So the Georgia women’s beach volleyball team beat the Russian women’s beach volleyball team. And all i could think was, wouldn’t it have been interesting if the leaders of the respective countries (whose names I’m too lazy to spell) had staked the resolution of their disputes on the outcome.
In fact, even better: rather than rolling in tanks and blowing up terrified citizens, have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring. Settle this BS like men.
PAD
• 
Also, the arguement sketch illustrates that some people will go out of their way for a fight.
Aside from this helpful comment, do you have anything to add to the discussions about the Spanish athletes or about offense in general?
No, actually, at this point I don’t. The productive comments were made a long time ago, and at this point it seems to be a contest about who can be the most deliberately obtuse in misunderstanding other people. I appreciate a lot of the insights you’ve added to the discussion, Micha — your ideas are generally pretty solid and well presented — but this particular discussion has gone so far ’round the bend that it’s coming back around for at least a third pass.
This wasn’t intended to single out any particular person, really — it was just a general frustration with what the discourse has become. I almost made the same comment 12-24 hours earlier, so it definitely wasn’t prompted by any particular post or person. Inasmuch as I adore the Python argument clinic, I’ll quit here before it turns into getting hit on the head lessons.
TWL
“’Can you please get to that “if at all” point sooner rather than later? It would be a really cool thing for you to do and make lots of people really happy.
Thanks.’
Jerry, that was before you tried to apply the eastern water metaphor for the mind’s liquidity as a metaphor for the accumulation of knowledge. And extended it as a metaphor for how people pass, with no sense of irony, uncorrupted knowledge to each other. To which I pointed out how diabetics would provide the most diluted urine to come closest to what you were literally describing. And because I turned your own stupidity on itself, you had to take it and like it.
Most of your errors aren’t that entertaining. But I can rely on them, like in this thread where you implied the Chinese government spoke for everyone who could possibly be offended by the Spanish photo. So there’s always a reasonable hope you’ll err. And considering the authority you enjoy professionally, I consider pointing out these kinds of unforced errors on your part a service to your community and everyone around you.
You’re welcome.”
Wow, Mike… You’ve made so many stupid statements and errors in such a tiny post; are you trying to set a new record for yourself?
You’re still trying to spin that eastern water metaphor into some sort of debate point win for yourself? Really?!? Gee, the thing was written in a silly style to mimic the way the monks in Kung-Fu TV series always talked, it was clear to everyone (well, except you obviously) that it was a goof post making fun of the new depths of stupidity you’d reached in that thread and it ended with a spoof of the ‘take the stone from my hand’ bit from the Kung-Fu TV series so that even the dimmest bulbs would cotton to the fact that it was just so much parody. But good old Mike, a man who is so dense that he makes the density of diamond seem like gas vapor in comparison, still wants to debate it as though it was meant to be a serious examination on the nature of intelligence. Yeah, almost as funny as the time you seriously responded to the fictional police report, even pointing out examples of ‘straw dogs’ in it, of your mugging by elementary school kids.
Strangely, this is the least confusing aspect of your nature. Your inability to distinguish humor from serious debate or to distinguish fact from fiction has been made crystal clear to all here many times before. If nothing else, the fact that discussions about race and racial tensions in America is usually filled with posts by everyone else citing real life incidents and facts VS your citing scenes from the almost insultingly stupid movie ’Crash’ to buttress your points should make it clear to most people that my one year old son’s burbling carries more intellectual weight than your posts.
And I implied that the Chinese Government spoke for everyone who could possibly be offended by the Spanish photo? Really?!? Hmmm… Strange that. I’ve only posted twice before this once the thread degenerated into people trying to prove who’s the better liberal by being more offended on someone else’s behalf than the persons actually targeted by the “offending” gesture. In those two posts, I mentioned the Chinese government exactly zero times. In those two threads, I used the word “Chinese” in reference to the actual event only once.
” Posted by: Jerry Chandler at August 16, 2008 10:25 PM
Yadda, yadda, yadda…
Same thing here. This is a nothing story. The Chinese have stated that they took no offense, the team has said that they meant no offense and that should be the end of it. But the PC Police have to get their pound of flesh…”
Amazingly there’s nothing there that even remotely suggests that the Chinese government spoke for everyone who could possibly be offended by such a gesture. Well, at least there’s nothing there on this world. Who knows what this thread looks like when filtered through the atmosphere of Planet M and the mental filter that causes your particular brand of dysfunctional Mikeness. God knows you’re so screwed up that you’d likely find racial insensitivity to whine about in someone simply stating that they don’t particularly care for Asian food. And it would be almost hilarious, if it weren’t so sad to see a human as warped as you, to read your arguments condemning the sheltering of a cheeseburger’s privilege by the ruling class.
