People keep talking about how the world changed on 9/11.
It didn’t. The world was filled with terrorists, and bombs, and people living in fear, and attacks on home grounds. The world remained exactly the same. Only our perception of it changed. We became both of and in the world.
It’s five years later. Anyone feeling safer?
I also find it interesting that the Democrats have surrendered the moral high ground in terms of TV presentation. Here the GOP managed to get the Reagan biopic banished to cable because they didn’t like the way it presented their political saint, and now the Democrats managed to get the miniseries on 9/11, based on the findings of the bi-partisan committee, re-edited so that it wouldn’t seem as if President Clinton was too distracted by Monicagate to go after bin Laden…except I find it difficult to believe any reasonable person could think that the harassment over Lewinsky didn’t impede Clinton’s effectiveness on any number of levels.
Quick, kids. There’s some history. Let’s rewrite it.
PAD
• 
It’s been a long day, not least because my current school had a very clear hilltop view of the towers falling 5 years ago and also lost 3 alumni on that day. I figured I’d weigh in at least a little.
While I think there are certainly grounds to ask ABC to change a “docudrama” when the events being presented are demonstrably false, I by and large have to agree that the Democrats didn’t exactly do themselves proud here. I can understand their frustration, since so much network time has been devoted to fellating Bush over the last five years … but unfortunately, that’s not an especially good justification. Not having seen the miniseries or having any plans to, I can’t really discuss the issue beyond that.
As to the rest, I do think the world has changed: it’s gotten meaner. I’m not quite as far into my cynicism as the Rev here, but I think far too much of the world, and the US in particular, suffers from one primary problem: myopia. By and large, people are prone to glorify ignorance over knowledge (much less wisdom), jingoism over partnership, and “winning” over truth, or even a willingness to think about what’s going to do the greatest common good. Sometimes I truly question my own wisdom in bringing a child into this world, even given how wonderful she is. I hope the world we leave her is one worthy of her, but I fear we may be leaving her no world at all.
(It may surprise people that I don’t hold Bush responsible for the above situation. I think the tendencies have gotten much much worse during his tenure, but I actually think he’s far more a symptom than he is a cause.)
Beyond that … I’m not sure I know what I think. Our student body president made a great speech today pointing out the difference between simple remembering (i.e. the “we will never forget” bumper stickers) and actually reflecting on events, placing them into context. It was thoughtful, it was mature … and I’ve no doubt that it will be utterly ignored.
And that’s sad.
TWL
Uhm, Craig, where do you think she’s getting all of that money?
Seriously, life isn’t just a series of stark contrasts between good and evil (although such contrasts do exist — the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were villains, plain and simple). Bill Gates may be a ruthless businessman, but that doesn’t mean he can’t also be capable of great kindness and generosity as well.
“except I find it difficult to believe any reasonable person could think that the harassment over Lewinsky didn’t impede Clinton’s effectiveness on any number of levels.”
I consider myself reasonable, and I don’t believe it had a significant effect. He had people in place who’s job was to do the kinds of terrorist tracking that Bush still isn’t doing. According to Richard Clark, Clinton constantly read political and spy thrillers and asked them if those things were actually possible, even after his personal troubles started. Sometimes the questions were too far out, sometimes they were real issues and actually pushed Clark’s people. Apparently, Clinton really did try to do everything he could, and didn’t hesitate after his scandal got rolling.
Just to be clear, I’m a republican. I didn’t really like Clinton at the time, but I’ve come to respect him more since. PAD, I can understand your position that you think there’s evidence that Clinton slacked off after the scandal, but I disagree that it is completely unreasonable to believe otherwise.
The Rev. Mr. Black: “Easy to give up on the species? Too daunting? Perhaps. Yes, there are exceptional people, people of true courage and selflessness, people willing to die for strangers. But, you see, they are exceptional.”
Rev, I have been called “one of the more reasonable posters” in this blog, a “peacemaker,” and an “upstanding guy.” With this post, I believe I will have cost myself any goodwill I have accrued over the months I have been posting here. Nevertheless, I feel a strong need to express my feelings, regardless of the cost.
You. Are. Wrong.
Period.
I don’t think I’ve ever expressed myself so strongly but I can’t think of anything I feel more strongly about than this. Humanity is not hopeless. Kindness and generosity are not the exception.
Or have you forgotten that after the attacks of September 11, 2001, how relief agencies had received more donations of blood, more volunteers, and more money than they could handle? How they had to tell people, “No, we can’t take any more blood, we have more donations than we know what to do with?”
No, such kindness and generosity are not the exception. Those things coexist with the evil.
Nihilism is the coward’s way out. It’s a thin veil of world-weariness that does a poor job of hiding the fear underneath. It’s the rationalization that says outwardly, “Only fools will fight this hopeless battle,” but says inwardly, “I am too afraid to try because of the risk of failure.”
You say I don’t know you, and that’s true to an extent. I can’t know the totality of you from your posts here. But I can indeed glean something about you from what you’ve said.
Mr. Black (I’m no longer comfortable calling you “Rev” as that’s an honorific I’m not sure you deserve), 2,996 people died on September 11, 2001. People with pasts and presents that could have and should have led to futures. We cannot bring them back to life. But the least we can do for them is to avoid dishonoring their memories by abandoning hope and giving into the evil which is only ONE aspect of that which we call humanity.
