Remember that name. I suspect you’ll be hearing it a lot as possible court proceedings ensue.
She was an 11 year old girl who was diabetic. And as she spent the last month of her life writhing in agony, vomiting, her body shutting down, her parents did not obtain the treatment that could have saved her life. Instead they prayed for God to save her.
It reminds one of the story of the man who ignored a radio report that flood waters were rising, refusing to leave his house because he was convinced that God would save him. As the waters rose, two guys in a boat came by and said, “Climb in!” And he said, “No. God will save me.” As he clambered onto his roof, a helicopter flew past and said, “We’ll throw you down a rope ladder! Climb up!” And he said, “No, God will save me.” And the man drowned. And when he found himself before God, he said, “I’ve spent my life being devout and singing your praises, and you didn’t save me!” And God said, “I sent you a radio report, a boat and a helicopter. What are you DOING here?”
I wonder what He will say to Madeline Kara Neumann. “Sorry your parents were such fools?”
The truly infuriating thing is that even the Bible–or at least the New American Bible, in the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus 38:1-15)–addresses this very notion:
“Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession. From God the doctor has his wisdom, and the king provides for his sustenance. His knowledge makes the doctor distinguished, and gives him access to those in authority.
God makes the earth yield healing herbs which the prudent man should not neglect; was not the water sweetened by a twig that men might learn his power?
He endows men with the knowledge to glory in his mighty works, through which the doctor eases pain and the druggist prepares his medicines; thus God’s creative work continues without cease in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
My son, when you are ill, delay not, but pray to God, who will heal you: flee wickedness; let your hands be just, cleanse your heart of every sin; offer your sweet-smelling oblation and petition, a rich offering according to your means.
Then give the doctor his place lest he leave; for you need him too. There are times that give him an advantage, and he too beseeches God that his diagnosis may be correct and his treatment bring about a cure.
He who is a sinner toward his Maker will be defiant toward the doctor.”
Ðámņ straight. There is far more to the notion of divine intervention than unexplained miracles. Giving doctors the skill to cure patients is miraculous. Life itself is miraculous. It is tragic that there are those who are so blinded by fervor that they cannot see the divinity of what is right in front of them, and even more tragic when those depending upon them lose their lives because of that blindness.
PAD
• 
People like these parents are, among other groups of ignorant fools, what make Christianity look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Asking God to give you a flash of light and a miraculous healing is foolishness. He won’t do it. There are doctors in the world for a reason. No, God isn’t lazy (the Great Story as I like to call it is still going on, and the Author is still writing). He’s certainly not deaf, and I doubt that there was a problem with not having enough faith here.
Actually, it seems the problem was TOO much faith. My mom might say that there’s no such thing, but can only be true in a certain context. These people are proof of that. They had such faith that God would perform miracles to fix all their problems, but what they failed to realize is that God had already seen fit to make sure there were ways for their daughter to be healed.
Now, I don’t buy into the “God helps those who help themselves” thing entirely. I do believe that we should put effort into fixing our problems, but we should ALWAYS trust in God’s guidance and trust that He knows what He’s doing.
I’m a Christian. I’m not as good a Christian as I would like, but I do understand several things. Doing something stupid like what these parents did qualifies, at least in my book, as tempting God, or testing Him.
It saddens and sickens me that people like this exist who take Christianity to an extreme or just take it completely out of context. People like this need to be slapped, and if it leads to something like this poor girl dying they need to be locked up for their crime until they grow some brain cells.
I’m not looking to convince anyone on my own. And as I’ve said, I don’t belittle or or condemn anyone that chooses…for whatever reason…to vaccinate their children.
But the discussion is appropriate when thinking about kids because of their dependent nature. They count on adults for literally everything for a pretty significant time. They are well and truly totally within our power. If we say they need a shot that contains a substance that’s known to be toxic because “it’s good for them” (or us, or society, or how have you), they listen to us. Because they trust us to know better.
The point is, we don’t. We learn every day that what we thought was safe and good for is…say eggs…is suddenly bad for us because they have cholesterol, which is bad. But later we learn that it’s not the bad cholesterol, it’s the good cholesterol, so it’s good for us again.
So I know full well the risk associated with the various diseases that we have vaccines for. I also know full well that those vaccines were developed for adults, without consideration for the substantial differences between an adult body and an infant. And those differences go far beyond body mass and weight.
I also know full well that normal onset of autism is slow and gradual, not overnight. Autism spurred by vaccination happens in a matter of days, and it’s not just parents refusing to see the subtle changes. If it were just one or two cases, maybe I’d attribute it to that. But its hundreds, thousands of families recounting the same story.
The vaccine program is important, but the risks have to be acceptable. Does anyone think this is any different for any other program? Is there any doubt that if, say NASA, required the sacrifice of 1000 people’s lives every month, that we’d be spending any amount of money on it?
The vaccine program is important, but the risks have to be acceptable. Does anyone think this is any different for any other program?
No, certainly not. The difference is that so far, the risks you and Alan have recounted are, at least in my view, wholly anecdotal in nature and not supported by the evidence.
I’m certainly not denying your right to choose not to vaccinate, nor am I attempting to belittle your own choice — but I don’t see the risks in the same way you do. The “thousands of families recounting the same story” carries very little real weight, as per the analogy I mentioned earlier.
To turn your question around on you: is there any doubt in your mind that the media would treat this the same way as other recalls? If vaccinations were really shown to be as dangerous as you say, do you think the news outlets would refrain from jumping on it like a pack of rabid coyotes? What, then, does it mean if they haven’t?
TWL
Chelation therapy has been shown to be effective in treating many cases of autism. It doesn’t completely change the child, but most who receive the treatment show remarkable improvement.
Chelation therapy removes heavy metals from the body. In case you haven’t read all the previous posts, Mercury and Lead are heavy metals.
Okay, Alan, now you’re starting to actually get unpleasant. Just because I disagree with you does not mean you are therefore required to get patronizing.
1) In case YOU haven’t read all the previous posts, I teach physics for a living. I am well aware that mercury and lead are heavy metals.
2) I’d like a source for your claim about chelation therapy, please.
