So the Georgia women’s beach volleyball team beat the Russian women’s beach volleyball team. And all i could think was, wouldn’t it have been interesting if the leaders of the respective countries (whose names I’m too lazy to spell) had staked the resolution of their disputes on the outcome.
In fact, even better: rather than rolling in tanks and blowing up terrified citizens, have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring. Settle this BS like men.
PAD
• 
Does anyone else remember an advertisement that ran in the 60s that was based on this very premise–it had Uncle Sam and some big burly Russian looking guy actually slugging it out. The tag line was something like “Wouldn’t it be great if all disputes were settled this way?” which I, wee broth of a lad as I was, didn’t really agree with since it would simply mean that people would elect folks like Richard Bumgartner president and he had already done enough harm to the entire 2nd grade without giving him actual geopolitical power, thank you very much.
This also ran about the same time as two other ads that have burned into my brain: Abe Lincoln goes to some seedy employment agency for a job but is deemed unusable. “There you go” the narrator intones, “Another intelligent human being but no college credit to prove it.”
I assume this was for some kind of college equivalence thing but I don’t remember. I only recall thinking what a dámņ shame it was, especially if we were to adopt the suggestion of ad #1, since Lincoln was an accomplished wrestler and could probably even hold his own against the president of Samoa.
The other ad was a science fiction scene where an android carries a box around that contains a human head. The head begins to spout mathematical equations while the narrator–possibly the same narrator in all 3 ads–talks about how we have to focus on physical education or, presumably, we will end up as heads in boxes as our limbs atrophy from lack of use (and we get our nonexistent áššëš kicked the next time we have an argument with the Samoans. The last line was the head plaintively calling for his droid: “I’m ready to go Z-12. I am finished. I would like to go.”
Frankly it’s a miracle any kid got out of the 60s without the need for massive therapy.
In fact, even better: rather than rolling in tanks and blowing up terrified citizens, have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring. Settle this BS like men.
I would actually watch the Olympics to see that.
Would the current president of Russia actually play, or would Putin sub himself in? And I suspect the line judge would catch a lot of crap because apparently neither side is very good at respecting boundaries.
wanna see a fight? Youtube it. Frankie Goes to Hollywood’s Two tribes
This would be even more symbolic if not for the fact that the Georgian team is actually a Brazilian team hired and given Georgian citizenship (although they still live and train in Brazil).
I have been enjoying the games and have been sucked like many here.
I just hope Spain’s Basketball team get their…shoes…handed to them.
sucked in that is.
Why the spanish team? oh wait… we defeated you on the last World championship, uh? well, usual winners make sore losers 😉
Someone got in a “Two Tribes” ref before me. Yah #*%#$%*&^%!!!!!!
Actually, we should just replace war with a series of events to deal with every level of the post-victory chest thumping that goes on.
The first level of compatition is pretty cool, but I’ll save its explanation for last.
The generals should have a Chess tournament elimination series. Each side puts five generals up for the series and the matches are assigned by random drawings. If you lose, you’re eliminated from the series. The tournament continues until one side no longer has any generals. This would handle the “we’re smarter/better strategists than you” aspect of it.
The next level of competition would be the “we have the best fighters” phase. We hold a four week long tournament were soldiers compete in MMA events. Each side enters 100 soldiers, the weight classes are sorted and the matches are assigned by random drawings. The basic rules are the same as the chess tournament. When you lose you’re out of the competition. The first team with no fighters left is the losing team.
Now, MMA tournaments can be hard on the body and you need take a bit of a break in there so the four weeks of MMA will have a one week break in the middle of it. This one week break would be used to handle the “our gals are better than yours” phase and feature a week long oil wrestling tournament. Hey, there’s no reason war has to be ugly.
The “our boys back on the home front” phase would have to feature displays of ingenuity and the ”can do” spirit of the home front. Two weeks of Junkyard Wars on a global level. 100 regular people VS 100 regular people in a two week bash up in the junkyard!!!
While Junkyard Wars is fun, you’d also have to have the whole thing about being self sufficient and making do with what you have in better ways to stretch it out longer. To that end we’d have to have some sort of “Victory Garden phase” thing going on and seeing who can do the best job of stretching and renewing resources. It would be boring to watch so we should probably only make it a competition between two teams of 30 and run it through the entire “war” as ongoing little updates and fillers for fights that end in a first round KO or something.
