcore comics fan, I’m a chick that stumbles on ones I like here and there. S_d was on my flist, where I could scan through to see everything I was interested in–in one place. Most of my online nerdery is in one place for convenience–LJ. I don’t have time to hang around the comic book store to talk to people about what’s good or go to cons or whatever to see the promo stuff. I pop in to the shop, grab the books I’ve already researched and chosen, and pop out.
I’m simply stating what works for me, advertising-wise. And saying it should be capitalized on instead of shut down. And considering I got hooked on X-factor from seeing scans on S_D, around issue twenty and have spent around $120 on issues and tpbs since, following the series, it absolutely cannot be refuted that such a method of advertising made Marvel and my local comic book store some cash. 120 bucks. That’s not chump change. That’s twenty issues at three dollars a pop, and three tpbs at twenty a pop.
Tell ya what, Duff – when you grow up, come talk to us again. And, yeah, orphans in Guatamela are a good place to send the $$$ you won’t be spending on PAD’s stuff. But i wonder how long you can keep to that before you need a fix.
It’s not a fix. It’s not heroin. It’s images and words on paper for twenty odd pages at 3 dollars a pop. You could burn it in a fireplace to achieve some sort of practical purpose, but it’s not as good as firewood or paying your gas bill.
I went for four years without reading any comics because none interested me during that time. Easily. It was no problem at all, because I have other all-consuming hobbies and had to focus on studying. I saw a few good ones and picked up again. I could drop them again, just as easily.
This is because I AM an adult. I’m not addicted to funnybooks, they’re simply a means of entertainment that I can go without if necessary and replace with other entertainment, or god forbid, given that I’m a nerd and we’re supposed to despise daylight, going out with my friends somewhere.
What I’m not insisting on is that people have a right to pirate whatever the hëll they want and not pay. I’m insisting that given the nature of comics as a non-necessity during troubling economic times–and just a non-necessity in general–Marvel should have a clear policy on what constitutes fair use that sites like scans_daily can make sure they follow, rather than shutting them down. So that they can advertise FOR Marvel, in places Marvel doesn’t advertise, to hook people like me that can’t be áršëd to go on the main site.
USE such sites to pull in readers you’d likely never hook–there was a large female contingent that had never bothered with comics before the site that were on the site–send them extra promo material sometimes. Marvel would be wiser to key in than shut down.
You can argue that such sites ruin sales until the cows come home, but considering most online comics aficionados KNOW all the piracy sites and espoused sites like s_D instead, where buying was encouraged, Marvel’s just shooting themselves in the foot here.
The fact of the matter is, we do not need the comics book companies. The companies need us. They need to figure out how to sell it to us, because yes, some of us are picky, especially with a product we don’t NEED. And this particular site in question got one person spending $120 of her well-earned cash on Mr. David’s book–money that she won’t be spending anymore, because she doesn’t feel obligated to give money to a tattletale putz. That’s like making a mix tape and the artist of a song rats you out to the RIAA when you were trying to get a friend to buy their album, and mere words weren’t convincing them. I don’t financially support people that shoot themselves in the foot. It seems counterproductive somehow–I don’t want to encourage foot-shooting, you know?
Sure, it was Marvel’s right, but it’s just as much my right not to give them any money, so yeah, I am entitled. Bìŧçhëš gotta sell it to me. My money is not their right to own. Unlike you–apparently–Mr. Weber, I’m not a crackhead for comics. I’m not going to come crawling back when I, like many if not MOST comics fans, do actually have a life that can fill the comics void.
If you don’t, and you are literally addicted to comics, to the point where you can’t be a savvy consumer, and have to buy them even when you don’t like what the company is doing with the writing, or how they market their products, or how they package their products (I for one, would like a means of buying NEW comics digitally), or they don’t advertise in a space where they see it and shut down where you talk about it, then you must live in a very sorry state of existence, my friend.