We are at war. Like it or not. Want it or not. We need to show courage and resolve. No, I don’t mean we need to agree with the policies of any U.S. presidential administration, past, present, or future. Our courage and resolve must manifest themselves in the steadfast refusal to give up hope, and in the willingness to acknowledge that in spite of our legitimate differences we can be united in a higher purpose that will allow us to disagree while at the same time standing together against a terrible, terrible enemy.
And I put it to you, Mr. Black, that if you are willing to simply dismiss humanity as a failed experiment, you have become part of the problem.
And I put it to you, Mr. Black, that if you are willing to simply dismiss humanity as a failed experiment, you have become part of the problem.
or an adolescent.
ok, we need a laugh. And nothing published in the last 5 years has ever made me chuckle as much as what The Onion published on Sept 26 2001.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38673?issue=4228&special=2001
Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hëll
“We Expected Eternal Paradise For This,’ Say Suicide Bombers”
AHANNEM, OUTER DARKNESS—The hijackers who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon expressed confusion and surprise Monday to find themselves in the lowest plane of Na’ar, Islam’s Hëll.
“I was promised I would spend eternity in Paradise, being fed honeyed cakes by 67 virgins in a tree-lined garden, if only I would fly the airplane into one of the Twin Towers,” said Mohammed Atta, one of the hijackers of American Airlines Flight 11, between attempts to vomit up the wasps, hornets, and live coals infesting his stomach. “But instead, I am fed the boiling feces of traitors by malicious, laughing Ifrit. Is this to be my reward for destroying the enemies of my faith?”
…”I was told that these Americans were enemies of the one true religion, and that Heaven would be my reward for my noble sacrifice,” said Alomari, moments before his jaw was sheared away by faceless homunculi. “But now I am forced to suckle from the 16 poisoned leathern teats of Gophahmet, Whørë of Betrayal, until I burst from an unwholesome engorgement of curdled bile. This must be some sort of terrible mistake.”
Classic stuff.
Bill,
Yes, those things do coexist with the evil — but at the risk of sounding too nihilistic here, do those things last? These days, who gets talked about? About whom are the songs sung? Who do our children (real or hypothetical) see as the movers and shakers of the human race?
On good days, I like to think that you’re right — that we should fight the good fight, and that it can make a difference. On other days, though … I’m really not sure any more. I feel like we’re fighting against a current that may brook no opposition.
TWL
Bill (Mulligan this time),
I remember reading that story when it was first posted. Very, very funny stuff — good man.
TWL
Tim Lynch: “Yes, those things do coexist with the evil — but at the risk of sounding too nihilistic here, do those things last? These days, who gets talked about? About whom are the songs sung? Who do our children (real or hypothetical) see as the movers and shakers of the human race?
“On good days, I like to think that you’re right — that we should fight the good fight, and that it can make a difference. On other days, though … I’m really not sure any more. I feel like we’re fighting against a current that may brook no opposition.”
Tim, I would rather go to my grave having fought a hopeless battle than to die not having fought, and always wondering if I could have made a difference.
At the risk of trivializing this discussion I will turn to the words of Neil Peart, lyricist and drummer for the rock band Rush. He is as eloquent as I pretend to be. These are words from the song “Everyday Glory:”
“If the future’s looking dark, we’re the ones who have to shine / If there’s no one in control, we’re the ones who must draw the line / Though we living in trying times, we’re the ones who have to try / And though we know that time has wings, we’re the ones who have to fly.”
Fair enough, Bill — just felt the need to ask.
(And given how often I tend to quote all sorts of people and things, B5 being a common choice, you are by no means trivializing the discussion!)
TWL
Tim, it’s too easy to see the negative as equal to or greater than the positives. If you have a rug with a stain in it, all you see is the stain.
But can anyone deny that the vast majority of people love their children? Care about their friends? Treat strangers with courtesy? The people who do none of those things stand out as the abberations they are.
I don’t know about you but I’ve had classes that became, in my mind, my “Bad class”, the one I dreaded every day. But never has it been the case that the class was really bad, just that maybe 5 or 6 kids out of a class of 30 were unmanagable. That still leaves the big majority of the kids as just fine (and even a few of the “bad” kids would have been fine if they hadn’t had the others to feed off of).
I’m not naive. We may be in for some bad times ahead. But I have no doubt that our best years are ahead of us and if we get cracking on what needs to be done I may even live to enjoy some of them.
Hey, if we’re quoting songs…
nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight
Got to kick at the darkness ’til it bleeds daylight
Bruce Cockburn, “Lovers In A Dangerous Time”
Tim, it’s too easy to see the negative as equal to or greater than the positives. If you have a rug with a stain in it, all you see is the stain.
But can anyone deny that the vast majority of people love their children? Care about their friends? Treat strangers with courtesy? The people who do none of those things stand out as the abberations they are.
I’ll agree with that, certainly — but in this day and age, is that enough? Plenty of people who love their children don’t seem to think twice about the deaths of other people’s children, and plenty of public figures have made it plain that their friends are good, my friends are bad.
Your class example is dead on (and yes, I’ve had the same experience), and is my main reason for hope: that the next generation can rise above what the current ones are doing.
‘night, all.
TWL
To the “Rev. Mr. Black:”
I re-read your posts and my anger has been replaced with a degree of… concern.
“But when you put the kite in the air a thousand times and it falls to the ground a thousand times, you start to believe that it will never soar.”
That sounds a lot like the kind of thing I used to say when I was severely depressed. I spent years in a black hole of despair, contemplating the ways in which I could end my own life.
