UPDATED 3/1, 9:43 PM–A request to the hit and runners. By that I mean the people who swing by for the express purpose of hurling blame, invoking Gail Simone, calling me names and departing. You might want to consider taking the time to read the thread. Read it in its entirety, read the most recent posts, whatever. The chances are you will already see your comments responded to (since the H&Rs are pretty much all saying the same thing) by myself, various fans, and Gail. Honestly, I don’t expect this message to have much impact on the H&Rs, but I figure it’s worth a shot.
Did you ever hear of Scans Daily?
I had not.
Kathleen informs me that it began as a site on Live Journal where individual scenes from comic books were put up and commented upon. Apparently, this included certain panels from “Young Justice” to which homoerotic subtext was ascribed. It’s a shame I never had a chance to see those. That would have been funny.
But somewhere along the way, it morphed into posters giving page by page summaries of new comics, complete with the entire pages. Writing a critical review and posting up a panel or a page to illustrate a point falls under fair use. Posting over half the book while saying, “This happened, then this happened, then this happened,” is not remotely fair use and a blatant copyright violation.
On an “X-Factor #40” thread on CBR, someone put a link to it. This put it on my radar, and–I suspect–on other people’s radar as well.
Conscientious people have reported to me when they see flagrant copyright violations of my work (typically entire Star Trek novels being posted online). So I did the same thing, informing Marvel of the scans.
Did Marvel then shut them down? No. Because before Marvel legal had an opportunity to do anything, the scans had already been removed for being a violation of terms of service of Photobucket, the site that enabled the posters to put up pictures on line. Perhaps the CBR links put the site on PB’s radar as well as mine.
I did, however, use my wife’s Live Journal account to make my presence known. A fan asked if I had informed Marvel about the scans. An honest question. I replied honestly. I said yes, I had, but that the scans were pulled before Marvel took any action.
Two days later, Scans Daily was shut down completely. Purely a guess: Photobucket complained to Live Journal and LJ said, “Enough’s enough.”
The reaction on the blogosphere? Peter David got Scans Daily shut down.
Well…no. Again: My intervention wound up having no impact. And besides, if anyone got Scans Daily shut down, it was the fans themselves. Some will own up to that reality. Many, I suspect, won’t.
PAD
• 
I was the person who posted the X-Factor scans to s_d. I already apologized to Mr. David for the bìŧçhfëšŧ in my post (personally, I loved X-Factor #40, but s_d is a free community). And now I find out I inadvertantly caused the demise of s_d.
PAD, again, I’m really sorry for dragging you into all this. I love your work and did not mean to hurt sales in any way. I wanted to share my love of this comic with the s_d, a community that introduced me to a lot of new comics.
s_d people, I’m sorry for being partially responsible for all this. When I posted the scans I complied with the s_d rules of not posting more than half of the pages. I’m sorry you guys lost a home — ironic thing is, I hadn’t been a member for very long and it was my first post.
Which is really unfortunate. As others have noted, that community has mostly been a place to celebrate and discuss comics, including your own (dear lord, but they love YOUNG JUSTICE)
That’s interesting. The only person who spoke to me about YJ was a woman who couldn’t say enough nasty things about it, and repeatedly stated that it was proof that I was dismissive of teenagers and knew nothing about them. She also said the addition of the girls was merely an afterthought and that my treatment of the boys never rose above the level of Beavis and Bûŧŧhëád.
Perhaps I wandered into the bizarre Scans community.
PAD
Ceej said:
What it will hurt, though, are the sales on future projects like Blue Beetle, Patsy Walker: Hellcat or Manhunter. At 2.99-3.99 a pop, depending on company, there just isn’t any way that fans in this economy can be expected to ‘take a chance’ on a book like that.
Do you think it’s possible that a new community could be created? Comics You Should Be Reading or somesuch? I’d be more than willing to do so, with the caveat that 2-3 panels per issue – and never the ends of an issue – only will be allowed to illustrate.
Would that constitute fair use? I’m actually asking.
My apologies for the multiple posts. My computer was doing funky things. If any mod knows how to take those down, please do so.
It’s a real pity to find out that you were involved, even only party in getting Scans_daily, probably the best comic community online, closed down.