That said, can we perhaps turn the heat down a bit? I’m doubting some of your claims — that doesn’t mean I think you’re a horrible person, and I in turn would appreciate the same courtesy.
TWL
Bobb Alfred: “If we say they need a shot that contains a substance that’s known to be toxic because “it’s good for them””
It is *not* known to be toxic.
What bothers me is not so much that you believe this, but that you didn’t even find out if it is true or not. With just a little bit of research you could find out that scientists have actually looked into it and found out that thimerosal is known *not* to be toxic. They’ve actually looked in places that have phased it out and seen that autism rates don’t change.
Furthermore, with just a little bit of research you would have found out that there are vaccines available without thimerosal. So even if you’re not willing to believe the actual science, there are still alternatives.
Bobb, autism spurred by vaccination doesn’t happen in days, or in weeks, or at all. But because people are taking the attitude of “let’s wait until the kid down the street gets sick,” Polio and other diseases are on the rise that should not be hurting anyone.
Holding off on vaccinations because they *might* be a problem? Even though scientists have already checked and found out that there isn’t? And despite the fact that the diseases being vaccinated for are real and not a maybe? That’s the kind of thinking that had people killing cats during the black plague, thus letting the rat population grow. That was based on common knowledge, too.
Just a few thoughts …
I find it amazing that people put so much faith in science and scientists as if it is somehow neutral and only interested in the truth. Scientists like many other professions (journalists) will provide the answers required of them. Are we to believe that scientists working for CDC, FDA or Big Pharma really get far in those organisations without toeing the party line and without buying into all the underlying assumptions that they work to? Of course, they will say vaccinations are safe.
Secondly, we appear to be in the midst of an Autism epidemic. It can’t be genetic as we don’t get genetic epidemics. I can fully accept that their is a genetic component but what is switching it on. On the evidence I have seen and on the people I have spoken to – that’s parents with Austitic children – I would say vaccines play a part. But I also think that other environmental factors are playing a part most especially diet. In the last 100 years, how we live has changed so dramatically compared to the previous millenia that it would be remarkable indeed if the human body would not be affected. Some of it has been for the better – we live longer as a whole – but have their also been negative impacts – increased mental health issues and an increase in autism?
Thirdly it is not vaccines that have cut infant mortality and have increased life expentancy. Diseases such as measles, mumps etc had been declining well before vaccines were introduced. The people we need to thank are plumbers for giving us clean water.
The only reason we vaccinate and medicate so much in the West is that Big Pharma makes a heck of a lot of money of it and we are made to feel guilty for not protecting our children from this hideous diseases. Of course, these diseases were not always so dangerous. No one in this country (UK) at least thinks Chicken Pox is dangerous yet we are now being told our children should be vaccinated against it because it can KILL! Strangely reading medical books from the 60s they don’t really think measles was that dangerous and I read a book published in the late 70’s called Immunisation by a man who supported vaccination (a scientist, would you believe) who said there was no good case for immunising against mumps as by and large it was that bad, yet here we are pumping our kids with stuff because it is so bad.
There needs to be serious, independent, long term research into autism and it’s increase. I don’t think it will happen as it could conclude that some of most cherished beliefs – vaccination is good – is wrong!
I am a parent of one severly autistic 16 year old boy who loves Star Trek, Babylon 5, British Sitcoms and You Tube. I also have a 10 year old daughter who has Asperger Syndrome and she loves Spongebob (who doesn’t), Avatar and the Bratz. I hope that the vaccinations they received didn’t cause their condition but if they did, I took them to the Doctor to get them and I should have known the risk. Hey, just more guilt.
Good luck and God Bless and sorry for the rant.
Steve
There needs to be serious, independent, long term research into autism and it’s increase
This, I think, is something everyone can agree with. I certainly do. I can’t say the same for everything else in your post, but I certainly think further research into autism is an extremely good idea.
Good luck with your continued struggle with autism as you raise your children, Steve. You have my deepest respect and hope.
TWL
If Chelation therapy “cures” a child’s autism, then it’s not autism in the first place, it’s a different metabolic disorder, like people who accumulate too much coppper or iron in the blood.
Megan:
Autism, unfortunately, remains even more a catch-all category with loose definitions that are behavior-based. There is no specific finding, no MRI, no lab test, no xray to suddenly say “Ah! Autism!” If no one can explain something, it’s thrown into the autism category. If a child self-stimulates for any reason whatsoever (and there are many diseases and causes), it’s called autism. Especially by PhD’s or even MD’s who don’t know the finer points to differentiate cerebral palsy behaviors from autism. Nowadays, even the kid that would rather sit with a good book and not be a cheerleader is being labeled “autistic”. You’re not a geek anymore, you’re autistic.
“Autism” can be demonstrably caused by a failure of development of the superior olive in the medulla of the brain (my adopted son falls in this category, as proved by MRI), by genetic syndromes such as Fragile X and Down’s Syndrome (the two most common genetic disorders), even by Thalidomide exposure of the fetus. Colleges don’t teach about autism until the graduate level, not even in classes for special Ed teachers. When they do, they talk about the cute little kid who switches pronouns around and flaps his hands when anxious – not the kid who’s stark naked, tearing chunks out of his hand with his teeth, eating his own feces, and hasn’t slept in 3 screaming days. No one wants to talk about these kids; no one is talking about curing them.
Those are the autistics I worked with.
Is there something to the recent rise in what seems to be a much more mild form of autism? (Barry Neil Kaufman had used the same methods to cure his own son, 30 years ago.) I tend to say a cautious yes, but let’s look at common products that Americans have but 3rd-world countries don’t (they still have thimerosol, but their autism rates haven’t changed) – Nutrasweet, which we consume in huge quantities, wall to wall carpeting (which contains horrific toxic chemicals), over the counter medications, microwave ovens, Tyvek house wrap (which holds all those toxins inside your house), stacchybotris (sp?) mold, which lives in wet wallboard and is a known neurotoxin? Anything could be the cause, but it’s got to be something that’s really become common in the last 10 years or so, that we have everywhere, that we’re exposed to constantly but lesser countries aren’t. Maybe it’s the antibiotics and chemicals we poison our meat with. Maybe it’s flourescent lights. Maybe it’s because we took the thimerosol OUT of the vaccines. A study was very recently done that showed NEWBORN babies already carried high levels of several toxic chemicals – pesticides, etc. There’s an answer, but we’re not thinking hard enough, because, in the case of something like chemicals in meat or pesticide residues in water or vegetables, it’s not something we want to hear and the fix won’t be cheap or easy – which, the lobbying in this country being what it is, means it will never happen.