Oh, Mike, before you decide to try and start a long debate with me over all of this…
Done with you now.
~8?)`
Really, it’s like shushing people in movie theater. You’re trying to do something helpful, but with everybody shushing each other you end up just unintentionaly adding to the general noise.
Please, help elevate the discussion, but adding to it, by taking it in a new direction. Talk about Georgia. Talk about the other Georgia. Talk about Georgia O’keefe. Talk about Ray Charles. Talk about the Cold War. About zombies. About comics. Whatever. Talk and listen, try to understand what others are saying. Believe me, if there’s anything interesting to talk about, nobody is going to waste a second on what’s his name.
Because honestly, to take the time to scold people in general or me in particular seems to me to be almost as much a waste of time as actually conversing with you know who. And probably less entertaining. And I doubt it improves the atmosphere.
Frankly, I don’t know why the atmosphere got tense during some of the other conversations in this thread. I suppose for my part I could be more Ghandiesque about it. But I think ultimately the best you can do is improve things by talking and listening.
And yes, I know that talking to Mike is, on the level of wholesomness, somewhere below pørņ, below reality TV, below E tv. But sometimes I happen to have a brief moment of free time when there’s a lull in the few blogs I frequent, or I don’t have much intellectual stamina. So I talk a bit with this entity that keeps droning around here.
On this whole Dogma thing and whether or not you can intend to offend by knowing that you will…
Any artist knows that something he writes, films, draws, sings or says is going to offend someone somewhere. Certainly anyone who creates something that’s deeply personal and explores the hows and whys of something that they grew up with. Dogma looked at the religion that Smith grew up in. It wasn’t truly offensive unless you where very thin skinned. Hëll, if it really took hard potshots at anyone it was the people who keep saying that the church needs to become more hip, commercial and user friendly. George Carlin’s Cardinal Ignatius Glick character was easily the most insultingly stupid character in the movie and his character was the type of person that many of the old school Catholics criticize themselves.
Did Smith realize that he was going to offend some people with this movie? Yeah. Did he set out to offend people? No.
I just don’t believe that knowing that something may be offensive to someone out there necessarily means that you’re intending to offend people. Billy Connolly has some hilariously funny bits about sex, social classes, growing older and growing up with the religious upbringing that he had. I’m sure he knows that that he’s going to offend someone out there with any number of his standup shows, but his intent isn’t to offend. His intent isn’t to attack or disparage anyone. His intent is to entertain as many people as possible. He simply doesn’t allow the ire of the few to control his entertaining the many.
Hëll, forget trying to entertain people; let’s just talk about acknowledging loved ones. There was one award show in the last few years were (I believe) Melissa Etheridge accepted an award and thanked her partner who was sitting in the audience. While I was channel surfing the radio at work later that night, I came across professional Mental Illness Poster Boy and loon Michael Savage in the middle of one of his syphilis induced rants. He was outraged, OUTRAGED, that these gay rights vermin were forcing their lifestyle and their agenda down our throats. How dare she, he asked, flaunt her perverted sexuality like that on national television. Why, he screamed, the FCC should be jumping on the awards show and the network and levying hard fines. Many of his callers, obviously residents of the same wing of the mental hospital, were making similarly offended noises.
Now I’m sure that she and other gay men and women know that their mere existence offends some people. I’m even surer that they know that public displays of their sexual preference, even such innocuous displays as doing what everyone else at a show does and thanking their girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other for their support, will certainly offend even more people. Now, in the case of everyone other than the militant šhìŧhëádš that are the equal opposites of šhìŧhëádš like Savage, does this foreknowledge of their ability to offend some people out there equal intent? I don’t believe it does it does. I mean, somehow I seriously doubt that Etheridge got up that morning and thought to herself that it would be really cool to offend a segment of the population that night if she won an award.
And most of this is a side tangent anyhow. When you point out things like Dogma, you point out things where someone had a lot of time to think about their actions and consider the ramifications. Smith worked out the concept, did the writing did the rewriting, did the casting, etc. He had a whole lot of time to think about whether or not his film might offend a mess of people before he ever even got one frame in the can. After it was done he got to think about the final product and whether or not it might be offensive to some for months before it was slated for release. There was, to beat a dead horse into the ground here, a lot of time for him to think about this.