But we don’t run them during the oil wrestling. Highlight reels from that competition are just fine as fillers for that week.
You also have to deal with the pure luck aspect of it. For that we have the one day coin toss tournament. It would be a 50 players VS 50 players deal with the same elimination rules as the above tournaments.
Now the explanation for how the first contest of the event is played. This is the “he quit first” phase of the game. The leader of each warring nation is hooked up to a Taser. Each leader gets ten full five second rides on the thing every 30 seconds. After those ten rides they’re asked if they want to quit or not. If they both say no they get fifteen rides every 30 seconds. They then get asked again and so on with each new round upping the rides by five.
I figure it would be a nice change of pace to see the leaders of this stupidity get the most pain out of the deal. The winning side, if the leaders even want to go through the first event, is the side that wins four events.
The other option is that we let all of are game geeks fight a massive virtual war on either the PS3 or the Xbox 360 networks. They could maybe just round up the “casualties” and take them someplace to be quietly disposed of so as to save the civilization as a whole. Can’t imagine how that could lead to bigger problems down the road. Well, at least so long as they don’t park anyone in the wrong orbital position.
I’m not feeling very kindly toward the Spanish basketball team either.
I would like to be the first one to nominate Jerry as our next UN ambassador. Everyone agrees that the organization could use a shaking up, and his ideas seem to fit the bill perfectly!
TWL
For why I am not a fan of Spain’s basketball team this year google the words: Spain basketball team-photo and poor taste.
Oh … and yeah, from what I’ve read about it the Spanish BB team is somewhat in need of a (metaphorical) butt-kicking. Still, I can think of a ton of ways in which it could’ve been a lot WORSE…
TWL
Well, their excuses aren’t helping….(guys, when in a hole, stop digging!)
I just have this mental picture of George Bush sitting down to play chess. Not only would we not win a game, but we’d probably wake up a few days later to discover that we’d lost 25 states, Disneyworld and the Empire State Building to various world governments.
Another time that Russian tanks rolled – 1956 – resulted in blood in the water in the water polo match between Russia and Hungary at the Melbourne Olympics.
In fact, even better: rather than rolling in tanks and blowing up terrified citizens, have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring. Settle this BS like men.
Based on news reports that I’ve read, those two guys hate each other enough to straight to Thunderdome. “Two men enter…” Well, you get the idea.
p.s. I’m talking about Putin and the Georgian President. News reports make it obvious that Putin is still the guy with all the power and President M******* is just a figurehead. I think Colbert put it best. “President Vladimir Putin has stepped down and surrendered ultimate power in Russia to Prime Minister Vladamir Putin.”
Pretty much figured that was it…
Believe it or not, no one in Spain would thake that gesture as an insult. Childish? yes. Insulting? No. Maybe it has to do with Spain no having had anything like “black face” comedy. Maybe it is simply spanish humour (I’ve found the same stories that make us laugh cause much different reaction before an international audience…).
Then, why havent they simply excused? Well, they did. But instead of simply saying “I’m sorry if anybody thought or took it the wrong way and thought that it was offensive” like Gasol did, they also pointed out since it was a picture produced in and for a spanish context, it can only be judged (by reason of intent) by that culture standarts.
No one in spain raised an eyebrow at this photo. Not the spaniards nor the numerous chinese community living here. It was british tabloids the ones who made the photo an international issue by bringing it to the spotlight now… more than a month after the ad campaign finished.
The same brtish newspapers who play the hate card whenever an international match is near. Real Hate, real intentional slurs against whoever is not british. Yet they figure their pedestal high enough to pass judgement. So I think I speak for most spaniards when I say to the chinese people that might have felt offended (and Ive read comments by many that arent and who point to the same double standarts I wrote about here)….Sorry, it was not meant to be offensive.
To the rest, who seem to think the world ends in the backyard… go get intimate with a fish. Yes, thats spanish humour. Dont get it? maybe you need to know a bit about a culture before passing a judgement on why they laugh.
By the Way… I enjoyed very much Fawlty Towers and didnt feel the least offended by Manuel, the waiter. But then I know many spaniards who would feel offended. All are morons.
To anyone wishing to see the spanish team beaten by the US for the right reasons… lets hope the match is at least as fun as the last one.
Im glad they dont settle this on the vollyball court.
Can you imagine fat hairy Russion guys in those little speedos?
Im going to bleach my eyes now.
You’re still digging.