What, then, does it mean if they haven’t?
That they have liberal bias? 😉
Alan Coil: Chelation therapy has been shown to be effective in treating many cases of autism.
Luigi Novi: No, it’s been asserted to be effective. That doesn’t mean it’s been shown to be. The notion is completely unscientific, and there are no peer-reviewed studies to corroborate it.
Alan Coil: It doesn’t completely change the child, but most who receive the treatment show remarkable improvement.
Luigi Novi: So do people taking a placebo. That doesn’t mean that the placebo causes the improvement.
Steve Jones: I find it amazing that people put so much faith in science and scientists as if it is somehow neutral and only interested in the truth.
Luigi Novi: Speaking only for myself and other who understand what science really is, we do not put “faith” in science. We simply understand that when the properly methodologies are used, that it is the best method we have of investigating empirical knowledge.
Steve Jones: Scientists like many other professions (journalists) will provide the answers required of them. Are we to believe that scientists working for CDC, FDA or Big Pharma really get far in those organisations without toeing the party line and without buying into all the underlying assumptions that they work to?
Luigi Novi: Scientific knowledge is not based on those organizations, or for that matter, even scientists. It’s based on evidence. Putting aside the fact that not all scientists work for such organizations, if the science is wrong, that truth will eventually come out through the Peer Review Process.
Steve Jones: Secondly, we appear to be in the midst of an Autism epidemic. It can’t be genetic as we don’t get genetic epidemics.
Luigi Novi: We are not in the midst of an epidemic. Autism rates are now greater because more conditions are now classified under the umbrella of autism spectrum disorders (ASD), whereas previously, they were not, and because there is now greater surveillance of these conditions, thus producing the illusion that autism has increased.*
Steve Jones: Thirdly it is not vaccines that have cut infant mortality and have increased life expectancy. Diseases such as measles, mumps etc had been declining well before vaccines were introduced. The people we need to thank are plumbers for giving us clean water.
Luigi Novi: Vaccines have indeed caused a decline in childhood diseases. They are one of the most successful accomplishments in modern health care, reducing, and in some cases eliminating, serious infectious diseases, and multiple lines of evidence show that neither they nor thimerosal do not cause autism. Whereas cumulative and high does of methylmercury can produce neurological damage, thimerosal is ethylmercury, which is more “mercurial”, is expelled rapidly by the body, and does not accumulate.*
As for plumbing, while it certainly contributes, we’ve had pluming for many decades. But many vaccines have only been around for a couple of generations. Prior to then, people still suffered from polio, for example, despite the fact that we indeed had good plumbing back then.*
Steve Jones: The only reason we vaccinate and medicate so much in the West is that Big Pharma makes a heck of a lot of money of it.
Luigi Novi: We vaccinate and mediate because, like any other practice supported by scientific evidence, it works to improve our lives. To be skeptical and cautious regarding Big Pharma is one thing. But with all due respect to the challenges you face raising a child with autism, Steve, this statement by you, is at best, an irrational exaggeration.
My best wishes go out to you and your family. 🙂
*Sources:
–Skeptical Inquirer; Volume 31, No. 6; November/December 2007
–Skeptic magazine; Volume 13 Number 3; 2007
“There’s an answer, but we’re not thinking hard enough”
I’m sure all the researchers will be glad to know that if they just put down their ipods and stop all the basketball pools and gossiping and really think about it the answer will suddenly appear.
Now, I myself have a problem with vaccinations, but for me I just can’t stand needles. Sharp metal pointy things should not penetrate your skin unless you’re losing a sword fight or getting axe murdered. Throw in the look the kid gives me any time he gets one, and I feel like I’m right up there with the worst fathers in the world. (And, considering they’re in my wife’s family, I have a basis for comparison.)
Sorry, Steve.
“No one in this country (UK) at least thinks Chicken Pox is dangerous yet we are now being told our children should be vaccinated against it because it can KILL!”
Would you like to speak with my cousin-in-law, who is a triple-congential amputee – no arms, one leg – whose mother had chicken pox while pregnant with him? Any person with T-cell immunity issues (a growing group as AIDS patients survive longer), who are on corticosteroid therapy (all your transplant patients), chemotherapy (all your cancer patients), or have any immune issue, known or not, whatsoever are at serious risk of fatality from Chicken Pox, the Varicella virus. And even if you’ve had CPox, you can still get Shingles, which is a painful variant form that is still contagious and can recur at any time.
And no, infectious diseases were not in decline before vaccines. In fact, Polio was on an exponential increase, which is why researchers were frantic to find a vaccine. “Declines” are led by statistics, and statistics are too easy to manipulate. If the town of Tombstone had a measles epidemic in 1955, then of course the stats for 1956, 57, and 58 are going to be lower, as there is a smaller susceptible population to infect. But there may well be another massive outbreak in 1960, when all those kids not born in 1955 go off to kindergarten and gain exposure to a virus that is still lying around in wait. We also now have antibiotics, antivirals, and other drugs in our arsenal to counteract complications like encephalitis, and streptoccal infections from the blisters.
None of the diseases we vaccinate against are new diseases. They are almost all hundreds, if not thousands of years old, with many mutations along the way – hence there may have been a very severe outbreak in 1861, but only mild until 1911. We know polio was known to the ancient Egyptians, but it only became virulent after the 1920’s, as fewer and fewer children were naturally exposed because of … improved cleanliness and sanitation. We have been able to eradicate natural smallpox because humans were the only vector. Apes get polio, too, but we’re very close to eradicating polio from the world as well. As for those others like Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Menengitis, etc, they are much more problematic for a variety of reasons (same way we can’t eradicate anthrax), and it’s not likely we’ll ever be able to eradicate them – which means if you’ve never been vaccinated, the virus will always be lying in wait, somewhere, for you to walk by.