This was the comic that got me to go back to buying X-factor after I gave up on it during the Messiah bûllšhìŧ that was ruining most X-titles.
If it weren’t because of Scans_daily, I never would have found out about Friendly Neigborhood Spider-Man, and ending up preferring that title over other Spidey titles. I started buying your version of She-Hulk, because scans-daily showed me how much better your issues were than Dan Slott’s .
The community always had strict rules on how much was allowed to be posted and the moderators managed to keep things civil. Sure, we might not kiss the feet of a creator who came on the com. Hëll it gave me the chance to tell Dan Slott just how much his work on Spider-Man sucks. And I saw no reason to keep myself from telling him how much he ruined Amazing for me. But had I done so uncivilly, the moderators would have stepped in.
It’s a real pity to see a com like that, which got me to buy titles like Young Avengers, Frontline, Young Justice, Runaways, … and many others, a com that was more woman friendly than any other comics community out there, shut down, just because of people who don’t understand the com.
Hi. I’m Kit Sniper, a.k.a. Foxhack.
I’m pretty angry right now. I just lost almost five years of posts. Almost five years of comments, threads, and discussion.
So yes, I’m pretty angry. Just not entirely at you, Mr. David.
I -loved- S_D. I learned a lot about comics there. I had -friends- there. I’m not normal by any means, but even there I felt normal. I’m angry that we’ve lost something that has literally been part of our internet existence for more than five years – a community.
I’m not angry at the fact that you wanted those scans taken down. It’s your right, after all. But… you wouldn’t be getting so much hate from so many people right now if you’d tried to approach us and tell us that you had a problem with people posting so many scans or info.
I didn’t post so much mainstream stuff anymore. But I was thinking of letting people know about the weird stuff I’ve found over the years, stuff that’s long out of print, or just rare or unknown.
I’m trying very, very hard to not let my emotions take over this comment, but… I’m just said to see one of my only hangouts go down like that.
I’m just broken right now.
I’m not really terribly upset with you, of course, Mr. David. I wish you had gone about this in a better way, contacting the mods and requesting that the post be removed
Had it been Fallen Angel #33, I would have. Since it was a Marvel title, my job was to inform the copyright holder, which I did.
Nienke: Yes, I know. You feel badly. It’s okay. You were simply doing what had been done before. The fact that I”m taking the hit for it…well…that’s the way that goes.
PAD
PAD, I don’t understand this comment:
“Furthermore, with SD gone, it’s not as if fans are now deprived of the ability to see previews of books. Those are pretty regularly available. All they’re deprived of is a site that makes it easy for them to keep up with titles without having to pay for doing so.”
Scans_Daily was not a pirate site that posted free copies of comics so that fans could read comics “without having to pay for doing so.”
Scans_Daily was a review site that talked about old and new comics. People raved about, or (frequently) laughed at, all sorts of old and new material.
The only person who spoke to me about YJ was a woman who couldn’t say enough nasty things about it
So on your ONE visit to s_d, ONE person told you they didn’t like your work on YJ.
Mr. David, surely you’ve been a published writer long enough to have encountered all sorts of criticism. You seem to be conflating an entire community of hundreds with this one, as you say, nasty commentator. Please correct me if I have misread the intention behind your statement.
Foxhack:
As long as you don’t start screaming “DAAAAAVVVIIIIIDD!” 🙂
[i]Perhaps I wandered into the bizarre Scans community.[/i]
I wouldn’t go that far, but I’d say you managed to pick one of the very few people on scans daily that were not Young Justice fans. The amount of love that series got on S_D was more than I’ve seen in any other community. Of all the books praised there, none received as much adoration as Young Justice.
I’m not saying you didn’t have a right to do what you did, but if you think you didn’t have a part in what happened then you are bûllšhìŧŧìņg yourself. LJ asked themself if they wanted Marvel or anyone to be breathing down their necks, said fûçk no, and did what they did.
But if you think you didn’t play a key role in that, you’re critically fooling yourself.
Scans_Daily was a review site that talked about old and new comics.