These guys likely just did something stupid on the fly. I seriously doubt that there were months of discussions about whether or not they were going to pull their eyes into slants or not for a photo shoot. They acted silly and very juvenile in the moment. And if our Spanish bloggers are to be believed, and there really is no reason not to believe them, the Spanish culture doesn’t have quite the same view of some PC taboos that American and English cultures have. And anyone declaring that they should have just known anyhow is ignorant of just how different cultural taboos and certain gestures are from country to country. We have so many foreign visitors from so many countries in the area that I work in on top of a high number of new residents from other countries that I’ve had to go through about a dozen classes on cultural understanding and taboos. There are things that are so “strange” to the western way of thinking that your brain can fry just trying to keep track of all of the body language you have to be aware of when in a mixed crowd of dignitaries.
These guys may have legitimately thought that their actions would simply be seen as juvenile, silly and goofy but a little funny. They might not have taken into consideration that American sports journalists would go into conniption fits and that American PC bloggers would pee themselves in their fits of rage. And when they were told that they may have done something offensive they apologized.
Like I said above, this is a nothing story. The Chinese have stated that they took no offense, the Chinese team has said that they weren’t offended, the Spanish team has said that they meant no offense and that should be the end of it.
I’d love to elevate the discussion, and I will sometime when I’m not so exhausted. Katherine turned 4 on Wednesday, so with family get-togethers then and her “big party w/ friends” today, I’m wiped. Not to mention that the house looks like several princesses exploded.
(And I swear, if Playmobil wants to double their money they can offer the “valet package” of their gifts, where someone puts all those dámņ pieces together for you! 🙂
(Oh, and since my father-in-law lives in Savannah, this is technically a conversation about Georgia. Sort of. Really!)
‘Night, all.
TWL
Hmm… I’ll be at Dragon*Con next week. That’s in Atlanta, Georgia. Does that count?
Jerry Chandler: “There are things that are so “strange” to the western way of thinking that your brain can fry just trying to keep track of all of the body language you have to be aware of when in a mixed crowd of dignitaries.”
Yeah, Jerry, the thing is, when you kicked that government official from Saudi Arabia in the nuts… well, there’s no country out there where that *isn’t* considered a bad thing to do.
What have I said that I shouldn’t have said? If I believe what I say, why shouldn’t I say it?
I wasn’t even talking to you. As a minor still in public school, Alan, your state probably provides some kind of program where you can ask for help about all these grudges you feel free to act on but never articulate or justify. You’re like a pressure cooker. The rest of your youth is too precious to waste like this.
You don’t talk about things you’ve experienced that have entertained you? Say no, then your question will mean something.
Choose whatever wording you want to describe you taking a single statement as representing an ethnicity. You’re still a dìçk.
And this time, I really mean it.
I keep saying this. Thank you for validating my observation.
Yeah, Jerry, the thing is, when you kicked that government official from Saudi Arabia in the nuts… well, there’s no country out there where that *isn’t* considered a bad thing to do.
True — however, in Ironballsistan it’s not considered a major diplomatic affront — more of a social gaffe.
TWL
About zombies.
zzzzzzzzzzz…snort! Wha? Someone say zombies?
Actually I think Smith DID intend some of Dogma to be offensive. He had a monster made of šhìŧ! That’s only funny because it IS offensive. The whole point of gross out humor is to offend. Now for some people the reaction to offensiveness is to laugh. Others get angry either at the offensive nature of the joke (“Shìŧ is not funny!”) or the fact that is is a joke (“How dare he think I’m gonna laugh at this šhìŧ!”)
(My nephew Jack Mulligan just wrote a doc for Starz: Starz Inside: In the Gutter – Gross-Out Comedy and the Death of Taboo so this has been on my mind.)
I think it’s too simplistic to say artists don’t intend to offend. They often do, either A-for the publicity, B-to get a reaction (laughter, mostly), C- as a way to stimulate discussion and D- to push the envelope, to break ground. Hershel Gordon Lewis was no dámņ good as a director but Blood Feast will forever have a place in cinema history.
I think part of the problem is that we often assume that being offensive is bad–it usually is but it may depend on the intent of the artist and the complicity of the viewer in the act (ie, if you voluntarily go to see Jáçkášš 2 you are intentionally going to see how far they go, and how much you can take. No point in getting all pruney around the lips and demanding you money back when they start drinking bull semen.)
“Yeah, Jerry, the thing is, when you kicked that government official from Saudi Arabia in the nuts… well, there’s no country out there where that *isn’t* considered a bad thing to do.”
Yeah, well, he shouldn’t have said what he said about Frankenstein Conquers the World. There are some lines you just don’t cross.
Bill–I dunno, brother, the Amazon dignitaries thought that was funny as hëll.
