Took Ariel into the city to meet Ken Jennings, Jeopardy’s all-time champ, who was doing a book signing at the B&N in Union Square. Nattily attired, he kept the audience entertained with a discussion and selected readings of his latest book, “Brainiac” (which, tragically, has nothing to do with supervillains) while discussing his slow progression from closeted trivia master to the poster boy for knowing tons of information others would deem useless (although how anyone can deem something useless when you can use it to rake in $2 milliion-plus is beyond me.)
Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. Whether it’s the disdainful description of experts on topics as “geeks” or “nerds,” or the fact that a minuscule percentage of the consumer base is responsible for the vast majority of books bought, or…let’s face it…that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency…there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.
I’d like to claim that Jennings’ book is next on my list to read–we got two signed copies, one for Ariel, the other for Kath and myself–but it was abruptly displaced when I noticed to my shock that there was a John Mortimer “Rumpole” novel out that somehow slipped under my radar when it came out in 2004. It’s entitled “The Penge Bungalow Murders,” which Rumpole fans will instantly know as the case the British barrister (so memorably played by the late, great Leo McKern) regularly cited as his career highlight. It’s like stumbling over a Conan Doyle manuscript entitled, “The Adventure of the Giant Rat of Sumatra.” But “Brainiac”–which is not merely autobiographical, but instead an overview of the grand obsession of trivia–is right after that.
Strangest question Jennings got: An arena battle between a T-Rex and one thousand turkeys. Who would win? Jennings opined that it would likely be the T-Rex, but I’m not sure about that. Assuming that the T-Rex would probably be eating the turkeys as he went, I’d think all that tryptophan might start to make him drowsy, and the turkeys could eventually wear him down. In terms of pointless discussions, it’s probably right up there with cavemen versus astronauts.
PAD
• 
You know, it just occurred to me — if the post-Crisis Kryptonian turkeys are from the Byrne revamp era, during which Krypton was portrayed as a cold, emotionless and sterile world… would they be cold turkeys?
I know, I know, that was bad… but I couldn’t resist.
I have no idea why I’m on this Kryptonian turkey riff. But now that I am I just can’t seem to stop myself.
Dan Nakasagi asked:
“Have you listened to Country Western Music lately?”
Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today’s so-called Country Western is banal.
I’m not a big fan of Rap, either, but Eminem is a f888ing genius.
“Beer for My Horses”
What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?
Thinking of the two Bush campains, and what I kept hearing is “They think Bush is a better candidate because he’s the kind of guy they’d like to sit and have a beer with.” I always wanted to shake these people by the shoulders and say “What do you want, someone to lead the country or someone to sit at the bar with?”
Y’know, I’ve always gotten a kick out of this notion since Bush, being a former alcoholic (or a dry drunk), would theoretically not have a beer with *anyone*.
Of course, the Onion has its own take on the phenomenon: “Long-Awaited Beer With Bush Really Awkward, Voter Reports” (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42590).
Jim in NC said:
“Bill Gates did pretty good as a businessman without a college degree.”
That is an exceptional case. Using one case to argue a point is just plain dishonest. In a country of almost 300,000,000 people, even a thousand or two stories about successful people who did not get a degree doesn’t properly illustrate a point.
My friend was having trouble convincing her son of the importance of attending college. He finally “got it” when he found out that college graduates, on average, make twice as much as those who only have a high school degree.
“The government already pays for 12 years of education for kids.”
No, the government does not pay for that. YOU DO. It is part of making a better society. People with no education at all are more likely to live in poverty and are more likely to commit crimes.
Better educated people are more likely to get better paying jobs, which leads in turn to more tax income for the federal, state, and local governments, which makes for better roads and cleaner and safer water, to name two specific benefits of people having more education.
[b]Posted by Bill Myers
Some people recognize the need to do more than that. Some of us want to understand things, so we can be in the driver’s seat of life rather than the passenger’s seat.
[/b]
Bill, how long you going to sit in that driver’s seat when the car’s outta gas and has 4 flats. Get over the fact your car is broken down, either get a new car, fix it or get out and walk, bithin’ about it for years ain’t fixing it.
Eric!, the problem is, voting for president’s not as cut-and-dried as getting your car fixed. For one thing, we’ve got awhile before we vote for the next president. We can’t just, y’know, trade him in anytime we want.
Moreover, when your car’s as busted as the one in your hypothetical, you know it. The issues surrounding the presidency are more complex and take more time to discuss. People of goodwill can even disagree about what, if anything, is broken.
I’m afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren’t enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.