I can’t tell from your post if you are suffering from depression in any way, shape, or form. And perhaps I risk making a fool of myself by reaching out to you, someone who may not want it, and for that matter may not need it.
But if there is the slightest chance that you’re going through what I did, I have to say something.
Life is not hopeless. Trust me. I once believed that. I tried to fly my kite one thousand times and it crashed to the ground one thousand times. I believed that was proof of the hopelessness of my situation. And so I thought of ending my own life.
I’m glad I didn’t. The kite flew on the one-thousand-and-first attempt.
If I’m overreacting — if you’re not experiencing anything like what I went through and I’m just making a fool of myself — I’m glad to hear it.
By the way, you know how I got out of that dark pit? With the help of other people. Other very good people.
They’re out there, Rev. They really are.
Oh, all right — one more post.
No song lyrics, but a quote from B5’s finale (particularly for Mr. Mulligan, since he’s said he never got into the series). Ivanova, talking about the station:
It taught us that we have to create the future, or others will do it for us.
It showed us that we have to care for one another, because if we don’t, who will?
And that true strength sometimes comes from the most unlikely places.
Mostly, though, I think it gave us hope that there can always be new beginnings…even for people like us.
TWL
Bill Mulligan: “ok, we need a laugh.”
You’re absolutely right. Say the “f-word” again! It always cracks me up when a teacher drops the “f-bomb.” 😛
Tim — a very appropriate and very beautiful quote. Thanks for sharing.
Nice.
Bill, Bill and Tim. Thank your for your thoughts, in agreement or otherwise. (Bill Mulligan – no I was not offended. I understand where you are coming from and there are actually days when I agree with you … but not lately). Yes, I do suffer from chronic depression and some days are worse than others. It just seems that lately, for every decent act, I seem to witness a thousand indecent ones. I wonder if parents indeed love their children when I see so many obese children fated to struggle with life. I wonder if citizens care for each other when I see drivers threaten the lives of their fellow motorists talking on cellphones, tailgating, etc., etc,. etc You all know the drill.
I sincerely hope my despair these days is ill-founded, but frankly, I’ve lived too long, seen too much, to be optimistic. However, I don’t plan to stop helping people or being courteous or being concerned. Frankly, it’s all I know and, I think, all I want to know.
Thanks guys
(By the way, The Rev is a nickname given to me many years past because, if you had a problem, you went to the Rev for a solution or maybe just a shoulder to cry on. You may be right, Mr. Mulligan – perhaps I no longer deserve it.
For a lot of folks, I think the world did change
I don’t believe that the world changed in any way; however people’s perceptions of it changed markedly. Many peoples’ worlds expanded considerably, to encompass concepts and even people and countries that they had never considered before.
The tragedy lies not in that expansion of perception but in how so many people reacted to it. And the realisation that, had the US been that aware earlier then the whole thing may never have happened.
Yes, that’s a big assumption and could very easily be wrong. But I cannot see that being more aware of how some cultures regarded you could be a bad thing in general. And if you know, then you may be able to start some communication – assuming that they were open to it, which is of course not a given.
The world remained exactly the same. Only our perception of it changed. We became both of and in the world.
PAD, that is just plain weak. That is like saying if I find out that I have cancer, nothing really changed, just my perception of it. Yes, that is true on one level. But I guarantee you that everyone I have ever known who finds out they have cancer, things are never the same.
Not only is it weak, it sure sounds fatalistic. It sounds like we can’t really even make a difference. I am convinced we are safer today. Not that another attack could not happen, but we are definitely more alert (as demonstrated by the British stopping the most recent attempt).
Concerning the movie, the hypocrisy is quite fun to see. Democrats in Congress threatening action if the movie is not stopped. Where are the howls of censorship? I am actually sympathetic to the fact that the docudrama is misleading. But the irony is that some on the Democratic side are now getting a taste of what it means to rewrite history.
Bottom line, I was hoping for something a little more respectful focusing on those who died at the hands of terrorists. And whatever you may think of Bush, the fact is this terrorism was going on long before he even ran for President. He is not the cause of 9/11. Whether he could have stopped it or not is beside the point today. The reality is there are evil men who would kill a democrat as quickly as they would a republican. The agenda of at least some leaders in Islam is the elimination not just of Israel but of Western Culture. And the failure by some to recognize this fact is chilling.
I can respect those who say invading Iraq was the wrong way to handle the threat. But I have no tolerance for those who say Bush is no better than Saddam (which some, not all, on this site and in other media have suggested). Until we as a country unify against the true enemy, there will be another 9/11 sooner than we may imagine.
Iowa Jim
It did change…instead of the Twin Towers, five years later we are having a BS docudrama tell us who really is responsible for letting them give us a hole in the ground.
If nothing demonstrates who won that horrible day, it’s what is not there anymore.
And because we have done nothing in NYC, no I don’t feel safer.
Rev, people get me and Bill Myers mixed up all the time. He’s much taller. (and having met him I can assure you that he’s a good guy who hates to see someone like yourself in despair.
Chronic depression can color one’s perceptions, make you see things in a way that defies logic. I know this from experience and there are others on the board that can say the same. If you ever want to talk about it in private send an email.
And please keep on helping people, it’ll pay you back in ways you may never know.
Not for nothing, but today I saw a flier for a “Patriot Day picnic” and nearly lost my lunch.
As for whether or not I feel safer: No. Too much has been bungled to believe that looking the dresses of 80 year old grandmas will make us safer when we can’t even inspect over 5% of the cargo containers being shipped into this country.