Okay, on to offense, some people will be offended by literally ANYTHING. I know a few people who’ve found PAD’s Trek books en masse completely offensive since they don’t take Trek seriously. A couple of them found some of my GI Joe books really offensive also because all war toys are bad. I never did ask though if they thought my writing was any good. If you try not to offend ANYONE ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME you end up with characters sitting on their butts playing checkers. Which would offend couch potatoes, those who hate couch potatoes or potatoes of any sort, the state of Idaho, several Irish families and those who are compulsive exercisers. To say nothing of Chubby Checker and people who lay black and red floor tiles. I don’t know about these Spanish guys, whether or not what they did was offensive intentionally or what. Now, I haven’t seen any sign of any Asians actually being offended by this, HAS there been?
Tim–AMEN, man, AMEN. If you get Playmobil to go for it, you’re up for canonization. And tell her happy birthday!
(Fagudgie. I’ve just offended the Pope and cannon crews. Wonder which is more dangerous?)
I’m not sure atheists can be canonized, but I appreciate the sentiment — and I’ll tell her tomorrow morning, since she’s (finally and blissfully) asleep. Heck of a day…
TWL
Speaking of which…do you have the widescreen DVD release which has the original ending
And what a dumb ending it was. Frankenstein defeats baragon (the poor man’s Godzilla) and the is attacked and dragged to his presumed doom by an octopus that appears out of nowhere. Mind you, there are many movies that could benefit from this sort of thing. Having the cast of Mama Mia suddenly dragged to the depths of the ocean by an octopus would definitely shake up today’s jaded viewers.
I happen to have one of the original Reynold Brown posters from FCTW. It’s amazing. The monster looks way better than he does in the movie (Brown often had little more than a title to work with). He holds a battleship in one hand, smashes a jet with the other, while stepping on a suspension bridge. Tanks, soldiers and Nick Adams shoot at him, to no avail. Baragon lurks in the background. Nothing remotely like this appears in the actual film. It’s great.
Sean: “I’ve just offended the Pope and cannon crews. Wonder which is more dangerous?”
Definitely the Pope. You know that scepter he’s got? It doubles as a laser gun.
” I think it’s too simplistic to say artists don’t intend to offend. They often do, either A-for the publicity, B-to get a reaction (laughter, mostly), C- as a way to stimulate discussion and D- to push the envelope, to break ground. Hershel Gordon Lewis was no dámņ good as a director but Blood Feast will forever have a place in cinema history.”
I wasn’t saying that no artist actually attempts to offend with their work. Some comedians are very clear about the fact that they mean to offend some sensibilities. However, the point was addressing was that I don’t believe that Smith’s Dogma was made to offend Catholics. I’m not even sure that The Golgothan was a deliberate attempt to offend either. That just came across to me as juvenile, but very funny, humor. Having seen Clerks and Mallrats before Dogma; I’m pretty sure I’m safe in saying that a lot of Smith’s comedy stylings fall under the very smart but incredibly juvenile heading. It’s one of the reasons that Dogma impressed me so much while Strikes Back seemed such a let down the first time I saw it. For me, Dogma was on a whole other level, a higher level, than his prior work and Strikes Back came off as a step backwards.
But, to underscore the point, look at Mel Brooks. Both The Producers and Blazing Saddles had to have moments in their creations where Mel thought to himself that some people, no matter his intent or how clearly he made the true target of his satire known both in the film and in later interviews, would have conniption fits over their own offended sensibilities. Despite the fact that he absolutely kicks raciest áššhølëš in the nads with Blazing Saddles the film has had its share of detractors who find its “racism” offensive. Despite the fact that he makes Hitler and the Nazis look like absolute morons and clowns there have been detractors of The Producers who have been offended at how it makes Nazis “lovable” and glorifies Hitler and his regime.
Hëll, even things he didn’t even think of bit him in the butt thanks to people who just had to be offended. Remember the flack he caught over Blazing Saddles’ character Mongo? He wrote it to have the line ”Mongo! Santa Maria!” in the film as a reference to Mongo Santamaria. He got attacked by people who said that he was insulting people with mental problems and that Mongo was meant to be a reference to mongoloid idiots.
Now, I’m sure that Brooks has written things with the intent of offending or grossing people put. Most comedy writers seem to do that at some point or another in their careers. But I seriously doubt that Brooks made either of those films with the intent to offend a number of the people who were offended (other than the neo Nazis in the world) by the films’ content. I’m certainly happy as hëll that he didn’t think about those people and not do what he did as well.
And isn’t it a sad commentary on where we’re at these days that Blazing Saddles, no matter how masterfully it squewered the same targets of the PC police, could likely never be made today as the film it was because the PC police wouldn’t get the subtext of the humor and would likely label the early drafts too offensive to greenlight?