That’s as may be. But it was also a site where people said, “This happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and oh my God, this happened at the end,” complete with reproduction of same that were far in excess of fair use.
That’s not a review.
PAD
PAD,
I’m the one that posted the scans on CBR and I apologize for breaking your trust on the issue.
I apologize to everyone else if you misdirect your anger at PAD, when you should have directed your anger on me.
@PAD
That’s interesting. The only person who spoke to me about YJ was a woman who couldn’t say enough nasty things about it, and repeatedly stated that it was proof that I was dismissive of teenagers and knew nothing about them. She also said the addition of the girls was merely an afterthought and that my treatment of the boys never rose above the level of Beavis and Bûŧŧhëád.
Perhaps I wandered into the bizarre Scans community.
No, you just wandered into one of the unpleasant ones. Trust me, if you’d followed it for longer, your reaction would undoubtedly be very different. It was a real community, with many varying voices, some just louder than others.
It’s the internet, like I say. Such people are commonplace in EVERY online comic community.
Honestly, I wish I could show you the abundance of evidence to the contrary. I honestly would, if LJ would open it back up even temporarily for that. It was a vibrant and mostly-intelligent group of fans, and while there’s no empirical evidence of its help or hurt of the comic industry, you’re already hearing personal reports from several people who started buying comics purely because of scans_daily.
To paraphrase Jack, it made me want to be a better fan.
I wouldn’t go that far, but I’d say you managed to pick one of the very few people on scans daily that were not Young Justice fans.
I didn’t exactly pick her. She brought up YJ out of the blue and proceeded to excoriate me for it. And she wasn’t exactly deluged by people telling her she was off base. In fact, I don’t recall anyone doing so aside from me, although I could be wrong.
PAD
@Queen Anthai:
Please, Mr. David has talent, unlike those other hacks. :p
OMG a website got shut down? On the INTERNET?
Mr. David, surely you’ve been a published writer long enough to have encountered all sorts of criticism. You seem to be conflating an entire community of hundreds with this one, as you say, nasty commentator. Please correct me if I have misread the intention behind your statement.
You kind of did. A poster told me how beloved YJ was on Scans. I basically said, Really? Because only one person spoke to me about it and she hated it. Which is, y’know, what happened. I’m not conflating anything. I have no opinion on the entire community vis a vis YJ; I’m just saying this was my one direct experience with it.
PAD
Mr. David, I apologize for the entire situation. I deeply regret that you were never able to see the many many positive posts about Young Justice that were on Scans Daily. There was a lot of love for that series there, and its sad that the creator was never able to see it.
I too, will miss the community the most. It was unique in that it was very welcoming to new readers. Since it was on live journal and not a comics specific website, it brought in many non traditional comic book readers. It was light and fun most of the time. It had a large percentage of young and female readers that was unlike any web community I’ve come across so far. It’s silly I know, but as a young female reader it was a special place for me.
Thanks again for writing Young Justice.
I suspect this is the generational gap at work. People your age have had the RIAA sort of mentality and people of my generation have the inverse. Scans Daily got me buying comics again because I had stopped completely. Most of my pull list is based on their recommendations. But this is probably besides the point.
You will never have the control of your work that you used to. There will always be another Scans Daily just like there will always be another way to download music for free. The model has to change. Your comics are available on BitTorrent for free and since its foreign there’s nothing you can do. I liked your work, and I hope you find a way to reconnect with all generations of your fans. But no matter what you do, stuff will be available for free. All you copyright advocates that are downloading music while you post need to get that.
I deeply regret that you were never able to see the many many positive posts about Young Justice that were on Scans Daily.
That’s another thing:
There are tons of people who’ve never read books like YJ, partially because books like that are criminally out of print. As such, there are tons of people who never realized just how awesome, say, Bart Allen was, or their only knowledge of the character was in TEEN TITANS, where the character was largely unrecognizable.
With Scans_Daily, we had a veritable database of evidence that I could find a handful of wonderful snippets to prove, “Here, THIS is why this character/book/creator is awesome, and why you should check him/her/them out.”
There’s no other place like that on the internet. And that, I firmly believe, could be–if it hasn’t already been–an invaluable tool for comic companies in today’s economy, and in the 21st Century.
