People keep talking about how the world changed on 9/11.
It didn’t. The world was filled with terrorists, and bombs, and people living in fear, and attacks on home grounds. The world remained exactly the same. Only our perception of it changed. We became both of and in the world.
It’s five years later. Anyone feeling safer?
I also find it interesting that the Democrats have surrendered the moral high ground in terms of TV presentation. Here the GOP managed to get the Reagan biopic banished to cable because they didn’t like the way it presented their political saint, and now the Democrats managed to get the miniseries on 9/11, based on the findings of the bi-partisan committee, re-edited so that it wouldn’t seem as if President Clinton was too distracted by Monicagate to go after bin Laden…except I find it difficult to believe any reasonable person could think that the harassment over Lewinsky didn’t impede Clinton’s effectiveness on any number of levels.
Quick, kids. There’s some history. Let’s rewrite it.
PAD
• 
“A rhetorical question, greeted by another rhetorical question: Why is it that people think that saying something remarkably offensive and following it with “no offense” somehow mitigates the offensiveness?”
-PAD
Wow..I must have seen that quip on 4 or 5 messages already….must be a good one.
So, all feelings aside and getting back to the point of the original comment–you’re saying that this blog on peterdavid.net carries as much or more social clout as say, moveon.org, or some of the other well known politico-social blogs?
I mean really, what’s this blog for anyway? What’s its focus? Is it a forum for differing points of view? Clearly not, as you weenies out there seem to immediately call anyone who challenges you own little status quo a “troll” (guess that’s the geek/nerd/weenie form of self defense to anyone who has a differing opinion and has the balls to stand up for it…)
I thought this blog was for fun. I did not know that it was here to make a statement–political, social or otherwise…
Really, if this blog is meant to be only for like-minded people, you ought to put a membership stipulation on it and only let people whom you all like and approve of onto it.
That way you’ll keep your conversations to yourselves and won’t have to deal with people you are obviously ill-equipped to handle.
And, you won’t have to resort to Bill Myers’ and Bill Mulligan’s wonderfully mature tactic of “ok guys, let’s just ignore him.”
If you kiddies aren’t going to let EVERYONE into your sandbox, the Jesus Christ, put a fence around the dámņ thing…
“The question is, has anyone done enough since? They stopped the plan in England, but now it seems that it was nowhere near coming to fruition, the way that all the media types seemed to be indicating. And are all the containers coming into the country checked yet?”
Nope. And I don’t think they indend to check them. I think this country has fallen into a “the check’s in the mail” attitude–as long as we talk about it, that’s enough…we don’t actually have to act on it.
Is it a forum for differing points of view?
If you seriously think the answer is “no”, you need to go back and read a whole ton of threads on equally controversial topics. I’ve gotten into major knock-down disagreements with various people here, Bill Mulligan among them (since you mentioned him).
If you really think this place is “no disagreement allowed”, it must stand to reason that you think we’re all flaming liberals or all diehard conservatives. Neither is true.
There is a difference, however, between reasoned disagreement (however passionate) and simply acting like an áššhølë. Once you have mastered that difference, or at minimum understood it, you’ll fit right in.
Some of your posts have definitely gotten more constructive in tone (the one about checking containers among them). If you’re interested in the conversation, great! Have at it. If you’re only going to drop bombs about everyone being “kiddies” and how nobody should be taking this discussion seriously because of its location, however, I think your energies are better directed somewhere else. Anywhere else.
TWL
Dan, if you really want to see what an oppressive “members only” forum looks like, might I suggest Byrne Robotics? If you have problems with PAD’s site, I’m truly interested in seeing what your opinion of another comic-creator’s boards would be.
One bit of advice: coming into an established community and attempting to inject what you think of as humor is never going to be a good way to join that community. Especially not when it’s in a written format when we can’t see the smile at the end of your sentences, or hear the light tone of your voice. Followed up by you getting all defensive and resorting to calling the regular members of the community weenies and kiddies.
Of all the internet joints I hang out at, this one has the largest population of thinking, rational, mature people that share a common interest (the works of Peter David). Other than that, our backgrounds, interests, beliefs, politics, and religious ideals are all over the spectrum. We manage to discuss things mostly civil, and while we get heated at times, we try not to make it personal. There’s also no outright rejection of any reasoned opinion or idea.
Which, I’d think, your continued efforts to bait people, and the lack of any significant response, would suggest to you that your efforts to paint this place and the folks that hang out here as oppressive and childish were misplaced.
But whatever. You’ll probably go ahead and find something here that I’ve said to call me a weenie, too.
So, all feelings aside and getting back to the point of the original comment–you’re saying that this blog on peterdavid.net carries as much or more social clout as say, moveon.org, or some of the other well known politico-social blogs?
That is tantamount to saying that since something is animated or is in a comic book, it is for children and all material should be expressed accordingly. Whether this is PAD.NET or MOVEON.ORG doesn’t matter, it’s the material contained herein that determines its “clout”. Otherwise, you’d have yourself one of them there ad hominum arguments (i.e. excluding any arguments presented by PAD or the commenters simply because this is PAD’s blog and PAD is a fiction writer).
I probably shouldn’t even respond to Dan, but then, nobody ever accused me of either brains or wisdom. You know what this site has that moveon.org or other political sites don’t? Well, diversity for one. And if you think this blog is only for “right minded people” as you put it, heck, half the people wouldn’t be heard from. And the Bills(Myers and Mulligan, not Buffalo) and others would only resort to the ignore tactic if a person was, well, ignorant. You’re apparently a pretty intelligent guy, in fact I think that could be said of most people here, but unlike most you seem to post not to contribute or do anything but what my 5-year-old does when he thinks I’m not paying attention to him, get louder, more obnoxious, and and right in my face. I think you showed with your response to my one post about the import containers that you DO have something to offer. Unfortunately, the rest of the packaging can tend to put people off.
