While out in San Diego, Ariel and I took in “My Super Ex-Girlfriend.” I have to admit going in, I’m a sucker for Uma Thurman and Eddie Izzard. So I was predisposed to enjoy it, plus we had a good audience, plus my leg was hurting so I was doped up on Vicodin and probably would have applauded a Bush press conference. Thus I have to cop to the fact that I liked it, or at least I think I did.
But–and I’m probably going to do a more detailed “But I Digress” on this later–I find it interesting that fans deplored the scene in “Superman Returns” wherein our hero uses his X-ray vision and superhearing to spy on Lois and her family. “He’s stalking her” was the cry, and that was universally seen as A Very Bad Thing. But Thurman’s G-Girl not only stalks the boyfriend who dumps her because she’s a controlling, needy flake. She harasses him, destroys his property, and dámņëd near kills him. And it’s a comedy. It occurred to me that if you flipped the genders–if it was a girlfriend being harassed by an unrelentingly angry super boyfriend–there is absolutely no way it’s a comedy. It’s…I dunno…a thriller. A horror film. Anything except a comedy, because pìššëd øff girlfriend goes after guy = comedy, unless, y’know, the ex is Glenn Close. But if it’s pìššëd øff boyfriend going after girl, the threat aspect will completely overwhelm whatever comedy you’re going for.
You can do a comedy with a girl going after a guy (Super-Ex). You can do a comedy about a group of girls going after a guy (John Tucker Must Die). You can even do a comedy about a girl going after another girl or group of girls (Bad Girls). But a guy going after a girl who done him wrong? *Is* there a comedy–at least a successful one–ever made on that theme?
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Menshevik, you certainly have a point. But Rogue’s powers are unique; there is no other X-Man denied the pleasure of physical intimacy with another human being. No lovemaking, no kissing, no hand-holding without gloves. I don’t think even the Beast suffers to the degree that Rogue does. It makes sense that she would be the one to succumb to the temptation of achieving a normal life, not because she’s a woman, but because her mutation causes her to suffer so.
The fact that Rogue is female is something the movies inherited from the comics. I would be willing to bet that they wanted to capitalize on the base of fans who read and love the comics, so they wanted to try to stay faithful to the comics in certain respects (not all respects, but some). So I don’t think there’s any sexist subtext there.
On the other hand, “My Super Ex-Girlfriend,” another movie I haven’t seen, isn’t based on a comic-book as far as I know.
Now, granted, I could go and buy X3 on DVD and say, “Ðámņ! Menshevik was right! How sexist!”
But somehow I suspect, from what I know of the Rogue character as established in the “X-Men” and “X2” movies, and from what I’ve heard about “X3,” I’m betting my initial opinion will remain intact.
Bill Mulligan: “I was so disgusted with myself for mixing up Basic Instinct and Fatal Attraction that I went back to sleep for a few hours.”
I’m so disgusted with my performance at work today that I’d like to do the same. My manager told me, however, that if I do that I should also pick up a paper and read the help wanted section.
Bill Mulligan: “In my defense, I have a cold and I just randomly take pills from the medicine cabinet to make it go away or, at least, enter a new reality.”
And that differs from a normal day for you… how?
Bill Myers: “And it makes sense now, since Instinct is quite skippable while Attraction is a well made little thriller.”
Never saw “Fatal Attraction.” Movies just don’t excite me. Hëll, my first exposure to “Star Wars” was the comic-book adaptation, and on some levels I enjoy the adaptation more than the movie.
I guess I’m just weird.
Jason –
Rogue may have had a plausible reason to choose to get rid of her powers, but her choice came under a lot of criticism from quite a few fans and, as I mentioned, in the comics she has consistently chosen to retain her powers in spite of the drawbacks. So no, the Cure was not her only choice (I say this as someone who has defended movie Rogue’s decision against other fans’ attacks). Also, in the context of the movie, she clearly was not the only person to opt for the Cure, but she was the only prominent character (i.e. character who actually had lines to say) to go through with it, so the question remains why they did not also “give voice” to one of the others (who could easily have been male).
