People who are against illegal immigrants just wish they would go away.
So today…they went away.
Ariel was impressed by how much less crowded her school bus was, how it was easier to get around in the hallways, and how there weren’t kids hanging out on the front lawn of the school smoking, fighting or getting into trouble.
So this proved…what, exactly?
PAD
• 
I am not against immigration, in fact my 2 grandfathers came here from Canada and Sweeden. My 2 grandmothers could trace their existance in the states back to 1700’s. However my forefathers entered the country legally. Both grandfathers applied for immigration and were granted passage and then citizenship. They obeyed the law. No one snuck over the border, no one worked without paying taxes, no one broke the law.
That is all I want, obey the law, I’m expected to obey the law, pay my taxes and as a business owner cross the Ts and dot the Is on all of my subcontractors. And I do and I expect other businesses to do the same. It’s not a case where these companies can’t find a citizen to do the job, they can’t find a citizen to do the job for below legal pay rates!
I worked at a restaurant in college. We had a learning disability dish washer. Nicest guy and most eager person you could ever work with. He did his job impeccably without complaint. The owner was being paid a tax break to employee the guy. Well one day he lost his job a legal immigrant employeed there one day showed up with his 2 cousins, no green cards, no nothing, but they were willing to work under the table and even with the tax breaks it was cheaper to hire these two illegals than to continue employing the guy who wanted to work.
From there it was down hill the two were deported but the owner had learned there were plenty out there and when one vanished suddenly another one was there to replace him. When I stormed off the job I was replaced by one. This went on for years and by the time the place went out of business the wait staff couldn’t even communicate with the back of the store staff.
These employeers need to be fined and fined heavily. If suddenly they were paying in fines as much as they would a citizen for every fine then there would be no reason to hire an illegal.
Because it seems to me that on some core issues, you and I agree.
Yes, this is true. But I don’t think there’s a straw man involved in my argument.
But, again, he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.
What history are we repeating, exactly?
Nothing in US history really applies directly to this situation with illegals.
The only repeating history I see here is the notion of amnesty for illegals: whether Reagan wanted it or not 20 years ago, an increase in the flow of illegals is what happened after the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.
And if the right steps aren’t taken by our government now, whether through inaction or the wrong action, that flow will increase yet again.
But given that many of them just want a better life, I find it hard to join you in your chest-thumping.
I can understand that.
I just happen to think that it’s going to take chest-thumping to get anything useful accomplished at this point. If not for Arizona and New Mexico, among others, moving forward on their own initiatives to help stem the tide of illegals, the federal government would’ve continue to ignore the problem.
Blah blah immigrant blah blah illegal. It’s all horseshit. Illegal workers come here because there’s people who will employ them, just as drug mules carry heroin across the border because there’s a market for it. If anyone seriously wanted to ‘fix’ this ‘problem’ they’d do what anyone with the most marginal understanding of capitalism and markets realizes is ONLY way you can attack this kind of thing: stop the demand so the supply will go away on its own.
‘Illegal workers’ are a business regulation enforcement problem, not a border problem. You could wall the entire US and launch anti-Mexican satellites that laser them from orbit and the jobs would just move over to some other marginalized group like teenagers, under-aged workers or the mentally-ill. Anyone who an employer willing to flout the law by not doing SSI contributions, tax withholding and other W-4 types of paperwork can convince to work under the table.
But nobody’s interested in shouldering the real costs that would pass on to all of us so the pols let people who should know better scream at each other over the placement of the deck chairs.
I agree completely with everyone here who said the corporations/employers who hire illegal immigrants should be fined. I also happen to think that something should be done about outsourcing, but anyway…
I wonder how likely it is that the current administration would actually take such steps
Don wrote: “Anyone who an employer willing to flout the law by not doing SSI contributions, tax withholding and other W-4 types of paperwork can convince to work under the table.”
There are plenty of businesses following the requirements you list that still have many illegal aliens working for them. If a worker presents a business with a seemingly valid Social Security Card, the business hires the person and fills out the required tax forms.
However, fake Social Security cards are rampant in this country. It’s so bad that people I know who hire a lot of seasonal workers are always talking about strange SSN inconsistencies that keep popping up, including at least one instance when two workers at a business with totally different names had the same Social Security number.
Most smaller businesses don’t have the budget or just aren’t staffed to investigate Social Security Card fraud FOR the government, and until there is a Social Security Card designed that is difficult to counterfeit and easy to verify as authentic, the problem isn’t going to go away.