People didn’t invent the vaccines because these diseases were simple childhood things, but because they were horrible; blinding, deafening, scarring, retarding, paralyzing, organ-damaging, and otherwise maiming a massive number of children and adults. We don’t remember this because even today’s doctors haven’t seen some of these diseases, but it doesn’t change the facts.
When it comes to vaccines and autism, I’m inclined to side with Bartlet from the episode of “West Wing” where he explains the Latin term, “Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc”:
“After it, therefore because of it.” It means one thing follows the other, therefore it was caused by the other. But it’s not always true. In fact it’s hardly ever true.
PAD
It ain’t that cut and dried. The lobotomy treatment that institutionalized Rosemary Kennedy for who knows what reason (maybe Joe didn’t like his single daughter sneaking out of the convent at night that much) won its originator a Nobel a decade later, and homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder until the 1970s.
“Science is based on evidence” only means something when science is open access. The influence of science is only increasing dramatically, and science as we still know it is sheltered by closed-access.
So, yes, there is a large component of faith required to participate in the American lifestyle as we know it today.
Mike, there’s a difference between “open access” and “open to every opinion, informed or otherwise.” I agree with you that science is only properly self-correcting when the data is open for all to see, but it still takes a certain amount of expertise in many cases to be able to interpret said data properly. (Take, for instance, the lawsuit filed by the two people earlier this week trying to stop the LHC from going on-line.)
In principle, I agree with Luigi that the only “faith” one needs in science is that the scientific process itself works, and that’s a fairly easy one to check. I agree with you that there are times when that breaks down, but that’s a fault of the constraints on the process, not the process itself.
TWL
I’m not taking a side on the vaccine vs non-vaccine debate as I need more info. I will say though, that after my friend caught chicken pox from the vaccine, I’m staying very far away from that vaccine for now.
Re: Autism vs vaccine. There’s a small mention of it in a CNN article today. Here’s the link if anyone is interested: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/31/autism.main/index.html
PAD wrote: “After it, therefore because of it.” It means one thing follows the other, therefore it was caused by the other. But it’s not always true. In fact it’s hardly ever true.
—
A friend of my wife had a baby boy and they took him for his MMR. He was a perfectly normal baby. Within hours of his MMR jag, he had completely changed, he had become autistic, though obviously the diagnosis happened later. The only thing different that day was the jag*. Maybe it’s a coincidence. Maybe the mother wore a red dress. Maybe it was a Tuesday. I’ve read a fair few stories from other people. It would be reasonable to say that maybe it was the jag and that maybe we need to investigate that for some children this may not be the best way forward. The jag isn’t given to children for instance who have cancer or have some other serious condition.
I’m not anti-vaccine but I would like a serious review of them. Do we really need all of them? Have we gone too far? When the vaccines are trialled do they, the scientists, follow a test group for years as any side-effects may only happen later and not instantly?
Steve
*It’s what they call an injection in Scotland.
I’ve said before, the vaccination program is something we should be pursuing. Applied well, it has tremendous potential benefit.
But an aggressive schedule that begins at birth does not seem to me to be the safest way to go. This link has the current, 2008 recommended vaccination schedule.
http://www.cispimmunize.org/IZSchedule_Childhood.pdf
We know that the first 5 years of life involve a huge amount of development, both physical and mental. Yet we’re introducing an increasing amount of foreign substances into that critical period, with no understanding of what short and long-term effects it’s having.
The effectiveness of vaccination doesn’t last forever. Some have longer effective periods than others, but all eventually stop providing any kind of immunization or protective effect. While children’s immune systems are still developing, maybe there’s an argument to support getting kids vaccinated. On the other hand, breastfed babies get a good dose of antibodies from their mothers, so generally they won’t need a boost to their systems for protection.
For everyone that’s truly concerned about an epidemic, do you get your shots updated? Why isn’t there an adult schedule for people aged 30 and over?
I understand that there are many deadly diseases and viruses in the world. I just don’t think injecting our children with literally god knows what is the solution to preventing them.
“breastfed babies get a good dose of antibodies from their mothers”
Only if their mothers have the antibodies (either form catching wildstrain or being vaccinated themselves). Anecdote: When pregnant with my eldest(1984-85), my rubella titre came back negative (no immunity). Therefore my b/f eldest son would not benefit from any antibodies in my bm, as I had none. The effect on developing foetuses of rubella exposure is well documented.
For everyone that’s truly concerned about an epidemic, do you get your shots updated?
There is info if you’re willing to look for it. Beyond flu, no, they don’t bother to tell us about it. The big thing is that the government will help with vaccinations for children.
My wife and I got a tetanus booster last year, and got a flu shot last month. We’re looking into the others, as well – some are recommended for updates, like tetanus every 10 years, some apparently or not or the insurance doesn’t like to bother with. I’m 26.
Whooping cough is another disease that is making a come back that boosters are probably needed for adults.
My wife is also carefully looking at getting the HPV vaccination, even though she doesn’t need it and is above the age that health care professionals most want to be vaccinated.
For everyone that’s truly concerned about an epidemic, do you get your shots updated?
The most likely epidemic is flu — and yes, I do. I sometimes get a flu vaccine for myself, and I absolutely make sure Katherine gets one every year. (I made certain to get one while my mother was ill, since I didn’t want to run any risk of giving her more problems than she already had.)
TWL
For everyone that’s truly concerned about an epidemic, do you get your shots updated?
Almost religiously. If you saw some of the kids who drag their sickly carcasses into class and then proceed to sneeze, wheeze and generally do everything but throw anthrax spores in my general direction you would too.
In principle, I agree with Luigi that the only “faith” one needs in science is that the scientific process itself works, and that’s a fairly easy one to check. I agree with you that there are times when that breaks down, but that’s a fault of the constraints on the process, not the process itself.