Mr. David, congratulations on adding a very large dollop of ill will to your “whuffie” on the Internet. Were this the first action you’ve taken to engender such a large amount of ill will, I’d say it would have little effect on your career or sales. However, it’s far from the first. I will look forward to the schadenfreude accompanying your devolution into has-been.
Outside of LJ users, does the rest of the internet even care? I’m genuinely curious.
Saying it’s a “generational gap” is ridiculous.
I said something similar to this earlier to your wife and I’ll say it again here for everyone who reads your blog. Anyone who can sit there and self righteously tell me that they had a RIGHT to view those materials being posted on that website are completely and utterly without scruples. It was copyright infringement, illegal and wrong.
I don’t think fans realize how much time, effort and sheer WORK goes into the making of any artists creations. Whether it’s a painting, book, comic book, song or any variation of those, for someone to copy those images and post them on the internet without the permission of the author is inappropriate, period. And THEN to wish malicious harm, death even, on the creator…UNACCEPTABLE!!!
It’s one thing to have a discussion forum, even a sneak preview might be acceptable. But anything more than that is wrong.
And, although there were a few writers that communicated at the site, I’m sure that 99% of the people in the world who put their own talents into a piece are not going to appreciate when said piece is completely disrespected and so blatantly ripped off.
As I said to Kathy, I fully and wholeheartedly support you both, not just as a fan of yours, a LJ friend of Kathy’s, but as an artist also and had LJ not shut the site down I would have reported it myself.
Honestly, Scans_Daily was a review community. Less than half of a comic? Does qualify for fair use.
And I do think it’s cute that with all the other problems in comics, you’re trying to blame decreasing sales on Scans Daily. You could blame bloated storylines, nonsense like Brand New Day, randomly killing off characters for no reason, gratuitous shock value that sacrifices the plot, continual downturns in the economy…
Or you could just blame an internet site that continually inspires more people to buy new comics through their *reviews* of those comics. I was always a DC man, but Scans_daily introduced me to a lot of Marvel comics, providing Marvel with a lot of my hard earned money.
Marvel will still be getting my money, but you won’t. It’s not just this wankery you did on Scans Daily. The post about how we should all bow down and worship the great and mighty (and misogynistic) Frank Miller because he’s contributed years worth of crap to the industry was my first indication that you weren’t a writer I wanted to bother with anymore. This nonsense? Is the second indication. I don’t care whether or not you got Scans Daily taken down; I care that you think you had the right to object to people spoiling your precious work with other people’s characters.
Your comments to Kali didn’t put you in any favorable light either. What are you, new to writing? People *do* have the right to bìŧçh about what they perceive as crappy writing, whether it’s your god Frank Miller or you. Don’t like it? Work harder on your stories.
I’ve been reading X-Factor, but I promise you, I won’t spend another dime on anything with your name on it. You’ve shot yourself in the foot. It may not affect you, but that’s one less person going towards your “triple the sales” effort. You’re a sad person with terrible beliefs, and supporting you with my hard earned money isn’t something I feel comfortable doing anymore.
Oh, and since you don’t get the internet or how it works? Photobucket doesn’t care about Scans Daily and LJ’s TOS says that copyright infringement has to be reported by someone who actually holds the copyright. A much better guess is that Marvel took action once you bìŧçhëd to them.
You write comics. That makes you a paid fan fiction writer, essentially. The closest you’ll ever come to having someone know your *original* characters is through the mess you tried to destroy Supergirl with, a mess that DC had the good sense to rid itself of completely. The new Supergirl may suck, but at least she’s recongizable as a *Supergirl.*
Maybe you should keep that in mind, get off your high horse, and quit thinking you are entitled to any special treatment.
“All you copyright advocates that are downloading music while you post need to get that.”
Thanks for the huge sweeping assumption that anyone who objects to the way material is published online without a creators permission is BY DEFAULT also downloading piles of free music from torrents, ripping movies and by doing so handily negating their own points.
Uh, no.
I don’t download music for free; I pay for it. I don’t download comics; I pay for them. I don’t watch movies ripped to crappy Chinese video sharing sites; I buy them.