I’m as liberal as gets most of the time. This one though, I think I agree, is not about right-or left wing. I mean, there have to be some type of rules and laws in place for immigration, right? Doesn’t everyone agree on that? Then why are these the only laws that are apparently okay to break? That somehow ‘should not really be enforced’? When’s the last time anyone saw a crowd of tax-dodgers or credit card fraud-committers in the streets, protesting for their rights? Illegal is illegal.
Seriously, why are so many people on both sides of this divide in the US acting like there is no difference between legal and illegal immigrants anymore? “Anti-immigrant laws”, “Immigrants want their rights”. No…ILLEGAL immigrants! Isn’t that a vital difference? And yes, of course the companies that employ these people for under minimum wage are criminals too, and yes of course they should be cracked down on. That doesn’t change anything about the points about the illegal immigrants. If you break the law, you’re a criminal, even if someone else breaks the law too. That’s how it works.
That is all I want, obey the law, I’m expected to obey the law, pay my taxes and as a business owner cross the Ts and dot the Is on all of my subcontractors. And I do and I expect other businesses to do the same.
Well said. Hëll, *I’m* an immigrant. I’m originally from Holland. I’ve been living in LA for 4 years now. And yes, I did it legally. Or rather, am still doing it legally. The latest batch of forms went out last week. that’s 5 years and going. And it went well even. So yes, it’s hard, a lot of work and hassle and traveling and money.(And I wasn’t rich to begin with either) But I think it’s only normal that when I come to a different country, and I ask it to accept me as one of its residents, that I OBEY THE LAWS! And yes, I speak english. If I’d moved to Russia, I’d have learned russian. That’s not only polite to the country that you move to, it’s smart for you. There is no excuse for living in a country for 20 years (as some do) and still barely speak it’s language.
So no, I’m not ‘anti-immigrant’. I do however find it odd that you can say apparently “Hey, I want better economic opportunities, so I’ll enter your country illegally. My first act here, is a criminal one. Then I’ll stay here illegally, work illegally, mostly not pay my taxes, obviously showing that I don’t care about your laws, and place myself outside of your system wherever it suits me…..Oh, and now I’m marching in the streets because I want that same system to give me my RIGHTS. And I want what the legal immigrants have, that I didn’t bother to try and get, except I want it handed to me on a silver platter. And everything illegal I’ve done must be forgotten. I demand it. Or else!”
Really, what am I missing about this? How on earth can that be considered right and just on any level?
We need to get away from the terminology they have tried to foist on this issue. We are not speaking about illegal immigrants, but illegal aliens. When we take away the word control the situation takes on a new light. They are illegal aliens, not immigrants, not undocumented immigrants, but illegal aliens.
Posted by Timewalker at May 2, 2006 12:30 PM
I’d like to know how many posters are Native North Americans. How many of your families actually originated in North America?
Oooh Me! Anyway, the way to address the problem with illegal immigration is to take away the temptation … If we would actually attack the corporations that are hiring them, for slave wages that seem like a fortune to them,
Now there’s a point I can agree with. How asinine is it to arrest people working illegally but not those that hire illegally? How can people justify going after the poor immigrant worker stirring hog feces in a waste lagoon, but not arrest the billionaire businessman who owns the string of hog farms?
It’s the same as W Bush saying he’s making every effort to weed out the mom-and-pop gas station owners who are engaging in price gouging, but he won’t even entertain the possibility of wrongdoing with oil corporations who are experiencing record profits. It boggles the mind.
You’re right, you can’t arrest one without charging the other.
They are illegal aliens, not immigrants, not undocumented immigrants, but illegal aliens.
Superman is an illegal alien.
E.T. is an illegal alien.
Norrin Radd is an illegal alien.
Keith Richards is an alien who has performed illegal acts in many countries.
Latinos in America without visas are undocuments immigrants. They have immigrated to another country without the proper documentation.
Don’t try to dehumanize them by engaging in word play. You’re better than that, kind sir.
The question of the illegality of immigration is hiding the real questions:
1) Obviously there are more people wanting to emigrate froom South America than there are green cards offered. This is a question of policy. During the great waves of immigration in the 19th and early 20th centuries there was also many people wanting to emigrate. They were able to do so legally until a certain point in time, when the policy changed (I’m not sure when countries actually started asking for visas. Passports and visas are relatively modern). In the same time period the US did curtail the immigration from China and Japan.
2) Are there economic incentives to prefer illegal over legal immigrants, or is it that there are incentives to use immigrants as opposed to non immigrants?
3) Is this a cultural problem? Is it a problem of the ability of american culture to assimilate immigrants?
4) There is also the humanitarian issue — poor people, refugees coming to the US to find a better life.