It’s also worth mentioning that the mistakes that have been made by scientists have been discovered and rectified by more science. I doubt that many anti-vaccine activists will ever admit they were wrong–the elimination of thimerosol doesn’t seem to have had any effect on autism levels but I haven’t seen any retractions from those people who had no doubt at all that it was the culprit.
We’re told that it’s all a matter of profit and greed but the doctor who proves that vaccines are causing autism will be come famous and richer than Croesus. I’m always amazed when conspiricy minded folks claim that scientists know that this or that is untrue but the suppress the evidence because “they would have to rewrite the history books”. Wow, anyone who thinks that has absolutely no idea how scientists think. That pretty much every scientist’s dream. That’s how you get your name in the history books. Anyone who thinks that doctors and/or scientists are sitting on truths that would make them famous, rich and heralded as a hero needs to examine their assumptions. Or at least not be at all surprised that so few will buy into the fantasy.
Wasn’t the doctor who first insisted surgeons should wash their hands ridiculed so severely by his peers, he broke and was institutionalized?
Yeah, mistakes by scientists have been rectified by more science. Just hope it isn’t your sacrifice the correction depends on.
Is there something to the recent rise in what seems to be a much more mild form of autism?
It’s being diagnosed a lot more, what’s also happening is the diagnosticians are finally looking at the parents in many cases and seeing similar traits there though often masked much better. I absolutely do know of people who most likely did have Asperger who were never diagnosed and went through their life maybe being a little different from those around them but never so much that anyone thought there was something wrong with them. They were geeks, or before that they were what we call here “dellukallar” (hobby enthusiaist would be best translation) and that was ok. Because they weren’t diagnosed according to a lot of people they obviously didn’t exist and thus because diagnostics have come a long way since Hans Asperger’s time people who would have been considered far too ‘normal’ to be considered remotely autistic at that time are now being diagnosed. It does not mean those people did not have the difficulties those diagnosed today did or that they were somehow ‘normal’, in fact many of them when they hear those now diagnosed talk they go “oh I know exactly what you mean!”. This in turns often leads to that person seeking out a diagnosis.
People can be incredibly ignorant when it comes to this particular little condition and assume that of course an increase in diagnosis means an increase in it happening because people couldn’t have had it and not been diagnosed. On the high functioning spectrum a lot of individuals, they hide their differences very very well and how they appear in schools or in public can be VASTLY different from their true behaviour when not in a forced social situation like that. I’m not even going to go into trying to deal with media when they decide this would make a great new scare to play on, or the subsequent explaining to parents that just 15 years ago their child wouldn’t even have been diagnosed with HFA or AS because the tests in place then wouldn’t have caught it. (All the while noting several traits that fall on the scale in the parents themselves)
My father was never diagnosed, neither was his father (unsurprisingly as my father was born around the time Hans Asperger was publishing his paper) yet from the stories and the mannerisms it seems clear both had mild form of Aspergers or high functioning autism. In my father’s time there was nothing wrong with being the way he was, he wasn’t viewed as a ‘problem’ by his society, not within school or the workplace where his differences were just accepted as a personality trait, nor was his father before him. The society they were born into changed a great deal, suddenly not being able to focus on that, being bothered by that type of light that didn’t exist until in the 70s or so, well that’s being a problem. How different behaviour of those in the high functioning spectrum was viewed changed, expectations and demands on those children and adolescents changed by an incredible amount just going from my father to his children. People sometimes say “well there’s no autistic people in primitive tribes so clearly it must be chemicals in our society!”, but they never consider that perhaps the disabilities that come with milder forms of autism wouldn’t come into play nearly as readily and thus not be apparent. There are quite a few situations where an individual with HFA or Aspergers wouldn’t attract any attention as being anything more than just a little different – but still being within the bounds most people would just consider minor character traits.
If you were to talk to some of the people studying autism about the vaccine thing they’d alternate between sighing and laughing. Trust me I’ve been there when it’s been brought up and the reactions tend to be of the “Oh, one of those…” type. People of course are entitled to their beliefs in this matter, but in this field lets just say those who are most knowledgeable about the condition hate to waste time on the popular vaccine conspiracy. The science just hasn’t supported it and still this thing will not go away. But people will believe what they want, and this “autism epidemic” sensationalistic bull people keep spouting sounds much cooler than vastly improved diagnostics making it possible to spot the high functioning end of the spectrum easier. I haven’t reached the steps the others have of being able to mentally shrug it off, it still bothers me that people are completely ignoring how much diagnostic methods have advanced in just the last 10 years or so. But I suppose they can’t be blamed, they have no knowledge of this world or the incredible amount of work that’s been done in it in just the last 15 years or so. But I fully respect any parent’s choice to not vaccinate, I just loath the ‘autism epidemic’ phrase so often spouted off so easily, casually and without any research. I suppose it’s like that old story of the guy who researched the life expectancy of left handed people and found they didn’t live past a certain age (those older were born in a time when they were forced to become right handed).
Oh and Susan O, you have all my respects, that’s a very challenging job to do. These days it sometimes seems we’re forgetting about the more severe cases, and while it’s good that those higher functioning are getting the help they have needed and wanted it’s sometimes sad to see that the more extreme cases sort of fall by the wayside.
Bobb Alfred:
“But an aggressive schedule that begins at birth does not seem to me to be the safest way to go.”
As the parent watching my baby scream as he’s stuck over and over, I absolutely agree, but in our current state of babies being chucked into daycare at 6 weeks or less (don’t get me started on that one), the risk of a very small infant catching something is rather high, where as 40 years ago, the risk would have been less.
Instead, it would be nice if the states (forget asking the gov.) made testing a newborn’s blood for a greater variety of issues standard. CT does a decent job with mandatory screening for metabolic disorders such as PKU or Ornithine Transcarbamalase deficiencies (fatal in boys), and of course hemophilia, but you leave the hospital without even knowing your baby’s blood type – inexcusable, when you’re already drawing blood. Maybe if we did some better screening work, we’d be able to find the issues with immunity in time to prevent problems, instead of finding out (like with SCIDS – inborn immune difficiencies, for which vaccines could be fatal) when something awful happens.
TIM LYNCH said—
“Okay, Alan, now you’re starting to actually get unpleasant. Just because I disagree with you does not mean you are therefore required to get patronizing.”