Dan Nakagawa: “And, you won’t have to resort to Bill Myers’ and Bill Mulligan’s wonderfully mature tactic of “ok guys, let’s just ignore him.”
Dan, unless you change your posture this really will be my last response to you.
Ignoring someone who is acting execrably is not an immature tactic at all. If I continued to answer your insults with more insults of my own, that would be immature. Ignoring you is actually a very adult way of handling you.
I’m not afraid of you, Dan. The problem here isn’t me. It’s you. It’s clear you crave my attention. But Bill Mulligan was right: I have a girlfriend, friends, a job, a time-consuming and very rewarding hobby (writing and drawing my own comic-book). I have to choose where and when to direct my efforts. If you want my attention (and it is clear you do), the best way to get it is to engage me in an intelligent conversation.
If instead you merely want to act childishly and toss around insults, then, no, I don’t have the time for you. There are too many worthwhile things competing for my attention.
That isn’t fear, Dan. It’s apathy. I’ve grown weary of you.
Dan, I never asked for nor wanted your attention. Deny it if you’d like, but it is clear you want my attention, along with the attention of everyone else here. So, I want nothing from you, but you want something from me. Well, then — earn it. I had to earn people’s respect when I first started posting here.
It’s not some arbitrary rule of ours, Dan. It’s like that with ANY group, ANYWHERE. You earn people’s respect. That’s just The Way Things Are.
And if you continue to act like a snotty little brat, then, yeah, this will be my last response to you. Interpret that however you wish.
What’s its focus?
Erm, last I checked, blogs weren’t expected to have a focus, as many of them are created by individuals who can talk about whatever the hëll they feel like.
And that’s the case with PAD’s blog: his blog, he chooses what he wants to talk about.
Only more recently have they become more focused on niche areas or politics, etc.
“I thought this blog was for fun. I did not know that it was here to make a statement–political, social or otherwise…”
So we won’t have to go through the idiotic debate on PAD unfairly censoring I’ll say it. Dude if your not enjoying yourself no one is forceing you to stay. But hey, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
JAC
“I probably shouldn’t even respond to Dan, but then, nobody ever accused me of either brains or wisdom. You know what this site has that moveon.org or other political sites don’t? Well, diversity for one. And if you think this blog is only for “right minded people” as you put it, heck, half the people wouldn’t be heard from. And the Bills(Myers and Mulligan, not Buffalo) and others would only resort to the ignore tactic if a person was, well, ignorant. You’re apparently a pretty intelligent guy, in fact I think that could be said of most people here, but unlike most you seem to post not to contribute or do anything but what my 5-year-old does when he thinks I’m not paying attention to him, get louder, more obnoxious, and and right in my face. I think you showed with your response to my one post about the import containers that you DO have something to offer. Unfortunately, the rest of the packaging can tend to put people off.”
–I guess I’m still not getting it. I appreciate your sentiments, but so far you guys sound like I’m Hal Jordan (or worse, G’Nort), and you all are the Guardians of OA…am I missing something?
I really don’t understand how I’m coming off sounding like an áššhølë to you guys.
Admittedly, my last post was sarcastic and mean-spirited. but you have to admit that Myers and Mulligan took some pretty cheap shots at me too…and all because I called them ‘bucko’? You know, in another post, Myers actually said ‘grow the fûçk up.’ Sorry, I may be snarky, but I’ve never debased myself so low that I’ve had to resort to profanity.
Doesn’t anyone even read my points of view? As I said, I was trying to argue the fatalist point of view…you may not like it, but hey guys, reality time here–it exists, and its just as menacing and as looming as Galactus is in the Marvel Universe.
My argument was to goad you all into countering that argument and really thinking–what would you do? And what IF Islam decided it wanted to take over, just like the Christian Crusaders of old?
What would you do if the basic, fundamental lifestyle of Western Civilization was going to being threatened?
As much as you say that we are not in a kill-or-be-killed situation, the possibility still does exist, and given the seeming mood of the world today, I would not say that it was a remote one.
Don’t you want to discuss basic issues like that? I do. I could really care less about how people acted in the past–thats no guarantee that they’re going to do the same thing in the future.
I like discussing possibilites in the future and what you or I would most likely do in those situations.
Isn’t that what Science Fiction is all about?
And here, today, we have a perfect jumping off point.
Everyone is complaining about the ‘current administration’–the current administration is going to be OVER in two years(two years? hëll, it could be over in two months)–that’s not that far off…what’s going to happen then? What do you think’ll happen then?
was that less snarky?
I think a good number of us here actually consider the serious debates we have to BE fun.
Dan Nakagawa: “And, you won’t have to resort to Bill Myers’ and Bill Mulligan’s wonderfully mature tactic of “ok guys, let’s just ignore him.”
Dan, unless you change your posture this really will be my last response to you.
Ignoring someone who is acting execrably is not an immature tactic at all. If I continued to answer your insults with more insults of my own, that would be immature. Ignoring you is actually a very adult way of handling you.
I’m not afraid of you, Dan. The problem here isn’t me. It’s you. It’s clear you crave my attention. But Bill Mulligan was right: I have a girlfriend, friends, a job, a time-consuming and very rewarding hobby (writing and drawing my own comic-book). I have to choose where and when to direct my efforts. If you want my attention (and it is clear you do), the best way to get it is to engage me in an intelligent conversation.
If instead you merely want to act childishly and toss around insults, then, no, I don’t have the time for you. There are too many worthwhile things competing for my attention.
That isn’t fear, Dan. It’s apathy. I’ve grown weary of you.
Dan, I never asked for nor wanted your attention. Deny it if you’d like, but it is clear you want my attention, along with the attention of everyone else here. So, I want nothing from you, but you want something from me. Well, then — earn it. I had to earn people’s respect when I first started posting here.