5) The relevant historical fact is that the US was built by immigrants who came to the US to improve the life or to escape persecution The issue of the Indians is irreelevant, that was an issue of conquest not immigration. It is only relevant in so far that the masses of immigrants made the conquest easier. The immigrants from Europe or China did not care whether they were coming legally or illegaly. The first generation after their arrival was characterized by poverty, friction and cultural differences. Afterwards things seem to have turned out well. Is there a difference between that period and now? and if so what is it, and how things should be handled?
6) The whole issues of immigration, outsourcing, globalisation, world poverty, global-warming, drug smuggling, multi-culturalism, and terrorism are global issues that affect the whole world on an economic and cultural level that need to be addressed.
(It seems to me that no single country can legalize drugs without drawing crime to it. But globally it might be better to legalize drugs.)
Actually, I think Superman was granted a special world citizenship many years ago. 😛
As for terminology, I’m goint to stick with illegal immigrants, because these are people who are immigrated to this country illegally.
Simple enough.
And I forgot the question of security. Is immigration or illegal immigration actually threatening america in any way/ And if so how to address the threat? I’m not trying to be ironic. Sometimes there are real threats, sometimes there are threats that are just part of political rhetoric. Real threats should be distinguished from manufactured threats and treated seriously.
Overworm –
Don’t try to dehumanize them by engaging in word play.
Uhoh, it’s the PC Police.
“Undocumented workers” is nothing more than a phrase that came about in the last few years from those people trying to protect illegal aliens.
Call it like it is: they’re here illegally, thus they are illegal aliens.
In a similar vein, can we start calling companies that knowlingly hire illegal immigrants illegal companies?
Regarding security: I’d say anything that relates to the security of our borders could have a potential our risks of suffering another major terrorist attack. How serious that issue is, though, I’m not sure. As others have noted, the 9/11 hijackers entered the US legally and the one time we know of that a terrorist did try to sneak in with an explosive device, he came in through Canada and was caught.
Primarily, though, I think our major issue with illegal immigration is economics: Are they taking jobs away from Americans or doing work no one else wants? Are they a net gain to our economy or a net drain?
That sort of thing.
I’m not trying to protect them, just trying to respect them.
What’s wrong with “illegal immigrants”. Being an immigrant does not indicate one necessarily has a visa. At least not in any dictionary I’ve seen. It simply means one who has left one country for another, usually to take up residence. By all logical accounts, that word fits this use perfectly.
On the other hand, alien means, “different to the point of being incompatible.” Using the word alien when the term immigrant is obviously a much better fit indicates someone has an ulterior motive. Or maybe one simply doesn’t have a full grasp of the two definitions. Which is it?
Illegal immigrant? That works. Undocumented immigrant? That works. Alien? Not a proper use of the term.
immigrants is better than aliens, since is addresses the fact that they came and not only that they are foreign. Illegal is better than undocumented since we are talking about law not about a clerical error.
Posted by: Den at May 2, 2006 02:00 PM
Actually, I think Superman was granted a special world citizenship many years ago. 😛
Well, even if he wasn’t, good luck trying to deport him without a healthy dose of kryptonite.
Even if you have kryptonite, watch out. Superman is bad-ášš.
Overworm –
Alien? Not a proper use of the term.
alien
adj:
Owing political allegiance to another country or government
noun:
An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country. Also called noncitizen.
Heh. “Noncitizen”, more of that PC Police there.
Anyways, ‘alien’ seems pretty appropriate to me. And since they are here illegally, they are “illegal aliens”.
“Owing political allegiance to another country or government”
This seems to imply that the problem with them is that they don’t hold alligiance to the Us but to another (enemy?) country. Is that really the problem?
“An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country”
In the US any person born on US soil is a citizen. Other countries have unnaturalized residents who were born in the host country. Some legal immigrants living in the Us do not apply for citizenship. The term immigrant is better to address the fact the active fact of coming to the US.
Craig, how do you know if they “owe” or feel a political allegiance to another country? You don’t. The fact that many undocumented immigrants spend their entire life savings and/or risk their lives to get to America suggests their country of origin let them down. That suggests they would feel less of a political allegiance to that country. I know of many Latino immigrants who send money home to support their families. I don’t know of any who send money back to the government of their country of origin.
Still, if it makes you feel better to utilize words that kind of sort of, you know, in a your-own kind of way, get your points across, that’s fine with me. Just don’t act surprised when someone doesn’t quite understand you.
Or if someone completely understands where you’re coming from.
heres something i dont get
a lot of the illeagal immigrants
say all they wanto do is work here
so they drive that point home by not working for a day?
that doesnt make sense to me
Your comments are all quite interesting. For what it’s worth, I actually ran across the border from Mexico illegally. I was undocumented for many years before I obtained permanent residency – which eventually allowed me to become a medical student at Harvard.
