Remember that name. I suspect you’ll be hearing it a lot as possible court proceedings ensue.
She was an 11 year old girl who was diabetic. And as she spent the last month of her life writhing in agony, vomiting, her body shutting down, her parents did not obtain the treatment that could have saved her life. Instead they prayed for God to save her.
It reminds one of the story of the man who ignored a radio report that flood waters were rising, refusing to leave his house because he was convinced that God would save him. As the waters rose, two guys in a boat came by and said, “Climb in!” And he said, “No. God will save me.” As he clambered onto his roof, a helicopter flew past and said, “We’ll throw you down a rope ladder! Climb up!” And he said, “No, God will save me.” And the man drowned. And when he found himself before God, he said, “I’ve spent my life being devout and singing your praises, and you didn’t save me!” And God said, “I sent you a radio report, a boat and a helicopter. What are you DOING here?”
I wonder what He will say to Madeline Kara Neumann. “Sorry your parents were such fools?”
The truly infuriating thing is that even the Bible–or at least the New American Bible, in the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus 38:1-15)–addresses this very notion:
“Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession. From God the doctor has his wisdom, and the king provides for his sustenance. His knowledge makes the doctor distinguished, and gives him access to those in authority.
God makes the earth yield healing herbs which the prudent man should not neglect; was not the water sweetened by a twig that men might learn his power?
He endows men with the knowledge to glory in his mighty works, through which the doctor eases pain and the druggist prepares his medicines; thus God’s creative work continues without cease in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
My son, when you are ill, delay not, but pray to God, who will heal you: flee wickedness; let your hands be just, cleanse your heart of every sin; offer your sweet-smelling oblation and petition, a rich offering according to your means.
Then give the doctor his place lest he leave; for you need him too. There are times that give him an advantage, and he too beseeches God that his diagnosis may be correct and his treatment bring about a cure.
He who is a sinner toward his Maker will be defiant toward the doctor.”
Ðámņ straight. There is far more to the notion of divine intervention than unexplained miracles. Giving doctors the skill to cure patients is miraculous. Life itself is miraculous. It is tragic that there are those who are so blinded by fervor that they cannot see the divinity of what is right in front of them, and even more tragic when those depending upon them lose their lives because of that blindness.
PAD
• 
Every so often I’m tempted to assemble “The Bible As People Think It Is” or something along those lines. A heavily redacted Bible that only has the bits and pieces that people actually use to justify their actions, plus quotables (like John 3:16 or the beatitudes) and extraBiblical texts (such as the Passion story) that people assume are in the Bible.
It’d be pretty short, maybe the Gideon people could hand it out instead.
This falls into what I always say when religious folks try to say we can’t use the technology and knowledge that scientific research yields.
If God created and started everything and knows the whole plan, then why did he give us the knowledge and ability to do these things if he didn’t want us to use it?
God helps those who help themselves, and we shouldn’t waste our God given talents then.
Sorry for the multiple posts. computer acting strange today.
(LIST MOM: I fixed it. The system has been rather funky today)
“plus quotables (like John 3:16 or the beatitudes) and extraBiblical texts (such as the Passion story) that people assume are in the Bible.”
Uh… are you saying the Passion story in NOT in the Bible? I’m pretty sure it’s in there 3 or 4 times.
Even the Amish believe in modern medicine.
To paraphrase Doonesbury, the wonderful thing about modern medicine is that it’s … intelligently designed.
TWL
I assume these were Christian Scientists or the like.
Stupid. Like I tell my prophet, I tell him that earthly problems should be dealt with by earthly means.
Of course, I also tell him that he should eat and drink as he wishes and should imbibe whatever makes his earthly form feel pleasure but never do anything to excess. To live a sober life is not in the universe’s plan for Man. It is antithetical to a balanced existence. Balance in all things, I say. All things except humor. Humor should be man’s one and only excess, though he should have as many vices as his body can handle.
I really wish he wasn’t so lazy and got on the ball, I’m constantly handing him all this pearls of wisdom and he talks about starting the Church Of El Coyote, but keeps putting it off.
But that’s Prophet’s for you, the good ones are never truly sure of themselves, while the bad ones, or the ones who have named themselves so, are so sure of their connection to the Divine that they never take the time to think things through.
Peter, were these people Christian Scientists? (I see Coyote asked the same question). Do you have a link to a story on this?
The report I saw said that they belonged to no organized religion and did not attend any local church (which must come as a great relief to those churches).