The world DOESN’T end in your backyard.
wouldn’t it have been interesting if the leaders of the respective countries (whose names I’m too lazy to spell) had staked the resolution of their disputes on the outcome.
The Native Americans beat ya to it several hundred years ago: Lacrosse! 🙂
have the Russian and Georgia presidents square off in the wrestling ring.
Ok, that beats lacrosse, as long as it’s like MMA and not WWE. 🙂
If you willingly refuse to take context into consideration, you are not a victim of slur, you just want to act offended. Because intent its all that matter.
A few weeks ago I was watching a humour show in the TV with some friends and one of the actors had its face painted black (well, brown). It was a sketch paroding 80s TV and he was playing Tubbs from Miami Vice. I commented to my friends that this would be impossible in the USA, or at least very controversial and they didnt understand why. To make them understand the reason, I had to explain what Black Face means and how it was used in the USA… still, they didnt fully get it. Because they lacked context.
Ive been reading about the damm photo controversy all day and every comentator (brits, american, australian…) insisted on analyzing the issue by their countries standarts. There it would be offensive and malicious, therefor it must be like that everywhere.
When you say “you’re still digging” what you really say is “stick to my standarts”.
That’s very generous of the Spanish to deny they’ve insulted anyone because they aren’t the subjects of the ridicule they issue.
Is it too much to ask an Olympics host to accept a public gesture demonstrating their people aren’t welcome in Spain? What is up with that?
You mean like how the Spanish Armada intended to catch all those cannonballs the British navy fired at them? Why didn’t the Spanish Armada just intend to return home?
Actually, this post for some reason made me think of Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Better, it took me about two seconds on YouTube to find the video of the song! Woo woo!
Gah, and I wasn’t even the SECOND person to make the Two Tribes joke. *weeps* Oh, well. 😉
A few weeks ago I was watching a humour show in the TV with some friends and one of the actors had its face painted black (well, brown). It was a sketch paroding 80s TV and he was playing Tubbs from Miami Vice. I commented to my friends that this would be impossible in the USA, or at least very controversial and they didnt understand why.
Actually, Robert Downey, Junior is basically doing blackface in the new film “Tropic Thunder,” and there is far more controversy regarding the casual use of the word “retard” in referring to the mentally handicapped than there is about Downey’s performance.
PAD
But then in Tropic Thunder, Downey Jr. is not doing Black Face, but portraying an actor so sel f absorved that he doesnt realize he is doing Black Face.
Btw, since no one has mentioned it yet, to continue your 7th season West Wing analogy for this election cycle, we now have Russia sending troops into a breakaway republic and the United States sending troops over (just for humanitarian purposes, I believe).
That was some seriously wacky crystal ball the producers had that season…
But then in Tropic Thunder, Downey Jr. is not doing Black Face, but portraying an actor so sel f absorved that he doesnt realize he is doing Black Face.
The movie is still a parody of Hollywood.
What was done by the Spanish basketball team wasn’t a parody or something involving history (even if it’s despicable bit of history).
When you say “you’re still digging” what you really say is “stick to my standarts”.
A standard that the rest of the civilized world tries to apply to what is obviously viewed as a racial slur.
Maybe your countrymen cannot see it because there is no comparable slur against your own people? I don’t know. But the players should’ve realized how bad this looks, and the company behind the photo should’ve realized it as well.
Let’s try and do a comparison. What do you think of the Chinese and the fact that they’ve used CGI in the Opening Ceremonies because it looked better? Or that they used a girl to lip-synch singing because the actual singer wasn’t pretty enough?
To the Chinese, what’s important is simply the image they project and dámņ what the rest of the world thinks. So apparently we should all shut up, right? Never mind that they lied to us, or that it sets a horrible precedent, etc etc.
But then, it’s not a “standard that the rest of the civilized world tries to apply”. Yesterday the spanish team beat germany and the chinese crowd cheered. And I’ve read many comments on this issue from asians outside the USA who dont find the gesture offensive, precisely because of the lack of intent. Maybe it’s a cultural thing, but in many places, the offense comes from the perceived ill will a gesture or word carries, not the word or gesture itself. In the USA that slant-eyes gesture might have been used to ridiculize asian inmigrants. In Spain it hasnt. Here it is simply a goofy gesture children do. No one here objeted to the ad, that ran in a daily newspaper for weeks with a million copies sold every day. And we do have a numerous and active chinese community that has voiced its concerns whenever the portrayal of china and the chinese offended them. They didnt object the ad, neither the chinese company that sponsors the spanish team. But hey! if the americans say its offensive, it must be.