Bill said: I’m afraid your broken car analogy fails because there aren’t enough parallels between it and the discussion surrounding the presidency.
Bill, it’s your car we were sitting in before, now it’s mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I’m sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.
I’ve said this before, but as much fun as it is to pick on Bush for being intellectually challenged, I don’t really think he’s a stupid man, but he is anti-intellectual. I don’t for a second believe he actually read Camus (c’mon, a French author?) or Shakespeare this summer without a promise of free tickets to Six Flags if he finished by Labor Day.
Time and time again, Bush as shown that he is not interested in having his own views challenged. When confronted with two opposing viewpoints, he bases his decision on which side most conforms to his preexisting views, rather than which side made more compelling factual argument. Besides the Iraq and WMD issue that has been discussed to death, there’s also the fact that he is generally hostile to science in general. Again, he consistantly chooses the side which best appeases his base rather than which side has the bulk of scientific evidence behind it.
Now, as to the subject of elitism. I’d love to known where this idea came from that people earning college professor wages have become the “elitists” of this country, but billionaire CEOs and those with the connections to buy a baseball team by calling a few of daddy’s friends are considered just plain ol’ Americans.
Take a college professor and the CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation. Tell me which one is more likely to accepted into an exclusive country club. Then tell me who the real “elites” of this country are.
I’m just amazed (although I shouldn’t be) how quickly and simply that a tale of Ken Jennngs turns into an insult for the President of the United States.
Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.
I’ve studied the man. Why does anyone here think that Senator Kerry has the qualities neccessary to deal with the trials, tribulations and tasks that are for the leader of the free world?
I saw the man speak before the Senate last week, September 6. The occasion was the discussion (a reiteration, of course) for the removal of Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense. Senator Kerry had his chance to speak and spoke not quite of anything about Secretary Rumsfeld but instead repeated the majority of the points, claims, and statements that he made during his failed bid for the Presidency. Before he did that he made some mis-statements about claims of the President and Pro-Victory/Pro-War people and possibly some true statements about inaccurate beliefs that some American people may hold. I don’t know if he ever did get to speaking about Donald Rumsfeld because I got bored and muted him.
The point being I would take plain-spokenness as a sign of intelligentness if it means that in a discussion about condemning a government official you actually lead off by condemning the government official instead of repeating old stuff that never led anywhere anyway.
As far as the T-Rex vs Turkey fight goes, it seems to me to be a no-brainer. Turkeys don’t organize so 1000 or 1 million wouldn’t matter much. They’d be eaten and stomped on and never dream of attacking the dinosaur. If they got hungry they’d eat each other before they’d take on a killing machine like the Tyrannosaurus.
100 midgets vs a T-Rex, now that’s cool.
I think it was Jon Stewart who said, “I don’t want my president to be my drinking partner. I want my president to be the designated driver.”
And Ted Kennedy’s ambitions take another blow.
What are the most popular entertainments today?
NASCAR, professional wrestling, and country western music. Not exactly mind bending activities.
I’m not sure “mind bending” is what we are looking for if we want to increase the national intelligence you are so worried about. If so, I hear that the small white mushrooms you find under cow patties may do the trick.
As for country music, it’s not generally my thing but I would put the best CW music up against the best hip hop and rap and I think the country best would win in terms of artistry involved. Of course, this is subjective and not very useful to the argument at hand. In fact, I don’t think you can draw many valid conclusions from how people entertain themselves–certainly the folks who sniff at those who read mere comic books reveal more about their own ignorance than they do about the targets of their derision.
A recent article I read in USA Today showed that only 17% of the US population graduates college with a 4-year degree. Is it any wonder that other countries are doing so much better in the marketplace today?
Did that USA Today article say anything about how 17% stacks up against other countries? What I’ve read seems to indicate that we are among the most highly educated countries on Earth. At http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-collegeglut.htm they compare us to a bunch and we look pretty good. Now, these statistics can be tricky. Another source–http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/051700-01.htm says that the USA has fallen behind Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands, though with a number of 33 percent graduating from college that sounds a good bit better than USA Today indicated. I am not aware that Norway, Britain, and the Netherlands are exactly killing us in “the marketplace” by the way.
(You have to be very careful in looking at education statistics. When they say that Upper Volta or Left Fenwick have 25% of their students graduate from college, what does that mean? Does everyone even get to be a student or is it just those who can afford it?).
At any rate, I think the reports of our hostility to knowledge are greatly exaggerated. I think we probably DO lead the world in having people who think they are a whole lot smarter than the folks around them.