Has any of the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission been implemented yet?
In regards to the ABC mini: If you don’t like it’s political slant, don’t watch it. There you go. Problem solved.
now that the edited version of the docudrama is out, everyone’s saying, “so what was the big deal.”
my understanding is that much of the offending material was ultimately cut. so now the public has no idea what the complaints were about.
it might have been better to let it air as it was, the tear it apart for misinformation.
that said, i can’t blame anyone for complaining about something that they believe slanders them.
however, one bit that i don’t think has been discussed here was the deal with Scholastic to market the film as a teaching aid for history classes.
if the innaccuracies were as significant and partisan as is alleged, then having this shown as part of public school curriculum is kind of scary.
it’s been pointed out that existing textbooks are already pretty bad, but it’s still worth fighting against misinformation in our schools. especially if it’s propagandistic.
an intelligent curriculum could make very good use of the film if, in addition to it presumably having some accurate information, the film was used as a starting point for discussing the concept of misinformation.
on a related note, i can’t help but think that having every high school graduate have a good foundation in logic, rhetoric, debate and at the very least an understanding of some of the classic fallacies might do a lot for political discourse in this country.
PAD, that is just plain weak. That is like saying if I find out that I have cancer, nothing really changed, just my perception of it. Yes, that is true on one level. But I guarantee you that everyone I have ever known who finds out they have cancer, things are never the same.
Not only is it weak, it sure sounds fatalistic.
That’s kind of an interesting take. I have lost most members of my once large family to cancer, and seen a pretty wide variety of ways to handle that particular illness.
By far the most successful attitude I’ve seen was a friend who, after finding she had cancer, that’s exactly what she said: “Nothing really changed. I already had it before I was told. I feel the same as I did yesterday. Why should I allow this to change my life, just because someone gave a name to something in my body that was already there?”
She just continued to live as she had, accommodating her illness physically, but not emotionally or spiritually. And boy did she have a good life. And inspired others in my family, too. Gave her a lot of power to make the choices best for her.
Weak? Fatalistic? Not her. Strong and self-possessed.
What have we learned in the 5 years after 9/11? That Bush and Company are complete and utter scum.
Not a single thing has TRULY been done to make this country one iota safer.
We’re in an era in which people are actually being led to believe that the best way to fight enemies who hate our way of life and our freedoms is to give up some of those freedoms to “protect” us. This is appalling, especially when there is NO absolute enemy.
To Bill Mulligan: I read that Sun-Gazette link and I have to say I came away with a somewhat different take. The politician wasn’t making 9/11 “political”. He uttered a truth. He said that our policies were causing people to hate us and some nitwit in the audience decided to shout him down (I’m becoming so cynical at this point that I wouldn’t be surprised if the audience member had been a GOP plant–the speaker was a Democrat, after all). It was HATE for us that led to the hijackings and the downfall of the Towers and the attack on the Pentagon. And what our “leaders” have done since then–especially with regard to Iraq and, more recently, Lebanon–have not earned us any admiration around the world. Dubya has spent most of the past 5 years USING 9/11 to get what he wants or, at the very least, as justification for what he wants. I’d also note that I read that when Dubya decided to lay wreaths at Ground Zero, he did so in the company of fellow GOPers, Pataki, Bloomburg and Giuliani, but apparently devoid of New York’s two Democratic Senators (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/10/AR2006091000679.html). Both of New York’s Senators were in office on 9/11, representing not only the State but the City, yet apparently neither was “worthy” to be seen with Dubya at the wreath-laying ceremony. Now, why would that be if there’s no politics about 9/11?
The Rev. Mr. Black: “Yes, I do suffer from chronic depression and some days are worse than others.”
Rev, I never thought I’d pull out of my own depression. I did. It took a few years of psychotherapy, medication which I still take to this day, and the support of my friends, but I made it through. I haven’t had a severe depression in ten years.
If you aren’t getting treatment, please, get it.
The Rev. Mr. Black: “By the way, The Rev is a nickname given to me many years past because, if you had a problem, you went to the Rev for a solution or maybe just a shoulder to cry on. You may be right, Mr. Mulligan – perhaps I no longer deserve it.”
Actually, it was me, Mr. Myers, who questioned whether or not you deserve it. KEEP THE NICKNAME, REV. I attacked you out of anger, and I was wrong for doing so. I really should have seen your despair for what it was, because I’ve been there. If I wasn’t so inflexible these days, I would kick myself.
I can be a royal áššhølë sometimes. That’s all on my shoulders, Rev, not yours.
Feel free to e-mail me if you ever need to talk with someone who has been where you are today. The address is bill.myers@billmyerscreations.com.
I mean it. I know what you are going through and would be happy to lend an ear.
And there IS hope, Rev. Hang in there.
“The world remained exactly the same. Only our perception of it changed. We became both of and in the world.
PAD, that is just plain weak. That is like saying if I find out that I have cancer, nothing really changed, just my perception of it.”
It’s “like saying” that only in that both sentences were in English. Not only is it an inept simile, it requires that you reword what I said in order to make a wrong point. Find me where I said “nothing really changed.” Can’t find it? That’s because I didn’t say it. You said that I said it, which is not the same thing. So howzabout you stick to what I said and not reword it to your liking, okay?
PAD
“PAD, that is just plain weak. That is like saying if I find out that I have cancer, nothing really changed, just my perception of it. Yes, that is true on one level. But I guarantee you that everyone I have ever known who finds out they have cancer, things are never the same.