People like this pretend to be full of faith but they are essentially daring God to show himself to them. Oh sure, other people may have to get medical help for their kids but not Dale and Leilani Neumann–they’re so special that God will surely perform a miracle so spectacular that everyone will know just how special they are!
According to w*w.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html the mother still thinks her daughter might be resurrected. The police chief is quotes as saying that Madeline’s 3 siblings are not considered to be in any danger. I disagree.
Here’s my question for the Neumann’s–will they now put their faith in God to get them out of this trouble through prayer or will they hire a lawyer? Anyone want to take bets?
That is awful. Not just because of the tragedy but because of the attitude that caused it. You want to trust your own health to faith, fine, I can’t stop you, but don’t you dare drag a child into it. Did the child have a choice in praying or getting medicine?
I believe that prayer is a beautiful and wonderful thing and I love how some people draw strength from it, but I never understand the attitude that it’s a cure-all. People believe in free will but then expect that God will take care of them like favorite pets. Free will means you get off your ášš and help yourself. There is no free ride.
God, that makes me angry.
George: the full story, with the fourteen stages and all that, is a medieval invention that people often assume is in the Bible. Parts of it are in the Bible, but not all the stuff people assume is.
Reminds me of a case out here in Indiana a few years ago. It involved a young couple from a small denominational church whose members also believed that prayer was all that was needed to heal the sick. Their infant daughter came down with some deadly condition or other (I don’t have kids myself so the name of this condition had no reason to stick in my memory) that a trained kids’ doctor could have diagnosed in roughly ten minutes and prescribed cheap medicine to cure. The couple chose prayer alone instead. Kid died. Parents went on trial and were found guilty of neglect and _maybe_ voluntary manslaughter as well, I don’t totally recall. What I do recall well was a local columnist writing about the case and expressing her disgust about the parents’ attitude towards their daughter’s death and their subsequent conviction and sentence. Evidently the parents had a smuggish attitude (or simply came across as having one), deciding the loss of their daughter and their upcoming stint in prison was all God’s Will, and they were going to bear their burden with pride.
So if it’s any consolation to the PADguy, there’s at least one similar case where the judge and jury didn’t buy a religious pratices defense (or whatever the legal name of that arguement would be) that can be used as a precedent. On the other hand, there’s also a recent case I read about where a judge threw out fingerprint evidence in a criminal trial because she wasn’t convinced that the science behind them was sound, so a precedent might not mean much on this case either.
Chris
I’m an atheist, but even I’ll say, “Amen to that.”
That poor little girl. My heart goes out to her, and her parents should be rankly ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen.
PAD, that is exactly the story that always comes to my mind when I hear about things like this or run into Christian Scientists.
Seriously, folks. If you’re so deferential to “God”, who do you think you are that you can dictate what form the miracle takes?
Hypocrites, selfish hypocrites. The whole lot of them.
What a truly tragic story. And, unfortunately, I am sure it is not the only one.
Many medical advances have been made by Christians, so it does amaze me when some claim to rely on “faith” rather than common sense. Even the Apostle Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach’s sake, not just to pray and hope the ailment went away.
This really has little to do with a form of Christianity or religion and more to do with the ignorance and stubbornness of some warped individuals. As such, I fear things like this will continue no matter what the belief system that is used as an excuse.
Iowa Jim
I agree that the parents’ behavior was inexcusable, but want to point out that Ecclesiasticus, or the Book of Sirach, appears in Christian Bibles among the Apocrypha, rather than the canonical books. A fundamentalist might reject it as having any validity (I suppose – I don’t base my own behavior exclusively on Biblical injunction. If I did, Leviticus would be a serious problem.).
A fundamentalist might reject it as having any validity
Actually, most Protestants do not consider that book as authoritative, not just Fundamentalists.
Interpretations of the Old Testament vary. But most of Christianity does not see the Old Testament applying to us in all aspects. It was written to the nation Israel. The New Testament indicates (clearly, in my opinion), that the burden of the Old Testament law was removed. That does not mean some things (adultery, for example) is now ok. But it is now a moral, not a civil code. (Hence, many conservative Christians wanted separation of church and state when this country was founded. Obviously, current conservative Christianity has somewhat blurred that line.)
Iowa Jim
It is sad, but typical of so many of the evengelicals to choose one passage from the Bible, yet ignore others. Also, if they spoke to their pastor or minister (as these folks always seem to do), should not she or he told them of this verse? Just wondering.