It’s not some arbitrary rule of ours, Dan. It’s like that with ANY group, ANYWHERE. You earn people’s respect. That’s just The Way Things Are.
And if you continue to act like a snotty little brat, then, yeah, this will be my last response to you. Interpret that however you wish.
—To Bill Myers:
What an incredible ego you have! You think that my posts have all been about you, don’t you?
well let me tell you pal, I’ve got a life as well, and beleive me, worrying about pissants like you are on the bottom of my list.
Read the posts I’ve made–I didn’t even know who you were (nor did I care) till you came out lashing at me first.
And ignoring IS a childish response–it means you have neither the guts nor the brains to take me on.
I don’t crave your attention–my comments were about how childish you were acting, not on YOU personally.
But since you insist on trying to psychoanalyze me, let me do little on you.
So, you have a job, a girlfriend, a hobby–very nice–WHO CARES? I have all those things as well. I think you crave attention more than I do.
Didn’t you say in another topic that you were going to Wizard World Chicago to “shmooze” Peter David? Whats the matter? Afraid that your work won’t stand up on its own merit?
I want nothing from you—I find you a joke–less than a joke.
Remember, you brought this on yourself.
Respond–or not–who cares?
> Militant Islam is a small faction of the Muslim world. It’s able to grow and take root because of the social and economic conditions that exist in the Middle East. By bringing about real change and stability to the region…however it’s done…we’ll kill off the roots that allow terrorist groups to recruit from.
That’d be great if it were true, but we’re increasingly seeing people from perfectly good backgrounds who are rallying to the cause just, well, “because”. They aren’t poor and they aren’t from poor families, or even poor neighbourhoods – look at the home-grown ones in the US and Canada – but they don’t let that stop them from joining up. Face it: sometimes all it takes for someone to hate is for the other fellow just to exist.
>Alan, that’s not exactly fair. An argument can be made that we are, in fact, safer.
Six words: North Korea and Iran + nuclear programs.
>The world did change on September 11, 2001. The United States, a sleeping giant, was awakened. We experienced foreign terrorism on our own soil of a magnitude for which there was no precedent here.
Nonsesne. Two words here: Pearl Harbour.
Thousands of American citizens killed, hundreds of millions in property destroyed also in a sneak attack involving planes. The aftermath had an even stronger effect on the U.S. as it counterattacked in a far more devastating manner than has thus far been the case in the ‘war on terror’. People who complain about what Shrub & Co are up to in Iraq (and I’m no fan of his) should go look at photos of Tokyo after the firebombings. Or Hiroshima & Nagasaki. The worst that’s been done in Iraq is like a minor house fire in comparison.
Dan,
What in hëll is the point, I mean really?
Me, I was looking forward to sharing a few of my views and rhetoric on the shape of the world, maybe getting a response or two and given some of my opinions quite possibly a little disagreement from across the pond. Right now there seems little point, no matter, I have a home to get to.
Enjoy your purile comments, may they bring you much joy.
The StarWolf: “Nonsesne. Two words here: Pearl Harbour.
“Thousands of American citizens killed, hundreds of millions in property destroyed also in a sneak attack involving planes. The aftermath had an even stronger effect on the U.S. as it counterattacked in a far more devastating manner than has thus far been the case in the ‘war on terror’. People who complain about what Shrub & Co are up to in Iraq (and I’m no fan of his) should go look at photos of Tokyo after the firebombings. Or Hiroshima & Nagasaki. The worst that’s been done in Iraq is like a minor house fire in comparison.”
The strike on Pearl Harbor was not a terrorist attack. It was an attack by the Japanese military against a military target in the U.S. I’m not saying that justifies what the Japanese did that day, mind you, nor that it diminishes the loss of lives and the overall horror of that day. I’m merely saying that it differentiates Pearl Harbor from the attacks on September 11, 2001. Those attacks did include one military target — The Pentagon — but they also very deliberately included a decidedly non-military target.
>>Peter David: “It’s five years later. Anyone feeling safer?”
>Am I safer? … I am forced to acknowledge that we haven’t suffered another significant attack since that fateful day, five years and one day ago.
In part you need to define what’s ‘safer’. Society has been taking it on the chin and personal rights and freedoms have been getting chipped away from day one. I daresay what it means to be a Canadian or American is no longer ‘safe’.
Too, five years? What of it? People forget, there was an attack on Marine barracks in Beirut which killed a couple hundred marines … in ’83. Nine years later? The failed attack on the World Trade Center with the explosive-laden trucks in ’92. Then? Nine years later, the successful attacks. They may be lunatics, but, unlike us, know how to plan for the long term. Five years is nothing to them. This is why politicians are ill-placed to wage such ‘battles’ because they tend to think only of the next elections whereas the bad guys have a longer view.
“Dan,
What in hëll is the point, I mean really?
Me, I was looking forward to sharing a few of my views and rhetoric on the shape of the world, maybe getting a response or two and given some of my opinions quite possibly a little disagreement from across the pond. Right now there seems little point, no matter, I have a home to get to.
Enjoy your purile comments, may they bring you much joy.”
Lloyd,
I truly do apologize that you had to come into the middle of this…
I really didn’t want this to become personal.. but I don’t walk away from fights, and Myers just drew a line in the sand, and stepped over it.
What could I do?
I tried to join in the conversation. People didn’t like the way I joined. Maybe I just butted in…who knows? All they would’ve had to have said was “Dan, this is a private conversation”, and I would have backed out, no problem.
But no. I spoke my peace the way I always have, and for some reason they took offense to it. Worse yet, they took offense to me personally…you can argue and put down what I say, you can counter my arguments and I’ll counter yours, but when you start implying that my opinions make me a bad person, that’s when the claws come out–and I go for the throat.
So, I hope you’ll understand.