“I’m not sure atheists can be canonized,”
Well, it depends on if we can find a cannon big enough to fire you from I guess. No nets for the landing though. Budget cuts. Sorry about that.
“Speaking of which…do you have the widescreen DVD release which has the original ending”
I don’t own it on DVD at all, but I’ve seen something like what you’re talking about on a TV broadcast of the film. I didn’t even know that it was the original ending. I just thought that’s how the film ended since I only ever saw it the one time. What’s the other ending like?
Well, the ending most of us grew up with was el-lame-o. Frankenstein defeats baragon amid the burning forest and then just stands there like a dumb lump as the ground sinks beneath him, apparently falling into a volcanic crevice. Totally anti-climactic. They might as well have ended it with him being hit by a truck.
A lot of low budget shlock movies have bad endings. endings that just sort of…end. It’s like they just ran out of money but that doesn’t make sense since most of these things are shot out of sequence. At the very least give me some coda–“He dabbled in things man was not meant to know.”; “I wonder…was he truly a monster? Or is civilization to blame?”; “See? That’s what happens when you play with acid.” Something, anything. I just gave 90 minutes of my life, I was willing to suspend belief, I didn’t even bìŧçh about the fact that The Beast With A Million Eyes only had 2, count ’em, 2 eyes…leave me with something more potent than The End, shows over, no refund.
Tim Lynch: Katherine turned 4 on Wednesday…
Luigi Novi: Happy Birthday to Katherine, Tim. 🙂 The older of my two nephews, Salvatore III, turned six on the 19th, though they had his party yesterday. I made one of my custom birthday cards for him, in which I depicted him as the Transformer that I got him as a present. (If you shoot me a Friend Request at MySpace, you can see it in my latest blog entry.) Here’s to kiddie birthdays! 😉
Oh yeah–Happy 4th Katherine. Soon you’ll be old enough to know what a bullet you dodged when your Dad considered “Mothra” as an actual name for his only child.
Actually, it’s hard to believe she’s 4. Good grief, how long have we been doing this???
Hi folks. Sorry for stirring Mike up there. Rose like spring trout, didn’t I?
Tim, Happy B-day, to your young’un. My little guy turned 1 last Feb, went absolutely haywire for three hours, then fell asleep in his cake.
As to artistic offense, art to one person is porono to another is blasphemy to a third. Robert Heinlein, I think it was in “Stranger in a Strange Land” basically said that the best way to avoid giving offense is, when you see the locals rubbing blue mud into their belly buttons, you start rubbing mud.
Does anyone remember “Lawrence of Arabia”, as Lawrence tries desperately to summon a belch at the end of a meal to avoid offending his hosts? Prime example of blue musd rubbing and when in Rome….
Tim, tell Katherine late happy birthday from the nutballs on my end of the blogroll.
“Actually, it’s hard to believe she’s 4. Good grief, how long have we been doing this???”
Try doing this from my end of the net. Time never seemed to move all that fast to me before. Now I have this little two foot plus tall mini me running around and growing out of his shoes ten minutes after we buy them to act as a daily clock reminder of the passage of time and how fast it’s zipping by.
It feels like just a few weeks ago we were sitting in the NICU holding a tiny, fragile little thing in our hands that didn’t even weigh in at a full five pounds. Now I’ve got a strong as an ox, just shy of 14 months old red headed speed demon chasing the cats around the house and testing his ability to flip chairs over. How did this happen? And how did it happen this fast?!?
How did this happen? And how did it happen this fast?!?
At least he will grow up and one day be self-sufficient.
In lieu of kids, my wife and I decided on having parakeets. Parakeets are, as with most pets, much like 1 year olds in that they’ll never be able to take care of themselves, but they’re always getting into trouble. 🙂
Craig, you had to do it. You…you…Craig you! You had to mention parakeets.
Now I’m going to spend the next three days coming up with a sketch of the Parakeet Paramilitary Paranormal Paracuting Paragons of Paris In Their Quest For a Good Parashoes.
That was supposed to be “paraCHUTING.” Maybe I’ve inhaled too much paradichlorobenzene.
Why don’t you try approaching an east Asian, pulling your eyelids, and seeing how well they take that? I don’t understand them not knowing you’re the person to confide there vulnerabilities to, but that way at least then you’ll know.
Mike… where should he do that?
In an East Asian country?
in Spain?
in the USA?
Because the response will be different in every case.
But the inference would be the same, that someone is portraying him or her as damaged. The main difference is that Americans and Spanish will deny that they’re being portrayed as damaged. This is something that isn’t intuitively pernicious without the immigrant experience.