Also, I have to say it is a bit strange how some people seem to argue as if the case of Rogue in X3 was my only example. In the superhero films of this year (X3, the Superman one and “My Super Ex-Girlfriend”) we have, if I count conrrectly, five prominent superheroines (Storm, Jean Grey, Kitty Pryde, Rogue, and G-Girl). Isn’t it a bit much to be a coincidence that three of these five are unable to handle their powers, while this does not applay to any of the more numerous prominent male superheroes (Superman, Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus, Angel, Iceman, Professor X, and Beast)? They say “once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, three times it’s a pattern” or somesuch (I actually know the saying from “Goldfinger”, where it ends: “three times is enemy action”).
“Superman 3”, by the way, is no counter-example. Here Superman was not failing to handle his powers, but he was acting under the external influence of a mind-altering substance (“funky kryptonite”) applied against his will, he lost not against himself but against an outside force. That is simply not comparable to the case of G-Girl, of Jean the Phoenix in X3 or even to Rogue in X3. The Tick is also not really a counter-example. I posed my questions in the context of superhero movies, in part because we there have a more easily surveyable sampling. So, short answer: We’ll talk again when they do a major Tick movie. Long answer: If we take the Tick into account, we’ll have to look at all comic-book superheroes (or all cartoon-series superheroes) to see whether the Tick is representative of a larger trend or merely an exception that proves the rule (after all, it could turn out to be a satire that points out the ridiculousness of the rules and conventions of the superhero genre by breaking them).
Bill Myers –
re. a possible sexist subtext to the X-Men movies, consider some of the alterations made to the characters:
Storm – a bit wishy-washy in the first two, if she had a defining mark it was her anger (not usually one of her defining marks in the comics), which was contrasted with Kurt’s seemingly more mature and wiser attitude to anti-mutant intolerance in X2.
Rogue – a rather different and all in all weaker character than the one we know from the comics. There, even in the darkest times of the 1990s she did not try and get rid of her powers.
Jean Grey – in the comics, the tragedy of the Phoenix is largely caused by the influence of an outside agency (the Phoenix Force). In the movie, she was born with her powers (which are linked to her emotionality) yet was unable to control them without extensive mind-tampering by Professor X (the character with the most tight grip on his emotions and, by some freakish coincidence, a male).
Of course, you could say that some of what could be seen as a sexist subtext was already present in the comics. It is worth noting that at the time Phoenix was the only cosmically powered female in the Marvel Universe, but her story had to end in tragedy (because Jim Shooter so ordained), while e.g. no one asked for the Silver Surfer to be punished and killed off for his deeds as Galactus’ herald (which presumably actually resulted in even more deaths than those caused by Dark Phoenix).
I don’t know that this qualifies as a “bad” first-date movie — among other things, the date in question was foolish enough to marry me a few years later, so it couldn’t be that bad — but the first Robocop movie strikes me as, at least, a very odd choice.
And as for “The Cook, The Thief, and the Etcetera” … saw it once, in grad school. It and “Blue Velvet” are the two films I’ve seen that, to this day, I can’t decide whether I think are masterpieces or drivel. They’re both right on that edge.
TWL
“If you liked Cook/Wife/Thief/Lover try The Pillow Book by the same director.”
Yeah, I love that movie, too. Peter Greenaway is one of the few true geniuses working in film today. A Zed and Two Noughts is my other favorite movie of his.
“The Tick is also not really a counter-example.”
Why not? Because it was an unsuccessful TV show and while My Super Ex-Girlfriend was an unsuccessful movie? That’s extremely arbitrary. They’re both comedies, they’re both superheroes, they were both viewed and judged by mainstream America. If you can’t see that they’re pretty much the same thing, then I can draw the same parallels with the movie Mystery Men as well.
Superman 3 isn’t a real counter example because of the circumstances, but circumstances don’t matter with the women?
You also talk about the comics having a sexist pretext, yet Beast has recently gone through the exact same thing as Rogue. His teammates basically had to tie him down to keep him from going after a cure.
Menshevik, you have a very valid point that’s worth exploring. However, you’re doing it in a very one sided manner. It makes the conversation very unproductive.
“It and “Blue Velvet” are the two films I’ve seen that, to this day, I can’t decide whether I think are masterpieces or drivel.”
Yeah, I’m with you on Blue Velvet. I loved it when I saw it in high school, but then I watched it again a few years ago and thought it was lame. So then I watched it a third time, and now I’m not sure what I think of it.
(Incidentally, though, David Lynch is also one of the few true geniuses working in film today).