Bill – I’m aware of that, but the effect was the same. And someone will probably point out that what was meant was the continental US, to which I reply that people on the continent were afraid enough that well, look at what they did to American citizens of Japanese ancestry. So I say that differentiating between terrorist attacks in NYC (they didn’t have the military capacity to mount a real assault or they would have) and the military operation in the Pacific is almost a quibble.
“The strike on Pearl Harbor was not a terrorist attack. It was an attack by the Japanese military against a military target in the U.S. I’m not saying that justifies what the Japanese did that day, mind you, nor that it diminishes the loss of lives and the overall horror of that day. I’m merely saying that it differentiates Pearl Harbor from the attacks on September 11, 2001. Those attacks did include one military target — The Pentagon — but they also very deliberately included a decidedly non-military target.”
Pearl Harbor wasn’t even a surprise attack…not technically. A message was sent warning of the attack hours before it happened.
American just didn’t read it in time…
Hiroshima on the other hand, was a big Naval port town–so technically it wasn’t a non-military target.
The StarWolf: “Bill – I’m aware of that, but the effect was the same. And someone will probably point out that what was meant was the continental US, to which I reply that people on the continent were afraid enough that well, look at what they did to American citizens of Japanese ancestry. So I say that differentiating between terrorist attacks in NYC (they didn’t have the military capacity to mount a real assault or they would have) and the military operation in the Pacific is almost a quibble.”
I respectfully disagree. World War II was a war in which we knew who are enemies were. They had “return addresses,” and they wore uniforms. They fought a conventional war.
We know our enemy today is Islamic fundamentalism, but beyond that we don’t know much. Al Qaeda is not a nation nor a military in any meaningful sense of either word. They are spread throughout many countries. And the threat has metastesized: there are now “splinter groups” that have no real ties to Osama bin Laden other than their sympathy with his cause.
When Japan surrendered to us, World War II was officially over. When Saddam Hussein’s regime was toppled, nothing was over. It had just begun.
So, no, I don’t think I’m quibbling at all. The attacks on September 11, 2001, had no real precedent in terms of terrorist attacks of such magnitude on our soil. And the “war on terror” is so open-ended that I’m not sure it has a precedent in our nation’s history, either.
“I’m aware of that, but the effect was the same. And someone will probably point out that what was meant was the continental US, to which I reply that people on the continent were afraid enough that well, look at what they did to American citizens of Japanese ancestry. So I say that differentiating between terrorist attacks in NYC (they didn’t have the military capacity to mount a real assault or they would have) and the military operation in the Pacific is almost a quibble.”
–The Japanese Navy had built several massive submaries with the intention of sailing around to the US East Coast and attacking their major citites–forgot what the name of the sub was. Fortunatley, the US Navy found, and sunk them in the Pacific.
Just think–Kamikaze planes hitting the Empire State building…9/11 could have been 1943 instead of 2001
And what stopped the Japanese? Nukes.
Dan Nakagawa, I have gone back and read through your posts…Bill may have challenged you directly first, but only after several posts of yours that had taken on a beligerant and belittling tone. And Bill’s first post directed to you was to suggest that you tone down your posts, because your tone was getting in the way of any good points and discussion you might otherwise be contributing.
Things predictably spiral down from there when you started reacting defensively.
I’ll say again, and what others have said: this blog’s been around a long time. There are regulars here, and we stay here anc keep coming here because of the atmosphere that’s evolved. We have intelligent, vigorous, sometimes silly discussions. But we’re mostly respectful, especially of each other. Bill offered some advice to you, a seeming newcomer, about how to better fit in, because he knew from past experiences that your tone was going to alienate people sooner or later.
Dan Nakagawa: “–The Japanese Navy had built several massive submaries with the intention of sailing around to the US East Coast and attacking their major citites–forgot what the name of the sub was. Fortunatley, the US Navy found, and sunk them in the Pacific.
“Just think–Kamikaze planes hitting the Empire State building…9/11 could have been 1943 instead of 2001”
Dan, because you have indeed changed your posture with your last two posts, I am happy to re-engage you.
I must confess I didn’t know about the Japanese plans to launch Kamikaze attacks on U.S. civilian targets. Thank you for contributing that.
You’re obviously an intelligent and knowledgeable person, Dan.
See? Just be cool, converse, and we can be cool with you in return.
While we’re at it, I never said you craved my attention alone, Dan. Here’s an excerpt from the post of mine that you quoted, with a passage you obviously missed in boldface type for your convenience:
“Deny it if you’d like, but it is clear you want my attention, along with the attention of everyone else here.“
Also, I never said I was going to Wizard World to shmooze Peter David. That was another poster. Comments in this blog are all archived, so you can go back and check if you don’t believe me.
Finally, it is factually incorrect to say that you were ignoring me until I came out and attacked you. Anyone reading this thread in order can see that the reverse actually occurred. I never addressed you directly until you replied to one of my posts.
I don’t really care if you dislike me. But I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t attribute comments to me that I never made, and I’d also appreciate it if you’d avoid distorting the facts about our interactions.
Just and FYI–
The Japanese viewed Americans as devils. My Dad grew up in the US and was sent to Japan at age 11. Then WWII broke out, strading him there. When the war broke out–my realtives in Japan had him convinced that his family in the US were most likey all dead–killed at the hands of those ‘barbaric Americans.’
The Japanese were ready to fight to the last man, woman and child. My Uncle was a kamikaze pilot–he as my Mom’s big brother–never knew him.
Even after Japan surrendered, during the US occupation in the city of Yokohama, many of the streets were not safe to walk for US G.I.’s One main street, called Huncho Doori, was one of the streets designated for American use–stay on that street, and you’d be safe.
It is from the name of that street that we get the expression “Hunky Dory”–meaning everything’s OK…
Whoops! Correction: I addressed Dan before he directly addressed me. I was wrong about the order in which things occurred.
See, Dan? I admitted I was wrong and it didn’t hurt a bit.