And there are comparable slurs against spaniards. We’ve been until 30+ years ago a country of emigrants, pretty much despised by other european countries because… well, because we were poorer, shorter, hairier… There were signs saying “No Dogs or spaniards allowed” in many british pubs, french said “Africa begins in the Pirinees” and so recently as in the early nineties, spanish students could get beaten in england just because.
That was offensive, because that people was actually trying to offend. On the other hand, I was to LA when I was a teen for some weeks. I remember beign asked things like “¿Have you ever seen an elevator?” or “¿Do your parents own a donkey?” by well meant but ignorant people. Were they beign offensive? No, because there was no intent. On the other hand, I am myself half roma (gipsy) so my mother taught me to tell whats racism from whats simply a faux pass from a very early age.
Regarding the Chinese play back incident… the problem arises because they didnt took into account the implications that act has before an international audience. It was a goverment imposition to the ceremony musical director the kind the chinese society swallows on a daily basis, but they also find the playback regretable, they simply live in a dictatorship. I find the whole thing sad for the poor singer, but then… Did Audrey Hepburn sang in “My Fair Lady”? Did Glenn Close sing in “Meeting Venus”? I know many who thought they did. Were they lied to?
This I just read… The Chinese ambassador says “ese gesto no lo entendemos como una ofensa”… meaning “We dont understand that gesture as offensive”.
Of course, comentators in american and british media dont give a damm what the chinese think when they are bent in their crusade to protect them. Harvey Araton of The New York Times demands punishment because he says the spanish team was “laughing at the chinese physical features” even if the chinese dont feel offended.
I honestly am bewildered by the idea that the lip-synching little girl opening ceremonies issue is a “terrible precedent”. No one was hurt. Oh, sure, it was sort of superficial and lame – I mean, uh, China has more than a billion people and they couldn’t find a cute girl who COULD sing?! – but how is it a terrible precedent? The Olympics are entertainment. They’re spectacle.
I mean, if you want terrible precedents, I’m way more concerned about, y’know, what Russia and Georgia are doing. Or the US saber rattling at Russia. Lip-synching girls at a sporting event? Doesn’t rate high on my terrible-o-meter, I fear.
the sequence was like this:
The did a casting looking for child voices and selected the best one. The girl is not ugly but she has bad teeth and is chubby… normal infant chubby.
During the last essay, with the presence of goverment officials, some of those complained that the girl wasnt pretty enough and ordered her to be changed… I think this was like a day or two before the ceremony took place.
So they choosed the cutest girl they could find (Ive heard she was already in othe rpart of the ceremony or that she is an acomplished advertising model, choose the version you prefer) and did a lip sync… not because the chinese people are specially swallow or fraudulent… after all the artistic direction of the show had shown they were not narrow minded by choosing talent over looks. But they live in a country in wich making a goverment official angry can mean a a lot.
The international press made a big fuss (and I kinda agree) but most overlooked the defining notion; the chinese artist went and casted talent over beauty and it was a narrow minded politician who wasnt brave enough to follow that path.
regarding Georgia and Russia…
…do you realize that there were american troops in Georgia until a month ago? Russia has done what the Soviet union never dared to do during the Cold War… they have invaded an ally of the USA. Of course, back then they financed and trained guerrillas. But a frontal assault?
Its scary and exciting at the same time, but then I am a news junkie.
I honestly am bewildered by the idea that the lip-synching little girl opening ceremonies issue is a “terrible precedent”.
Well, I’m not talking about Russia’s stupidity, I’m talking about the Olympics.
In the spirit of the Olympics, this whole thing has been a shame from beginning to its eventual end. The IOC, for all their claims about not wanting to be involved in politics, and China are treating everybody as puppets that they can toy with, and it’s a complete joke.
China is hiding what they really are: a repressive regime that can treat their citizens terribly, far worse than anything we have to complain about. The IOC just goes right along with it, trying to make all the troubles go away. And they’re pìššìņg down the drain everything that the Olympics are supposed to be about.
So, yes, IMO, these things, as small as they are, are indeed black marks both against China and against the Games themselves. If you want to show us your image, do so without lying to the world, trying to hide your problems, and then blow off the reasons why as if its no big deal. Because after doing those kinds of things, you’re not going to be projecting the image you intended, but something else entirely.