I will agree with Iowa Jim that most Protestants would not see the Apocrypha as authoritative. I certainly don’t, despite the passage PAD quoted being very good sense. As for some general Protestant approach to the Old Testament, I think that varies by denomination, congregation and individual. Many fundamentalists would consider it quite authoritative, indeed, and build frightening sermons from its harsher passages. I favor seeing the New Testament as replacing Old Testament rules (for myself, rather than society as a whole) where there is a conflict, but many people see fewer contradictions than I do.
If one is single- and closed-minded enough, one can find justification to behave wrongly in the teachings of virtually any religion. There are fools and monsters in every religious body.
I’m reminded of a couple stories about my Great Aunts (My Grandfathers sisters) who were Christian Scientists.
I have had problems with my back and my Aunt asked me, during one extremly nasty bout, how I was feeling, I told her not so good, and she asked if I had considered a second opinion which kind of blew me away. And then when they were in thier senior home my mother told them that if we were to find them in need of medical aide that we would not hesitate to call an ambulance to which she replied, of course thats what you will do.
I dont know if this made them “bad” Christian Scientists but they both lived into thier 80’s
Maybe they had a doctor on the side that none of us knew about.
Pat, apparently Christian Scientists are allowed to seek medical help without any danger of being kicked out of the church (as would, I think, happen to a Jehovah’s Witness who took a blood donation. If I understand their theology correctly they believe that some kind of prayer healing is preferable but since it may not always be possible to get quality prayer other means may be used.
(I also recall a study that reported that Christian Scientists had a significantly shorter lifespan than no members. While it’s easy to imagine how such a study could be faulty–might many members have joined after conventional medicine has failed to cure their ailments–it seems to me that a reasonably good study could be done that would take such variables into account. At the very least, I would expect that not believing in the existence of pathogens would make them very susceptible during epidemics.
That is indeed maddening to think about, the way she suffered.
If somebody wants to subject himself to that kind of torment in the name of his faith, that’s his business…but let your kids make up their own mind about whether it’s bûllšhìŧ or not, and whether seeing a doctor will equal eternal dámņáŧìøņ or not.
Speaking of eternal dámņáŧìøņ, I know that this is off-topic and I’m sorry but one thing you said reminded me of a sentiment expressed in a FNSM story you wrote. “Life itself is miraculous,” you write. In FNSM, Quentin Beck comes back because he has seemingly gone to hëll for committing suicide. The reason for this is because he was given the gift of life, which is supposed to be precious, and he rejected it because it got too painful for him. For that, he apparently deserved to suffer even worse in God’s opinion.
I don’t think life is actually a precious gift in itself. Being born is a roll of the dice; you might be born into privilege, or with a loving family that supports you, or with an abusive family that is awful to you, or into poverty, or a Christian Scientist family like this one…you just never know. For some people it isn’t a gift, it’s a curse. Maybe if they tried really hard for a really long time, they could overcome that curse and make their lives into something good. But if they instead choose to expedite their inevitable death, that’s understandable. It’s totally understandable for somebody to want their suffering to end, and it would be the height of cruelty for God to be angry at them for that and say that they deserve even worse suffering.
Or to put it another way, if God gets angry at somebody who commits suicide to escape a life of nothing but suffering, it’s as reasonable as if I spent a lot of money on a lobster dinner for a friend and my friend said “I’m sorry, but I’m allergic. I would get sick if I ate that.” I wouldn’t get angry at my friend for rejecting a gift that–while many other people would love to have it–would be bad for him. I would accept it.
Bill says: Pat, apparently Christian Scientists are allowed to seek medical help without any danger of being kicked out of the church (as would, I think, happen to a Jehovah’s Witness who took a blood donation
I think Jehovah’s Witness are more strict, though we have treated many in our Emergency Dept. They will absolutly not take any blood products. Not even their own if they were to plan ahead. I asked a pt. who was a Witness why?, (because I had no clue and always wondered and the opportunity presented itself so I took advantage), he was more then happy to explain that they do not believe the human body should ever consume blood.
It was funny, the admitting Dr. came into the room during the time I was in there, I was drawing blood samples and he made a big deal about making sure the pt. knew he understood the giving blood issue and that we were just going to test the blood. The pt. just rolled his eyes at me.
might many members have joined after conventional medicine has failed to cure their ailments
That would make sense, they both were late converts not sure at what age though, apparently they joined to beat drinking problems.