I just want to say – I’m not blind to the idea that immigration flow across a nation’s border has to be regulated somehow. The idea of a terrorist entering the States to destroy civilians is horrible to all of us. I cannot argue for open borders, as did many of my peers at the protests yesterday. But there is a range of solutions ranging from open borders to criminalization of illegal aliens.
What strikes me as particularly unrealistic is the argument that anyone could stop the flow of migrant workers from Mexico when it’s so clear that despite the politicians’ rants, so many facets of America work perfectly in order to accommodate us. There are jobs here and so many people willing to employ us (don’t ask, don’t tell). There are so many good people that welcome us and befriend us and marry us and are happy to work with us. We are allowed to fight for America (the majority of foreign nationals that have died in Iraq, fighting for the States, are from Mexico). Some of us will become doctors or lawyers. Sure, we take up some space in Ariel’s bus, but we might eventually help her somehow too. Some of us already have, buying her father’s fantastic work for over ten years.
But it’s the “illegal,” not the “immigrant” part that bothers so many of you, isn’t it? Sure your father was an immigrant, but he was legal. Sure, you’re from Mexico, but you came here legally. Fair enough. One problem with the first argument, though: I bet that the primary reason your ancestors were “legal” aliens was that historically, it has been much easier to migrate legally into the United States than it is now. Waitlists to get into the U.S. from Mexico can be 15-years long. There’s a lottery for immigrants to get into the States every year, except, of course, Mexicans are automatically excluded from this lottery. That was just on CNN. In fact, for *most* Mexican migrants (not all, as the above legal Mexican migrant shows), despite all the dangers and the negative aspects of the means of their arrival, being an illegal alien is the only realistic way to get a shot at a better way of life.
But it’s not our shot to a better way of life, you might be thinking. We have no inherent right for it. We’re from Mexico. We should stay there and…well, clean things up, y’know? Make it better.
Well, maybe some people are smart enough and have the right amount of connections and luck to make some kind of change in the Mexican government. Yet to see it. But look, let’s be realistic. Most people are not lucky enough to possess the insight and the means to do it. They just want to feed their families, for crying out loud, and you can either do so by changing the historically-corrupt government of one of the largest countries in the world, or you can pay a coyote $600-1000 to guide you into the States. You can keep your head down and work for a while. You can feed your family. Maybe if you’re lucky, you’ll find a way to become legal, then you’ll pay $1000 to the INS (the added cost for filing for residency if you arrived illegally) and pay back your adoptive land, in every way you can, for the opportunities it has granted you – and for the controversial means by which you arrived.
I have a question, though, and whoever thinks of him/herself as most objective in this argument, please answer it for me…in learning to discuss the fine points of the need for border control and the inescapable flow of Mexican migrants, is there a non-sensationalist, non-nativist source of policy and economics I could consult?
Got an error the first time I went to post this, so I don’t know if this’ll show up twice or not.
Craig, how do you know if they “owe” or feel a political allegiance to another country? You don’t.
The billions of dollars being sent back to Mexico from the US seems to tell me otherwise because, either way, that money tends to end up in the hands of the government they supposedly left behind.
The Mexican flags being waved around at these protests seem to tell me otherwise.
The fact that Cinco de Mayo celebrations tend to get as large as 4th of July celebrations here seem to tell me otherwise.
It may not be purely political, but there is an alliegence to Mexico there that far surpasses any such alliegence to the US.
Just don’t act surprised when someone doesn’t quite understand you.
I doubt that will be an issue.
People know what illegal aliens are, and, for the most part, I think the words ‘alien’ and ‘immigrant’ when it comes to discussing illegals really are interchangeable.
But don’t expect those of us who do understand to sit back and watch as you try and play PC-Cop becuase it’s supposed to make everybody feel better about the situation, because it doesn’t.
Waitlists to get into the U.S. from Mexico can be 15-years long.
And you have to wonder why that is, when the Mexican government does nothing to help the situation with people crossing the border at will.
But that doesn’t change the situation: it’s still illegal. It’s still not fair to anybody else who wants to come here from the rest of the world legally and has to wait in line and pay the proper fees and such.
Just because the US shares a border with Mexico doesn’t make it right.
Just because you think it’s merely about feeding your family doesn’t make it right.
Hëll, much of Africa is far worse off than Mexico ever has been, yet I don’t see you suggesting we build a bridge to Africa and let as many of them walk into the country that want to.
So, is it the ‘illegal’ part I have a problem with? Yes, and rightfully so, because when I go to New Zealand later this year, it will be done in a legal manner. If I ever move to another country, it will be done in a legal manner, so I don’t see why some think it’s so unreasonable to epxect the same of others, no matter who they are or where they’re from.
