John Byrne has several popular lies he likes to tell about me. One of his favorites jus resurfaced over on his board in a thread about whether the internet has ruined comics, in which he responds to the following set-up line–
“Wasn’t the ending to Alpha Flight #12 spoiled at a comic convention by another comic professional?”
–with the following lie:
“Peter David handed out xeroxes of Guardian’s death at a con about a month before the book shipped.”
Nnnnnno. A popular lie of John’s, but no. Number one, it wasn’t at a convention; it was at a get-together for retailers. Number two, it wasn’t Guardian’s death. It was an unlettered two page dream sequence in which Heather was seeing a dessicated Guardian tearing out the ground. Number three, it was part of a package of about two dozen photocopied highlights from assorted Marvel titles. Number four, the material in question was handed to me by Denny O’Neil, the book’s editor when I–in my capacity as sales manager at the time–was going around collecting material to put into the package. And when I said to him, “Are you sure you want me to include this in the material?” Denny replied, “Sure, what’s the harm?” Number five, retailers at the get together had no idea that the sequence actually indicated that Guardian really died. I know this because when John showed up at the get-together, he looked at the material, screamed at me at the top of his lungs, “How could you be showing this to retailers?!? It gives away the fact that Guardian dies!” and stormed out of the room, slowing only long enough to kick over a standing ashtray on his way out. At which point stunned retailers said, “Guardian DIES?,” started looking at the xeroxes again, and were muttering, “I thought it was just a dream sequence…”
Set your watches. I’m sure John will be hauling out the equally fun “Peter David was so stupid he had a character fall to his death underwater” lie sometime within the next six months. That’s one of his favorites.
PAD
• 
spiderrob8 wrote: …and I mean no disrepsect to L…”
None was taken. I do see your point and I do understand why they might have reason to be paranoid of any newcomers. To be fair, many of the regular forumers over there have graciously defended me, even against Byrne. I’ve left that forum (unless something comes up where I feel compelled beyond reason) as I feel there is nothing more to be gained from continuing. What Byrne does not seem to understand, is that I have never called him a liar, nor am I trying to trap him. He says it happened one way, and I never tried to disprove this. It may not sound right to me, but that’s neither here nor there. I just wanted to know, if the scenario was as he described, why he blames Peter David. That’s what he refuses to answer. And his refusal is what actually ruins his credibility.
Bill Myers wrote: “…Again, L. Walker, if I were wearing a hat I’d tip it in your direction…”
Appreciated, but really, I was just going after the gaps in logic in Byrne’s argument that your initial questioning provided. And no… I’m not a lawyer (though I take the suggestion as a high compliment), I write comic books. No doubt my girlfriend would wish the answer was the opposite for reasons of economics.
Well, Matthew Hansel, who is a Byrne member with 2300 posts, is also a moderator on the O’Neil board and has deleted the question regarding this incident. That would be one thing, but he then goes on to say that he’s sure Denny would just agree with JB, anyway. Here’s the quote:
“Hmmmm…I’ve just deleted the posts at the Denny O’Neil board which were, in my opinion, poorly phrased questions designed to incite a certain reaction and also designed to cause trouble.
NOTE: If others try this, I will delete their messages, too.
*****
Oh, god, that’s just too dámņ funny. Byrne has witnesses, but if someone tries to ask said witness a question, one of his boys deletes the question… and promises to delete all future attempts to get Denny to weigh in on this subject.
Which is the fun of trying to debate Byrne on any subject. There’s always someone there manipulating reality to support Byrne’s version. This is just one of the few times they’ve been able to manipulate reality on another message board to prevent a person who “vas dere” (when Byrne wasn’t and PAD was) from giving an account of what happened.
L. Walker: “Appreciated, but really, I was just going after the gaps in logic in Byrne’s argument that your initial questioning provided.”
Well, we make a fine tag team, then, eh?
L. Walker: “And no… I’m not a lawyer (though I take the suggestion as a high compliment), I write comic books. No doubt my girlfriend would wish the answer was the opposite for reasons of economics.”