“People your age have the RIAA sort of mentality”? Oh wow. Please, tell me how old you are – I’m willing to bet I’m the same age, or quite possibly younger. More sweeping assumptions that handily try to validate all of your points; or, and here’s a thought, maybe we’re not all thieves who roll in the same boat.
Truth is, scans daily went way overboard in terms of material posted. Quite often, some of the bigger titles would have 2, maybe 3 individual posts devoted to them with no mods editing / deleting and so you were able to look at the individual posts and only be missing (say) two or three pages of an issue of final crisis, or some other title which is absolutely ridiculous.
When you try to beat the writers into some kind of submission with your “well, sites like this and bittorrents will be around forever so DEAL WITH IT” attitude, you seem to miss the point entirely.
Sites like S D will continue to be shut down, like all the other things you mention because they don’t have official approval. Don’t do it, then cry about it when it goes. These sites will only ever work when its on the CREATORS TERMS.
People with sweeping generalisations need to “get that”.
@Trevor
That’s a fallacious and specious argument. Outside of comics readership, does anyone else care about Diamond’s new distribution policy? Of course not, they aren’t part of the community it affects. Saying “no one else cares” does not negate the ill effects this is going to have on the community and its members.
Guess I will be removing X-Factor from my pull list. Too bad, it was just getting good again.
I’m talking about the larger issue Trevor. That of copyright. Of course all of your music, media files are legal, right?
What we’ve learned more recently is the difference between good exposure and bad. Most exposure is technically illegal. But does it get you more sales or less? Are they posting full scans so you don’t have to buy the comic or partial ones to intrigue you? Will fighting this battle get you more fans and sales or not? That’s what I’m talking about. Taking the hardline on unauthorized distribution is defensible, but it practical terms it simply isn’t working.
But if you’re trying to make the case that it HAS helped, then based on the steady decline of sales that matches up with how long it’s been around, I think you’ll have a difficult time doing so empirically.
With respect, I’m not sure that entirely follows through. If there was a steady sales level that dropped when s_d started, then you could make an argument that it was hurting. On the other hand, if the decline was already happening in the years before, simply saying there was a decline during those years doesn’t really prove much of anything. There has to be a change between before and after. It might even be possible that while there was a decline it was a less severe decline than before – though I doubt i’d give s_d that much credit, I feel it should be pointed out that in some situations a decline alone can mean many things – it needs to be put into context to make sense of it.
Now I’m just praying that *this* discussion doesn’t totally devolve into wank.
Now I’m just praying that *this* discussion doesn’t totally devolve into wank.
LOL N00B LURK MOAR
(…that was a joke.)
Same here. If it helps at all, consider me another s_d -er who’s sorry about whatever trouble this is going to cause you. I’m sorry it’s gone, but that’s no excuse for unpleasantness.
Dear David,
You miss my point. I’m not beating anyone into submission. I’m a musician/artist myself. I will be offering my webcomic for free. The quality is obviously dubious. I’m merely discussing the new model for artists. Things don’t work the same way anymore. Its a battle that is unwinnable. The majority (roughly 2/3’s of all piracy occurs in the East where we cannot pursue copyright claims. Instead of fighing with people that like your work, this is a chance to work with them, part of which it sounds like Mr. David has already done.
Scans Daily was a great community. I’m sorry some of you never a chance to enjoy it. It brought back a love of comics to me and my wife and others,and we bought a hëll of a lot of stuff through it.
LOL N00B LURK MOAR
(…that was a joke.)
Sigh, you’re just making me miss it all the more!
(also a joke… well, not the “missing it” part, that much is true)
scans_daily is PAD’s Brand New Day! Boycott! Boycott! Boycott! I won’t read a single word more until Young Justice marries X-Factor!
“I’m talking about the larger issue Trevor. That of copyright. Of course all of your music, media files are legal, right?”
Again with the accusations of illegally obtained media towards anyone that actually has issues with material distributed without permission when said material arguably goes beyond fair use.
I’ll say it again. All of my media is 100% legal. How do I fit into your poorly thought out framework? I’m pretty sure I’m not a one in a million, special case.
“But does it get you more sales or less?”