But it’s the “illegal,” not the “immigrant” part that bothers so many of you, isn’t it?
Absolutely. Like it or not, there has to be some regulation of the movement of people from one country to another.
That said, I agree that the waitlists and other obstacles you mentioned that limit legal immigration from Mexico and other Latin American countries need to be reformed. People want to come to this country and companies here want to hire them. And their native lands have clearly failed to create enough jobs to support their populations. So long as this economic and social reality exists, people will try to come here. Bush is at least acknowledging this reality with proposing a guestworker program, but the policy needs to treat all immigrants as potential citizens, not commodities to be shuttled back and forth across the border.
But I think a lot of companies that hire illegal immigrants aren’t going to be keen on any system that increases legal immigration because if legal immigrants displace the illegal ones in the job market, then the companies will have to start paying minimum wage and following worker safety regulations, etc.
“Craig, how do you know if they “owe” or feel a political allegiance to another country? You don’t.
The billions of dollars being sent back to Mexico from the US seems to tell me otherwise because, either way, that money tends to end up in the hands of the government they supposedly left behind.
The Mexican flags being waved around at these protests seem to tell me otherwise.
The fact that Cinco de Mayo celebrations tend to get as large as 4th of July celebrations here seem to tell me otherwise.
It may not be purely political, but there is an alliegence to Mexico there that far surpasses any such alliegence to the US.”
Generations of immigrants to the Us have sent money to their families, and had their St Patrick parades, and St Genero etc. When I was a kid in israel we didn’t money from my relatives but action figures.
I have to echo Micha’s statement: Sending money back to ones relatives in the “old country” is a longstanding practice of immigrants from just about every corner of the world. In fact, it was one of the primary reasons many families sent there sons to America.
And still is.
And from what I’ve observed, both St. Patrick’s Day and Cinco de Mayo have become excuses for people in this country who are of neither Irish nor Mexican heritage to get šhìŧfáçëd, so I wouldn’t use the size of either holiday celebration as a gauge of subversiveness.
Generations of immigrants to the Us have sent money to their families,
But never on this scale.
BILLIONS of dollars on an annual basis are involved here.
and had their St Patrick parades
I’m not sure St. Patrick’s Day has ever really been on the same level as Cinco de Mayo.
Most people now celebrate it as a special day to get drunk… which is funny, because they can get drunk every other day of the year if they want. And I don’t think that’s what St. Patrick was about, being a saint and all.
In a way, the meaning behind it has become as twisted from it’s origin (although in a different manner) as Christmas in many parts of the world and to be honest, I’m not sure why St. Patrick’s Day has the notority it has.
Although I suppose the fact that Cinco de Mayo actually has to do with the Mexican army beating the crap out of a small French army is enough to make many Americans cheer in ignorance just the same.
You know, here in Denver, they actually make an exception for Cinco de Mayo that they make for no other group, holiday, or whatever: ‘cruising’ is actually banned here. But they allow it on May 5th.
Now, if only they’d exempt the 4th of July from all the fireworks bans around here, I could get back to doing all the really cool stuff with firecrackers I could do when I was younger. *sigh*
Are they taking jobs away from Americans or doing work no one else wants?
That’s a good question. The answer may well be yes…but with the caveat that the reason the jobs are unacceptable to Americans is because hiring illegals has driven the wages down to an unacceptable level. Meat cutters once made a pretty good salery in Chicago but now get paid chump change. An argument could be made that without the cheap labor of illegals, the pay for unskilled labor would be forced to rise until it met the demands of the laborers.
Another argument I’ve heard that drives me nuts (haven’t heard it here but we are a smarter than average group); if we double the wages of the lettuce pickers it will double the price of lettuce. Uh, no, no it won’t. If Juan Valdez picks 100 head of lettuce an hour and gets paid $5 by the grower, it’s comes out to 5 cents per lettuce. Lettuce costs me $1.89, 5 whole cents of which went to Juan. If the grower had the decency to pay Juan $15 dollars an hour it would add a whopping 10 cents to my cost. So I’d pay $1.99, a far cry from doubling or tripling the price. This ain’t calculus.
And here are 2 more factors to chew on. Given affirmitive action and the fact that recent immigrants tend to be from what we consider to be minority groups, isn’t it possible that non-citizens are being given preferential treatment over citizens, at least in some situations?
And I know for a fact that skilled workers from other countries have to jump through freaking hoops to get to stay. I’ve known doctors who were treated like they were vectors for a new strain of tuberculosis when they tried to extend their temporary visas or whatever they had to do to keep working in a hospital. Good grief, anyone who comes here and earns a 6 figure slaery ought to get a free pass–his or her taxes will help to pay for the schooling and social services of many of those who came here illegally.