For any other insult, there might be contention to the justification for the insult, but there would be no denial an insult had even taken place. With racism, the recipient isn’t even allowed his or her account that racism even exists. So they should scream racism.
The recipients of racism are either ghosts, or they aren’t ghosts. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t deny them their account of their own experiences, then complain they are disruptive. It’s like me here, with this forum that takes credit for nurturing free speech. If you’re going to deny my account of my experience, then I’ll take advantage of the privilege Peter provides to the public, speak as please, and wonder why you can’t live by your claim what I say has no impact whatsoever.
I recall reading somewhere that a German or Jewish group took offense to the portrayal of the German military in “Hogan’s Heroes” as ineffectual goofs, rather than as sneering evil villains.
Apparently, Leon Askin (General Burchalter), John Banner (Schuuuultz), and Werner Klemperer, all of whom fled Nazi persecution during WW II, wnated the Germans portrayed this way. Askin and Banner both lost family in concentration camps. I guess they felt portraying Nazi’s as inneffectual twitswas a form of therapy or revenge.
Well, the protesting group wanted what wasn’t provided as an option at the time. They wanted a more faithful account in a medium controlled by a minority of interests. Askin, Banner, and Klemperer were performers of the right temperament taking the only option available to them.
Did the show even mention Judaism or anti-Semitism? Why shouldn’t they have been pìššëd?
Tim: “Katherine turned 4 on Wednesday”
Happy Birthday Katherine.
Tim, the commercials for playmobil specifically say that butlers are not included.
———————
Jerry: “just don’t believe that knowing that something may be offensive to someone out there necessarily means that you’re intending to offend people.”
I hope that this misunderstanding has been resolved.
Jerry: “He simply doesn’t allow the ire of the few to control his entertaining the many.”
Exactly.
Jerry: “And anyone declaring that they should have just known anyhow is ignorant of just how different cultural taboos and certain gestures are from country to country”
I think in this specific case of the Spanish they could have thought of the possibility of offense without taking cultural understanding 101. But the fact that they didn’t doesn’t make they racist or offensive. It just mean that they didn’t think, weren’t sensitive enough. It happens in my country too. My sister was mortified when she heard the word ņìggër in an expression used by some people in the army. She tried to explain to them that it was inappropriate. But the problem was not that they were racist, just ignorant. Still, I think they should have the sense to know better.
————————
Bill Myers: “Yeah, Jerry, the thing is, when you kicked that government official from Saudi Arabia in the nuts… well, there’s no country out there where that *isn’t* considered a bad thing to do.”
I’m sure that somewhere out there there are people who enjoy being kicked in the nuts. If you want to meet them the safest way is to go out and randomly kick people in the nuts until you find someone who likes it. I don’t expect any problems.
————————–
Bill Mulligan: “I think part of the problem is that we often assume that being offensive is bad–it usually is but it may depend on the intent of the artist and the complicity of the viewer in the act (ie, if you voluntarily go to see Jáçkášš 2 you are intentionally going to see how far they go, and how much you can take. No point in getting all pruney around the lips and demanding you money back when they start drinking bull semen.)”
Yes! Comedy is a category in itself. Fr example. Carlin’s 7 words scetch depends on the fact that the audience does not find the words really offensive, but they are (a) consider them a little offensive, (b) enjoy mocking those who still consider them really offensive.
Jerry: “having seen Clerks and Mallrats before Dogma; I’m pretty sure I’m safe in saying that a lot of Smith’s comedy stylings fall under the very smart but incredibly juvenile heading”
Kevin Smith was just a test case here. But don’t you think that juvenile humor involves saying and doing things that the parents and adult society feel is a little inappropriate — testing boundaries.
——————-
Sean: “Okay, on to offense, some people will be offended by literally ANYTHING. “
True. But this doesn’t change the fact that you have to decide when you’re willing to offend someone and when not on a case by case basis.
I recall reading somewhere that a German or Jewish group took offense to the portrayal of the German military in “Hogan’s Heroes” as ineffectual goofs, rather than as sneering evil villains.
Apparently, Leon Askin (General Burchalter), John Banner (Schuuuultz), and Werner Klemperer, all of whom fled Nazi persecution during WW II, wnated the Germans portrayed this way. Askin and Banner both lost family in concentration camps. I guess they felt portraying Nazi’s as inneffectual twitswas a form of therapy or revenge.
—-
And Robert “LeBeau” Clary was in a camp.
David
And isn’t it a sad commentary on where we’re at these days that Blazing Saddles, no matter how masterfully it squewered the same targets of the PC police, could likely never be made today as the film it was because the PC police wouldn’t get the subtext of the humor and would likely label the early drafts too offensive to greenlight?
Absolutely.