I would like to propose, for the consideration of the Deity (be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin), the creation of s new Circle devoted specifically to parents like this.
They probably meant well, Mike. Maybe they thought that as bad as their daughter was suffering right now, she’d suffer even worse in the afterlife if they took her to a doctor.
I don’t think people who deny their kids these kinds of things should be allowed to raise kids, but as horrible as Madeline’s pain was, it’s important to remember that they weren’t taking pleasure in her suffering. They were just delusional. (At least I hope so.)
Mike W, you are a fluke of the universe.
Pat, the JH opposition to blood is just plain goofy–the bible says specifically that it is against blood eating. To make that into a taboo on transfusions seems a ridiculous stretch.
This reminds me of this family on Dr Phil one day (I despise him, but my girlfriend for some reason loves the show)…
The husband had his family living in poverty, about to lose their home, and he claimed God spoke to him and told him to go into business selling that spray to put on license plates so people could avoid tickets.
Dr Phil brought a priest on to quote from the Bible and show the guy how wrong he was, and the guy would just turn around and quote other verses.
In the meantime Dr Phil was like: So God told you it was ok to break the law?
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
TWL
I was never really a fan of Babylon 5, but one of the episodes I really did like was the one with the space alien JWs who slaughtered their child after the doctor administered life saving treatment against their will.
You are talking about aliens, Nick Eden. Of course we humans should respect their laws and traditions but when they are in conflict with ours, on human territory, human values and laws count. If an alien wants to do something that is legal for him, he has to do so on his territory, alien worlds and ships in question, for example.
The aliens in question were on Babylon 5 and the child was in the care of a human doctor. Dr. Franklin did what he had to do – and the parents of that child followed their own laws and customs. Both were right and that made this story so moving and tragic.
The unfortunate girl was not an alien from a different world. She was a human being. I don`t know US laws but here in Britain, children who are refused life saving treatments can be put under the protection of a court becoming a “ward of court”.
As I keep saying, give me one single example of a religious value that is worth defending – and I mean religious, not human values. I can`t think of any. This is another example of many that shows me that the world would be a much better place without any religion.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
be he Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin
And just remember that two wrongs never make a right … but that three lefts do.
I only wish these people were flukes of the universe.
Baerbel Haddrell: “As I keep saying, give me one single example of a religious value that is worth defending – and I mean religious, not human values. I can`t think of any. This is another example of many that shows me that the world would be a much better place without any religion.”
Actually, last week I finished reading the book “God is not great” by Christopher Hitchens. While I do feel he’s a bit pushy at times (there are worse tirades) he does make some strong cases in that religion (all of them) on the whole has done far more harm in the world than good, this case being a shining example. I do recommend the book anyway.
Also, numerous studies have shown there is a strong link between extreme religion (think SKing’s Carrie’s mother) and schizophrenia. People who cannot separate religion from real life literally are not in their right mind. Does anyone really believe the post-partum-depressed mother was told by God to kill her baby? The court can’t have it both ways. If their delusions were anything but religious, the State would step in and save the child, but the minute you label something as religious in nature, no one wants to intervene.
What a spineless shame.
Rob Brown: but as horrible as Madeline’s pain was, it’s important to remember that they weren’t taking pleasure in her suffering. They were just delusional. (At least I hope so.)
I understand what you’re saying, but I disagree. I think there was a certain amount of, if not pleasure, something appealing to them in what they were doing. Satisfaction, a sense of righteousness or piety. There was some measure of satisfaction for them in this.
No person who has any sense of compassion (let along a parent who supposedly loves their child) would sit by and watch another’s suffering, prolonged suffering, unless there is some other positive feeling they get to offset the discomfort they supposedly feel.
“Am I glad my child is hurting? No, absolutely of course not. But I do feel some slight measure of pride at the strength of my faith and the example I’m setting.” Something.
However strong their feelings for their child, there was selfishness here. And their child died for it.
I was kind of hoping that that B5 episode would end with the revelation that the parents had been right…because they’re aliens, and they know how their species works better than human Dr. Franklin, thank you very much.
Posted by: Baerbel Haddrell
You are talking about aliens, Nick Eden. Of course we humans should respect their laws and traditions but when they are in conflict with ours, on human territory, human values and laws count. If an alien wants to do something that is legal for him, he has to do so on his territory, alien worlds and ships in question, for example.
There is a story from the days of the Raj – a local rajah had died, and his ministers were planning a traditional funeral and pyre for him, including forcing his young wife to be burnt alive on his pyre with him.