But ultimately I have to listen to what folks like MrPonceman say and take it to heart. I just can’t work up too much passion to punish people who are merely trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. The tragedy of the recent protests is that it has been a major turnoff to a lot of people who, like me, have a natural inclination to extend a helping hand to people in need. Marching around on May Day with signs and posters that essentially say “give us what we want…or else” ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at May 2, 2006 04:34 PM
Another argument I’ve heard that drives me nuts (haven’t heard it here but we are a smarter than average group); if we double the wages of the lettuce pickers it will double the price of lettuce.
Uhm, I kinda sorta made that argument. Oops.
I’m going to go hide now…
It proved that after decades of sitting on their butts and simply whining about every dámņ issue that comes along a group of people in this country in this country finally feels passionate enough to become activists. Funny how it’s foreign born Americans but, hey, I’m just glad to see some folks out on the street making themselves heard.
Well I didn’t mean you. I meant those OTHER guys. I LIKE you.
But don’t feel bad–I just read a columist who said the same thing, only about the price of gas. “If gas prices double so will the price of goods transported to market!”
Now HE’S an idiot!
Thanks for helping to bridge that gap and allow me to understand Mexico a little better.
You’re welcome Bill. The reason why I preffer to stay away is because I understand it must be frustrating for everyone involved when it seems that no one down here is doing anything.
In another forum, I saw the infamous ‘manual’ to cross the border linked, as a ‘guide’ created by our goverment to teach people how to cross illegaly, when in fact it was created exactly with the opposite in mind (Almost every page tells you ‘if you try, you will die’), in Mexican news, the news is not that americans are against ‘illegal’ immigrants but against Mexicans (and the plight of the illegal immigrants is played up a lot. You can imagine I’m not exactly popular at college for being against them). It’s very hard to have the two sides of the coin.
And of course, there’s the cultural barrier. As for instance:
Although I suppose the fact that Cinco de Mayo actually has to do with the Mexican army beating the crap out of a small French army
Which is totally false, since it’s not about ‘beating the crap out of a small French army’ but about the ONLY battle in the history of the Mexican army that we won.
Yes. Our army is pathetic. We know. Want to hear about how our independence was managed by the Spain army? Or our time as part of the French empire? Or even better, how in September 13 we celebrate how the American army effectively killed a bunch of defensless kids?
Yes. Our army is pathetic. We know.
In fairness, the 300 Spartans probably would not have looked all that great if they’d been led by Antonio López de Santa Anna.
My only question is why they kept bringing him back. That guy demonstrated the Peter Principle like few others.
A side comment about the number of Mexican flags in the protests. As one of the protesters, let me offer this: they are not proof that our allegiance is to another country. They are proof that we love and honor our motherland, even though she might have…failed us, in some ways. But we also love and honor our adoptive land – and that’s why you see American flags at the protests as well. You are allowed to honor both your father *and* your mother. Asking us to “choose” one or the other is completely unnecessary.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at May 2, 2006 05:12 PM
Well I didn’t mean you. I meant those OTHER guys. I LIKE you.
I like you as well. But, if I put my foot in it, someone ought to call me on it. Fair’s fair. If I can’t stand the heat, I have no business in the kitchen.
But don’t feel bad–I just read a columist who said the same thing, only about the price of gas. “If gas prices double so will the price of goods transported to market!”
Now HE’S an idiot!
That reminds me of a network television news report a few years ago where the correspondent described what you would pay if you drove your car to the gas station with an empty tank.
I remember thinking, “If I could drive my car on an empty tank, the gas station is the last place I’d go!!!!!”
Posted by: Adalisa at May 2, 2006 05:53 PM
Yes. Our army is pathetic. We know. Want to hear about how our independence was managed by the Spain army? Or our time as part of the French empire? Or even better, how in September 13 we celebrate how the American army effectively killed a bunch of defensless kids?
Well, sure, but not so I can laugh at you. I like learning as much as I can about other countries, the better to understand the world in which I live.
I’ve bookmarked your comics-related blog. Feel free to e-mail me via my Web site if the mood strikes you. I’ve enjoyed learning from you and would welcome the opportunity to learn more.
To deal with the economic aspects of illegal immigration would require Americans to enforce labor laws, which seems to me a capitalist country like America would find objectionable.
“It’s very hard to have the two sides of the coin.”
Tell me about it.
today is Israel’s independence day. We won more battles than we lost, but some feel bad about that. I guess you can’t win.
Even in Israel, a Jewish country, some people celebrate St. Patrick’s day, at least in bars.