Related story: several years ago when I was teaching in LA, the ninth graders always spent four days in the fall canoeing down the Colorado River. (Okay, three days — the first day was the bus ride there.) I was in charge of one of the buses, and there were usually movies on board the bus to keep everyone mollified for the 5+ hours we were going to be on board.
One year there happened to be “Blazing Saddles” on board. My colleague and I looked at each other and said, “Yeah. Got to. But we should probably say something first.”
So we did — gave a little disclaimer about how the film was made a quarter-century earlier and how some of the language was now considered particularly inappropriate, but that they should note that anyone using that term was either (a) a bad guy, (b) an idiot, or (c) both.
No problems ensued, except for the squealing during the campfire scene.
Oh yeah–Happy 4th Katherine. Soon you’ll be old enough to know what a bullet you dodged when your Dad considered “Mothra” as an actual name for his only child.
Actually, so far … she might have gone for it. She’s not quite that weird YET, but I can see her going in that direction. She already knows how to say “Are you the brain specialist?” in perfect Python Gumby, so I figure I’m fulfilling my parental duties.
(Actually, sometime last week she had on a fake cellphone headpiece, and Lisa had her walk into the living room, arms out, saying “Delete, Delete, Delete…” They’re so taking her away from us.)
Thanks to all for the kind wishes — I’ll tell her!
Tim, the commercials for playmobil specifically say that butlers are not included.
Great. This ONCE, truth in advertising…
TWL
Did you refuse to go see Borat or something? He included the PC police in his ridicule, and they weren’t able to sink that. And now you have Hamlet 2. The tradition of satire isn’t starving.
Now I’m going to spend the next three days coming up with a sketch of the Parakeet Paramilitary Paranormal Paracuting Paragons of Paris In Their Quest For a Good Parashoes.
It’s only Monday, so take your time. 🙂
“The tradition of satire isn’t starving.”
It is when you are writing.
Seriously, d00d.
Thank you for your sharing your difficulty of satirizing what I say.
I also have difficulty sanitizing what you say.
Leaving behind Ferrous Cranus and his latest try at derailing another thread for a moment…
This news on the actual topic just hit my inbox.
President Dmitry Medvedev says Russia recognises the independence of Georgia’s breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
For more details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
Leaving behind Ferrous Cranus and his latest try at derailing another thread for a moment…
This news on the actual topic just hit my inbox.
President Dmitry Medvedev says Russia recognises the independence of Georgia’s breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
I know. You’d think Alan would know common sense or something I’ve already said already covers his persistent antagonisms.
…which isn’t as troubling as your inability to articulate or justify the intolerance you refer to.
Russia’s latest move puts us in something of a philosophical bind. We are a nation formed through an act of rebellion against England, one that was aided by England’s enemy, France. If South Ossetia and Abkhazia want independence from Georgia, and Russia wants to help, on the surface it seems hypocritical of us to cry foul.
Unfortunately, I don’t think Russia’s interest in these breakaway republics is purely altruistic. I think you’d have to be blind not to see that Russia is trying to rebuild its empire.
I’ve heard varying opinions from experts about our ability to influence the situation. Some believe that with our forces overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, we’ve got nothing, not even a pair of deuces.
Others believe that Russia’s current leaders have a plutocratic streak and are quite addicted to the wealth they can only accumulate if they engage economically with the West. Cutting them off from that money pot might change their minds, according to that line of thinking.
I remember telling people that it was premature to talk about how to spend the “peace dividend” because Russia and some of its former satellites still had nukes. People scoffed at my cynicism. Go figure.
Russia has oil. Withholding economic means from Russia might quickly lead to even higher oil prices.
What’s a mother to do?
Others believe that Russia’s current leaders have a plutocratic streak and are quite addicted to the wealth they can only accumulate if they engage economically with the West. Cutting them off from that money pot might change their minds, according to that line of thinking.
Russia is an exporter of oil and natural gas. I refuse to believe that anyone is going to convince enough of the world to stop engaging them economically. If somebody comes up with a magic spell that transforms carbon dioxide and soot back into light sweet crude (or some other pie in the sky solution), the Russia economy will fall in the exact manner that a Vogan Construction Ship doesn’t. Until that day, I think the Russians are appropriately confident that they aren’t going to be totally isolated in the world
I remember telling people that it was premature to talk about how to spend the “peace dividend” because Russia and some of its former satellites still had nukes. People scoffed at my cynicism. Go figure.
Yeah. I think we used that “peace dividend” as collateral on the credibility loan we took out with our invasions of Iraq and Afganistan. I think it was consumed a while before the Political Capital “Windfall” of the 911 attacks went up in smoke.