The British Commisioner for the district allowed as how this was not right, and he didn’t think he could permit it.
The ministers in question reminded him of a recent decree from London that the people were to be allowed to follow local customs, and that suttee was one of their customs.
The Commissioner said that he could understand that, but that he was bound to follow *his* people’s customs – one of which was hanging murderers…
The unfortunate girl was not an alien from a different world. She was a human being. I don`t know US laws but here in Britain, children who are refused life saving treatments can be put under the protection of a court becoming a “ward of court”.
We have such laws here in the States, but whether you can get such a declaration depends on the attitudes of the judge you draw, and it may take a while … time that can run out in a case like this.
Makes me wish there were the prosecutorial equivalent of the Comic Book Defense League Fund where we could contribute to help prosecute idiots such as that.
Posted by Bill Mulligan at March 26, 2008 04:46 PM
Pat, the JH opposition to blood is just plain goofy–the bible says specifically that it is against blood eating. To make that into a taboo on transfusions seems a ridiculous stretch.
Yeah, I agree. I guess to each their own. I was going to tell him we dont make you drink it. We often talk at work of what would happen if someone of either of those faiths showed up needing medical aide without us knowing their beliefs and them being unable to tell us for whatever reason, what would happen. i mean I know what we would do, which is obvious, they get treated but we wonder if they would raise a stink.
Im sure this has had to of happened somewhere by now.
One of the themes of “No Country For Old Men” as it was presented in the film was that progress depends on a detachment from reality, with Tommy Lee Jones tying the aftermath of the seemingly-arbitrary behavior of the killer all together at the end with his dream of his father delivering fire.
Being wrong doesn’t mean these people were insincere, and it doesn’t mean they feel any less of the pain of parents who make no mistake and lose their child anyway. There is no hëll to carve out for these people they don’t already inhabit.
From my wonderfully atheistic viewpoint and my limited interest thereby, I do recall that all bible-based theology admits one point without any room for wiggle.
Our creator endowed us with free will and intelligence, and enabled us to use one, the other, or both at the same time.
Fact: we have PROVEN that insulin works to treat most type-1 diabetes, and most of the rest just need a supplement to go with it.
They chose to rely on a deity who is worshiped by as many names as the supposed miracles that accompany them. Even when His Presence was more active on our sphere, He was known to be capricious. In His defense, I’ve seen things I can’t explain. I’ve experienced love, and I’ve known things that have moved me in every fiber of my being, maybe even in my soul.
And this one scares me. Legally, this could set a BAD precedent. Morally, imho, it’s reprehensible, both on the parts of the parents and the local law enforcement who failed to help this girl. And does anyone know what MADELEINE’S viewpoint was on the subject? And I don’t want to hear she was just a kid. I was legally a minor when I stopped going to shul, but since I had completed an arbitrary ceremony I was a man in their viewpoint and allowed to behave as I wished.
According to my heritage(and Peter’s and many others on the board, I am sure), I’m supposed to practice 613 rules to ensure God’s continued love of me. I have my reasons for not practicing. My brother is a devout orthodox man who broke one of the Big Ten trying to interpret the Talmud according to his rabbi’s standards. And let’s leave my family out of this; if God does exist, how am I supposed to know which way out of the ways available to me is the one He wants to be worshiped through? For all I can prove, my bar mitzvah may have been the equivalent of giving him a hot foot if I didn’t do it right…or even if I did.
The amount of good that’s done in the name of religion is astounding. The amount of evil that uses the aforementioned good as a cloak is probably at least as weighty on the world’s karmic scales. I think that when I die, if I am held accountable for my deeds by a celestial host, I will be able to say without fear, “I tried to be a good man. I saw your works and I questioned them, and I tried to leave the world a better place for my having been there and to not intentionally harm my fellow man.” I hope that will be enough for any reasonable deity to accept.
These parents definitely had the faith I lack, but they fall into a third category of right and wrong in religion for me: the well intentioned idiot. God will take care of our daughter! Science is the devil’s tool!
May they be judged as I would be judged: for the deeds they performed on this Earth.
meant to leave my e-mail address visible for those who are in the know. chefjbc@yahoo.com
While the notion that no religion is literal is controversial to fundamentalists, there is practically no disagreement that words are not the things they represent. If we can’t do without something as dead as language, arguing the deadness of religion doesn’t disqualify its representational value.