Although, maybe in 4 years London can just have us sit in theatres and we can watch the Opening Ceremonies like a big action movie with even more CGI fireworks and so on rather than deal with another NBC blackout. 😉
Of course, comentators in american and british media dont give a damm what the chinese think when they are bent in their crusade to protect them.
Yeah, we’re doing a helluva job protecting the Chinese when our media is doing things like exposing the Chinese gymnasts as under-age and thus should never have been competing in the first place. Nobody is protecting the Chinese.
You don’t like that the rest of the world is upset, we get that. But I don’t think you’re going to win any battles by dismissing this as if it’s some vendetta against you on our part, or that we’re forcing the world to conform to ‘our standard’.
You say there are comparable slurs for Spaniards, yet you don’t seem to care that this is considered a slur by many around the world. If you don’t like the slurs you mentioned being used, isn’t it just a little bit reasonable to see why other slurs are upsetting to other people?
Craig,
Well, the Olympic Committee has always been used by tyrannical regimes to whitewash their tyranny. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union sort of leap to mind of other instances that the IOC has gotten into bed with obviously filthy regimes and ignored what the Olympics are “supposed to be about”.
I, myself, am not terribly impressed with the Olympics, tho’. I sort of see them as a tool of Western cultural imperialism. Almost all the sports are Western in origin, and I am, myself, I mean, not offended, but I look with chagrin at idea that the Olympics are this great international event that transcends cultures, because the Olympics are very rooted in the cultural ideals of the Western sports tradition. (The Winter Olympics are even worse.) Given the extent to which I see the Olympics as an act of cultural imperialism, I feel that they have always been political, even conceptually. It has long felt to me like the Olympics allows the rest of the world to compete on terms dictated by the West, and the whole global unity thing that the Olympics represents is simply cultural imperialism. It normalizes athletic activity according to an almost completely Western paradigm. I suppose if a person feels the Olympics stands for something else they’d come to different conclusions about the politicity of the Olympics. But I think that China’s manipulation of the Olympics is no different than the Olympics normalization of athleticism according to Western standards.
I think politicity is a neologism, but I kinna like it. 😉
El hombre Malo: “…do you realize that there were american troops in Georgia until a month ago? Russia has done what the Soviet union never dared to do during the Cold War… they have invaded an ally of the USA. Of course, back then they financed and trained guerrillas. But a frontal assault?”
The weird thing about that is that Georgia is directly on the border of Russia, yet we had our military there.
How would we feel if Russia had soldiers in Cuba training their military and Russia was selling them weapons?
We’ve been arming a direct neighbor of Russia. I’m not saying that justifies Russia in attacking Georgia, but it certainly makes things more complicated for them, doesn’t it?
Does the intent of the artist then dictate what you find beautiful? Is all art great to you, because of the intents of the artists? Is disagreeing with the artist not tolerated in your culture, because intent comes first?
That’s the representative of a homogenous culture addressing the ridicule from another homogenous culture. I think that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean the account from those who experience a diverse culture are wrong, like you are saying.
Has anybody here got a hug for Mike?
Chris Bradley: ” I sort of see them as a tool of Western cultural imperialism. Almost all the sports are Western in origin, and I am, myself, I mean, not offended, but I look with chagrin at idea that the Olympics are this great international event that transcends cultures, because the Olympics are very rooted in the cultural ideals of the Western sports tradition.”
You have got to be joking…
Back in the cold war the USA had many allies bordering the URSS… Turkey, Persia (with the Sha, after the coup) or Finland come to mind… The USA had planes flying out Turkey and into the URSS on a regular basis. Yet, the URSS never felt confident or cocky enough to exert direct force against anyone under the USA’s umbrella.
Either you are weaker or they are stronger. Or maybe its both. But as I said, it makes things scarier and more interesting.
Mike: “Does the intent of the artist then dictate what you find beautiful? Is all art great to you, because of the intents of the artists? Is disagreeing with the artist not tolerated in your culture, because intent comes first?”
That analogy has little to do with the matter at hand but lets awnser… intent, in an artistic work, has its value. If a monkey playing with crayons create a beautiful pattern, you can talk of beauty but not of art. But if an artist intends to make something beautiful, he can fail or suceed, no matter what the intent was. But intent is much more worth of notice when you consider meaning in a work of art and not merely aesthetical pleasure. And that analogy is more like it.