Posted by: Eric! at September 15, 2006 04:10 PM
Bill, it’s your car we were sitting in before, now it’s mine? Man, you liberals do give away stuff easy (I’m sure somewhere my taxes paid for the car). Yes, Bill it is more complicated than the car, I was talking in your terms. My point is nothing new is being brought to the table about this discussion after all these years.
Eric!, now you’re just playing rhetorical games. My driving analogy was merely about who is in the driver’s seat — in other words, who is taking charge of their own destiny by thinking ahead and planning their trip, instead of letting someone else do that for them. My point was that if you merely live moment-to-moment, only focusing on what’s in front of your nose, you’ll be a passenger on someone else’s trip.
Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.
By the way, I apologize for breaking out of the little box you tried to put me in, but if McCain, a REAL conservative, runs for president in ’08, he’ll probably have my vote.
>Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess.
The problem with this sentence is that “wave” suggests something either recent, or temporary. Given that Dr. Asimov’s 1967 essay THE CULT OF IGNORANCE bemoaned pretty much the same thing, I’d say we’ve got even more to worry about than something that’s merely a passing fad.
Although I quickly become amused, bemused, and then somewhat disapointed that after the antipathy of President Bush is clearly stated, the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.
Really? Because I did a search of this entire page and the comments about Kerry were made by people disparaging him ,ie, saying his grades were lower than Bush’s, or telling everyone “get over” the fact that he lost. I haven’t seen anyone describe him as their “fantasy” chief executive.
Now, I voted for Kerry, but I would have voted for Goofy over Bush. He was never my first choice or even my fifth choice for president. He was, however, the only viable alternative to the four more years of lies and incompetence that we are now stuck with.
Peter made a comment dispairing over how little intellectual achievement is valued in today’s society. While this trend did not start with him, like it or not, Bush does symbolize that. He is not a thinker. Even his college professors described him as a man of limited intellectual curiosity.
Kerry does have a tendency to talk in circles with overly complicated sentences. Sadly, our sound bite political races today have little patience for any candidate that can’t get a point across in under five seconds. I don’t know what kind of president he would have been and we’ll probably never know that.
It is interesting, however, in that a criticism of Bush is immediately countered with a comparison of his grades to Kerry’s. So, is Kerry the “fantasy chief executive” of Bush’s critics, or, having been beaten by them once, the fantasy opponent for Bush’s supporters?
And Ted Kennedy’s ambitions take another blow.
Teddie’s chances of becoming president have been dead in the water (ouch!) for 30 years now.
He hasn’t even tried to run for president since 1980, yet it’s amazing how many people keep bringing him up.
Looking around the blogs, I’d say that Ted Kennedy’s driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.
The first, of course, is Bill Clinton’s pëņìš.
And Bill, this wasn’t directed at you personnally. It’s just something that I find amusing.
and according to my decidedly left-wing public policy class, President Clinton’s nationalized healthcare plan might have gone over better with the general public if it could have been described in a more plainly-spoken fashion.
Re: country music –
I’ll admit that there is more lyrical skill and much (much) more musicianship involved in country than in boy band music – but it’s just as intolerably annoying as boy band junk. Some people have begun bringing their own radios into work recently, and there have been some days when someone has had the country station on. (Luckily, I haven’t had to work within hearing range of such a radio for any long stretches of time.) And I just cannot comprehend why someone would CHOOSE to listen to that ye-haw yodelly twangy annoying garbage. Some of the female singers are less high-pitched accentedly-awful than most of the men, but still… to me, it seems like saying “I will listen to a forty-five minute recording of dentist drills and nails on chalkboards! Woo!”
To: Bill Myers
Re: Cold turkeys
YOU BROKE MY BRAIN.
the general fantasy alternative to the current Chief Executive is the Democrat who ran and lost in the last election.
In whose f***ing universe, Chris? Nobody who’s spoken up on this thread, that’s for sure.
When I think of various fantasy alternative candidates, I could name a few dozen Democrats and at least a few Republicans I’d put ahead of Kerry.
Whlie I disagree with your points most of the time, they do usually qualify as rational. This is not one of those times.
TWL
The turkey question reminded me of a fun little book called GRUDGE MATCH that (sadly) never spawned a second volume. The book set up “battles” between different foes, usually ones selected from pop culture. But one match was “A Rottweiler vs. A Rottweiler’s Weight in Chihuahuas.”
The book was derived from the following website which, though the battles have ended, is still around:
http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html
I think my favorite match-up was “Red-Shirted Ensigns vs. Stormtroopers.”