We are creatures of reason and experience. Our experiences are in 4 dimensions, but the thinking with which we represent and portray our experiences can be reduced to the single dimension of language. We have some archetypal representation of our relationship between our reason and our experience in the form of Jungian analysis — and almost no one here has picked up on it. The dimensional gap of our reason and our experience is predominantly represented to us in the form of religion.
You have the book of Job, where Job calls out God to answer for allowing him to be punished in spite of his piety, and God responds that He has discretion as the creator of everything. In the Koran, Satan didn’t refuse to bow to man out of pride; like Olive in “Little Miss Sunshine,” Satan disobeyed Allah out of his devotion to Him. Buddhism highlights the gap between reason and experience with the contradictions in the reductio ad absurdum that Peter has argued doesn’t disqualify anything.
The world would not be better without religion simply because religion is our primary means to demonstrate the very true notion that reason cannot be all things to anyone. If reason could be all things to anyone, we wouldn’t tolerate parents responding to their children, “because I said so,” or with any discretion on their part whatsoever.
Posted by: Sean D. Martin at March 26, 2008 08:22 PM
I understand what you’re saying, but I disagree. I think there was a certain amount of, if not pleasure, something appealing to them in what they were doing. Satisfaction, a sense of righteousness or piety. There was some measure of satisfaction for them in this.
I guess it could’ve been like that. If so, if they were at any point thinking more of themselves than their daughter, if they were in any way proud of themselves as you suggest they might have been, I’d find that pretty despicable.
But again we do not know the full story. All we get is bits and pieces. Take for example a story out of Texas. I forget the names, but here it goes. A little girl was being treated for cancer and it went into remission. When she was taking the treatments, they made her very ill. Loss of hair, weight loss and so forth. Her parents feared the treatment more than the cancer. Her cancer came back and the parents did not want to treat her again. She was taken from them. Now what irks me about this situation is the fact that the parents decision was overidden by those who thought they knew better. The road to Hëll is paved with good intentions. Though their situation was personal and not religious reasons the situations are similar. Some people believe no matter what we do, the outcome is in God’s hands, whether you seek treatment or you do not. I personally do not know what to believe. I think unless the intent is proven to be ill-well(did I spell this right), the parents decision should be their decision. My personal belief is everything happens for a reason. Only God knows why.
Jay: And does anyone know what MADELEINE’S viewpoint was on the subject? And I don’t want to hear she was just a kid. I was legally a minor when I stopped going to shul, but since I had completed an arbitrary ceremony I was a man in their viewpoint and allowed to behave as I wished.
I think her wishes should’ve been a factor too, Jay, whatever those wishes were. But…
First, it’s really tough to decide this sort of thing for yourself when you are raised in a faith like this and you’ve got your parents hovering over you the whole time telling you that you’re doing the right thing by not seeing a doctor. If she started out willing to try only prayer but after a while changed her mind and said she wanted to see a doctor, and her parents said “Oh honey, no, don’t say that, seeing a doctor would be wrong. Try to be strong, God will get you through this, etc”, they might very well be successful in convincing her to just lie there and rely on prayer. They were her parents, after all. So during that time, it was probably difficult for her to have her own viewpoint for very long.
Second, since her wishes do indeed matter, if at any point she decided that her well-being was more important than the faith she was raised in (and she probably did have a moment like that given how bad things got for her) and she asked for a doctor, IMO her parents had a duty to take her to one. It was what she wanted, and dammit, when you are in terrible pain and you can stop it without hurting anybody else, you should have the right to do that. It’s similar logic to my feelings about why suicides do not deserve hëll; they were only trying to put an end to their suffering. Madeline, by asking to see a doctor even though her faith supposedly forbade that, would have only been trying to put an end to her suffering. There is nothing wrong with that and nobody, not even her parents, should have tried to stop her.
Posted by Mike at March 27, 2008 12:10 AM: You have the book of Job, where Job calls out God to answer for allowing him to be punished in spite of his piety, and God responds that He has discretion as the creator of everything.
Which makes about as much sense as saying “I created my daughter, so I have discretion to beat her as often and as severely as I want.” No way. Screw that. That’s inexcusable, whether it’s coming out of the mouth of a human being or the Creator of the Universe. And if there is a God and I go to hëll for saying so, so be it. I’d probably already be going to hëll for a lot of other things anyway.
It isn’t fair or reasonable, but by definition of “Creator of the Universe,” it’s perfectly sensible. Your analogy doesn’t apply because no man is the creator of everything.