If Artist A, from Korea, depicts in an elaborate way how his mother used to raise, kill, chop and cook a delicious dog… when his piece is shown to a western audience many would feel offended, revolted and perhaps even hostile to the artist, his mother and the entire Korean nation, disregarding context as a valid factor in the appreciation of art.
If Artist B from Italy creates a work based on a serie of people defecating on a Bible/Koran/Torah, he is beign offensive in a deliberate way, there is an intent because that offense is insid ethe meaning of the work of art. Christians/muslims/jews would feel ofended because thats what the artist seeks.
(I know, religion and dog-loving are not the same, but you’d be surprised…and its 2.30am and I just came from watching TDK…awesome btw)
So no, Mike, intent doesnt matter regarding beauty, but it does regarding meaning.
To describe both the chinese or the spanish as “homogenous” show how little you know. 4 languages are spoken in Spain, one of them not even in the indoeuropean family, and as I told you, I am half roma. In China, they speak dozens if not hundreds of languages and dialects, most people not even speaking the official one. In China you have modern urban sprawls like Shangay and entire regions of people living in neolitic conditions, virtually isolated from the rest of the country. But yes, we are the homogenous…
Xraig: “You say there are comparable slurs for Spaniards, yet you don’t seem to care that this is considered a slur by many around the world. If you don’t like the slurs you mentioned being used, isn’t it just a little bit reasonable to see why other slurs are upsetting to other people?”
The slurs I mentioned carried the meaning that spaniards were inferior. Maybe the slan-eyes gesture carries the same meaning in the USA towards asian, but not here. Nor in China, it seems.
Why is affection an anathema to you, Alan, that using it as the basis of ridicule is second-nature to you?
In our literature, Calypso could have held off the entire pantheon of gods if only Odysseus had reciprocated her love. You kids like to think you can do better without affection, but if you open yourself to the wisdom of not putting your own life above everything, your imagination will grow larger than a deck of cards you only spend time looking for opportunities to play. The rest of your youth is too valuable to waste like that, Alan.
Then why can’t the photo have simply failed, and have offended those who’ve claimed it’s done so?
Both countries have a history of tolerating communist and fascist governments. It’s fair for a a member of a republic to refer to them as homogeneous.
… when was the goverment of Spain Communist? and no, dont tell me about the presence of communists (among many others, like christian democrats or the Liberal Party) in the Republic goverment during the Civil War because A- that was an elected goverment and not a “dictature of the proletariat” and B- their presence was strengthened since Soviet russia was the only country who sent help to the democratically elected goverment, unlike western democracies, theorically more akin to Azaña’s goverment.
And for “tolerating” fascism… Fascism was imposed after a civil war. What the fascist thought would be a militar parade turned into a three years civil war that involved Germany, Italy and Russia. Madrid held for two and a half years under siege, bombardment and famine. Thats giving up easy, uh? During and after the war Spain lost 2 million of it’s ten million population, death or exiled. Those exiled massively fought fascism on both fronts, well over 150.000 civil war veterans fought against Hitler on the Allied and Russian armies, others stayed in occupied France and formed the core of the resistance. Many fought under the assumption that Franco was the next to go down after Mussolini and Hitler… Roosevelt said so, but Truman never honoured his words.
After WWII many of those exiled, veterans from two wars against fascism, returned to Spain to fight again, as the maquis, a guerrilla. But then Franco became an ally in the war against communism and Eisenhower visited Madrid, paraded with the dictator and gave him help. Military help, mostly,in exchange for Military bases. And people went to jail and were sentenced to death every year precisely for not tolerating fascism.
The fascists wanted an homogenous society and were ready to kill whoever they needed to get it…hence, Spain musnt be so homogenous after all. In the last elections, 10 different political parties obtained seats in congress. I know the comparison isn’t accurate but… how many parties do your congress represent?
You obviosuly know little about Spain, and thats ok, but you show an strange contempt. Or maybe I am confusing ignorance with intent.
If anyone would now the basis…, well, never mind.
Thank you for confirming it’s a wonder you felt the need to challenge what I say, Alan. You feel free to start staring contests you can’t win any ol’ time.
Spain never had to be communist for what I said to be true.
I used the word appropriately.
Spain is 89% eyelid-pulling Spanish, 11% non-Spanish. That’s 89% of the population denying the account, what, ½-1% Asians? What do you want me to think that I’m not thinking?