Another FYI–
My Dad lived in Kure, a city about 70 miles Northwest of Hiroshima. On August 9, He was in school and saw a bright flash on the horizon. Then cames columns of brightly colored smoke…you don’t see the mushroom shape unless you’re up high ehough…
He saw first hand the devastation.
For his birthday, I gave him a complete set of Barefoot Gen…I saw the tears well up in his eyes as he read them
Yet, if you were to ask him if he thought the use of the Atomic Bomb was necessary to end the war, he would tell you, without even having to think about it,
“Yes, it was.”
The Japanese were killing themselves–look at the battle of Guadalcanal–The idiot general sent thousands of foot soldiers with single-shot rifles (the US forces has machine guns) up against US Tanks!!!! The general later committed suicide from the guilt.
I say nukes may be necessary in this war because I know firsthand how zealous a people can be, given the correct motivation.
I saw the scandals of the Royal family in England (Prince Charles and Lady Diana) and asked my mother if anythig like that could ever happen in Japan. She slapped my face for even thinking such a thing.
Even after all these years.
Beliefs and loyalty die hard.
To Bob Alfred:
“Bill may have challenged you directly first, but only after several posts of yours that had taken on a beligerant and belittling tone.”
—Examples, please, of my beligerant and belittling tone.
“–The Japanese Navy had built several massive submaries with the intention of sailing around to the US East Coast and attacking their major citites–forgot what the name of the sub was. Fortunatley, the US Navy found, and sunk them in the Pacific.
Just think–Kamikaze planes hitting the Empire State building…9/11 could have been 1943 instead of 2001
And what stopped the Japanese? Nukes.”
I hadn’t heard of those massive subs before. The wreck of one was found just last year, so I guess the documentary hasn’t made the Discovery Channel circuit just yet. But they did exist, were massive, and were armed with a few planes in addition to traditional sub weapons. They were found and sunk by the Navy…after Japan had surrendered.
Granted, as large as they were, the damage they could have caused was limited. The entire group had maybe 10 short-range aircraft between them, and no more than 600 sailors.
Kamikaze planes hitting the Empire State Building wouldn’t have been very effective. ESB is a concrete monster, designed to withstand much greater forces and impacts than the WTC was. In fact, a US B-25 did crash into the ESB in 1945. The B-25 is about 2-3 times larger than the aircraft the Japanese had on those subs. There were a lot of people working in the building at the time, and the entire incident only claimed 14 lives. And did not do any permanent damage to the building.
So, assuming the Japanese would have wasted some of their 10 aircraft in such an attack, it would have had little, if any, effect. The planes carried but the sub carries were smaller fighter types, and Japanese warbirds were not know for their rugged durability, but rather their agile speed and grace.
Nukes did indeed bring the war to an end, reversing the emporer’s decree that the Japanese fight to the last man, woman, and child. Because it demonstrated that the US had the capability and the ability to kill every man, woman, and child…at the same time. And since the view of no surrender wasn’t uninversally shared amongst all the Japanese people, it brought about the end.
Pulling back to your “kill or be killed” solution, that won’t work with militant Islamics. Because they don’t care if we kill every last one of them. It’s part of their program to die fighting us, and goes for every man, woman, and child that ascribes to their philosophy. Not to mention that they don’t gather in easily identifiable groups of militant Islamic cities, with low innocent populations, that we could convientently target.
“Dan, because you have indeed changed your posture with your last two posts, I am happy to re-engage you.”
Don’t do me any favors. I DO NOT like you and will no longer respond directly to any of your postings.
I will take care in the future to make sure I start my posts with salutations to the particular individual to whom I am responding.
Dan, it appears you’ve put me on your personal “ignore list,” which is ironic given your stance about that. Nevertheless, on the off chance you’re paying attention…
Dan Nakagawa: “Yet, if you were to ask him if he thought the use of the Atomic Bomb was necessary to end the war, he would tell you, without even having to think about it,
‘Yes, it was.'”
This isn’t the first time I’ve heard a Japanese person who actually lived through the horror of the first atomic bombs express the opinion that nukes were necessary.
But it floors me every time I hear it.
We in the U.S. can talk about the issue in the abstract. We didn’t live through the seared flesh, the radiation poisoning, the generations touched by the atomic horror. People in Japan did. To hear someone from Japan, who was there when the bombs were dropped, say that such a thing was necessary… it floors me.
I don’t think you can compare World War II to the current conflict, though. Back then, only the U.S. had “The Bomb.” These days, there are plenty of countries with nukes, and more with ambitions to acquire them. The use of a nuclear weapon could upset the fragile balance that keeps us all in check.
I hope against hope we can get our leaders to recognize that fact. Because I’d hate to see the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki repeated for any reason, no matter how justifiable.
To Bob:
“Pulling back to your “kill or be killed” solution, that won’t work with militant Islamics. Because they don’t care if we kill every last one of them. It’s part of their program to die fighting us, and goes for every man, woman, and child that ascribes to their philosophy.”
——————————————-
Excuse me, but doesn’t the fact that they believe that they will go to heaven and mett XX number of virgins actually prove my point about ‘kill or be killed?’
They will not stop until every one of us is dead.
Indeed, they believe they will be rewarded for killing more of us (kind of a frequent-killing program .) For them, live or die, its a win-win situation.
So we need to kill them first.
Or, do you know of some CIA / Jedi mind-control thingy that’ll stop them from wanting to kill us, so that we can simply imprison them?
Dan Nakagawa: “Don’t do me any favors. I DO NOT like you and will no longer respond directly to any of your postings.”
“I will take care in the future to make sure I start my posts with salutations to the particular individual to whom I am responding.”
I wasn’t trying to do you any favors. I was genuinely interested in what you were saying, and far less concerned about nursing personal grudges than I was about learning something new.
Still, suit yourself, kiddo. I have to ask, though: have you so soon forgotten what you said earlier?