_____
Tim, I wasn’t being unpleasant, I was just including previous information for anybody who might not have read the entire thread. Sorry if it seemed unpleasant.
For further information on chelation therapy, simply do a search for chelation therapy and autism.
Susan O said—
“If Chelation therapy “cures” a child’s autism, then it’s not autism in the first place, it’s a different metabolic disorder, like people who accumulate too much coppper or iron in the blood.”
_____
I didn’t state that chelation therapy cures autism. I stated that many show improvement after treatment.
Here is a link to Healthy Talk Radio. I haven’t listened to this, as it is still downloading (dial up; takes a while). The segment concerning autism is the third hour on Monday, March 31.
http://healthytalkradio.com/index.cfm/5704
Alan Coil: I didn’t state that chelation therapy cures autism. I stated that many show improvement after treatment.
Luigi Novi: But not because of it.
Tim, I wasn’t being unpleasant, I was just including previous information for anybody who might not have read the entire thread. Sorry if it seemed unpleasant.
It certainly came off as snide to me, but I’ll accept that that’s not how you meant it. No big deal.
For further information on chelation therapy, simply do a search for chelation therapy and autism.
I have, and I remain unconvinced. Sure, there are dozens of web sites claiming it’s effective — there are twice that many claiming that it’s NOT, and more of them appear to have actual data backing them up rather than anecdotes.
By “a source” I was hoping to get an actual study.
TWL
Wasn’t the doctor who first insisted surgeons should wash their hands ridiculed so severely by his peers, he broke and was institutionalized?
Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, though the reason for his being institutionalized may have been Alzheimer’s disease and not just criticism. He was not entirely rejected however; while he left Vienna with a bad reputation he was able to build a thriving practice and his techniques became accepted throughout Hungary. His doctrine was vindicated shortly after his death by Louis Pasteur. So, a good example of exactly what I said.
(Joseph Lister and Oliver Wendell Holmes deserve mention as well–Holmes apparently beat Semmelweis by a few years in discovering how puerperal fever could be spread.)
Funny how we get on this topic and now, in the news, measles outbreaks among some unvaccinated people in Tucson and San Diego–both started from Switzerland, of all places. I know the Netherlands and Sweden have had periods where vaccines were discontinued and had outbreaks result–I wonder if the Swiss are making the same mistake.
That sounds like a vacation compared to the wikipedia account:
Vindication, courtesy of… the Twilight Zone.
From what I’ve read, Semmelweiss had a stinker of a temper, and his pompousness and ego were partly what made his contemporaries tend to ignore what he said. And it wasn’t just handwashing – it was the problem that doctors were going from barehanded autopsies directly to baby deliveries that almost guaranteed a mother’s death – and another autopsy.
“As the parent watching my baby scream as he’s stuck over and over, I absolutely agree, but in our current state of babies being chucked into daycare at 6 weeks or less (don’t get me started on that one), the risk of a very small infant catching something is rather high, where as 40 years ago, the risk would have been less.”
One size doesn’t fit all. Every parent has to weigh their risk and exposure. Our kids don’t go into daycare, and are/were both breastfed, with good diets and regular wellness visits. Given what appears to us to be a current risk regarding infections…and coupled with some neorological issues over febrile seizures and movement ticks…we’ve decided not to take the risk, because we don’t feel our kids are at high risk for exposure. Other parents facing different situations might very well make a different decision.
“Instead, it would be nice if the states (forget asking the gov.) made testing a newborn’s blood for a greater variety of issues standard. CT does a decent job with mandatory screening for metabolic disorders such as PKU or Ornithine Transcarbamalase deficiencies (fatal in boys), and of course hemophilia, but you leave the hospital without even knowing your baby’s blood type – inexcusable, when you’re already drawing blood. Maybe if we did some better screening work, we’d be able to find the issues with immunity in time to prevent problems, instead of finding out (like with SCIDS – inborn immune difficiencies, for which vaccines could be fatal) when something awful happens.”
Once again, one size doesn’t fit all. There are tests that can be conducted to determine if some vaccines should be given, or in some cases not given. Drs. are told not to adminster a vaccine if a child has even a mild fever, and despite this sometimes the vaccines are given anyway.
One of the greatest things about living in today’s modern world is that there is so much information available through very little effort. One downside to that is that people often believe whatever they hear first, and anything that comes after that is greeted with skepticism and doubt.
I’ll offer this for further consideration:
“The most reputable scientists around the world have looked at this situation over and over again, and they have stated that they cannot see how the Earth could revolve around the sun.”
That quote doesn’t exist. I’ve added the last clause. The actual quote ended with “an association between vaccines and autism.” The point being, many time through man’s history, the best science and thought on a subject has been totally and completely wrong. Sometimes because of outside influences, like religious control. Sometimes for political reasons. And sometimes because our science can’t yet reveal some causes or effects. Breaking the sound barrier, nuclear fission…maybe in another 20 years we’ll be laughing about how we used to think that effecient nuclear fusion was impossible, or how foolish we all used to be about using refined petroleum for fuel.
I don’t think anyone has posted this yet, but CNN seems to be reviewing the debate about vaccines and autism also.
For those interested, the link is: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/24/autism.vaccines/index.html
The point being, many time through man’s history, the best science and thought on a subject has been totally and completely wrong.
Perhaps, but with respect you’re using a terrible, terrible example.
First off, it’s not correct: a number of philosophers in ancient Greece had no problem with the idea of Earth going around the sun, and even brought up the idea of other inhabited worlds.
Second, it’s something of a specious argument to use beliefs that were rooted in dogma before the rise of the scientific method. “The best science” pre-Galileo basically did not exist in a form that scientists would recognize as such today.
Third, while there’s no doubt that views can and do shift in science, and that theories will change over time, it’s generally a process of refinement, not simply tossing something out wholesale as wrong. Even some of the biggest revolutions in physics, such as relatively and quantum mechanics, came because someone discovered a contradiction in the previous theory and moved to fix it. They weren’t made out of whole cloth, and they didn’t toss old ideas out the window. Special relativity didn’t make old Newtonian ideas “wrong” — just only applicable under certain conditions.