Not only is it weak, it sure sounds fatalistic.”
And, again, it is not what I said. As is typical, IJ elevates his need to attack what I said above the need to accurately quote or read what I said. He’s the one who claimed I said “nothing changed.” I never said that. Simply reading my posting with an unbiased eye, which IJ cannot do, should discern that.
PAD
To Bill Mulligan: I read that Sun-Gazette link and I have to say I came away with a somewhat different take. The politician wasn’t making 9/11 “political”. He uttered a truth. He said that our policies were causing people to hate us and some nitwit in the audience decided to shout him down (I’m becoming so cynical at this point that I wouldn’t be surprised if the audience member had been a GOP plant–the speaker was a Democrat, after all). It was HATE for us that led to the hijackings and the downfall of the Towers and the attack on the Pentagon. And what our “leaders” have done since then–especially with regard to Iraq and, more recently, Lebanon–have not earned us any admiration around the world. Dubya has spent most of the past 5 years USING 9/11 to get what he wants or, at the very least, as justification for what he wants. I’d also note that I read that when Dubya decided to lay wreaths at Ground Zero, he did so in the company of fellow GOPers, Pataki, Bloomburg and Giuliani, but apparently devoid of New York’s two Democratic Senators (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/10/AR2006091000679.html). Both of New York’s Senators were in office on 9/11, representing not only the State but the City, yet apparently neither was “worthy” to be seen with Dubya at the wreath-laying ceremony. Now, why would that be if there’s no politics about 9/11?
If Senators Schumer and Clinton wished to be at the memorial by all means they should have been there. Is there evidence that this was the case or are you assuming that their absence was a deliberate snub on Bush’s part? (Neither Senator strikes me as the sort who would take such an affront without comment.)
As for Congressman Moran’s statement I stand by what I said and I’d feel the same if he had taken the opportunity to lavish praise on the president instead. The “nitwit” (who said that her brother had died on 9/11 and not to make the day political) had it right. Shouldn’t be too hard for some enterprising reporter to find out if she’s genuine or a plant.
I’m tired of people who take the opportunity given them at funerals, memorials, graduations, wedding toasts, whatever, to puff themselves up and clumsily push their agenda, even if I think their version is the “truth”.
Upon further review I discover that this Jim Moran is the same idiot who blamed Jews for the war in Iraq.
“If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this. The leaders of the Jewish community are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is going, and I think they should.”
Why this guy is invited to comment on ANYTHING is beyond me, unless Al Jazeer is looking for some pithy commentary.
You know, I find it funny that people are calling Bush scum and railing about how horrible Republicans are when, in this topic about The Road to 9/11, it was the entire Democrat party that was trying, so very very hard to black ball ABC/Disney into changing the facts about what happened during the Clinton Administration and nobody really wants to talk about that. They want to avoid the fact that the party that is SUPPOSE to be about freedoms and fighting for the “little people” (as they keep telling us they are doing) is in fact the party acting like facist dictators, threatening ABC’s liscencing for showing a documentary, meanwhile.. The “evil” Republicans have done NOTHING about the fact that the New York Times released secure information that is a threat to national security and endangered the lives of many soldiers (not to mention that whoever leaked the information to New York Times performed what is paramount to an act of treason by aiding and abedding the enemy and hampering any attempts to actually CATCH terrorists) NOR have the “Nazi-like” Republicans done anything to the company that made Michael Moore’s Mockumentary, Farenheitt 9/11 or anything to Michael Moore himself. It’s too bad nobody botheres to look at their terminology and think a bit about which group is acting more like facists.
>>”The world remained exactly the same. Only our perception of it changed. We became both of and in the world.
>PAD, that is just plain weak. That is like saying if I find out that I have cancer, nothing really changed, just my perception of it. Yes, that is true on one level. But I guarantee you that everyone I have ever known who finds out they have cancer, things are never the same.
While your latter point is true, it actually seems to support Peter’s statement even more. The only thing that changes when one discovers that he/she has cancer. They had cancer prior to discovering it. It is the revelation and realization that has changed. The body was already dying before this point.
Malkie,
You must be reading a different thread than the rest of us. The thread for barely-literate folks reciting talk radio talking points is down the road a ways.
Safe journeys!
TWL
Bill Myers –
Uhm, Craig, where do you think she’s getting all of that money?
I think you miss the point, Bill. If not for his wife, Bill Gates wouldn’t be this grand philanthropist everybody is suddenly making him out to be.
Let’s not forget some of the specifics involved in what Gates & Microsoft have done at times. Such as in one of the cases where MS was accused of abusing their monopoly, and the solution was to give computers (with Windows, of course), to schoools.
As one of my favorite authors wrote: “When (Gates) got married, Melinda was the one who got him to start giving in areas that didn’t involved (sic) 1) computers and 2) putting more MS products into people’s hands”.
Iowa Jim –
Until we as a country unify against the true enemy, there will be another 9/11 sooner than we may imagine.
Of course, which is why Bush used the anniversary of 9/11 to once again attempt justify the war in Iraq.
(sarcasm)Yeah, unity is really on the horizon.(/sarcasm)
That man has done more to piss on the memories of those lost on 9/11 than just about anybody else on this planet. But we’re supposed to support him? Give me a break.
You want real change? You want real peace? There’s only one way–we lose.
The Western world either dies or converts to Islam. Its the only way we’ll get real peace.
Peter David knew this a long time ago when he created the Maestro.