Dan Nakagawa: “And ignoring IS a childish response–it means you have neither the guts nor the brains to take me on.”
By your standards, then, I took you on, and you had neither the “guts” nor “brains” to go toe-to-toe with me.
I guess that’s game, set and match to me, then. Or, in terms you might understand: you’ve been PWNed. By me.
Later, kiddo.
Dan Nakagawa –
What could I do?
Quit being a prìçk, for starters.
“Examples, please, of my beligerant and belittling tone.”
Ok
From your second post: “Actually, when you think about it, it’ll be rather entertaining…the ultimate reality show.
Nukes going off, the death, the devastation…dámņ entertaining…gotta love it.”
Not a common opinion, encouraging a nuclear exchange. Most of us are old enough to at least remember the end of the Cold War. Some would have lived through the years of Duck and Cover. Some might even have memories of when the world really was at the brink of total destruction. You’d later suggest that this comment was at least in some part made in jest, but at the time, it was your second post. If not beligerant, it’s at least geared to start an argument that not many people would make.
From your third post: “And Bush ain’t doing that now? If that’s what needs to be done, how’s some DEM yahoo gonna do it any better? Like I said, nothing’s gonna change.”
The term DEM yahoo is belittling.
This is your fourth post: “BTW, I loved your last line–“Islam, if it is to survive in the modern global society, will have to undergo a similar transformation.”
And what if it don’t? Whacha gon’ DO then, beeeatch? Go to WAR with them? NUKE Them?
(sorry–been reading Peter’s book on writing comics, and was getting into character…)
Thank you for proving my point.”
It’s condescending, and belittling. Again, it seems you’re attempting to inject humor, but getting across the funny in a line of text is the most difficult of skills. At this point, 4 posts in, I don’t think anyone was on to your sense of humor.
From your fifth post: “So, you would agree that none of this ‘change’ since 9/11 is really Bush’s fault? Your theory, in order to be valid, has to work both ways, bucko.”
Calling someone you don’t know, or are otherwise unfamiliar with, “bucko” is a beligerant act. It’s like Wolvering calling someone “bub.” When Wolvie does it, you know he’s in a fighting mood.
Also from your fifth post: “–I lived in Japan where owning handguns is illegal–crime still exists there…the knife has just replaced the pistol. Like they said in Jurrasic Park–Life finds a way…you don’t beleive me? You know how to make crystal meth????”
Everything up to your last sentence is fine. I have to admit I don’t know what you’re trying to say with the crystal meth line, but I take it from context that it’s not a good thing. Again, you’re attacking personally another poster. AKA beligerant.
From your sixth post: “No you’re not. You folks here haven’t said anything that I haven’t heard on any talk radio station. I was just trying to inject a little humor here…I mean really, how serious a discussion can you have on a blog of a webisite of a guy that writes comic books for a living (no offense, Peter.)?”
Granted, this was in response to Den’s comment about the adults trying to have a discussion, but it continues and exacerbates the belittling tone running throughout your posts.
And your seventh post: “–I’m rubber, you’re glue. Nyah, Nyah, Nyah.
Why is talk radio all of a sudden, wrong?
Why is posting on a blog of a website of a blog of a guy who writes comics for a living somehow more holy and pristine and talk radio?
Why, out of all the salient points I posted in my last message, did you pick the most inane one to respond to? Could it be that you see some wisdom in the other ideas?
Why can’t you stay on topic?
Jesus, and they call ME childish…grow up, dude.”
This post doesn’t even try to address the topic, it just attacks other posters.
As I’ve said before, you’ve made some good comments. I (and I think others) think you’ve got some good points to add to the discussion. And I don’t even think that you need to tone down things too much. But cutting people down and attacking them isn’t funny.
Oh, and for the record:
What an incredible ego you have! You think that my posts have all been about you, don’t you?
Yep, this entire post was pretty bad.
I really didn’t want this to become personal.. but I don’t walk away from fights, and Myers just drew a line in the sand, and stepped over it.
Yep, that’s pretty bad.
Don’t do me any favors. I DO NOT like you and will no longer respond directly to any of your postings.
Yep, that’s pretty bad.
Anything else?
Of course the world has changed.The world changes daily. In specific, the USA, once held as the ideal of democratic ideal, has become very close to a police state.
The president claims almost royal perogative. Wire tap sans warrant, secret trials, “enemy combatants” held in some quasi-legalistic limbo. Shades of Lubyanka!
I half expect the roundups to begin post haste.
As for ABC, to quote “Bob and Tom”, write ’em a check and tell ’em to go to hëll. Or ignore them.
If, according to the GOP, we can lay responsibility for 9/11 on Clinton, then can we not lay responsibility for the first WTC bombing in ’93 on George the First? Or possibly even (hold onto yer hats) St. Ronnie? The Iran hostage crisis on Ford or Nixon?
The head of the RNC, Reagan’s son, etc were able to get the Reagan mini moved to Showtime. Perhaps if the former president had been able to defend himself things would have been different.
To me that is vastly different than Harry Reid and a handful of other SENATORS writing a letter to ABC threatening to take away their FCC license if they showed the movie.
They call Bush a facist?
To Bob Alfred:
“Actually, when you think about it, it’ll be rather entertaining…the ultimate reality show.”
—That was a paraphrase from George Carlin’s comedy routine.
————————-
“Nukes going off, the death, the devastation…dámņ entertaining…gotta love it.”
–An extrapolation of the aforementioned George Carlin skit.
————————–
“”And Bush ain’t doing that now? If that’s what needs to be done, how’s some DEM yahoo gonna do it any better? Like I said, nothing’s gonna change.”
—I submit that “rightwing nutjob” is even more belittling.
————————–
“This is your fourth post: “BTW, I loved your last line–“Islam, if it is to survive in the modern global society, will have to undergo a similar transformation.”