Oh, my bad…you were actually complimenting spaniards and chinese for our… endurance.
And last time our homogenous condition had to do with politics. Now with our… race? national identity?
Basically you are saying that since there is less racial diversity in Spain than in your country, we are not “ready” to judge wether our humour is offensive… while what I say is that for a gesture to be offensive, there must be an intention to offend or mock. There is no such thing as a quintaesentially offensive gesture or word… everything depends on context and intention. The same gesture a japanese girl use when she smiles for a photo is considered rude and insulting in UK. The horns heavy rock fans do with their hands when head banging is considered a big offense for italians. Last year I read a poll that said a sizeable percentage of ammericans felt violented and offended whenever they heard someone speaking a foreign language… And I am sure the same languages wouldnt provoke such reactions in any other place. So you see, context is not something that conditions the message, it is part of the message.
This notion, that its in the first chapter of every book Ive read on communication, is beign actively dismissed in this case by most commentators. The context, they insist, doesnt matter… then they proceed to apply their own context to the image.
Jerry,
Oh, yeah, I was totally joking about the cultural imperialism of the Olympics. The fact is that sports done by Westerners are just better than sports done by other people, which is why they dominate the Olympic Games! Western fencing is just better than Asian forms of swordsmanship, or African, or whatever, obviously. 😉
El hombre Malo: Then, why havent they simply excused? Well, they did. But instead of simply saying “I’m sorry if anybody thought or took it the wrong way and thought that it was offensive” like Gasol did, they also pointed out since it was a picture produced in and for a spanish context, it can only be judged (by reason of intent) by that culture standarts.
Luigi Novi: Why assume that all Spaniards speak or react with one voice, or for that matter, that how others may react to it is not relevant? We live in a global community now, and I think it’s naïve to think that such a photo would not be circulated internationally. I also think that if there are some people who see such gestures as offensive because they smack of appeals to stereotypes, I would hardly dismiss that out of hand. Why does it not occur to you the possibility that some are sensitized to the ideas expressed or evoked in such images, and that some are not? Should only those not sensitized to them dictate whether it is offensive for everyone? Should only those sensitized to them do so? Isn’t there room for both considerations?
And what does pulling on your eyes in order to mimic the look of Asians have to do with Spanish culture?
El hombre Malo: If you willingly refuse to take context into consideration, you are not a victim of slur, you just want to act offended. Because intent its all that matter.
Luigi Novi: No, intent is not all that matters, intent is only one half of the equation. The other half is the possibility that the person on the other end may find the idea offensive or hurtful. Saying that intent is all that matters tends to be a self-serving argument on the part of the communicator, and only because that person is not sensitized to the idea being expressed. But if another person communicates an idea that resides in a area or subject matter about which the first person possesses a certain sensitivity, that first person may be more prone to being offended or hurt, even if the second communicator had no ill intent. Have you never been offended or hurt by something done or said by someone who was oblivious to your feelings on that matter? Somehow I doubt it. Intent is one thing. It is not the only thing.
El hombre Malo: If And I’ve read many comments on this issue from asians outside the USA who dont find the gesture offensive, precisely because of the lack of intent.
Luigi Novi: In the first place, how do you know what their reasons are for not being offended? Secondly, how do you know that there aren’t Asians who were offended? Do you have your finger on the pulse of every single Asian on the planet?
El hombre Malo: And there are comparable slurs against spaniards. We’ve been until 30+ years ago a country of emigrants, pretty much despised by other european countries because… well, because we were poorer, shorter, hairier… There were signs saying “No Dogs or spaniards allowed” in many british pubs, french said “Africa begins in the Pirinees” and so recently as in the early nineties, spanish students could get beaten in england just because. That was offensive, because that people was actually trying to offend.
Luigi Novi: Again, how do you know this? Does it not occur to you that many people make statements or commit acts that are part of institutionalized bigotry who genuinely have no intent to offend? Does it not occur to you that there have been (and still are) many people who use the word “ņìggër” to refer to black people, who genuinely don’t understand why some people do find it offensive when used to casually refer to members of that group? Do you automatically assume that all the cartoonists who created the Jyllands-Posten cartoons that enflamed many in the Muslim world in 2005 necessarily intended to offend? If so, you are obviously misinformed.
El hombre Malo This I just read… The Chinese ambassador says “ese gesto no lo entendemos como una ofensa”… meaning “We dont understand that gesture as offensive”.