I suspect that in states where there are more Irish than mexicans St Patrick days is bigger than Cinco de Mayo.
I suppose with any national group that emigrated to the US except WASPs there is or was a question of double loyalty, since they all tend or tended to maintain connection with their old country (although nowadays modern communication makes it even easier), and since most of them did not come to the US because of a love for the country as much as for economic reasons. Surprisingly, with few exceptions, this does not seem to have ever been an actual problem for the US. Even the Japanese were apparently not really a threat during WWII. Somehow, immigrants seem to develop an American patriotism despite everything.
Overworm: Also, if your ancestry is Italian, do you agree that all Italian-Americans should be deported because without Italian-Americans there would be no mafia?
Luigi Novi: No, but I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing some Italian-Americans deported. Y’know, like, those who made that piece-of-šhìŧ show The Sopranos the hit.
And while yer at it, deport the non-Italians who watch that show and say that it’s a “realistic” at Italian-Americans living in New Jersey. 🙂
You know, some of you are going to want to throw rocks at me for what I’m about to write: Let them come and work. But don’t let them get screwed over and not get paid a decent wage or get health care.
Also don’t let them send the money back to Mexico or China (Ah, some of you forgot about China, didn’t you?) Let them bring the whole fmaily over here.
See this is the catch we’re all missing: Fox (Not the network, the Il President) WANTS these people to come here and work and send money BACK to Mexico so their familes will buy Mexican goods or goods sold in Mexico. This will give him the tax money to build the infrastructure that wil make Mexico a world power, while at the same time keeping his best and brightest in Mexico.
On the flip side, Bush and pals want this cheep, undocumented work force so they can explote them, not pay taxes on them, and just screw them over. Their the one’s really breaking the laws and they KNOW it, but will the get punished? NO!!!
So let’s not let them divide us, people.
Oh and PS: “I’m tired of people saying this administration (BUSH) is resuffiling the deck chairs on the Titanic. That implies that their sinking. This administration is soaring, so really their resuffling the deck chairs on the Hendinberg.”- Stephen Colbert.
Josh, with all due respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
If there’s any president more incompentent than Bush, it is Chente Fox. The man (and his cabinet) wouldn’t be able to think that far away, especially when he’s so busy trying to cater to Bush’s whims (Except for one. The one that made me respect Fox a little bit).
Mexican people don’t usually buy Mexican goods. We (and yes, I’m guilty of that too) buy in Walmart, drink at Starbucks, eat at McDonalds. Even Mexican stores carry Coca-cola, Kellogs, and american brands.
Which are a lot more expensive, because we have to pay taxes to the USA to get them here (The TLC -Free Commerce Treaty- kind of screwed us) and the funny thing? Many are done with raw materials produced here. Only that we (the country) never see that money. (Also, our presidents have a curious habit of never leaving money to create an infrastructure. We don’t call Carlos Salinas ‘He who most not be named’ just for kicks)
Bill, thanks. I’ll be emailing you. I’m always a bit shy on my first… two years and a half in any internet forum, so thank you so much for the warm welcome.
Adalisa –
Which is totally false, since it’s not about ‘beating the crap out of a small French army’ but about the ONLY battle in the history of the Mexican army that we won.
Well, to be fair, the Mexican army won at the Alamo, too.
But it was more about my attempt to show that if Americans knew that Cinco de Mayo was about beating the snot out of the French, more Americans would probably join in the celebrations.
I guess I didn’t get that across very well. 🙂
Adalisa –
Josh, with all due respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’d have to agree.
Billions of dollars are being sent back to Mexico every year, money which, even in the short term, should be making a difference.
But nothing has changed; Vicente Fox is as corrupt as ever.
MrPonceMan –
Asking us to “choose” one or the other is completely unnecessary.
If you’re going to come here, work here, live here, and expect to stay here for the rest of your life, then I’d say that, yes, in the long run it is certainly necessary, whether you strive for citizenship or not.
But then, that’s exactly what citizenship does anyways: it asks you to choose your new country over your home land.
Shall we build a heavily-armed wall there, too, and pìšš øff our other neighbors, on the off-chance that another terrorist might try to repeat the attempt?
How does that begin to relate to the situation with Mexico, seeing as how the individual was caught?
He was caught almost a hundred miles south of the border, when he was pulled over for speeding. A drug dog hit on his car, but it turned out the dog was reacting to the unusual smell of the TNT he was carrying. (Apparently, his plan was to blow up the Space Needle during the ’03 New Year celebration. It wouldn’t have worked, though – don’t think he was aware of how thoroughly the spire is covered in pyrotechnics experts just before New Year’s Eve…)
Incidentally, from my observations here just north of the border with Mexico, the big difference between Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick’s Day is that instead of the beer being green, it’s called “cerveza”.