Re: Bush’s degrees.
Well, as someone who’s attended Yale (admittedly as a grad student to Bush’s undergrad) and been reasonably closely associated with a group of Harvard undergrads, my take on them is as follows;
1) When Bush attended Yale, it was right at the cusp of switching from a serious old boys with a minority of random smart sharp types school to the other way around. Given his legacy status, and the time he was admitted, Bush need not have been anywhere near the level you’d currently associate with a Yale admittee. Especially given his family’s prominence in Connecticut, where Yale is located, politics.
2) Not that well known fact about the top Ivies even today; it’s a lot easier to stay in once admitted than to get in. Harvard’s grade inflation got so bad that a few years ago it was revealed that 90+% of undergrads were graduating with honors and they had to tone it down. Assuming this was also the case in Bush’s time, he would’ve had to make a significant effort to manage to get booted.
Given those factors, and Bush’s own performance, words, and beliefs, I don’t consider him smart or intellectually curious. To put it another way, I can’t see having a real conversation with Bush on issues where he wasn’t sticking to talking points and generalities. I’m honestly not sure if one could have such with Kerry. I have had such with Gore. I’m pretty sure I could have such with either Clinton.
Peter David: Blame part of it on television. Campaigns have become less about who is best qualified to lead, but instead who do people feel at ease aobut “letting into their homes.” They choose presidents the same way they choose what to watch on a Thursday night: By comfort level.
Luigi Novi: Precisely. We’re living in a society where we adjudicate matters of great importance with the thinking of high school cliques. How you look, what clothes you wear, what religion your are, etc., are all actual criteria people use instead of merit or ability. This is a society where two defendants on trial for blowing their parents away with shotguns are perceived by some to have a greater chance of leniency if they’re wearing nice sweaters.
Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.
Peter David: Sometimes I wonder about the wave of genuine hostility to knowledge that many in this country possess. …or…let’s face it…that so many people would embrace someone as intellectually stunted as George W. Bush, twice, for the presidency…there just seems to be this antipathy toward intellect that I find disturbing.
Alan Coil: It’s time for the American people to wake up and realize that intelligence and education are not EVIL. They are a necessity to a growing and thriving country.
Jeff in NC: It’s been shown that GW’s grades were higher than Kerry’s. Plus Bush has a Master’s Degree.
Luigi Novi: Peter and Alan didn’t say anything about grades or degrees. Peter mentioned the antipathy towards knowledge and intellect, and Alan mentioned intelligence and education, which are not synonymous with formal education. The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability.
Eric: Gore and Kerry lost, get over it already.
Luigi Novi: No one mentioned Gore except you, and the only person who mentioned Kerry’s loss in the election before you was Blue Spider, who clearly opined that Kerry did not have greater qualifications than Bush to be President, and Den, who admitted that he didn’t think Kerry was a very good candidate, and who criticized Kerry for his style of speaking.
So whose comments are you responding to?
Looking around the blogs, I’d say that Ted Kennedy’s driving record is second most popular obsession of conservative bloggers.
That’s possible. It’s just an amazing and apalling thing to me that a guy so manifestly evil should have made it this far. He’s the Senator who is most like a fictional character out of Dickens or Lovecraft. “Ted Kennedy at the wheel” is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It’s like “Mirab, his sails unfurled” to a Tamarian.
(And don’t think of Kennedy as a typical liberal, Democrat, or even Kennedy. He’s one of a kind.)
Television may certainly have exacerbated this mentality, though I would even the earliest visual media like photography began it. Anybody know if there’s any truth to the story I was told by a politics instructor in college that the pockmarked-faced Abraham Lincoln grew his beard because of a letter from a girl who told him that he’d make a good President if only he wasn’t so ugly? I could find no mention of it on Snopes.
I remember that story but since most voters never saw the guy they voted for how much of a difference would it have made.
Oops! here’s the story from wiki–Grace Bedell, an 11-year old girl from Westfield, New York, sent Abraham Lincoln a letter on October 15, 1860 (a few weeks before Lincoln was elected President of the United States). Bedell urged Lincoln to grow a beard to improve his appearance. Lincoln responded in a letter on October 19, 1860, making no promises. However, within a month, he grew a full beard.