Funny, I want to write comic-books. I bet my girlfriend might wish I had other aspirations for the same reasons as yours! 🙂
Well, Matthew Hansel, who is a Byrne member with 2300 posts, is also a moderator on the O’Neil board and has deleted the question regarding this incident. That would be one thing, but he then goes on to say that he’s sure Denny would just agree with JB, anyway.
Nope. No conflict of interest there…
Wow, that sure is an effective way of dealing with an issue…prevent anyone else from chiming in.
Seems to me that if JB was so secure in his version of events, he’d go ahead and let O’Neil respond, or at least give him the option to.
And it seems to me that if I had a board in my name to communicate with my fans (were I to have fans) I’d not want a board administrator that edits for presentation, rather then content. But that’s just me.
So, Mr. Hansel is sure that Denny O’Neil will back JB’s verision, but he’s going to delete any attempt to ask Mr. O’Neil about it?
Riiiiiiiiight.
Again, the sycophants define “causing trouble” as “anything short of blind worship of JB”.
At the very least, he could have “phrased the question correctly” to allow Denny O’Neil the opportunity to speak on the subject.
I know if I were editor and I had an unreasonable ášš in my face complaining about some guy from sales spoiling a book, I’d be reluctant to say, “ummm, that was me.” Sometimes it’s best to let impotent rage run its course and stay out of the way… even if you’re the true source.
Jerry C:
What bad WWE news?
You know..
PAD is from Long Island.
Mick Foley is from Long Island.
Pad is…portly
Mick Foley is portly.
PAD is a NYT Best selling author
Mick Foley is a best selling author.
PAD has appeared in comic books
Mick Foley has appeared in comic books.
Has anyone actually seen PAD and Mick Foley in the same place at the same time?
“Jerry C:
What bad WWE news?”
Good and bad. Kurt Angle and WWE have parted ways over concerns for Kurt’s health. Bad cause I love seeing Kurt in action. Good because the man wouldn’t stop working at 150% evertime he stepped into the ring and we were starting to worry that his injuries and bang ups were gonna kill him if he didn’t take some time off.
############################################
Question:
How many of you guys are headed for Dragon Con this weekend? I know I’ve joked more then a few times over the years that I owe one person or another a drink. It may be one of the few times you can cash that it.
Kurt Angel was looking to be the next Eddy Guererro. He’s brought us so much entertainment in his time in the WWE, it’s a shame to see inuries and outside issues bring him down. I hope he can get it all straightened out. Even if he never wrestles again he has the smarts and charisma to be an effective part of the business.
After the deleting of the question on the Denny O’Neil board…that sound you hear? It’s the death rattle of any scintilla of thought I had to take Byrne’s position seriously. Check and mate. PAD wins. For what little winning a fight with John Byrne is worth.
My two cents:
1. Even if PAD did show pages from AF #12 to RETAILERS, what would be so wrong with that? Wouldn’t alerting the people that sell your books about a major story point that their customers might be interested in be a GOOD thing?
2. And if PAD did show the AF pages to retailers and they got into the hands of fans, shouldn’t Byrne be more upset with the retailer instead of PAD?
3. If Byrne’s story of advance art pages being so readilt availiable are to believed, then the Sales department at Marvel is the most powerful force in comics. Why did Crystar, Dazzler ad Micronauts V2 fail? Because they yahoos in the sales department didn’t steal their artwork to be advertised!
4. We have a witness who could collaborate either side. Byrne’s cronies squash any access to him. So, to Matt Hansel, it’s better that Denny NOT answer the question and let Byrne’s “good name” be sullied than let O’Neil settle the issue in Byrne’s favor once and for all. There’s something rotten in THAT state of Denmark.
5. I love the fractured reality Byrne and his cronies live in. Say whatever you want! If people try to prove you wrong, squash it! If you are proven wrong, blame someone else! I wish I had that luxury.
Bill
Matt is friends I believe with Denny, or at least has talked to him many, many times. Something like that. He’s seems to be pretty familiar with Byrne and Denny, if from the net, if nothing else.
Just for what it is worth.