Lastly, saying “science has been wrong before so it could be wrong now” is a brush so broad that it can be used as a catch-all to justify ANY activity as acceptable. There’s a big big difference between dismissing an argument out of hand (cf. your Earth example) and noting that studies so far have FAILED TO DEMONSTRATE the claimed effect. Doesn’t mean that it’s not worth investigating further — but it means that the people who are insisting on an effect in the face of studies showing no effect aren’t just saying “look at this more closely,” but “I’m right and the scientific community is wrong.” There’s a phrase to describe those people, and “misunderstood genius” usually isn’t it. (To quote Carl Sagan, “Yes, they laughed at Einstein. They also laughed at Bozo the Clown.”)
I’m sorry for the rant here, but as a science teacher this sort of thing is jumping up and down right on one of my hot buttons.
TWL
Sorry for the oversimplification, but I’m not up to recreating the hours and hours of research my wife and I have done on the subject. Because our research shows that today’s current vaccines are at the very least raising an alarm that the current application of the program is having serious health effects on our most vulnerable people. And with most folks not willing to even listen long enough to hear what I’m actually saying, I’ve found that sometimes a simple example sometimes shakes something loose.
Every revolution starts with a guy who some people think is a kook. Admittedly, for every revolution, there’s probably 1000 actual kooks with the same idea, but with unsupportable ideals. The alarming thing to be about our current program is that most people are ignoring the warning signs, and just insisting on blindly following advice that is based on what amounts to a totally different product. Today’s vaccines share very little in similarity to those from 20 and more years ago, aside from the basic science of using inactive cells in order to trigger an immune response. They’re mass-marketed, designed to be shipped and stored for months or years, rather than what we could call boutique crafts made to be immediately injected. They’re also being combined with other shots, creating who knows what kind of repurcussions.
To use another analogy, it’s like flying jets under the same rules that were used for biplanes. What works for one set of things doesn’t necessarily work for another, even if those two things are basically the same.
I’m not trying to get you to re-create all those hours of research, Bobb — I’m really not. I do, however, have to take issue when you refer to people as “blindly following advice” — it sounds far too close to the statement that anyone who hasn’t agreed with you is living in blinkered ignorance, and I don’t think that’s what you mean.
Every revolution starts with a guy who some people think is a kook.
Not true — that’s a common myth. In science, many revolutions in thinking came about because someone found a new way of looking at something, or because the adherents to an old way of thinking died off (literally or figuratively). Ones that came about because of “a guy who some people think is a kook” are actually pretty rare.
To use another analogy, it’s like flying jets under the same rules that were used for biplanes. What works for one set of things doesn’t necessarily work for another, even if those two things are basically the same.
A better analogy, thank you. I think that much is hard to dispute — while I think few if any of the alarms raised by the public anti-vaccine crowd are supportable, there’s every reason for research to continue.
I would ask you, though: is there any research result that would convince you that vaccines are NOT dangerous? If you can’t think of a situation that would change your point of view, then it’s not an opinion you arrived at by research — it’s dogma.
TWL
Tim, I’m not going to point fingers. Many people here have responded with reasoned answers as to why they decided to vaccinate their children, or support the current program. Still others have make less-reasoned comments that suggest they are just blindly swallowing what their government tells them without asking questions or looking at what the government is basing their conclusions on. And just about everyone that relies on the “current studies show no link between vaccines and autisms” is just blindly following them, because those studies are based on faulty date. Vaccine connected incidents are highly under-reported, including onset of autism and death. I can conduct a study of ants, and publish some claims as to their behaviour and societal aspects. But if the only place I look is the few ants that appear in our house every spring as they search for new sources of food, my conclusions are not going to be representative of any kind of truth beyond the confines of my condo.
While the current autism studies are not as drastically faulty as that, they are flawed, and as such any conclusions based on them are likewise flawed.
“I would ask you, though: is there any research result that would convince you that vaccines are NOT dangerous?”
Certainly: Research that openly examines more cases of injury and death following vaccination would sway me, although again my kids do show some signs that all is not normal, so I would still probably choose personally not to vaccinate short of an actual outbreak. I’d also be more likely to support a pogram that limits the number of vaccines that can be combined, and also the preservatives that were allowed to go into them.
Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, though the reason for his being institutionalized may have been Alzheimer’s disease and not just criticism. He was not entirely rejected however; while he left Vienna with a bad reputation he was able to build a thriving practice and his techniques became accepted throughout Hungary. His doctrine was vindicated shortly after his death by Louis Pasteur. So, a good example of exactly what I said.
That sounds like a vacation compared to the wikipedia account:
Um, that’s from the wiki account: In Hungary, Semmelweis took charge of the maternity ward of Pest’s St. Rochus Hospital from 1851 to 1857. His hand- and equipment-washing protocols reduced the mortality rate from puerperal fever to 0.85% there, and his ideas were soon accepted throughout Hungary. He married, had five children, and built a large private practice. He became chair of theoretical and practical midwifery at the University of Pest in July 1855. Semmelweis turned down an offer in 1857 to chair obstetrics in Zurich.
As for whether or not he was vindicated…I guess I can’t take anything for granted but as far as I know his beliefs in the importance of antiseptic technique are followed by virtually everyone and he is recognized as one of the pioneers of modern medicine., with a University and at least 1 museum and hospital bearing his name.
Tim, I’m not going to point fingers.
I’m not trying to do so either — as I’ve said many times, I respect your choice, however much I might disagree with it.
And just about everyone that relies on the “current studies show no link between vaccines and autisms” is just blindly following them, because those studies are based on faulty date.
Here I have to protest again, though. I appreciate that, for possibly the first time in this thread, you’re giving a possible REASON for the studies to be in error rather than dismissing them as government conspiracies and so forth … but is your argument really that there hasn’t been a single accurate “mainstream” study on the effects of vaccinations? That strikes me as a somewhat extreme viewpoint — not necessarily wrong, obviously, but certainly far off the beaten path.