Dear Sir
My father has just home from the fair and brought home your picture and Mr. Hamlin’s. I am a little girl only 11 years old, but want you should be President of the United States very much so I hope you wont think me very bold to write to such a great man as you are. Have you any little girls about as large as I am if so give them my love and tell her to write to me if you cannot answer this letter. I have got 4 brothers and part of them will vote for you any way and if you let your whiskers grow I will try and get the rest of them to vote for you you would look a great deal better for your face is so thin. All the ladies like whiskers and they would tease their husbands to vote for you and then you would be President. My father is going to vote for you and if I was a man I would vote for you to but I will try to get every one to vote for you that I can I think that rail fence around your picture makes it look very pretty I have got a little baby sister she is nine weeks old and is just as cunning as can be. When you direct your letter direct to Grace Bedell Westfield Chautauqua County New York.
I must not write any more answer this letter right off Good bye
Grace Bedell
Alan Culy (seeing as you insisted on calling me “Dan Nakasagi”) said:
“What kind of crack was he smoking when he wrote that song?”
Oh, come on…the first image that came to mind when I first heard that song was Thor and the Warriors Three sitting down at a table in an Inn, swigging down flaggons of Ale….(grin)–sorry, not into emocons…I need words…
Exciting or Banal is a matter of opinion, not a universal truth– it can based on the individual’s experience and what is available in other genere’s of the day…
And I’m sorry…but ALL RAP SUCKS (in my opinion)…if they were such geniuses, why couldn’t they put their thoughts and feelings into the iambic pentameters of real poetry?
“Ted Kennedy at the wheel” is jyust shorthand for everything that is wrong with things. It’s like “Mirab, his sails unfurled” to a Tamarian.
—————————————–
Would you rather it be “Clinton, his zipper undone” (probably THE most popular obsession…) (grin)?
Would you rather it be “Clinton, his zipper undone” (probably THE most popular obsession…) (grin)?
Well, at least Clinton’s got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. 😉
Well, at least Clinton’s got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. 😉
Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?
You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth. To me, intelligence is like snowflakes–no two are exactly the same, and to imply that one is of more worth than the others just doesn’t make sense.
If you don’t like someone or something, what’s wrong with simply saying ‘I don’t like _____.” Why do people feel that they have to justify it by belittling it?
When you say you like ______, people don’t ask you why you like _____. Yet, if you don’t like _______, it seems as though people simply have to know WHY you don’t like _______.
So then you have to come up with absolutes as to WHY you don’t like______. And because you use absolutes to justify your dislike, people take it as a truth about that person/place/thing.
Its this intelligence thing keeps coming up though–its fast becoming one of my pet peeves.
———————————————
Luigi–“The fact that Bush has such degrees is certainly proof of that, possibly in part because he got into the schools he attended because of family connections, and possibly because school curricula are not the one and only ideal measure of intelligence or worth for all people. But Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be. John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability.”
—————————–
Luigi, I’m sorry, but that’s just misleading—you sound as though you know for a fact that Bush
“he got into the schools he attended because of family connections”–you can’t prove that and you know it.
“John Kerry, at least, does not eschew or disdain intellectual pursuits like reading and proper speaking ability.”
—what good are intellectual pursuits like reading if you’re not going to use the information that you’ve read about? And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
And before you go on to call me a troll, yes, yes, I DO know ‘what you mean.’
I simply don’t like it…
And while we are on the subject of intelligence:
“Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) ARE necessary, even if they’re not perceived to be.”
Education, as it is a topic, takes the singular, not the plural. The sentence should read: Alan’s statement is correct: Education (not necessarily “college” or “degrees”) IS necessary, even if its not perceived to be. (You see,I did not eschew nor disdain English Grammar….(grin))
Craig wrote:
“Well, at least Clinton’s got a legacy that he can hang his hat on. 😉
——————————
And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon…
(although frankly speaking, I really don’t care to actually SEE it….)
Bill Mulligan said:
“Oh THANKS Craig! Ever try to get coffee stains off of a keyboard?”
—————————–
…and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either…
And on a complete different topic, Peter David fans can hear him discuss his current body of work, including “Fall of Knight,” “Soulsearchers and Company,” “Fallen Angel,” “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man,” “X-Factor,” and “Marvel 1602: Fantastick Four” at 11:30 PM EDT tonight when he makes his record-breaking 19th appearance on “Destinies-The Voice of Science Fiction.” For those in the Long Island/Connecticut area, “Destinies” airs on 90.1 FM, WUSB, Stony Brook, NY. Others can listen live through links at http://www.wusb.fm. After the broadcast, the show will be archived and available for free at http://www.captphilonline.com/Destinies.html. And, as a bonus, further down the page on that site, you will be able to hear Peter’s October 24, 2003 appearance on “Destinies.”