That’s not something you have to worry about, that’s for the rights holder to ponder. And a bunch of people saying “but I bought this and this after seeing it on scans daily” simply isn’t an accurate headcount of any sort. What do we do to measure (say) all the people that went to scans daily and never bought anything? They’re not going to jump into this discussion and say oh hi, you know us? we never bought anything.
And as I said, it was entirely possible to know your way around most comics (say) in the DC universe being published currently without ever having to buy an issue of *anything*. Wonder how many did that?
“Are they posting full scans so you don’t have to buy the comic or partial ones to intrigue you?”
again, it’s painfully obvious that many, many titles posted to scans daily went waaaay over the limits. especially any big name title, or anything where something remotely interesting was happening. Then you could pretty much guarantee almost the whole issue would be posted by two or three different people, and no mods ever seemed to step in and say wait, this is way over the odds – let’s delete that guys post.
Not that I saw. final crisis is a great example of that.
“Taking the hardline on unauthorized distribution is defensible, but it practical terms it simply isn’t working.”
No, someone complained about SD, it got deleted. Seems to be working fine. Again, it ONLY matters if the rights holder feels whatever course of action they took satisfied them. If they have to go swinging after another site in the future, they will do.
Post unauthorised scans, accept it’s potentially going to happen again. Nothing you can do about it.
Mr. David
i just want you to know that i believe you were completely in the right for reporting the site to Marvel. it was a blatant copyright infringement & as the author of the material i understand why you feel the way you do about spoilers.
i’m not rich & it takes lots of sacrifice & budgeting for me to be a comic book fan these days, but guess what? i still pay for my comics. i’d say the majority of the losers at CBR & S_D do not…it’s not fair to those of us who don’t believe in getting something for nothing & it’s certainly not fair to someone actually involved in the creative process of making these books for me to enjoy to see their work distributed freely online.
keep fighting the good fight, true fans of yours & the medium will stick around & defend you.
What Gail Simone said on her board:
“I’m sad because it means at least the temporary loss of a vibrant community.
We’re never going to be able to control every website and every poster and we shouldn’t even really be trying. If a particular set of scans is troublesome, I believe asking the SD mods would have solved the problem.
If we’re GOING to have communities like this, and we are, how much better is it to have one like scans-daily, where both the mods and posters are aware of the concerns of creators and publishers and make a genuine effort to accommodate them? Where they not only established strict posting guidelines to prevent whole issues from being posted but also enforced them quite diligently?
The truth is, there are only a handful of comics websites that aren’t run (and sometimes very heavily edited) by vested interests, like a publisher, where a sizable number of comics readers can go and share their enthusiasm about a title with a large enough audience to actually make a difference. There was a lot of dedication there, a lot of fascinating material. Yes, there was snark. Yes, some issues were panned. Who cares? The site was very heavily weighted towards books the posters really enjoyed, and served as a sample taste for many new readers. I myself have ended up buying several Marvel books in particular that I otherwise wouldn’t have even stopped to look at.
I sympathize with any creators who felt their work was spoiled. I JUST this week had the ending of my latest issue of Wonder Woman spoiled. But I don’t believe there was any malice. Quite the opposite, I believe that the poster intended only positive things and meant only to spread the word. I find that to be the motive there again and again. “Hey, I liked this book…take a look at this cool stuff in it!”
Do we really want to try to stop that instinct?
I propose a potential solution. I think, if S-D rebuilds, and I hope they do, I suggest that they make it part of the rules that if a creator or publisher objects to a particular post as being too spoiler-y, that the poster be given the choice to either modify or delete the offending posts. I would be very surprised if more than a tiny handful of creators took advantage of such a resource, but it would certainly show goodwill and I’m sure many skeptical creators would appreciate it. They might be brought more into the process. It’s not Draconian, it’s merely good faith cooperation. A creator might ask for a page to be removed. Surely that’s better than having the site nuked over a single post?
I have spoken with some S-D mods and the thing that I felt is undeniable is that they DO respect the creators and sincerely believe that what they are doing isn’t hurtful. That they self-imposed their own ethical guidelines and rigorously enforce them speaks volumes.