And what if it don’t? Whacha gon’ DO then, beeeatch? Go to WAR with them? NUKE Them?
(sorry–been reading Peter’s book on writing comics, and was getting into character…)
Thank you for proving my point.”
—Belittlement and condescention are in the eyes of the beholder, and apparently you are more sensitive than Deanna Troi at a Metallica concert.
(oh, come on, you gotta admit THAT’S funny!)
——————————————
“”So, you would agree that none of this ‘change’ since 9/11 is really Bush’s fault? Your theory, in order to be valid, has to work both ways, bucko.”
–All right…if you say so..I apologize for calling Bill Myers “bucko.” HOWEVER, I DO take offense when HE said:
“grow the fûçk up.”–profanity, used in ANY context is betlittling and offensive, don’t you agree?
——————————————–
“You know how to make crystal meth????”
–Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that crystal meth was made using Claratin and various cleaning products…saw it on Carlos Mencia’s show…hmm…now that I think of it, HE had to explain it to the audience too…my bad.
—————————————
“”–I’m rubber, you’re glue. Nyah, Nyah, Nyah.”
–I will submit that this is no more or less belittling or condscending than “Quick, kids. There’s some history. Let’s rewrite it.”
Why didn’t Pater just come out and say “Republicans are trying to re-write history?”
Don’t you feel that being called ‘kid’ is condescending? You seem to think being called ‘bucko’ is…
—————————————–
Jesus, and they call ME childish…grow up, dude.”
—-At least I did not tell him to “grow the fûçk up.”
——————————————
And to Craig:
Oh, and for the record:
What an incredible ego you have! You think that my posts have all been about you, don’t you?
Yep, this entire post was pretty bad.
I really didn’t want this to become personal.. but I don’t walk away from fights, and Myers just drew a line in the sand, and stepped over it.
Yep, that’s pretty bad.
Don’t do me any favors. I DO NOT like you and will no longer respond directly to any of your postings.
Yep, that’s pretty bad.
—-for the most part, all of them were meant for one individual–not to you, and if you’d bothered to read the salutation line, you would have realized that.
oh, as you so kindly called me a ‘prìçk’ in a previous posting:
–why don’t you just butt the fûçk out you lousy inane moron?
There. we are now even.
—————————————–
To Craig:
“Quit being a prìçk, for starters.”
—I find that offensive and snarky, especially when note of the negative comments were directly aimed at you.
P.S.–Fûçk you, elitist áššhølë–
Dan Nakagawa
Is that you, Bladestar?
Joe V.
Dan Nakagawa,
Most of what you’ve said seems to be devolving into nonsense that’s loosing its interest factor or has been addressed by others quite well. But you’ve stated something several times, in one way or another, that does actually torque me. You keep belittling this forum, the idea that anything serious can be written here and, by extension, any poster here because the host writes comics for a living (putting aside the fact that his comics have dealt with such knee slappers as AIDS, abortion, child abuse, rape, the death penalty, politics and the ramifications of taking even an evil life if you are a good person).
Do you realize how genuinely insulting and ignorant, especially from a newer poster, that comes off as? Are you at all wondering why you just may be getting off on the wrong foot with people here? PAD writes comics. Big whoop. How/why exactly does that mean that he can’t make a very serious and well thought out topic and then receive very serious and well thought out responses in return?
PAD does a little more with his life then just write comics and posters on this site include or have included teachers, cops, lawyers, soldiers and professionals from many walks of life. There are/have been posters here who are from other countries and often throw out ideas or viewpoints that make for serious thought and some ripping debates.
Debates that have raged here have include race, war, politics and censorship. Go read a few of the archived posts from Katrina and its aftermath. Got to be some real heated exchanges there.
Yeah, we can have humor too. There have been threads here that really did contain some absolute knee slappers. But we can also have very serious discussions and ideas exchanged here. To imply otherwise is both insulting to or host and to those of us who have been posting here for a while now.
Now, if I’ve taken some of your other postings wrong and if you genuinely want to contribute to discussions here rather then just being this month’s troll:
Dude, chill out.
You’re going to have very little fun here if you start cutting off conversation with regulars right off the bat. You’ll also have trouble in future debates as both Bills are two of the most regular posters here. Refusing to respond to them can sometimes mean sitting out of most of a debate.
You have some counterpoint positions that could be welcomed here. Fine. Your only stumbling block may be, from your own statements, the over use of humor where humor is hard to detect. We can’t see you or hear you. We can only read black print on white backgrounds. Hëll, in person you could have the comedic vocal talents of Robin Williams. But none of us know you in person and we don’t yet know enough about your personality in postings to know when something like “bucko” is being said with a wink and a grin rather then a serious tone and a raised middle finger.
You’re not the only person to have done that. I’ve been here about two and a half years (as Jerry in Richmond or just Jerry at first) and I don’t post with the regularity of some of the others. Some of my first posts were taken a little wrong because I posted like I talked. I often talk with a wink and a grin and, sometimes, more then a little friendly sarcasm. They didn’t know that because they didn’t know me. I said oops, apologized for the initial confusion and pointed out that some of my posts should be read with a wink and a grin. I also worked at thinking out how my posts might play in cold, voiceless black and white. I toned it down a bit. Got on fine after that. Even got to a point where I can occasionally post exactly as I talk and most everyone gets it without any offenses being taken. Humor is very welcome here.
Take it from someone who has head butted with both Bills. They’re both nice guys. So are most the people here. If you drop the “I don’t like you” routine, think about how some of what you type may be read by people who don’t know you and be willing to restart your relationships here on a clean slate then you’ll probably find yourself liking a lot of the people here who you’re thinking now that you won’t like. You’ll certainly have more fun.