David Hunt: “Russia is an exporter of oil and natural gas. I refuse to believe that anyone is going to convince enough of the world to stop engaging them economically.”
Russia was sitting on oil and natural gas before the cold war ended and they country wasn’t as wealthy then as it is now. I think a lot of the Western World — particularly Western Europe — could be motivated to curtail doing business with Russia if they feel threatened. For us, Russia is a continent away. For Western Europe, the problem is a bit closer to home.
David Hunt: “Until that day, I think the Russians are appropriately confident that they aren’t going to be totally isolated in the world.”
The Russians weren’t totally isolated during the cold war, but that didn’t prevent the Soviet Union from collapsing. Partial isolation can still sting. I don’t know whether that’s enough to deter this most recent wave of Russian aggression, but I wouldn’t dismiss out of hand the impact we could have on them. Nor would I dismiss the galvanizing effect Russia’s actions could have on NATO countries — many of whom have good reason to be concerned about Russia upsetting the European apple cart.
David Hunt: “Yeah. I think we used that “peace dividend” as collateral on the credibility loan we took out with our invasions of Iraq and Afganistan. I think it was consumed a while before the Political Capital “Windfall” of the 911 attacks went up in smoke.”
Actually, I don’t think there ever *was* a “peace dividend.” I believe it was a fiction from the get-go. Many people believed the fall of the Soviet Union meant the end of all problems in Eastern Europe. But the collapse of the Soviet Union didn’t erase ambition from the hearts of the Russian power elite, nor did it erase centuries of ethnic tensions. Hëll, the Soviet Union was what kept those tensions under wraps for the better part of a century.
We may have “won” the “cold war” but as is so often the case we lost the peace. So much for Ronald Reagan as the Savior of the Western World. The illusion of his victory was short-lived, I fear.
Nor would I dismiss the galvanizing effect Russia’s actions could have on NATO countries — many of whom have good reason to be concerned about Russia upsetting the European apple cart.
I don’t think it’s just the European apple cart we’d have to worry about, but the world-wide cart. Already, North Korea is saying they’re going to stop dismantling the nuclear reactor, and I thought there was something a few days ago about Iran as well.
The illusion of his victory was short-lived, I fear.
Indeed, and I don’t think many want to admit this (regardless of their political affiliation).
Putin is running that country like a true Soviet dictator. Being that he’s former KGB, this doesn’t surprise me in the least. He’s Prime Minister in name only; he’s not only still President, but he’s President of what now appears to be an effort to rebuild the USSR, Cold War and all.
There are many factors…
Back in 92 when Georgia became independent, still without a proper army and relying in the old soviet republic structures, they found two territories revolting and declaring independence. Right now it might seem S.Ossetia and Abjazia are ethnically different territories struggling for independence, but back then it was mostly a matter of russians (arrived to administrate minery, industry and tourism infraestructure) saying they wouldnt acept a georgian ruling them. So they cleansed their territories from georgians, with the help of russian weapons and claimed independence since, well, how can this be part of Georgia if there are no georgians in sight?
Putin has been giving russian pasports to Ossetians and Abjazians for years, and now it is clear why; to articulate a right of military response against these two rogue territories. This is not independence, this is a de-facto annexation.
I said it before… during the cold war, the URSS never felt so confident as to invade turkey or Finland, two countries from wich the USA spied and maneuvered against them. Yet now they dare to invade a country in wich US troops were a few weeks ago. They even captured the equipment that was waiting in a port to be embarked back to the USA (a few humvees and electronic equipment, but still property of the US military).
Whats the message? So far the matter of Georgia (and probably Ukraine)joining NATO has stopped to be an “if” to become a “when”. Because Russia has changed the rules of the game. There are no diplomatic umbrellas any more. Is the USA able to stretch out more and deploy troops or pay for an army uphaul on those countries? Is teh USa prepared to compensate Poland and the Checz Republic for the fuel embargo Russia is threatening them with (because of the missile shield embroglio). And if it is…where will that money come from? your pockets.
Ask yourselves… was a very expensive missile program that strategically cripples Russia but nominally defends the USA from an hypotetical missile attack from IRAN (as if) worth all the trouble?
On the other hand… Putin is not rebuilding the URSS but rather the old Tzarist Empire. Have you noticed the russians started to use the old zarist shield in their flag? The russian prime minister gave all his speeches regarding Georgia on a desk with the double headed white eagle, with another one behind him. The new russia is full of pan-slavic crap. While in the URSS a non slavic citizen could get far within the sistem, right now there are many ciizens of Russia that would risk a beating or death if walking alone in Moscow at night, just because their eyes, hair or languaje are too eastern.