Quite a few things I want to touch on, so please forgive me for jumping around:
indestructibleman: however, one bit that i don’t think has been discussed here was the deal with Scholastic to market the film as a teaching aid for history classes.
It’s my understanding that Scholastic pulled the material from the schools, isn’t that correct? But yes, it is troubling that a respectable producer of educational materials would allow itself to be used to distribute something that looks like it was originally intended to be a “blame everything on Clinton getting a bløw jøb” piece of partisan propaganda.
Now, I didn’t watch the “docudrama” (too busy enjoying watching the New Jersey Giants get beat on Sunday), so I don’t know how much of the questionable material actually got broadcast, but I did flip over and catch the disclaimer they ran at the beginning, which said that they used “fictionalized” accounts, “composite characters” and “time compression” and that it was based on the 9/11 Report “among other sources”. And yet they still claimed it was an accurate accounting of the events leading up to 9/11.
I find the continue blurring of the line between fiction and documentaries in the media to be very troubling. Michael Moor did a lot to contribute to this trend, it’s true. And I also am deeply disturbed by the British “fictional documentary”, “Death of a President” in which the image of Bush is digitally inserted into a fictional assassination. We’ve gone too far done the path of newsertainment for my taste.
Neil C.: That’s kind of an interesting take. I have lost most members of my once large family to cancer, and seen a pretty wide variety of ways to handle that particular illness.
My sympathies to your family. The people I’ve known to have suffered from cancer have ranged from those that have persevered on and continued to live life as best as they could to those that shut themselves away from society for years at a time. There is no single reaction to something like as serious as that. People’s reactions to tragedy can run the gamut. Some people spend more time in one or more of the five stages than others.
Joseph W.:What have we learned in the 5 years after 9/11? That Bush and Company are complete and utter scum.
While Joseph’s wording may be stronger than some people would like it to be. I would agree with his assessment. The Bush administration’s shameless exploitation of 9/11 to justify their every action over the past five years, while at the same time, deflecting all responsibility for their own failures onto previous administrations, has been nothing short of reprehensible.
Bill Myers: Rev, I never thought I’d pull out of my own depression.
At the risk of turning PAD’s blog into a depression support group, after years of denial, I’ve finally sought help from my depression. Some days are still a struggle just to pull myself out of bed, but I can honestly say that I am happier today than I was a year ago. Hang in there Rev, things can get better.
Bill Mulligan: If Senators Schumer and Clinton wished to be at the memorial by all means they should have been there. Is there evidence that this was the case or are you assuming that their absence was a deliberate snub on Bush’s part? (Neither Senator strikes me as the sort who would take such an affront without comment.)
This is just speculation, but I highly doubt that any politician, had they been invited, would have passed up an opportunity for such an historic photo op, especially one that allegedly has presidential ambitions. Public comments, however, might have severely backfired as she could have come across as crass and exploitative.
On the other hand, the Shanksville, PA wreath-laying ceremony was attended by Senators Specter (R), Santorum (R), and Gov. Rendell (D), so that event appears to have at least been a bi-partisan effort. Whether it was because Rendell was a governor and not a senator or whether NY politics are different (Rendell’s reelection race has been remarkedly low-key in comparison to Santorum’s), I can’t say.
Bill Mulligan: Upon further review I discover that this Jim Moran is the same idiot who blamed Jews for the war in Iraq.
In that case, Moran is indeed an idiot and should be ignored in all cases.
Tim Lynch: You must be reading a different thread than the rest of us. The thread for barely-literate folks reciting talk radio talking points is down the road a ways.
I’d suggest attytood.com. It has a lively and hate-filled discussion where neither side fails to hit on the key talking points. This discussion here has been remarkably civil.
Craig J. Ries I think you miss the point, Bill. If not for his wife, Bill Gates wouldn’t be this grand philanthropist everybody is suddenly making him out to be.
Be that as it may, he does deserve credit for the good he is doing with his life, just as he deserves the blame for the bad. Not everyone can achieve the lifetime of saintliness of Gandhi or Mother Teresa, but let’s give Bill props for seeing the light.
The Western world either dies or converts to Islam. Its the only way we’ll get real peace.
The corrollary to that argument is that the only way for us to survive as a culture is to utterly destroy Islam. I don’t think we are prepared to do that. Actually, if we really do want peace, then we have to not only battle the extremists, but we have to also support legitimate reformers of Islam so that it becomes less vulnerable to extremists ideology. Lots of attrocities were once justified in the name of Christianity. Those days are over (except for a tiny minority) because Christians have learned to get along peaceably with other faiths and belief systems. Islam, if it is to survive in the modern global society, will have to undergo a similar transformation.
Peter’s Right.
Nothing has changed. Nothing EVER changes.
Think things are gonna change in November? Even if the Dem’s win? Hëll no. You’re just replacing wittless with clueless. Who cares?
Nothing’ll ever change unless someone pushes a button and the mushroom clouds start flyin’. See, that’s just it…everyone has this itch to push the button and so far people have had enough self control to not scratch…
But that ain’t gonna last. Just like rules were meant to be broken, weapons were made to eventually be used.
Actually, when you think about it, it’ll be rather entertaining…the ultimate reality show.
Nukes going off, the death, the devastation…dámņ entertaining…gotta love it.
Peter David was right? Hëll, George Carlin was right.
“The corrollary to that argument is that the only way for us to survive as a culture is to utterly destroy Islam. I don’t think we are prepared to do that. Actually, if we really do want peace, then we have to not only battle the extremists, but we have to also support legitimate reformers of Islam so that it becomes less vulnerable to extremists ideology.”