Is your crackpipe lined with old issues of Animal Man or a shredded Jack Kirby omnibus? That sure as hëll must be a high.
Anyway, gotta go get me hooked up to pay for my Guatemalan orphan now. Chuy needs a new pair of shoes.
Man up.
Where did this whole “man up” thing come from? Sounds vaguely insulting to women, if you ask me.
Turtling it out and hiding in a defensive shell over “copyright” is not an accurate representation of your true attitudes given your history over spoilers. Not fair use of images and copyright, but with “The Internets!!!” discussing your books at all.
That’s a separate issue. Yeah, I think the internet tends to undercut a writer’s ability to surprise readers. But what does that have to do with anything? If there had been nothing but a blow by blow description of XF #40 and no artwork, SD would have been just another site that was blowing key plot points. In fact, I never even would have known about it. The *only* thing that brought it to my attention was the CBR link that was made to it so that people could basically read the book on line. Without the artwork, without the link, none of this happens. So what are you talking about?
PAD
PAD:
Though you may take this as an insult:
Come down off of your cross.
“Die in a Fire” is a non-starter. Most Internet posters have weathered far worse over much less than the incindiary “DIAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” acronym. I was told by Claremont fans — in my critique of him — “FÃG! Get AIDS and die! LOL!” And I’m gay. Do I flip my šhìŧ and whine on about it? No. I instead use my internet prowess and smack them where it hurts. If you genuinely feel any-and-every hyperbolic move made against you is a “GENUINE DEATH THREAT!!!” I advise you to contact your local drug dealer (or pharmacist) and get a hit of the good šhìŧ to mellow out. It seems necessary. I won’t kiss and tell: promise.
On another note: you DO mind the comments about the work. There are clear quotes of you — all sandy in your vágìņá — that some WOMAN! dare SPEAK! about your writing of WOMEN! in Young Justice. C’mon. And we on CBR X-Books know darn well of your crusade against discussing PUBLISHED WORKS with COMICS FANS in an INTERNET CIRCLE which is largely insular. I know about, oh, 3 people in the City of Chicago that post on CBR, out of how many that actively post on the Internet? And you’re sandy about text-based, gory, uncensored-and-uncut spoilers?
Don’t backtrack. Own what you say, and own what you do. You did find “Scans Daily” off of one of the newly-sanitized CBR X-Factor threads, yes?
Own your egotistical power-trips, and the backfiring thereof. You do yourself few favors with this martyr complex.
Kisses,
Novaya
Oh, and BEFORE it gets jumped on, I know it wasn’t you, PAD, that made the initial complaint to Marvel legal, but I saw it quoted elsewhere (perhaps, erroneously, I will acknowledge that) that you found out it was “already being taken care of” when you went to ask, and combined with you waxing so eloquent on the matter, it certainly makes it seem as if you would’ve been the first if someone else hadn’t beat you to the punch. I may be wrong, but eh, I’m done with Marvel in general, so it’s moot. Regardless of your involvement, this would’ve been the straw that broke the camel’s back and I’d have been dropping X-Factor anyhow, with all my Marvel titles. Too many bad writing choices across multiple titles before the nixed my favorite comm to discuss and get exposed to new comics. This is just the sucktastic cherry on top.
Gee, how could I possibly take that diatribe as an insult?
Hey, Bill Mulligan–apparently one of the off-their-rocker crowd you were referring to is here. You want her? This church mouse is out of patience. If you want to pass, I totally understand.
PAD
duffgirlohyeah: “I am entitled. You know why?”
No, you’re not. You’re not entitled to anything.
“Gee, how could I possibly take that diatribe as an insult?
Hey, Bill Mulligan–apparently one of the off-their-rocker crowd you were referring to is here. You want her? This church mouse is out of patience. If you want to pass, I totally understand.
PAD”
—
Elegant. Supremely elegant. Oh, PAD — you’ve undone yourself. I have rarely seen something this elegant — adding Longshot to the X-Factor roster excepted.