And it remains to be seen as to whether Clinton wore an Apple Cap or a Stetson 10-Gallon…
Well, according to Gennifer Flowers he’ll never be on a hung jury…
Novi:
So whose comments are you responding to?
Um, that’d be PAD’s, he mentioned the election Bush won, maybe you’d like to forget who he ran against, but that won’t make it so.
Bill:Your analogy about a broken-down car was something else entirely. And as I pointed out, it fails because it is too dissimilar to that which is being discussed.
My car wasn’t about the election, it was about the same argument that is brought up reguarding the election, and how that is getting nobody anywhere, kind of like a broken car, ypu may be right maybe broken record is better. The usual arguaments:
– Americans are stupid
– Election was stolen
– He didn’t get popular vote yadda yadda on and on……we’ve heard it and it’s nothing new.
Sorry, would have jumped in sooner but wrestling was on. Finley, he loves to fight!!!!
I think some of you guys have been arguing two different things but calling it by the same name. Some of you seem to be making statements that apply to intelligence while other are arguing the finer point of intellect.
Bush does have some intelligence. He has shown the ability to capitalize on what skills he does have, even if his greatest skill was being born to a family with connections, better then most. His grades aren’t necessarily an indicator of his level of intelligence either. I’ve known some people who are terrifyingly brilliant but were just lazy or uninterested while going through school and, as did Bush, scraped by with mostly Ds.
What Bush doesn’t seem to have is intellect. Bush shows that he has very little regard for intellect or intellectual growth. He disdains serious reading, has stated he cares little for watching or reading the news or of the events of the world and has had several rather infamous meetings with experts where he left early and asked for the summery short version notes or highlights for later. His pattern of bankrupting every business that he got hold of while learning no lessons to not bankrupt the next business (or the country) shows either the inability to learn from his past endeavors/mistake or simply no desire to do so. He has also had a publicly know disdain for “intellectuals” that goes back to when his dad was in office that many of his followers hold up as one of his great character assets.
Did his victory really say anything about how the country views intelligence? No. But the statements at the time of the 2000 and 2004 elections do say something about just about half of the U.S. voters. Dig up some old editorials, letters to the editors or transcripts of call in shows on radio and TV. Most of the people who were identifying themselves as Bush backers were talking about how great it was that he wasn’t that bright. A huge number of hosts talked about how Clinton, Gore and Kerry were policy wonks or nerds and how great it would be/was to have a regular Joe as President. A huge number of his own backers were publicly saying how great it was that he didn’t seem as smart as his predecessors and actually attacked his opponents for being smart or having knowledge about policy issues.
And those same people are the ones who seem to most violently hate intellect. Anyone with a degree or a PHD in front of their name is an elite and can’t be trusted. Those elites are out of touch with “regular” America and think they can tell dumb ášš middle America what to do. Scientists aren’t to be trusted and most doctors really have no clue what their talking about either.
My favorite phrase coming out of some, and I stress some rather then all, conservative circles and conservative talk shows is, “I’m not a scientist, but I am a thinker.” This is usually followed with an observation about science, history or academe that is painfully wrong but greeted with thumbs ups from fellow “thinkers” in the room. It’s just, so we’re told, common sense. Problem is, common sense and real life don’t always work off of the same page. But a whole lot of people out there would rather be happy about their common sense being better then those elite’s “facts” then have to admit that they might be wrong about something and change they’re POV. It’s seems to be the mindset that keeps talk radio alive.
Bush, to some degree, did win because he seemed more of a regular guy and not really that bright. The scary thing, when talking about learning curves and intellect, is that his most ardent supporters seem to only grow more enamored of him the dumber his actions and statements seem to get. Wonder who they’ll lower their standards for in 2008?
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at September 15, 2006 06:22 PM
It’s like “Mirab, his sails unfurled” to a Tamarian.
Now THAT reference I got.
Geez, Bill, it’s scary. You’re AT LEAST as nerdy as I am.
By the way, I know I could have merely looked up “Atragon” via Google. But you wouldn’t have had nearly as much fun if I had. So I decided to play “Khidir beneath Momouteh.”
In other words… “Temba, his arms wide.”
Jerry C, regarding your last post…
You know by now that do so I love to go on (and on, and on, and…). But your analysis of George W. Bush, and people’s reasons for voting for him, is dead on and leaves me with nothing to add worth adding.
Well, nothing except to say: well said, my good man.
Sorry, Alan Coil, you lost me when you called Eminem a “f888ing genius”. A f888ing BIGOT, that I’ll go along with.
And, of course, many Americans hate intelligent people. Intelligent people make it harder for some to push their religious agendas (read: creationism is schools).