I may be dangerously close to going off on a tangent here, but I, personally, am more concerned with pinheads still flying the confederate flag than anybody waving the Mexican flag around at a rally.
Granted, it doesn’t exactly help their cause any, but I figure it’s a relatively minor concern…
-Rex Hondo-
It was a mile back in the conversation, but…
Craig said
John –
This English-Only crap is that – crap.
No, it isn’t crap, because nobody is saying “English only”.
They’re saying “English should be primary”.
Bush has said that no one should sing the national anthem in any language except English. That is not English primary. That is English only. He is the President, and the assumed leader of the GOP, so unless any Republicans prominently speak out and say they disagree with them, I have to assume the entire GOP are on his side on that.
If you’re coming here and don’t want to learn English, then you really don’t belong here,
It is a simple fact, that after a certain age, it is extremely difficult to learn a new language. This has nothing to do with desire, or love of a country. Our brains just aren’t as receptive to learning new languages as an adult.
Why insist someone doesn’t belong here just because they are too old to learn a new language?
There’s also an issue of the length of time it takes to learn a language. Even if a new American is learning the language, they may not be proficient in it enough. If English is the “official” language, and documents need to be filled out in English, etc etc, this penalizes the New Americans in that period of time before they know the language.
John –
For the record, the French government commissioned an English translation of their national anthem.
And there are plenty of good reasons why this is America, not France.
Some leader of some Conservataive Think Tank came up with the brilliant quote regarding the Spanish National Anthem, “You don’t think the French would allow an English version of their anthem, do you, of course not, neither should we!” That was what I was referencing. The French not only allowed an English version, they commissioned one.
I suppose the difference here is that the French government actually, as you say, commissioned it.
Nobody commissioned this Spanish-language version of our national anthem.
Something tells me that our current government has no desire to commission one. As I mentioned above, Bush has said the anthem should only be sung in English. So, no, that isn’t the difference. The difference is that our current government is opposed to any foreign language versions of the anthem, whether it is written by a Brit, or by an American, by a Democrat, or a Republican. English Only.
Bush has said that no one should sing the national anthem in any language except English. That is not English primary. That is English only. He is the President, and the assumed leader of the GOP, so unless any Republicans prominently speak out and say they disagree with them, I have to assume the entire GOP are on his side on that.
That’s a big assumption. The ENTIRE GOP? Please. Does Condi Rice count as prominent enough? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/30/AR2006043000467.html) I don’t think even BUSH believes that, since Jon Secada sang the Star-Spangled Banner in Spanish at the 2001 presidential inaugural.
Note that this was the actual anthem, not the one being played now with additional lyrics (“Nuestro Himno”).
“I think the National Anthem ought to be sung in English.” He might not believe it, but he did say it. No he didn’t say ‘only’, but since it was in reference to the Spanish version, and his response wasn’t “I don’t think this versioin is appropriate.” Or something similar. One must conclude that he feels any translations are in poor taste.
Yes, Condi Rice is a member of the GOP. And that quote distances herself from Bush’s statement.
I did phrase my statement poorly. I don’t assume all the GOP agree with all of Bush’s statements. But I do assume that silence=agreement on any issue that is controversial enough to get this play in the newspapers. This rule of thumb goes for any president of any political party.
It should also be noted that any translation of any national anthem, if it manages to stay in tune, is going to take liberties with the text. I can’t imagine that the Spanish national anthem you refer to is a perfect translation. if it is, it’s a work of genius.
“In a similar vein, can we start calling companies that knowlingly hire illegal immigrants illegal companies?”
How about “company operating illegally”?
“I’m not trying to protect them, just trying to respect them.”
To mean something, respect must be earned. And you don’t earn it by breaking the law right off the bat.
“What’s wrong with ‘illegal immigrants’.”
That implies an immigration process. But in their case, it is one which they have willfully ignored or deliberately avoided. I know about immigration. My girlfriend is a foreigner and the immigration process is a royal PAIN. But we also know that it’s the LAW and we don’t ignore it merely because it is inconvenient. We can work to change it, but not just pretend it doesn’t exist for us. If we did then we’d better be prepared to accept the consequences. Illegal aliens break the law getting in, and then complain when they are caught and penalized for it.
When someone steals because welfare payments isn’t enpough to feed their kids, does the system ‘forgive’ them? Not usually. Why should illegals be treated any differently?
“I think the National Anthem ought to be sung in English.” He might not believe it, but he did say it.
So did Ted Kennedy on Hardball.