I guess I’m just weird.
Yes. Yes you are. On the other hand, you are also quite tall, so you have that going for you.
Also, you have a great girlfriend so you must have the ability to cloud minds and/or take incriminating photographs.
I probably don’t love Blue Velvet as much as I once did but keep in mind that I once loved it so much I once did the Dean Stockwell “In Dreams” routine at a party. And I hadn’t even been drinking.
Yeah, but with all the stuff you’d been inhaling a la Dennis Hopper right beforehand, the fact that you hadn’t been drinking really didn’t matter all that much…
TWL
I think equality of sexes is a fact. Specially when in this country a woman can get away with infidelity and at the same time neglect her maternal responsibilities, claim in court or mediation that she is a fit parent and that she wants 50% residence of the child and walk away with alimony and a hefty child support check while the child is living 90% of the time with the wronged ex-husband who is covering all the child’s expenses. The woman goes on living with the lover, collecting from the ex-husband and the father has to watch his daughter go from time to time to the mother’s and mother’s lover house because infidelity is not grounds for loosing parental rights, is not even grounds for divorce in many states. I know cases like these and many good faithful fathers victimized this way that the legal system is so pro-women divorce turns into a nightmare for them and justice is almost blind.
Tim, I once read that Lynch thought Hopper’s character was only breathing oxygen…which I guess means that Lynch is not much of a drug user. Which is a very good idea on his part because I can only imagine what a bad trip would be like to David Lynch.
Superdad…one gets the feeling you may be going through a bad time. Whatever the accuracy of your impression of the justice system vis a vis divorce, I wish you well. Keep on keeping on, my brother.
In the War of the Roses, they kind of beat up on each other abit, but the guy acts more like a jerk, whereas the woman beating on the man scenes are “funny” (biting him in his privates, punching him in the face, running over him with her car, knocking him down the stairs).
Jason –
Yes. The Tick isn’t a movie, therefore it can’t be a correct answer to the question
“Are there movies where we see men acting that way?”
An additional reason would be because in a long comics and cartoon series, you simply have more time and space. How often do you actually see the Tick go on a rampage like G-Girl or Dark Phoenix? I saw an episode or two of The Tick and did not notice anything out of the ordinary, so I have to wonder how much the theme was actually developed, it was not as overriding as it was in the case of the three superheroines in X3 and “My Super Ex-Girlfriend”.
I did not say circumstances did not matter with women. It is that the circumstances were totally different. To think up a hypothetical analogy: Suppose I had said: Movies make out women to be bad drivers, giving as examples a number where women are shown causing car accidents. And then you had said: no, they also show males involved in accidents, but the example you gave would be of a collision caused by another person deliberately ramming the man’s car or of lightning or a falling tree striking it.
Re. the Beast: I did not claim that all comic stories are sexist, my point re. the Dark Phoenix was that not all sexist elements in superhero movies are additions made by the creators of the movies.
Don’t know if “Mystery Men” is a good example of a male superhero going nuts, unfortunately I don’t remember all that much about it. On the whole I’d have to say that considering how male superheroes clearly outnumber female ones in superhero movies, it should statistically be a lot more easier to come up with examples of male superheroes unable to handle their powers.
Hey, another great date movie: HARD CANDY, from earlier this year.
I guess you miss a CLASSIC MASTERPIECE movie called mr Wrong 🙂
For shame..should of won an oscar
Always thought Uma was painted as an INSANE phyco. So was her X friend. He was a Super villan after all but all of them painted as pretty darn likeble people. It was meant to be silly
Superman was a Drama..so I GUESS people less Flexble. It also sometime people expect PERFECTION from Superman. Which make him hard to do.
That scene in SUPERMAN RETURNS, it did have a lot of people up in arms, but I honestly don’t see anything wrong with it. It seemed like a perfectly natural thing to do, I thought it worked.
Double standards are rampant in the media, more’s the pity. However, the movie Hitch kinda softened the idea through “strategic dating”, which was much like stalking, but having a mediator through which the guys were keeping tabs on their lass of choice.
For stalking, how about The Graduate? Dustin Hoffman gets dumped by Katherine Ross, gets told to stay away from her, learns she’s going to marry someone else, then chases her down and drags her away from the wedding.
A lot of romantic behaviour in movies would be insane or creepy in real life.