I could see the POV that the last thing anyone needs is yet another creator feud.
If I were O’neal, I wouldn’t touch this.
So, no witness testimony, so it’s done to which sequence of events you think is more logical.
And I should point out that doubting Byrne’s version of events does not mean that Denny is lying… it could simply mean *Byrne* is lying about what Denny said, which, you know, isn’t that inconceiveable. This is the man who reworked his Danger Unlimited #3 sales figures from just shy of 50,000 (as quoted in the hardcover) to 10,000 (in a fairly recent post) to matyr himself just a bit more.
If it makes Byrne look a little more like a victim, he’s all about changing the facts.
Bill Mulligan: “After the deleting of the question on the Denny O’Neil board…that sound you hear? It’s the death rattle of any scintilla of thought I had to take Byrne’s position seriously. Check and mate. PAD wins. For what little winning a fight with John Byrne is worth.”
Because I am an idiot in the extreme, I left one more post for John, in which I called him and his fans out for this you-must-believe-me-or-Denny-is-a-liar crap.
I call myself an “idiot” for so doing because it won’t change anything.
I stopped reading John’s board months ago because I got so sick of his arrogance and condescension. Nothing’s changed since then. Time, I think, to walk away and never ever look back.
Life’s too short. WAAAAYYY too short.
True. It really is! It isn’t worth getting worked up by something so trivial, or by a place you get no joy from being! I fear byrnerobotics does him far more harm than good.
Addendum:
When I was a young’un, the thought of doing anything — ANYTHING — that would in any way put me on the bad side of a towering talent like John Byrne horrified me!
Here I am now, 36 years old, having long ago realized that my favorite creators are, y’know, human beings. Like me. Their works are in some cases still towers. The men and women, however… are human.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to be a kid again. I love the possibilities and growing wisdom that come with being an adult.
But, every once in awhile, I wish I could have back at least some small measure of my childhood innocence.
Then I remember that I have bills to pay and think, “Aw, šhìŧ…”
John Byrne said:
“David is quick to unleash the L-word.”
I called him a Lesbian?
PAD
Years back, I joined the Warren Ellis Forum mostly to argue with him, having not read a single Ellis story I had ever enjoyed.
By the time it shut down, I was a fan and agreed with him far more often than not. Still argued with him, but never felt he treated me unfairly, no matter how heated the argument… there were even times he sided with me over his mods, because he thought *they* were the ones taking offense where none was meant.
That’s how an on-line presense is supposed to work. Open a dialogue, get some back-and-forth going, get them curious enough to check out your work, and hook ’em if you can.
Byrne was pretty much the opposite affect. I signed on as a bit of a lapsed fan, mostly to argue with him… and by the time I was banned, I was having a hard time enjoying those stories I used to like, because I could see his blow-hard opinions everywhere. The topless She-Hulk story… him blasting coloring mistakes. Spider-Man correcting Franklin for calling him “Spidey”… oh, jeez. It really was a disasterous peak behind the curtain.
Jerry C: Wasn’t sure if you meant Angle (which was a few days ago) or something worse, like Big Show in Hëll In The Cell….or that you were being forced to see a The Marine/See No Evil double feature.
Spiderrob…can this Matt at least confirm if Denny O’Neil is still alive?
Well going through the comments since I posted my last one I see an occasional knock or two in my direction. They all seem to miss the point of what I was asking. Clearly since PAD hasn’t really offered up anything to support his take, and John Byrne holds to his belief of the events we really do get down to a few indisputable events and a whole lot of back and forth jostling. It does amuse me that because I quite openly admitted right from the start that I do regularily post on the Byrne board that I am considered an automatic defender of his. I just wanted to see if either John Byrne or PAD had anything concrete to offer to back up this unfortunate set of circumstances 20+ years ago. Clearly that isn’t happening.
So I am out of here. It’s obvious nothing will be resolved on either board about this.
Byrne directly contradicts himself. At one point he denies he ever said PAD handed out the previews out of any negative intent. However, when he’s telling his side of the story he says “I demanded to know what the %#$@ he was doing sabotaging a story I had been working on for more than a year.”