Luigi Novi: One person is not qualified to speak for over 1 billion people, especially when he has the metaphorical gun of a totalitarian regime to his head.
El hombre Malo: If a monkey playing with crayons create a beautiful pattern, you can talk of beauty but not of art.
Luigi Novi: Yes, you can. Art is defined as the act of creating things that people find aesthetically pleasing, or the products of this act.
El hombre Malo: But if an artist intends to make something beautiful, he can fail or suceed, no matter what the intent was. But intent is much more worth of notice when you consider meaning in a work of art and not merely aesthetical pleasure.
Luigi Novi: Artist’s intent is one consideration. It is not the only one. Aesthetic enjoyment of a given work is indeed a valid criteria for judging it as art. It is how we can enjoy works from artists whose intents are unknown or unclear to us.
El hombre Malo: If Artist A, from Korea, depicts in an elaborate way how his mother used to raise, kill, chop and cook a delicious dog… when his piece is shown to a western audience many would feel offended…
Luigi Novi: Possibly. But not necessarily. It depends on the manner in which the act is depicted, and the effect it has the audience. Some of the most memorable works of art in history involve violence, sometimes gruesomely. Sometimes these works do this through the use of abstraction, metaphor, humor, allegory, etc. Sometimes they convey the violence in explicit or gruesome fashion. La Pietà, Guernica, the films Se7en and The Silence of the Lambs, and various versions of classic fairy tales like Little Red Riding Hood are all examples of these varied approaches, and for the most part, they are not generally famous for having offended many people. Heck, the symbol held most dear by Christians is that of the corpse of a crucified man!
The flaw I see in your reasoning is in overgeneralizing to such an extent that you paint all peoples as being easily categorized into one or more heterogeneous groups whose members can all be painted with one brush. The reality is a bit less simplistic.
El hombre Malo: If Artist B from Italy creates a work based on a serie of people defecating on a Bible/Koran/Torah, he is beign offensive in a deliberate way, there is an intent because that offense is inside the meaning of the work of art.
Luigi Novi: No. You cannot automatically gauge a person’s intent in this manner. What you describe is your interpretation. Not another person’s state of mind. You cannot gauge deliberation from personal interpretation. Your theory seems to imply that communicators and their intended audience never get their wires crossed, or experience misunderstandings or differences of perception.
Using waste material automatically indicates an offensive intent? Really? How do you figure this? Because you find such a thing unpleasant?
Artist Andres Serrano exhibited a photograph in 1989 called “Piss Christ”, which depicted a crucifix in urine. Many were offended. But he stated that his intent was not to offend, but to make a statement about the commercialization of Christianity that he felt was symbolized by the crucifix. Chris Ofili’s piece, “The Holy Virgin Mary”, depicted the Virgin mother surrounded by elephant feces and images of female genitalia from pornographic magazines in a 1999-2000 New York City exhibit called “Sensation”. His stated intent was not to offend, as he himself is Christian, and Peter David himself went to see it, and said he thought it was beautiful. Filmmaker Kevin Smith made a religiously-themed film in 1999 called Dogma about two rogue angels who wanted to destroy the universe. It included a scene featuring a monster called a Golgothan, who was composed of the feces dropped by the crucified at Golgotha. His intent was not to offend, but to explore themes and ideas from his own Catholicism. “Cartoon Wars”, a 2006 two-part episode of the TV show South Park, parodied the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, and its finale included images of George W. Bush and Jesus Christ defecating on other people and on the American flag. It was clearly intended to be a statement on both the wrongness of censorship, and the hypocrisy with which some who favor it are inconsistent in what they censor, as the cable network that aired it, Comedy Central, censored the appearance of Mohammed in the episode, but not the images of Bush and Christ defecating.
Is it possible that some of these people were being disingenuous when stating that they no intent to offend? I guess. But at the same time, to argue as you do that you can automatically determine—via some apparent form of telepathy, I guess—these people’s state of mind, simply by virtue of the whims that inform your personal reaction to such works, is to be kind, unsupportable.
The fact remains that it is possible both to intend to offend someone, and fail to do so, and to offend someone when not intending to do so. While I would not argue that the most sensitive should set the bar for everyone, I think that how such incidents are adjudicated should be determined by some consensus on how reasonable the stated offense is. That may not be easy to determine, but it’s certainly more reasoned than your simplistic “intent is everything” philosophy.