Honestly, most studies (in general) are pretty above-board about the circumstances in which they were conducted and about the possible limitations of generalizing from them. That doesn’t stop people from overgeneralizing, certainly, but that’s not the fault of the studies. Nor is it wholly the fault of the people in question, I might add — I’ll take several well-conducted-but-limited study results that have undergone peer review before I’ll take nothing but anecdotal evidence.
I would like to know the basis on which you claim that vaccine-connected incidents are underreported, though.
Research that openly examines more cases of injury and death following vaccination would sway me
Can you define “openly”? How are the current researches not doing so?
although again my kids do show some signs that all is not normal, so I would still probably choose personally not to vaccinate short of an actual outbreak.
That’s certainly your choice and your right. My sister-in-law is prone to seizures, for example, so a lot of her medical choices are obviously very different from mine.
TWL
Doctors almost never record or report incindence of injury or death after vaccination as being linked to the vaccination. It’s usually listed as linked to a fever or some kind of allergic reaction, but rarely does the report even mention the vaccine. Because of this, autopsies will not look for vaccine related markers, or follow-up treatment will not consider that the vaccine might have triggered something.
Essentially, because the medical community on the whole doesn’t think there’s a link, few are reporting any connection, even when the onset of the injury occurs in close proximity to the shots. There’s a circular logic fault where the medical community is told the vaccines aren’t the cause, so they don’t report it even when there’s evidence to suggest that there might be something we should be concerned with. Because of this, the cases that need to be studied…those that would produce more definitive results…often are overlooked.
What I suspect is that since autism is now condiered to be a spectrum, if vaccines do have any connection to any incidents, it’s getting lost in what can only be described as an explosion of autism. That in fact what we’re calling autism is more than a spectrum of effects, but that it’s a series of symptoms with multiple causes. The fact that some parents have been able to lesson or eliminate some autistic traits suggests that there’s more going on than just one set of injuries.
That all sounds very reasonable, Bobb. Thanks.
TWL
I know some people for whom the “CURRENT studies showing no link…” is enough to throw a lot of doubt on something. The thinking there—“If the current studies don’t show it, there HAS to be studies later that WILL!!”
I’d like to offer a link to The Chelation Kid, a webcomic dedicated to telling the story of one family’s experience with autism.
Now, as this is a story from someone who believes that Thimerasol caused the autism, it is very much written in that slant. But the incidents that they go through trying to figure out what happened and what to do are very moving. Also, even though it is a serious comic, there is humor, too.
http://www.insightstudiosgroup.com/fundays/ff_archive.html
If you search ‘Chelation Kid’, you’ll also come up with a link to Web Comics Nation, but this link is to an archive of the strips and may be easier to use.
And Tim—
My favorite teacher in high school was the physics/chemistry teacher. He was a bit quick to anger if we acted out in class, but truly did appreciate a practical joke. Such as making a paste that exploded when jarred after it had dried. He would put a moist dollop on a piece of cardboard before a class started, then about half way through class, he would wad up a piece of paper and through it in the basket, with explosive results. Kept us on our toes. He’d probably get fired for such things today.
Okay, y’all hit one of my hot buttons here.
Autism, as has been mentioned, is a matter of neuroanatomy. There are differences in the structure of the hypothalamus and amygdala, less function in the so-called “mirror neurons” of the parietal lobes, and sometimes narrowing of the connections between cerebral halves.
It is not – it cannot be – induced postpartum. It is not a matter of neurochemistry, nor of lesions of the cerebral matter, but rather of the basic structure of the brain.
In cases of autism where the parents say there were no symptoms before “onset”. they were fooling themselves. I’ve found that a lot of parents are very good at denying to themselves that there’s anything “wrong” with their child. They think their child is just having problems with enunciation, when in fact the child has yet to proceed past babbling. Then, when they can no longer pretend, they feel there must be something at fault.
I knew from infancy that my daughter was different. I did not realize at first that she was so quiet as an infant because the concept of using one’s voice for communication was foreign to her; but when she was diagnosed, I was honest enough with myself to look back and see she had always been autistic. (It may also be noteworthy that she did not receive her “2-year” shots until after she was diagnosed, as we did not have medical insurance at the time.) It thus came as little surprise to me when I was diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome a year later.
As for “epidemic”, it is instructive to note that the statistics cited to support this generally compare autism diagnosis rates in 1980 with those in 2000 – sometimes they go as far as comparing rates in 1990 with those in 2005. However, the ICD-10, with the first diagnostic criteria for Asperger’s Syndrome, PDD-NOS, and Nonverbal Learning Disorder, was not published until 1991; its American equivalent, the DSM-IV, in 1994. In other words, the year chosen for a baseline did not even include diagnostic criteria for many Autism-Spectrum Disorders (ASDs), which would be about as accurate as comparing literacy rates in 1450 and 1950, and claiming there must have been a sudden jump in human evolution over that time frame.
As for David Kirby, yes, as has been mentioned above, he is a notorious apologist for the Mercury Militia. Further, note please that every word he writes is in Op-Ed form; he does not pretend to be a reporter, and has no truck with journalistic objectivity.
Claim whatever ills you like for vaccinations (although history argues against you); but please, for Kanner’s sweet sake, stop trying to claim autism is “caused by” a shot!
Jenny McCarthy was on Larry King tonight to talk about autism with some doctors. Generally I can’t stand her, but she is a mother of an autistic child and I wanted to hear what an anti-vaccine person said in response to Doctors.
(She says she’s not anti-vaccine but “anti-schedule”. As far as I could tell, that means she thinks children should receive less vaccines.)
All the show did was remind me of how much I can’t stand Jenny McCarthy. She got 10 minutes to present her point of view, then she would let the three Doctors finish anything they said. One of them would start talking about what studies have shown and she’d interrupt to say. He’d get a little farther and she’d interrupt again, then Larry would ask another Doctor something instead of letting the first one finish. Then Jenny would interrupt that one, too.
An absolute unwillingness to listen to anyone else does not convince me that she knows what she’s talking about. Not that I ever considered Jenny McCarthy to be a good source of knowledge to begin with.
Sorry, the link to the Chelation Kid archives is slightly broken. Only the first 115 episodes are available there.