The American Heritage Dictionary defines “sabotage” as “Treacherous action to defeat or hinder a cause or an endeavor; deliberate subversion.”
I’d say he was accusing PAD of deliberate negative intent.
“Clearly since PAD hasn’t really offered up anything to support his take…”
Because, y’know, logic doesn’t count…
PAD
Uh, dude, we can prove that the party of the first part has persisted in making an accusation you yourself claim he cannot back, while refusing to take veryfying questions on it. Where is your concrete proof, as opposed to personal bias, that the witnesses are equal in credibility?
1 At one point he denies he ever said PAD handed out the previews out of any negative intent.
****
I think he was saying that in that thread, and the other comment was made at that time.
However, it is a moot point really, as he pretty much implied it.
PAD –
I called him a Lesbian?
That might be a step up for Byrne.
Of course, the fact that he doesn’t like being called a liar apparently doesn’t stop him from dredging stuff up from 20 years ago just to piss on you.
Because maybe if he didn’t make such comments to begin with, people wouldn’t call him out when he spreads his bûllšhìŧ. Go fig.
Trevor Krysak –
They all seem to miss the point of what I was asking.
Well, when you find that common sense you’re missing, please let us know.
Well I did some digging…and I found proof!
Proof that PAD is indeed, a dirty stinking liar!
tsk, tsk, tsk.
A comic book spoiler..and a ganster too apparantly!
Ok..the link to the proof didn’t post….
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=padproofkl7.jpg
I see the PAD-spiracy is in full effect, as it shrank my proof, so the incriminating evidence couldn’t be made out…
so I’ll try it again, because if a bad joke isn’t worth running into the ground, it wasn’t worth posting in the first place:)
http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=padproofrt1.jpg
(This one is right…seriously)
Bill Mulligan,
Amongst other things:
Godzilla, Green Slime, other slock monster films, Shogun Warriors, Rom, Micronaughts, really bad 60’s & 70’s songs about slock monsters AND pro wrestling!
I knew there was a reason that I often find your posts to be of the highest order of intelligence and taste.
Landry, I think you comported yourself professionally, courteously, and logically. The fact that you had to repeat certain questions three and four times must have been frustrating, but you kept your cool and made your points effectively.
I remain puzzled as to why said questions went unanswered…and irritated that several people at the JBF keep insisting that the questions HAVE been answered. They haven’t been, by anyone.
If that quote about deleting any future inquiries from the Denny O’Neil forum is for real, I find that the most troubling development in this whole discussion.
Scavenger,
Yeah, talking about Angle. Some more details popped up in the last 24 hours. Hopefully, like Bill said, he can come back one day in another role.
I remain puzzled as to why said questions went unanswered…and irritated that several people at the JBF keep insisting that the questions HAVE been answered. They haven’t been, by anyone.
***
It’s an old, old, old tactic. Byrne’s debating style is heavy on sweeping statements and next to nil on supporting data or sourcing. So, if Byrne says the sky is green, then the sky is green… he said it, it’s true. It’s up to the contrary position to supply supporting data and source everything… and have their position picked apart with irrelevancies.
We’re talking about a man who so distrusts the media, that he has joked that he sometimes doubts the Vietnam War ever happened… so absolutely everything you source, from any source, that contradicts what Byrne “knows” is true, is held suspect. I’ve even seen him discount what Lee (because of his poor memory) and Kirby (for later health problems) have said about their own work, because he doesn’t jibe with what he believes.
For whatever reason, a lot of folks don’t see it. Maybe they lack the ability to reason logically or they’re blinded by their admiration for the man or they’re in total denial that their art hero is a raving jáçkášš… but there’s no shortage of people there willing to say what a fair and reasonable man he is.
Poor Denny must be sitting in a dark corner someplace shaking his very alive head, muttering, “What in good golly F*CK did I do in another life to deserve this?!?”