Getting a STNG ref ain’t that scary.
Now, it might have been scary if you had said that you ran right out and bought Atragon. But only scary because it sells at such a nice price at deepdiscountdvd.com (free shipping). Don’t want you spending more money then you have too.
Now, I have to be going. There’s a group of nut balls from Ansby running around outside going on about crusades and I have to go ask them to move their spaceship. It’s squashing my tomato vines.
Thanks.
That should say:
Bill,
Thanks
I keep loosing bits on the starts and ends of posts this week. Is it only me?
You know, I really hate it when people get into discussions of intellect and using it as a measure of human worth.
A valiant attempt to cloud the issue, but no dice. I don’t see anybody trying to say that being more intelligent makes one intrinsically “better” than someone else. The original post and subsequent conversation largely bemoan the ever-present, and seemingly growing anti-intellectual sentiment in American society.
Also, while intelligence is not a fair yardstick of human “worth,” it’s a dámņ good indicator of a person’s qualifications for a job, especially one with the responsibilities inherent in the highest political office in our nation, possibly the world.
And what does speaking ability have to do with anything? Are you then implying that Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
And now you’re being disingenuous at best, deliberately thick and insulting at worst. The ability to form a coherent sentence and orate well in front of a crowd is not the same as the physical ability to speak. Even since he lost the capacity for physical speech and has to communicate through a machine, Professor Hawking still has the ability to present interesting (and yes, intellectual) ideas in an interesting and intelligible manner.
-Rex Hondo-
Can I just take a moment to say this is a thread I’ll remember on my deathbed?
Turkeys vs T. Rex, cogent (and semi-cogent, and not-at-all cogent) political debate, and a reference to Tamrians all in one place…
I salute you all – even the facist right-wingers! 😉
I keep expecting to see trekkies at cons conversing in Tamarian. Perhaps even adding to the rich metaphorical history. “Herman at Creationcon”; “Jeffrey, his virginity unendangered.”; “Eugene, alone in his basement.”
“…and I guess Clinton never found out how to get stains off a dress, either…”
Y’know, Dan, I remember how you said that you showed up here apparently to provide laughs. Just for the record, the only thing you’ve ever said that I considered remotely funny was the whining e-mail you sent me claiming I’d been censoring you, and how everyone was being mean to you, and how you were packing up and leaving because you could take a hint…when all that was happening was that your posts were being caught in the spam filter.
I laughed at that.
PAD
I realize that this was said a million comments ago but implying that NASCAR, Pro-wrestling, and country music are signs of stupidity IS a sign of stupidity or, more likely, mean-spiritedness and ignorance.
I find NASCAR boring, wrestling outdated, and country music vapid and possibly evil but none of these things are signs of stupidity. They’re signs of that mythical liberal elitism making itself true. Statements like that are part of the problem with this country and drive people who like such things away from those who can help them and into the arms of Bush.
“Wonder who they’ll lower their standards for in 2008?”
See, that’s it right there. That standards are being lowered. Dan Quayle was a liability years ago, generally perceived as an intellectual lightweight not remotely capable of being president.
Bush makes Dan Quayle look like Aristotle.
PAD
Posted by: Kim Metzger at September 15, 2006
“>http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html
Okay, I am TOTALLY settling this RIGHT NOW.
http://www.ultimateshowdown.org/
So there.
RE: Turkeys vs. T-Rex
A few possible scenarios as I see them:
A) Regular ol’ Earth Turkeys vs T-Rex. T-Rex’ll win this one hands down. Setting aside that turkeys are possibly the dumbest creatures on God’s green earth, their numbers would most likely work against them. They have to worry about hitting each other, and Rex (hee hee) can stomp and gobble anything he wants.
B) Pre-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Part of the suite of powers granted by a yellow sun to pre-Crisis Kryptonians was super intellect. So, assuming the fight is taking place on Earth, the Super-Turkeys should have little trouble overwhelming the T-Rex.
C) Post-Crisis Kryptonian Turkeys vs T-Rex. Now, last I checked, the super intellect was not a current part of Supes’ (eat it Byrne) powers. So, even though they’re super powered, they have no cohesive strategy and their numbers are going to be working against each other again. If the T-Rex can bob and weave enough to let the gobblers take themselves out with fairly random heat rays and such, he could still come out on top, but it’s about a 50/50 thing.