These people are not the enemy. They’re the good guys, and the alternative is SO much worse. You think what S-D is bad?
Watch and see what pops up in its place.
I hope that S-D regroups and continues to promote good comics. They will have my support, such as it is, when they do so”
I can’t help but keep coming back to “I contacted the Marvel lawyers, but the scans were already down”. Well, bravo. The man was dead before you shot him. You should get a medal.
Gail Simone’s post here at http://schmevil.livejournal.com/161736.html?thread=1006024#t1006024 is a breath of fresh air.
“Scans_Daily was a review site that talked about old and new comics.
That’s as may be. But it was also a site where people said, “This happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and oh my God, this happened at the end,” complete with reproduction of same that were far in excess of fair use.
That’s not a review.”
PAD, how is this any different from the detailed spoilery discussions that take place on CBR or Newsarama ir IGN or on a gazillion other small internet blogs when issues are released? Internet fans routinely share their opinions about comics. They take comics apart, page by page, word by word. They may rave or they may whine, but either way, they’re buying the books and talking about them.
Marvel and DC routinely release numerous pages of issues as marketing “previews” so that fans will talk about the books. How is a fan posting panels and pages any different? Is it only because in the first case, the copyright holder releases posts free pages online for fans to talk about, but in the second case, the audience itself posts free pages online to talk about?
You say that you weren’t familiar with Scans_Daily before you complained about it to Marvel.Scans_Daily was not an illegal torrent download site and it did not encourage members to illegally obtain free copies of comics. The vast majority of posts in that community contained a couple of panels or at most a couple of pages. People used that community to promote their favorite old and new work. Industry pros posted there, for what that’s worth, but mainly it was fan-promoted free publicity for comics. The people who posted on that site were comics buyers, not pirates.
There were thousands of members of this community and it is very true that some posts contained enough content to violate allowable free use copyright standards. But it was also moderated and the mods did the best they could to ensure that people did not exceed fair use standards. They were actively working on revising the rules to reduce the amount of content that people could post in order to ensure that people did not violate fair use copyright standards.
I’m not about to defend the rude children who frequently comment there. Fandom has always been full of immature people who mistake rudeness for wit, and that will never change; however, I will defend the community itself. It wasn’t a pirate site and it did not encourage illegal downloading. It was primarily a review/chat site and it’s a shame that its gone.
Peter David: Oh, I dunno. Luigi. At this point the edit, which claims that the thing I’m best known for is shutting down scans daily, may be accurate. And the fact that the “knowledge” itself is, in fact, inaccurate, since I didn’t actually shut it down (what, I run LiveJournal or Photobucket now?) just makes it consistent with a typical wikipedia entry…
Luigi Novi: Well, I’m not sure how much of this comment was tongue-in-cheek, and how much was literal, but my reaction to all the “WP is reliable!-No it’s not!” talk is to point out that while some of this sentiment is quite reasonable, an article’s reliability is ultimately predicated on how well WP’s policies on Verifiability, Neutrality, etc. are being followed. An unsourced stub article should not be relied on for anything. But an article in which all the material is sourced, like say, the Simone Bianchi article (which I created from scratch myself), to your own article (which I have added and edited a lot, including the addition of much material a couple of days ago) can certainly be relied upon, since I always follow WP policies, and cite the sources.
I illustrated this point is more thoroughly here: http://nitcentral.philfarrand.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi
If one wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater, then you might as well never trust the New York Times or the New Republic,/i>, if Jayson Blair and Glass are any indication. When you consider that an independent study of Wikipedia’s science articles, for example, found that they had an average of four errors, whereas Britannica had three, I think dismissing the entire site is a bit imprecise. 🙂
But if there’s anything in your article that is wrong, Peter, just explain the inaccuracies here, and I’ll correct it, using the url of the page on which you do so as the source. 🙂
Yeah, this has worked brilliantly for the RIAA. You’ve really got me. And most people don’t illegally (accidentally!) reproduce material in some form or fashion, like for instance making a copy of a song from a CD to put on their computer or Ipod.
I refuse to argue with you. I’m sure you’re right. PAD has plenty of time to surf the entirety of the Internet to make sure no in China posted pages of Young Justice. And I’m sure his stance on Scans Daily will cause the dwindling comic fans to search their souls and buy comics on pure faith again.