Something that has been bothering me about Byrne’s version of the story. He has created this whole elaborate backstory to explain why Denny O’Neil is completely blameless and Peter David is solely and maliciously to blame for ruining Byrne’s ending. He said it was standard practice for marketing to take whatever they wanted and editors had to fight to protect their art.
If this was routine for marketing to steal art and blow endings in the name of sales, why haven’t we heard of this happening more often?
To be honest, I can’t recall this ever happening, other than the story Byrne tells. Can anyone else name a time when Marvel did this.
Wow, The image of PAD with a tommy gun scares the hëll out of me!
JAC
sorry for the double post, my mouse is developing a clickly problem
JAC
For all you “youngsters” who don’t understand how Peter can remember a 20 year old temper tantrum… All I can say is, “You haven’t had it happen to you yet.”
It’s quite clear from Peter’s command of the medium (and his previous BID columns, etc.) how much he loves comics and wanted to be a part of the fun.
To be in a SALES job– with his first comics writing a year away (and, of course, NOT knowing at the time if his first comics writing would EVER be published) Peter HAD to be completely upset by John’s outrageous behavior… and, in turn, worried for his job (and even his comics writing future).
What Peter’s NOT telling you (and I bet this is true)– he remembers the incident in such detail that I bet he can even tell you what Byrne was wearing when it happened.
THAT’S how devastating a memory like that can be.
Unfortunately, if you haven’t had a memory like that yet– you will. Life’s a peach.
Godzilla, Green Slime, other slock monster films, Shogun Warriors, Rom, Micronaughts, really bad 60’s & 70’s songs about slock monsters AND pro wrestling!
I knew there was a reason that I often find your posts to be of the highest order of intelligence and taste.
Well here’s great news–they just released a wonderful print of THE FLESH EATERS on DVD. This is the one with Martin Kosleck as a Nazi scientist using flesh eating microbes to eat flesh. Ergo the title, THE FLESH EATERS. Although it’s probably been more than 30 years since I saw it I am happy to report that much flesh is eaten and for a movie made in 1964 the gore content is actually pretty high and creatively done. The scene where the beatnik unwittingly drinks the aforementioned flesh eating flesh eaters gave me the freaking willies when I was a kid.
All right, because so many have asked I will reveal what I was told in confidence, by a marvel employ who was bunking in the hotel room next to Peter David the day before the incident in question. I cannot reveal his name but we will call him X-throat. Pad was apparently going over the Xerox pages that he stole, mission impossible like form the editorial department. Speaking loudly to himself, alone in the hotel room PAD said, “Yes with these I can finally get Byrne. No one can stop me. It will be the perfect crime, and in 22 years when the Internet is in full swing, he’ll still be bìŧçhìņg about it! So this is what Dr. Doom feels like…. wait that’s it I’ll launch Byrnes house into outer space. At this point there was a crash, and X-throat rushed to see what happened. He found pad passed out on the bed amidst the Xerox’s and several little kahlua bottles from the mini bar. He backed out slowly figuring Pads rant was just the drunken ramblings of a madman. X-throat is haunted knowing that he could have stopped the horror of the following day if he had only taken the Xerox’s. He hasn’t been able to read an issue of Alpha Flight (when it’s being published anyway) in over 20 years. I hope this sheds some light on the subject.
JAC
Hey guys,
Some of you might recognize my name, I’ve been sort of floating around on the message boards since the AOL days back in the late 90’s.
I actually spend some time on Byrne’s board, and I’m a fan of PAD as well. I figure that since I was only 4 at the time, and I have no access to any of the players involved, I can’t really gauge the real story, although I sort of feel that the way Byrne is acting over on the board has been detrimental toward his stance. He’s been very defensive and sniping, and he seems very disinterested in taking the high ground and genuinely answering questions to further prove his side of the story.
I commented about it in the thread in question, basically saying that the snipers have been juvenile, that there should apparently be a rule that people aren’t allowed to find the Byrne Board through PAD’s site, and so on, because of the hostile reaction directed toward the fellow who’s been posting over there. I also said I’d take the high road and not post or read the topic anymore myself, only to go back five minutes later to make an edit and find that it had been deleted.