-Rex Hondo-
The Kryptonian turkeys wouldn’t be a problem. See, in one of his anti-Superman schemes, Lex wound up millions of years in the past and was confronted by that T-Rex which he then shot with the only weapon he had at the time. An anti-Superman machine gun with Kryptonite bullets. They weren’t enhough to kill the T-Rex, just drive it away for a bit. But they’re still in his body and when the turkeys get too close …
Posted by Alan Coil
In this country, stupidity has been embraced. Intelligence is to be feared. This is part of the reason Bill Clinton was hated so much. Conservative politicians and pundits have made it a part of their agenda to continue and to expand this belief among their knuckle-dragging constituents.
“Suppose you were an idiot.
“Now suppose you were a Congressman.
“But I repeat myself.”
-Mark Twain
Posted by RJM
As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
A particularly pointed joke for Atlantans – like many bits on “WKRP”, it actually happened here at (i think) WSB, where the “WKRP” creator was Program Director. (The teevee version is somewhat exaggerated, of course.)
Posted by Joe Nazzaro
Bush has probably never read anything by Shakespeare, let alone be able to spell his name?
Why are you holding Bush to a higher standard than Shakespeare (Shaksper, Shakespear, Shakspeer, etc.)?
Posted by Jeff
It’s been shown that GW’s grades were higher than Kerry’s. Plus Bush has a Master’s Degree. Power and money might get you into school, but it can’t make you graduate.
What colour is the sky in your world?
I’d just about bet that Bush took “crip” courses. At Georgia Tech, in my day, Geology 101 was informally known as “Rocks for Jocks”… And i don’t know if the Georgia Tech IM program has yet recovered fully from the Pepper Rogers days when that was the major of choice for jocks.
If the average football player can graduate, certainly a rich man’s son can buy a degree.
Is this the same Bill Clinton that thought that the most watched man in the world could get away with an affair with an intern and then lie about it?
No, this is the same Bill Clinton who figured he’d get the same “pass” from the press that a number of Presidents of both parties, since at least FDR, have gotten from the press. (Incluyding, according to an article i saw somewhere recently, quite possibly the current President’s father.)
Anything using USA Today as a source defeats any arguement about intelligence. USA Today…the newspaper for people that thing broadcast news is too complex.
Just as Unitarians are frequently lapsed Episcopalians, regular Fox News watchers tend to be people whose lips get tired reading USA Today
Posted by Joe Nazzaro
And much as it pains me, I’m not sure I can draw a correlation between lower gas prices and the upcoming elections.
Yaeh, i wish i could blame Bush for being that smart.
Oil futures have been driving prices, according to one report i read, and that market is just about saturated; i read yeaterday that futures price are at a two-year low.
Posted by Jon Meltzer
Sure it can. People who write your papers for you. Suggestions from Daddy that if Junior graduates, the college gets another building.
Long joke short: Famous race trainer dies. Leaves twenty million to UK. COndition: Award degree to his favourite horse. Dean of Law School say “No problem.. Do you know how nice it’s going to be to award a law degree to a whole horse for once?”
And a mother who served on the United Way board with IBM’s chairman. That’s how he got the MS-DOS contract that made his fortune; look it up.
That and the head of Digital Research blew off his appointment with the IBM suits.
Posted by Sasha
Tell that to the vast percentage of the citizenry who disapprove of W’s job performance.
And to the small but significant portion of the electorate who were disenfanchised by the Florida Secretary of State and/or the US Supreme Court.
Posted by Alan Coil
You are for sure deluded if you think that an auto worker gets full pay after he retires. I don’t have the exact numbers, but the annual retirement pay for an auto worker is around $15,000.
A typical contract for which i could find numbers:
Okay. accept the lower (current) as typical of the industry (and it is). Assume thirty years of service.
30 x $47.45 x 12 = $17000 plus.
A lot of autoworkers (like most unionised industrial workers) tend to spend their entire career at one company, which means more like forty or even fifty years (start at 18, work till 67). So he starts at age 20, works till he’s 65, and gets the higher rate:
45 x $51.65 x 12 = $27891
Hardly $15000
And the health benefits retirees get are hadly trivial, or GM wouldn’t work so hard to get out of pating them.
And there is mention in that article of annual lump-sum bonuses for retirees.
Country Western music was what I grew up on. Today’s so-called Country Western is banal.
alt.country is where you wanna be, my man — Jason & the Scorchers, BR-549, Hank III, Junior Brown, Commander Cody, Asleep at the Wheel, the Waco Brothers…
By The Way:
Didn’t Mrs. David attend Yale? If so, does she have any opinions on the question of the Shrub’s (alleged) intellectual gifts?
Hey! “Preview” works!
When did that ahppen?