“The majority (roughly 2/3’s of all piracy occurs in the East where we cannot pursue copyright claims.”
This is such a fallacy, I don’t know why it continues to be kicked around.
Any country that’s a part of the WTO is subject to the same copyright laws as anyone else signed up to the berne convention.
Comics piracy is rife in places like Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia etc. And yet all of those are part of the WTO, along with Sri Lanka, Singapore, China and a bunch of others.
Companies can – and DO – pursue these claims in the East, all the time. More often than not, they’re successful. Go check out many of the most popular scan / download sites in places like Malaysia. A large portion of them explicitly post warnings NOT to upload / link to comics from (say) Marvel, as they threatened to set their legal dogs on them.
Most sites like that over there simply vanish, and there’s a constant churn. Mostly its a result of the comics readers over there *thinking* the laws don’t apply to them, rather than companies not being able to do anything.
But then the banhammer comes calling regardless and they get a rude awakening.
Mr. David, given your stance on Scans Daily, I feel I should make you aware of another web site that enables not only access to illegal comic scans but also comic spoilers. You seem to be in a better position to make Marvel aware of this than I am.
This site is known as Google (http://www.google.com/). By typing in a combination of words, such as “X-Factor #40 spoilers,” any one is able to call up detailed plot points about an issue without buying or even reading the comic book. It seems to be the kind of site that could be very damaging to comic sales.
I hope you’ll take the appropriate action. Thank you.
“The model has to change.”
And the morals have died.
“Your comics are available on BitTorrent for free and since its foreign there’s nothing you can do.
But no matter what you do, stuff will be available for free.”
I already addressed this attitude (but the spam filter hates me today) with all the respect it deserves. Maybe one day you’ll have people stealing as much from you that you and others steal from PAD and others and you’ll finally understand.
Dear Jerry,
I bought his stuff. Artist now mostly know that other people are going to things with their art that they didn’t intend. I’ve sampled, my art has been Photoshopped, my words have been stolen. I don’t care. That’s how things are now.
I used the RIAA own statistics on Asia. They have a multi billion dollar industry of computer programs, movies and music, all stolen. The majority of them will not be caught or stopped, because the WTO co-operation is in words only.
This is what it is. There will ten more Scans Daily formed by former members. They will be pretty the same, if not more abusive and less responsive to creators, probably due to some shoddy loophole. Maybe one of those sites will shut down and ten more sites will come out. It is what it is.
“The model has to change.”
And the morals have died.
Are you serious? Morals? We’re talking about changing marketing techniques and intellectual property law to accommodate new media– the way it happened when the printing press was invented, and photography, and the phonograph, and cinema, and VHS, and so on.
This is mass media, not holy writ.
“Yeah, this has worked brilliantly for the RIAA.”
On the one hand, you talk (incorrectly) about how globally, comics creators “can’t do anything” (even though they can, and do) about piracy in the East. Then on the other, you keep citing RIAA, despite the fact that RIAA have little to no relevance whatsoever with regards their specific interpretations of copyright law outside America.
“You’ve really got me. And most people don’t illegally (accidentally!) reproduce material in some form or fashion, like for instance making a copy of a song from a CD to put on their computer or Ipod.”
Again, more fluff related to RIAA. Current law still says ripping CDs in the States is covered under fair use, despite what RIAA claim. RIAA claim lots of things, but it doesn’t matter if its not the law…which it currently isn’t.
Did you know its LEGAL to make a private copy of copyrighted music even if the source isn’t legal?
Whoops, holding up RIAA as some kind of poster boy for bully boy copyright holder tactics doesn’t go so well when faced down with commonsense lawmaking, of which we still have quite a bit to go around.
“I refuse to argue with you. I’m sure you’re right. PAD has plenty of time to surf the entirety of the Internet to make sure no in China posted pages of Young Justice.”
And yet if he does, they’ll have to do something about it – and probably will – thanks to their WTO membership.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven’t had much experience dealing with other countries where copyright requests are involved. Amazingly, its NOT the wild west out there away from the internet.