–And Bush ain’t doing that now? If that’s what needs to be done, how’s some DEM yahoo gonna do it any better? Like I said, nothing’s gonna change.
” Lots of attrocities were once justified in the name of Christianity. Those days are over (except for a tiny minority) because Christians have learned to get along peaceably with other faiths and belief systems. Islam, if it is to survive in the modern global society, will have to undergo a similar transformation.”
—Yeah, but Richard the Lionhearted didn’t have NUKES. And Christianity DID NOT learn to get along peaceably with other faiths—it became the dominant world religion. Even today, the number of believers in other faiths pales in comparison.
Like I said, give ’em what they want–convert to Islam.
BTW, I loved your last line–“Islam, if it is to survive in the modern global society, will have to undergo a similar transformation.”
And what if it don’t? Whacha gon’ DO then, beeeatch? Go to WAR with them? NUKE Them?
(sorry–been reading Peter’s book on writing comics, and was getting into character…)
Thank you for proving my point.
Dan Nakagawa –
–And Bush ain’t doing that now?
To some degree, yes. To some degree, no.
We continue to prop up as many dictatorships in Islam and other parts of the world (Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan) as we support Islamic countries that actually seem to be making a push for real reform (Egypt, Jordan).
As it is, we’re not making enough of an effort in Afghanistan, which is just reverting back to the Taliban days in some parts of the country, and pre-Taliban days in others – opium, anyone?
Btw, Keith Olbermann strikes gold again
Dan Nakagawa: “Nothing has changed. Nothing EVER changes.”
I have to disagree. At one time, slavery was a legal and commonly accepted practice throughout the Western world. Today, there are no Western industrialized nations where slavery is legal.
Things can and do change.
Change, however, is rarely catalyzed by one super-powerful individual. Often it is the result of lots of small efforts by lots of individuals.
Dan Nakagawa: “Think things are gonna change in November? Even if the Dem’s win? Hëll no. You’re just replacing wittless with clueless. Who cares?”
I care. If more people would vote, and get involved in politics at the grass-roots level, political parties would be more responsive to the needs of the people. It would break the choke-hold that the extremist elements have on both major parties.
Dan Nakagawa: “Nothing’ll ever change unless someone pushes a button and the mushroom clouds start flyin’. See, that’s just it…everyone has this itch to push the button and so far people have had enough self control to not scratch…
“But that ain’t gonna last. Just like rules were meant to be broken, weapons were made to eventually be used.”
They can’t “use” themselves. And if enough nations get proactive about nuclear disarmament, and finding and destroying “loose” nukes, your apocalyptic scenario may not come true.
I remember when the doomsayers predicted that the “Millenium Bug” would bring down the world. It didn’t. Not even close. Because the threat was taken seriously and acted upon.
Don’t think your politicians are taking the threat seriously enough? Then do something about it. Let them know how you feel in no uncertain terms. Organize grass-roots campaigns. The Internet makes it easier than ever before.
Dan Nakagawa: “Actually, when you think about it, it’ll be rather entertaining…the ultimate reality show.
“Nukes going off, the death, the devastation…dámņ entertaining…gotta love it.”
No. No I don’t “gotta love it.” I find that life is very much worth living, and humanity is very much worth fighting for. I don’t see any entertainment value in your scenario.
Dan, I’m not telling you for sure that we can win this fight, because I’m not sure. I’m not telling you the odds aren’t against us, because I believe they are. But that doesn’t mean the fight’s not worth fighting.
Another quote from Rush, this time from the song “Resist:”
“You can surrender without a prayer / But never really pray, pray without surrender / You can fight, fight without ever winning / But never, ever win, win without a fight…”
–And Bush ain’t doing that now?
As Craig said, to some extent he is and to some extent, he isn’t. I don’t think his recent embracing of the term “Islamofascism” is a step in the right direction, though. What we need are reformers in every corner of the Islamic world, not just in those corners where we find it convenient. That means reformers even countries that are nonimally our “friends”, like Saudi Arabia.
Could things be different under “some Dem yahoo”? Sorry, I’m not taking that bait. Diplomacy is more about personality and character, not party affiliation. Reagan and George HW Bush both had skilled diplomats in their administrations. This Bush, however, has shown nothing but contempt for whole idea of diplomacy. And without diplomacy, we have no hope of formenting any reform movement.
Yeah, but Richard the Lionhearted didn’t have NUKES. And Christianity DID NOT learn to get along peaceably with other faiths—it became the dominant world religion. Even today, the number of believers in other faiths pales in comparison.
Better take a refresher in statistics. While Christianity is the largest single religion, it is far from being the “dominant world religion.” Only 1/6 of the world identifies itself as being Christian. And if current birth rates continue, Islam may soon surpass Christianity just by out breeding.
Nukes going off, the death, the devastation…dámņ entertaining…gotta love it.
Oh grow up.
And what if it don’t? Whacha gon’ DO then, beeeatch? Go to WAR with them? NUKE Them?
Seriously, the adults here are trying to have a serious discussion.
Do you really think nuking a region that stretchs from North Africa to Malaysia and the Philipines is a viable strategy? Like it or noth, Islam is going to have to learn to co-exist with Christianity and vice-versa because the alternative is nothing but death for both sides.
“At one time, slavery was a legal and commonly accepted practice throughout the Western world. Today, there are no Western industrialized nations where slavery is legal.”