So, I posted a slighly less inflammatory version of the same thing, and Byrne said something about how it was deleted because I misrepresented some facts, or something, I dunno. I haven’t been back there ever since.
Anyway, the whole thing is weird and absurd. People need to grow up. I’m just saying.
All this is very, very simple.
Off the top of my mind:
*) Byrne claimed Tom Palmer told him that Neal Adams was doing breakdowns in his Avengers run. Adams himself asked Palmer about this and he said he never said such thing to Byrne.
*) Byrne said Mark Waid once asked “can we have the real Superman back?” in a con. Waid said he never did that.
*) Byrne said he once met Erik Larsen’s ‘background man’. Erik Larsen has repeteadly said he has never had one.
*) Byrne once said Kirby’s Captain America sold 17,000 copies. Statements of Ownership say otherwise.
*) Byrne says he was asked to be a founding member of Image by Jim Lee. Lee said that while he contacted Byrne, he never asked him to be a founding member.
Is it possible that Neal Adams, Tom Palmer, Mark Waid, Erik larsen, Marve’s Statement of Ownership and Jim Lee are lying and/or wrong? Yes.
But it’s not likely.
Let’s just say that Byrne’s credibility is…dubious.
Just heard a bummer; Joseph Stefano died. He was 84 so it’s no shocker but still. Outer Limits still holds up all these years later and it’s one of the few chances to see a Harlan Ellison story treated right.
PAD, the best thing you can do is to keep producing quality comics that entertain comic audiences globally.
Byrne is really a nobody these days, neither of the big two wants him.
You’re arguing with a nobody.
“John Byrne said:
“David is quick to unleash the L-word.”
I called him a Lesbian?
PAD”
On behalf of myself and lesbians everywhere, I would ask that you stop insulting lesbians like that :-P.
Now that that is out of the way, can we get mad at PAD for real reasons — like the last page of X-Factor #10?!?
The Flesh Eaters?
(Begins drooling like Homer Simpson.)
That’s almost, but not quite, as cool as having all the Blind Dead films released last Christmas in that nifty coffin/box set and hearing that the one that didn’t make the set is coming out soon.
Some on the Byrne board are questioning PAD’s memory. I already know Byrne distorts and changes things that only happened a few months ago. Let’s see if PAD has a better memory.
This is something that happened around the time of the Alpha Flight incident.
I was working at one of Capitol City’s distribution hubs. It was in Elk Grove Village, IL. While unloading the weekly shipment of comics, we found we received an extra box of Marvel comics. Just for fun we sent it back to Marvel after writing something on the box. About a week later, we received a call from a slightly irritated Peter David.
PAD, I would be surprised if you remember but do you recall what we wrote on that box?
“PAD, I would be surprised if you remember but do you recall what we wrote on that box?”
I dunno. Something about claiming they were damaged because of eye tracks?
PAD
No, we wrote “Attn: Stan Lee!”
At the time you didn’t think that was funny at all.
The thing that I don’t understand is: about a week ago I read PAD berating someone who had a difference of opinion. He questioned why this person would hang out at sites where people don’t have the same opinion and told him to get lost and not to let the door hit him in the ášš (This person I believe responded that he liked to hear what the other side has to say. He’s not afraid of differing opinions as PAD seems to be). It’s a little hypocritical for PAD to go lurking on the Byrne site where obviously people, especially Mr. Byrne are going to have a differing opinion and then proceed to get his sizeable panties in a wad. If he takes his own advice he wouldn’t be over there spying anyway. Right PADdy?
Byrne said he once met Erik Larsen’s ‘background man’. Erik Larsen has repeteadly said he has never had one.
****
In one of his recent columns, I believe Larsen now says the person who talked to Byrne must have been a backgroiund man on the Savage Dragon cartoon
“And then it dawned on me.
Savage Dragon was a cartoon. This guy must have drawn backgrounds for the Savage Dragon cartoon and when he said that he drew backgrounds for the Savage Dragon, this grizzled pro assumed that that meant the Savage Dragon comic book. Mystery solved. “
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=ofo&article=2546