I’m a “He” by the by. Fell free to “pass” on commenting about your CBR crusade against text-based spoiler summaries. After all, it is quite so unseemly, when there are “better” matters to attend to, such as your nouveau crusade against “copyright infringement” to mask your own petulant nature.
ELEGANT.
Nah, I think he was referring to me.
No, you’re not. You’re not entitled to anything.
I’m not entitled to my money? So…I’m just supposed to hand it over to whoever wants it? I don’t get to decide the terms?
I’m not entitled to get things exactly the way I want, no questions asked, no. But Marvel and DC are not automatically entitled to my cash, either. Neither is my local comic shop guy. Sucks to be him, the poor guy in the middle (he’s a nice guy, hence why I always always ever-adamant about buying everything I got hooked on, on S_D).
I’m not the kinda douche that thinks it means I have a free pass to download stuff wholesale. I don’t. It just means I have a free pass to completely go without those products if I so choose, when I’ve been a loyal customer for the last three or so years.
I am entitled to CEASE being a loyal customer, and spend that money on other products. It is, yes, the right I’m entitled to as a consumer. I am entitled to it, so I supposed that’s entitlement, but it’s my cash.
If Marvel doesn’t want to meet halfway somewhere, and maybe provide clearer terms for fair use–which is a very muddled subject as everyone knows–to allow for the fan discussion sites I that helped me enjoy the medium even more, and get exposure to other comics to flourish. If they can’t GIVE them their terms, so they can do so within the realms of fair use–I am by no means obligated to do my half: give them money.
Why should I be? It’s mine.
Nah, I think he was referring to me.
No, I was referring to Novaya. With a name like Novaya, and the harping about women, and the whole “kisses” thing, for some reason I just thought he was a she. A very unpleasant she. Now that I know it’s a guy…
Whatever. It’s late.
PAD
Where did this whole “man up” thing come from?
I’ve heard it used before, but only in relation to sports before now.
I’m sure before all is said and done, others will pick it up as a ‘rallying cry’ to use against you.
But then, as I’ve already pointed out, you, PAD, did ‘man up’ with honesty and truth. Both of which are in short supply on the interwebs.
No, I was referring to Novaya.
Oops. Cool.
Look, man, I just wanna say, on my half, none of this is personal. But what you’re seeing here is that dangerous, narrow gap between legality and fanworks, between what the Big Two thinks will bring in new fans–and what actually does. (And of course, everyone disagreeing on what actually does).
Maybe some people are right–maybe seeing comics like that leads to lower sales. But then you have folks like me that had fallen away from comics for years and only had their love for them rekindled by a place like S_D–that helped improve YOUR sales. And sadly, I’m a stereotypical chick. I need to natter on to other people about what I’ve read to enjoy it more. And I actually have to like the crowd I’m nattering to, to do it.
Obviously, there are problems with copyright law and marketing. How do the companies reach out to people like me, who wouldn’t otherwise notice? Who honestly only have time for fandom life except for in the wee hours and who would LOVE to find comics they love, but have to have them shoved in their face to notice them because of more pressing priorities and other interests?
I honestly just…can’t afford to get all the things that LOOK good in case they aren’t and the promos don’t give you the history, or a place to ask about what the heck is going on that doesn’t get a “STFU, NEWB.” The major fan-comms are primarily full of unappealing and antagonisic dudes that are harsh on the noobles, and I’ve actually had guys boggle at my being a chick before, making me roll my eyes, and I’d really rather avoid them than talk to them. I much prefer the quirky–and wildly varied–LJ folk that I can sift through to find people I like and agree with because it IS so varied.
The s_d folk seem to be reverting to a discussion comm format on lj with no scans, which is a good step, but I still wish there was some Marvel could let people preview a whole issue or something. Or a couple maybe farther back in the run.
The problem is that the middle ground is unsteady ground. What might hook someone like me is probably illegal, depending on how much is posted, so Marvel has to decide their priorities, and both ARE indeed priorities–defending copyright or hooking a new reader.