Something that got lost in the Dan Nakagawa nonsense:
Posted by: Sean Scullion at September 12, 2006 11:57 PM
Bill, do the people in your life tell you that you gotta get on a quiz show, too? I hear that all the time. And if you hadn’t pointed out NF2, I would’ve. Seriously! I would’ve! No matter how hollow that sounds!
It doesn’t sound “hollow” coming from a stand-up guy like you. You’ve got street cred.
No, people don’t tell me I should be on a game show. But, you know, the idea is intriguing… 😉
Mr. David,
I’ve read your blog entry and thought about whether the world has changed and how I should respond to it. I’ve decided that you’re right. The world hasn’t changed at all.
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
You’ll also have trouble in future debates as both Bills are two of the most regular posters here. Refusing to respond to them can sometimes mean sitting out of most of a debate.
Jeeze, I’d hate to think my ignoring someone would ever be a threat. For one thing, I shouldn’t have such power since I’ll undoubtedly abuse it. Moo hoo hoo hoo hwah!
Anyway, I’ll echo the fact that this is a great group. Most of the posters don’t share my politics. Some have had occasion to wonder if I would benefit from a right good staking to an ant hill for an hour or two. It’s all good. Most of us had had some bad impressions of people that have turned out to be unwarrented. Den and I had a bad go around a while back and he’s now one of the people I most enjoy reading.
Dan’s made as bad a first impression as I’ve seen but he also has a unique perspective–the stuff about his father was riveting. So maybe things will work out.
Bills, here’s the plan. We all three get on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire or some other quiz show, maybe Jeopardy! Watch Alex Trebek do the Canadian version of the Exorcist as we bankrupt the show!
Now, Bill Mulligan, if you WERE to ignore someone, say, and they wanted to get off it, could they ask for a Mulligan? And I can’t see you abusing that power. That is, until you get your own tv channel, then it’s all Bill, all the time, and I, as a brilliant young TV guy, will only be too happy to be your pupppetmas–no, wait, producer, yeah, producer!
Okay, enough jocularity. Well, for now. Bobb, I hadn’t heard about the Japanese plans for New York, but I DO remember hearing about some Nazi plans to do the same thing. Now, when I first saw that program on the History Channel, I couldn’t help thinking, if these plans have been around since the 40’s, what ELSE has been planned for that long that supposedly no one could conceive of? I mean, first episode of The Lone Gunmen has a loaded 747 heading for the World Trade Center, and granted, that came out only a short while before September 11th, 2001, but if the Axis bad guys were planning this in the forties, what other nuggets could the CURRENT group of enemies be mining from the past?
Bobb, how’s your wife feeling?
Re – use of nukes.
In Japan, it sped up the end of the war and wound up costing fewer lives. The war would have ended anyway, if only by the country being completely cut off from vital supplies and having its ability to strike back pretty much wiped out. It would have meant mass starvation and other hardships on the way, though. As it was, many citizens were very glad for the quicker end given how their military were treating them – almost as badly as they treated enemy prisoners in many cases.
Using atomic bombs elsewhere? A Canadian journalist, Michael Coren, is serious when he advocates a limited, tactical nuclear strike against Iran’s military complex. He makes an almost plausible case for it. The only reasons I don’t subscribe to it is that A) it probably wouldn’t work and B) I’ve been to the museum in Hiroshima.
One last Japan story…
You know about my Dad…
Meanwhile, back in the States…My Grandparents, uncles and aunts were carted off to a detention camp in Hood River oregon. I don’t know much about their time in camp, but I do know that my Uncle Chuck and Uncle Hank both joined up and fought as part of the 442nd Reginmental batallion–a group of soldiers whom it is said are to this day, the most highly decorated fighting unit in US military history.
And it was all made up of Japanese Americans.
I later found out that my Uncle Chuck was later recruited by Mc Arthur to be on his translation team for my uncle’s Japanese speaking ability…or so we thought.
I found out that it wasn’t the translation team that he was on…it was McArthur’s interrigation squad. Uncle Chuck received so many death threats from Japanese soldier calling him traitor that he couldn’t count…of all my Uncles, he was the one uncle that spoke the least Japanese as I was growing up…and I can’t ever remember him ever even visitng Japan…now I know why.
Oh, and my dad wasn’t alone in Japan–His brother Jack was with him, but as my dad was only 13 when the war broke out, Jack was 16 and was recruited into the Japanese Imperial Navy as an officer…
When the war ended, Dad bought his way back to the USA by acting as a translator between the Japanese Geishas and the US G.I’s…he could do that because he spoke Englsih, and the geishas ‘worked’ at night, so it didn’t interfere with his schoolwork. One day, as he was walking home from school, the windows of the geisha house were open, and out popped the heads of a couple of ladies, and they waved hello to dad…unfortunatley, who should see this but his teacher..how would these ladies know a 15-year-old-boy?
The next day he was brought in for repremand my the principal, but was immediately let go and sent back to class, much to the incredulity of dad’s teacher…
Y’see, the principal was a frequent customer of the geisha house too…
Dan, great story.
I agree that the atomic bomb hastened the end of the war and was justified. It’s become popular to claim that the Japanese were about to surrender anyway but that flies in the face of logic. While some officials within the government were sending out feelers for negotiations, there is no way the military would allow it. Even after two bombs dropped there were many who wanted to fight on, even in the face of an annihilation that was without any kind of honor or glory.
Everything I’ve seen in regards to the mind of the Japanese military would indicate that they were willing to fight a losing battle on their soil if it would inflict casualties on the Allies. And it would have, not to mention the millions of civilian Japanese lives that would have been lost.
(I believe it has also been said that Japan threatened to execute all Allied prisoners if the mainland were ever to be invaded. I’m sure that number was in the tens of thousands at least. When you also add in the fact that every week the war was prolonged added to the butcher’s bill from a variety of factors it’s not hard to argue that the lives saved by the bomb could easily have numbered in the millions.).
I don’t know how much any of this is applicable to the situation in the Middle East.