–Who cares if its legal or not–its still being done. People hire illegal immigrants so that they can pay them slave wages to do work they are either too lazy or too arrogant to do themselves–oh, so that’s not ‘technically’ slavery? Splittin’ hairs, dude.
“Change, however, is rarely catalyzed by one super-powerful individual. Often it is the result of lots of small efforts by lots of individuals.”
–So, you would agree that none of this ‘change’ since 9/11 is really Bush’s fault? Your theory, in order to be valid, has to work both ways, bucko.
“I care. If more people would vote, and get involved in politics at the grass-roots level, political parties would be more responsive to the needs of the people. It would break the choke-hold that the extremist elements have on both major parties”
–Then maybe EVERYONE ought to vote INDEPENDENT in November…vote for whoever you dámņ well feel like–hëll, vote for Peter David!
“And if enough nations get proactive about nuclear disarmament, and finding and destroying “loose” nukes, your apocalyptic scenario may not come true.”
–I lived in Japan where owning handguns is illegal–crime still exists there…the knife has just replaced the pistol. Like they said in Jurrasic Park–Life finds a way…you don’t beleive me? You know how to make crystal meth????
“I remember when the doomsayers predicted that the “Millenium Bug” would bring down the world. It didn’t. Not even close. Because the threat was taken seriously and acted upon.”
–That’s because everyone together perceived the bug to be a threat, and acted cooperated. You may get America to believe that Nukes are a threat, but just try convincing North Korea…good luck, cuz’ I don’t think that they are gonna go for ‘Okay, I’ll take down mine, so you take down yours, okay?’
“Don’t think your politicians are taking the threat seriously enough? Then do something about it. Let them know how you feel in no uncertain terms. Organize grass-roots campaigns. The Internet makes it easier than ever before.”
–People don’t listen…they are, in the words of Pink Floyd “comfortably numb.” Politicians know that. The Internet is a joke–both sides have learned to use to their advantage–is it any wonder why God told Eve not to eat the apple?
“I find that life is very much worth living, and humanity is very much worth fighting for. I don’t see any entertainment value in your scenario.”
–Oh come on! I think humanity is worth fighting for–just not THIS particular humanity. People don’t give a dámņ about each other–if they do, its only for a miniute or so…pathetic, really.
Besides, look at the shows on TV these days–Lost, Survivor, Survivorman, Fear Factor, etc–all these shows that look like they’re designed to help you survive in the event of a NUCLEAR WAR! See, the powers that be know dámņ well that John Q. Public is too stupid to memorize survival manuals, but he CAN remember “that episode of Survivor where___________” Hëll, even this season’s Survivor has been split up according to race—in this era of political correctlness, don’t you think that’s strange? Almost as if they want to know exactly what each race’s chance of survival are?
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!
“Diplomacy is more about personality and character, not party affiliation”
–Yeah, tell that to Neville Chaimberlin.
“While Christianity is the largest single religion, it is far from being the “dominant world religion.” Only 1/6 of the world identifies itself as being Christian. And if current birth rates continue, Islam may soon surpass Christianity just by out breeding.”
–You won the battle, but lost the war, dude…okay, so Christianity is the ‘largest’ religion, not the ‘dominant’ religion–its still the 500-pound gorilla, okay? But like you said, the more breeding, the more the relgion will spread. We may become Muslim whether we want to or not.
“Seriously, the adults here are trying to have a serious discussion.”
–No you’re not. You folks here haven’t said anything that I haven’t heard on any talk radio station. I was just trying to inject a little humor here…I mean really, how serious a discussion can you have on a blog of a webisite of a guy that writes comic books for a living (no offense, Peter.)?
“Do you really think nuking a region that stretchs from North Africa to Malaysia and the Philipines is a viable strategy? Like it or noth, Islam is going to have to learn to co-exist with Christianity and vice-versa because the alternative is nothing but death for both sides.”
–Uh, yeah…I think that’s why they call it WORLD WAR III…you know, ARMAGEDDON? Besides,looking at it from the Christian/Muslim persoective, the alternatives is NOT death, but eternal afterlife…you think Armageddon is supposed to SCARE them? From a relgious perspective, they’re only visiting this planet.
Its the atheists and agnostics that are gonna get screwed….
You folks here haven’t said anything that I haven’t heard on any talk radio station.
Neither have you, for that matter. Actually, your attempts to sound pithy and clever sound more like talk radio points than anything else said here. You even hit the highlights: Neville Chamberlain, World War III, convert or die. Everything you said sounds like it was pulled directly from talk radio.
Dan Nakagawa: “I mean really, how serious a discussion can you have on a blog of a webisite of a guy that writes comic books for a living?”
That’s a rhetorical question, so I won’t bother to answer it. I will say this, though: I believe the bulk of the conversations here are quite intelligent. I believe you are sincere in your desire to merely “inject some humor,” but I can also tell you that, from my perspective, you’re failing to do so. Furthermore, I believe you are lowering the quality of the conversation, not because you disagree with me, but because you are expressing yourself in snarky little soundbites. From my perspective, you sound more like an talkshow on AM radio than most of the rest of the posters here.
Dan, you seem to be an intelligent and impassioned individual. Why not try toning things down a bit and engaging in a dialog, rather than all of this cyber-snark? You might be surprised at how worthwhile the results will be.
Mind you, if you want to continue with the snark, it’s no skin off my nose. But I certainly can’t spend anymore time engaging in conversation with you if you do. I just have too many things to do to be bothered to engage in non-productive conversations.