They’ve chosen the former because legally they have to, but it doesn’t help them with the second and doesn’t help me find out about new stuff in a place that’s convenient and they way I need to do it to grok it, which is usually seeing more and having someone I like nearby to ask questions about it.
As a female fan that prefers ášš-kicking over girly, in general they haven’t really reached out much to my niche, and most attempts at “girly” comics by most publishers are kinda hamhanded and borderline sexist.
I feel like they don’t really care much if I am reading or not–like they don’t really care about providing stuff that appeals to me, or is marketed in a way that makes it easy for me to pick up, or whatever.
So all I can do there is shrug my shoulders and give up, and help out lil’ Chuy or something. If it’s just not working, might as well put that cash to some constructive use.
And to end this, I do want to apologize on behalf of the schmucks that personally attacked you and your wife, especially since they’ll likely not apologize. That’s definitely not on, and I want you to know a lot of members are verbally beating the crap out of other members to do it.
Don’t backtrack.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? PAD is saying the exact same thing as he said in his initial post on the matter. Yet, he’s been told to be honest, to ‘man up’, to not backtrack. The story remains the same, so what more do you people want? Something written in blood?
I’ve been known to misread now and then, but to not read at all, when using a text-based forum such as a blog? That’s taking things to a whole new level.
* That’s definitely not on, and I want you to know a lot of members are verbally beating the crap out of other members to do it.
Er, that is:
That’s definitely not on, and everyone’s trying to stop it, and I want you to know a lot of members are verbally beating the crap out of other members to stop it.
That was awful that they bothered your wife over it.
KITTENS!
ADORABLE, FUZZY KITTENS EVERYWHERE!
I looked at the blog of one of the people who is upset with PAD. He had a post that started off saying that PAD may not have shut down SD, but he’s happy to take credit for it. This is, of course, the opposite of what PAD has done.
Another person in recent posts has accused PAD of being insulting to women, but in the very same sentence accused PAD of being a woman as a way as a way of insulting him. The inadvertent irony hurts my head.
There are people saying that PAD is going on a rampage and there are people saying that PAD is hiding. There are people saying that even if he had moral and legal right to do what he did, then he was still wrong.
When the attacks are this scattershot, it means they don’t believe something because of the facts, but that they’re making up any facts they need because they want to believe.
In other words, it’s not worth arguing. Logic won’t change their minds because they didn’t get to where they are through logic. They lost something they liked and they need someone to blame. At this point I think it’s best to just let them vent. Arguing will just make them dig in their heals, reinforcing their opinions by constantly restating them.
There have been some reasonable SD fans on this board, but they’re already as convinced as they’re going to be. To everyone else, I’m sorry that you lost your site and hope things work out for you.
Ack. I write that whole long thing and Queen Anthai says it better than I did in only 5 words.
“The images, the characters, the stories…those are all Marvel’s. Legally. Morally.”
Morally?
I think that’s quite a different discussion and covered quite well in books like Men of Tomorrow by Gerard Jones.
And sadly, I’m a stereotypical chick. I need to natter on to other people about what I’ve read to enjoy it more. And I actually have to like the crowd I’m nattering to, to do it.
I don’t see that it makes you a stereotypical chick so much as it does a stereotypical fan. You ever listen to WFAN sports radio? What else is that but people nattering on about what they enjoy?
(Actually, that’s always pìššëd me off, that people slag fans who go dressed up to conventions and such. So a convention has a dozen people dressed up as Klingons. So what? On any given Sunday you can go to a ball park and see 50,000 people, and about 10,000 of them are wearing parts of baseball uniforms. Sure, I can’t understand Klingons when they talk. Then again, half the time I don’t know what the hëll they’re saying on sports radio either, and that’s supposedly English.)
Anyway, every Wednesday I’ll be establishing a new comics thread, so if you want to natter here, knock yourself out.
PAD